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From: flee@cse.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Subject: PCWC 20 results
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 23:30:34 GMT
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Congratulations to Chris Solnordal, who won with
	Untangle our laces with childish amusement (8)

Chris is unable to moderate, but Jake Bergmann, the second place
winner, has agreed to moderate PCWC 21.

I'm rushing this report out the door, before I leave town for the
weekend.  Sometime next week I'll post some analysis of this scoring
system and a few variants.

A few voters mentioned that they found this method of voting easier.
Five of the twelve voters did not rate their own clue.

I'm happy with the voting system, but the scoring system could
probably use some improvement.

I tested a few other scoring systems, including converting the ballots
to the old system.  There's a little shuffling of rankings, but the
results are actually pretty stable.  However, the top four clues do
get shuffled, and it's something of a value judgement which system
best reflects voter preference.  I'll write more about this later.

Anyway, here's the clue I wrote when I picked the word CAROUSEL:

Party wildly chases last trail ride in park (8)
	party wildly = CAROUSE
	last traiL = L
	ride in park = definition

And here are all the clues, their scores, and voters' comments, listed
in descending order.  Authors are given for the top half.

----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	Chris Solnordal <Chris.Solnordal@dmpe.csiro.au>
8) Untangle our laces with childish amusement (8)
	 8: mean 7.34; sd 1.26; median 7.00; n 11;  ............411.2.3..

Not bad, but "with" doesn't fit the cryptic reading very well.

A pleasant little clue; nice use of "amusement", good cryptic

Very nice surface reading, this and clue 9 were easily the 
best of the "our laces" clues.

The first, and by far the best, clue from the people who had trouble
with their laces.  This clue has an incredibly clear surface read,
and an excellent defn.

A solid cryptic, a good pun (on "amusement"), and
an appealing surface reading.  I preferred clue #19 on
the same subject;  but there's little to choose.

Solid anagram clue.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	bergmann@billerica.applicon.SLB.COM (Jake Bergmann)
18) Silent night cloaks purpose of horse ride (8)
	18: mean 7.12; sd 2.02; median 8.00; n 11;  ......1.1...2..12.4..

Would have scored higher but for
Silent Night's being an *example* of a carol.

Very good.  The carol is Silent Night with a capital N, though.
Still, I give this one a high placing.

Not much fault to be found with this clue, although (surface-wise)
I would think that, unless we're dealing with a particularly quiet
horse, the night wouldn't be too silent.

see comments for clue 1.

A very good surface, and an excellent container indicator.  This ties
for first with clues 1 and 8.

Excellent duplicitous surface reading, and slightly obscure 
but justified definition.  

Silent Night might be a giveaway for carol, otherwise
very nice with good straight reading.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	hollyma@cray.com (Mike Holly)
28) A whirligig of drunken revelry before the start of Lent (8)
	28: mean 7.05; sd 2.01; median 6.00; n 11;  ........1.2.3...1.211

Second place for a very nice and animated clue.

Good clue!  A very sensible surface reading, and a combination of
uncommon but legitimate definitions of "whirligig" and "carouse."

Again, a noun phrase is being used where a verb is necessary for
CAROUSE.  The surface is not bad, however.

I like the surface reading, but the definition is a little 
strained.  Still, the "start of Lent" is a nice disguise for
a normally dubious "first letter" clue.

Excellent surface reading.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	tomd@cayman.amd.com (Tom Deneau)
11) Song describing use for revolver in the park? (8)
	11: mean 6.92; sd 2.76; median 7.00; n 12;  1.......1...3.2...3.2

Made me think of Sondheim's _Assassins_.

Brilliant!  A perfectly smooth surface reading, flawless cryptic
construction, and not one but two twists -- "revolver in the park"
and "describing" meaning surrounding.  First place - 10 out of 10.
Incidentally, the clue writer might have done better to explain the
"describing" twist -- some readers might not get it.

Nicely deceptive use of "describing" and "revolver"; I would have 
preferred that a reasonable synonym for "use" be used.

I don't think "describing" is accurate enough here; but I like
the definition.

A pretty good clue, except for the surface.  The defn. is nice.

