From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Feb 25 01:11:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA40879 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:11:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:11:24 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Testy test Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Feb 25 13:31:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA43043 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:31:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:31:07 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38B652E6.12DA3C71@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > DX=DE > > EBP=Base of 64K Z80 CPU space > > ESI=General purpose > > EDI=# Of T-States left to execute before exiting > It seems a lot my thoughts. Have I told you that I really like your dialect of English? Even though is has quite a few flaws, I completely understand what you're saying! > > > > 830d95b3: 83ef0a sub edi,byte +0xa (10 T-States) > > > > 830d95b6: 0f8835000000 js near 0x830d95f1 > Yes I understand this. You make an instruction by intruction timming control. And it's architected so that later on I can take it out, or group it by blocks. That's handled by the source layer, and the target just generates the epilogue code as it is instructed. > > > > 830d95c6: 9e sahf > > > > 830d95c7: ffe6 jmp esi > Have you tried to do block chainning? I think in this block the flags > are not needed ;) I think you mean "depth traversal", but yes, that is the next step. It still doesn't solve the problem where it's jumping in to the middle of a recompiled block, though. As soon as the recompiler is 100% working, when the recompiler encounters an address that hasn't been recompiled, it'll call itself with that address. > > the Sega Genesis sound CPU. IF you don't believe me, go in to any of the > > freeware emulators, muck up the timing tables on the base instruction set > > and watch the effect it has. It varies from nothing to catastrophic > > failure. > I'm not implemented an emulator yet I'm learning, and it's hard to > find good documentation about how a emulator works. Yes I have heared > about the accurary required for sound and some graphics, but I don't > know how much accuracy it's needed. At least with Galaga, Dig Dug, 1942, and Bosconian, those games require it to be 100% accurate, otherwise you wind up with little problems throughout the game. > Accuracy will come in to ways: > making a good count of the cycles spended and making the test of > number of cycles most often possible. I thinked that the one > important was the first one, and the second one could admit be little > more lazy (testing each 10, 20, 30 cycles, ouch ... , I have seen that > the Z80 is a slow machine that uses a lot of cycles per instruction, > perhaps I was thinking for a kind of RISC CPU's, sorry). Provided that nothing jumps in to a sequence of instructions and it's "Safe" to do that sort of optmiization, yes, that'd be a great solution, and in fact I'll probably have some sort of hint or "range" you can pass to the recompiler to indicate what are is and isn't safe to muck with timing-wise. The nice thing about my recompiler is that it's a linked list of instructions, and there's a tag associated with it that inicates it's timing code, with a generic way to alter it in to groups. > One comment, I think Sega Genesis Z80 wouldn't be the best processor > to be recompiled, I think that works runnig code from a little RAM > that is writed by the M68000, this is like self-modifying code (I'm > not sure about this ;) It's not self modifying code. The 68K puts instructions in shared RAM space of the Z80 but it doesn't actually write code for the Z80 to execute. > > The code is already running in about 40 different instructions and it's > > dead parallel in operation to my assembly core (which is *EXTREMELY* well > > debugged since I validated it against an ISA board with a Z80 on it). > Something about that. My project director ask me a lot of time about > testing. I tell him in the hard way ;) How do you (others emulator > programmers) do testing while developing a CPU core? You use your data books, watch lots and lots of traces of code executing, and pray you've got it right. ;-) When something isn't working and you don't know why, you go back over every instruction that's being executed and validate it against your references. > I will just move to your new list, so if you want you can answer me > there. One thing, it's your list but I would suggest than perhaps > could be a list not only for dynamic recompilation but to others > advanced emulation related topics. Not a bad idea. But I like the name. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Feb 28 01:08:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA54670 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BA3782.1B6833DD@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:53:22 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > Have I told you that I really like your dialect of English? Even though is > has quite a few flaws, I completely understand what you're saying! > Really? Thanks. > > > > > 830d95c6: 9e sahf > > > > > 830d95c7: ffe6 jmp esi > > > Have you tried to do block chainning? I think in this block the flags > > are not needed ;) > > I think you mean "depth traversal", but yes, that is the next step. It > still doesn't solve the problem where it's jumping in to the middle of a > recompiled block, though. > I don't know what you call "depth traversal", where have you find this term?. I call "block chaining" when a translated block simply transfers control to the next (or nexts if it has more than one exit point) without searches for the next block in any structure (in fact returns to the main loop). It's the name I have found in many documents. But I think you are using another approach. In each translated block (perhaps only direct jumps) you access a memory word to see if next block is translated and if it's you do a jump to it, true? I think now this is a kind of what I call "block chaining", but I thought in a direct jump writed on code first. I think that you could handle self-modifying code with this. Block chaining (as I thought it before) has great problem with self-modifying code, how to manage all blocks that directly jumps to an erased block. > > > You use your data books, watch lots and lots of traces of code executing, > and pray you've got it right. ;-) When something isn't working and you > don't know why, you go back over every instruction that's being executed > and validate it against your references. > Just what I thought. But my director wants some kind of methodology :) > > > I will just move to your new list, so if you want you can answer me > > there. One thing, it's your list but I would suggest than perhaps > > could be a list not only for dynamic recompilation but to others > > advanced emulation related topics. > > Not a bad idea. But I like the name. ;-) > Oh, it's a good name, yes. Victor Moya P.S. There isn't a --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Feb 28 01:15:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA54693 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:15:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BA3948.300A090E@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:00:56 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Something I missed before. I want thank that you posted an example about your Z80 recompiler and you helped me understand it. I find some mistakes I was making with dynamic recompilation. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Feb 28 01:38:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA54735 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:38:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:38:52 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38BA3782.1B6833DD@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Have I told you that I really like your dialect of English? Even though is > > has quite a few flaws, I completely understand what you're saying! > Really? Thanks. Hope we didn't miscommunicate - This is a compliment! > > I think you mean "depth traversal", but yes, that is the next step. It > > still doesn't solve the problem where it's jumping in to the middle of a > > recompiled block, though. > I don't know what you call "depth traversal", where have you find this > term?. Program flow depth traversal. Meaning taking code and going to all possible call points, effectively making a calltree. It's an old compiler term. > I call "block chaining" when a translated block simply > transfers control to the next (or nexts if it has more than one exit > point) without searches for the next block in any structure (in fact > returns to the main loop). The problem with the terminology here is that it doesn't represent what's going on. "Block chaining" to me instantly means a bunch of blocks chained together, but that's not really what's going on. "Block chaining" is a made up term that isn't really a good term - much the same way "driver" is not a good description (in emulation) for what a platform extension is. When talking about recompiling blocks, we should be talking about doing depth traversal, which means you keep calling yourself with any branch points. You're going down the depth of the call tree during recompilation. FWIW, This is a very, very common term used in disassemblers that attempt to create labels by analysis of the calltrees. > It's the name I have found in many > documents. But I think you are using another approach. In each > translated block (perhaps only direct jumps) you access a memory word > to see if next block is translated and if it's you do a jump to it, > true? Yes - for now. But in the future when the recompiler is completely finished, any terminal that I encounter that hasn't been compiled, the recompiler will call itself with that address, and the recompiled address will already be recompiled. Then the recompiler won't create any code to check to see if it's recompiled, it'll just jump directly to the block itself. > I think now this is a kind of what I call "block chaining", but > I thought in a direct jump writed on code first. I think that you > could handle self-modifying code with this. Block chaining (as I > thought it before) has great problem with self-modifying code, how to > manage all blocks that directly jumps to an erased block. Self modifying code isn't all that common anyway. Well, maybe not in the arcade video game world, but I would guess that home computers used quite a bit more of it. It's really not that big a concern. > > and pray you've got it right. ;-) When something isn't working and you > > don't know why, you go back over every instruction that's being executed > > and validate it against your references. > Just what I thought. But my director wants some kind of methodology :) Well, the above looks like a methodology, doesn't it? ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Feb 28 01:39:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA54744 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:39:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:39:30 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38BA3948.300A090E@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Something I missed before. I want thank that you posted an example > about your Z80 recompiler and you helped me understand it. I find > some mistakes I was making with dynamic recompilation. No prob. Once I get my recompiler to a stopping point (where it actually runs something), I'll post it to listmember for them to download and check out - a recompiler WIP. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Feb 28 03:08:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA55097 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 03:08:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BA5397.DE62567D@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:53:11 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > > > Have I told you that I really like your dialect of English? Even though is > > > has quite a few flaws, I completely understand what you're saying! > > Really? Thanks. > > Hope we didn't miscommunicate - This is a compliment! > > I would want to say I thank you that you think my english is good. But it seems it isn't so good :) > > Program flow depth traversal. Meaning taking code and going to all > possible call points, effectively making a calltree. It's an old compiler > term. > Ok, I get a book about compiler theory (in English) and I find it. I know what it's depth traversal, but the Spanish translation it's something different, this was the problem. > > > I call "block chaining" when a translated block simply > > transfers control to the next (or nexts if it has more than one exit > > point) without searches for the next block in any structure (in fact > > returns to the main loop). > > The problem with the terminology here is that it doesn't represent what's > going on. "Block chaining" to me instantly means a bunch of blocks chained > together, but that's not really what's going on. "Block chaining" is a > made up term that isn't really a good term - much the same way "driver" is > not a good description (in emulation) for what a platform extension is. > I think we have an understanding problem here :) The term 'chaining' is used in documents as Shade and Embra instruction-set simulators, which use dynamic compilation. And I think it's a good term (or perhaps my english is worst than I thought). Chaining means that translated blocks are linked together by a direct jump instruction. In Shade, Embra (and others) when a translated block ends his execution it does, ever, a jump to the main loop (called dispatch loop also). Then the main loop is the one which has to get the actual PC address, find the next translated block (or translate it) and do a jump at the begining of the translated block code. This is slow so an alternative they implement is 'chaining'. Take a look at Embra document to a better understanding (I think it's in Mul8 Vault, in dynarec.zip, if not try http://alabi.fib.upc.es/~e6706591/dynarec.zip it's a document named sigmetrics96-embra.ps). > > When talking about recompiling blocks, we should be talking about doing > depth traversal, which means you keep calling yourself with any branch > points. You're going down the depth of the call tree during recompilation. > Yes, if you do in another way, you couldn't begin to execute code. But I don't know what is going on to 'chaining'. > > FWIW, This is a very, very common term used in disassemblers that attempt > to create labels by analysis of the calltrees. > Yes I know, it was I didn't know the english term. > > > > > and pray you've got it right. ;-) When something isn't working and you > > > don't know why, you go back over every instruction that's being executed > > > and validate it against your references. > > Just what I thought. But my director wants some kind of methodology :) > > Well, the above looks like a methodology, doesn't it? ;-) > I think so, my director is the one who thinks different ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Feb 28 05:50:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA55555 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 05:50:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:37:31 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ok, I get a book about compiler theory (in English) and I find it. I know what >it's depth traversal, but the Spanish translation it's something different, this >was the problem. Actually I had the same problem. My English compiler book doesn't have the term, at least not in the register, and the German translation of the Dragon book I have is rather bad... Nowadays I almost always buy English technical literature but I bought the Dragon book before. >I think we have an understanding problem here :) The term 'chaining' is used in >documents as Shade and Embra instruction-set simulators, which use dynamic >compilation. And I think it's a good term (or perhaps my english is worst than I >thought). Chaining means that translated blocks are linked together by a direct >jump instruction. In Shade, Embra (and others) when a translated block ends his >execution it does, ever, a jump to the main loop (called dispatch loop also). Then >the main loop is the one which has to get the actual PC address, find the next >translated block (or translate it) and do a jump at the begining of the translated >block code. This is slow so an alternative they implement is 'chaining'. I had the same discussion with Neil because he likes to stick to the traditional terms and I read about that method in Shade and Embra first, so I took over their vocab. >Take a >look at Embra document to a better understanding (I think it's in Mul8 Vault, in >dynarec.zip, if not try http://alabi.fib.upc.es/~e6706591/dynarec.zip it's a >document named sigmetrics96-embra.ps). I think that the Shade document does a much better job explaining certain techniques, but I also have both listed on my dynarec page: http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/emulation/dynrcomp.htm >> Well, the above looks like a methodology, doesn't it? ;-) >I think so, my director is the one who thinks different ;) I think that's always the problem... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Feb 28 21:32:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA58462 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:32:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:32:51 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38BA5397.DE62567D@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Really? Thanks. > > Hope we didn't miscommunicate - This is a compliment! > I would want to say I thank you that you think my english is good. > But it seems it isn't so good :) It's "pretty good" though it isn't perfect, the dialect I find to be quite cool! > > Program flow depth traversal. Meaning taking code and going to all > > possible call points, effectively making a calltree. It's an old compiler > > term. > Ok, I get a book about compiler theory (in English) and I find it. I > know what it's depth traversal, but the Spanish translation it's > something different, this was the problem. Give "Compilers - Principles, techniques and tools" by Aho, Sethi and Uhlman. Or more affectionately known - "The Dragon Book". > I think we have an understanding problem here :) The term 'chaining' > is used in documents as Shade and Embra instruction-set simulators, > which use dynamic compilation. And I think it's a good term (or > perhaps my english is worst than I thought). Chaining means that > translated blocks are linked together by a direct jump instruction. Yeah, but what it is focusing on is the high level theory rather than on what the recompiler is actually doing. It implies they're linked together end to end, which isn't the case. I think it's just a bad term, so I don't use it. ;-) "Depth Traversal Recompilation" Describes exactly what the recompiler is doing. It's taking all possible branches and calling itself with those branched-to addresses. > In Shade, Embra (and others) when a translated block ends his > execution it does, ever, a jump to the main loop (called dispatch loop > also). Now a dispatch loop is a good name. That describes its operation. But it should generate code to be able to figure out where to jump to next, no? If it doesn't, then I think we've got a "primitive" facet of existing recompilation "technology". > Then the main loop is the one which has to get the actual PC > address, find the next translated block (or translate it) and do a > jump at the begining of the translated block code. This is slow so an > alternative they implement is 'chaining'. Again, which I find to be a bad term, because it's not accurate. It implies they're linked together. They aren't. Atomically, they are blocks of code that can jump all over the place. > Take a look at Embra > document to a better understanding (I think it's in Mul8 Vault, in > dynarec.zip, if not try http://alabi.fib.upc.es/~e6706591/dynarec.zip > it's a document named sigmetrics96-embra.ps). I'd actually rather not until I get mine done. I have a bunch of ideas that are working most excellently for me and I'd like to see what I come up with on my own. > > depth traversal, which means you keep calling yourself with any branch > > points. You're going down the depth of the call tree during recompilation. > Yes, if you do in another way, you couldn't begin to execute code. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but you can use this approach to remove having to have a dispatch loop. First, let's get some terms straight: Terminal - Any instruction that unconditionally modifies the PC (ret, call, jmp, etc...) Nonterminal - Any instruction that can't or doesn't modify the PC directly Conditional terminal - Any instruction that could conditionally affect the PC Those are the three classes of instructions I've come up with. Let's consider our recompiler's "recompile block" function: Recompile(UINT32 u32PC) { while (NULL == RecompileMap[u32PC]) { if (data[u32PC] is a terminal or conditional terminal) { Recompile(u32PC); } EmitCover(); // Conditional terminals can be fixed up because by // the time the code gets here, it's already generated } // This will emit a code snippet for this entire block, also filling // in the RecompileMap array of pointers to recompiled code. EmitTargetCodeForBlock(); } Hopefully this will shed some light on what I'm thinking. This approach will traverse the code for every possible known branch. Of course, things like "ret" and "jp (hl)" we couldn't possibly recompile ahead of time so we'd be forced to look them up when they were encountered. Let's take an example of this code snippet: begin: mov hl, 4300h mov de, 1500h mov ix, 1350h call MoveIt dec bc jnz begin ret MoveIt: mov a, (hl) mov (de), a dec ix jnz MoveIt ret The recompiler would enter at begin and recompile: mov hl, 4300h mov de, 1500h mov ix, 1350h And before emitting the "call MoveIt", it would call itself with the program counter of the address "Move It". So now the recompiler recompiles: MoveIt: mov a, (hl) mov (de), a dec ix And in this case it recompiles the jnz because it's an address that's currently in the block being recompiled: jnz MoveIt ret When we hit this hard terminal, the recompiler has emitted and entire sequence of target opcodes to cover this instruction sequence. And now it returns back to the original launching place - the "call" instruction and finishes up: call MoveIt dec bc It already knows the "Begin" label since it's in the block being recompiled, so it just jumps to the address it knows already if the condition is met. jnz Begin So anything that you don't know, you recompile it, and the entire recompiled code sequence winds up unwinding and recompiling itself. Slick, huh? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 01:49:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA59064 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 01:49:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BB9282.2A1B47A6@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:33:54 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It's "pretty good" though it isn't perfect, the dialect I find to be quite > cool! > I think it's only an spanished english ;) > > Give "Compilers - Principles, techniques and tools" by Aho, Sethi and > Uhlman. Or more affectionately known - "The Dragon Book". > This is the one I got. It's The Book :) > Yeah, but what it is focusing on is the high level theory rather than on > what the recompiler is actually doing. It implies they're linked together > end to end, which isn't the case. I think it's just a bad term, so I don't > use it. ;-) "Depth Traversal Recompilation" Describes exactly what the > recompiler is doing. It's taking all possible branches and calling itself > with those branched-to addresses. > Yes I think I'm focusing in a theory level, too. And you are working in a more special application, a 8 bit CPU emulator. I take a look to the code you sent and I think now you have an array for each memory address of the Z80 with a pointer to translated instruction in this address. 64 Kb of addressing space, 4 bytes pointers, so you use 256Kb of memory, and it's simple, fast and with 64 Mb of memory we are working now it's the best choice. I'm in true? As I was thinking in theory I was thinking in 16 and 32 bits CPU's with large address space with makes this kind of optimization too expensive (may be imposible). In this case you have to use hash tables and do block addressing. You are in fact doing instruction addressing and instruction by instruction translation!(although in fact you do it block by block). It's the best choice for Z80 (and others 8-bit processors) but with larger processors not. > > I'd actually rather not until I get mine done. I have a bunch of ideas > that are working most excellently for me and I'd like to see what I come > up with on my own. > > It's a good decision. > > I'm not sure what you mean by this, but you can use this approach to > remove having to have a dispatch loop. First, let's get some terms > straight: > > Terminal - Any instruction that unconditionally modifies the > PC (ret, call, jmp, etc...) > Nonterminal - Any instruction that can't or doesn't modify the PC > directly > Conditional terminal - Any instruction that could conditionally affect the > PC > > Those are the three classes of instructions I've come up with. Let's > consider our recompiler's "recompile block" function: > > Recompile(UINT32 u32PC) > { > while (NULL == RecompileMap[u32PC]) > { > if (data[u32PC] is a terminal or conditional terminal) > { > Recompile(u32PC); > } > > EmitCover(); // Conditional terminals can be fixed up because by > // the time the code gets here, it's already generated > } > > // This will emit a code snippet for this entire block, also filling > // in the RecompileMap array of pointers to recompiled code. > > EmitTargetCodeForBlock(); > } > Yes, it's simple, fast and easy. But almost it's Z80 (8-bit CPU) specific, you are doing in fact a instruction by instruction translation. Try to do it with M68000 ;) In a larger CPUs I think you could make more than a translation (different blocks) for a same instruction (or instructions), this is the case for backward jumps. > > Hopefully this will shed some light on what I'm thinking. This approach > will traverse the code for every possible known branch. Of course, things > like "ret" and "jp (hl)" we couldn't possibly recompile ahead of time so > we'd be forced to look them up when they were encountered. > > Let's take an example of this code snippet: > > begin: > mov hl, 4300h > mov de, 1500h > mov ix, 1350h > call MoveIt > dec bc > jnz begin > ret > > MoveIt: > mov a, (hl) > mov (de), a > dec ix > jnz MoveIt > ret > > The recompiler would enter at begin and recompile: > > mov hl, 4300h > mov de, 1500h > mov ix, 1350h > > And before emitting the "call MoveIt", it would call itself with the > program counter of the address "Move It". So now the recompiler > recompiles: > Yes. In any dynamic recompiler you have to translate what you have to execute now before execute it ;) Your translation follow translation the flow of execution. > > MoveIt: > mov a, (hl) > mov (de), a > dec ix > > And in this case it recompiles the jnz because it's an address that's > currently in the block being recompiled: > > jnz MoveIt > ret > Supose you jump to an instruction after MoveIt: MoveIt: mov a, (hl) MoveHere: mov (de), a dec ix jnz MoveHere ret When you find 'jnz MoveHere' you know where is the translated code for 'MoveHere' but in a more generic recompiler you don't. Then you have two alternatives: end your block and begin a new block (and you have to translation of the same code) that it's easy, or you can see you are jumping to the same block and translate a intrablock jump. But you can't do this last if you jump from a block to the middle of an already translated block. > > When we hit this hard terminal, the recompiler has emitted and entire > sequence of target opcodes to cover this instruction sequence. And now it > returns back to the original launching place - the "call" instruction and > finishes up: > > call MoveIt > dec bc > > It already knows the "Begin" label since it's in the block being > recompiled, so it just jumps to the address it knows already if the > condition is met. > > jnz Begin > > So anything that you don't know, you recompile it, and the entire > recompiled code sequence winds up unwinding and recompiling itself. Slick, > huh? > Yes, I think It's this is the best way to do recompilation but only for Z80 (and other 8-bit CPUs, I'm repeating myself ...). Without a memory map for each translated instruction (as you have) it's imposible (or I think so) to do what you are doing. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 01:54:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA59077 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 01:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BB9397.8F8F9192@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:38:31 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > Actually I had the same problem. My English compiler book doesn't have > the term, at least not in the register, and the German translation of > the Dragon book I have is rather bad... > Nowadays I almost always buy English technical literature but I bought > the Dragon book before. > The not english people ever has the same problem ;) > > I had the same discussion with Neil because he likes to stick to the > traditional terms and I read about that method in Shade and Embra > first, so I took over their vocab. Neil is doing a dynamic recompilation implementation. I'm working in a theory of recompilation :) It's my fault. > > I think that the Shade document does a much better job explaining > certain techniques, but I also have both listed on my dynarec page: > http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/emulation/dynrcomp.htm > But Embra uses more optimized techniques, emulates MMU, and I read it later so impressed me more. But Shade is the start, Embra is like an extension to Shade. Wonderful page, is the only emulation related dynamic recompilation page I've found and has the better links ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 02:07:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA59214 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:07:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:07:13 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38BB9282.2A1B47A6@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > use it. ;-) "Depth Traversal Recompilation" Describes exactly what the > > recompiler is doing. It's taking all possible branches and calling itself > > with those branched-to addresses. > Yes I think I'm focusing in a theory level, too. And you are working > in a more special application, a 8 bit CPU emulator. I take a look to > the code you sent and I think now you have an array for each memory > address of the Z80 with a pointer to translated instruction in this > address. That's correct. Quite the quick lookup! > working now it's the best choice. I'm in true? As I was thinking in > theory I was thinking in 16 and 32 bits CPU's with large address space > with makes this kind of optimization too expensive (may be imposible). It makes it irrelevant, actually. Here's how you do it in that case. Keep a linked list or hashed list of clumped addresses that have been translated. So for each block, you have the equivalent of what I have for every address in the Z80. Now, when new code executes and it can't find the address, it recompiles. If it *DOES* find the address in the list (that is now compiled), it fixes itself up with a hard jump to the new address. Then you only keep blocks of data for ROMmed and executed areas, and with the 68K for example, they can be half the address space since nothing executes on an odd boundary. > Yes, it's simple, fast and easy. But almost it's Z80 (8-bit CPU) > specific, you are doing in fact a instruction by instruction > translation. Try to do it with M68000 ;) Not a problem. I don't see why it would be 8 bit specific. The 68K has a finite set of instructions and the same theories apply nicely. > In a larger CPUs I think > you could make more than a translation (different blocks) for a same > instruction (or instructions), this is the case for backward jumps. Backward jumps are easy if they're within the sequence because if you keep a linked list of instructions that have been emitted for a given block, you can just point back to the block you're in (which is what my core does right now) > > And before emitting the "call MoveIt", it would call itself with the > > program counter of the address "Move It". So now the recompiler > > recompiles: > Yes. In any dynamic recompiler you have to translate what you have to > execute now before execute it ;) Your translation follow translation > the flow of execution. Not exclusively true! Once I get everything implemented, I'll move a call instruction to a conditional terminal so that the block will go all the way through to the RET instruction and not stop at the call. Now go back and look at it again with that in mind. ;-) A lot of what I'm talking about here is future implementation. Don't take me to task on what I have now. ;-) It'll get there! > > And in this case it recompiles the jnz because it's an address that's > > currently in the block being recompiled: > > jnz MoveIt > > ret > Supose you jump to an instruction after MoveIt: > > MoveIt: > mov a, (hl) > MoveHere: > mov (de), a > dec ix > jnz MoveHere > ret > When you find 'jnz MoveHere' you know where is the translated code for > 'MoveHere' but in a more generic recompiler you don't. Why not? If we recompiled the MoveHere->Ret instruction first, and now we've recompiled at MoveIt, at the end of MoveIt it would jump to MoveHere. Problem solved. > Then you have two alternatives: end your block and begin a new block > (and you have to translation of the same code) that it's easy, or you > can see you are jumping to the same block and translate a intrablock > jump. But you can't do this last if you jump from a block to the > middle of an already translated block. Why not? If you know where the address is, it's easy to poke in a quick jump instruction to jump to it. > > So anything that you don't know, you recompile it, and the entire > > recompiled code sequence winds up unwinding and recompiling itself. Slick, > > huh? > > > Yes, I think It's this is the best way to do recompilation but only > for Z80 (and other 8-bit CPUs, I'm repeating myself ...). Without a > memory map for each translated instruction (as you have) it's > imposible (or I think so) to do what you are doing. You can still have that on a 68K or any other big CPU. You just have to fragment the list a bit more. Let's not pigeonhole the idea or call it "8 bit only". These are workable theories and just need minor tweaks. I *STARTED* with these theories of operation on a 68K and a 34010, both of which are of a much, much larger memory map. Trust me. I've thought this through. The other alternative is going to that sucky "middleware" recompiler idea that seems to be so popular. There are far better ways to do it! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 02:40:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA59323 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BB9E97.8E022118@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:25:28 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > > > Yes, it's simple, fast and easy. But almost it's Z80 (8-bit CPU) > > specific, you are doing in fact a instruction by instruction > > translation. Try to do it with M68000 ;) > > Not a problem. I don't see why it would be 8 bit specific. The 68K has a > finite set of instructions and the same theories apply nicely. > It's not a problem of instructions, it's a problem of memory. If you have 24,32 or 64 bits addresses do you map all this memory (4Mb, 4Gb, whatever)?. Only if you are sure you only use a small portion of memory addresses you could have a per-instruction table. > > Yes. In any dynamic recompiler you have to translate what you have to > > execute now before execute it ;) Your translation follow translation > > the flow of execution. > > Not exclusively true! Once I get everything implemented, I'll move a call > instruction to a conditional terminal so that the block will go all the > way through to the RET instruction and not stop at the call. Now go back > and look at it again with that in mind. ;-) > > Uh ... Procedure inlining? Perhaps could be useful, more code but faster ... > > > Then you have two alternatives: end your block and begin a new block > > (and you have to translation of the same code) that it's easy, or you > > can see you are jumping to the same block and translate a intrablock > > jump. But you can't do this last if you jump from a block to the > > middle of an already translated block. > > Why not? If you know where the address is, it's easy to poke in a quick > jump instruction to jump to it. But you don't know the address for each address instruction in my model of dynamic recompiler. > > > Yes, I think It's this is the best way to do recompilation but only > > for Z80 (and other 8-bit CPUs, I'm repeating myself ...). Without a > > memory map for each translated instruction (as you have) it's > > imposible (or I think so) to do what you are doing. > > You can still have that on a 68K or any other big CPU. You just have to > fragment the list a bit more. > > Let's not pigeonhole the idea or call it "8 bit only". These are workable > theories and just need minor tweaks. I *STARTED* with these theories of > operation on a 68K and a 34010, both of which are of a much, much larger > memory map. > > Trust me. I've thought this through. > > The other alternative is going to that sucky "middleware" recompiler idea > that seems to be so popular. There are far better ways to do it! > I don't know what you means with a 'middleware' recompiler. But take a look at big CPUs. Perhaps on a 68K for an emulated Mega Drive (or Genesis) the real address space is small, the greatest rom is perhaps 4MBytes, so you can have a hash table (or a table of addresses lists). This would be 4MB * 4 = 16 MBytes of memory if you map directly all addresses ,oh...., I forget 68K don't accesses odd addresses, so is 8MBytes, it doesn't matter ;). If you use a smallest hash table with dynamic lists of addresses (and think you have to manage this lists, so would be slower) could be perhaps a 256K table each list will have around 32 addresses when full but many times they will be empty. I now think this is posible. But if you are trying to emulate a Pentium (or Alpha or a multiRisc machine) with a larger memory space with a lot of code executing at time (I have W98 with 64 Mb and with loading anything I 32Mb are already used!, in a Alpha server or another machine this could be worst) you can't and in fact you wan't to know where each instruction is translated. Well. Take in care I'm talking about theory :). I actually believe that you have found perhaps a good solution for our emulation world and I thank you show me it. I have to think a little more about it. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 02:57:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA59347 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:57:34 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38BB9E97.8E022118@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Not a problem. I don't see why it would be 8 bit specific. The 68K has a > > finite set of instructions and the same theories apply nicely. > It's not a problem of instructions, it's a problem of memory. If you > have 24,32 or 64 bits addresses do you map all this memory (4Mb, 4Gb, > whatever)?. No. But so far I'm not concerning myself with oodles of infinite memory, such as the 16 gigabyte memory mapped region of a Pentium. Only machines that are fairly fixed. > Only if you are sure you only use a small portion of > memory addresses you could have a per-instruction table. Right. And with any 68K or any other CPU (and I speak of emulation of video games/computers), there's a finite area that's used. For example, Marble Madness has 128K of code ROM. All you need to keep around is (128K/2)*4=256KBytes - one contiguous block that can be based anywhere. > > Not exclusively true! Once I get everything implemented, I'll move a call > > instruction to a conditional terminal so that the block will go all the > > way through to the RET instruction and not stop at the call. Now go back > > and look at it again with that in mind. ;-) > Uh ... Procedure inlining? Perhaps could be useful, more code but > faster ... And that's the whole idea, right? ;-) > > > can see you are jumping to the same block and translate a intrablock > > > jump. But you can't do this last if you jump from a block to the > > > middle of an already translated block. > > Why not? If you know where the address is, it's easy to poke in a quick > > jump instruction to jump to it. > But you don't know the address for each address instruction in my > model of dynamic recompiler. I don't in mine, either, but eventually the system figures it out by the depth traversal recompiling and it winds up unwinding itself. Perhaps you should actually see some of my source code before we go down this path. You and I have differing views on how things should be done. Frankly, I hate the existing methodologies. They're primitive, and so far everything I've read has been a copy of one another. The ideas I have will (hopefully) cause everyone to rethink recompilation. I just need to finish my core first. ;-) > > Let's not pigeonhole the idea or call it "8 bit only". These are workable > > theories and just need minor tweaks. I *STARTED* with these theories of > > operation on a 68K and a 34010, both of which are of a much, much larger > > memory map. > I don't know what you means with a 'middleware' recompiler. But take > a look at big CPUs. Perhaps on a 68K for an emulated Mega Drive (or > Genesis) the real address space is small, the greatest rom is perhaps > 4MBytes, so you can have a hash table (or a table of addresses lists). > This would be 4MB * 4 = 16 MBytes of memory if you map directly all > addresses ,oh...., I forget 68K don't accesses odd addresses, so is > 8MBytes, it doesn't matter ;). And that's precisely my point. But it's solving 99.99% of what I want it to solve (emulation) and that's good enough. I certainly don't want to make 99.99% of the emulated code suffer because of the 0.01% that needs sparse memory mapping. I don't give a flying rip about emulating a Pentium or any other system that utilizes so much memory I'd be better off just buying the device. Recompilation of a finite, fixed system is what I'm after - not the general "solve everything" case. We'll be here for eons to get that last .01%. > If you use a smallest hash table with > dynamic lists of addresses (and think you have to manage this lists, > so would be slower) could be perhaps a 256K table each list will have > around 32 addresses when full but many times they will be empty. I > now think this is posible. Glad you now think so! > But if you are trying to emulate a Pentium > (or Alpha or a multiRisc machine) with a larger memory space with a > lot of code executing at time (I have W98 with 64 Mb and with loading > anything I 32Mb are already used!, in a Alpha server or another > machine this could be worst) you can't and in fact you wan't to know > where each instruction is translated. Nope. But if I wanted to run a machine like that I'd just go buy the machine. Perhaps I won't think the same in 15 years when it's old junk and 4 megabytes of RAM is standard on every desktop machine. ;-) > Well. Take in care I'm talking about theory :). I gotcha 100%. It might not seem like I enjoy our conversations, but I do! I just don't want my ideas dismissed and snubbed like they've been before. I cannot count the number of times people have told me "Well, it doesn't solve *EVERY* case so therefore it's an invalid method and it shouldn't be done!". I don't care if it doesn't solve every case. If it solves 99.9% of it, I'm quite happy! Different systems require different approaches. The whole point of recompilation is to make it blindingly fast, and solving things for all general cases will wind up doing more harm than good. > I actually believe > that you have found perhaps a good solution for our emulation world > and I thank you show me it. I have to think a little more about it. You're good people, Victor. I would appreciate you continuing to challenge me. Once I get Space Invaders running on my Z80 recompiler core, I'll release it for initial perusal. Right now things are in such a state of flux that I'd spend more time trying to describe what's going on with the code and where I'm going than how it's operating. I also want some time to play with it - to optimize it and get the kinks out. It at least runs and does block moves now. I've now just got to devote more time to it to get it completed. That's tough with contract work and me taking over my boss's position for a week at work. ;-| -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 03:04:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA59371 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 03:04:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BBA3E6.1A7ADC0F@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:48:06 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: <38BB9E97.8E022118@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I'm replying myself :) I missed something to say. Perhaps although in fact you can have the address for each translated instruction you don't need, don't want to have it. Other question, if you make some optimization (i don't know now what kind of optimization) and some instructions in translation are missing, if you reorder the code, if ... I don't know :), where do you jump?. Why do you have to have a instruction by instruction translation? If you only need a block by block translation, you can save memory (a lot of memory) and you don't have to worry about where is each instruction. This is fun. In only a few mails I have learned more than reading a lot of documents ;) Another known problem: Theory Heaven against Implementation Earth ;) In fact I like more implementation, but I'm making a project for university which is theorical and all documentation (university level documentation) is theorical. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 05:17:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA59587 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:17:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:03:47 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The not english people ever has the same problem ;) You name it! >Neil is doing a dynamic recompilation implementation. I'm working in a theory >of recompilation :) It's my fault. I was only interested in the theory first, so I know most documents around. Then I started a very simple dynarec for MIPS (because you don't have to deal with condition flags then), but I stalled the project due to some faults in my approach. Now I'm seeking for new inspiration, and although I don't agree totally with Neil's method I have to admit that it's much more systematic than most other approaches I know. >But Embra uses more optimized techniques, emulates MMU, and I read it later so >impressed me more. But Shade is the start, Embra is like an extension to >Shade. I think Embra doesn't explain that much of it's techniques to be really useful, as is the same with Ardi's whitepaper. Shade gives a lot of hints on problems during recompilation and is therefore much more interesting in my opinion. I haven't read the technical info and the patent of Crusoe yet but it might be possible that you find some good material there. >Wonderful page, is the only emulation related dynamic recompilation >page I've found and has the better links ;) I was so fed up with the fact that there was so few information that I started a link collection by myself. I still do at least monthly searches for "dynamic recompilation" and "binary translation" with various search engines, but it seeme that there isn't more useful information around :-( Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 14:24:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA61143 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:24:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:24:51 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38BBA3E6.1A7ADC0F@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I missed something to say. Perhaps although in fact you can have the > address for each translated instruction you don't need, don't want to > have it. Other question, if you make some optimization (i don't know > now what kind of optimization) and some instructions in translation > are missing, if you reorder the code, if ... I don't know :), where do > you jump?. Why do you have to have a instruction by instruction > translation? If you only need a block by block translation, you can > save memory (a lot of memory) and you don't have to worry about where > is each instruction. Okay, this is one of those times I don't quite understand what you're saying, but I'm guessing that a quick explanation of how things work will clear the air. Typically, people (when writing recompiler) assemble covers for each instruction. Term definition: A "cover" is a series of instructions that "covers" a given source instruction. So, a cover for "ld a, (4300h)" would be: mov al, [ebp+4300h] sub edi, 10h js endOfTime That sequence is a "cover" for it. And I'm sure you'll find that term in the Dragon book. In any case, my recompiler works with an opcode structure. That means that the "mov", the "sub" and "js" instructions are recompiled into a structure that looks similar to this: struct sHostOp { UINT8 u8OpcodeData[12]; // The actual Opcode itself UINT32 u32PCEmul; // Z80 address that it covers (if // applicable) UINT8 u8OpcodeLen; // Length (in bytes) of our opcode UINT8 u8OpcodeClass; // 0=Regular, 1=Timing, UINT8 u8OpcodeType; // 0=Regular, 1=Jump to physical addr, // 2=Jump to other sHostOp structure UINT32 u32JumpToAddr; // Our "jump to" address if applicable struct sHostOp *psNextLink; // Next instruction in list struct sHostOp *psPriorLink; // Prior instruction in list }; When I recompile a block, I create a linked list of structures for each target opcode. This linked list only exists for the time that the recompilation is taking place. Now, as you can see above, if the code is jumping to an address that's in the block that's being recompiled, I can remove instructions from the middle of the list, add them, rearrange them, and the "jump to" address still remains valid. I do all my optimization and rearrangement with the opcode lists like this. This gives me the ultimate flexibility. When it's time to emit actual x86 code: * Run through all links from top to bottom to figure out how big of a memory block to allocate. Allocate the memory block. * Emit the code from the sHostOp structures into the memory locations. At the same time, if we hit a jump instruction, do the necessary fixups, whether it's relative or physical, or to another sHostOp structure. * Update the global 64K pointer list with all emitted entry points for each opcode. * Burn the entire sHostOp linked list tree So all I'm left over with is the actual executable for that block. Sure, it'll take a bit longer to allocate those few structures for the first time things get compiled, but it's not slow enough to be noticeable. Hell, if we wanted to get creative we could put a memory subsystem underneath it that allocates them out of a fixed pool to speed it up, but I'm sure it's not necessary. The sHostOp also gives me hints as to whether or not I can rearrange instructions or if they need to remain static. Pentium resequencing can gain quite good speed increases. > This is fun. In only a few mails I have learned more than reading a > lot of documents ;) Another known problem: Theory Heaven against > Implementation Earth ;) In fact I like more implementation, but I'm > making a project for university which is theorical and all > documentation (university level documentation) is theorical. I've fought many a "university level document" with implementations that completely clobber their theories. Sometmies you've just got to get your hands dirty! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 14:29:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA61176 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:29:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:29:34 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Neil is doing a dynamic recompilation implementation. I'm working in > >of recompilation :) It's my fault. > I was only interested in the theory first, so I know most documents > around. Then I started a very simple dynarec for MIPS (because you > don't have to deal with condition flags then), but I stalled the > project due to some faults in my approach. I'll be writing a recompiler targeting the R4000. I'm into handhelds quite a bit (Casio E-105) which has about as much power as a 486/33. I could use the speed boost. > Now I'm seeking for new inspiration, and although I don't agree totally > with Neil's method I have to admit that it's much more systematic than > most other approaches I know. We probably should discuss those disagreements to see if it's a stylistic thing or just me not giving everyone the complete picture. I have a zillion ideas in my head and have it all sorted out. The problem is that it's coming through in bits and pieces during conversations which makes it hard to track. Even moreso if they're new approaches. ;-) > I haven't read the technical info and the patent of Crusoe yet but it > might be possible that you find some good material there. Their operation is "lots of registers, lots of registers, and VLIW". That's the brute force approach. ;-) The fact is the Crusoe chip is all the same concepts the Pentium has been using since 1992 - just built for a broader set of applications. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Feb 29 19:36:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA62217 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:36:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 04:21:01 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'll be writing a recompiler targeting the R4000. I'm into handhelds quite >a bit (Casio E-105) which has about as much power as a 486/33. I could use >the speed boost. Hmm, I thought that a R4000 would be faster, but that surely depends on the clocking speed. Actually I think MIPS is nice to recompile, but it will be lots of dirty work to get a Z80 flags emulation running on it. BTW, just in case you're searching for a good MIPS book, this should be one of the best: Dominic Sweetman: See MIPS Run, MKP 1999 >We probably should discuss those disagreements to see if it's a stylistic >thing or just me not giving everyone the complete picture. I have a >zillion ideas in my head and have it all sorted out. The problem is that >it's coming through in bits and pieces during conversations which makes it >hard to track. Even moreso if they're new approaches. ;-) I think the problem I have is that I started with translation from RISC to RISC in mind. This should yield the biggest speed increase, since a one-to-one instruction-mapping can be done in many cases. I know that you have the same effect for many Z80 instructions on x86, but it's something different to recompile a Z80 with 4MHz or a R3000 with 30MHz. Due to my focus on RISC I came up with different models than you: 1. To have a direct mapping table for each address of the emulated system works great for 8-bit CPUs which have a maximum address space of 64K or maybe 128K with bank switching. For processors with 24-bit or 32-bit addresses this approach is beginning to be complicated, although it could be handled if you do a similar trick as MIPS which stores the whole page table in virtual memory and therefore only needs space for the existing parts of the table. The "traditional" approach is to only permit jumps to the beginning of a block and store these addresses in a hash table, or do the dirty UltraHLE trick by encoding the address of the generated code in an illegal instruction in the first position of the translated block. This means of course that a jump into a block that part of the block is reompiled twice... 2. Your approach of selective register caching (meaning the implementor decides which simulated register values are held in hardware registers) works wonders for 8-bit processors with relatively few registers and in this case is much faster than dynamic register allocation. You might be even right that the 68000 uses a small part of it's registers very often, but I have my doubts that this will work this optimal for a MIPS with 31+2 registers. But also this is difference is due to our approaches. You have the ability to leave the block after any instruction when it's time for an interrupt, which is necessary for most 8-bit systems and doesn't work very well with register allocation. As I already mentioned some time earlier you'd need special register saves for each instruction in the peer blocks since you'd have to decide which registers are cached for every instruction. Depth traversal operation would be even more complicated an memory hungry since you'd have to remember the currently cached registers for each instruction and compare the memorized structures of the jumping and the target instruction to know which registers have to be swapped. I didn't think of inter-block exits or jumps in the first place so I wasn't aware of that problem. I wanted to have an optimal translation for each block no matter what registers it is using. Even on MIPS a single block will rarely use more than a handful of registers, but it doesn't always have to use the same registers in every block, so the obvious solution would be to allocate hardware registers for every simulated register per block to reduce memory transfers to a minimum. 3. You focus on an exact simulaton of each instruction, where I would combine some sinstructions for speed. Let's take some MIPS examples: lui Rd, hi16 ori Rd, Rd, lo16 Could be combined to: movl Rd, hi16| lo16 Many branch instructions can be optimised: slt Rd, Rt, Rs beq Rd, Zero, offset is basically: ble Rs, Rt, offset Also a MIPS multiplication consists of at least two instructions and would lead to some unnecessary memory transfers since you wouldn't normally cache HI and LO in hardware registers, would you? Short resume: Your methods of static register caching and per address mapping work great for 8-bit processors. It's easy and fast for systems with few registers and memory. But I still have my some doubts that it will be optmial for larger CPUs. My approach is bad for timing sensitive systems and wastes memory and time due to the possiblity of recompiling block parts several times, but it should have less memory accesses per block. It would be great to find some kind of compromise between these two. I know that it's easy to turn off the timing code in your generation, but there is still the problem with per block register allocation and large address spaces. Where we both agree though is: - dynamic recompilation has to be done with dynamic code generation and not pre-assembled instruction templates - decoder and generator have to be separate modules which communicate via information structures, since this leads to cleaner and better retargetable code, not to mention the improved optimisation possibilities. >Their operation is "lots of registers, lots of registers, and VLIW". >That's the brute force approach. ;-) The fact is the Crusoe chip is all >the same concepts the Pentium has been using since 1992 - just built for a >broader set of applications. Too true! I was somewhat dissapointed by Crusoe as a processor. All I know is that it has 128-bit VLIWs and 64 registers, but I never found out the register width or what instructions Crusoe has. So the only interesting part is the Code Morphing software, which surely does about the same as Pentium in hardware, but the theory of it might be interesting for Victor, and profs are often impressed when they see that some techniques are actually used in commercial products ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 1 11:33:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA64898 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:33:44 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I'll be writing a recompiler targeting the R4000. I'm into handhelds > >a bit (Casio E-105) which has about as much power as a 486/33. I could > >the speed boost. > Hmm, I thought that a R4000 would be faster, but that surely depends on > the clocking speed. Actually I think MIPS is nice to recompile, but it > will be lots of dirty work to get a Z80 flags emulation running on it. It has such a small cache that its performance isn't as good as it should be. But then again it's a handheld - What do we need all that power for? . ;-) > >it's coming through in bits and pieces during conversations which > >hard to track. Even moreso if they're new approaches. ;-) > I think the problem I have is that I started with translation from RISC > to RISC in mind. This should yield the biggest speed increase, since a > one-to-one instruction-mapping can be done in many cases. Not necessarily. But then again, the same thing could be said for the x86 sans all the registers. There are lots of 1:1 mappings for the Z80 to the x86, but regardless, you're going to have to do manual flag calculation. > you have the same effect for many Z80 instructions on x86, but it's > something different to recompile a Z80 with 4MHz or a R3000 with 30MHz. Not really. All the same rules still apply. The problem with the x86 is the lack of registers, which presents some swapping register problems. However, I still see no reason it couldn't run a 34010 at 50MHZ just fine. Of course, it also depends upon whether or not you're recompiling C code (or assembly). You can make several assumptions if it's C (like not jumping in to the middle of blocks). > Due to my focus on RISC I came up with different models than you: Remember, I focused on the 34010 and the 68K first, which are very RISC-like. They all still apply. You just have to tweak how you do it based on the CPU and the target software you're recompiling. > 1. To have a direct mapping table for each address of the emulated > system works great for 8-bit CPUs which have a maximum address space of > 64K or maybe 128K with bank switching. Of course. It also works great for 16, 24, or 32 bit CPUs if only a small region of the address space is used. > For processors with 24-bit or 32-bit addresses this approach is > beginning to be complicated, although it could be handled if you do a > similar trick as MIPS which stores the whole page table in virtual > memory and therefore only needs space for the existing parts of the > table. You can still use the same approach with pointer indirection if you know where your memory map is. If it's all over the map, then the mapped approach is memory hungry and probably not the right way to go. However, if your code is ROMmed and it's located from 00000000h-00050000h, creating such a table is easy to do and works just as well. The virtual page table thing is a nice idea, but it basically requires you to be the operating system. Oh... if that was the case... ;-) > The "traditional" approach is to only permit jumps to the beginning of > a block and store these addresses in a hash table, That makes the assumption that the code doesn't double back on itself to oddball locations (C code doesn't do this). For the 68K and 34010 code I've looked at it seems like it'd work quite well. But a hash table lookup is still far slower than a linear index. If you've got the memory, obviously the pointer lookup approach is much, much faster, and after all, that's what we're going for - speed - right? ;-) > UltraHLE trick by encoding the address of the generated code in an > illegal instruction in the first position of the translated block. This > means of course that a jump into a block that part of the block is > reompiled twice... I like the idea of putting in a trap. Seems like it'd work quite nicely! I'll stew on this one... > 2. Your approach of selective register caching (meaning the implementor > decides which simulated register values are held in hardware registers) > works wonders for 8-bit processors with relatively few registers and in > this case is much faster than dynamic register allocation. > You might be even right that the 68000 uses a small part of it's > registers very often, but I have my doubts that this will work this > optimal for a MIPS with 31+2 registers. I can say for a fact that it'll work nicely on the 68K and the 34010 from the code I've seen. Of course, I'm not going *FROM* MIPS to something, I'm going from something *TO* MIPS which makes the problem nonexistent. ;-) But even in the case where MIPS is recompiled to x86, there are going to be registers that are used more often than others. That's just the way compilers work. And if it uses so many registers that it can't keep them all in native x86 registers, then register caching allocation won't do you any good. > But also this is difference is due to our approaches. You have the > ability to leave the block after any instruction when it's time for an > interrupt, which is necessary for most 8-bit systems and doesn't work > very well with register allocation. Timing is damned important with *ANY* CPU! RISC/8 bit has *NOTHING* to do with it. If you don't believe me, get even a cycle off on the 34010 when it's issuing redraws and it causes sprites to be drawn in the wrong place. Or on the 68K, screw up a couple of cycles and watch the sprites start flickering, disappearing, or watch the game code crash. I guess I come from a realm where I've run into so many timing problems to know that timing is indeed a sensitive animal. You guys are theorists. ;-) Trust me - I know exactly what I'm talking about! > As I already mentioned some time > earlier you'd need special register saves for each instruction in the > peer blocks since you'd have to decide which registers are cached for > every instruction. Either that, or you'd have to recompile the block for each type of "register set usage". Yeuck. That'd probably fragment the hell out of your cache. > I didn't think of inter-block exits or jumps in the first place so I > wasn't aware of that problem. They certainly do exist. They're more common in assembly code where there are no inner/outer rules (I.E. C compiled code). A good hybrid approach would be to pass hints to the recompiler to let it know what areas it can coalesce and what areas it can't. But anything is slower than an indexed lookup and it most likely would hinder performance. > doesn't always have to use the same registers in every block, so the > obvious solution would be to allocate hardware registers for every > simulated register per block to reduce memory transfers to a minimum. If you have them available, sure. > 3. You focus on an exact simulaton of each instruction, where I would > combine some sinstructions for speed. Let's take some MIPS examples: You're reading too much into what's implemented. *I'M NOT FINISHED!* Promise me that you'll keep in mind that none of my optimizations can occur until I get the whole thing up and working. After that, there are MANY other grouping optimizations I intend on doing which cover everything you're talking about below. In fact, it'll be done not only on the Z80 side of things, but also on the x86 side as well. After things are running, *THEN* I can start showing some other optimization techniques! > Many branch instructions can be optimised: > slt Rd, Rt, Rs > beq Rd, Zero, offset > is basically: > ble Rs, Rt, offset And again, once my recompiler is completed, these kinds of optimizatios will occur. Don't sell me so short so soon! ;-) > Short resume: > Your methods of static register caching and per address mapping work > great for 8-bit processors. It's easy and fast for systems with few > registers and memory. But I still have my some doubts that it will be > optmial for larger CPUs. Haven't studied much actual assembly code for these CPUs, have you? ;-) You should take a good look at it. You'll find some amazing patterns! On the 68000, A0/A1 and D0/D1 are used about 90% of the time. On the 34010, A0-A3 are used constantly, and become decreasingly used as it continues. Those are the two RISC examples I work with most. I've poured over lots of code and analyzed a ton of games. Putting in a general purpose register cashing algorithm will buy you nothing - in fact, it'll hinder it. To recompile properly, you have to know what you're recompiling and alter your algorithm to match. I never once stated that my approaches are the end all solution. But what I'm saying is that an end-all solution will not yield the most optimal results. Rather than going for a general pupose one-size-fits-all solution, a better approach is to specialize what target you're recompiling and alter your algorithm to fit it. After all, our ultimate goal here is the fastest achievable speed. > My approach is bad for timing sensitive systems and wastes memory and > time due to the possiblity of recompiling block parts several times, > but it should have less memory accesses per block. But at the same time, now that you're using a lot more memory, you're also using a lot more cache, whereas the repeated memory accesses are going to be in cache since they're used often enough to stay there. And timing sensitive systems are 90% of the video games out there. Some of them are *DEATHLY* critical (Sega Genesis, anyone?), otherwise you wind up flashing/missing sprites or internal overflows because of scanline counters relying on CPU speed measurements. > It would be great to find some kind of compromise between these two. I > know that it's easy to turn off the timing code in your generation, but > there is still the problem with per block register allocation and large > address spaces. The per block register allocation scheme I argue is a wash because of cache coherency, and large address spaces are still possible. If I know that ROM exists from 0x10000-0x4ffff then I can allocate a 0x40000 element array for it. It can be located anywhere it wants to be, and it's only for recompiled code. But don't say "large address spaces" - say "sparse address spaces". My approach handles large address spaces if only a small fraction of it is used. However, if it's a system with a very large memory map, my approach won't work unless you have gobs and gobs of memory laying around. But at the same time, we need to be altering our approaches depending upon our target. Generalized approaches are always going to be less optimal. > >Their operation is "lots of registers, lots of registers, and VLIW". > >That's the brute force approach. ;-) The fact is the Crusoe chip is > >the same concepts the Pentium has been using since 1992 - just built > >broader set of applications. > Too true! I was somewhat dissapointed by Crusoe as a processor. All I Yeah, me too. I thought it was truly something revolutionary. Intel does it in 1992 and has been doing it for 8 years and it's "So what". Get a little marketing hype behind it with Linus Trivolas and now it's "super cool". I hate the general public. So to summarize, we don't have a "disagreement". We have a different set of goals. You cannot successfully argue that your generalized approach will be faster or better than mine for fairly limited address usage, and I cannot argue that my specialized approach will work well for large address usage. And also clearly, my ideas aren't "RISC" or 8-bit, so please let's drop using those terms. Across any CPU, there are registers used more often than others. All of my ideas are scalable to any CPU regardless of how many registers it has - provided that a reasonably small amount of code space is all that's used. My approaches won't work for large scale things like a home computer emulation with 16 megabytes of RAM. But it will work for every single video game, regardless of CPU, that I've encountered to date. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 1 13:45:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA65428 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:45:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 22:09:29 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com [R4000] >It has such a small cache that its performance isn't as good as it should >be. Yeah, caches were always a problem with MIPS, especially the software cache handling, but I like the ISA. >But then again it's a handheld - What do we need all that >power for? . ;-) For WinCE to run smoothly? ;-) >Not really. All the same rules still apply. The problem with the x86 is >the lack of registers, which presents some swapping register problems. Indeed. >However, I still see no reason it couldn't run a 34010 at 50MHZ just fine. I'm not sure if I know right now what kind of CPU the 34010 is. Could you tell me the architecture please? >Of course, it also depends upon whether or not you're recompiling C code >(or assembly). You can make several assumptions if it's C (like not >jumping in to the middle of blocks). Probably. Just like you I wanted to work with extended basic blocks, which are terminated only by an unconditional jump, and handle intra- block branches directly. >Remember, I focused on the 34010 and the 68K first, which are very >RISC-like. They all still apply. You just have to tweak how you do it >based on the CPU and the target software you're recompiling. I think this is out core problem: You want to tweak the recompiler till it generates optimal code and I'm seeking for a more general approach. >Of course. It also works great for 16, 24, or 32 bit CPUs if only a small >region of the address space is used. The problem is that some processors use a rather weird memory mapping, which makes this method relatively complicated even if only a very small part of the space is used. >You can still use the same approach with pointer indirection if you know >where your memory map is. If it's all over the map, then the mapped >approach is memory hungry and probably not the right way to go. However, >if your code is ROMmed and it's located from 00000000h-00050000h, creating >such a table is easy to do and works just as well. I think we should try to find some real systems as examples to discuss this matter. But I have to admit that I'm not an expert for memory mapping issues anyway. >The virtual page table thing is a nice idea, but it basically requires you >to be the operating system. Oh... if that was the case... ;-) I wanna be the scheduler then I can tell others what they have to do ;- ) It was more or less a joke that I mentioned the virtual table, because I think that the MIPS page table handling is ingenious. >That makes the assumption that the code doesn't double back on itself to >oddball locations (C code doesn't do this). For the 68K and 34010 code >I've looked at it seems like it'd work quite well. But a hash table lookup >is still far slower than a linear index. That's for shure! >If you've got the memory, >obviously the pointer lookup approach is much, much faster, and after all, >that's what we're going for - speed - right? ;-) Agreed - as long as you don't have to map too much memory. >I like the idea of putting in a trap. Seems like it'd work quite nicely! >I'll stew on this one... Actually on guy mentioned that in a discussion about self-modifying code as a method to see if the block was modified, but I think it works far better to see if the block has been recompiled and the location of the generated code by simply looking at the first instruction of the block. It works fine for MIPS since you have enough space to encode a target address and the illegal opcode in a 32-bit word, but you'll have problems to use it for the smaller Z80 instructions. When the generated code has to be swapped for some reason you have to restore the original instruction of course. And when another block runs right into that illegal instruction you have to check which was the original one or simply jump to the already recompiled block. >I can say for a fact that it'll work nicely on the 68K and the 34010 from >the code I've seen. Of course, I'm not going *FROM* MIPS to something, I'm >going from something *TO* MIPS which makes the problem nonexistent. ;- ) But only until you someday decide you have to recompile from MIPS code... >But even in the case where MIPS is recompiled to x86, there are going to >be registers that are used more often than others. That's just the way >compilers work. Hard to decide which registers should be taken though. >And if it uses so many registers that it can't keep them >all in native x86 registers, then register caching allocation won't do you >any good. That's one of the problems the x86 has. I'm not sure if your code is already that flexible - so please correct me - but what about making the communication between the two layers flexible enough for the generator to decide if it uses static or dynamic register caching? Because the problem of to few registers mainly belongs to the x86 which is just one (although much used) of the currently utilized architectures. >I guess I come from a realm where I've run into so many timing problems to >know that timing is indeed a sensitive animal. You guys are theorists. ;-) >Trust me - I know exactly what I'm talking about! Too true, after all I'm as much theorist as Victor, so please don't mind when I'm thinking about certain topics which would be perfectly clear if I worked it through in reality. >Either that, or you'd have to recompile the block for each type of >"register set usage". Yeuck. That'd probably fragment the hell out of your >cache. I'm not sure how this should help anyway, since you can exit and reenter at any possible point. >They certainly do exist. They're more common in assembly code where there >are no inner/outer rules (I.E. C compiled code). A good hybrid approach >would be to pass hints to the recompiler to let it know what areas it can >coalesce and what areas it can't. Maybe a special handling of short blocks without conditional branches could be done. >But anything is slower than an indexed >lookup and it most likely would hinder performance. I'm sure I still have too many other performance leaks in my theory... >You're reading too much into what's implemented. *I'M NOT FINISHED!* I never claimed that. >Promise me that you'll keep in mind that none of my optimizations can >occur until I get the whole thing up and working. After that, there are >MANY other grouping optimizations I intend on doing which cover everything >you're talking about below. In fact, it'll be done not only on the Z80 >side of things, but also on the x86 side as well. I wonder how you want to optimise to instructions in a single one when your pointer table gives you the possibility to jump to any instruction. Since you cannot know which of the translated instructions could become a jump target in the future there isn't much possibility for such optimisation. Or do you have an elegant solution for this matter? >After things are running, *THEN* I can start showing some other >optimization techniques! That'll be interesting! >Haven't studied much actual assembly code for these CPUs, have you? ;- ) >You should take a good look at it. You'll find some amazing patterns! Oops, got me! After all I'm a bookworm and "eat" lots of ISAs at the moment, but I haven't examined that much code yet. >On the 68000, A0/A1 and D0/D1 are used about 90% of the time. As I told you some time ago these registers were much used by TOS and ST programming experts recommended not to use these in applications. It then depends on the application of course if the OS might even have more processor time. Due to TOS wanting all arguments passed on the stack the SP was also very heavily used. >On the >34010, A0-A3 are used constantly, and become decreasingly used as it >continues. Those are the two RISC examples I work with most. I don't know the 34010 but it's a bit strange to call the 68000 a RISC ;-) >I've poured >over lots of code and analyzed a ton of games. Putting in a general >purpose register cashing algorithm will buy you nothing - in fact, it'll >hinder it. To recompile properly, you have to know what you're recompiling >and alter your algorithm to match. So you'd be using a different register mapping for some game drivers? >I never once stated that my approaches are the end all solution. But what >I'm saying is that an end-all solution will not yield the most optimal >results. Rather than going for a general pupose one-size-fits-all >solution, a better approach is to specialize what target you're >recompiling and alter your algorithm to fit it. After all, our ultimate >goal here is the fastest achievable speed. That's true, but sometimes I wonder how your Z80tox86 could be retargetted to eg. ARM without the ARM to be programmed like a x86. But that will clear up as soon as you start your generator for MIPS. >But at the same time, now that you're using a lot more memory, you're also >using a lot more cache, whereas the repeated memory accesses are going to >be in cache since they're used often enough to stay there. But I'm using the I-cache instead of the D-cache, and the caches have to be (partly) flushed after each newly generated block. On a Pentium this is totally handled by the hardware but on a StrongARM you have to synchronize your Harvard caches manually. >And timing sensitive systems are 90% of the video games out there. Some of >them are *DEATHLY* critical (Sega Genesis, anyone?), otherwise you wind up >flashing/missing sprites or internal overflows because of scanline >counters relying on CPU speed measurements. I have to admit that you already convinced me some time ago that timing code is essential. [Crusoe] >Yeah, me too. I thought it was truly something revolutionary. Intel does >it in 1992 and has been doing it for 8 years and it's "So what". Get a >little marketing hype behind it with Linus Trivolas and now it's "super >cool". I hate the general public. I thought his name is "Torvalds" ;-) It's a bit strange, when Crusoe came out the German magazin "Der Spiegel" wrote an article about it, but they didn't tell much about the processor. Most of the article was about Linus and his presentation of the processor in a Quake 3 deathmatch :-( >So to summarize, we don't have a "disagreement". We have a different set >of goals. You cannot successfully argue that your generalized approach >will be faster or better than mine for fairly limited address usage, and I >cannot argue that my specialized approach will work well for large address >usage. True. I hope I didn't offend you by playing around with some ideas, it certainly wasn't meant that way. I just compared our theories (or rather my theory and your solution) to find out the pros and cons and if it were possible to combine the best features in one approach. >And also clearly, my ideas aren't "RISC" or 8-bit, so please let's drop >using those terms. Across any CPU, there are registers used more often >than others. All of my ideas are scalable to any CPU regardless of >how many registers it has - provided that a reasonably small amount of >code space is all that's used. My approaches won't work for large scale >things like a home computer emulation with 16 megabytes of RAM. But it >will work for every single video game, regardless of CPU, that I've >encountered to date. Yeah, the problem is that I'm mainly a computer guy. I guess some of my misunderstandings will clear up as soon as you have other translators to take a look at. I know you want to finish your Z80tox86 first and it's good that way, or you will end up mixing ISAs as I start to do ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 1 15:41:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA68782 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:41:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:41:06 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >It has such a small cache that its performance isn't as good as it > >be. > Yeah, caches were always a problem with MIPS, especially the software > cache handling, but I like the ISA. ISA? Please explain... > >But then again it's a handheld - What do we need all that > >power for? . ;-) > For WinCE to run smoothly? ;-) Seen 3.0? ;-) I've been working with it for a while. Much, much snappier. I've done some emulation work under it as well for my E-105. > >However, I still see no reason it couldn't run a 34010 at 50MHZ just > fine. > I'm not sure if I know right now what kind of CPU the 34010 is. Could > you tell me the architecture please? Aha! The 34010 is a Texas Instruments 32 bit RISC-like CPU (I'm saying RISC-like because the term RISC is so nebulous nowadays - RISC in the context of having instructions that are fairly symmetric). It is a CPU designed for graphics processing. For example, it (or a variant of it) was used on the Viper 550 and I believe the Matrox G200 video cards. It has 32 32 bit registers, 1 is devoted to the stack. Interestingly enough, all addresses are *BITS*, not bytes! So you have to do a shift right by 3 to get the actual byte address. It has a built in blitter instruction that can do block moves, xors, ORs, pixel translation, and even has a *LINEDRAW* instruction! It's designed for graphics, and it's used in games like Smash TV, Trog, Mortal Kombat (Barf!), NBA Jam, Terminator, and a few other of the early 90's Williams games. > >Remember, I focused on the 34010 and the 68K first, which are very > >RISC-like. They all still apply. You just have to tweak how you do it > >based on the CPU and the target software you're recompiling. > I think this is out core problem: You want to tweak the recompiler till > it generates optimal code and I'm seeking for a more general approach. No, no..... tweak the *APPROACH*, not the recompiler! My point is instead of creating 1 geenral approach, create 3 more specific approaches. > >Of course. It also works great for 16, 24, or 32 bit CPUs if only a > >region of the address space is used. > The problem is that some processors use a rather weird memory mapping, > which makes this method relatively complicated even if only a very > small part of the space is used. Really? Can you give me an example? > >approach is memory hungry and probably not the right way to go. > >if your code is ROMmed and it's located from 00000000h-00050000h, > >such a table is easy to do and works just as well. > I think we should try to find some real systems as examples to discuss > this matter. But I have to admit that I'm not an expert for memory > mapping issues anyway. Here's an example: Marble Madness - 00000000-0001ffff - Program ROM 00040000-0004ffff - Scratch RAM 00050000-000503ff - Sprite RAM 00050400-000507ff - Color RAM 00300000-03003fff - Slapstic (proteciton chip) 98000000-98ffffff - Controller I/O, etc... (this is all from memory, so things might not be in the proper place but you still get the idea). I know from the way the code works that it only executes code out of ROM, so the only recompilation we need to do is in that first 128K region. > It was more or less a joke that I mentioned the virtual table, because > I think that the MIPS page table handling is ingenious. That same approach would work nicely on the Pentium's MMU, too. > When the generated code has to be swapped for some reason you have to > restore the original instruction of course. And when another block runs > right into that illegal instruction you have to check which was the > original one or simply jump to the already recompiled block. Not to mention the ROM failure messages one gets when the ROM has been modified. ;-) > >I can say for a fact that it'll work nicely on the 68K and the 34010 > >the code I've seen. Of course, I'm not going *FROM* MIPS to something, > >going from something *TO* MIPS which makes the problem nonexistent. ;- > But only until you someday decide you have to recompile from MIPS > code... Aha! But then I'll change my approach... > >But even in the case where MIPS is recompiled to x86, there are going > >be registers that are used more often than others. That's just the way > >compilers work. > Hard to decide which registers should be taken though. Examine the code it's recompiling. In other words, know your target. ;-) > >And if it uses so many registers that it can't keep them > >all in native x86 registers, then register caching allocation won't do > >any good. > That's one of the problems the x86 has. > I'm not sure if your code is already that flexible - so please correct > me - but what about making the communication between the two layers > flexible enough for the generator to decide if it uses static or > dynamic register caching? I think we're getting to the crux of the matter... the source layer has *NO SAY* in how the target layer generates code. It is *ENTIRELY* the target layer's decision as to where things go and how they're utilized. In fact, I can create a module that uses your approachs and one that uses mine, and both of them would use the same source layer. The target layer gives the ultimate flexibility. You can do anything you want in the target layer. The source layer just passes hints. It doesn't do any register allocation at all! > >Either that, or you'd have to recompile the block for each type of > >"register set usage". Yeuck. That'd probably fragment the hell out of > >cache. > I'm not sure how this should help anyway, since you can exit and > reenter at any possible point. I don't think the dynamic allocation of register and entry/exit at any point approach would work. I can't see a way to make it work. > >They certainly do exist. They're more common in assembly code where > >are no inner/outer rules (I.E. C compiled code). A good hybrid > >would be to pass hints to the recompiler to let it know what areas it > >coalesce and what areas it can't. > Maybe a special handling of short blocks without conditional branches > could be done. Yes, exactly. Or just a "hint list" of regions that say "You can safely group this entire region together. It's not timing sensitive". > I wonder how you want to optimise to instructions in a single one when > your pointer table gives you the possibility to jump to any > instruction. Oh, another point that I think we're missing. There's the source level optimization that groups instructions together *FIRST*, and then there's the target level optimization that optimizes the target opcodes. > Since you cannot know which of the translated instructions > could become a jump target in the future there isn't much possibility > for such optimisation. Or do you have an elegant solution for this > matter? Yes, it's a matter of keeping a "combined list" so that code will get recompiled in the case where it gets jumped to later on. When the recopmiler encounters a group of instructions that have been recompiled but have been optimized out, it recompiles that block in another area until it hits an address that hasn't been recompiled. You wind up creating a small bit of duplicated code, but it wouldn't be enough to worry about. > >Haven't studied much actual assembly code for these CPUs, have you? ;- > >You should take a good look at it. You'll find some amazing patterns! > Oops, got me! After all I'm a bookworm and "eat" lots of ISAs at the > moment, but I haven't examined that much code yet. You should. It will give you a few new perspectives. It did for me! > >On the 68000, A0/A1 and D0/D1 are used about 90% of the time. > As I told you some time ago these registers were much used by TOS and > ST programming experts recommended not to use these in applications. It > then depends on the application of course if the OS might even have > more processor time. Of course, but in the case of the x86, pick 4, any 4, registers that are most commonly used. > >34010, A0-A3 are used constantly, and become decreasingly used as it > >continues. Those are the two RISC examples I work with most. > I don't know the 34010 but it's a bit strange to call the 68000 a RISC > ;-) Hm... I don't think so. What does it have, 28 instructions, and they're all symmetics? Smells RISC like to me... > >hinder it. To recompile properly, you have to know what you're > >and alter your algorithm to match. > So you'd be using a different register mapping for some game drivers? Absolutely - yes. That's the way you tweak it for the target code being executed. > That's true, but sometimes I wonder how your Z80tox86 could be > retargetted to eg. ARM without the ARM to be programmed like a x86. But > that will clear up as soon as you start your generator for MIPS. It's easy. There's no x86-centric code in the srcz80.c module. It knows nothing of the target processor. It only passes in hints to the target layer - which does all the work. > >But at the same time, now that you're using a lot more memory, you're > >using a lot more cache, whereas the repeated memory accesses are going > >be in cache since they're used often enough to stay there. > But I'm using the I-cache instead of the D-cache, and the caches have > to be (partly) flushed after each newly generated block. On a Pentium > this is totally handled by the hardware but on a StrongARM you have to > synchronize your Harvard caches manually. I doubt that the ARM's caches combined are bigger than the Pentiums. And here we're talking about decommiting registers to memory and back again whenb we've run out of registers, so it'll most definitely be in data cache. But if you have several recompilations of the same block of code for different register usage, the breadth of the use of the cache will be in the instruction cache, and will probably be huge. > >And timing sensitive systems are 90% of the video games out there. > >them are *DEATHLY* critical (Sega Genesis, anyone?), otherwise you > >flashing/missing sprites or internal overflows because of scanline > >counters relying on CPU speed measurements. > I have to admit that you already convinced me some time ago that timing > code is essential. In most games it is, yes. I could send you a version of Retrocade with my interrupts off by 5 T-States. ;-) > >Yeah, me too. I thought it was truly something revolutionary. Intel > >it in 1992 and has been doing it for 8 years and it's "So what". Get a > >little marketing hype behind it with Linus Trivolas and now it's > >cool". I hate the general public. > I thought his name is "Torvalds" ;-) Whatever. ;-) > It's a bit strange, when Crusoe came out the German magazin "Der > Spiegel" wrote an article about it, but they didn't tell much about the > processor. Most of the article was about Linus and his presentation of > the processor in a Quake 3 deathmatch :-( Hype, hype, hype, and more hype. People lambast Microsoft and everyone else for it, yet it's OK for > >So to summarize, we don't have a "disagreement". We have a different > >of goals. You cannot successfully argue that your generalized approach > >will be faster or better than mine for fairly limited address usage, > >cannot argue that my specialized approach will work well for large > True. I hope I didn't offend you by playing around with some ideas, it > certainly wasn't meant that way. I just compared our theories (or > rather my theory and your solution) to find out the pros and cons and > if it were possible to combine the best features in one approach. No offense taken. The one thing to keep in mind is that "pro" and "con" are relative when knowing what you're recompiling. ;-) That's my basic point. A generalized approach will not solve everything optimally, so it calls for splitting things up a bit and taking slightly different approaches depending upon what you're recompiling. > >things like a home computer emulation with 16 megabytes of RAM. But it > >will work for every single video game, regardless of CPU, that I've > >encountered to date. > Yeah, the problem is that I'm mainly a computer guy. I guess some of my > misunderstandings will clear up as soon as you have other translators > to take a look at. I know you want to finish your Z80tox86 first and > it's good that way, or you will end up mixing ISAs as I start to do ;-) You solve the big model stuff, I'll solve the small model stuff, and together we'll kick some major ass. How's that sound? ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 00:55:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA72526 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:55:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:39:31 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >ISA? Please explain... Instruction Set Architecture. Now I'm also using lot's of these TLAs (three letter acronyms)... >> For WinCE to run smoothly? ;-) >Seen 3.0? ;-) I've been working with it for a while. Much, much snappier. Haven't worked on WinCE yet. I only saw an article about CE devices in a magazin, but I didn't read it really because it wasn't that informative. For one device they mentioned that it was the fastest in the test and also wrote down the clock speed, but do you think they found it worth mentioning if it has a MIPS or SuperH processor?? >I've done some emulation work under it as well for my E-105. Does it have a blue screen of death as well? ;-) >The 34010 is a Texas Instruments 32 bit RISC-like CPU (I'm saying >RISC-like because the term RISC is so nebulous nowadays - RISC in the >context of having instructions that are fairly symmetric). Yeah, one problem is that inflational use of the term RISC as made, and most don't know that it's only about architecture and not implementation. So it doesn't matter if the Pentium is using RISC features inside if you don't see it in the instruction set... >It is a CPU >designed for graphics processing. For example, it (or a variant of it) was >used on the Viper 550 and I believe the Matrox G200 video cards. Ah, so it's more like a DSP. >It has 32 32 bit registers, 1 is devoted to the stack. Interestingly >enough, all addresses are *BITS*, not bytes! So you have to do a shift >right by 3 to get the actual byte address. Sounds really like a DSP. Infineon's TriCore also has some instructions with bit addressing but not all. >It has a built in blitter instruction that can do block moves, xors, ORs, >pixel translation, and even has a *LINEDRAW* instruction! Wow! That must be a bitch to emulate! >No, no..... tweak the *APPROACH*, not the recompiler! My point is instead >of creating 1 general approach, create 3 more specific approaches. Sorry, I misunderstood you in that point... >> The problem is that some processors use a rather weird memory mapping, >> which makes this method relatively complicated even if only a very >> small part of the space is used. >Really? Can you give me an example? I'll try to find one. The MIPS memory map is somewhat weird, but I'll have to look it up again... >Here's an example: >Marble Madness - 00000000-0001ffff - Program ROM > 00040000-0004ffff - Scratch RAM > 00050000-000503ff - Sprite RAM > 00050400-000507ff - Color RAM > 00300000-03003fff - Slapstic (proteciton chip) > 98000000-98ffffff - Controller I/O, etc... >(this is all from memory, so things might not be in the proper place but >you still get the idea). So you only recompile the program ROM and have some special memory handlers for the controller I/O rigth? >> It was more or less a joke that I mentioned the virtual table, because >> I think that the MIPS page table handling is ingenious. >That same approach would work nicely on the Pentium's MMU, too. I guess the Pentium has a special table walking hardware. The cool thing about the MIPS is that the MMU is so primitive that it simply throws a miss exception when it doesn't find the address translation in the TLB. Everything else is done by the operating system, and it's still fast. The problem about a single page table is that it takes a lot of memory by itself, which is why many CPUs have a multi-level access. MIPS also holds the whole page table in virtual memory so it only needs memory for the parts that are really used ;-) >Not to mention the ROM failure messages one gets when the ROM has been >modified. ;-) Hehe, how can progammers be this unfair to test if the ROM is really unmodified? ;-) >> But only until you someday decide you have to recompile from MIPS >> code... >Aha! But then I'll change my approach... I forgot how flexible you are in contrast to other dynarec authors! >I think we're getting to the crux of the matter... the source layer has >*NO SAY* in how the target layer generates code. It is *ENTIRELY* the >target layer's decision as to where things go and how they're utilized. In >fact, I can create a module that uses your approachs and one that uses >mine, and both of them would use the same source layer. Should have taken a deeper look at the code before asking such questions, heh? >The target layer gives the ultimate flexibility. You can do anything you >want in the target layer. The source layer just passes hints. It doesn't >do any register allocation at all! That's absolutely how it should be! ;-) I knew I'd like your approach as soon as I heard some of it's features. >I don't think the dynamic allocation of register and entry/exit at any >point approach would work. I can't see a way to make it work. I'm not talking about runtime but generation time dynamic allocation, but even then it's complicated enough to match the cached registers of two instructions from different blocks... >> Maybe a special handling of short blocks without conditional branches >> could be done. >Yes, exactly. Or just a "hint list" of regions that say "You can safely >group this entire region together. It's not timing sensitive". Good, now we have the same idea again ;-) >> Since you cannot know which of the translated instructions >> could become a jump target in the future there isn't much possibility >> for such optimisation. Or do you have an elegant solution for this >> matter? >Yes, it's a matter of keeping a "combined list" so that code will get >recompiled in the case where it gets jumped to later on. When the >recompiler encounters a group of instructions that have been recompiled >but have been optimized out, it recompiles that block in another area >until it hits an address that hasn't been recompiled. You wind up creating >a small bit of duplicated code, but it wouldn't be enough to worry about. Do you want mark the optimised addresses in the pointer table to keep track of it? >> Oops, got me! After all I'm a bookworm and "eat" lots of ISAs at the >> moment, but I haven't examined that much code yet. >You should. It will give you a few new perspectives. It did for me! I bet so! >Hm... I don't think so. What does it have, 28 instructions, and they're >all symmetics? Smells RISC like to me... Hm basically RISC in the traditional sense means: - many general purpose registers - few instructions which are simple enough to be executed in one cycle with pipelining - few addressing modes - one instruction length I'm sure I forgot something... >It's easy. There's no x86-centric code in the srcz80.c module. It knows >nothing of the target processor. It only passes in hints to the >target layer - which does all the work. Yes, we have to keep it clean! >I doubt that the ARM's caches combined are bigger than the Pentiums. It's even smaller (and no L2 cache at all :-[), but it has a far higher associativity. >And >here we're talking about decommiting registers to memory and back again >when we've run out of registers, so it'll most definitely be in data >cache. But if you have several recompilations of the same block of code >for different register usage, the breadth of the use of the cache will be >in the instruction cache, and will probably be huge. I'll rethink that matter but I guess you're right. >In most games it is, yes. I could send you a version of Retrocade with my >interrupts off by 5 T-States. ;-) Hehe, that awful? ;-) >> I thought his name is "Torvalds" ;-) >Whatever. ;-) Finnish names can be a bit awkward... >Hype, hype, hype, and more hype. People lambast Microsoft and everyone >else for it, yet it's OK for For whom? >No offense taken. Good. I just wanted to give some constructive criticism. For other approaches it might have been deconstructive ;-) >The one thing to keep in mind is that "pro" and "con" >are relative when knowing what you're recompiling. ;-) That's my basic >point. A generalized approach will not solve everything optimally, so it >calls for splitting things up a bit and taking slightly different >approaches depending upon what you're recompiling. I'll have to work less on theories to realise that by myself. Until then I'll just have to believe you. >You solve the big model stuff, Well, I think of it, but nothing solved yet... >I'll solve the small model stuff, and >together we'll kick some major ass. How's that sound? ;-) Sounds great! ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 01:21:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA72576 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:21:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BE2F0C.712F4DE0@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 10:06:20 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CA2F443968AB8D4506F7DAD1" Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CA2F443968AB8D4506F7DAD1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quite a interesting discussion :) Today I have no time to read all messages, perhaps tomorrow I will do some comments. I wrote yesterday a kind of document that shows how bad I have understood your emulation approach ;). More interesting perhaps, will be the algorithm for self-modifying code, advantatges/disadvantatges are too small and need more work. I think this mails I still haven't readed (only a fast look) would be useful. Victor Moya P.S: I send it in an attachment because when I copy it to the mail it's looking ugly. --------------CA2F443968AB8D4506F7DAD1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="Neil_Z80_recompiler.