This is the best of several clues that to me make a 
fundamental mistake:  a pun on the definition that 
doesn't fit the surface reading.  (I believe 5, 9, 17, 21, and 
24 are other examples.)  In this example, the pun almost 
stands alone ("A revolver in the park? (8)") but it lacks
logic to relate it to the rest of the clue.  Pity, because
the cryptic ("describing") is unusually well crafted.

Creative definition, and a plus for surface.

Deceptively simple - it's my idea of a great clue
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	Mark Brader <msb@sq.com>
16) First sign of life after party -- it causes dizziness (8)
	16: mean 6.43; sd 2.44; median 7.00; n 11;  1.........2.2.1.311..

I still like my clue better than almost all the ones I see here.

I don't quite buy the "sign = letter" equation; I have mixed feelings
about "party" corresponding to "carouse" --- as a verb, party is 
rather non-standard; as a noun, carouse is pretty obscure.

A nice straightforward cryptic, although the defn. is not all that
good.  However, the surface is not bad.

One normally takes points off for "first letter" cryptics, 
but this one reads so well!  

I didn't like sign for letter.  Otherwise, clever.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	bacz@tellurid.dr.att.com
19) Our laces got tangled on merry-go-round. (8)
	19: mean 6.25; sd 1.94; median 6.00; n 11;  ....1.....3.2.12..2..

Good, but not as good as the very similar #23 and #30, because of the
"on" and the "got".

Here's those tangled laces again; see number 8 for a better approach.

More people who have trouble with their laces!  This one has a poor
surface [who ever had their laces get tangled on the merry-go-round?],
and a boring [at least by the time this contest was over] anagram,
but is otherwise structurally sound.

The winner, to me.  Sound cryptic (if straightforward), no 
unnecessary or obscure puns, and a perfectly sensible surface
reading.

Technically sound, but too easy.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	bcs@sc.harris.com (Brian Spollen)
13) Amusement which turns occasion into a song (8)
	13: mean 6.12; sd 2.62; median 6.00; n 11;  1.......1.2.211...2.1

"Use" for "occasion" is awkward, but otherwise this is not too bad.

"Occasion" is a bit of a stretch as a synonym for "use", but
otherwise good

A good cryptic, and a good defn., but the surface needs work.

A surface reading that is not quite compelling enough
(why would an amusement make a song out of an occasion?);
but bonus points for a good cryptic.

I like the definition.

Very smooth flow coming off the definition.  Excellent job.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	mdm@usna.navy.mil (Mark Meyerson)
30) Carnival ride tangles our laces (8)
	30: mean 6.08; sd 1.87; median 6.00; n 11;  ......1.1.2.311..1..1

Plain, simple, and flawless, just like #23.

What better way to finish up the clue list than one more version
of the "our laces" anagram; again, see clue 8 for the "best of breed."

Wait a minute, didn't I just see this clue under 23?

The final person who had problems with shoelaces.  Thank God I won't
have to see any more people with tangled laces!  :->  This clue is
almost identical to #23, and both have a poor surface: How can the
carnival ride itself entangle somebody's shoelaces?

A good clear rendering of a popular theme.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	archmage@vnet.ibm.com (Clayton Colwell)
23) A carnival ride entangled our laces (8)
	23: mean 5.89; sd 1.78; median 5.00; n 11;  ......1.1.4.1.11.11..

Plain, simple, and flawless.

Those laces just keep getting tangled, but I still prefer clue 8.

Carnival ride is too obvious a definition.

The fourth setter who had trouble with shoelaces.  This clue is
almost identical to #30, and both have a poor surface: How can the
carnival ride itself entangle somebody's shoelaces?

A good surface reading in a sound clue, but there were better
renderings.

Probably too easy, though not as easy as 19.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	vmn@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Virginia Norling)
29) Wake in a state for a fun ride (8)
	29: mean 5.75; sd 1.36; median 6.00; n 11;  ......1.1.2.312.1....

"Cal" again; see #4.  Surface reading awkward.

More succinct than the similar clue 4, but the surface is pretty bland.

Not nearly as good as the other clue which used this cryptic [#4].
The surface just doesn't work as well for me.

Except that the surface reading is a bit empty, 
the cryptic is sound and not needlessly obscure.

The double jump "state" to "California" to "CAL" is too
much to ask.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	tsch0011@gold.tc.umn.edu (Kevin Tschetter)
2) Horses around endlessly before carnival's end?! (8)
	 2: mean 5.64; sd 2.37; median 5.70; n 10;  1.......1.211.2.1.1..

The &lit definition doesn't work at all for me.

A proper cryptic; however, "before carnival's end" seems a little
muddled or unnecessary in the straight-definition reading.

Nice clue, but I'm a little unsure about the "?!"!

A good attempt, but unfortunately, the defn. falls a little flat,
and the surface reading sounds a little stilted.  The cryptic part
is good, however.

The clue stands or falls on the surface reading, which must
redeem an awkward (but sound) cryptic construction.
Unfortunately, while the twin meaning of "horses around" is 
nice, the introduction of "carnival" is belabored (its "end" is
meaningful only to the cryptic).

I love &lit clues.  The negative here is the slight
indirection of figuring out what "horses around"
translates to and then doing the subtraction of the S.

"around" messes up the definition, keeps it from seeming like
a noun.  Near miss.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	Merlyn LeRoy <merlyn@digidb.com>
1) Noel has use for a turntable (8)
	 1: mean 5.51; sd 2.91; median 6.00; n 11;  1...1.1.1.1.2..1..3..

Nice, but the carol is The First Noel, not Noel.

Okay, but it would have been better without the literal "use"

Since "Noel" is being used as the name of a carol, I prefer
"Noel, for example," or "Noel, perhaps,". Same comment applies
to clues 5 and 18.

A wonderful clue!  Has a very good surface read, a fresh defn., 
and a good use of CARO[USE]L.  The double meaning of Noel makes
this one of my favorites.

The cryptic is solidly constructed, but the surface meaning
is a touch obscure.  The pun on Noel (a carol and a name) 
counteracts the usual prejudice against proper names.  Above
average.

Use of name slight minus unless it is meaningful
in the straight reading.  At least name is not
part of an anagram
-------------------------------------------------------------
From:	John Poliness <john_poliness@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au>
17) Roundabout lights beginning to end the revellers' activity. (8)
	17: mean 5.33; sd 1.65; median 5.00; n 11;  ......1.311.3.1...1..

Awkward surface reading, and "lights beginning" is poor.

This seems a little too easy --- "roundabout" used as an adjective
would have concealed things better.

A poor surface.  The phrase revellers' activity also describes a
noun, or at most a gerund, and not the verb CAROUSE.

Where is the surface meaning?  Why 'roundabout lights'?

reveller's activity should be "carousing"
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	Ralph Kennedy <kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu>
9) Redo our laces to ensure a stately carriage (8)
	 9: mean 5.30; sd 1.46; median 5.00; n 11;  ......2.1.3.2.21.....

Both the definition and the surface reading depend on obscure readings
of "carriage".

It's hard not to compare this with number 8, so I won't:  a 
lesser anagram indicator, and "stately carriage" doesn't convey
"carousel" to me

The second clue with the 'our laces' theme.  This one has a poor
surface, and a defn. that leaves much to be desired.

The cryptic is certainly straightforward;  and 
the surface reading almost hangs together;  but
the definition's pun ("stately carriage" as merry-go-round
and also as posture) is a little strained.

Stately carriage wasn't in my dictionary.

Oh, you found a less common definition of "carousel."  Full
credit, ... but "redo" is not ideal.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From:	Mark Laventhal <msl@hpcvusj.cv.hp.com>
15) Find employment in joyful song as carnival attraction (8)
	15: mean 4.89; sd 1.94; median 5.00; n 11;  1.....1.1.312.11.....

Awkward surface reading.

In the surface reading, "in joyful song" doesn't make sense to me;
cryptically okay.

Carnival attraction is too obvious a definition.

A terrible surface which detracts from the entire clue.

This clue's surface reading almost takes off (but why would a 
"joyful" song be a carnival attraction?).  The cryptic
decomposition is perfectly sound.  Above average.
----------------------------------------------------------------
21) Lou races around roundabout? (8)
	21: mean 4.81; sd 2.21; median 5.00; n 11;  1...1...2.3.11.11....

Nice and simple.

Another gratuitous proper noun in an anagram; I'm not particularly 
impressed.  The surface reads okay.

An excellent clue, as it has a very good surface.

Why a roundabout?  Why not a merry-go-round?  And who is Lou?
At least the surface reading is evocative.

The proper name Lou doesn't add to the straight reading
and kind of gives away the anagram.

Some points off for the proper name.
----------------------------------------------------------------
7) About, around and goes about
   The French-American roundabout (8)
	 7: mean 4.69; sd 2.36; median 5.45; n 10;  1.1.....2.1.2.3......

I hated it, but didn't mark it down for unsoundness.

Surface reading is ugly, "around and goes" is obscure at best,
and the second "about" has no function.

The first part of the surface is kind of muddled (perhaps my
poetic license has expired).  The cryptic part is good, though.

American roundabout is too obvious a definition.

An interesting clue, but it has a number of things I didn't like:
'About' is used twice in the first line, the rhyme of 'about' with
'roundabout', and 'French-American' where I would be likely to use
'Franco-American'.

A clue with good construction yet
a touch obscure for most of us.
An extra point for meter, though.

I like the rhyming.

If this were written as prose it would defy comprehension.
Nice rhyme and scansion, though.
----------------------------------------------------------------
14) Luggage distributer described by Ms. Channing: Apply within. (8)
	14: mean 4.47; sd 2.36; median 5.00; n 11;  1...2...1131..1...1..

Downgraded for the use of a proper name, and the awkward
last part in the surface reading.
I thought "distributer" was a misspelling at first, but my
dictionary does list it as a variant.

A pretty terse job description, but otherwise okay.

If I had a clue about who Carol Channing was, I would have liked 
this clue better.

A nice new defn., but I don't like the use of famous people in
cryptic clues in this manner [ie. having to come up with the
name].  The surface is also a little rough.

I don't like proper names.  This clue reads like an American
cryptic crossword clue -- too straightforward, not clever.

Good definition. Straight reading a bit choppy.

This surface reading is very disjointed.
----------------------------------------------------------------
4) Wake up in a state, everything spinning round and round.(8)
	 4: mean 4.45; sd 1.98; median 5.25; n 10;  1...1.1...214........

California was formerly usually "Calif." and now "CA"; "Cal." is rare.
The definition is also poor.

The straight definition seems too unclear.

"Cal" for state is stretching it a bit ... California should
be just "Ca".

A good clue, although CAL for 'a state' might be a bit of a reach.
The surface is not as bad as it appears at first.

A state = CAL?, definition is imprecise.

The double jump "state" to "California" to "CAL" is too
much to ask.
----------------------------------------------------------------
5) Good King Wenceslas has to take snow inside to have a fair bit of fun (8)
	 5: mean 4.27; sd 2.05; median 4.00; n 11;  1...1.1.3.2.2...1....

Good King Wenceslas is only an *example* of a carol,
and taking snow is an *example* of drug use.

The drug-using reference is rather obscure to me.

The surface reading seems slightly awkward.  I thought the "to
take snow" part was creative but perhaps too indirect.

see comments for clue 1.

A very good clue, with a nice surface read, and another fresh defn.
The only thing I don't like is the clue 'to take snow' for USE.

Each of the pieces of the cryptic hangs together, but I must say
the surface reading escapes me.  It's too contorted a cryptic to
justify any additional obscurity.  And "a fair bit of fun" is a 
gratuitous pun.

Unusual and interesting straight reading.
Indicator for USE is pretty hard.  A bit long.
----------------------------------------------------------------
25) Awaken in chlorine, whirling (8)
	25: mean 4.06; sd 2.14; median 4.00; n 11;  1...1.2.213.......1..

That's not a definition, it's an allusion.  Stop that, people!

A more truthful surface would be "Awaken in chlorine, dying"; 
I don't buy the "whirling = def" part because they are not the 
carousel is neither a verb nor an adjective.

A very poor surface, and a poor defn. to boot.

The surface reading is evocative, I suppose, but not meaningful.

Strange straight reading.  Definition not precise.

Not much of a definition, and the surface is a little bizarre.
----------------------------------------------------------------
27) Monica, rouse Liam a little from the roundabout (8)
	27: mean 4.00; sd 1.86; median 4.00; n 11;  1...1.2.2.3.1.1......

Two proper names, an "into" that doesn't really fit, and an
indifferent surface reading.

The "rouse...from the roundabout" part doesn't seem overly meaningful.

I've never heard the name Liam, although I'll assume it does exist.
However, the surface is poor [rouse a little?], and 'a little'
doesn't imply a hidden word to me.

This clue is an example of why proper names are frowned upon.  
To be sure, a point extra for a valiant (and unique) attempt
at a container.

Strange straight reading.

Points off for not one, but two proper names.
----------------------------------------------------------------
26) Teutonic Charlie has no use for fairground ride. (8)
	26: mean 3.68; sd 2.41; median 4.00; n 11;  2.1...2.1.21..2......

A little complicated, but nice surface reading and solidly constructed.
But isn't the German Charles really Karl?

"Teutonic Charlie" is a suspiciously lousy nickname.  Besides, the 
really Germanic form of Charles is "Karl."

I don't like "Teutonic Charlie" for "Carl" --- maybe that's 
because I don't know enough German. Also, unless it's a hidden
clue, using part of the clue ("use") itself in the indirect
part is a no-no.

The more I hear 'Teutonic Charlie', the more it grates on my ears.
But regardless of how bad it sounds, that doesn't matter, as it is
flat-out wrong: the German word for Charles is not CARL, but KARL.

This clue is attempting to get some mileage out of a Germanic
disdain for fun.  It doesn't work;  too indirect.  But the 
cryptic construction ("no use") is particularly good, and no
pun on the definition is necessary.

Why wouldn't "Teutonic Charlie" be "Karl"?
----------------------------------------------------------------
6) Horses also cure revolutions (8)
	 6: mean 3.64; sd 1.61; median 4.00; n 11;  1...1.3.2.3.1........

That's not a definition, it's an allusion.

I get nothing sensible out of the surface reading; "revolutions"
is separated from "horses" by unrelated words, so it doesn't 
work as a straight definition.

Nice anagram, though I'm not sure if revolutions can be cured.

A poor surface read.  How do horses cure revolutions?  The defn.
is also ill-defined.

The nub of a good idea, but a somewhat flawed construction.  
And the surface meaning is awkward.

Couldn't quite parse this one.

"Revolution of horses"; the definition is not supposed to be
interrupted by other words.
----------------------------------------------------------------
24) Excitement, we hear, after many a fair object (8) 
	24: mean 3.15; sd 1.95; median 3.00; n 11;  2...113.1.1.2........

"Arousel" is not a word and cannot be used in a soundalike!
On top of that, the surface reading is poor.  Excitement after an object?

"A fair object" is fair, but I don't hear what you do:  in "arousal"
the stress is on the second syllable, wherase the third syllable 
receives the stress in "carousel"

When you use homophones, you have to use real words.  AROUSEL just
doesn't cut it.

Another needless punning definition.  Puns without logic are
merely obscure.

Many = C?

Homonyms are better if they're not invented words.  "C" = "many"???
----------------------------------------------------------------
3) Sour Alec led the chase,
   merrily going round and round. (8)
	 3: mean 3.07; sd 1.55; median 3.00; n 11;  1...3.3.2.1.1........

That's not a definition, it's an allusion.

I would like to have seen a solid anagram indicator.  Using an
arbitrary proper noun in an anagram is frowned upon (in my book).
Who is this Alec?  And just how merry is a sour person likely to be?
The straight definition really needs to be something resembling a noun.

The definition part is too much of a giveaway.

A poor defn., and a stilted anagram.  Sour Alec?!  Also, I don't
like 'led the chase' as an anagram indicator.

Everything is nice about this clue except the anagram, which
doesn't make sense (and isn't well signalled).  Pity.

It's difficult to find the anagram indicator.  "Going round
and round" can't qualify, since it's part of the definition
(which has the wrong part of speech.)  Try to avoid proper names.
----------------------------------------------------------------
20) Around, a right around you, the french spinner first turned! (8)
	20: mean 3.04; sd 1.36; median 3.00; n 11;  1...2.411.2..........

"around you" doesn't yield "O U";
as for the &lit, it sounds more like a boxing match.

Overly complex; the &lit is indeed vague; "spinner first" is poor.

I'm afraid I prefer vague --- I'm very confused by the surface.  Also, 
you took a little more liberty with "around" (the second one) becoming
"round = O" than is to my taste.

I find the clue just a little too vague; also, I'm not sure
about "around" for "c". Is that standard?

The setter had it right when he said the &lit. was vague.  The
cryptic and the surface both leave a great deal to be desired.

Well, the cryptic all falls together, I suppose.

OK, it's an &lit, but I don't like you = U

I don't understand the surface reading either on its own or as
a definition.
----------------------------------------------------------------
10) French salt where coach whirls around (8)
	10: mean 2.99; sd 2.05; median 3.00; n 11;  2.1.1.2.3.1...1......

"whirls around" indicating reversal can't also be the definition.

Oh, right, everyone knows the French for "coach".  Sheesh.

My French extends only to the "sel" part; you've got "whirls around"
doing double duty without being a proper &lit; the surface reading
makes no sense at all to me.

Pardon my French! I'm not averse to, for example, "the French" for
"le", but this is taking it way too far.

The only thing stopping me from giving this a zero is that I see
nothing factually wrong with it.  'Whirls around' is a poor defn.,
solvers shouldn't be expected to know this much French, the surface
is awful, and 'whirls around' doesn't really imply that the order of
the words needs to be switched.

A somewhat obscure cryptic is redeemed by its 
novelty, but not enough to justify a strained
surface reading.

Straight reading strange.

The rules usually limit foreign words to _very_ common ones.
No surface meaning here, either.
----------------------------------------------------------------
22) A medieval tournament: half chaos amidst merciless jousts. (8)
	22: mean 2.62; sd 1.72; median 3.00; n 12;  3...1.411.2..........

Half of CHAOS is AOS?  What do they teach in schools these days?
I don't see how "jousts" tells me to intersperse the letters.

Decent surface reading, but poor construction.  AOS is 3/5 of CHAOS,
not a half -- even in medieval times they knew the difference! :-)
And "jousts" is ridiculously obscure.

The "medieval tournament" is a splendid start, and the surface reads
well, but it goes downhill from there: "aos" is 60 percent of "chaos", 
not half, and I'm afraid I fail to see the purpose of "jousts" in the
cryptic part.

Dreadful!  First of all, AOS is 60% of CHAOS, not 'half'.  Second,
if you're going to separate the letters of the previous word [CRUEL],
you need a letter to go between the E and the L.  And it certainly
doesn't help that the defn. and surface are also poor.

Novelty points for an unusual definition, which almost fits the
rest of the clue.  But "jousts" is contrived, and "half chaos" is
a flaw.

How to know half chaos = AOS?  Spreading a word amidst
another is something I hadn't seen but could be interesting.

Which letters of "chaos"?  And I don't see anything in "amidst"
or "jousts" that would suggest that abstruse reordering theme.

Far too obscure 
----------------------------------------------------------------
12) A southeast Asian expletive is translated as an amusement park ride (8)
	12: mean 2.49; sd 1.57; median 2.50; n 10;  1.211.2.111..........

Obscure indirect anagram, and I don't care for the surface reading.

The dreaded indirect anagram!  You can't do that:  you must use
"Lao curse" directly (otherwise, there's too many possibilities for
the solver to attempt).  Major points lost for that.

"South-east Asian" for "Lao" is a little obscure; what is a "Lao"
anyway? I thought natives of Laos were Laotians or something 
like that.

The cryptic is certainly sound, but the whole thing reads
too woodenly for my taste.  

Indirect anagram.

This is an indirect anagram.
----------------------------------------------------------------