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Neil_Z80_recompiler.txt" A New Emulation Implementation Light (NEIL) for a Z80 dynamic recompilator. (Sorry for the joke ;) OK, I'm going to make a summary about how I think it works your new Z80 recompiler core. First, use of registers: AH => F AL => A BX => HL CX => DC DX => DE EDI => Number of cycles resting to execute EBP => pointer the Z80 memory ESI => free for use * High word of AX, BX, CX, DX is CLEAR (0). All other Z80 registers: the secondary register block (A', F',...), stack pointer (SP), program counter (PC), index registers (IX, IY) and all others registers (I, R, IMx, ...) are in memory variables. Memory is managed with memory maps. It works exactly as MZ80 core. A memory map for reading, another for writing. An I/O map for reading and writing. Format: a list of memory (or IO) regions {{start-address, end-address, pointer to function},{-1,-1,-1}} The code is supposed to be accessed directly (not with memory maps, only using an offset). An array for all 64KB Z80 memory space of pointers. Each instruction (identified by an address) translated has a pointer here to its translated code. I call it TransMap (Translation Map). A Translation Cache or Translation Buffer (TC) where is stored the translated code. Interface functions for the emulator: (correct names are in MZ80 core, I will search for them later) * BuildCpu(), or something like that, creates the structures needed for emulation of the CPU. * Reset(), makes a reset of CPU state. * FlushTranslationCache(), perhaps will be needed to empty all (or some) translations. * Functions to manage interruptions. * Functions to get, modify CPU state. * Exec(), executes a number of CPU cycles. Function Exec(T: number of cycles to execute) { RestingTime = T; (mov edi, T) while (RestingTime > 0) { if (TransMap[PC]!=NULL) jump(TransMap[PC]); else translate(PC); } } Some definitions: Terminal - Any instruction that unconditionally modifies the PC (ret, call, jmp, etc...) Nonterminal - Any instruction that can't or doesn't modify the PC directly Conditional terminal - Any instruction that could conditionally affect the PC translate(PC: beginning address for start compilation) { PR = PC; while(Z80mem[PR]!=Terminal) { pTrInstr = translate_Instruction(PR,TC); TransMap[PR] = pTrInstr; PR++; } pTrInstr = translate_terminal(PR,TC); TransMap[PR] = pTrInstr; end_block(TC); } Translate instruction from a starting address (PC) until you read a terminal instruction. Then you end block and return to main loop. This could be an approach (the one I think is more easy to understand). The one implemented by Neil is a recursive call that is a bit more difficult to understand (I think): Recompile(UINT32 u32PC) { while (NULL == RecompileMap[u32PC]) { if (data[u32PC] is a terminal or cond. terminal) { Recompile(u32PC); } EmitCover(); // Conditional terminals can be fixed up because by // the time the code gets here, it's already generated } // This will emit a code snippet for this entire block, also // filling in the RecompileMap array of pointers to recompiled // code. EmitTargetCodeForBlock(); } Well. This one means you translate instructions until you reach a terminal (or conditional terminal). The function calls itself to translate code pointed from terminal instruction and so on. I think I don't understand well when you end going down and when you end the block (perhaps when you find jmp, or ret instructions). The translation for a non-terminal instruction looks like this: (translate memory access) translate instruction |---- cycle count and test | . | . | . (more instructions translated) | . | . | ----> exit to main loop (PC = instruction PC) The translation for a terminal instruction looks like this: . . . . (translate memory access) (translate instruction) |---- cycle count and test ||--- get and test if destination address is translated || jump to translated destination address || . || . || . ||--> exit to main loop (PC = destination address) ----> exit to main loop (PC = term. instruction address) I think that translation of each instruction could be made using a translation function for each instruction (pointer to the function is provided by an opcode table like in an interpreter). Many of the instructions are only a copy to the TC of a 'static' x86 instruction (register to register instruction). Other instructions have to do some 'assembling'. Memory access is analyzed at translation time, if it's absolute addressing (or if you trace the address) it's implemented as a direct access to the Z80 memory or a call to a function handler. This is done looking at memory mapping for the address memory region. Indirect addressing means you have to inline a test for memory mapping (as is done in the interpreter). Advantages: * easy translation for jumps, call, block linking * very accurate timing * can support self-modifying code (see below) * easy, simple and fast Disadvantages: * too many jumps (you have to pray for P-II branch prediction work well) * uses a lot of memory * it's more difficult to implement a less accurate timing (jumps in the middle of blocks) * instructions are translated one by one. It's difficult to do intrablock optimization (for example M68000 emulation needs a good register allocation algorithm) How to improve the model: * emulation of larger memory spaces => more memory used, using like hash table structures * making a block based translation => you can think in 'extended' instruction kind approach. Problem would be jumps in the middle of blocks. A solution perhaps could be detranslating the block (marking in TransMap as not translated). This will enable do intrablock optimizations. * handle self-modifying code * less accurate timing (block based timing, see block based translation) * try to optimize number of jumps * use perhaps a return stack structure to track returns of functions and do faster 'ret' instructions. Use speculative indirect jumps. (More to think about this) Simple algorithm for self-modifying code: You have to modify a bit the array of translated addresses (TransMap). Now 0 means not translated, -1 (0xffffffff) means middle bytes of a translated instruction (instruction more than 1 byte long), other would be the translated address. You have to suppose the code will never jump in the middle of a translated instruction. You will want to have a memory map for self-modifying code test (perhaps the same memory map than for writing). Function that writes a byte in a region with self-modifying test enabled: write_self_mod_code(byte, address) { addr' = address; switch(TransMap[addr']) { case 0: // a not translated address memory_write(byte,address); break; case –1: // address in the middle of a translated instruction // search the instruction starting address for(;TransMap[addr']==-1;addr--); default: // you have the starting address for the modified // instruction. Write a jump to the main loop. // Set all modified bytes as not translated (nbm). nbm = write_jump_to_main_loop(addr') for(i=0;i a 'patch' jump to main loop is needed only in first modified instruction, so next addresses only have to set code state to not translated. --------------CA2F443968AB8D4506F7DAD1-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 01:42:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA72625 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:42:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:42:49 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >ISA? Please explain... > Instruction Set Architecture. > Now I'm also using lot's of these TLAs (three letter acronyms)... Ah, well it's your AR to assume I haven't RTFM'd, and make sure your POR will be to spell things out, otherwise it'll be a BFD! > For one device they mentioned that it was the fastest in > the test and also wrote down the clock speed, but do you think they > found it worth mentioning if it has a MIPS or SuperH processor?? It's an R4000 in the 105. ;-) That's all I care about! > >I've done some emulation work under it as well for my E-105. > Does it have a blue screen of death as well? ;-) Nope... it's quite solid, actually. I've had apps crash, but it has never taken down the system. Then again, Windows CE is a *COMPLETE REWRITE* from the ground up to run on palm sized PCs. It hasn't a line of Windows 95/98/NT/3.1 code in it. > Yeah, one problem is that inflational use of the term RISC as made, and > most don't know that it's only about architecture and not > implementation. So it doesn't matter if the Pentium is using RISC > features inside if you don't see it in the instruction set... It's multiple RISC processors emulating a CISC CPU. ;-) > >It is a CPU > >designed for graphics processing. For example, it (or a variant of it) > >used on the Viper 550 and I believe the Matrox G200 video cards. > Ah, so it's more like a DSP. It is a DSP. We affectionately call it "Big assed blitter chip". > >It has a built in blitter instruction that can do block moves, xors, > >pixel translation, and even has a *LINEDRAW* instruction! > Wow! That must be a bitch to emulate! No, it's easy! Linedraws are fairly braindead since they are spelled out how they work. > >No, no..... tweak the *APPROACH*, not the recompiler! My point is > >of creating 1 general approach, create 3 more specific approaches. > Sorry, I misunderstood you in that point... Glad we're clear on it now! ;-) > >Marble Madness - 00000000-0001ffff - Program ROM > > 00040000-0004ffff - Scratch RAM > > 00050000-000503ff - Sprite RAM > > 00050400-000507ff - Color RAM > > 00300000-03003fff - Slapstic (proteciton chip) > > 98000000-98ffffff - Controller I/O, etc... > So you only recompile the program ROM and have some special memory > handlers for the controller I/O rigth? Bingo. There's nothing to recompile in sprite RAM or controller I/O regions. Those are just memory handlers. You only recompile the program ROM - that's it! > >> It was more or less a joke that I mentioned the virtual table, > >> I think that the MIPS page table handling is ingenious. > >That same approach would work nicely on the Pentium's MMU, too. > I guess the Pentium has a special table walking hardware. Yes, and it's quite extensive. > thing about the MIPS is that the MMU is so primitive that it simply > throws a miss exception when it doesn't find the address translation in > the TLB. That's what the Pentium does, but it has a bunch of other options as well. > Everything else is done by the operating system, and it's > still fast. The problem about a single page table is that it takes a > lot of memory by itself, which is why many CPUs have a multi-level > access. MIPS also holds the whole page table in virtual memory so it > only needs memory for the parts that are really used ;-) In the Pentium, it's called a descriptor table, and you can have a zillion of them if you want. Just change the selector! > >Not to mention the ROM failure messages one gets when the ROM has been > >modified. ;-) > Hehe, how can progammers be this unfair to test if the ROM is really > unmodified? ;-) Yeah. What bastards. ;-) > >> But only until you someday decide you have to recompile from MIPS > >Aha! But then I'll change my approach... > I forgot how flexible you are in contrast to other dynarec authors! I can't bend over and touch my toes, so I guess I'm not *THAT* flexible. But I am a man who believes in designing the tool for the job rather than trying to bend the job around the tool. > >*NO SAY* in how the target layer generates code. It is *ENTIRELY* the > >target layer's decision as to where things go and how they're > >fact, I can create a module that uses your approachs and one that uses > >mine, and both of them would use the same source layer. > Should have taken a deeper look at the code before asking such > questions, heh? Yes! ;-) > >The target layer gives the ultimate flexibility. You can do anything > >want in the target layer. The source layer just passes hints. It > >do any register allocation at all! > That's absolutely how it should be! ;-) I know! ;-) > I knew I'd like your approach as soon as I heard some of it's features. Study the source code. > >I don't think the dynamic allocation of register and entry/exit at any > >point approach would work. I can't see a way to make it work. > I'm not talking about runtime but generation time dynamic allocation, > but even then it's complicated enough to match the cached registers of > two instructions from different blocks... Yes, and you'd have to create multiple of each. That'd be a buttload of memory. > >but have been optimized out, it recompiles that block in another area > >until it hits an address that hasn't been recompiled. You wind up > >a small bit of duplicated code, but it wouldn't be enough to worry > Do you want mark the optimised addresses in the pointer table to keep > track of it? Haven't thought that far ahead yet... I'll get back to you on it. > >Hm... I don't think so. What does it have, 28 instructions, and > >all symmetics? Smells RISC like to me... > Hm basically RISC in the traditional sense means: > - many general purpose registers > - few instructions which are simple enough to be executed in one cycle > with pipelining > - few addressing modes > - one instruction length Symmetric instruction set Well, the 68K is damned close in all areas (with the exception of the single cycle thing), but I don't believe that the single cycle rule has ever really applied. All the early RISC CPUs took longer than 1 cycle to execute (though they did take less than their CISC counterparts). > >when we've run out of registers, so it'll most definitely be in data > >cache. But if you have several recompilations of the same block of > >for different register usage, the breadth of the use of the cache will > >in the instruction cache, and will probably be huge. > I'll rethink that matter but I guess you're right. I've done a fairly extensive study on caches on the Pentium. I've had some nasty performance hits because I unroll things too much. Sparse execution is a time killer. > >In most games it is, yes. I could send you a version of Retrocade with > >interrupts off by 5 T-States. ;-) > Hehe, that awful? ;-) Yeah. It causes (in Galaga for example), bees to spin endlessly, aliens to fly through shots, stages to get stuck, etc... > >Hype, hype, hype, and more hype. People lambast Microsoft and everyone > >else for it, yet it's OK for > For whom? Sorry - it's OK for the Linux crew to do it. Hypocritical! > >calls for splitting things up a bit and taking slightly different > >approaches depending upon what you're recompiling. > I'll have to work less on theories to realise that by myself. Until > then I'll just have to believe you. Or convince yourself of it. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 01:43:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA72634 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:43:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:43:23 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38BE2F0C.712F4DE0@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I wrote yesterday a kind of document that shows how bad I have understood your > emulation approach ;). More interesting perhaps, will be the algorithm for > self-modifying code, advantatges/disadvantatges are too small and need more > work. I think this mails I still haven't readed (only a fast look) would be > useful. You're documenting things FOR me! Cool! ;-) I'll have a look... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 01:55:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA72678 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:55:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:55:42 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Note that I do intend on doing a writeup of how my recompiler works... My comments preceded by **: A New Emulation Implementation Light (NEIL) for a Z80 dynamic recompilator. (Sorry for the joke ;) ** Oh man... ;-) OK, I'm going to make a summary about how I think it works your new Z80 recompiler core. First, use of registers: AH => F AL => A BX => HL CX => DC DX => DE EDI => Number of cycles resting to execute EBP => pointer the Z80 memory ESI => free for use * High word of AX, BX, CX, DX is CLEAR (0). ** Should be "High word of EAX, EBX, ECX, EDX is clear" All other Z80 registers: the secondary register block (A', F',...), stack pointer (SP), program counter (PC), index registers (IX, IY) and all others registers (I, R, IMx, ...) are in memory variables. ** Correct. Memory is managed with memory maps. It works exactly as MZ80 core. A memory map for reading, another for writing. An I/O map for reading and writing. Format: ** Correct. You might also want to add that if it's not listed in the handler, it by default is RAM. An array for all 64KB Z80 memory space of pointers. Each instruction (identified by an address) translated has a pointer here to its translated code. I call it TransMap (Translation Map). ** Good name. I like! A Translation Cache or Translation Buffer (TC) where is stored the translated code. Interface functions for the emulator: (correct names are in MZ80 core, I will search for them later) * BuildCpu(), or something like that, creates the structures needed for emulation of the CPU. * Reset(), makes a reset of CPU state. * FlushTranslationCache(), perhaps will be needed to empty all (or some) translations. * Functions to manage interruptions. * Functions to get, modify CPU state. * Exec(), executes a number of CPU cycles. ** Kinda. I should probably send you the sources to my recompiler before you go too much farther on this... Function Exec(T: number of cycles to execute) { RestingTime = T; (mov edi, T) while (RestingTime > 0) { if (TransMap[PC]!=NULL) jump(TransMap[PC]); else translate(PC); } } ** Bingo! Some definitions: Terminal - Any instruction that unconditionally modifies the PC (ret, call, jmp, etc...) Nonterminal - Any instruction that can't or doesn't modify the PC directly Conditional terminal - Any instruction that could conditionally affect the PC ** Correct translate(PC: beginning address for start compilation) { PR = PC; while(Z80mem[PR]!=Terminal) { pTrInstr = translate_Instruction(PR,TC); TransMap[PR] = pTrInstr; PR++; } pTrInstr = translate_terminal(PR,TC); TransMap[PR] = pTrInstr; end_block(TC); } ** Sorta. But instead it winds up creating a block list to recompile and calls the target layer in one big shot to recompile it. Translate instruction from a starting address (PC) until you read a terminal instruction. Then you end block and return to main loop. ** End the block, emit the actual code, deallocate the opcode structures and return to the main loop. This could be an approach (the one I think is more easy to understand). The one implemented by Neil is a recursive call that is a bit more difficult to understand (I think): Recompile(UINT32 u32PC) { while (NULL == RecompileMap[u32PC]) { if (data[u32PC] is a terminal or cond. terminal) { Recompile(u32PC); } EmitCover(); // Conditional terminals can be fixed up because by // the time the code gets here, it's already generated } // This will emit a code snippet for this entire block, also // filling in the RecompileMap array of pointers to recompiled // code. EmitTargetCodeForBlock(); } ** Yes. This is stage 2 of recompiler development... Well. This one means you translate instructions until you reach a terminal (or conditional terminal). The function calls itself to translate code pointed from terminal instruction and so on. I think I don't understand well when you end going down and when you end the block (perhaps when you find jmp, or ret instructions). ** If you find a "ret" instruction of any type or you find a sequence that runs into a priorly recompiled block. The translation for a non-terminal instruction looks like this: (translate memory access) translate instruction ** These two above are really the same thing |---- cycle count and test | . | . | . (more instructions translated) | . | . | ----> exit to main loop (PC = instruction PC) The translation for a terminal instruction looks like this: I think that translation of each instruction could be made using a translation function for each instruction (pointer to the function is provided by an opcode table like in an interpreter). Many of the instructions are only a copy to the TC of a 'static' x86 instruction (register to register instruction). ** I'm getting lost, here. Perhaps it's a lack of sleep... I think you're saying it works exactly like it really works, but I'm not sure... Other instructions have to do some 'assembling'. Memory access is analyzed at translation time, if it's absolute addressing (or if you trace the address) it's implemented as a direct access to the Z80 memory or a call to a function handler. This is done looking at memory mapping for the address memory region. Indirect addressing means you have to inline a test for memory mapping (as is done in the interpreter). ** Precisely Advantages: * easy translation for jumps, call, block linking * very accurate timing * can support self-modifying code (see below) * easy, simple and fast Disadvantages: * too many jumps (you have to pray for P-II branch prediction work well) ** If you want exact timing, you do a sub/js, but that won't be a big deal. The Pentium will eat it for lunch. If you don't need exact timing, you'll only have a timing jump at the point of a terminal/conditional terminal. So I'm not sure why this is a big deal. * uses a lot of memory ** It does? * it's more difficult to implement a less accurate timing (jumps in the middle of blocks) ** No... not so. * instructions are translated one by one. It's difficult to do intrablock optimization (for example M68000 emulation needs a good register allocation algorithm) ** Not true. The weight of this process lies exclusively on the target layer. The source layer hands the target layer a complete list of thigns to recompile, and it can make its own pre-decisions. How to improve the model: * emulation of larger memory spaces => more memory used, using like hash table structures * making a block based translation => you can think in 'extended' instruction kind approach. Problem would be jumps in the middle of blocks. A solution perhaps could be detranslating the block (marking in TransMap as not translated). This will enable do intrablock optimizations. * handle self-modifying code * less accurate timing (block based timing, see block based translation) ** As I mentioned, this is already an option. * try to optimize number of jumps ** This falls out of doing timing groupings. * use perhaps a return stack structure to track returns of functions and do faster 'ret' instructions. Use speculative indirect jumps. (More to think about this) ** I thought about this, but you must retain your own stack as well as your emulated stack. Lots of programs push junk on it and return. Simple algorithm for self-modifying code: You have to modify a bit the array of translated addresses (TransMap). Now 0 means not translated, -1 (0xffffffff) means middle bytes of a translated instruction (instruction more than 1 byte long), other would be the translated address. You have to suppose the code will never jump in the middle of a translated instruction. ** Perhaps using the top two bits would be better. You still have to have the jump-to address. Problems: * dead code (old translations), non recoverable memory usage * redivided blocks, generates one-instruction blocks * retranslations (sequential writes) * more memory is needed ** These are all great ideas. I'll have to stew on them when I'm more awake, but they look great. Time for sleep........ -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 02:53:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA72947 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 02:53:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BE4486.F1E63EF1@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 11:37:58 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > You're documenting things FOR me! Cool! ;-) > I'm documenting all emulation techniques I put on my hands ;) I'm thinking to start a complet emulation documentation project (perhaps now is only a one-person project, but if some one wants help me ...) and try to compile all information it's needed for emulate a machine (this includes CPU emulation techniques: interpreting, dinamic recompiling, your recompiler ;), perhaps static recompiling [but about this I think there aren't emulators :(]; graphics and sound emulation: the differents graphics methods and how to implement them; sound, others ...; perhaps make a repository about the different machines architectures [as MAME but in doc]). I think is too big for a person, perhaps too big for emulation world in fact :) If you want I could make an *official* documentation of your emulator. Just say me what do you want. I will read your comments and I will answer tomorrow. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 10:44:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA74070 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:44:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 18:31:26 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Victor, I'm glad that you're still with us, since discussions between more than two people can be more interesting. >Quite a interesting discussion :) Indeed. Even if it sometimes seems as if Neil and I have totally different opinions, we still share the same basic ideas and only do some brainstorming about the details. >Today I have no time to read all messages, perhaps tomorrow I will do some >comments. Your contributions are welcome. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 10:44:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA74078 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:19:51 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ah, well it's your AR to assume I haven't RTFM'd, and make sure your POR >will be to spell things out, otherwise it'll be a BFD! I don't understand every bit but I agree ;-) >It's an R4000 in the 105. ;-) That's all I care about! SuperH isn't that bad either, actually highly influenced by MIPS. >Nope... it's quite solid, actually. I've had apps crash, but it has never >taken down the system. Then again, Windows CE is a *COMPLETE REWRITE* from >the ground up to run on palm sized PCs. It hasn't a line of Windows >95/98/NT/3.1 code in it. Wow, stable Microsoft software! Wait - isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) >It is a DSP. We affectionately call it "Big assed blitter chip". Sounds "fat assed" to me ;-) >Bingo. There's nothing to recompile in sprite RAM or controller I/O >regions. Those are just memory handlers. You only recompile the program >ROM - that's it! BTW, what is the scratch RAM for, apart from scores? >> Hehe, how can progammers be this unfair to test if the ROM is really >> unmodified? ;-) >Yeah. What bastards. ;-) They must have assumed that some geeks want to emulate the system someday... >I can't bend over and touch my toes, so I guess I'm not *THAT* flexible. Hehe, I meant flexible in mind and with a flexible approach ;-) >Study the source code. As you wish, my master ;-) >> Do you want mark the optimised addresses in the pointer table to keep >> track of it? >Haven't thought that far ahead yet... I'll get back to you on it. Ok, we can discuss various solutions when you get there. >Symmetric instruction set I think that's not part of the original RISC definition, but it'll fit as well. >Well, the 68K is damned close in all areas (with the exception of the >single cycle thing), but I don't believe that the single cycle rule has >ever really applied. It also has a variable instruction length. >All the early RISC CPUs took longer than 1 cycle to >execute (though they did take less than their CISC counterparts). I think MIPS I was quite close, with only jumps, memory accesses, and mul/div needing more than one cycle - with a pipeline of course, otherwise you'll have at least 3 cycles. BTW, most RISC processors drop some of these features: - TriCore has address and data registers like 68K - TriCore and M32R have two different instruction lengths which can be mixed, unlike ARM/Thumb or MIPS/MIPS16 - SuperH has about as much addressing modes as the 68K - PowerPC has so many instructions that someone said it should be called "Reduced Instruction Set Complexity" instead. >I've done a fairly extensive study on caches on the Pentium. I've had some >nasty performance hits because I unroll things too much. Sparse execution >is a time killer. Hmm, the StrongARM has 2 separate caches with 512 cache lines (16K, 32- way associative) with 32 bytes each. In the best case the whole MIPS register file (without special registers) will fit into 4 cache lines, not bad. If many of the statically uncached registers are used many cache accesses are needed, which slows down the emulation speed and also needs more code. Eg. with a direct cover instruction but no cached register a whole cache line would be needed for one translated instruction (2 loads + 1 cover + 1 store)*32 bit = 32 bytes. This is sub-optimal because there is a load delay between the second load and the cover instruction. Also when the result of this operation is used in the next instruction you get another delay because the store isn't ready yet. With register allocation you get a few loads in the beginning of the block, maybe a few swaps in the middle, and a batch of stores in the end. When the block has to be left right in the middle you'll have to save the currently cached registers (about 6, which will be additional 24 bytes to the peer block of each instruction). Since the peer blocks are only executed once at the exit they won't be cached for long anyway. Also note that StrongARM caches use a pseudo random replacement (because it's easier than LRU) so you might have to load the registers from memory even if you use it all the time, and it will be memory indeed since the StrongARM has no L2 cache. Sometimes the PA8500 doesn't seem that bad: 512K L1-I-cache + 1MB L1-D- cache! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 2 11:39:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA74223 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:39:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:24:31 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > An array for all 64KB Z80 memory space of pointers. Each >instruction (identified by an address) translated has a pointer here >to its translated code. I call it TransMap (Translation Map). >** Good name. I like! Actually most approaches use the term "translation lookaside buffer" because the address translation it does is similar to that of a MMUs TLB. But I agree with Neil that for his approach the name TransMap is more precise. > I think that translation of each instruction could be made using a >translation function for each instruction (pointer to the function is >provided by an opcode table like in an interpreter). Many of the >instructions are only a copy to the TC of a 'static' x86 instruction >(register to register instruction). >** I'm getting lost, here. Perhaps it's a lack of sleep... I think you're >saying it works exactly like it really works, but I'm not sure... You're right Neil, you already do it that way. There is a code emitter function for each instruction and pointers to these functions are collected in an array sorted by opcode number. > * too many jumps (you have to pray for P-II branch prediction > work well) That's what I thought at first, but it doesn't really matter. The Pentium uses dynamic branch prediction with a branch target buffer, but I guess on the first run it still has to rely on static rules. These rules are normally: 1) backward branches are assumed taken (to speed up loops) 2) forward branches are assumed not taken. For Neils code this means that every jump to the peer blocks at the end is assumed not taken and the CPU runs right through the code till you get a timer underflow. Then you get a slight crash due to the jump, but you'll have to jump back to the exit block code just two instructions later anyway, so it doesn't make much difference. Since several instructions are executed before you have to leave the block this method works much better than it looks. Actually I think that static branch prediction would be even better in this case... > * uses a lot of memory Take a look at template solutions like NEStra and you'll see that Neil's dynamic code generator produces relatively few code per translated instruction. The memory handlers take up quite some memory but having one per register speeds up memory accesses and you only need these once. > * it's more difficult to implement a less accurate timing > (jumps in the middle of blocks) >** No... not so. I think Victor is right. Since you'd only decrease your counter every few instructions with inacurate timing, you could be loosing some cycles when a jump to the middle of a block is performed. > * instructions are translated one by one. It's difficult to do > intrablock optimization (for example M68000 emulation needs a > good register allocation algorithm) >** Not true. The weight of this process lies exclusively on the target >layer. The source layer hands the target layer a complete list of thigns >to recompile, and it can make its own pre-decisions. Optimisation is even easier because all instructions of a block are stored decoded in a linear structure. When optimisation *is* done this hinders jumps to any memory location, since the instruction residing there might have been combined with the preceding one. > * emulation of larger memory spaces => more memory used, using > like hash table structures That's one of our favourite discussion subject it seems ;-) > * making a block based translation => you can think in > 'extended' instruction kind approach. The approach is already block based, as the source layer decodes the whole block first and then passes the collected information to the translation layer. Only the translation layer isn't optimised yet. > Problem would be jumps > in the middle of blocks. Intra-block jumps are no problem at all since you have all the information you need during translation time. > A solution perhaps could be > detranslating the block (marking in TransMap as not > translated). This will enable do intrablock optimizations. Jumps to the middle of other blocks can be a problem when you want to use block optimisations, right. > * handle self-modifying code For most machines Neil deals with at the moment this is easy: if the code is in the ROM area it cannot be self-modifying. For more RAM based machines you'll have to mark address in the TransMap that are written to. > * less accurate timing (block based timing, see block based > translation) That's how I started my theory, but Neil's timing sensitive code is very nice indeed. > * try to optimize number of jumps I'm not sure if this is really necessary (the 'sub' needs more processor time than the following 'js'), but this is already reduced when less timing code is used. >Problems: > * dead code (old translations), non recoverable memory usage Could be done by keeping track of allocated blocks in a linked list. > * redivided blocks, generates one-instruction blocks This should happen very rarely I guess. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 3 02:24:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA76977 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 02:24:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38BF66C1.5ACB735A@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 08:16:17 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, What an insteresting discussion this lasts days. Not you thing so? I think my 'disadvantatges' were too weaks, sorry, I would have to work on them a little harder. But I spent most of time in the self-modifying algorithm. And It's hard to find problems to your approach. Your discussion with Michael ressembles a lot the one we are getting, but I think with a better english :). It seems Michael and I are starting from the same theory approach. In fact I'm feeling a little 'green' with a people with the experience of both of you. I'm really just started to learn about dynamic recompilation, only this two last months I have been really working on it. I have an advice for you Michael, I think Neil has beaten us, I'm thinking in surrender ;) About 68000, do you really think is a RISC CPU? A RISC CPU, as it's teached in my university, has to have a lot of registers (it has them), a small set of addressing modes (68000 has a lot, more than a x86 one!), fixed instruction lenght (68000 don't), and 'simple' instruction (watch some ugly data move instruction 68000 has ;). Really, I talk about 68000 as a RISC too, when my teachers aren't near, but it's because compared with x86 has a lot of registers, but in others aspects it's more CISC than x86. Talking about CISC machines, what about a VAX, perhaps there are someone so crazy to emulate it ;) (I don't know much about this machine, but we had one in university until two years ago, and some teachers saied it had instruction for polynomies calculation!). In any case, with this MMU/SIMMD instruction nowadays it's no sense to talk about CISC or RISC I think. Is it true there are games go verify his ROM for modifications? Why do the programmers do that? Because for verify a bad ROM, a bad leaked ROM, or perhaps the knew we would want to emulate this games some time later and they put it to bother us a little more ;) Ok, lets going on real work. First I want to talk a little about 'optimization' in dynamic recompilation. What optimization do we need? And why do optimize? 1) optimize the native core. I think this in many cases is a no sense. If we are talking about emulation world (arcade machines and consoles) the programs are made in to main language: assembler, which will be hard to optimize (in that times they really work on optimization) or in C and I don't think that a little optimizer in a recompiler could beat a static C compiler. So we don't want to do this kind of optimizations. 2) reduce our translation overhead This is the one we are really interested. A first translation could be very slow. So we want to try to make some optimizations. This optimizations could be: try to have a better register usage (this make a lot of sense in RISC to CISC translations), only evaluate flags when really needed, improve memory access, use a less accurate timming and perhaps some others minor 'intrablock' optimizations. I didn't see your two layers approach: a source level for decoding and a target level emit code. This change a lot many things. The target level makes your approach very flexible. You are using an intermediate representation, which are not used in Shade like docs (they think this will be to slow to implement). I don't know if this is faster or not than don't use it, if it's better or not .... In any case makes your recompiler a lot of more flexible. I have to think about this. I think that we have to try to do now, it isn't to try to beat your approach but to extend it. This are some extensions I think could be done: 1) sparse(larger) memory spaces: this only will happen in computers so I think if we trap the system call that loads the programs (and we will want to do this for flushing the old translation code too) and take a look at the executable we could know what it's code and what data (I think this will be aplicable to many exec. formats in large computers). And if we can't do that we have to think that code is less than data, and in some OS there are many code that it isn't used all time (or never used). We could try to dynamically expand translation memory map to this regions we have used code. 2) support a 'block-based translation' (this means in target level, not in source level). I think this will be a lot of easy and we could do intra-block optimizations. If you readed about the self-modifying algorithm you have the answer. A memory address can be in three states: not translated, translated(beginning of an instruction/block) and translated (in the middle of an instruction/block). This info would be in the translation map or in another map which hold only the state (the same, but only a byte in lenght). We will do as there would be a kind of super-instructions, formed by a sequence of native instructions. When you detect intra-block translated address you have to as in the self-modifying algorithm, mark all block as not translated and start a new translation from the jumping address. I think there are many I don't understand very well about your emulator. Perhaps when code will be released to us ... Too long mail, I think :), but I'm been working on this all this evening. I hope would be useful. I will try to fix the doc I sent yesterday this weekend. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 3 05:25:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA77343 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 05:25:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 14:04:22 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I think my 'disadvantatges' were too weaks, sorry, I would have to work on them a >little harder. But I spent most of time in the self-modifying algorithm. And It's >hard to find problems to your approach. Yes, Neil's approach is very water proof ;-) That's why it's so interesting to discuss about it because I have to find the small leaks (if there are any) and don't have to criticise some big holes! >Your discussion with Michael ressembles a lot the one we are getting, but I think >with a better english :). My English is far from perfect, and as long as we can understand what you mean it keeps the talk going. Actually I think your English is better than that of some American guys writing in slang where I don't understand 50% of the words. And if Neil and I had to perform the discussion in Spanish you would simply die laughing ;-) >It seems Michael and I are starting from the same theory approach. That's what I noticed too. Take a machine with meany registers and do an optimised block translation with register allocation. >In fact I'm feeling a little 'green' with a people with the experience >of both of you. I'm really just started to learn about dynamic recompilation, only >this two last months I have been really working on it. If you're 'green' than I must be 'yellow' since you already know many things I didn't learn that long ago and you have some ideas I haven't thought of yet. But you took the right decision to take part in this discussion, I think you'll learn much more about dynamic recompilation. Neil has a very cool approach and I only see the tip of the iceberg and even I know some tricks you won't find in any document. >I have an advice for you Michael, I think Neil has beaten us, I'm thinking in >surrender ;) I was never fighting Neil, so I don't have to surrender. I'll just join the successful party ;-) >About 68000, do you really think is a RISC CPU? Nope, it isn't, but Neil means that it's more RISC-like than other CPUs, which might be due to the fact that it's one of the best designs I know. >A RISC CPU, as it's teached in my >university, has to have a lot of registers (it has them), That should be lots of general purpose registers, but a relatively new RISC CPU called TriCore has address and data registers like the 68000. >a small set of addressing >modes (68000 has a lot, more than a x86 one!), There are many RISCs with just one memory addressing mode (MIPS, Alpha) but there is also SuperH, which has about as many addressing modes as the 68K! >fixed instruction lenght (68000 don't), ARM introduced an additional instruction set called Thumb, which has only 16-bit instructions while ARM still has 32-bit. You can change between the two modes with a special branch instruction. TriCore (Infineon) and M32R (Mitsubishi) have gone further. These are able to really *mix* 32-bit and 16-bit instructions! >and 'simple' instruction (watch some ugly data move instruction 68000 has >;). Some RISCs like ARM, M-Core, PowerPC have loads/stores for multiple registers, and ARMs LDM/STM really work like the 68K MOVEM instruction. >Really, I talk about 68000 as a RISC too, when my teachers aren't near, but >it's because compared with x86 has a lot of registers, but in others aspects it's >more CISC than x86. Right. The differences begin to melt. I think the trues RISC is the first MIPS generation. Now MIPS got so many further instructions that it became rather complex. >Talking about CISC machines, what about a VAX, perhaps there >are someone so crazy to emulate it ;) (I don't know much about this machine, but we >had one in university until two years ago, and some teachers saied it had >instruction for polynomies calculation!). Well, you could use form three registers up to three memory locations in a instruction, so the instruction length is very variable. >In any case, with this MMU/SIMMD instruction nowadays it's no sense to talk about >CISC or RISC I think. I guess you mean MMX and SIMD. Actually Intel used similar instructions in their first RISC the i860, but nobody was interested. When the finally included it in the Pentium they did so many commercials that the customer had to realise it. >Is it true there are games go verify his ROM for modifications? Why do the >programmers do that? Because for verify a bad ROM, a bad leaked ROM, or perhaps >the knew we would want to emulate this games some time later and they put it to >bother us a little more ;) Yes, that's true indeed. But you have to ask Neil for the reasons. >First I want to talk a little about 'optimization' in dynamic recompilation. What >optimization do we need? And why do optimize? The first question isn't that easy to aswer, but the second is: pure speed! One more question is: When is optimisation reasonable or would it even slow down the translation process that much for the optimised code being no benefit? > 1) optimize the native core. > I think this in many cases is a no sense. If we are talking about >emulation world (arcade machines and consoles) the programs are made in to main >language: assembler, which will be hard to optimize (in that times they really work >on optimization) or in C and I don't think that a little optimizer in a recompiler >could beat a static C compiler. So we don't want to do this kind of >optimizations. First of all, not every assembler programmer or compiler has to produce good code... And then you have the differences between the two machines. Eg. MIPS has some very primitive instructions which can be combined, but if you don't do it the translated code gets very large because these instructions don't exist and you have to simulate these. A small example: slt R1, R2, R3 # R1 = (R2 < R3) ? 1 : 0; bne R1, zero, offset # if (R1 != 0) PC += offset; Could be translated to ARM instruction per instruction as: cmp R2, R3 movlt R1, #1 movge R1, #0 cmp R1, #0 bne offset This is one compare too much. We can do better by remembering the result from the first 'instruction', meaning we set the status flags: cmp R2, R3 movlts R1, #1 movges R1, #0 bne offset If we knew that we don't need the result generated by 'slt' in R1 then we could even generate: cmp R2, R3 blt offset I guess you get the picture. Although this is a very extreme example in the translation from MIPS to ARM you'll be able to find several other cases for other processors. > 2) reduce our translation overhead > This is the one we are really interested. A first translation >could be very slow. So we want to try to make some optimizations. This >optimizations could be: try to have a better register usage (this make a lot of >sense in RISC to CISC translations), only evaluate flags when really needed, >improve memory access, use a less accurate timming and perhaps some others minor >'intrablock' optimizations. Have you read the document about the emulator Generator? At least it sounds like it. > I didn't see your two layers approach: a source level for decoding and a target >level emit code. This change a lot many things. The target level makes your >approach very flexible. You are using an intermediate representation, which are not >used in Shade like docs (they think this will be to slow to implement). I don't >know if this is faster or not than don't use it, if it's better or not .... In any >case makes your recompiler a lot of more flexible. I have to think about this. It uses a bit more memory but I don't think that it's much slower. I guess what the mean in Shade is a register transfer language as used in compilers. This will be slower since you'll have to build a tree from the analysed code just to flatten it again during generation, which is simply stupid. Neil uses a similar idea that I had: Analyse all instructions in a block and store the decode information in a sequential structure. With this structure passed the generator has a far better survey of the code in the block, is able to see all intra block jump targets, and can do better optimisation. Our ideas are different in the way that Neil uses the decoded source level instructions and I wanted to use some virtual processor instead to have a better abstraction and only have to write one generator for each host machine. Unfortunately it seems that it's rather impossible to design a virtual processor that keeps all the features from the source level while still providing good optimisation at the target level :-( > 1) sparse(larger) memory spaces: this only will happen in computers so I think >if we trap the system call that loads the programs (and we will want to do this for >flushing the old translation code too) and take a look at the executable we could >know what it's code and what data (I think this will be aplicable to many exec. >formats in large computers). And if we can't do that we have to think that code is >less than data, and in some OS there are many code that it isn't used all time (or >never used). We could try to dynamically expand translation memory map to this >regions we have used code. I'm not sure if this will work, but I'll think about it. > 2) support a 'block-based translation' (this means in target level, not in >source level). I think this will be a lot of easy and we could do intra-block >optimizations. If you readed about the self-modifying algorithm you have the >answer. A memory address can be in three states: not translated, >translated(beginning of an instruction/block) and translated (in the middle of an >instruction/block). This info would be in the translation map or in another map >which hold only the state (the same, but only a byte in lenght). We will do as >there would be a kind of super-instructions, formed by a sequence of native >instructions. When you detect intra-block translated address you have to as in the >self-modifying algorithm, mark all block as not translated and start a new >translation from the jumping address. I'd use different states: not translated, per-instruction translation, and optimised translation. Even with intra-block optimisation there will be enough instructions that can still function as a jump target so we just have to mark those which cannot be jumped at since they are optimised and the result would be non-deterministic. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 3 05:25:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA77351 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 05:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:19:51 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ah, well it's your AR to assume I haven't RTFM'd, and make sure your POR >will be to spell things out, otherwise it'll be a BFD! I don't understand every bit but I agree ;-) >It's an R4000 in the 105. ;-) That's all I care about! SuperH isn't that bad either, actually highly influenced by MIPS. >Nope... it's quite solid, actually. I've had apps crash, but it has never >taken down the system. Then again, Windows CE is a *COMPLETE REWRITE* from >the ground up to run on palm sized PCs. It hasn't a line of Windows >95/98/NT/3.1 code in it. Wow, stable Microsoft software! Wait - isn't that an oxymoron? ;-) >It is a DSP. We affectionately call it "Big assed blitter chip". Sounds "fat assed" to me ;-) >Bingo. There's nothing to recompile in sprite RAM or controller I/O >regions. Those are just memory handlers. You only recompile the program >ROM - that's it! BTW, what is the scratch RAM for, apart from scores? >> Hehe, how can progammers be this unfair to test if the ROM is really >> unmodified? ;-) >Yeah. What bastards. ;-) They must have assumed that some geeks want to emulate the system someday... >I can't bend over and touch my toes, so I guess I'm not *THAT* flexible. Hehe, I meant flexible in mind and with a flexible approach ;-) >Study the source code. As you wish, my master ;-) >> Do you want mark the optimised addresses in the pointer table to keep >> track of it? >Haven't thought that far ahead yet... I'll get back to you on it. Ok, we can discuss various solutions when you get there. >Symmetric instruction set I think that's not part of the original RISC definition, but it'll fit as well. >Well, the 68K is damned close in all areas (with the exception of the >single cycle thing), but I don't believe that the single cycle rule has >ever really applied. It also has a variable instruction length. >All the early RISC CPUs took longer than 1 cycle to >execute (though they did take less than their CISC counterparts). I think MIPS I was quite close, with only jumps, memory accesses, and mul/div needing more than one cycle - with a pipeline of course, otherwise you'll have at least 3 cycles. BTW, most RISC processors drop some of these features: - TriCore has address and data registers like 68K - TriCore and M32R have two different instruction lengths which can be mixed, unlike ARM/Thumb or MIPS/MIPS16 - SuperH has about as much addressing modes as the 68K - PowerPC has so many instructions that someone said it should be called "Reduced Instruction Set Complexity" instead. >I've done a fairly extensive study on caches on the Pentium. I've had some >nasty performance hits because I unroll things too much. Sparse execution >is a time killer. Hmm, the StrongARM has 2 separate caches with 512 cache lines (16K, 32- way associative) with 32 bytes each. In the best case the whole MIPS register file (without special registers) will fit into 4 cache lines, not bad. If many of the statically uncached registers are used many cache accesses are needed, which slows down the emulation speed and also needs more code. Eg. with a direct cover instruction but no cached register a whole cache line would be needed for one translated instruction (2 loads + 1 cover + 1 store)*32 bit = 32 bytes. This is sub-optimal because there is a load delay between the second load and the cover instruction. Also when the result of this operation is used in the next instruction you get another delay because the store isn't ready yet. With register allocation you get a few loads in the beginning of the block, maybe a few swaps in the middle, and a batch of stores in the end. When the block has to be left right in the middle you'll have to save the currently cached registers (about 6, which will be additional 24 bytes to the peer block of each instruction). Since the peer blocks are only executed once at the exit they won't be cached for long anyway. Also note that StrongARM caches use a pseudo random replacement (because it's easier than LRU) so you might have to load the registers from memory even if you use it all the time, and it will be memory indeed since the StrongARM has no L2 cache. Sometimes the PA8500 doesn't seem that bad: 512K L1-I-cache + 1MB L1-D- cache! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 3 05:26:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA77359 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 05:26:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:24:31 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > An array for all 64KB Z80 memory space of pointers. Each >instruction (identified by an address) translated has a pointer here >to its translated code. I call it TransMap (Translation Map). >** Good name. I like! Actually most approaches use the term "translation lookaside buffer" because the address translation it does is similar to that of a MMUs TLB. But I agree with Neil that for his approach the name TransMap is more precise. > I think that translation of each instruction could be made using a >translation function for each instruction (pointer to the function is >provided by an opcode table like in an interpreter). Many of the >instructions are only a copy to the TC of a 'static' x86 instruction >(register to register instruction). >** I'm getting lost, here. Perhaps it's a lack of sleep... I think you're >saying it works exactly like it really works, but I'm not sure... You're right Neil, you already do it that way. There is a code emitter function for each instruction and pointers to these functions are collected in an array sorted by opcode number. > * too many jumps (you have to pray for P-II branch prediction > work well) That's what I thought at first, but it doesn't really matter. The Pentium uses dynamic branch prediction with a branch target buffer, but I guess on the first run it still has to rely on static rules. These rules are normally: 1) backward branches are assumed taken (to speed up loops) 2) forward branches are assumed not taken. For Neils code this means that every jump to the peer blocks at the end is assumed not taken and the CPU runs right through the code till you get a timer underflow. Then you get a slight crash due to the jump, but you'll have to jump back to the exit block code just two instructions later anyway, so it doesn't make much difference. Since several instructions are executed before you have to leave the block this method works much better than it looks. Actually I think that static branch prediction would be even better in this case... > * uses a lot of memory Take a look at template solutions like NEStra and you'll see that Neil's dynamic code generator produces relatively few code per translated instruction. The memory handlers take up quite some memory but having one per register speeds up memory accesses and you only need these once. > * it's more difficult to implement a less accurate timing > (jumps in the middle of blocks) >** No... not so. I think Victor is right. Since you'd only decrease your counter every few instructions with inacurate timing, you could be loosing some cycles when a jump to the middle of a block is performed. > * instructions are translated one by one. It's difficult to do > intrablock optimization (for example M68000 emulation needs a > good register allocation algorithm) >** Not true. The weight of this process lies exclusively on the target >layer. The source layer hands the target layer a complete list of thigns >to recompile, and it can make its own pre-decisions. Optimisation is even easier because all instructions of a block are stored decoded in a linear structure. When optimisation *is* done this hinders jumps to any memory location, since the instruction residing there might have been combined with the preceding one. > * emulation of larger memory spaces => more memory used, using > like hash table structures That's one of our favourite discussion subject it seems ;-) > * making a block based translation => you can think in > 'extended' instruction kind approach. The approach is already block based, as the source layer decodes the whole block first and then passes the collected information to the translation layer. Only the translation layer isn't optimised yet. > Problem would be jumps > in the middle of blocks. Intra-block jumps are no problem at all since you have all the information you need during translation time. > A solution perhaps could be > detranslating the block (marking in TransMap as not > translated). This will enable do intrablock optimizations. Jumps to the middle of other blocks can be a problem when you want to use block optimisations, right. > * handle self-modifying code For most machines Neil deals with at the moment this is easy: if the code is in the ROM area it cannot be self-modifying. For more RAM based machines you'll have to mark address in the TransMap that are written to. > * less accurate timing (block based timing, see block based > translation) That's how I started my theory, but Neil's timing sensitive code is very nice indeed. > * try to optimize number of jumps I'm not sure if this is really necessary (the 'sub' needs more processor time than the following 'js'), but this is already reduced when less timing code is used. >Problems: > * dead code (old translations), non recoverable memory usage Could be done by keeping track of allocated blocks in a linked list. > * redivided blocks, generates one-instruction blocks This should happen very rarely I guess. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 3 05:26:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA77366 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 05:26:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Mail Problems Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:18:19 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, it seems that two of the mails didn't get through to the list. Since I had problems with the SMTP host before I sent these, I'll resent them now. Please excuse me if it should be only a delay and you receive the two messages twice. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 3 06:42:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA77584 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:42:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Slight correction Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:27:34 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I realised that it's simpler to write cmp R2, R3 movlt R1, #1 movge R1, #0 blt offset instead of cmp R2, R3 movlts R1, #1 movges R1, #0 bne offset And this is still not the correct translation for the MIPS code since MIPS has branch delay slots and the instruction following the branch is executed before the branch is taken. But I don't think that this harms the example that much... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 4 12:42:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA85437 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:42:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:42:02 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38BF66C1.5ACB735A@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > What an insteresting discussion this lasts days. Not you thing so? I certainly think so, but I was so slammed with work that I didn't have a chance to respond. This is the first time! > I think my 'disadvantatges' were too weaks, sorry, I would have to > work on them a little harder. But I spent most of time in the > self-modifying algorithm. And It's hard to find problems to your > approach. ;-) It's certainly not a one size fits all solution, and we need to make sure that no one's single idea becomes it. The approach we need to take should change depending upon our target. > Your discussion with Michael ressembles a lot the one we are getting, > but I think with a better english :). It seems Michael and I are > starting from the same theory approach. In fact I'm feeling a little > 'green' with a people with the experience of both of you. I'm really > just started to learn about dynamic recompilation, only this two last > months I have been really working on it. I started "thinking" about it in about July of last year and have worked with another individual who actually got a 34010 recompiler working. His approach was the "assemble the blocks" approach, which he and I squared off on. We also had some philisophical discussions in the approach that we didn't agree with, too, so we didn't wind up working together. I started the z80tox86 recompiler in November, put it aside for a couple of months, and picked it up again. > I have an advice for you Michael, I think Neil has beaten us, I'm > thinking in surrender ;) No, no, no... there's no surrender here! The only thing you should do is weigh the pros & cons of all of our ideas and fit them to the type of code that's being executed. > instruction for polynomies calculation!). In any case, with this > MMU/SIMMD instruction nowadays it's no sense to talk about CISC or > RISC I think. Is it true there are games go verify his ROM for > modifications? Just about all of them do that. They'll either let you continue to run or else will > Why do the programmers do that? Because these are embedded systems with ROMs that go bad, and this is a sure fire way to identify it something screwed up. > bad ROM, a bad leaked ROM, or perhaps the knew we would want to > emulate this games some time later and they put it to bother us a > little more ;) But if we do our emulation right, it'll work great! ;-) > First I want to talk a little about 'optimization' in dynamic > recompilation. What optimization do we need? And why do optimize? Because we want it to run as fast as possible. That is the whole reason for dynamic recompilation! > 1) optimize the native core. > I think this in many cases is a no sense. If we are > talking about emulation world (arcade machines and consoles) the > programs are made in to main language: assembler, which will be hard > to optimize (in that times they really work on optimization) or in C > and I don't think that a little optimizer in a recompiler could beat a > static C compiler. So we don't want to do this kind of optimizations. I think the answer to this is "it depends". For example, a game like Galaga uses three Z80s. There isn't 3 Z80s worth of work in the game. If you look at a lot of the code, there's opportunity for improvement on the source code, so we shouldn't rule it out. You do, however, wind up running in to sequences of code that are "groupable": 5B6: LD A,(HL) 5B7: RRCA 5B8: RRCA 5B9: RRCA 5BA: RRCA 5BB: INC HL 5BC: LD (HL),A That can be reduced to: ror [ebp+ebx], 4 inc ebx mov al, [ebp+ebx] Instead of: mov al, [ebp+ebx] ror al, 1 ror al, 1 ror al, 1 ror al, 1 inc ebx mov [ebp+ebx], al You'll find many other examples like this in "real" code, too. > 2) reduce our translation overhead > This is the one we are really interested. A first > translation could be very slow. So we want to try to make some > optimizations. This optimizations could be: try to have a better > register usage (this make a lot of sense in RISC to CISC > translations), only evaluate flags when really needed, improve memory > access, use a less accurate timming and perhaps some others minor > 'intrablock' optimizations. I'm not sure what is meant by reducing the translation overhead. Right now the blocks get recompiled so quickly that it doesn't even create a pause in the execution that I can tell. But yes, register usage can do a 1:1 mapping on high register CPUs. But I don't see the "register swapping" approach as being viable in any circumstances. > I didn't see your two layers approach: a source level for decoding > and a target level emit code. This change a lot many things. The > target level makes your approach very flexible. You are using an > intermediate representation, which are not used in Shade like docs > (they think this will be to slow to implement). Actually, I'm not using an intermediate representation. I think that'll be too slow, and certainly less optimal. In this case, you have a source layer that deals with all the z80 specific stuff. In the target layer, that knows specifically about the z80 and emits code for it. So you have a free form way of emitting code. > I don't know if this > is faster or not than don't use it, if it's better or not .... In any > case makes your recompiler a lot of more flexible. I have to think > about this. Yes, it's more flexible. The only drawback is that you have to basically rewrite a lot of the target layer each time you do it, but things like the opcode emitter are used across all target layers. > I think that we have to try to do now, it isn't to try to beat your > approach but to extend it. This are some extensions I think could be > done: No, you should still try to beat the approach! > it isn't used all time (or never used). We could try to dynamically > expand translation memory map to this regions we have used code. The approach we'll use for dynamically recompiling computer systems and whatnot will be very different from my approaches so far. > 2) support a 'block-based translation' (this means in target > level, not in source level). I think this will be a lot of easy and > we could do intra-block optimizations. If you readed about the > self-modifying algorithm you have the answer. A memory address can be > in three states: not translated, translated(beginning of an > instruction/block) and translated (in the middle of an > instruction/block). That would require some sort of "status" byte rather than a recompiled address.. Or, you could give it a magic # of sorts. > I think there are many I don't understand very well about your > emulator. Perhaps when code will be released to us ... Have a look at it in its current state. Keep this private! http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip That's the whole chalupa for what I have right now. Have a look, and we can have a basis of chatting about it. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 4 13:31:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA85638 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:31:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:31:04 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > And if Neil and I had to perform the discussion in Spanish you would > simply die laughing ;-) Yeah. I don't think Babelfish would do too good of a job on technical translations to Spansih from English. ;-) > >I have an advice for you Michael, I think Neil has beaten us, I'm > thinking in > >surrender ;) > I was never fighting Neil, so I don't have to surrender. I'll just join > the successful party ;-) Yeah! Everyone gets trashed! ;-) > I guess you mean MMX and SIMD. Actually Intel used similar instructions > in their first RISC the i860, but nobody was interested. Actually, that's not true. Just about every HP printer (and lots of others) use i860 and i960 CPUs. The reason (and I happen to know this because I was told this by the head of the CPU division at Intel personally) for the i860 not getting penetration was that they didn't want to confuse the marketplace nor compete against their flagship product (at the time, the 386). > >Is it true there are games go verify his ROM for modifications? Why > >programmers do that? Because for verify a bad ROM, a bad leaked ROM, > >the knew we would want to emulate this games some time later and they > >bother us a little more ;) > Yes, that's true indeed. But you have to ask Neil for the reasons. In short, spotting bad ROM images in self test modes is the reason. > One more question is: When is optimisation reasonable or would it even > slow down the translation process that much for the optimised code > being no benefit? I don't think the recompilation is really that big of a deal. Even with 128K of code to recompile, that doesn't take very long. > First of all, not every assembler programmer or compiler has to produce > good code... Yes, and what you'll find is more often than not, they produce *CRAPPY* code and the hardware must be more complex to offset it. > It uses a bit more memory but I don't think that it's much slower. But it only uses more memory in bursts. The recompilation process on a per-block basis has a lot of memory getting allocated andfreed. Oh - I guess you're referring to the 256K jump table. ;-) > Neil uses a similar idea that I had: Analyse all instructions in a > block and store the decode information in a sequential structure. With > this structure passed the generator has a far better survey of the code > in the block, is able to see all intra block jump targets, and can do > better optimisation. More to the point, the source layer passes in flag "hints" on if a given block should even bother generating flag information. > Our ideas are different in the way that Neil uses the decoded source > level instructions and I wanted to use some virtual processor instead > to have a better abstraction and only have to write one generator for > each host machine. Unfortunately it seems that it's rather impossible > to design a virtual processor that keeps all the features from the > source level while still providing good optimisation at the target > level :-( Bingo. It does make the translation process easier and all one would have to do to support a new source CPU would be to create a source layer for it, but the drawbacks are that it's too generalized. > I'd use different states: not translated, per-instruction translation, > and optimised translation. Even with intra-block optimisation there > will be enough instructions that can still function as a jump target so > we just have to mark those which cannot be jumped at since they are > optimised and the result would be non-deterministic. Now we'll have to have another 64K array to figure out which addresses have been translated. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 6 00:39:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA91190 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C36AFC.8DCFF829@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 09:23:25 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > No, no, no... there's no surrender here! The only thing you should do is > weigh the pros & cons of all of our ideas and fit them to the type of code > that's being executed. > It was a kind of joke :) > I'm not sure what is meant by reducing the translation overhead. Right now > the blocks get recompiled so quickly that it doesn't even create a pause > in the execution that I can tell. > > > I mean overhead in the translated code, non optimized translated code. I'm not talking about recompilation overhead. > Have a look at it in its current state. Keep this private! > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip > > That's the whole chalupa for what I have right now. Have a look, and we > can have a basis of chatting about it. > It seems it doesn't work, perhaps is my university server that is crashing all time ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 6 00:41:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA91210 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:41:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:41:19 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C36AFC.8DCFF829@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Have a look at it in its current state. Keep this private! > > > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip > > > > That's the whole chalupa for what I have right now. Have a look, and we > > can have a basis of chatting about it. > It seems it doesn't work, perhaps is my university server that is crashing all time Try it again. I forgot to move the file into position. ;-( -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 6 01:04:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA91256 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:04:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C370ED.47520F90@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 09:48:45 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > > The first question isn't that easy to aswer, but the second is: pure > speed! > One more question is: When is optimisation reasonable or would it even > slow down the translation process that much for the optimised code > being no benefit? > I think optimisations is useful for code which is executed many times: loops and procedures. Another question cuold be perhaps if a program in an emulated machine will be running hours or days or will be running only a few minutes. In first case you can spend some more time doing optimizations. I think the only thing we can do to know what level of optimization we can do is to do some code and try it. > First of all, not every assembler programmer or compiler has to produce > good code... I think in arcade and consoles the coding is a little better done than in nowadays computers, perhaps not ... And I think the code must be really bad for a translator to optimize it. > > And then you have the differences between the two machines. Eg. MIPS > has some very primitive instructions which can be combined, but if you > don't do it the translated code gets very large because these > instructions don't exist and you have to simulate these. A small > example: Oh ..., I missed this. > > Have you read the document about the emulator Generator? At least it > sounds like it. > No. > Our ideas are different in the way that Neil uses the decoded source > level instructions and I wanted to use some virtual processor instead > to have a better abstraction and only have to write one generator for > each host machine. Unfortunately it seems that it's rather impossible > to design a virtual processor that keeps all the features from the > source level while still providing good optimisation at the target > level :-( What do you mean with a virtual processor? A three layers approach: decoding, translation to the virtual processor and translation to the target processor. Or perhaps the Ardi's approach, using a virtuals opcodes for non native translation and use a kind of threaded interpreter for execute them. I think using the three layer approach can improve retargetability but will be slower. And the first time you build the recompiler you will have to do more coding. If you aren't going to do the recompiler for more than a target machine will be too work for nothing. And I think the work needed for build a port to another target processor could be almost the same than in a two layer approach. In my university are working in a similar approach (but in static translation) and now seems they are getting too work. > > I'm not sure if this will work, but I'll think about it. > Some implementation could be something like this: build a two levels indirection. We can have a map for pages of memory, a kind of PageMap. Each item in PageMap will be a NULL pointer if there isn't translated code in this page or a pointer to a TransMap for the page. The testing for translated code will be first look at PageMap for the address of the page TransMap and then look at the TransMap. Perhaps some of this can be done in recompilation time and only look at the page TransMap and use PageMap in recompile time. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 6 05:56:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA92185 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:56:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 13:53:30 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> What an insteresting discussion this lasts days. Not you thing so? >I certainly think so, but I was so slammed with work that I didn't have a >chance to respond. This is the first time! And I've been to the party of another student (what he called a "children's bithday" - just don't ask) and I was still to dizzy to answer emails yesterday... >;-) It's certainly not a one size fits all solution, and we need to make >sure that no one's single idea becomes it. The approach we need to take >should change depending upon our target. I had my problems with your taking this path but now that I got used to it I don't see much to criticise anymore. There are just a few details we could try to find the best solution for. I really don't know why some other guys think your approach is bad. Victor might have a slight language barrier (very accaptable though), but these guys must have the barrier in thier brains! >I started "thinking" about it in about July of last year and have worked >with another individual who actually got a 34010 recompiler working. I guess I started some time earlier, but surely not on such a professional basis. >His >approach was the "assemble the blocks" approach, which he and I squared >off on. I bet so. >We also had some philisophical discussions in the approach that we >didn't agree with, too, so we didn't wind up working together. I can assure you this was the right decision! >I think the answer to this is "it depends". For example, a game like >Galaga uses three Z80s. There isn't 3 Z80s worth of work in the game. If >you look at a lot of the code, there's opportunity for improvement on the >source code, so we shouldn't rule it out. You do, however, wind up running >in to sequences of code that are "groupable": [snip] >You'll find many other examples like this in "real" code, too. Your example is even more extreme than my one. >Yes, it's more flexible. The only drawback is that you have to basically >rewrite a lot of the target layer each time you do it, but things like the >opcode emitter are used across all target layers. And the source layer is reused as well of course ;-) >No, you should still try to beat the approach! Even if it's not easy... >Have a look at it in its current state. Keep this private! >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip Thanks, I'll be quiet as a fish about it! >That's the whole chalupa for what I have right now. Have a look, and we >can have a basis of chatting about it. Might take some time till Victor and I will have digged through it... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 6 05:56:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA92193 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:56:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:09:02 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yeah. I don't think Babelfish would do too good of a job on technical >translations to Spansih from English. ;-) At least until we get the real one from the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy ;-) >Actually, that's not true. Just about every HP printer (and lots of >others) use i860 and i960 CPUs. True, my Minolta PagePro 8 uses an i960 as well. >The reason (and I happen to know this >because I was told this by the head of the CPU division at Intel >personally) for the i860 not getting penetration was that they didn't want >to confuse the marketplace nor compete against their flagship product (at >the time, the 386). How nice would computers be if we didn't have to deal with all the laymen? >I don't think the recompilation is really that big of a deal. Even with >128K of code to recompile, that doesn't take very long. What I meant is: if you'd be using all the compiler optimisation tricks apart from simple peephole optimisation it could be a bit slow. But for most compiler techniques you'd have to build a tree first and since you won't do this there is no real problem. >But it only uses more memory in bursts. The recompilation process on a >per-block basis has a lot of memory getting allocated andfreed. Oh - I >guess you're referring to the 256K jump table. ;-) No I meant the opcode structure between the two layers but that is only allocated for a short time and shouldn't be that large anyway. [virtual intermediate processor = VIP] >Bingo. It does make the translation process easier and all one would have >to do to support a new source CPU would be to create a source layer for >it, but the drawbacks are that it's too generalized. Yeah, and even when I only intended to cover RISC processors I'd need several hundred VIP instructions to produce optimal results, meaning when a processor is recompiled to itself the code shouldn't be much worse. Writing a translator for such a monster VIP won't be much fun and no one will be willing to do it, which makes the whole approach senseless :-( >Now we'll have to have another 64K array to figure out which addresses >have been translated. ;-) I have 256MB RAM, so what? ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 6 05:56:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA92200 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:56:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:40:52 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I think optimisations is useful for code which is executed many times: loops >and procedures. Another question cuold be perhaps if a program in an emulated >machine will be running hours or days or will be running only a few minutes. >In first case you can spend some more time doing optimizations. I think the >only thing we can do to know what level of optimization we can do is to do some >code and try it. For Sun invented the HotSpot technology for Java, which basically interprets first and after some time starts to recompile the most often used blocks. I think also Transmeta's Code Morphing software can optimise revisited blocks even more. The problem of the first approach is that you need two engines, and in the second case profiling information has to be gathered. >I think in arcade and consoles the coding is a little better done than in >nowadays computers, perhaps not ... And I think the code must be really bad >for a translator to optimize it. This has to be answered by Neil again since I've seen to less code... >> Have you read the document about the emulator Generator? At least it >> sounds like it. >No. It's a Genesis emulator written as a university project with a nice documentation: http://www.squish.net/generator/ >What do you mean with a virtual processor? A three layers approach: decoding, >translation to the virtual processor and translation to the target processor. >Or perhaps the Ardi's approach, using a virtuals opcodes for non native >translation and use a kind of threaded interpreter for execute them. I think >using the three layer approach can improve retargetability but will be slower. I was thinking of something similar like P-code or JVM but without the stack approach. I'd be interested what kinf of VP the Tao Group is using for Taos/Elate (http://www.tao.co.uk/), but they don't have public information on it. You're right that it will be a bit slower, but the real problem is how to pack all the features of all possible source processors into the same VIP. Even if you only deal with RISC architectures you'll end up with a real monster no one wants to retarget. >And the first time you build the recompiler you will have to do more coding. >If you aren't going to do the recompiler for more than a target machine will be >too work for nothing. And I think the work needed for build a port to another >target processor could be almost the same than in a two layer approach. In my >university are working in a similar approach (but in static translation) and >now seems they are getting too work. Indeed. I more or less canceled the idea. It still would be nice to have such a VIP but I don't think that it's possible to define a good one. >Some implementation could be something like this: build a two levels >indirection. We can have a map for pages of memory, a kind of PageMap. Each >item in PageMap will be a NULL pointer if there isn't translated code in this >page or a pointer to a TransMap for the page. The testing for translated code >will be first look at PageMap for the address of the page TransMap and then >look at the TransMap. Perhaps some of this can be done in recompilation time >and only look at the page TransMap and use PageMap in recompile time. Since we have to deal with different sized blocks instead of relatively even sized pages I'm not sure how this should work. Also it'll slow down the lookup a bit. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 8 00:13:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01101 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C607D8.1B464405@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 08:57:12 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > For Sun invented the HotSpot technology for Java, which basically > interprets first and after some time starts to recompile the most often > used blocks. I think also Transmeta's Code Morphing software can > optimise revisited blocks even more. > The problem of the first approach is that you need two engines, and in > the second case profiling information has to be gathered. Yes, these are useful techniques for dynamic compiling and for emulate large computers but I don't think would be useful for emulate arcade machines or consoles (perhaps someday with more powerful machines as DreamCast or PlayStation 2 to be emulated could be useful). The procs and programs emulated on arcade machines are too small and a powerful recompiler would make it work slower rather than faster. But for Java and computers emulation I think they could be very useful. > It's a Genesis emulator written as a university project with a nice > documentation: > http://www.squish.net/generator/ I will read it :) Thank you. > > I was thinking of something similar like P-code or JVM but without the > stack approach. I'd be interested what kinf of VP the Tao Group is > using for Taos/Elate (http://www.tao.co.uk/), but they don't have > public information on it. > You're right that it will be a bit slower, but the real problem is how > to pack all the features of all possible source processors into the > same VIP. Even if you only deal with RISC architectures you'll end up > with a real monster no one wants to retarget. About this I don't know nothing, I have never tried to think about it :( I will work (as a student collaborator, I don't know how is this called in english ...) from next week in a static translation project in my university that uses a virtual machine, perhaps I could learn more about the complexity of this subject. > > Indeed. I more or less canceled the idea. It still would be nice to > have such a VIP but I don't think that it's possible to define a good > one. Perhaps could be useful in a kind of MAME project for dynamic recompilation of a large number of CPUs. The same VIP could be used for all the source and target CPUs and help the system to be easy to port. But it would be a very large project for only one person :) > Since we have to deal with different sized blocks instead of relatively > even sized pages I'm not sure how this should work. Also it'll slow > down the lookup a bit. I think it's better I explain a bit more my thoughts, and use an example. I think this could be named something like 'dynamic transmapping' ;) It's an algorithm for handle large sparse memory spaces trying to have the same per instruction translation addressing mode as the one used by Neil. You have to take into account that the size of code will be smaller (very smaller) than the size of data so only a little percentage of the memory is used for code. And almost always the code is stored in a small set of blocks, so a piece of code is near to others pieces of code. Although the different blocks of code will be sparsed over all memory space the code is very grouped so you can deal with it in groups. And more, in this large machines we are talking about the memory is handled by pages, so many times we have separated pages for code and data. I will use as example an 1 MB memory space (ok, it's not a great memory space, but it's only an example). In the Neil's approach we will have a 4 MB TransMap. In my approach we will have a small table of pages (this will be fixed length consecutive pieces of memory as the usual definition, they can be or not the real pages from the emulated machine), it could be named PageMap. We will divide our memory space in a number of this pages.. If we have 4 KB pages we will have 1 MB/4 KB = 256 (100h) pages. Each entry of PageMap is a 32-bits pointer, so PageMap would be 256*4 = 1 KB sized (the size of the memory space and page size will change to fit our goal). Then for each page that has translated or referenced code we will have a TransMapPage (or something like this). The TransMapPage will be a 4KB*4 bytes (a pointer) = 16 KB table with the pointers to the translated code of each instruction in this page of memory. We only will have TransMapPages for these pages that have code on it. For example, PC can be 8156h and we will want to know if this instruction is already translated or not. We calculate the page: 8156h/1000h(4KB) = 8, so this instruction is on page 8. Then we go to PageMap and look for the 8th page. If this entry has a null pointer there is no translated code for this page so we create a new TransMapPage (an empty TransMap, all entries set to null), we update the PageMap structure writing in entry 8 the address of the new TransMapPage and begin the translation. When the translation is finished we put in entry 156h (offset in page 8 for 8156h) of this TransMapPage the address for the translated code of the instruction in 8156h. If the 8 entry of PageMap was a not null pointer then it's a pointer to a TransMapPage, so we go to this TransMapPage and look for entry 156h. If there is a null pointer we translate the instruction as in the previous case, if not we have the pointer for the translated code for the instruction on 8156h. All this is made on translation time and on dispatch loop time. What happens in translated code? Ok we have a jump instruction like this: jump 56156h. In the translation function we get the jump address and calculate the page for this address, it's 56h. We look at PageMap for entry 56h, if it's a not null pointer we will write this code to the translation: mov esi, [PageMap[56h]+156h] and esi,esi jnz not_translated_address. So in translation we don't access to PageMap but the TransMapPage for the jump address page (PageMap[56h] is a constant). If PageMap entry for 56h it's a null pointer we will create a new TransMapPage for page 56h, we will update PageMap and we will write the same translated code. Conclusions: it's faster than a TLB and uses less memory than Neil's original TransMap idea. We only use memory for a small (very smaller than a TransMap structure) PageMap structure and for pieces of TransMap for the pages that have code. While recompiling and on dispatch loop will be a bit slower but nothing you can take in account. The memory used dynamically adjustes to the size of the code. It works well with a per block translations because it's faster than a TLB but you have TransMapPages with a lot of entries not used, this won't harms us ;) There are others problems we will have to manage as do some garbage recollection (translated code that it isn't used), programs loads and exits (load new code and erase old code). These items will make my idea a bit more complex, but, although I haven't thought about them, I think they are easy to manage and you have to do almost the same (or perhaps more) job with a TLB. I hope this time I have explained a bit better. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 8 02:48:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01619 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 02:48:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003081035.LAA15195@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: Probe To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:35:00 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 8 06:28:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02168 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:28:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 15:12:40 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com [virtual intermediate processor] >About this I don't know nothing, I have never tried to think about it :( I >will work (as a student collaborator, I don't know how is this called in >english ...) from next week in a static translation project in my university >that uses a virtual machine, perhaps I could learn more about the complexity of >this subject. I'd be interested what kind of virtual machine they are using. >Perhaps could be useful in a kind of MAME project for dynamic recompilation of >a large number of CPUs. The same VIP could be used for all the source and >target CPUs and help the system to be easy to port. That was the main idea. >But it would be a very large project for only one person :) You can bet on it. But also the more people work on it the less simple or clean the approach will be. >I think this could be named something like 'dynamic transmapping' ;) How about paged or indirect transmapping? ;-) >It's an algorithm for handle large sparse memory spaces trying to have the same >per instruction translation addressing mode as the one used by Neil. I guess then Neil will love it ;-) >You have to take into account that the size of code will be smaller (very >smaller) than the size of data so only a little percentage of the memory is >used for code. And almost always the code is stored in a small set of blocks, >so a piece of code is near to others pieces of code. Although the different >blocks of code will be sparsed over all memory space the code is very grouped >so you can deal with it in groups. And more, in this large machines we are >talking about the memory is handled by pages, so many times we have separated >pages for code and data. You're right of course. I wonder why I didn't think of that last time... >I will use as example an 1 MB memory space (ok, it's not a great memory space, >but it's only an example). In the Neil's approach we will have a 4 MB >TransMap. In my approach we will have a small table of pages (this will be >fixed length consecutive pieces of memory as the usual definition, they can be >or not the real pages from the emulated machine), it could be named PageMap. >We will divide our memory space in a number of this pages.. If we have 4 KB >pages we will have 1 MB/4 KB = 256 (100h) pages. Each entry of PageMap is a >32-bits pointer, so PageMap would be 256*4 = 1 KB sized (the size of the memory >space and page size will change to fit our goal). Then for each page that has >translated or referenced code we will have a TransMapPage (or something like >this). The TransMapPage will be a 4KB*4 bytes (a pointer) = 16 KB table with >the pointers to the translated code of each instruction in this page of >memory. We only will have TransMapPages for these pages that have code on it. That's more or less similar to the standard two-level page translation most MMUs use. >For example, PC can be 8156h and we will want to know if this instruction is >already translated or not. We calculate the page: 8156h/1000h(4KB) = 8, so >this instruction is on page 8. Using a logical shift right would be much faster of course, but that doesn't change your idea. >Then we go to PageMap and look for the 8th >page. If this entry has a null pointer there is no translated code for this >page so we create a new TransMapPage (an empty TransMap, all entries set to >null), we update the PageMap structure writing in entry 8 the address of the >new TransMapPage and begin the translation. When the translation is finished >we put in entry 156h (offset in page 8 for 8156h) of this TransMapPage the >address for the translated code of the instruction in 8156h. If the 8 entry of >PageMap was a not null pointer then it's a pointer to a TransMapPage, so we go >to this TransMapPage and look for entry 156h. If there is a null pointer we >translate the instruction as in the previous case, if not we have the pointer >for the translated code for the instruction on 8156h. All this is made on >translation time and on dispatch loop time. Should be quite fast. >What happens in translated code? >Ok we have a jump instruction like this: > jump 56156h. >In the translation function we get the jump address and calculate the page for >this address, it's 56h. We look at PageMap for entry 56h, if it's a not null >pointer we will write this code to the translation: > mov esi, [PageMap[56h]+156h] > and esi,esi > jnz not_translated_address. >So in translation we don't access to PageMap but the TransMapPage for the jump >address page (PageMap[56h] is a constant). I think it has to be "jz" because the entry is invalid if it is zero, right? >If PageMap entry for 56h it's a null pointer we will create a new TransMapPage >for page 56h, we will update PageMap and we will write the same translated >code. There might be some rare cases of inter-page jumps where you might have /want to create code for it as well. But you're always free to jump back to the dispatcher of course. >Conclusions: it's faster than a TLB If the hash is done right then it won't be that slow, but it's hard to find a good hash function and your method is better suited for the task at hand. >and uses less memory than Neil's original TransMap idea. I don't know Neil good enough but I guess he'll really like it ;-) >We only use memory for a small (very smaller than a TransMap >structure) PageMap structure and for pieces of TransMap for the pages that have >code. While recompiling and on dispatch loop will be a bit slower but nothing >you can take in account. The memory used dynamically adjustes to the size of >the code. It works well with a per block translations because it's faster than >a TLB but you have TransMapPages with a lot of entries not used, this won't >harms us ;) Sounds nice. For systems with low memory Neil's direct TransMap can be used and for larger systems the indirect TransMap, which isn't that different. Congratulations, I think you found a solution which should please us three! Right Neil? >There are others problems we will have to manage as do some garbage >recollection (translated code that it isn't used), programs loads and exits >(load new code and erase old code). These items will make my idea a bit more >complex, but, although I haven't thought about them, I think they are easy to >manage and you have to do almost the same (or perhaps more) job with a TLB. I think this cannot be added to the existing structures, no matter if we are using a TransMap or aTLB. There has to be some other way... Does anyone know how the Java mark-and-sweep GC works? Wait! We're talking about pages right? An OS should replace whole pages, so we might be able to notice this via the PageMap or a parallel structure. Then we have to find out the address of the related allocated memory location and we're ready to free it. >I hope this time I have explained a bit better. Much better indeed. I think I should have understood it the last time but my head wasn't that clear then I guess. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 01:08:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05778 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:08:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:08:41 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38BE4486.F1E63EF1@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Okay, I'm back. Finally got over the big hump that I should've gotten over 2 weeks ago. Sorry to be as scarce as intercourse in a convent... > > You're documenting things FOR me! Cool! ;-) > I'm documenting all emulation techniques I put on my hands ;) I'm That's probably a good idea. Think of it this way: The techniques and approaches can have advantages/disadvantages listed next to them, and any dynarec author can approach their particular needs with some informed direction. > and try to compile all information it's needed for emulate a machine > (this includes CPU emulation techniques: interpreting, dinamic > recompiling, your recompiler ;), perhaps static recompiling [but about > this I think there aren't emulators :(]; graphics and sound emulation: > the differents graphics methods and how to implement them; sound, > others ...; perhaps make a repository about the different machines Don't get me started. I have lots of ideas in this regard. The biggest is why people actually *POLL* for device input and stop every once in awhile and push sound out the port. Device input is all interrupt driven (except for joysticks under DOS which can be polled via a timer tick) and should/can just twiddle bits directly in the memory space (and variables). Every OS under the sun has the capability to call the application back when it needs more data. Doing it this way guarantees that you won't run in to skipping/popping problems. MAME Gets hung up doing this occasionally. The big disadvantage to "stopping every once in a while" is that you have to design your execution path so that it "breaks out" of what it's doing for a while. The less you have to break out from doing, the faster the service is going to be. Zillions more ideas where that came from... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 01:13:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05795 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:13:14 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C370ED.47520F90@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > One more question is: When is optimisation reasonable or would it even > > slow down the translation process that much for the optimised code > > being no benefit? > in an emulated machine will be running hours or days or will be > running only a few minutes. In first case you can spend some more time > doing optimizations. I think the only thing we can do to know what > level of optimization we can do is to do some code and try it. That's exactly it. Study some source material first. That's partially how I came up with a few of the ideas/structures that I did, and it was what lead me to find that I couldn't just treat blocks atomically automatically. > > First of all, not every assembler programmer or compiler has to produce > > good code... > I think in arcade and consoles the coding is a little better done than in > nowadays computers, perhaps not ... And I think the code must be really bad > for a translator to optimize it. Even compiled code doesn't have to be all that good. In most cases it's not. You'd be surprised. Compilers don't and will never approach good assembly. The delta is less with RISC machines but is much, much larger with x86 boxen. But I've seen some really, really stupid code on all CPUs. It doesn't discriminate. ;-) > translation and use a kind of threaded interpreter for execute them. > I think using the three layer approach can improve retargetability but > will be slower. The other advantage is being able to generate recompilers faster for other source CPUs. > almost the same than in a two layer approach. In my university are > working in a similar approach (but in static translation) and now > seems they are getting too work. Have them take their approach to the x86 where registers are scarce and watch the performance dwindle. ;-) > > I'm not sure if this will work, but I'll think about it. > Some implementation could be something like this: build a two levels > indirection. We can have a map for pages of memory, a kind of > PageMap. Each item in PageMap will be a NULL pointer if there isn't > translated code in this page or a pointer to a TransMap for the page. Sounds like what I'm doing. ;-) > The testing for translated code will be first look at PageMap for the > address of the page TransMap and then look at the TransMap. Perhaps > some of this can be done in recompilation time and only look at the > page TransMap and use PageMap in recompile time. There is one advantage. You don't have to create a comparative jump sequence if you already know where the recompiled address is. You just jump to it! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 01:20:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05820 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:20:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:20:25 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I certainly think so, but I was so slammed with work that I didn't > >chance to respond. This is the first time! > And I've been to the party of another student (what he called a > "children's bithday" - just don't ask) and I was still to dizzy to > answer emails yesterday... I have that problem on the weekends - consistently. ;-) > I had my problems with your taking this path but now that I got used to > it I don't see much to criticise anymore. There are just a few details > we could try to find the best solution for. Precisely. There are still some rough edges and some areas that I haven't explored, but that's mainly because I don't care about them. ;-) > I really don't know why some other guys think your approach is bad. > Victor might have a slight language barrier (very accaptable though), > but these guys must have the barrier in thier brains! They don't think it's bad. They just think the existing methodologies are "better". Being "generic" has its advantages, but the whole point of recompilation is to make it go as fast as it can. Anything short of that is a waste of time. An extremely optimized emulator core should be able to come fairly close to a recompiler, and falling short of the most optimal emulator core you can make - you'd be better off just doing an emulator and optimizing that. > >I started "thinking" about it in about July of last year and have > >with another individual who actually got a 34010 recompiler working. > I guess I started some time earlier, but surely not on such a > professional basis. Heh. Well, there was no professional aspect about this for me. ;-) I just found the topic fascinating... > >approach was the "assemble the blocks" approach, which he and I > >off on. > I bet so. A bummer, too. The problem is there was a bit of the larger picture he wasn't seeing. I'm also not the type of person who wants to just remigrate or repurpose my code to adjust to a new architecture, which is one of the things that he was doing. I say throw it out and start anew. I've dealt with so much code that has been repurposed that it's not funny. Everyone's scared of the word "rewrite". Management and everyone else would rather pour in 5 weeks repurposing and debugging something that would take 2 weeks to rewrite from ground up. > >You'll find many other examples like this in "real" code, too. > Your example is even more extreme than my one. There is more where that came from. > >Yes, it's more flexible. The only drawback is that you have to > >rewrite a lot of the target layer each time you do it, but things like > >opcode emitter are used across all target layers. > And the source layer is reused as well of course ;-) Bingo. You still get the advent of flag mapping hints being passed to the lower layers in addition to the disassembly and, most importantly, the same user interface to client code. > >Have a look at it in its current state. Keep this private! > >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip > Thanks, I'll be quiet as a fish about it! Hey - NO ONE Commented on this yet. Wassup with that?!??!? > >That's the whole chalupa for what I have right now. Have a look, and > >can have a basis of chatting about it. > Might take some time till Victor and I will have digged through it... Okay. You've had 3 days. Where's your 50 page report? ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 01:21:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05831 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:21:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C76952.EB609384@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:05:23 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > [virtual intermediate processor] > >About this I don't know nothing, I have never tried to think about it > :( I > >will work (as a student collaborator, I don't know how is this called > in > >english ...) from next week in a static translation project in my > university > >that uses a virtual machine, perhaps I could learn more about the > complexity of > >this subject. > > I'd be interested what kind of virtual machine they are using. > I will ask if is free information and I will put somewhere the poscript document (it's in english). I have just take a look at it and is a really big VM more suited for big machines: includes 32K registers, integer, float and vector registers and all usual operations. The opcode is 128 bits and the word size is 64. Too big for emulation I think :( > > >Perhaps could be useful in a kind of MAME project for dynamic > recompilation of > >a large number of CPUs. The same VIP could be used for all the source > and > >target CPUs and help the system to be easy to port. > > That was the main idea. > > >But it would be a very large project for only one person :) > > You can bet on it. But also the more people work on it the less simple > or clean the approach will be. > > >I think this could be named something like 'dynamic transmapping' ;) > > How about paged or indirect transmapping? ;-) > It's a good name ;) > > >For example, PC can be 8156h and we will want to know if this > instruction is > >already translated or not. We calculate the page: 8156h/1000h(4KB) = > 8, so > >this instruction is on page 8. > > Using a logical shift right would be much faster of course, but that > doesn't change your idea. > You are right, it's only and example :) > > >What happens in translated code? > >Ok we have a jump instruction like this: > > jump 56156h. > >In the translation function we get the jump address and calculate the > page for > >this address, it's 56h. We look at PageMap for entry 56h, if it's a > not null > >pointer we will write this code to the translation: > > mov esi, [PageMap[56h]+156h] > > and esi,esi > > jnz not_translated_address. > >So in translation we don't access to PageMap but the TransMapPage for > the jump > >address page (PageMap[56h] is a constant). > > I think it has to be "jz" because the entry is invalid if it is zero, > right? > Oh, ... I think you are right, but the idea is the same. > > >If PageMap entry for 56h it's a null pointer we will create a new > TransMapPage > >for page 56h, we will update PageMap and we will write the same > translated > >code. > > There might be some rare cases of inter-page jumps where you might have > /want to create code for it as well. But you're always free to jump > back to the dispatcher of course. > But if you don't destroy the TransMapPages you don't need to do this or I think so. > > >There are others problems we will have to manage as do some garbage > >recollection (translated code that it isn't used), programs loads and > exits > >(load new code and erase old code). These items will make my idea a > bit more > >complex, but, although I haven't thought about them, I think they are > easy to > >manage and you have to do almost the same (or perhaps more) job with a > TLB. > > I think this cannot be added to the existing structures, no matter if > we are using a TransMap or aTLB. There has to be some other way... Does > anyone know how the Java mark-and-sweep GC works? I don't it's something interestiong? > > Wait! We're talking about pages right? An OS should replace whole > pages, so we might be able to notice this via the PageMap or a parallel > structure. Then we have to find out the address of the related > allocated memory location and we're ready to free it. > This is my idea, track system calls and traps to know when code is loaded and erased. > > >I hope this time I have explained a bit better. > > Much better indeed. I think I should have understood it the last time > but my head wasn't that clear then I guess. I think I did a too fast explanation I should have done some example :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 01:27:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05845 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:27:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:27:16 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Yeah. I don't think Babelfish would do too good of a job on technical > >translations to Spansih from English. ;-) > At least until we get the real one from the Hitchhiker's Guide To The > Galaxy ;-) It will give you "Spinglish". ;-) > >to confuse the marketplace nor compete against their flagship product > >the time, the 386). > How nice would computers be if we didn't have to deal with all the > laymen? I really, really wish I was born into an age where money wasn't an object and wasn't people's motivating factor. I run into greedy, snitty people every day that just bug the hell out of me. Whatever happened to everyone working together for a common goal - even with a bit of competition for recognition, but everyone gets to benefit from it. The concept of "theft" would be eliminated. It's communism, really. Not Marxist communism, but I'd love to get up in the morning, make good stuff, talk high level concepts with people, implement and let the world enjoy the fruits of my labor without having the possibility of getting "ripped off". > >I don't think the recompilation is really that big of a deal. Even > >128K of code to recompile, that doesn't take very long. > What I meant is: if you'd be using all the compiler optimisation tricks > apart from simple peephole optimisation it could be a bit slow. How so? > But for > most compiler techniques you'd have to build a tree first and since you > won't do this there is no real problem. Right. The operated-on blocks of code would be structurized and you could optimize them a block at a time. > >But it only uses more memory in bursts. The recompilation process on a > >per-block basis has a lot of memory getting allocated andfreed. Oh - I > >guess you're referring to the 256K jump table. ;-) > No I meant the opcode structure between the two layers but that is only > allocated for a short time and shouldn't be that large anyway. Between the two layers? Hm... Well, it's more like the crap that's emitted from the target layer, so if anything it's stuck to the side of the target layer. ;-) > Yeah, and even when I only intended to cover RISC processors I'd need > several hundred VIP instructions to produce optimal results, meaning > when a processor is recompiled to itself the code shouldn't be much > worse. Writing a translator for such a monster VIP won't be much fun > and no one will be willing to do it, which makes the whole approach > senseless :-( And I think that approach would have a low probability of being successful in the realm of performance. > >Now we'll have to have another 64K array to figure out which addresses > >have been translated. ;-) > I have 256MB RAM, so what? ;-) Yeah, but we don't want to exclude smaller machines or cause massive amounts of swap, which I'd rather not do. If only everyone adapted the "if you don't need it, don't use it" approach to programming, we'd have much, much smaller apps and things would be far snappier. Now even boneheaded programmers can write fast code even if it's shit. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 01:30:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05860 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:30:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:30:15 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >only thing we can do to know what level of optimization we can do is > >code and try it. > For Sun invented the HotSpot technology for Java, which basically > interprets first and after some time starts to recompile the most often > used blocks. Java... bleh... excuse me while I vomit on the cat... > I think also Transmeta's Code Morphing software can > optimise revisited blocks even more. You should read up the tech articles on it. The code morphing isn't all that revolutionary or new, and isn't as advanced as we would all hope it to be. ;-( > >I think in arcade and consoles the coding is a little better done than > >nowadays computers, perhaps not ... And I think the code must be > >for a translator to optimize it. > This has to be answered by Neil again since I've seen to less code... It's a sometimes yes, sometimes no situation. Even on modern consoles (I.E. Genesis) there's still some crap code. > I was thinking of something similar like P-code or JVM but without the > stack approach. I'd be interested what kinf of VP the Tao Group is > using for Taos/Elate (http://www.tao.co.uk/), but they don't have > public information on it. I think also that passing in hints will give the recompiler quite a bit of freedom to make quite a few more intelligent decisions. We just have to spend a lot of time analyzing code. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 01:42:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05905 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:42:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:42:18 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C607D8.1B464405@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > You have to take into account that the size of code will be smaller (very > smaller) than the size of data so only a little percentage of the memory is > used for code. And almost always the code is stored in a small set of blocks, > so a piece of code is near to others pieces of code. Although the different > blocks of code will be sparsed over all memory space the code is very grouped > so you can deal with it in groups. And more, in this large machines we are > talking about the memory is handled by pages, so many times we have separated > pages for code and data. Right. This is the idea that I was trying to get across in my mentioning of sparse memory maps. > I will use as example an 1 MB memory space (ok, it's not a great memory space, > but it's only an example). In the Neil's approach we will have a 4 MB > TransMap. In my approach we will have a small table of pages (this will be > fixed length consecutive pieces of memory as the usual definition, they can be > or not the real pages from the emulated machine), it could be named PageMap. > We will divide our memory space in a number of this pages.. If we have 4 KB > pages we will have 1 MB/4 KB = 256 (100h) pages. Each entry of PageMap is a > 32-bits pointer, so PageMap would be 256*4 = 1 KB sized (the size of the memory Why not just assume a huge bit of virtual memory for the device? If it's a 68000, the most you'd use is 2^24, or 16777216*4=64 Megabytes for a transmap (or 32MB if you just do odd addresses). Execution won't occur in all 16 Megabytes of memory space and it will be paged in when used/executed. Kinda wasteful, but I think in the long run it'd be worth it because of the performance paybacks. Of course, lower end machines wouldn't be able to cope, but when we're emulating something with this sparse of a memory space a slow machine isn't up to the task anyway. > 8 for 8156h) of this TransMapPage the address for the translated code > of the instruction in 8156h. If the 8 entry of PageMap was a not null > pointer then it's a pointer to a TransMapPage, so we go to this > TransMapPage and look for entry 156h. If there is a null pointer we > translate the instruction as in the previous case, if not we have the > pointer for the translated code for the instruction on 8156h. Effectively a double page mapping... Hm... not a bad idea. Effectively, this would be a bit of instruction recompiled "cache" ,right? > In the translation function we get the jump address and calculate the > page for this address, it's 56h. We look at PageMap for entry 56h, if > it's a not null pointer we will write this code to the translation: Cute. Let me stew on this one. > mov esi, [PageMap[56h]+156h] Well, you can't quite do that, but: mov esi, PageMap[56h] mov esi, [esi+156h] It'd be cool if you could! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 01:58:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06005 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:58:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C7711A.5C97887C@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:38:34 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > It will give you "Spinglish". ;-) I spik Eeeenglish very gooood, I leeearn it from a boooook. For anyone who hasn't seen "Fawlty Towers", don't think the above sentence was being cruel. It was a British comedy series from the '70s which was hilariously funny - with John Cleese (of Monty Python fame). > I really, really wish I was born into an age where money wasn't an object > and wasn't people's motivating factor. I run into greedy, snitty people > every day that just bug the hell out of me. Whatever happened to everyone > working together for a common goal - even with a bit of competition for > recognition, but everyone gets to benefit from it. The concept of "theft" > would be eliminated. > > It's communism, really. Not Marxist communism, but I'd love to get up in > the morning, make good stuff, talk high level concepts with people, > implement and let the world enjoy the fruits of my labor without having > the possibility of getting "ripped off". Amen to that. I completely agree. While I don't think that Marxist communism could ever work, there are some definite advantages to communism. That's one of them. > > What I meant is: if you'd be using all the compiler optimisation tricks > > apart from simple peephole optimisation it could be a bit slow. > > How so? I think he means that you're checking for bad code and converting it into good code. Bad code being code which takes 5 instructions to achieve the same as one or two instructions could do. But that's just a guess. :) > > I have 256MB RAM, so what? ;-) > > Yeah, but we don't want to exclude smaller machines or cause massive > amounts of swap, which I'd rather not do. I agree. You shouldn't program to the people with the best computers, you should program for the worst. Why? Well, generally speaking, doing this makes things run faster for ALL the computers - all the way up to the fastest computers. > If only everyone adapted the "if you don't need it, don't use it" approach > to programming, we'd have much, much smaller apps and things would be far > snappier. Now even boneheaded programmers can write fast code even if it's > shit. Agreed. It's a bit of a bummer really... I'm an old school demo coder. I agree with this philosophy. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 02:23:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06269 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:23:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C777B5.A8271624@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:06:45 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > > > I will use as example an 1 MB memory space (ok, it's not a great memory space, > > but it's only an example). In the Neil's approach we will have a 4 MB > > TransMap. In my approach we will have a small table of pages (this will be > > fixed length consecutive pieces of memory as the usual definition, they can be > > or not the real pages from the emulated machine), it could be named PageMap. > > We will divide our memory space in a number of this pages.. If we have 4 KB > > pages we will have 1 MB/4 KB = 256 (100h) pages. Each entry of PageMap is a > > 32-bits pointer, so PageMap would be 256*4 = 1 KB sized (the size of the memory > > Why not just assume a huge bit of virtual memory for the device? If it's a > 68000, the most you'd use is 2^24, or 16777216*4=64 Megabytes for a > transmap (or 32MB if you just do odd addresses). Execution won't occur in > all 16 Megabytes of memory space and it will be paged in when > used/executed. Kinda wasteful, but I think in the long run it'd be worth > it because of the performance paybacks. Of course, lower end machines > wouldn't be able to cope, but when we're emulating something with this > sparse of a memory space a slow machine isn't up to the task anyway. > It was only an example. > > > 8 for 8156h) of this TransMapPage the address for the translated code > > of the instruction in 8156h. If the 8 entry of PageMap was a not null > > pointer then it's a pointer to a TransMapPage, so we go to this > > TransMapPage and look for entry 156h. If there is a null pointer we > > translate the instruction as in the previous case, if not we have the > > pointer for the translated code for the instruction on 8156h. > > Effectively a double page mapping... Hm... not a bad idea. Effectively, > this would be a bit of instruction recompiled "cache" ,right? > Something like this. > > > In the translation function we get the jump address and calculate the > > page for this address, it's 56h. We look at PageMap for entry 56h, if > > it's a not null pointer we will write this code to the translation: > > Cute. Let me stew on this one. > > > mov esi, [PageMap[56h]+156h] > > Well, you can't quite do that, but: > > mov esi, PageMap[56h] > mov esi, [esi+156h] > > It'd be cool if you could! > No I think you can do 'mov esi,[PageMap[56h]+156h]' if you know that when is created a TransMapPage it isn't erased later (or if it's erased then all code that jumps to this page is erased too). PageMap[56] it's get in translation time, I think the confusion is in how I have called it. Perhaps: while translation tmp = PageMap[56]; emit (mov esi,[%d],tmp+156h); in translation code mov esi,[effective_address_for_this_translated_instruction] I think this could be done a lot of times I you don't have to worry if a translated page is erased. If a translated page could be erased and created later then your code would be the one you should use. I hope this time I have explained better. Victor Moya P.S.: You write pretty fast ;) How many mails have you wrote last hour? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 02:29:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06290 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:29:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C77934.15BA190@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:13:08 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: <38C7711A.5C97887C@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: Welcome to a new member :) I'm happy to see you here. > > > I really, really wish I was born into an age where money wasn't an object > > and wasn't people's motivating factor. I run into greedy, snitty people > > every day that just bug the hell out of me. Whatever happened to everyone > > working together for a common goal - even with a bit of competition for > > recognition, but everyone gets to benefit from it. The concept of "theft" > > would be eliminated. > > > > It's communism, really. Not Marxist communism, but I'd love to get up in > > the morning, make good stuff, talk high level concepts with people, > > implement and let the world enjoy the fruits of my labor without having > > the possibility of getting "ripped off". > > Amen to that. I completely agree. While I don't think that Marxist > communism could ever work, there are some definite advantages to communism. > That's one of them. I agree too. This is a dream, but if noone dreams a little nothing change never. > > > > I have 256MB RAM, so what? ;-) > > > > Yeah, but we don't want to exclude smaller machines or cause massive > > amounts of swap, which I'd rather not do. > > I agree. You shouldn't program to the people with the best computers, you > should program for the worst. Why? Well, generally speaking, doing this > makes things run faster for ALL the computers - all the way up to the > fastest computers. > This would be really interesting if the PC game programmers did it. > > > If only everyone adapted the "if you don't need it, don't use it" approach > > to programming, we'd have much, much smaller apps and things would be far > > snappier. Now even boneheaded programmers can write fast code even if it's > > shit. > > Agreed. It's a bit of a bummer really... > > I'm an old school demo coder. I agree with this philosophy. :) A bit more assembler (or optimized C code) and less Java/Visual Basic/Object coding could that a game (as FF8 that works well in a 1MB, 25 Mhz machine and needs a Pentium II with 64 MB to work) will work a reasonable machine not in a monster machine. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 02:36:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06322 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C77ACB.73133ABB@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:19:55 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > >Have a look at it in its current state. Keep this private! > > >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip > > Thanks, I'll be quiet as a fish about it! > > Hey - NO ONE Commented on this yet. Wassup with that?!??!? > > > >That's the whole chalupa for what I have right now. Have a look, and > > >can have a basis of chatting about it. > > Might take some time till Victor and I will have digged through it... > > Okay. You've had 3 days. Where's your 50 page report? ;-) > Oh, I missed it on my home ... but it was a 100 page report (do you time to read it or you want a summary) ;) Really, wait a bit more (I think until this weekend), I look it tuesday but this week I'm starting a new job I have less free time. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 02:43:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06335 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:43:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C77C3B.6D2551E5@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:26:03 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > Okay, I'm back. Finally got over the big hump that I should've gotten over > 2 weeks ago. Sorry to be as scarce as intercourse in a convent... > > > > You're documenting things FOR me! Cool! ;-) > > > I'm documenting all emulation techniques I put on my hands ;) I'm > > That's probably a good idea. Think of it this way: The techniques and > approaches can have advantages/disadvantages listed next to them, and any > dynarec author can approach their particular needs with some informed > direction. > This would be really interesting if a number of the dynarec (or emulator) authors do it or help others to do it. > > > and try to compile all information it's needed for emulate a machine > > (this includes CPU emulation techniques: interpreting, dinamic > > recompiling, your recompiler ;), perhaps static recompiling [but about > > this I think there aren't emulators :(]; graphics and sound emulation: > > the differents graphics methods and how to implement them; sound, > > others ...; perhaps make a repository about the different machines > > Don't get me started. I have lots of ideas in this regard. The biggest is > why people actually *POLL* for device input and stop every once in awhile > and push sound out the port. Device input is all interrupt driven (except > for joysticks under DOS which can be polled via a timer tick) and > should/can just twiddle bits directly in the memory space (and variables). > Every OS under the sun has the capability to call the application back > when it needs more data. Doing it this way guarantees that you won't run > in to skipping/popping problems. MAME Gets hung up doing this > occasionally. > > The big disadvantage to "stopping every once in a while" is that you have > to design your execution path so that it "breaks out" of what it's doing > for a while. The less you have to break out from doing, the faster the > service is going to be. > Do you mean a kind of event handled emulator? (I think I'm using the wrong words ....). Use interruptions to handle I/O in the emulator and do it in the main loop? > > Zillions more ideas where that came from... > Really? I love discuss about new ideas ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 02:56:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06364 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C77F95.107B11C8@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:40:21 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > [virtual intermediate processor] > >About this I don't know nothing, I have never tried to think about it > :( I > >will work (as a student collaborator, I don't know how is this called > in > >english ...) from next week in a static translation project in my > university > >that uses a virtual machine, perhaps I could learn more about the > complexity of > >this subject. > > I'd be interested what kind of virtual machine they are using. > Try download this Dixie Architecture Reference Manual: Version 1.0 ftp://ftp.ac.upc.es/pub/reports/DAC/1998/UPC-DAC-1998-55.ps.Z You can search others reports in www.ac.upc.es but I think will be hard. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA07983 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:17:25 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Okay, I'm back. Finally got over the big hump that I should've gotten over >2 weeks ago. Sorry to be as scarce as intercourse in a convent... Uh, it seems so. I was a bit shocked when I got 16 new mails today ;-) >Don't get me started. I have lots of ideas in this regard. The biggest is >why people actually *POLL* for device input and stop every once in awhile >and push sound out the port. Device input is all interrupt driven (except >for joysticks under DOS which can be polled via a timer tick) and >should/can just twiddle bits directly in the memory space (and variables). >Every OS under the sun has the capability to call the application back >when it needs more data. Doing it this way guarantees that you won't run >in to skipping/popping problems. MAME Gets hung up doing this >occasionally. Well, MAME is a monster and seems to have much procedure call overhead as well. >The big disadvantage to "stopping every once in a while" is that you have >to design your execution path so that it "breaks out" of what it's doing >for a while. The less you have to break out from doing, the faster the >service is going to be. Sounds just like the optimal solution. >Zillions more ideas where that came from... How many zeros is this? ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08004 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:26:14 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Even compiled code doesn't have to be all that good. In most cases it's >not. You'd be surprised. Compilers don't and will never approach good >assembly. The delta is less with RISC machines but is much, much larger >with x86 boxen. Even RISC compilers can produce crap code, eg. I never found a compiler that could exploit the feature of ARM being able to execute every instruction conditionally. >Have them take their approach to the x86 where registers are scarce and >watch the performance dwindle. ;-) Oh, don't be this cruel! ;-) [indirect TransMap] >Sounds like what I'm doing. ;-) Yeah, that's why Victors solution is so great. Actually it's so obvious that I wonder why we didn't think about it before. >There is one advantage. You don't have to create a comparative jump >sequence if you already know where the recompiled address is. You just >jump to it! Well, that's one thing I know from your code ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08005 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:38:06 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> And I've been to the party of another student (what he called a >> "children's bithday" - just don't ask) and I was still to dizzy to >> answer emails yesterday... >I have that problem on the weekends - consistently. ;-) Oh, I couldn't do that every weekend! The beers and 2 cuba libre were ok but the tequila was too much... >Precisely. There are still some rough edges and some areas that I haven't >explored, but that's mainly because I don't care about them. ;-) Now you have some helpers who can discuss about the dusty corners while you do the real work ;-) >They don't think it's bad. They just think the existing methodologies are >"better". Being "generic" has its advantages, but the whole point of >recompilation is to make it go as fast as it can. Anything short of that >is a waste of time. An extremely optimized emulator core should be able to >come fairly close to a recompiler, and falling short of the most optimal >emulator core you can make - you'd be better off just doing an emulator >and optimizing that. Indeed. I had my first discussions about dynarecs with someone who did one for his PCEngine emulator, but didn't release it because his interpreter was faster! >Heh. Well, there was no professional aspect about this for me. ;-) I just >found the topic fascinating... Me too, but I started on the theory level and developed my own ideas later. >A bummer, too. The problem is there was a bit of the larger picture he >wasn't seeing. Sure. How can you see the large picture when just use every instruction as some kind of copy makro? >I'm also not the type of person who wants to just remigrate or repurpose >my code to adjust to a new architecture, which is one of the things that >he was doing. I say throw it out and start anew. I've dealt with so much >code that has been repurposed that it's not funny. Everyone's scared of >the word "rewrite". Management and everyone else would rather pour in 5 >weeks repurposing and debugging something that would take 2 weeks to >rewrite from ground up. Tell my about it. I work on a program that was ported from DOS (Clipper) to Windows (SQL) and many things could have been much better when the database structure had been revised first... >Hey - NO ONE Commented on this yet. Wassup with that?!??!? You said we should keep it private! ;-) Honestly, I'm sorry that I didn't have enough time to take a deeper look at it, so I didn't find out much more than I already know... >Okay. You've had 3 days. Where's your 50 page report? ;-) Still in my head ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08008 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:13:12 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I will ask if is free information and I will put somewhere the poscript >document (it's in english). I have just take a look at it and is a really big >VM more suited for big machines: includes 32K registers, integer, float and >vector registers and all usual operations. The opcode is 128 bits and the word >size is 64. Too big for emulation I think :( Sounds a bit like IA-64 ;-) >Try download this >Dixie Architecture Reference Manual: Version 1.0 >ftp://ftp.ac.upc.es/pub/reports/DAC/1998/UPC-DAC-1998-55.ps.Z Thanks, already did it. >> I think it has to be "jz" because the entry is invalid if it is zero, >> right? >Oh, ... I think you are right, but the idea is the same. Sure, but my knowledge of x86 assembler still isn't that good so I wanted to ask... >> There might be some rare cases of inter-page jumps where you might have >> /want to create code for it as well. But you're always free to jump >> back to the dispatcher of course. >But if you don't destroy the TransMapPages you don't need to do this or I think >so. What I meant is the case like in Neil's code where he already includes a direct jump even when the block isn't generated yet. You have the same with intra-page jumps, but it might occur on inter-page jumps too. Either you'll have to check the PageMap in these cases as well or return to the dispatcher. >> I think this cannot be added to the existing structures, no matter if >> we are using a TransMap or aTLB. There has to be some other way... Does >> anyone know how the Java mark-and-sweep GC works? >I don't it's something interestiong? I'm not sure what you mean, but I was just wondering if the garbage collection mechanism of Java could be of use for us. But given the fact how many useful things I found in a JVM yet I don't think so. I guess we can come up with a better solution for our needs anyway. >This is my idea, track system calls and traps to know when code is loaded and >erased. That will be hard though. First of all you need to find out which system call does this and it hopefully works for dynamic libs as well. And this doesn't work with dynamically generated code, but who does this anyway? ;-) >I think I did a too fast explanation I should have done some example :) Examples are always good. I hope you'll use some in your work. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08013 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 21:09:47 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Right. This is the idea that I was trying to get across in my mentioning >of sparse memory maps. Ah, I thought memory maps were more machine specific while a paged TransMap as Victor describes it should work for almost any system. Oops, generalization again... >Why not just assume a huge bit of virtual memory for the device? If it's a >68000, the most you'd use is 2^24, or 16777216*4=64 Megabytes for a >transmap (or 32MB if you just do odd addresses). Execution won't occur in >all 16 Megabytes of memory space and it will be paged in when >used/executed. Kinda wasteful, but I think in the long run it'd be worth >it because of the performance paybacks. Of course, lower end machines >wouldn't be able to cope, but when we're emulating something with this >sparse of a memory space a slow machine isn't up to the task anyway. The great thing is that even when the whole memory would be used you only need the same space for all the TransMaps and - in this example - 16K for the PageMap (when using 4K pages, which is "industry standard"). Since only about 25% of the memory will be code you only will need about 8M+16K and the space for the recompiled code of course. The advantage is that the needed memory only grows gradually and in comparison with a TLB you don't have to cover collisions, which you'll surely have in a hash table with this much data. >> mov esi, [PageMap[56h]+156h] >Well, you can't quite do that, but: I think what Victor means is that PageMap[56h] is a compile time constant so you can simply use the result of the addition for generation. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08017 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:48:13 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Java... bleh... excuse me while I vomit on the cat... Stinky even getting sinkier? Poor cat! ;-) >You should read up the tech articles on it. The code morphing isn't all >that revolutionary or new, and isn't as advanced as we would all hope it >to be. ;-( Yeah, I don't believe the PR talks anyway... >I think also that passing in hints will give the recompiler quite a bit of >freedom to make quite a few more intelligent decisions. We just have to >spend a lot of time analyzing code. Indeed, but first you have to get it running, then optimisations can start ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08025 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:45:22 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It will give you "Spinglish". ;-) Might sound nice... >It's communism, really. Not Marxist communism, but I'd love to get up in >the morning, make good stuff, talk high level concepts with people, >implement and let the world enjoy the fruits of my labor without having >the possibility of getting "ripped off". Could be nice since you have a "profit" for all the people. But history showed that it doesn't work in reality... >> I have 256MB RAM, so what? ;-) >Yeah, but we don't want to exclude smaller machines or cause massive >amounts of swap, which I'd rather not do. I know, it was just a joke. I'm also a bit pissed off that you need whole CDs for PC programmes which are small enough to fit onto a single floppy on other systems. >If only everyone adapted the "if you don't need it, don't use it" approach >to programming, we'd have much, much smaller apps and things would be far >snappier. Now even boneheaded programmers can write fast code even if it's >shit. But often enough the shit isn't even fast... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08029 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 21:13:58 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> I agree. You shouldn't program to the people with the best computers, you >> should program for the worst. Why? Well, generally speaking, doing this >> makes things run faster for ALL the computers - all the way up to the >> fastest computers. >This would be really interesting if the PC game programmers did it. You're dreaming again ;-) >A bit more assembler (or optimized C code) and less Java/Visual Basic/ Object >coding could that a game (as FF8 that works well in a 1MB, 25 Mhz machine and >needs a Pentium II with 64 MB to work) will work a reasonable machine not in a >monster machine. Hm, if you mean FF8 on the Playstation the specs are: 2MB RAM, 1MB VRAM, and a R3000A with 33MHz, but that doesn't make much difference... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:29:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08039 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:54:28 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Uh, either Neil changed his last name or we really have someone new on this list... Welcome aboard Neil! >I spik Eeeenglish very gooood, I leeearn it from a boooook. Ser ar' efen better exampls of Dshermen English ;-) >For anyone who hasn't seen "Fawlty Towers", don't think the above sentence >was being cruel. It was a British comedy series from the '70s which was >hilariously funny - with John Cleese (of Monty Python fame). I saw it once or twice but I bet it lost much in the German dubbing... >I think he means that you're checking for bad code and converting it into >good code. Bad code being code which takes 5 instructions to achieve the >same as one or two instructions could do. >But that's just a guess. :) You describe exactly peephole optimisation, which is no problem in dynamic recompilation. What I meant is that global optimisation or something similar, which traditionally operates on tree structures isn't that useful for dynarecs. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 23:42:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10219 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8A390.25F825D2@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:26:08 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >> mov esi, [PageMap[56h]+156h] > >Well, you can't quite do that, but: > > I think what Victor means is that PageMap[56h] is a compile time > constant so you can simply use the result of the addition for > generation. > You are right. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 23:44:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10239 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8A339.A2BE51A7@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:24:41 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >This would be really interesting if the PC game programmers did it. > > You're dreaming again ;-) Yeah, the approach of "Well, if it's too slow now, we'll release it in a few months" philosophy is always good. ;) > Hm, if you mean FF8 on the Playstation the specs are: 2MB RAM, 1MB > VRAM, and a R3000A with 33MHz, but that doesn't make much difference... AFAIK there is no seperate VRAM - it's shared. So in fact, Neil is right. Unless I'm wrong (which I doubt), in which case so is he. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 23:52:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10267 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:52:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8A550.69678D4F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:33:36 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Uh, either Neil changed his last name or we really have someone new on > this list... > Welcome aboard Neil! Thanks! It's yet another mailing list to clog up my inbox and take time away from actually doing work. But hey, I'm not going to complain about THAT! :) > >I spik Eeeenglish very gooood, I leeearn it from a boooook. > > Ser ar' efen better exampls of Dshermen English ;-) Ja, I vill mek you spik in my langvage! ;) In actual fact, not that you can tell from my e-mail address, I am actually British. I'm just working over here - and you'll know exactly the term - as a praktikant. So I'm a student who actually gets paid, but then I also have to do work as well. Nothing for nothing in this life. :o > >For anyone who hasn't seen "Fawlty Towers", don't think the above > sentence > >was being cruel. It was a British comedy series from the '70s which > was > >hilariously funny - with John Cleese (of Monty Python fame). > > I saw it once or twice but I bet it lost much in the German dubbing... I don't know, there was a fair bit of visual comedy in it too... > >I think he means that you're checking for bad code and converting it > into > >good code. Bad code being code which takes 5 instructions to achieve > the > >same as one or two instructions could do. > >But that's just a guess. :) > > You describe exactly peephole optimisation, which is no problem in > dynamic recompilation. Of course. Although you'd have to optimise quickly - you don't want to take too long in optimising or else there's no point... > What I meant is that global optimisation or something similar, which > traditionally operates on tree structures isn't that useful for > dynarecs. But could be quite useful in dynamic compilation. But that isn't for this group, so I won't go there. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 9 23:57:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10283 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:57:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8A705.B1842499@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:40:55 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > > What I meant is the case like in Neil's code where he already includes > a direct jump even when the block isn't generated yet. You have the > same with intra-page jumps, but it might occur on inter-page jumps too. > Either you'll have to check the PageMap in these cases as well or > return to the dispatcher. > No. Every time you find a reference (a jump) to an address the TransMap for this page is created, so even if the block hasn't been generated yet you can do the same test than for translated blocks. > > >> I think this cannot be added to the existing structures, no matter > if > >> we are using a TransMap or aTLB. There has to be some other way... > Does > >> anyone know how the Java mark-and-sweep GC works? > >I don't it's something interestiong? > > I'm not sure what you mean, but I was just wondering if the garbage > collection mechanism of Java could be of use for us. But given the fact > how many useful things I found in a JVM yet I don't think so. I guess > we can come up with a better solution for our needs anyway. > I don't know how Java really works so I can't help you. > > >This is my idea, track system calls and traps to know when code is > loaded and > >erased. > > That will be hard though. First of all you need to find out which > system call does this and it hopefully works for dynamic libs as well. > And this doesn't work with dynamically generated code, but who does > this anyway? ;-) > Further study about this someday ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 00:08:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA10315 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:08:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8A9D0.B9B2C839@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:52:48 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: <38C8A550.69678D4F@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > > > > You describe exactly peephole optimisation, which is no problem in > > dynamic recompilation. > > Of course. Although you'd have to optimise quickly - you don't want to take > too long in optimising or else there's no point... > As Neil (Bradley) says this is related to what kind of emulator you are doing. Sometimes will be useful do more optimizations and sometimes less. > > > What I meant is that global optimisation or something similar, which > > traditionally operates on tree structures isn't that useful for > > dynarecs. > > But could be quite useful in dynamic compilation. But that isn't for this > group, so I won't go there. :) > Are you talking about that old emulation techniques discussion? I think this group is for anything related to dynamic or static compilation or recompilation. Althought his name and main purpose of talk about dynarec anything about emulation is welcome here ;) (Neil could say if I'm right or not, he is the boss) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 00:19:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA10348 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:19:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8AB1C.1E21296@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:58:20 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: <38C8A705.B1842499@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I'm not sure what you mean, but I was just wondering if the garbage > > collection mechanism of Java could be of use for us. But given the fact > > how many useful things I found in a JVM yet I don't think so. I guess > > we can come up with a better solution for our needs anyway. > > I don't know how Java really works so I can't help you. But I did some research on the internal workings of Java and it's JVM last year - and garbage collection is slow. Hopefully you won't have to do that! If you do, it'll be very slow. At least... it will be if you do it in the same way. The thing about JVM is it's JIT - or dynamic compilation. I'm not entirely sure why garbage collection was included at all - except for when a process in the JVM ends... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 00:27:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA10373 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:27:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8AD88.A2240F26@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:08:40 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: <38C8A550.69678D4F@eurocopter.de> <38C8A9D0.B9B2C839@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Of course. Although you'd have to optimise quickly - you don't want to take > > too long in optimising or else there's no point... > > As Neil (Bradley) says this is related to what kind of emulator you are doing. > Sometimes will be useful do more optimizations and sometimes less. Of course. But I haven't yet tried to emulate anything that would require amazing optimisations. I don't know, if one day I decide to emulate the Dreamcast, maybe... :)) > > But could be quite useful in dynamic compilation. But that isn't for this > > group, so I won't go there. :) > > Are you talking about that old emulation techniques discussion? I think this > group is for anything related to dynamic or static compilation or > recompilation. Althought his name and main purpose of talk about dynarec > anything about emulation is welcome here ;) (Neil could say if I'm right or > not, he is the boss) I'm currently looking into the benefits and disadvantages to various types of compilation. Dynamic compilation should be the fastest of any dynamic-style translation (so faster than recompilation - and hopefully faster than interpretation!). The downside is that it doesn't handle self-modifying code - that's what recompilation is for. But dynamic compilation should be great for arcade emulation - I don't know of an arcade game that uses self-modifying code. They may well exist, I've just not come across one. Anyway, it's something I'm researching at the moment. I will be doing some implementation at some point soon as well... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 00:37:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA10395 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:37:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003100824.JAA00999@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C8AD88.A2240F26@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 10, 2000 09:08:40 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:24:21 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Of course. But I haven't yet tried to emulate anything that would require > amazing optimisations. I don't know, if one day I decide to emulate the > Dreamcast, maybe... :)) > I think this will happen more soon than you think :) > I'm currently looking into the benefits and disadvantages to various types > of compilation. Dynamic compilation should be the fastest of any > dynamic-style translation (so faster than recompilation - and hopefully > faster than interpretation!). The downside is that it doesn't handle > self-modifying code - that's what recompilation is for. But dynamic > compilation should be great for arcade emulation - I don't know of an > arcade game that uses self-modifying code. They may well exist, I've just > not come across one. In fact what we are talking about here is about dynamic compilation. I think dynamic recompilation is the same as dynamic compilation with an algorithm for detect self-modifying code and modify the translation. And there isn't so many self-modifying code in the machines that are being emulated nowadays. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 04:51:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA11028 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:08:39 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Thanks! It's yet another mailing list to clog up my inbox and take time >away from actually doing work. But hey, I'm not going to complain about >THAT! :) I think the worst mail I ever subscribed to was SWRPG, I got about a hundred mails per day... >In actual fact, not that you can tell from my e-mail address, I am actually >British. It was the first time that I forgot to take a look at the email address... >I'm just working over here - and you'll know exactly the term - as >a praktikant. So I'm a student who actually gets paid, but then I also have >to do work as well. Nothing for nothing in this life. :o I work as a "Werkstudent", so the only difference between us too is that you have to work more and get less money for it ;-) Otherwise there isn't that much difference and we both have to do the dirty work... >Of course. Although you'd have to optimise quickly - you don't want to take >too long in optimising or else there's no point... Indeed. There is no benefit from optimised code when you spend ages optimising it only to notice that the code is executed just once. >But could be quite useful in dynamic compilation. But that isn't for this >group, so I won't go there. :) Why not? We just do some brainstorming about various techniques. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 04:51:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA11035 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:51:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:15:49 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No. Every time you find a reference (a jump) to an address the TransMap for >this page is created, so even if the block hasn't been generated yet you can do >the same test than for translated blocks. Ah, ok then you're right that you only have to test the TransMap entry. Haven't thought about that yet, but since you'll need to translate that block in the future anyway there is no reason why the TransMap page shouldn't be created earlier. >I don't know how Java really works so I can't help you. At first I was very fond of the Java idea, but now I find more and more design flaws. And about 90% of it's use today is for scroll text on the web, which is more nuisance than real use. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 04:51:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA11044 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:51:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:26:56 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yeah, the approach of "Well, if it's too slow now, we'll release it in a >few months" philosophy is always good. ;) I think they call it "really soon now" (RSN) and mean a few months. This is one of the cases where I think that I must have a different understanding of the semantics of these words than native speakers... >AFAIK there is no seperate VRAM - it's shared. So in fact, Neil is right. >Unless I'm wrong (which I doubt), in which case so is he. :) First of all it was Victor who mentioned FF8... And as far as I know RAM and VRAM are really separate in the PS. It even has a separate sound buffer! N64 has a combined memory of 4MB (plus 0.5MB parity). >But I did some research on the internal workings of Java and it's JVM last >year - and garbage collection is slow. Hopefully you won't have to do that! >If you do, it'll be very slow. At least... it will be if you do it in the >same way. That's what I thought. As far as I know it will also do GC when the application is idle, which is hard to determine for an emulator. I guess the best solution would be really to take Victor's paged TransMap approach and try to track down when the OS replaces the pages. >The thing about JVM is it's JIT - or dynamic compilation. I'm not entirely >sure why garbage collection was included at all - except for when a process >in the JVM ends... First of all I think it's kind of a joke that Sun tells us the JVM was designed with dynamic compilation in mind, because otherwise they would have introduced a bytecode to mark the beginning of a baisc block. This makes the compilers slow because they have to trace the jumps first. In my opinion JIT has to be pronounced as "shit" anyway... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 05:37:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA11161 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8F5DC.A1064E1B@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:17:16 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >In actual fact, not that you can tell from my e-mail address, I am > actually > >British. > > It was the first time that I forgot to take a look at the email > address... I don't actually look, usually, unless I'm not sure... > >I'm just working over here - and you'll know exactly the term - as > >a praktikant. So I'm a student who actually gets paid, but then I also > have > >to do work as well. Nothing for nothing in this life. :o > > I work as a "Werkstudent", so the only difference between us too is > that you have to work more and get less money for it ;-) > Otherwise there isn't that much difference and we both have to do the > dirty work... Heh, hell yeah. I don't know about the money, though - apparently my pay is really high for a student. Do you get over 3000DM/month - because if not, you aren't being paid more than me. :) And if you are, then I'm going to cry. ;) And as for dirty work, I don't believe you get any dirtier than programming in... *shudder* ADA. Which is what I have to program in. Ada 83, in fact. Which takes all the good points of OOP and removes them. Then replaces them with lots of bad points. Like... well, you don't write a class from which you can create lots of objects. You write an object. You can only create one instance of a package (equiv. to class) which is why I say you write an object. It's... yuk. :-/ > >Of course. Although you'd have to optimise quickly - you don't want to > >take too long in optimising or else there's no point... > > Indeed. There is no benefit from optimised code when you spend ages > optimising it only to notice that the code is executed just once. Especially. For this purpose, I've been thinking that I would create a struct for my pointers - or page tables. One variable to tell me where the recompiled code is - and another variable to tell me how many times I've gone through that loop - the higher it is, the more I'll optimise it. I suppose it might be a good idea to add another variable that tells me how many times I've recompiled that block of code. If it's quite high then there's no point optimising as it's quite likely it will be recompiled again. Just a couple of ideas. No idea how good they'd be in practice... > >But could be quite useful in dynamic compilation. But that isn't for > this > >group, so I won't go there. :) > > Why not? We just do some brainstorming about various techniques. Well seeing as dynamic compilation is the same as dynamic recompilation - except you don't ever recompile the code (which is why you can't use self-modifying code) - it would make sense to optimise more. You're not going to recompile anything, so the optimisations - although time consuming the first time around - would be more useful. This is, of course, IMHO. :) By the way, would you agree with these lists of techniques - and can you think of any more to add? - Interpretation - Static compilation - Static recompilation - Dynamic compilation - Dynamic recompilation I've been thinking that in terms of speed, the best ones would be (from best to worst): - Static compilation - Dynamic compilation - Static recompilation - Dynamic recompilation - Interpretation Now, the thing about that is that this is theoretical. It's possible to write an interpreter that's faster than dynamic recompilation - and possibly faster than dynamic compilation too. However... it would be a difficult job to achieve - and it would probably only be fast on a couple of programs and not generally (which is why I placed it at the bottom). They can all move. A dynamic recompiler may well be faster than static recompilation. I was intending to write a text file about all the different methods, but I've a feeling that time is against me. But hey - who knows? :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 05:43:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA11177 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:43:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:28:40 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'm currently looking into the benefits and disadvantages to various types >of compilation. Dynamic compilation should be the fastest of any >dynamic-style translation (so faster than recompilation - and hopefully >faster than interpretation!). The downside is that it doesn't handle >self-modifying code - that's what recompilation is for. But dynamic >compilation should be great for arcade emulation - I don't know of an >arcade game that uses self-modifying code. They may well exist, I've just >not come across one. >Anyway, it's something I'm researching at the moment. I will be doing some >implementation at some point soon as well... OK, now we are onto terms... BTW, this is something you could do in your work as well, Victor: specify terms. I have to admit that the following is my interpretation of terms I met many who had a different picture: First, I think the term "recompilation" is wrong. It reminds me of a reassembler, which isn't that much different from a disassembler, and we certainly don't do any decompilation here. Even "compilation" is the wrong term since this is related with high-level languages and we are surely at the lowest possible level. A more precise term would be "binary translation", because that's what we do: translate one binary code into another binary code. Then we have the difference between "dynamic" and "static": IMHO dynamic binary translation means that the program is translated during runtime. You could also talk of just-in-time, on-the-fly, on- demand, whatsoever bintrans. Static bintrans on the other hand means that the code is translated prior to runtime, which doesn't neccessarily mean that an executable file has to be produced. But that's up to discussion since most people think it's only static when they can see the executable. So what you're talking about is static binary translation, as you want to translate the whole code in a ROM before you run the game, at least that's what I understood. There is even another way to characterize different approaches, which is the way how the code generation works: Either you generate instruction per instruction with code emitters - this is what Neil does, and which could be called dynamic code generation. Or you have pre-assembled code seqences for each emulated instruction which are just copied and patched to work with the right values, which sounds like static code generation to me. So we could have the following table: Approach BinTrans CodeGen ------------------------- Neil dynamic dynamic NEStra dynamic static FX!32 static dynamic Corn? static static BTW, I'm not sure about Corn, but they claim to use static recompilation and most N64 emulators seem to use static code generation. I guess now we have enough material to discuss about ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 06:09:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA11259 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 06:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C8FD04.F2C831F9@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:47:48 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Anyway, it's something I'm researching at the moment. I will be doing > > some implementation at some point soon as well... > > OK, now we are onto terms... > BTW, this is something you could do in your work as well, Victor: > specify terms. > I have to admit that the following is my interpretation of terms I met > many who had a different picture: > > First, I think the term "recompilation" is wrong. It reminds me of a > reassembler, which isn't that much different from a disassembler, and > we certainly don't do any decompilation here. Even "compilation" is the > wrong term since this is related with high-level languages and we are > surely at the lowest possible level. > A more precise term would be "binary translation", because that's what > we do: translate one binary code into another binary code. That's fair enough. But what do you call dynamic compilation? That also performs binary translation - but it just does it once. And, for that matter, so do static compilation and recompilation. They translate binary code from one CPU to another. > Then we have the difference between "dynamic" and "static": > IMHO dynamic binary translation means that the program is translated > during runtime. You could also talk of just-in-time, on-the-fly, on- > demand, whatsoever bintrans. > Static bintrans on the other hand means that the code is translated > prior to runtime, which doesn't neccessarily mean that an executable > file has to be produced. But that's up to discussion since most people > think it's only static when they can see the executable. I'd agree with this - except that static recompilation is a little different. You see, the static part comes from compiling the code at startup. But the recompilation parts happen at run-time. At least... that's certainly my understanding of it. > So what you're talking about is static binary translation, as you want > to translate the whole code in a ROM before you run the game, at least > that's what I understood. What I call static compilation - yes. > There is even another way to characterize different approaches, which > is the way how the code generation works: > Either you generate instruction per instruction with code emitters - > this is what Neil does, and which could be called dynamic code > generation. > Or you have pre-assembled code seqences for each emulated instruction > which are just copied and patched to work with the right values, which > sounds like static code generation to me. You could use both methods in real time or in static. > So we could have the following table: > > Approach BinTrans CodeGen > ------------------------- > Neil dynamic dynamic > NEStra dynamic static > FX!32 static dynamic > Corn? static static > > BTW, I'm not sure about Corn, but they claim to use static > recompilation and most N64 emulators seem to use static code > generation. I wasn't sure either and have been discussing the same thing. Conclusion? It's static compilation (and NOT recompilation). Why? Because it runs so few games. :) > I guess now we have enough material to discuss about ;-) I hope so. See? I join a group and automatically launch what could be a huuuuge discussion! :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 06:12:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA11273 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 06:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:57:31 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I don't actually look, usually, unless I'm not sure... Sometimes it's quite interesting. One day I got a mail by someone from IBM, but he didn't contacted me anymore when I told him that all he wanted to do (a recompiling MIPS simulator) had already been done in Embra... >Heh, hell yeah. I don't know about the money, though - apparently my pay is >really high for a student. Do you get over 3000DM/month - because if not, >you aren't being paid more than me. :) Hey, not bad for a Praktikant! Actually I get less money because I don't work that much. >And as for dirty work, I don't believe you get any dirtier than programming >in... *shudder* ADA. Which is what I have to program in. Ada 83, in fact. >Which takes all the good points of OOP and removes them. Then replaces them >with lots of bad points. Like... well, you don't write a class from which >you can create lots of objects. You write an object. You can only create >one instance of a package (equiv. to class) which is why I say you write an >object. >It's... yuk. :-/ I don't know much about Ada, but I'm not a fan of it as well. Ada compilers must be monsters because they have to check so much. And there still have to be done many checks during execution so the programs are likely to be monsters as well. >Especially. For this purpose, I've been thinking that I would create a >struct for my pointers - or page tables. One variable to tell me where the >recompiled code is - and another variable to tell me how many times I've >gone through that loop - the higher it is, the more I'll optimise it. I >suppose it might be a good idea to add another variable that tells me how >many times I've recompiled that block of code. If it's quite high then >there's no point optimising as it's quite likely it will be recompiled >again. What you describe is normally referred to as "profiling". Sun does that in HotSpot and the x86-to-Alpha-translator FX!32 does it as well. But they do it while interpreting the code, then the JVM starts the JIT compiler and FX!32 runs the binary translator after runtime. I'm not sure if someone has done it with a pure dynarec yet, but it should be possible. >Well seeing as dynamic compilation is the same as dynamic recompilation - >except you don't ever recompile the code (which is why you can't use >self-modifying code) - it would make sense to optimise more. You're not >going to recompile anything, so the optimisations - although time consuming >the first time around - would be more useful. This is, of course, IMHO. :) Ah, this is your interpretation of dynamic compilation and recompilation. I think the more common one is that recompilation is already the first translation, no matter if you're able to handle self- modifying code. >By the way, would you agree with these lists of techniques - and can you >think of any more to add? >- Interpretation >- Static compilation >- Static recompilation >- Dynamic compilation >- Dynamic recompilation I think I'll have to add another feature to my characterization: copes with self-modifying code. But to your question: there is another approach called "decode caching". You don't translate the code, but store pointers to the interpretive routines while analysing the block. Possible optimisations would be to precalculate literals and use direct memory references to the simulated registers instead of the register numbers. When a cached block is encountered you simply go through the decode information and use the stored address as a function pointer with the register addresses and literals as arguments. It should be slightly faster than interpretation and more portable than recompilation since you can use high-level language for the routines. Otherwise it's much slower than a well done recompiler. >I've been thinking that in terms of speed, the best ones would be (from >best to worst): >- Static compilation >- Dynamic compilation >- Static recompilation >- Dynamic recompilation >- Interpretation >Now, the thing about that is that this is theoretical. It's possible to >write an interpreter that's faster than dynamic recompilation - and >possibly faster than dynamic compilation too. However... it would be a >difficult job to achieve - and it would probably only be fast on a couple >of programs and not generally (which is why I placed it at the bottom). >They can all move. A dynamic recompiler may well be faster than static >recompilation. I'm not sure if it's possible at all to build such a hirarchy since it largely depends on the involved machines, techniques and tricks used, and of course how well it is programmed. >I was intending to write a text file about all the different methods, but >I've a feeling that time is against me. But hey - who knows? :o That would be interesting indeed! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 06:36:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA11345 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 06:36:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C9038C.95BDAC87@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:15:40 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Heh, hell yeah. I don't know about the money, though - apparently my > >pay is really high for a student. Do you get over 3000DM/month - > >because if not, you aren't being paid more than me. :) > > Hey, not bad for a Praktikant! Actually I get less money because I > don't work that much. I've been told that it's really good for a praktikant - but I don't know what's normal. Whatever, I don't see all of that. They take about 600DM off me - that's 200 pounds - or 300 dollars - all just for tax! However cheap Germany may be, the tax is very high... > I don't know much about Ada, but I'm not a fan of it as well. Ada > compilers must be monsters because they have to check so much. And > there still have to be done many checks during execution so the > programs are likely to be monsters as well. I work for a military company, so using Ada is a good idea (especially when what I'm checking could make the difference between people living and dying)... But as a language, I hate it. > What you describe is normally referred to as "profiling". Sun does that > in HotSpot and the x86-to-Alpha-translator FX!32 does it as well. But > they do it while interpreting the code, then the JVM starts the JIT > compiler and FX!32 runs the binary translator after runtime. > I'm not sure if someone has done it with a pure dynarec yet, but it > should be possible. Ooh, and there's me thinking I've come up with a new technique. :) > Ah, this is your interpretation of dynamic compilation and > recompilation. I think the more common one is that recompilation is > already the first translation, no matter if you're able to handle self- > modifying code. It makes more sense to think in my terms. Compilation is static by nature - if you want to change something, you have to go to the start and recompile the whole thing. Recompilation can change different parts without affecting the rest. Having a definitive definition would be good - that's why it might be a good idea to write a text file. Then everyone uses my terms. :)) > >By the way, would you agree with these lists of techniques - and can > you > >think of any more to add? > >- Interpretation > >- Static compilation > >- Static recompilation > >- Dynamic compilation > >- Dynamic recompilation > > I think I'll have to add another feature to my characterization: copes > with self-modifying code. Anything that recompiles can (or should be able to!) cope with self-modifying code. > But to your question: there is another approach called "decode > caching". You don't translate the code, but store pointers to the > interpretive routines while analysing the block. Possible optimisations > would be to precalculate literals and use direct memory references to > the simulated registers instead of the register numbers. > When a cached block is encountered you simply go through the decode > information and use the stored address as a function pointer with the > register addresses and literals as arguments. > It should be slightly faster than interpretation and more portable than > recompilation since you can use high-level language for the routines. > Otherwise it's much slower than a well done recompiler. I haven't heard of this technique before, but it sounds interesting... > I'm not sure if it's possible at all to build such a hirarchy since it > largely depends on the involved machines, techniques and tricks used, > and of course how well it is programmed. Of course. You can only talk about theoretical. In theory, my table should be correct. In practice it may not be. > >I was intending to write a text file about all the different methods, > but > >I've a feeling that time is against me. But hey - who knows? :o > > That would be interesting indeed! If only because people can use my terms. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 06:56:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA11411 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 06:56:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:41:14 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >That's fair enough. But what do you call dynamic compilation? That also >performs binary translation - but it just does it once. And, for that >matter, so do static compilation and recompilation. They translate binary >code from one CPU to another. I think dynamic compilation is as problematic as dynamic recompilation since it doesn't involve compilation, and therefore is more or less consusing. I'm not sure if we can describe the whole approach by a two word term. Eg. the language Prolog normally uses a left-to-right depth-first resolution. If it would operate differently programs would show different behaviour and you'd have to make that clear. Maybe Neil B comes up with a good term, he seems to know lot's of nice terms like "depth traversal" ;-) BTW, do you two Neils have any nicknames? Otherwise I'd have to use Neil B and Neil G, which looks like I was talking about the "Spice Boys" ;-) >I'd agree with this - except that static recompilation is a little >different. You see, the static part comes from compiling the code at >startup. But the recompilation parts happen at run-time. At least... that's >certainly my understanding of it. I have to admit that this indeed is a possible interpretation of recompilation, but not the common one, which shows that the term is too ambigious to be useful. The only reason why I talk of dynamic recompilation is that this is the term which is normally used. And it's easier to write dynarec and dynbintrans ;-) >What I call static compilation - yes. That means the code is translated once and is never recompiled. Hey, you're right, since "to recompile" also means that you compile a program again it's really confusing! >I wasn't sure either and have been discussing the same thing. Conclusion? >It's static compilation (and NOT recompilation). Why? Because it runs so >few games. :) Let's say it's a hack ;-) But it runs Mario64 rather nice now and UltraHLE is a hack as well... >I hope so. See? I join a group and automatically launch what could be a >huuuuge discussion! :)) That's the positive thing about this list, we're realtive few people with decend knowledge and therefore can have really productive discussions. OK, let's see how many different features a binary translator can have: * on-demand vs. at-once translation Well, there are tiny little stages between these two, because the translated blocks can vary in size denpending if you interpret on unconditional or all jumps as block terminator. Also FX!32 - though static - does only translate those "translation units" for which it has profiling information. * code generation vs. instruction templates * self-modifying code aware vs. one-time translation * memory cached code vs. file stored code Now we only have to combine these features and have to find a nice term for each combination ;-) Now for something completely different... Just for interest: In which part of Germany do you work? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 07:14:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA11465 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:59:24 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I've been told that it's really good for a praktikant - but I don't know >what's normal. I think it's quite good. I got about the same when I worked full-time as a Werkstudent. >Whatever, I don't see all of that. They take about 600DM off >me - that's 200 pounds - or 300 dollars - all just for tax! However cheap >Germany may be, the tax is very high... Yeah, tell me about it... >I work for a military company, Let me guess: It has something to do with helicopters? >so using Ada is a good idea (especially when >what I'm checking could make the difference between people living and >dying)... Sometimes there is need for a safe language, true. >But as a language, I hate it. I haven't programmed in Ada so I cannot say I hate it but I know that it is sometimes a bit strange. >Ooh, and there's me thinking I've come up with a new technique. :) Yeah, there is always someone who is faster. But shouldn't keep you from trying to do it better than they have ;-) >It makes more sense to think in my terms. Compilation is static by nature - >if you want to change something, you have to go to the start and recompile >the whole thing. Recompilation can change different parts without affecting >the rest. This almost means that dynamic compilation is an oxymoron ;-) But there are indeed some compilers which work with dynamic compilation. There are the approaches by Dawson Engler DCG (Dynamic Code Generation) and VCODE, and I think there are also the Self compilers, although I didn't find much information on these. I'll have to check if Impact belongs to the same group. >Having a definitive definition would be good - that's why it might be a >good idea to write a text file. Then everyone uses my terms. :)) It would be nice to have standard terms, but I doubt that many people would care about these :-( >Anything that recompiles can (or should be able to!) cope with >self-modifying code. With your interpretation of recompilation, of course. [decode caching] >I haven't heard of this technique before, but it sounds interesting... Neither did I, till one guy I know told me about it. He works for ARM and wrote a document about it as they might be using this method in their official ARMulator. But he couldn't tell me much more about it since of a NDA... >Of course. You can only talk about theoretical. In theory, my table should >be correct. In practice it may not be. Agreed. >If only because people can use my terms. ;) I hope you'll include also some useful information ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 07:21:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA11482 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:21:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C90E90.D7773921@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:02:40 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I think dynamic compilation is as problematic as dynamic recompilation > since it doesn't involve compilation, and therefore is more or less > consusing. Er... yes, it does. It definitely involves compiling. As it compiles from one CPU to another. I do agree that the terms are confusing however... > I'm not sure if we can describe the whole approach by a two word term. > Eg. the language Prolog normally uses a left-to-right depth-first > resolution. If it would operate differently programs would show > different behaviour and you'd have to make that clear. > Maybe Neil B comes up with a good term, he seems to know lot's of nice > terms like "depth traversal" ;-) He just grabs a dictionary and picks out two words that sound cool. ;) > BTW, do you two Neils have any nicknames? Otherwise I'd have to use > Neil B and Neil G, which looks like I was talking about the "Spice > Boys" ;-) Damn! You've found out our plan! ;p I would guess that NB and NG would be a start. It's less to type as well. :) Lots of Neil's in the emu world. Neil Bradley, Neill (okay, not spelt the same!) Corlett and... me! :o > >I'd agree with this - except that static recompilation is a little > >different. You see, the static part comes from compiling the code at > >startup. But the recompilation parts happen at run-time. At least... > that's > >certainly my understanding of it. > > I have to admit that this indeed is a possible interpretation of > recompilation, but not the common one, which shows that the term is too > ambigious to be useful. > The only reason why I talk of dynamic recompilation is that this is the > term which is normally used. And it's easier to write dynarec and > dynbintrans ;-) Well, we'll have to come up with some new words then. We could confuse the matter and use acronyms that already exist like SMTP: Simple Method of Transferring Programs (from one CPU to another). :)) We do need to define the methods. I was here thinking my definition was the more commonly accepted one. :o > >What I call static compilation - yes. > > That means the code is translated once and is never recompiled. > Hey, you're right, since "to recompile" also means that you compile a > program again it's really confusing! That's right. That's why I thought my definitions were correct! > >I wasn't sure either and have been discussing the same thing. > Conclusion? > >It's static compilation (and NOT recompilation). Why? Because it runs > so > >few games. :) > > Let's say it's a hack ;-) > But it runs Mario64 rather nice now and UltraHLE is a hack as well... I haven't tried it, actually - N64 emulation isn't my thing. I prefer arcade games. But I will give it a try - just to see how well they've managed it! :) > >I hope so. See? I join a group and automatically launch what could be > a > >huuuuge discussion! :)) > > That's the positive thing about this list, we're realtive few people > with decend knowledge and therefore can have really productive > discussions. Decent knowledge. Heh, that's what YOU think. Wait a while and then you'll see that I know nothing! ;) > OK, let's see how many different features a binary translator can have: > > * on-demand vs. at-once translation > Well, there are tiny little stages between these two, because the > translated blocks can vary in size denpending if you interpret on > unconditional or all jumps as block terminator. Also FX!32 - though > static - does only translate those "translation units" for which it has > profiling information. What *is* FX!32 anyway? I don't think I've heard of it before - or is it something not yet released? > * code generation vs. instruction templates > > * self-modifying code aware vs. one-time translation > > * memory cached code vs. file stored code > > Now we only have to combine these features and have to find a nice term > for each combination ;-) We could be plain nasty and call each "Method #1", "Method #2" and so on... :)) > Now for something completely different... > Just for interest: In which part of Germany do you work? Muenchen. Or, for non Germans - Munich. I'm working for Eurocopter - a military company which writes the software for automation of helicopters and their intrinsic machinery. I'm working specifically on the networking part of the Tiger helicopter - the Tiger being Europe's answer to the Apache. How about yourself? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 09:09:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA11810 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:09:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:53:16 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Er... yes, it does. It definitely involves compiling. As it compiles from >one CPU to another. I do agree that the terms are confusing however... But then it sounds is if you decompile a program to a high-level language to recompile it on the second platform... >He just grabs a dictionary and picks out two words that sound cool. ;) He claims that "depth traversal" is from some compiler book. But I believe taht some bands produce their lyrics that way ;-) >Damn! You've found out our plan! ;p Hehe, well with Neil you'd actually have a real musician at least ;-) >I would guess that NB and NG would be a start. I hope we don't have to use these acronyms for other topics ;-) >Lots of Neil's in the emu world. Neil Bradley, Neill (okay, not spelt the >same!) Corlett and... me! :o I think there are even more Davids but that name is generally more common than Neil I guess. >Well, we'll have to come up with some new words then. We could confuse the >matter and use acronyms that already exist like SMTP: Simple Method of >Transferring Programs (from one CPU to another). :)) Or BOOT: Binary Object-code On-demand Translator ;-) >We do need to define the methods. I was here thinking my definition was the >more commonly accepted one. :o I might be wrong but I got the picture that dynamic recompilation doesn't have to involve regeneration of code in case of a self- modifying program. Also with dynamic compilation it's more likely that you mean a compiler which compiles programs in such a way that some routines are generated during runtime because these might run much faster when you know some of the parameters and can work with more constants. But this has nothing to do with binary translation. >That's right. That's why I thought my definitions were correct! I think I noticed once that you call a binary translator a recompiler and also recompile high-level programs, but I already had a clear picture about the topic and only said that the term isn't perfect. I didn't think that this wrong term could also lead to a (partly) wrong understanding of the method. But you're perfectly right that it's possible to interpret it that way. The only problem is that most others have a different interpretation. I wonder who came up with the term dynamic recompilation anyway. The older commercial or university projects use the term binary translation. Maybe it's due to the so often quoted Ardi whitepaper about Executor, which is more confusing than helpful. >I haven't tried it, actually - N64 emulation isn't my thing. I prefer >arcade games. But I will give it a try - just to see how well they've >managed it! :) With my Voodoo Banshee I get no graphics glitches, but I have some with UltraHLE and Nemu64. And the sound might not be perfect, but it works. The only problem is that there won't be much apart from Mario64 that works. >Decent knowledge. Heh, that's what YOU think. Wait a while and then you'll >see that I know nothing! ;) Don't we all? ;-) Actually Victor and I are mainly theoreticians with the only difference that he started about 2 months ago and I'm insterested in the topic for over one and a half years now. Neil didn't care much about the theories and started on his own, so he wasn't less spoiled by some of the common but necessarily helpful ideas. If you're interested, I collected a page about almost any information on this topic on the web. I don't think anymore that everything is that useful, especially the source codes, but I might want to take a look: http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/emulation/dynrcomp.htm >What *is* FX!32 anyway? I don't think I've heard of it before - or is it >something not yet released? It's a commercial tool originally developed by Digital Equipment (RIP), which should help to have more software for WinNT on the Alpha platform. When it encounters a new x86 NT application the program is interpreted and profiling information gathered. After you've left the application the binary translator uses the profiling info to produce optimised Alpha code and stores it in a database. When you start the program again those parts you visited before should run much faster because FX!32 just loads the translation units (a bit larger than basic blocks to be able to perform global optimisation) from the database. You can find a link to the FX!32 whitepaper on the above page as well. >We could be plain nasty and call each "Method #1", "Method #2" and so on... >:)) Or we build a multi-dimensional feature matrix and then refer to the approaches as A3betaII ;-) >Muenchen. Or, for non Germans - Munich. I've been to Muenchen once but I didn't see much of the city because I mainly went there to see the Alan Parsons gig in the Philharmonie. >I'm working for Eurocopter - a >military company which writes the software for automation of helicopters >and their intrinsic machinery. I'm working specifically on the networking >part of the Tiger helicopter - the Tiger being Europe's answer to the >Apache. Well, I guessed that from the name ;-) I haven't heard of the Tiger but I know the Apache of course. >How about yourself? I live in Erlangen, which is near to Nuernberg, or Nuremberg in the American spelling. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 09:43:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA11945 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:43:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38C92FED.DDB63229@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:25:01 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Er... yes, it does. It definitely involves compiling. As it compiles > from > >one CPU to another. I do agree that the terms are confusing however... > > But then it sounds is if you decompile a program to a high-level > language to recompile it on the second platform... Hmm. I see what you're saying, but I guess it's a distinction between how we see things. I see compiling as converting from something that is unexecutable to become something executable. > >He just grabs a dictionary and picks out two words that sound cool. ;) > > He claims that "depth traversal" is from some compiler book. But I > believe taht some bands produce their lyrics that way ;-) What, by using a compiler book? ;) > >Damn! You've found out our plan! ;p > > Hehe, well with Neil you'd actually have a real musician at least ;-) True. And I'm a musician as well. I've even been asked to join a countries orchestra and everything. :) I didn't accept, though. Not enough time! :o > >I would guess that NB and NG would be a start. > > I hope we don't have to use these acronyms for other topics ;-) I don't know... We could refer to NBs method of recompilation as the "NB method" and my method(s) as the "NG method". It has a nice ring to it... ;) > >Lots of Neil's in the emu world. Neil Bradley, Neill (okay, not spelt > the > >same!) Corlett and... me! :o > > I think there are even more Davids but that name is generally more > common than Neil I guess. Are there? I guess I hadn't noticed. I'm thinking... yes, I think you're right. :) > >Well, we'll have to come up with some new words then. We could confuse > the > >matter and use acronyms that already exist like SMTP: Simple Method of > >Transferring Programs (from one CPU to another). :)) > > Or BOOT: Binary Object-code On-demand Translator ;-) I could try more, but I'm going home in a bit because my brain is dead. I reckon that a couple more of those would just about destroy my brain for the rest of today. :) > >We do need to define the methods. I was here thinking my definition > was the > >more commonly accepted one. :o > > I might be wrong but I got the picture that dynamic recompilation > doesn't have to involve regeneration of code in case of a self- > modifying program. I was definitely under the impression that recompilation was mainly for the use of anything that uses self-modification. You can also use it on things that don't self-modify - but you can use dynamic compilation on that too (which should be faster as you don't need to check to see if code has been modified). > Also with dynamic compilation it's more likely that you mean a compiler > which compiles programs in such a way that some routines are generated > during runtime because these might run much faster when you know some > of the parameters and can work with more constants. But this has > nothing to do with binary translation. No, that's to do with optimisation. > >That's right. That's why I thought my definitions were correct! > > I think I noticed once that you call a binary translator a recompiler > and also recompile high-level programs, but I already had a clear > picture about the topic and only said that the term isn't perfect. I > didn't think that this wrong term could also lead to a (partly) wrong > understanding of the method. But you're perfectly right that it's > possible to interpret it that way. The only problem is that most others > have a different interpretation. > I wonder who came up with the term dynamic recompilation anyway. The > older commercial or university projects use the term binary > translation. Maybe it's due to the so often quoted Ardi whitepaper > about Executor, which is more confusing than helpful. I'm not sure. I'm sure I've seen the term used before ARDI's Executor - but I can't remember where! :o > >I haven't tried it, actually - N64 emulation isn't my thing. I prefer > >arcade games. But I will give it a try - just to see how well they've > >managed it! :) > > With my Voodoo Banshee I get no graphics glitches, but I have some with > UltraHLE and Nemu64. And the sound might not be perfect, but it works. > The only problem is that there won't be much apart from Mario64 that > works. The only decent game I've seen for the N64 is Zelda64 (ignoring Mario64). I wouldn't really use one because the resolution annoys me too much - 192x256! And then they bi-linear filter it, so you effectively halve that resolution. If a PC game was brought out like that, it wouldn't sell. So because I don't like the console, I don't generally look at the emulators. Technically they're brilliant - but I'd prefer to look at the specs in this particular case. :) > >Decent knowledge. Heh, that's what YOU think. Wait a while and then > >you'll see that I know nothing! ;) > > Don't we all? ;-) > Actually Victor and I are mainly theoreticians with the only difference > that he started about 2 months ago and I'm insterested in the topic for > over one and a half years now. > Neil didn't care much about the theories and started on his own, so he > wasn't less spoiled by some of the common but necessarily helpful > ideas. I'm mainly into the theory - but I am starting to put something into practice soon. Possibly a dynamically compiling 68000 CPU core. I've got all the access to info about that processor that I need here (68000 series is a standard military CPU) so it's fine by me. And for arcade games, it seems the best solution. Who knows? :) > If you're interested, I collected a page about almost any information > on this topic on the web. I don't think anymore that everything is that > useful, especially the source codes, but I might want to take a look: > http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/emulation/dynrcomp.htm Could be useful - thanks! I can't check it at the moment (at work I have 1hr of Internet access a day - between 12 and 1pm), but I can check it when I get home. :) > >What *is* FX!32 anyway? I don't think I've heard of it before - or is > >it something not yet released? > > It's a commercial tool originally developed by Digital Equipment (RIP), > which should help to have more software for WinNT on the Alpha > platform. When it encounters a new x86 NT application the program is > interpreted and profiling information gathered. After you've left the > application the binary translator uses the profiling info to produce > optimised Alpha code and stores it in a database. When you start the > program again those parts you visited before should run much faster > because FX!32 just loads the translation units (a bit larger than basic > blocks to be able to perform global optimisation) from the database. > You can find a link to the FX!32 whitepaper on the above page as well. Ah, I know it now! I didn't know how it operated, though. It does sound very interesting. I definitely like to learn new techniques. It's just that I get tired of learning and I like to put things into practice. :) > >We could be plain nasty and call each "Method #1", "Method #2" and so > on... > >:)) > > Or we build a multi-dimensional feature matrix and then refer to the > approaches as A3betaII ;-) So long as we don't have people inside the Matrix called "Morpheus" or "Neo", we'll be sorted. :)) > >Muenchen. Or, for non Germans - Munich. > > I've been to Muenchen once but I didn't see much of the city because I > mainly went there to see the Alan Parsons gig in the Philharmonie. Ah, right! I know where that is... I think. I've only been here about 8-9 weeks now. Not long at all. And I spoke no German when I came out here either. I now speak... well, a fair bit. I can go shopping - or out - at least. Which is a good thing. Mind you, saying "Eine Maß bier" is always good. Apart from the fact that 1 litre of strong beer is quite a lot. :) > >I'm working for Eurocopter - a military company which writes the > >software for automation of helicopters and their intrinsic machinery. > >I'm working specifically on the networking part of the Tiger > >helicopter - the Tiger being Europe's answer to the Apache. > > Well, I guessed that from the name ;-) You guessed that I worked on the networking part of the Tiger just from the name? My god! ;) > I haven't heard of the Tiger but I know the Apache of course. The Tiger was used in the Gulf War - when it was fully machine operated. The project is finished in 2003, so not long to go. I finish in September anyway... > >How about yourself? > > I live in Erlangen, which is near to Nuernberg, or Nuremberg in the > American spelling. I know Nuernberg, I was there about 6 weeks ago. And it snowed. A lot. And then I came back to Munich - where there was even more snow! Nürnberg is not so far away. A couple of us went there with a Wochenende ticket because they're so cheap. :) Quite nice place. Especially the Pizza Hut. One of nicest pizzas I've had in ages. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 10 11:48:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12479 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:48:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:33:08 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id LAA12476 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Hmm. I see what you're saying, but I guess it's a distinction between how >we see things. I see compiling as converting from something that is >unexecutable to become something executable. I guess now we need a dictionary to look up what compilation origianlly means, but I think doesn't help much. >What, by using a compiler book? ;) That could lead to better lyrics ;-) No, I mean picking a few words from a dictionary and the chorus line is ready... >True. And I'm a musician as well. I've even been asked to join a countries >orchestra and everything. :) Really? What kind of instrument(s) do you play? >I didn't accept, though. Not enough time! :o "Time", I think I've heard that word a while ago... >I don't know... We could refer to NBs method of recompilation as the "NB >method" and my method(s) as the "NG method". It has a nice ring to it... ;) Let's see what Neil B has to say about it ;-) >> Or BOOT: Binary Object-code On-demand Translator ;-) >I could try more, but I'm going home in a bit because my brain is dead. I >reckon that a couple more of those would just about destroy my brain for >the rest of today. :) In my case that wouldn't matter much ;-) >I was definitely under the impression that recompilation was mainly for the >use of anything that uses self-modification. You can also use it on things >that don't self-modify - but you can use dynamic compilation on that too >(which should be faster as you don't need to check to see if code has been >modified). Actually many dynarecs still don't test for changed code. >The only decent game I've seen for the N64 is Zelda64 (ignoring Mario64). I >wouldn't really use one because the resolution annoys me too much - >192x256! And then they bi-linear filter it, so you effectively halve that >resolution. If a PC game was brought out like that, it wouldn't sell. That's the nice thing with emulation, you don't have to run it in the original resolution ;-) >So because I don't like the console, I don't generally look at the >emulators. Technically they're brilliant - but I'd prefer to look at the >specs in this particular case. :) I'm not the console freak as well. I'm more interested in old computers. It's great to find out how an outdated operating system works. I'm mainly interested in console emulation because the emulation is very challenging and you can see all the dirty tricks at work. >I'm mainly into the theory - but I am starting to put something into >practice soon. Possibly a dynamically compiling 68000 CPU core. I've got >all the access to info about that processor that I need here (68000 series >is a standard military CPU) so it's fine by me. I didn't know that they prefer one of my favourite processors ;-) >And for arcade games, it >seems the best solution. Who knows? :) Do you already know which one you want to emulate? >Could be useful - thanks! I can't check it at the moment (at work I have >1hr of Internet access a day - between 12 and 1pm), but I can check it when >I get home. :) Uh, that's bad. I guess they want you to work instead... Well, at least email seems to work all of the time ;-) >> Or we build a multi-dimensional feature matrix and then refer to the >> approaches as A3betaII ;-) >So long as we don't have people inside the Matrix called "Morpheus" or >"Neo", we'll be sorted. :)) We just program or agents to be better than in the film ;-) >Ah, right! I know where that is... I think. I think it's somewhere near the Isar, but that's true for a lot of places in München... >I've only been here about 8-9 >weeks now. Not long at all. And I spoke no German when I came out here >either. I now speak... well, a fair bit. Not bad for such a short time, and German surely isn't that easy. >I can go shopping - or out - at >least. Which is a good thing. Mind you, saying "Eine Maß bier" is always >good. Apart from the fact that 1 litre of strong beer is quite a lot. :) Yeah, I know. But in Bavaria this is one of the essencial sentences ;-) BTW, NB thinks that their micro breweries have the best beer. Maybe you can convince him that the German beer is the best ;-) Another question, which part in Britain are you from? >You guessed that I worked on the networking part of the Tiger just from the >name? My god! ;) I'm great, am I? ;-) No, I guessed that it must be something with helicopters. >The Tiger was used in the Gulf War - when it was fully machine operated. >The project is finished in 2003, so not long to go. I finish in September >anyway... By then you'll be able to order "Zwo Maß Bier" ;-) >I know Nuernberg, I was there about 6 weeks ago. And it snowed. A lot. And >then I came back to Munich - where there was even more snow! Yeah, normally we have snow before and after Christmas but not on Christmas, so it was a big surprise this year that we even had snow then. >Nürnberg is >not so far away. A couple of us went there with a Wochenende ticket because >they're so cheap. :) Maybe, I don't go by train that often. >Quite nice place. Especially the Pizza Hut. One of nicest pizzas I've had >in ages. :) Well, if you are in Nuernberg you shouldn't eat a pizza at Pizza Hut but the great "Nuernberger Bratwuerste"! And Bamberg is even nicer. There they have a very good beer: Schlenkerla smoke beer. Note for the others in the list: I'm sorry that we got a bit off topic... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 08:46:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17982 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001001bf8b76$6ea3e5e0$80ed06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:21:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, >>What, by using a compiler book? ;) > >That could lead to better lyrics ;-) In the case of certain bands, for sure. Especially these all-male groups. :)) >>True. And I'm a musician as well. I've even been asked to join a >>countries orchestra and everything. :) > >Really? What kind of instrument(s) do you play? The violin is my instrument, but I can just about play any stringed instrument. I'm not very good at things like the guitar, though... >>I don't know... We could refer to NBs method of recompilation as the >>"NB method" and my method(s) as the "NG method". It has a nice ring to >>it... ;) > >Let's see what Neil B has to say about it ;-) Okay. Neil, what do you have to say? ;) >>I could try more, but I'm going home in a bit because my brain is >>dead. I reckon that a couple more of those would just about destroy my brain >>for the rest of today. :) > >In my case that wouldn't matter much ;-) It wouldn't make much difference in my case either. :) >>I was definitely under the impression that recompilation was mainly >>for the use of anything that uses self-modification. You can also use it on >> things that don't self-modify - but you can use dynamic compilation on that >>too (which should be faster as you don't need to check to see if code has >>been modified). > >Actually many dynarecs still don't test for changed code. If that's the case, then they're not dynarecs. You've GOT to change the code else you aren't REcompiling. >>The only decent game I've seen for the N64 is Zelda64 (ignoring >>Mario64). I wouldn't really use one because the resolution annoys me too much - >>192x256! And then they bi-linear filter it, so you effectively halve >>that resolution. If a PC game was brought out like that, it wouldn't sell. > >That's the nice thing with emulation, you don't have to run it in the >original resolution ;-) That's true. And in the majority of cases - you CAN'T run it in the original resolution. :) >I'm mainly interested in console emulation because the emulation is >very challenging and you can see all the dirty tricks at work. It's arcade games that interest me - for the same reason. :) >I didn't know that they prefer one of my favourite processors ;-) It's a safe CPU, so the military like it. :) >>And for arcade games, it seems the best solution. Who knows? :) > >Do you already know which one you want to emulate? Probably emulate the System16 games. Apparently the source for System16 sucks ass, which is why no-one has bothered to update it. I'm just going to rewrite it (see, Neil? I follow your philosophy also! ;) )... >>I've only been here about 8-9 weeks now. Not long at all. And I spoke no German >>when I came out here either. I now speak... well, a fair bit. > >Not bad for such a short time, and German surely isn't that easy. No, it isn't. But I already speak 3 languages, so it's another one under my belt. The difficult thing about German is that you can refer to any noun (or object) in 3 ways - masculine, feminine or neutral. French has two ways and I've figured out most of those. English has one - neutral. The same for Welsh (my other language). But Germans - you don't half come up with some strange ideas. ;) >Yeah, I know. But in Bavaria this is one of the essencial sentences ;-) I know! :o >BTW, NB thinks that their micro breweries have the best beer. Maybe you >can convince him that the German beer is the best ;-) Neil, German beer is quite possibly the best in the world. Why do I say this? Their entire YEAR is based around beer festivals. Yes, they like beer over here. And I've had some of the nicest beer ever while I've been over here. The Augustiner brews some REALLY nice beer. Besides, what decent beer is brewed in America? The only famous one is Budweiser - which I don't mind, but isn't particularly brilliant... >Another question, which part in Britain are you from? Chester. I imagine you've heard of it, it's a big tourist attraction. :) >No, I guessed that it must be something with helicopters. Of course. I'd have figured the same from an @eurocopter.de e-mail address. :) >By then you'll be able to order "Zwo Maß Bier" ;-) And by then I might be able to drink them. Maybe. I think I'd be going to the toilet a lot, though. :)) >>Nürnberg is not so far away. A couple of us went there with a Wochenende ticket >>because they're so cheap. :) > >Maybe, I don't go by train that often. I don't have a car over here, so it's my main form of transport... >>Quite nice place. Especially the Pizza Hut. One of nicest pizzas I've >>had in ages. :) > >Well, if you are in Nuernberg you shouldn't eat a pizza at Pizza Hut >but the great "Nuernberger Bratwuerste"! I've never heard of it! :o >And Bamberg is even nicer. There they have a very good beer: >Schlenkerla smoke beer. I'll try and visit it sometime. I've already been up to north Germany (I went to Magdeburg to visit a longtime friend) and I intend to visit a lot of Germany (and Europe!) while I'm over here... >Note for the others in the list: I'm sorry that we got a bit off >topic... So am I. What am I saying? No I'm not! ;) At least about 3/4 of it is on-topic. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 12:46:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA18625 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:46:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:46:46 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C7711A.5C97887C@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > What I meant is: if you'd be using all the compiler optimisation tricks > > > apart from simple peephole optimisation it could be a bit slow. > > How so? > I think he means that you're checking for bad code and converting it into > good code. Bad code being code which takes 5 instructions to achieve the > same as one or two instructions could do. I still don't think it would be slow. Peephole optimization would simply be a pattern matching algorithm of sorts, and it's only run at recompilation time. > I agree. You shouldn't program to the people with the best computers, you > should program for the worst. Why? Well, generally speaking, doing this > makes things run faster for ALL the computers - all the way up to the > fastest computers. Bingo. If everyone did that, we wouldn't need anything faster than Pentium 200s to do much of anything. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 13:27:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18795 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:27:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:27:19 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C777B5.A8271624@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It'd be cool if you could! > No I think you can do 'mov esi,[PageMap[56h]+156h]' if you know that > when is created a TransMapPage it isn't erased later (or if it's > erased then all code that jumps to this page is erased too). > PageMap[56] it's get in translation time, I think the confusion is in > how I have called it. Perhaps: Oh, I get ya. It's a "compled time 'pageMap[56]'" that gets turned in to a constant during recompilation time. > P.S.: You write pretty fast ;) How many mails have you wrote last hour? 8 or 9 big whoppers to the list. Too many. I'm now officially backed up on email again... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 13:29:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18806 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:29:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:29:04 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C77934.15BA190@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I agree. You shouldn't program to the people with the best computers, you > > should program for the worst. Why? Well, generally speaking, doing this > > makes things run faster for ALL the computers - all the way up to the > > fastest computers. > This would be really interesting if the PC game programmers did it. You keep saying "PC Game programmers". *ANY* Programmer who writes games for any modern machines does this. > > Agreed. It's a bit of a bummer really... > > I'm an old school demo coder. I agree with this philosophy. :) > A bit more assembler (or optimized C code) and less Java/Visual > Basic/Object coding could that a game (as FF8 that works well in a > 1MB, 25 Mhz machine and needs a Pentium II with 64 MB to work) will > work a reasonable machine not in a monster machine. What chaps my ass is the number of people who program in C++ and have absolutely no idea why, but they think it's object oriented just because it's C++, and don't understand that Object Oriented Programming is a design methodology - not a language. You can do OOP in *ANY* language. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 13:31:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18822 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:31:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:31:35 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <38C77C3B.6D2551E5@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > The big disadvantage to "stopping every once in a while" is that you have > > to design your execution path so that it "breaks out" of what it's doing > > for a while. The less you have to break out from doing, the faster the > > service is going to be. > Do you mean a kind of event handled emulator? (I think I'm using the > wrong words ....). Separate thread. For audio, the hardware can call you back when it needs more data. For controllers, they're all interrupt driven (with the exception of the joystick which can be simluated). Under any modern OS you get callbacks when they're moved/hit, etc... > Use interruptions to handle I/O in the emulator and > do it in the main loop? No need to do it in any loop. Any OS you're running under can handle such a task. Under DOS they're inside the interrupt handler. Under Windows, it's message pumps and threads. It seems so obvious to me, yet I'm floored by others who still insist, in this day and age, on POLLING devices that are interrupt driven. Polling is for sissys. > > Zillions more ideas where that came from... > Really? I love discuss about new ideas ;) Yeah, me too, but I don't have that much time. ;( -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 13:38:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18840 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:38:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:38:33 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Oh, ... I think you are right, but the idea is the same. > Sure, but my knowledge of x86 assembler still isn't that good so I > wanted to ask... One minor nit: Assembly - Nmemonics representing machine opcodes Assembler - The program that assembles the assembly and emits a file Please make a note of it. ;-) > >> /want to create code for it as well. But you're always free to jump > >> back to the dispatcher of course. > >But if you don't destroy the TransMapPages you don't need to do this > >so. > What I meant is the case like in Neil's code where he already includes > a direct jump even when the block isn't generated yet. Or you can call the recompiler with the address of the block that isn't generated yet and it'll be able to recompile the code and always know the address to jump to (I.E. depth traversal). > You have the > same with intra-page jumps, but it might occur on inter-page jumps too. Another nit - no hyphens are needed here. ;-) > I'm not sure what you mean, but I was just wondering if the garbage > collection mechanism of Java could be of use for us. But given the fact > how many useful things I found in a JVM yet I don't think so. I guess > we can come up with a better solution for our needs anyway. Nothing in Java is useful to us. Or anyone else for that matter. ;-) > >This is my idea, track system calls and traps to know when code is > loaded and > >erased. > That will be hard though. First of all you need to find out which > system call does this and it hopefully works for dynamic libs as well. > And this doesn't work with dynamically generated code, but who does > this anyway? ;-) I've only found a few minor examples of this. I know of one arcade game that does, but it's relatively minor. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 14:41:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA18974 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:41:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:41:12 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C8F5DC.A1064E1B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > By the way, would you agree with these lists of techniques - and can you > think of any more to add? > > - Interpretation > - Static compilation > - Static recompilation > - Dynamic compilation > - Dynamic recompilation We should probably define what they all mean first... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 14:45:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA18994 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:45:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:45:38 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > First, I think the term "recompilation" is wrong. It reminds me of a > reassembler, which isn't that much different from a disassembler, and > we certainly don't do any decompilation here. Compilation means aggregating groups of instructions/operations into smaller groups of operations. We are optimizing the code somewhat, and this makes compilation a correct term for what we're doing. Perhaps "Dynamic translation" is a better term. > A more precise term would be "binary translation", because that's what > we do: translate one binary code into another binary code. There's more to it than that, though. It's not just simple translation. The argument can be made that we're translating C code into assembly as well, and therefore it's a translation rather than a compilation. > So what you're talking about is static binary translation, as you want > to translate the whole code in a ROM before you run the game, at least > that's what I understood. Interestingly enough, in theory my approach (with a self-referrential recompile) can do exactly this. Of course it may not be able to in the case of indirect jumps, but it should be possible. > Either you generate instruction per instruction with code emitters - > this is what Neil does, and which could be called dynamic code > generation. But also remember that my code emitters adapt to the conditions. So it really is dynamic. > Or you have pre-assembled code seqences for each emulated instruction > which are just copied and patched to work with the right values, which > sounds like static code generation to me. Static code generation is just a one time translation, and from there you don't need the original anymore (in theory). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 14:48:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19014 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:48:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:48:20 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C8FD04.F2C831F9@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > prior to runtime, which doesn't neccessarily mean that an executable > > file has to be produced. But that's up to discussion since most people > > think it's only static when they can see the executable. > I'd agree with this - except that static recompilation is a little > different. You see, the static part comes from compiling the code at > startup. But the recompilation parts happen at run-time. At least... that's > certainly my understanding of it. Let's say you have a dynamic recompiler that translates code and puts in code snippets for handling addresses it hasn't recompiled yet. Then you modify the code to call itself with any address it doesn't know/understand so those snippets of code are no longer needed, so by the time a depth traversal is done, everything has been recompiled. Whether or not you recompile all up front or at run time has very little effect on the code being generated (with the exception of the code snippets to handle the unknown addresses). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 14:52:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19032 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:52:01 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <38C9038C.95BDAC87@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I think I'll have to add another feature to my characterization: copes > > with self-modifying code. > Anything that recompiles can (or should be able to!) cope with > self-modifying code. Not necessarily true. Let's say there's a chunk of RAM at 4000h that has been recompiled. You now have a recompiled chunk. You'd need to have some way of knowing if a recompiled region got "dirty" so that you'd chuck your old recompiled block and know to recompile it. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 14:54:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19047 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:54:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > BTW, do you two Neils have any nicknames? Otherwise I'd have to use > Neil B and Neil G, which looks like I was talking about the "Spice > Boys" ;-) Neil is my nickname. Christopher is my first name, but there are too damn many Chris's in the world. So I go by Neil. NB Is cool with me! > That means the code is translated once and is never recompiled. > Hey, you're right, since "to recompile" also means that you compile a > program again it's really confusing! Kinda like refried beans! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 15:02:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19076 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:02:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:02:31 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >What, by using a compiler book? ;) > That could lead to better lyrics ;-) > No, I mean picking a few words from a dictionary and the chorus line is > ready... Words just detract from the music anyway. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 15:07:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19104 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:07:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:23:36 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >One minor nit: >Assembly - Nmemonics representing machine opcodes >Assembler - The program that assembles the assembly and emits a file >Please make a note of it. ;-) Oops, sorry. In German it's "Assembler Programmierung" instead of "assembly programming"... BTW, the word is "mnemonics" ;-) >> You have the >> same with intra-page jumps, but it might occur on inter-page jumps too. >Another nit - no hyphens are needed here. ;-) So is it an error, or is it at least acceptable? I think it makes much clearer which words form a compound. >Nothing in Java is useful to us. Or anyone else for that matter. ;-) Yeah, that's what I think too. >> And this doesn't work with dynamically generated code, but who does >> this anyway? ;-) >I've only found a few minor examples of this. I know of one arcade game >that does, but it's relatively minor. Well, it should have been a joke since *we* generate dynamic code ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 15:07:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19111 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:50:52 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id PAA19108 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >In the case of certain bands, for sure. Especially these all-male groups. >:)) It depends. For German lyrics Herbert Grönemeyer is quite good and Sting has good lyrics as well. But I hear much jazz where you don't have much lyrics anyway... >The violin is my instrument, but I can just about play any stringed >instrument. I'm not very good at things like the guitar, though... The violin is a nice instrument if it's played right, otherwise it's a torture instrument ;-) >Okay. Neil, what do you have to say? ;) It seems he hasn't read this message yet... >If that's the case, then they're not dynarecs. You've GOT to change the code >else you aren't REcompiling. Just as I said, the term is surely used in the wrong way... >Probably emulate the System16 games. Apparently the source for System16 >sucks ass, which is why no-one has bothered to update it. I'm just going to >rewrite it (see, Neil? I follow your philosophy also! ;) )... I heard of System 16, but I cannot remember right now which games it ran... >No, it isn't. But I already speak 3 languages, so it's another one under my >belt. The difficult thing about German is that you can refer to any noun (or >object) in 3 ways - masculine, feminine or neutral. I think you have the same problem with some other Germanic or even Roman languages, but in German you really have some weird examples, like the difference between "das Schild" (the sign) and "der Schild" (the shield). One English native speaker told me that what disturbed him most is the fact that we use all 3 genders for cutlery: der Löffel, die Gabel, das Messer! >French has two ways and >I've figured out most of those. English has one - neutral. I don't know Old English but I guess you'll find more genders there as well. >The same for Welsh (my other language). Wow, there are not many people who can claim that they know Welsh! How did you learn that one? The only older language apart from Latin I ever learnt is Middle High German, but that often enough sounds just like the Bavarian dialect ;-) You only have to learn some bits of Grammar, some words that aren't used anymore, and - probably the most difficult - that some words didn't have the same meaning as today. If you know these things and some Bavarian dialect then you can understand large part of the Nibelungenlied. >But Germans - you don't half come up with some strange ideas. ;) Don't we always do this? ;-) >Chester. I imagine you've heard of it, it's a big tourist attraction. :) The name sounds familiar, but I'd have to check a map to see where it lies... But I know that all towns with "chester" in the name were originally founded by Romans ("castra"). >>By then you'll be able to order "Zwo Maß Bier" ;-) >And by then I might be able to drink them. Maybe. I think I'd be going to >the toilet a lot, though. :)) Hehe, you have to exercise more ;-) BTW, in Erlangen we have the oldes beer fest in the world, much older than the Oktoberfest. It's called Bergkirchweih (although it's only on a hill) and we natives simply say "Berch". >I don't have a car over here, so it's my main form of transport... Sure, and all the strange Germans drive on the wrong side! ;-) >>Well, if you are in Nuernberg you shouldn't eat a pizza at Pizza Hut >>but the great "Nuernberger Bratwuerste"! >I've never heard of it! :o Really? You have to try it! >I'll try and visit it sometime. I've already been up to north Germany (I >went to Magdeburg to visit a longtime friend) and I intend to visit a lot of >Germany (and Europe!) while I'm over here... Italy is nice and has very good food. I'd just die for a good pizza or pasta! >So am I. What am I saying? No I'm not! ;) >At least about 3/4 of it is on-topic. :) Now we are 90% off topic... I guess if we want to continue these discussions we should do it via normal email or the others might get upset. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 15:10:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19136 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:10:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:10:45 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <001001bf8b76$6ea3e5e0$80ed06d5@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > belt. The difficult thing about German is that you can refer to any noun (or > object) in 3 ways - masculine, feminine or neutral. French has two ways and > I've figured out most of those. English has one - neutral. The same for > Welsh (my other language). But Germans - you don't half come up with some > strange ideas. ;) I actually don't understand the whole masculine/feminine thing (unless it pertains to actual sexes). Why attach a masculine/feminine label to *ANYTHING* (other than animals/people) at all? > Besides, what decent beer is brewed in America? The only famous one is > Budweiser - which I don't mind, but isn't particularly brilliant... Anything you've ever heard of is shit beer. Microbreweries don't often export. Let me say this - Our microbrew (read that, *LOCAL* breweries) section in the grocery store dwarfs that commercial crap. We have over *200* in the area alone! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 15:15:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19153 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:15:17 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Assembly - Nmemonics representing machine opcodes > >Assembler - The program that assembles the assembly and emits a file > >Please make a note of it. ;-) > Oops, sorry. In German it's "Assembler Programmierung" instead of > "assembly programming"... > BTW, the word is "mnemonics" ;-) I figured I spelled (not 'spelt') it wrong. > >> You have the > >> same with intra-page jumps, but it might occur on inter-page jumps > >Another nit - no hyphens are needed here. ;-) > So is it an error, or is it at least acceptable? I think it makes much > clearer which words form a compound. In an English class, it'd be marked as an error. Hyphens are not supposed to be used in *ANY* situation that a prefix is used (inter, pre, post, co, etc... are all prefixes). In fact, I don't think it's even allowed outside of breaking up words at the margins. It's also considered arrogant and snobby. So in direct answer to your question, it's wrong. Either separate the words or combine them. As an example, Interstate isn't stated as Inter-state. Also, coordinate is coordinate, not co-ordinate. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 15:20:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19180 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:20:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:20:26 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by synthcom.com id PAA19177 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >In the case of certain bands, for sure. Especially these all-male > groups. > >:)) > It depends. For German lyrics Herbert Grönemeyer is quite good and > Sting has good lyrics as well. > But I hear much jazz where you don't have much lyrics anyway... This has always puzzled me. Why do people put so much focus on lyrics? They'll ignore the aspects of musicianship because the "Lyrics are good". > The only older language apart from Latin I ever learnt is Middle High "learned". ;-) Past tense of learn. ;-) God, I love language discussions! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 16:44:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19439 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:44:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00a901bf8bb9$404900c0$91ba06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:18:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > So in direct answer to your question, it's wrong. Either separate the > words or combine them. As an example, Interstate isn't stated as > Inter-state. Also, coordinate is coordinate, not co-ordinate. Unless, of course, you're talking about co-ordinating a meeting and not a point (X, Y). :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 16:44:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19441 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:44:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00a701bf8bb9$3e8557c0$91ba06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:02:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I actually don't understand the whole masculine/feminine thing (unless it > pertains to actual sexes). Why attach a masculine/feminine label to > *ANYTHING* (other than animals/people) at all? I don't know. I've a feeling it's to confuse the English speaking people. ;) > > Besides, what decent beer is brewed in America? The only famous one is > > Budweiser - which I don't mind, but isn't particularly brilliant... > > Anything you've ever heard of is shit beer. Microbreweries don't often > export. Ah, that'd explain it. :) > Let me say this - Our microbrew (read that, *LOCAL* breweries) section in > the grocery store dwarfs that commercial crap. We have over *200* in the > area alone! Germany still beats you. Just about every type of Pils you've ever heard of comes from around here. And there's plenty more - as you could find at the Oktoberfest (famous Beer festival). It still amuses me how much the Germans like their beer. It's almost... inhuman! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 16:44:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19452 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:44:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00aa01bf8bb9$41126b40$91ba06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:21:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, >Why do people put so much focus on lyrics? They'll ignore the aspects of >musicianship because the "Lyrics are good". I actually find quite the opposite. Otherwise I can't explain why "boy bands" are so popular. It surely isn't for the lyrics. Or the music, either! I know what you're saying, I just don't find this all the time. I usually find the opposite where people listen to crap (read: majority of club music) music that doesn't have too many lyrics at all... >"learned". ;-) Past tense of learn. ;-) God, I love language discussions! Spell "Colour". ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 17:02:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19512 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:02:28 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <00a901bf8bb9$404900c0$91ba06d5@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > words or combine them. As an example, Interstate isn't stated as > > Inter-state. Also, coordinate is coordinate, not co-ordinate. > Unless, of course, you're talking about co-ordinating a meeting and not a > point (X, Y). :) Nope. Same word, different meaning. (like Record and Record) There's no hyphen. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 17:03:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19521 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:03:13 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <00a701bf8bb9$3e8557c0$91ba06d5@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Let me say this - Our microbrew (read that, *LOCAL* breweries) section in > > the grocery store dwarfs that commercial crap. We have over *200* in the > > area alone! > Germany still beats you. Just about every type of Pils you've ever heard of > comes from around here. And there's plenty more - as you could find at the > Oktoberfest (famous Beer festival). Let me be more specific. There are over 200 microbreweries in Portland alone. In Seattle and San Fransisco it's much, MUCH larger. Let's just say we have the same enthusiasm for beer as the Germans do, if not more! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 17:08:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19534 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:08:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:08:23 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf8bb9$41126b40$91ba06d5@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Why do people put so much focus on lyrics? They'll ignore the aspects of > >musicianship because the "Lyrics are good". > I actually find quite the opposite. Otherwise I can't explain why "boy > bands" are so popular. It surely isn't for the lyrics. Or the music, either! The "boy bands" are popular because they're "cute". They're assembled by "businessmen" who find 5 good looking dudes, because the girls will all go out and buy their albums, they'll sing about love and other thick crap like that, backed by studio musicians and lots and lots of money. Besides, that's all the record companies are feeding us. If we're not exposed to anything else, what do you expect? Someone's gotta like it, but even my 19 year old niece says that Top 40 is crap. Interestingly enough, did you know what happened when AMP (essentially MTV Europe which is ZILLIONS of times better than the MTV crap we have in the states) was going to be scheduled at 7PM (instead of the usual 2AM)? Several record companies threatened MTV with a massive lawsuit pulling their rights to air videos and use their music. They're very, very worried about the European music scene (which is far better than the garbage we have to tolerate) because the record companies can't control it. It'll be a great day when Sony/CBS go out of business because they can't compete with the independent label. And only then can we get some decent music played again. FWIW, I tend to listen to nothing but European tracks anyway. I can't stand what I've had to put up with here on the radio for the past 9 years. > I know what you're saying, I just don't find this all the time. I usually > find the opposite where people listen to crap (read: majority of club music) > music that doesn't have too many lyrics at all... There's a lot of music out there that's technically very good, but musically very poor. I'd much prefer this to "good lyrics". > >"learned". ;-) Past tense of learn. ;-) God, I love language discussions! > Spell "Colour". ;) Color. The u is completely useless! ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 20:39:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20107 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:39:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:13:33 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Neil is my nickname. Christopher is my first name, but there are too damn >many Chris's in the world. So I go by Neil. Interesting, I didn't know that... >NB Is cool with me! OK, then I'll use NB and NG in the future when I want to make clear which of you two I mean. >Kinda like refried beans! But they're less spicy, at least that's what happens with my refried chilli... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 20:39:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20117 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 05:12:45 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I actually don't understand the whole masculine/feminine thing (unless it >pertains to actual sexes). Why attach a masculine/feminine label to >*ANYTHING* (other than animals/people) at all? I think there's also a long answer to your question, but the short one is: history! It's hard to explain why the people came up with it, maybe anthropomorphism, who knows? You actually still have it in some parts of English, although not visable through the article. Eg. in English poetry the moon is always female and the sun always male, which is the exact parallel to Spanish "la luna" and "le sol" - please correct me Victor if I should be wrong. Funnily in German it's the other way round: "der Mond" (masculine) and "die Sonne" (feminine). And English is weird in this case as well: I always wonder why you talk about ships, cars, whatsoever as "she"? In German it's "das Schiff" and "das Auto" (neuter) because these are things. You could also ask why there are 7 cases in Russian, but you couldn't explain it. This is a case of "this is what we have and we have to work with it". It's all due to linguistic evolution which is hard to explain as well, but which is still at work, as I can notice fewer use of imperative and subjunctive in German for example. We only can estimate some of the language evolutions but not enough to reconstruct some kind of protolanguage so we are absolutely unable to tell how and why specific parts of a language were formed. >In an English class, it'd be marked as an error. Hyphens are not supposed >to be used in *ANY* situation that a prefix is used (inter, pre, post, co, >etc... are all prefixes). In fact, I don't think it's even allowed outside >of breaking up words at the margins. It's also considered arrogant and >snobby. Hmm, I think I have to study some English grammar again... >"learned". ;-) Past tense of learn. ;-) God, I love language discussions! Have you ever heard of "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language" - normally only referred as CGEL? There "learn" is listed as an irregular verb (class 1A if you're interested) and "learned" is marked as a regular *variant* of "learnt". Hmm, I just found out that the German equivalent "lernen" is a weak verb in Middle High German. I wonder if this means that "learnt" is just an analogy to another verb, and therefore a 'fake'? Where is someone if a decent knowledge of Gothic if you need one? ;-) I don't think that NG's knowledge of Welsh will be of much help here since Welsh should have Celtic rather than Germanic roots, right? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 20:39:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20127 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 05:24:18 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Compilation means aggregating groups of instructions/operations into >smaller groups of operations. We are optimizing the code somewhat, and >this makes compilation a correct term for what we're doing. You're probably right, but it still sounds as if a high-level (hyphen or not?) language was involved, which can be a bit confusing. >Perhaps "Dynamic translation" is a better term. Better than dynamic recompilation anyway, although dynatrans doesn't sound as good as dynarec ;-) >There's more to it than that, though. It's not just simple translation. >The argument can be made that we're translating C code into assembly as >well, and therefore it's a translation rather than a compilation. The joke is that the (rarely used) German term for compiler is "Uebersetzer", which simply means translator! >Interestingly enough, in theory my approach (with a self-referrential >recompile) can do exactly this. Of course it may not be able to in the >case of indirect jumps, but it should be possible. Even a static recompiler has the same problem with indirect jumps, which is why you still need a good runtime system. >But also remember that my code emitters adapt to the conditions. So it >really is dynamic. Of course, this is how it should be! >Static code generation is just a one time translation, and from there you >don't need the original anymore (in theory). That's the problem with static recompilation. I think the traditional use of the term is for generation target executables from source executables. But static could also mean that it's everything which isn't dynamic, and then a one time translation of the whole program would be static although no executable is generated, just because it surely cannot be called dynamic. Well, you could call it dynamic, but then dynamic means that the translation is done over and over again but not on demand, which IMO is the normal use of dynamic recompilation. I think either interpretation has a gap between the two terms. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 20:39:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20131 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:39:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:25:13 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Words just detract from the music anyway. ;-) For many songs this is true. But there are some good examples for songs which couldn't work without the lyrics... But I have to admit there is nothing as relaxing to play a good instrumental and just concentrate on the music. >This has always puzzled me. >Why do people put so much focus on lyrics? They'll ignore the aspects of >musicianship because the "Lyrics are good". This is certainly not true for me. First of all I wouldn't say that over 90% of todays music have good lyrics anyway, and I heard to much music where I couldn't understand the lyrics. When I buy a new jazz album I don't listen to it before I buy it, but I rather select a special album because I'm interested in the performance of one or more musicians on that album. Especially for jazz it's good to know some names because a few good musicians can let even the worst song sound exceptional. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 21:46:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20350 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:46:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 06:17:33 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >There are over 200 microbreweries in Portland alone. In Seattle and San >Fransisco it's much, MUCH larger. Let's just say we have the same >enthusiasm for beer as the Germans do, if not more! I think Erlangen once had about 40 breweries (and it was much smaller back then) because there were ideal cellars in one hill, which is the reason for us having the oldest beer festival in the world. But when the refrigerator was invented those cellars weren't needed anymore and most breweries closed. For a very long time we only had one but now we have two breweries. Bamberg has very many breweries and they have very special beer. Eg. two make so called "smoke beer", which isn't very common. And around Bamberg about every village has it's own brewery, and those villages are often so small (only one street and a dozen houses) that we simply call them "Kaff". Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 11 21:46:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20358 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:46:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 06:30:32 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The "boy bands" are popular because they're "cute". They're assembled by >"businessmen" who find 5 good looking dudes, because the girls will all go >out and buy their albums, they'll sing about love and other thick crap >like that, backed by studio musicians and lots and lots of money. Musicians? I guess they have just one keyboard and all they do for a new song is to press the standard beat button and key a few accords... From how it sounds I guess most don't use musicians with real instruments anymore but everything comes from the computer. Nothing against computer music, but why do they always have to immitate real instruments in such a bad way? The funny thing is that more and more drummers seem to adapt the computer rhythms and even that crap hi-hats sound - yuk! >They're very, very worried about the European music scene (which is far >better than the garbage we have to tolerate) because the record companies >can't control it. It'll be a great day when Sony/CBS go out of business >because they can't compete with the independent label. And only then can >we get some decent music played again. That's strange because every time when I turn on the radio (and I only do this in the car) I'm crowded with American rap (is this really music or just noise with stupid texts?) or some rock where all songs sound similar... >FWIW, I tend to listen to nothing but European tracks anyway. I can't >stand what I've had to put up with here on the radio for the past 9 years. I only listen to very few German records (NG if you know enough German you should listen to Willy Astor - from Munich - very funny), from America only jazz and a few soundtracks (I'm a great John Williams fan), and the rest is from the UK. >There's a lot of music out there that's technically very good, but >musically very poor. I'd much prefer this to "good lyrics". BTW, have you ever heard some Weather Report tracks, eg. Birdland? >Color. The u is completely useless! ;-) I think I already had this example: spell "doubt" and "subtle"! Greetings from William the Conquerer ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 01:44:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20757 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:44:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:44:54 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I actually don't understand the whole masculine/feminine thing (unless > >pertains to actual sexes). Why attach a masculine/feminine label to > >*ANYTHING* (other than animals/people) at all? > I think there's also a long answer to your question, but the short one > is: history! > It's hard to explain why the people came up with it, maybe > anthropomorphism, who knows? You actually still have it in some parts > of English, although not visable through the article. I can't even extrapolate a reason why, though. Sometimes I can see a connection, but in this case I'm just dumbfounded. There's no rhyme or reason to it. > Eg. in English poetry the moon is always female and the sun always > male, which is the exact parallel to Spanish "la luna" and "le sol" - It is? I didn't know that. The only "she" that I'm aware of is captains referring to their ships as "she", because it takes the place of the real thing. I've not heard the sun/moon thing you mentioned. > And English is weird in this case as well: I always wonder why you talk > about ships, cars, whatsoever as "she"? In German it's "das Schiff" and > "das Auto" (neuter) because these are things. For cars there's two reasons: One, because men most often treat their cars better than their women, and two, because when the car gets bitchy, it gets bitchy like a woman! > You could also ask why there are 7 cases in Russian, but you couldn't > explain it. Cases in terms of...? You mean 7 "sexes"? Or do you mean literally the word "Case"? > We only can estimate some of the language evolutions but not enough to > reconstruct some kind of protolanguage so we are absolutely unable to > tell how and why specific parts of a language were formed. Oddly, I can read English from the 800s and understand it. It's more Viking English than anything else. Lots of extra senseless words. > >etc... are all prefixes). In fact, I don't think it's even allowed > >of breaking up words at the margins. It's also considered arrogant and > Hmm, I think I have to study some English grammar again... I think a better word would be "patronizing". Instead of spelling out a word or a name, like Sahahlee, it's posted as Sa-hah-lee (name of a golf course). It's like "look dumb shit, this is how you say it.". Coordinate, reanimate, etc... are all words that are just using standard English prefixes. Disassemble is all one word - you wouldn't say dis-assemble, would you? There are many prefixes/suffixes that are used throughout the language. The English language (mostly US English which has just as many other problems with it) is one of my most studied areas. It chaps my ass to hear people say "myself" instead of "me". As in, "This is a picture of Bob, Dave, and myself." Completely, grammatically wrong. "Myself" should *NEVER* be used in the place of "me". There are zillions (my other favorite word) of examples of this. > >"learned". ;-) Past tense of learn. ;-) God, I love language > discussions! > Have you ever heard of "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English > Language" - normally only referred as CGEL? There "learn" is listed as > an irregular verb (class 1A if you're interested) and "learned" is > marked as a regular *variant* of "learnt". Heard of - haven't seen. Most of my study is Troyka's "Guide to the English Language" and it has been shelved for years now. FWIW, "Learnt" isn't in my dictionary at all. Same deal with "burnt". -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 01:45:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20769 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:45:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:45:35 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Perhaps "Dynamic translation" is a better term. > Better than dynamic recompilation anyway, although dynatrans doesn't > sound as good as dynarec ;-) How about "dynamic reassmbly"? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 01:48:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20785 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:48:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:48:26 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Words just detract from the music anyway. ;-) > For many songs this is true. But there are some good examples for songs > which couldn't work without the lyrics... Then they aren't good songs. Music without lyrics is still music. Lyrics without music is just poetry or a bunch of words. > But I have to admit there is nothing as relaxing to play a good > instrumental and just concentrate on the music. Words should be secondary. Without the music, the words wouldn't be music. > When I buy a new jazz album I don't listen to it before I buy it, but I > rather select a special album because I'm interested in the performance > of one or more musicians on that album. Especially for jazz it's good > to know some names because a few good musicians can let even the worst > song sound exceptional. Yup. It's amazing when a band gets together and everyone knows exactly where their place is in the group. Yes is an extremely good example of this. If you listen to "Talk" or their latest album (sans Trevor Rabin unfortunately), everyone is placed *EXACTLY* where they should be. And musically it's stunning. I've learned to completely shut off lyrics. I hear the voice as an instrument - not as words or a thought. As long as it complements the music, I have no problem with it at all! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 01:57:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20800 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:57:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:57:12 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >The "boy bands" are popular because they're "cute". They're assembled > >"businessmen" who find 5 good looking dudes, because the girls will > >out and buy their albums, they'll sing about love and other thick crap > >like that, backed by studio musicians and lots and lots of money. > Musicians? I guess they have just one keyboard and all they do for a > new song is to press the standard beat button and key a few accords... They're studio musician/producer backed. It's assembly line crap. > From how it sounds I guess most don't use musicians with real > instruments anymore but everything comes from the computer. Computers/synths are real instruments, too. Or do you mean acoustic? I'll warn you - Don't go down the "computers/synths aren't real instruments" path with me. ;-) Everyone said that about the piano and the electric guitar, too, but we seem to accept them as they are today with no problems. I really don't know what everyone's fear is of synthesizers. Ignorance is all I can gather. If anything, well done synth music is far more intellectually stimulating than any orchestra could produce. And of course, there's a lot of crappy synth music out there. I'll wholeheartedly agree with that. But there are just as many bad guitar bands as well. > Nothing > against computer music, but why do they always have to immitate real > instruments in such a bad way? *SMILE*. You wouldn't know when you've heard a synth vs. the real thing. You only know when you hear a bad one. ;-) It's all in the application. If jimmy joe bob hits patch R-7 on his Kurzweil 2500 and plays it like a violin, he thinks it's kewl and puts it on his record. So instead of massaging it into a sound that fits the music, he uses the built in crap. I've heard piano samples that are so good that it fools concert level pianists. Something can be extremely well done, but most often people are too lazy to go do it right. I for one use the synth as its own instrument. I played enough acoustic instruments and they're too limiting. With a synth I can do damn near anything and create sounds that are so strange and bizarre that it opens up new avenues. > The funny thing is that more and more drummers seem to adapt the > computer rhythms and even that crap hi-hats sound - yuk! It depends. A Roland TR-909, made about 19 years ago, is used by almost every dance track out there. And for a bass sound and keeping things moving in a dance environment, there is no substitute. But I'd never use a 909 in something more acoustic. Too cheesy sounding. You've just got to know when to apply it. > That's strange because every time when I turn on the radio (and I only > do this in the car) I'm crowded with American rap (is this really music > or just noise with stupid texts?) or some rock where all songs sound > similar... Yeah. We hear that here as well. It's garbage. I guess I've got to be an angry black guy who grew up in the ghetto to understand rap. Same deal with all the copyrock bands. > >There's a lot of music out there that's technically very good, but > >musically very poor. I'd much prefer this to "good lyrics". > BTW, have you ever heard some Weather Report tracks, eg. Birdland? Nope. > >Color. The u is completely useless! ;-) > I think I already had this example: spell "doubt" and "subtle"! > Greetings from William the Conquerer ;-) Yeah. Useless there, too. "Dout" and "suttle" are much, much better spellings. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 04:48:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21217 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:48:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006501bf8c1e$5e7819e0$30be06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:45:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Unless, of course, you're talking about co-ordinating a meeting and not a > > point (X, Y). :) > > Nope. Same word, different meaning. (like Record and Record) There's no > hyphen. There's a distinction made in the dictionary I have (Rogers, 1997). Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 04:48:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21218 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:48:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006701bf8c1e$603d4980$30be06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:53:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I actually find quite the opposite. Otherwise I can't explain why "boy > > bands" are so popular. It surely isn't for the lyrics. Or the music, either! > > The "boy bands" are popular because they're "cute". They're assembled by > "businessmen" who find 5 good looking dudes, because the girls will all go > out and buy their albums, they'll sing about love and other thick crap > like that, backed by studio musicians and lots and lots of money. Of course. I was just trying to give girls more credit, but I can't. :-/ > Besides, that's all the record companies are feeding us. If we're not > exposed to anything else, what do you expect? Someone's gotta like it, but > even my 19 year old niece says that Top 40 is crap. And I don't like it either. :) > They're very, very worried about the European music scene (which is far > better than the garbage we have to tolerate) because the record companies > can't control it. It'll be a great day when Sony/CBS go out of business > because they can't compete with the independent label. And only then can > we get some decent music played again. AFAIK, the popular types of music in the US at the moment are Country, Rock and Rap. That's about it. If I'm right, I completely understand why you don't like the music over there. Some may be quite good, it's just the rest of it... :-/ > FWIW, I tend to listen to nothing but European tracks anyway. I can't > stand what I've had to put up with here on the radio for the past 9 years. Really? Like who? > > Spell "Colour". ;) > > Color. The u is completely useless! ;-) There is a difference to the way a British person and an American person pronounces the word too. You actually say it as Col-Or and we say it as Col-Er. The "ou" sound comes from French. That may be why we have different spellings. But we've got it right! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 04:48:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21239 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:48:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006601bf8c1e$5f7b8020$30be06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:48:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Germany still beats you. Just about every type of Pils you've ever heard of > > comes from around here. And there's plenty more - as you could find at the > > Oktoberfest (famous Beer festival). > > Let me be more specific. > > There are over 200 microbreweries in Portland alone. In Seattle and San > Fransisco it's much, MUCH larger. Let's just say we have the same > enthusiasm for beer as the Germans do, if not more! I'll have to try some at some point, then! :) You've just got to arrange your year around drinking different types of beer. Once you've done that, then you share the same enthusiasm with the Germans for beer. Before I came over here, I didn't realise just how much they like beer. It's amazing! And I'm not a big beer drinker at home - I'll drink it, but most isn't particularly nice - but here it's really nice. Whereas normally I'd have drank Cider, I now don't mind. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 04:48:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21244 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006a01bf8c1e$62906140$30be06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:09:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Oddly, I can read English from the 800s and understand it. It's more > Viking English than anything else. Lots of extra senseless words. Very Norse - and also very Germanic, too! > The English language (mostly US English which has just as many other > problems with it) is one of my most studied areas. It chaps my ass to hear > people say "myself" instead of "me". As in, "This is a picture of Bob, > Dave, and myself." Completely, grammatically wrong. "Myself" should > *NEVER* be used in the place of "me". Agreed. > There are zillions (my other favorite word) of examples of this. Exactly how many zeros are in 1 zillion? :) > FWIW, "Learnt" isn't in my dictionary at all. Same deal with "burnt". But it's in mine! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 04:48:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21245 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006901bf8c1e$61c6f6c0$30be06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:06:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >The "boy bands" are popular because they're "cute". They're assembled > > by "businessmen" who find 5 good looking dudes, because the girls will > > all go out and buy their albums, they'll sing about love and other thick crap > >like that, backed by studio musicians and lots and lots of money. > > Musicians? I guess they have just one keyboard and all they do for a > new song is to press the standard beat button and key a few accords... > From how it sounds I guess most don't use musicians with real > instruments anymore but everything comes from the computer. Nothing > against computer music, but why do they always have to immitate real > instruments in such a bad way? In actual fact, I don't know of a boy band that can play instruments. Which makes it ironic that they're a boy "band" because the word "band" implies that there are instruments involved - the word "group" should be used for a group of singers. If they can even sing and their voices aren't computer "enhanced" so that they actually hit the right notes... Ala some of the "Spice Girls" for instance. > That's strange because every time when I turn on the radio (and I only > do this in the car) I'm crowded with American rap (is this really music > or just noise with stupid texts?) or some rock where all songs sound > similar... We get a lot of either American or Canadian music. Some of it is quite good, I won't deny that. But most isn't. At least in Britain we have quite a lot of variety and quite a few good bands. We still have crap music, it's just not to the same high ratio. In Britain, though, we don't get much European music - other than in the club scene where the biggest people are from Germany. > I only listen to very few German records (NG if you know enough German > you should listen to Willy Astor - from Munich - very funny), from > America only jazz and a few soundtracks (I'm a great John Williams > fan), and the rest is from the UK. I'll try and get something of Willy Astor. Willy, eh? A very... English, yet French, name. William being French and Willy being the English term for it. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 04:48:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21249 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:48:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006b01bf8c1e$634902e0$30be06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:10:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Better than dynamic recompilation anyway, although dynatrans doesn't > > sound as good as dynarec ;-) > > How about "dynamic reassmbly"? I like that term. Especially because when you shorten it, it becomes "dynasm" which sounds so much better than "dynarec". Yes, let's use that term from now on. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 04:48:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21262 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:48:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006c01bf8c1e$64540a40$30be06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:16:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I'll warn you - Don't go down the "computers/synths aren't real > instruments" path with me. ;-) Everyone said that about the piano and the > electric guitar, too, but we seem to accept them as they are today with no > problems. I really don't know what everyone's fear is of synthesizers. > Ignorance is all I can gather. After all, anything that can create several different tones could be called instrumental. Even a *voice* is an instrument! > *SMILE*. You wouldn't know when you've heard a synth vs. the real thing. > You only know when you hear a bad one. ;-) I bet I would when a violin is involved. I've heard some really nice synths - like the flagship Yamaha one. It still can't produce a realistic violin sound. At least: I can tell the difference. > I've heard piano samples that are so good that it fools concert level > pianists. Something can be extremely well done, but most often people are > too lazy to go do it right. I agree, there are some really good piano samples that you just can't tell the difference. But there are some instruments that can't be reproduced too well at the moment. The trumpet is another example - I can usually tell the difference too! > I for one use the synth as its own instrument. I played enough acoustic > instruments and they're too limiting. With a synth I can do damn near > anything and create sounds that are so strange and bizarre that it opens > up new avenues. Neil, I can't get ahold of any of your albums. Know where I can get one? I think it could be interesting to listen to. > But I'd never use a 909 in something more acoustic. Too cheesy sounding. > You've just got to know when to apply it. That's the difference between a musician and a wannabe. :) > Yeah. We hear that here as well. It's garbage. I guess I've got to be an > angry black guy who grew up in the ghetto to understand rap. Same deal > with all the copyrock bands. Agreed. Crap. Well, some modern rock is okay, but if I'm going for rock, I prefer it from the 60's-70's and early 80's periods. > > >Color. The u is completely useless! ;-) > > I think I already had this example: spell "doubt" and "subtle"! > > Greetings from William the Conquerer ;-) > > Yeah. Useless there, too. "Dout" and "suttle" are much, much better > spellings. Do you use those? Because if you do, I've *never* heard of that before! :o You're right - technically they are better spellings. But they look so terrible to me at the moment! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 04:48:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21227 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:48:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006801bf8c1e$60fd8c40$30be06d5@computer> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:00:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > anthropomorphism, who knows? You actually still have it in some parts > of English, although not visable through the article. > Eg. in English poetry the moon is always female and the sun always > male, which is the exact parallel to Spanish "la luna" and "le sol" - > please correct me Victor if I should be wrong. It is? I've never heard that before. We always say "The moon" and "The Sun". I don't think I've ever seen it talked around as a sex. Oh... maybe in really old texts, when I think about it... > And English is weird in this case as well: I always wonder why you talk > about ships, cars, whatsoever as "she"? In German it's "das Schiff" and > "das Auto" (neuter) because these are things. In the case of ships, that's because ships always used to have the name of a woman. So the men on the boat thought about the ship as being feminine. And I'm accepting NB's explanation for the car. :) > Have you ever heard of "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English > Language" - normally only referred as CGEL? There "learn" is listed as > an irregular verb (class 1A if you're interested) and "learned" is > marked as a regular *variant* of "learnt". I was being told by my German friends just how much they hate irregular verbs. Because I've grown up using them, I see no problem. In fact, if you even told me to give you an example of a regular and irregular verb, I don't think I could! > Where is someone if a decent knowledge of Gothic if you need one? ;-) Hiding. It's sunny outside. ;)) > I don't think that NG's knowledge of Welsh will be of much help here > since Welsh should have Celtic rather than Germanic roots, right? Yep. In fact, Welsh is the oldest known language in Europe - it was used even before Latin. Welsh is certainly Celtic, but it has changed along the times to add new words. But the worst thing for me is in German where you have words with a "ll" in - like "Gestellt". In Welsh, "ll" is actually a letter of the alphabet and has it's own distinct sound - something like "kl" or the "cl" in "clan". I just have to remember to pronounce it the English way - which is much closer to the German term. English also has words with a "ll", but they're usually at the end of a word, so I don't have that problem. Besides, English is my first language, so I don't have that problem. Full stop. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 15:33:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22641 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:33:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:33:42 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <006701bf8c1e$603d4980$30be06d5@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > FWIW, I tend to listen to nothing but European tracks anyway. I can't > > stand what I've had to put up with here on the radio for the past 9 years. > Really? Like who? What I can't stand or what I like? > > > Spell "Colour". ;) > > Color. The u is completely useless! ;-) > There is a difference to the way a British person and an American person > pronounces the word too. You actually say it as Col-Or and we say it as > Col-Er. The "ou" sound comes from French. That may be why we have different > spellings. It's pronounced col-er. But how you get an "er" out of "our" is beyond me. But then again, British English has a far worse problem of taking words from other languages, not altering their spelling and changing the way they're pronounced. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 15:38:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22658 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:38:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:38:51 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: <006c01bf8c1e$64540a40$30be06d5@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > electric guitar, too, but we seem to accept them as they are today with no > > problems. I really don't know what everyone's fear is of synthesizers. > > Ignorance is all I can gather. > After all, anything that can create several different tones could be called > instrumental. Even a *voice* is an instrument! Absolutely! Even things that can create only one tone are instruments. But my point is that what the voice says should have no bearing on the musicality. > > *SMILE*. You wouldn't know when you've heard a synth vs. the real thing. > > You only know when you hear a bad one. ;-) > I bet I would when a violin is involved. I've heard some really nice > synths - like the flagship Yamaha one. It still can't produce a realistic > violin sound. At least: I can tell the difference. You can tell a difference in that instance. Violins are infinitely expressive instruments and it's tough to mimic things like that. But done correctly, you can't tell a difference. It's not often done correctly. It's certainly not the technology that's the problem. It's the effort/quality of work put into it by the programmer in the first place. But more to the point, I don't see why anyone would want to. Synths are instruments in and of themselves. > the difference. But there are some instruments that can't be reproduced too > well at the moment. The trumpet is another example - I can usually tell the > difference too! No, they can be reproduced quite well. It's just rare that they're actually done well. > > instruments and they're too limiting. With a synth I can do damn near > > anything and create sounds that are so strange and bizarre that it opens > > up new avenues. > Neil, I can't get ahold of any of your albums. Know where I can get one? I > think it could be interesting to listen to. > > But I'd never use a 909 in something more acoustic. Too cheesy sounding. > > You've just got to know when to apply it. > That's the difference between a musician and a wannabe. :) Or a "DJ". I have a saying: DJ's are to music as security guards are to law enforcement. Totally true. ;-) > > angry black guy who grew up in the ghetto to understand rap. Same deal > > with all the copyrock bands. > Agreed. Crap. Well, some modern rock is okay, but if I'm going for rock, I > prefer it from the 60's-70's and early 80's periods. Yeah. Modern rock is quite scarce in terms of quality. > > > Greetings from William the Conquerer ;-) > > Yeah. Useless there, too. "Dout" and "suttle" are much, much better > > spellings. > Do you use those? Because if you do, I've *never* heard of that before! :o No, no, no no.... I'm just saying they'd be better spellings than what we've got currently. > You're right - technically they are better spellings. But they look so > terrible to me at the moment! :o Yeah. I read "Dout" as Data Out, and a "suttle" as "scuttle". ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 19:44:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23276 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:44:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:30:22 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I can't even extrapolate a reason why, though. Sometimes I can see a >connection, but in this case I'm just dumbfounded. There's no rhyme or >reason to it. In many cases the grammatical gender corresponds with the sex of the 'object' referred to, but it's a bit confusing when it doesn't. >It is? I didn't know that. I'm not sure when I noticed that, but it's a known fact that the moon in English poetry is always female. I'm not sure if this is due to the Germanic roots of English or more an influence of French. >The only "she" that I'm aware of is captains >referring to their ships as "she", because it takes the place of the real >thing. According to my information even countries are referred to as "she"... >For cars there's two reasons: One, because men most often treat their cars >better than their women, and two, because when the car gets bitchy, it >gets bitchy like a woman! Nice explanation ;-) >Cases in terms of...? You mean 7 "sexes"? Or do you mean literally the >word "Case"? Nope, the term for grammatical sex is gender. What I mean is: nominative, accusative, dative, genitive. This is what we have, and in Latin there are also vocative and ablative. I don't know Russian, but I know that they have 7 cases. You have to be careful with the term case though, since Fillmore invented that case grammar which is about the roles of words in a sentence, like agentive, objective, or instrumental. I guess he didn't know that other languages already have the term for something different, or he simply didn't care. To distinguish the two terms the latter is often called "deep case" nowadays. >Oddly, I can read English from the 800s and understand it. It's more >Viking English than anything else. Lots of extra senseless words. Then you must be pretty good at linguistics! I might be able to understand some Middle English and I really learned Middle High German, but I certainly couldn't understand Old English or Old German with a good dictionary and some knowledge about the grammar. You have to be aware of the fact that you might think you know what a word means but many meanings have changed over the period of a few hundred years. I think the main problem with these old languages isn't that you have many unknown words, but that you have many words which just look like those we use today but they can have a totally different meaning. Since you don't want to look up every word you have to develop some intuition when a word could mean something different than you think at the first glance. Some words have narrow meaning today, eg. Middle High German "hochgezit" looks like todays "Hochzeit" (wedding) but it refers to any celebration. Shakespeare still uses "marry" as a synonym to "lucky", but today you almost only have it in "merry christmas". Or "gast" (today still spelled that way) did not only mean "guest" but also foreigner or even enemy! "bispel" doesn't have the same meaning as "Beispiel" (example) but means "tale". An often error fo beginner is to translate "frouwe" with "Frau" (woman) and "wip" with "Weib" (toady a flame word for women), because the men always had to find better words for the other sex and the old got less worthy. Therfore "wip" simply meant "woman" and "frouwe" has more the meaning of lady. Sometimes it's hard to understand what the author meant because they had different concepts. Eg. the whole class was very confused when the text said that "a knight was placed behind himself". The explanation is rather simple. At that time people saw the knight and his horse as one unit, so the knight just got kicked from the horse. But you have to know such things to understand certain texts. Sorry, for the rather long history lesson, but I think you get the picture that it's not that easy to understand older texts as it might seem. >I think a better word would be "patronizing". Instead of spelling out a >word or a name, like Sahahlee, it's posted as Sa-hah-lee (name of a golf >course). It's like "look dumb shit, this is how you say it.". Coordinate, >reanimate, etc... are all words that are just using standard English >prefixes. Disassemble is all one word - you wouldn't say dis-assemble, >would you? There are many prefixes/suffixes that are used throughout the >language. I'll check that with "Practical English Usage", but I think you're right about the prefixes. >There are zillions (my other favorite word) of examples of this. I told you at least a zillion times that you shall not exagerate ;-) >Heard of - haven't seen. Most of my study is Troyka's "Guide to the >English Language" and it has been shelved for years now. I think I heard of that before. The problem about most American linguistics is that these are largely influenced by Noam Chomsky, whose Government and Binding or X-Bar theories might work more or less good for English but are useless for languages like German. >FWIW, "Learnt" isn't in my dictionary at all. Same deal with "burnt". What about dreamt, smelt or slept? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 19:45:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23288 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:45:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:19:54 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Then they aren't good songs. Music without lyrics is still music. Lyrics >without music is just poetry or a bunch of words. Just take the song "Angel Eyes" from the soundtrack of "Leaving Las Vegas", where the voice acts like an instrument and there's only the addition of very minimallistic bass and piano. If you drop the vocals there isn't much left. Or take Al Yankovic, where only the lyrics count since the music is stolen anyway. >Words should be secondary. Without the music, the words wouldn't be music. Absolutely true for operas. Wagner just sounds great without words, although I don't like operas. >Yup. It's amazing when a band gets together and everyone knows exactly >where their place is in the group. Sometimes it's almost a mystery, eg. when you have Jeff Beal (trumpet/ fluegelhorn) and Steve Tavaglione (saxophone) playing together you think they must have some kind of mental connection! >I've learned to completely shut off lyrics. I hear the voice as an >instrument - not as words or a thought. As long as it complements the >music, I have no problem with it at all! Hey, you could even listen to German music then ;-) [boy groups] >They're studio musician/producer backed. It's assembly line crap. Really? To me it sounds as if there are no musicians at all. >Computers/synths are real instruments, too. Or do you mean acoustic? First of all with so much crap computer music around I indeed prefer more and more acoustic music. Synths are instruments as well of course, bet less and less people use it that way. They just press one button to get one of the installed beats (no one seems to notice that all those songs have the same beat) and the rest of the song is made by copy-and -paste at a computer. >I'll warn you - Don't go down the "computers/synths aren't real >instruments" path with me. ;-) Don't get me wrong, I like good computer music. I recently bought the soundtrack of Beverly Hills Cop, just because I always liked the song Axel F! Some works of Vangelis are simply great and I absolutle adore John Carpenter's cool intro to Escape from New York. I think the difference between the good and the bad computer music is that the good one uses the computers to create unique sound and they still have a groove, which the bad totally lacks! >If anything, well done synth music is far more intellectually stimulating >than any orchestra could produce. Both have their unique purpose. I've heard so many worse synth adaptations of Bolero or the Star Wars theme that I really count it. But a good arranger knows when the limit of even a whole symphony orchestra is reached and synths have to be introduced. >And of course, there's a lot of crappy >synth music out there. I'll wholeheartedly agree with that. But there are >just as many bad guitar bands as well. I guess you mean that there are too many bad guitar bands! ;-) >*SMILE*. You wouldn't know when you've heard a synth vs. the real thing. >You only know when you hear a bad one. ;-) It depends on the quality of the samples that are used. As I told you two of my friends make synth music as well, and on a few songs they used samples from a CD with Peter Erskine. Not only he is a good drummer but on that CD he plays a Yamaha Maple Custom and a brass snare, it simply sounds cool. But most seem to use the crap built in percussion... What I never heard so far is a computer saxophone where you couldn't tell that it's not the real thing! >It's all in the application. If jimmy joe bob hits patch R-7 on his >Kurzweil 2500 and plays it like a violin, he thinks it's kewl and puts it >on his record. So instead of massaging it into a sound that fits the >music, he uses the built in crap. Well, about the same I said above ;-) >I've heard piano samples that are so good that it fools concert level >pianists. Yeah, my friend has a Technics synth with absolutely great piano and organ sounds. >Something can be extremely well done, but most often people are >too lazy to go do it right. Probably. >I for one use the synth as its own instrument. I played enough acoustic >instruments and they're too limiting. With a synth I can do damn near >anything and create sounds that are so strange and bizarre that it opens >up new avenues. Sure, but everthing can be programmed so you don't need that much technical skill anymore, which leads to more and more laymen producing crap music and there seem to be enough stupids who buy it :-( >It depends. A Roland TR-909, made about 19 years ago, is used by almost >every dance track out there. And for a bass sound and keeping things >moving in a dance environment, there is no substitute. I think Phil Collins used it on his first solo album... We could almost bet if the Yamaha Recording Custom drums weren't even used more often... >But I'd never use a 909 in something more acoustic. Too cheesy sounding. >You've just got to know when to apply it. Indeed, you have to know when it's the right time to use a certain instrument and not simply say "OK, we have it so let's just use it"... >Yeah. We hear that here as well. It's garbage. I guess I've got to be an >angry black guy who grew up in the ghetto to understand rap. Yeah, the music is simplistic, the vocals are primitive, and I even don't understand the words... >Same deal with all the copyrock bands. Sometimes we have some programmes on TV where they play all the dusty "great rock songs". The you notice that there a two or three really good songs and the rest all sound like the same song! [Wheater Report] >Nope. The group was founded by Joe Zawinul (keyboarder from Vienna) and Wayne Shorter (sax). Both played for Miles Davis and Joe convinced Miles to use electrical instruments with jazz and therefore could be called the inventor of fusion. Weather Report have a very extraordinary sound, you might find it interesting. If you want to try it you probably should listen to the live album "8:30". Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 19:45:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23300 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:45:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:12:41 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> How about "dynamic reassmbly"? >I like that term. Especially because when you shorten it, it becomes >"dynasm" which sounds so much better than "dynarec". Yes, let's use that >term from now on. :) Yeah, why not? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 19:45:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23312 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:45:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:30:32 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It is? I've never heard that before. We always say "The moon" and "The Sun". >I don't think I've ever seen it talked around as a sex. Oh... maybe in >really old texts, when I think about it... I think it's still used today but I have to admit that I don't know much modern English poetry. >I was being told by my German friends just how much they hate irregular >verbs. Because I've grown up using them, I see no problem. Just wait till you learn more German and you'll see that we don't have less irregular verbs. Your friends are just as used to these as you are to the English ones! >In fact, if you >even told me to give you an example of a regular and irregular verb, I don't >think I could! Eg. think, thought, thought, instead of think, thinked, thinked. Or in German: gang, ging, gegangen - which is go, went, gone in English. >Yep. In fact, Welsh is the oldest known language in Europe - it was used >even before Latin. Welsh is certainly Celtic, but it has changed along the >times to add new words. But the worst thing for me is in German where you >have words with a "ll" in - like "Gestellt". In Welsh, "ll" is actually a >letter of the alphabet and has it's own distinct sound - something like "kl" >or the "cl" in "clan". So "Lloyd" would be pronounced as /kloyd/? >I just have to remember to pronounce it the English >way - which is much closer to the German term. English also has words with a >"ll", but they're usually at the end of a word, so I don't have that >problem. The consonants are the same, although we have to additonal ones which also exist in Scots, eg. in their pronunciation of "loch" and "night". >> Oddly, I can read English from the 800s and understand it. It's more >> Viking English than anything else. Lots of extra senseless words. >Very Norse - and also very Germanic, too! That's doubled because Old Norse is a Germanic language too ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 19:59:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23350 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:59:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:59:44 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I can't even extrapolate a reason why, though. Sometimes I can see a > >connection, but in this case I'm just dumbfounded. There's no rhyme or > In many cases the grammatical gender corresponds with the sex of the > 'object' referred to, but it's a bit confusing when it doesn't. So a banana would be male, and a gas nozzle female? ;-) > >The only "she" that I'm aware of is captains > >referring to their ships as "she", because it takes the place of the > >thing. > According to my information even countries are referred to as "she"... You've got me there, but you're right. I have no idea why. > >Oddly, I can read English from the 800s and understand it. It's more > >Viking English than anything else. Lots of extra senseless words. > Then you must be pretty good at linguistics! I might be able to > understand some Middle English and I really learned Middle High German, > but I certainly couldn't understand Old English or Old German with a > good dictionary and some knowledge about the grammar. I didn't find it all that odd. It seemed wordy and "Fancy" for lack of better terms to describe it, but it wasn't that far off what we speak/use today. > You have to be aware of the fact that you might think you know what a > word means but many meanings have changed over the period of a few > hundred years. Oh yeah. I couldn't understand all of it because it had some slang from that era. > >FWIW, "Learnt" isn't in my dictionary at all. Same deal with "burnt". > What about dreamt, smelt or slept? "dreamt" isn't (dreamed is the word used), "smelt" isn't either (smelled), and slept is, oddly (sleeped just sounds weird). A good way to look at it, "ed" on the end of a lot of latin words puts it in the past tense. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 20:11:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23412 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:11:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:11:30 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Then they aren't good songs. Music without lyrics is still music. > >without music is just poetry or a bunch of words. > Just take the song "Angel Eyes" from the soundtrack of "Leaving Las > Vegas", where the voice acts like an instrument and there's only the > addition of very minimallistic bass and piano. If you drop the vocals > there isn't much left. I didn't say drop the vocals. I said drop the lyrics. ;-) There's a *HUGE* difference. > Or take Al Yankovic, where only the lyrics count since the music is > stolen anyway. Emulated, but not stolen. He's a man of musical genius. Being able to play the notes of another song is one thing, but being able to emulate the subtle (hehehehe) nuances of other bands is entirely something else. > Absolutely true for operas. Wagner just sounds great without words, > although I don't like operas. Me either. Screaming in a foreign language is somehow supposed to be sophisticated? Most operas are just annoying. > >Yup. It's amazing when a band gets together and everyone knows exactly > >where their place is in the group. > Sometimes it's almost a mystery, eg. when you have Jeff Beal (trumpet/ > fluegelhorn) and Steve Tavaglione (saxophone) playing together you > think they must have some kind of mental connection! Those two instruments are near the bottom of my list anyway. ;-) > >I've learned to completely shut off lyrics. I hear the voice as an > >instrument - not as words or a thought. As long as it complements the > >music, I have no problem with it at all! > Hey, you could even listen to German music then ;-) I wouldn't understand any of it. German, when spoken, to me sounds really amusing. I don't know why, either! > >They're studio musician/producer backed. It's assembly line crap. > Really? To me it sounds as if there are no musicians at all. Hey, I'm using the term very loosely. ;-) > >Computers/synths are real instruments, too. Or do you mean acoustic? > First of all with so much crap computer music around I indeed prefer > more and more acoustic music. There is more and more acoustic crap here - moreso than I want to hear. There's only so much a drum/bass/guitar/vocalist can do before it becomes stale. It was stale when it started (grunge). > Synths are instruments as well of course, > bet less and less people use it that way. You must be getting only a fraction of what's going on. I think I'd have to hear what you're subjected to before being able to understand your point of view. > They just press one button to > get one of the installed beats (no one seems to notice that all those > songs have the same beat) and the rest of the song is made by copy-and > -paste at a computer. I hate to tell you this, but synths don't work that way. Well, they do if you buy one at K-Mart or some other $50 POS. They don't come with preprogrammed rhythms. > Don't get me wrong, I like good computer music. I recently bought the > soundtrack of Beverly Hills Cop, just because I always liked the song > Axel F! That's not good synth music. IT's cheesy, top 40ized crap. Harold Faltermeyer was not known as a "good musician" or synth expert of any sort. > I think the difference between the good and the bad computer music is > that the good one uses the computers to create unique sound and they > still have a groove, which the bad totally lacks! Agreed. But it's all in the application. > But a good arranger knows when the limit of even a whole symphony > orchestra is reached and synths have to be introduced. Some things call for a symphony. But in a lot of cases, at least throughout movies, filler music is almost all synths. > >And of course, there's a lot of crappy > >synth music out there. I'll wholeheartedly agree with that. But there > >just as many bad guitar bands as well. > I guess you mean that there are too many bad guitar bands! ;-) Yes. > >*SMILE*. You wouldn't know when you've heard a synth vs. the real > >You only know when you hear a bad one. ;-) > It depends on the quality of the samples that are used. As I told you > two of my friends make synth music as well, and on a few songs they So then the point being is that the medium is not the problem, but the implementation. > What I never heard so far is a computer saxophone where you couldn't > tell that it's not the real thing! If it was something that wasn't the real thing and you couldn't detect it, how would you know? ;-) > >I've heard piano samples that are so good that it fools concert level > >pianists. > Yeah, my friend has a Technics synth with absolutely great piano and > organ sounds. Really? I've found the Technics boards to be kinda pasty. The Roland series are phoenomenal, however. > >Something can be extremely well done, but most often people are > >too lazy to go do it right. > Probably. Definitely. > Sure, but everthing can be programmed so you don't need that much > technical skill anymore, Wrong. You still have to know musical construction. Beats by themselves don't do anything unless you have a tune to go with it. You still have to write the tune. > >It depends. A Roland TR-909, made about 19 years ago, is used by > >every dance track out there. And for a bass sound and keeping things > >moving in a dance environment, there is no substitute. > I think Phil Collins used it on his first solo album... Yes, on "No Jacket Required". It was the absolute worst percussion I had ever heard on an album. He literally programmed in two measures and repeated them for the whole song. Go back and listen to it if you don't believe me. ;-) > >Yeah. We hear that here as well. It's garbage. I guess I've got to be > >angry black guy who grew up in the ghetto to understand rap. > Yeah, the music is simplistic, the vocals are primitive, and I even > don't understand the words... I never heard the terms "pop a cap" or "smoke a blunt" before I heard some rap. ;-) > >Same deal with all the copyrock bands. > Sometimes we have some programmes on TV where they play all the dusty > "great rock songs". The you notice that there a two or three really > good songs and the rest all sound like the same song! You mean like everything in the 50's? ') -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 20:14:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23432 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:14:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:58:55 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Absolutely! Even things that can create only one tone are instruments. But >my point is that what the voice says should have no bearing on the >musicality. I have to admit that the text shouldn't affect the musicality much, but sometimes it's nice to have lyrics because it's easier to sing along than to play along... >You can tell a difference in that instance. Violins are infinitely >expressive instruments and it's tough to mimic things like that. But done >correctly, you can't tell a difference. It's not often done correctly. >It's certainly not the technology that's the problem. It's the >effort/quality of work put into it by the programmer in the first place. Even with a relatively primitive instrument like drums you can hear a difference, not by the sound itself but through timing and perfectness. Most drummers have a very typical timing and even the best drummers don't hit the same part of the drum head every time, so you get very subtle variants which *could* be immitated with a computer but it would be so much work that it's easier to let a drummer play it. Unfortunately many producers nowadays just use s simple beat that can be handled with the computer without too much effort. I guess you know the joke what the difference between a drumming machine and a drummer is: you only have to teach the machine once what it has to play. But on the other hand a good drummer can play certain patterns in a few seconds when you'd need hours to porgram these. What I noticed is that many people are now unable to recognise that it's a real drum and isn't programmed. When I was on a party recently one song caught my interest because it was one of the few songs without a machine rhythm or a simple rock beat. The others thought it had to be a drum computer as it sounded too complicated to be playable for their ears. I took a look at the booklet and found out that three drummers played on the recording, one whose name I forgot, Jeff Porcaro, who is already dead but is known as a very good drummer, and John Robinson, who is *the* LA studio drummer. So I was right that the drums weren't programmed. >But more to the point, I don't see why anyone would want to. Synths are >instruments in and of themselves. Indeed, that's why I don't understand why so many try to imitate acoustic instruments... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 20:58:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23604 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:58:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 05:14:38 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >So a banana would be male, and a gas nozzle female? ;-) If I have the right translation of "gas nozzle" then it's actually the other way round ;-) A girl is neuter of course ;-) >I didn't find it all that odd. It seemed wordy and "Fancy" for lack of >better terms to describe it, but it wasn't that far off what we speak/ use >today. BTW, are you sure it was really Old English? It might have been Middle English (eg. Chaucer's Canterbury Tales), which isn't that worse, but real Old English doesn't look like English to me. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 20:58:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23611 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:58:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 05:43:48 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I didn't say drop the vocals. I said drop the lyrics. ;-) There's a * HUGE* >difference. But vocals without words is a bit strange, unless it's Bobby McFerrin or Al Jarreau of course... >Emulated, but not stolen. He's a man of musical genius. Being able to play >the notes of another song is one thing, but being able to emulate the >subtle (hehehehe) nuances of other bands is entirely something else. OK, stolen was the wrong term. But you have to admit that Yankovic without words would be senseless. Eg. there is a song called "One More Minute" which sounds so trashy that I didn't like it, but since I really listened to the lyrics it's one of my favourites ;-) >Me either. Screaming in a foreign language is somehow supposed to be >sophisticated? Most operas are just annoying. The best thing is when the hero gets a spear through the chest and sings "I'm dying, I'm dying" for half an hour ;-) But especially some parts of Wagner's "Ring der Nibelungen" is absolutely great! The good thing is that I have a album called "The Ring without Words" ;-) >Those two instruments are near the bottom of my list anyway. ;-) What do you mean? You don't like these or you want to "emulate" them? >I wouldn't understand any of it. German, when spoken, to me sounds really >amusing. I don't know why, either! I thought you weren't listening to the lyrics ;-) >There is more and more acoustic crap here - moreso than I want to hear. >There's only so much a drum/bass/guitar/vocalist can do before it becomes >stale. It was stale when it started (grunge). I'm mainly talking about jazz where you still have sax, trumpet, trumbone, piano, organ, vibes, percussion, the list is really endless... >You must be getting only a fraction of what's going on. I think I'd have >to hear what you're subjected to before being able to understand your >point of view. What I mean that there are only very few musicians who use a synth as an intstrument on it's own and exploit it's doubtless great features, but rather imitate other instruments in such a bad way that it's just stupid and sounds like canned food tastes. >I hate to tell you this, but synths don't work that way. Well, they do if >you buy one at K-Mart or some other $50 POS. They don't come with >preprogrammed rhythms. Then there must be some kind of MIDI libs because there are mainly a hand full of beats used currently. >That's not good synth music. IT's cheesy, top 40ized crap. Harold >Faltermeyer was not known as a "good musician" or synth expert of any >sort. I just enjoy that song, I didn't say that he is overall good. >Some things call for a symphony. But in a lot of cases, at least >throughout movies, filler music is almost all synths. You don't know much John Williams soundtracks, do you? Just watch Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, ET, etc and listen closely to the soundtrack, you'll be surprised! I have several hours of Star Wars soundtracks but I think there is still some material in the movies I don't have on CD. >So then the point being is that the medium is not the problem, but the >implementation. I think so. >If it was something that wasn't the real thing and you couldn't detect it, >how would you know? ;-) Now you're mean ;-) Well, I'm so interested in good saxes that I normally check who is playing and I never found out that it was a computer sax so far. >Really? I've found the Technics boards to be kinda pasty. It's not a board, it's just a box without any keys. But he also has a Yamaha and a Korg. >The Roland series are phoenomenal, however. Sure, Roland is great but should be also expensive. >Wrong. You still have to know musical construction. Beats by themselves >don't do anything unless you have a tune to go with it. You still have to >write the tune. That's why there is so much crap music! >Yes, on "No Jacket Required". It was the absolute worst percussion I had >ever heard on an album. He literally programmed in two measures and >repeated them for the whole song. Go back and listen to it if you don't >believe me. ;-) I haven't listened to my Phil Collins albums for a long time, but I'll check it. Where he isn't that bad is with Brand X where he only plays the drums. But I also don't like the sound of his drums that much anymore. His new Gretsch kit sounds a bit weird. >I never heard the terms "pop a cap" or "smoke a blunt" before I heard some >rap. ;-) I don't even try to understand the texts ;-) >You mean like everything in the 50's? ') Don't ask me, sound all like the same to me. There are only a few rock songs which are really cool, eg. "Rock Around the Clock". I really wonder how I could listen to that much rock and pop a few years ago and at the same time claim that I'll never listen to jazz... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 22:30:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23833 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:30:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:30:32 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Absolutely! Even things that can create only one tone are instruments. > >my point is that what the voice says should have no bearing on the > I have to admit that the text shouldn't affect the musicality much, but And it shouldn't be the main focus, which was my original point. > sometimes it's nice to have lyrics because it's easier to sing along > than to play along... What's weird to me is that I flatly do not hear words when I hear a song. It's just another sound to me. That means if you feed me music that is done in a language I don't speak, I can still sing it back. > >It's certainly not the technology that's the problem. It's the > >effort/quality of work put into it by the programmer in the first > place. > Even with a relatively primitive instrument like drums you can hear a > difference, not by the sound itself but through timing and perfectness. Again, it's all in how it's assembled. Most drum machines are just triggers of drum sounds without any expressive abilities. But there are drum machines that do physical modeling and simulate all apsects of the nuances of drums (FWIW, I was a drummer for about 7 years). Ther are some amazing "Oh my god, that's a drum machine?" recordings that exist. The problem is that the only time you know it's bad is when it is bad. When it's good you won't notice! > Most drummers have a very typical timing and even the best drummers > don't hit the same part of the drum head every time, so you get very > subtle variants which *could* be immitated with a computer but it would > be so much work that it's easier to let a drummer play it. Oh that's not true. You have to get the right drum machine, though. If you've ever had to deal with micing a drum set you'd think differently as well. Hell, even Neil Peart (best drummer in existence) uses drum machines and acoustic drums. > Unfortunately many producers nowadays just use s simple beat that can > be handled with the computer without too much effort. No, they say "Go make a 'song' that will sell these pasty boys". And that's all the producers are capable of. And they in turn say "Gee, I have these old crappy drum tracks laying around. I'll just cut & paste them into this 'new' track." That's why I called it assembly line music. > I guess you know the joke what the difference between a drumming > machine and a drummer is: you only have to teach the machine once what > it has to play. But on the other hand a good drummer can play certain > patterns in a few seconds when you'd need hours to porgram these. It's not hard to program. Like anything, once you've figured out how to work with it, it's easy to continue. > What I noticed is that many people are now unable to recognise that > it's a real drum and isn't programmed. That doesn't surprise me. Most couldn't tell a cheesy drum machines from a real drum set anyway. > a drum computer as it sounded too complicated to be playable for their > ears. I took a look at the booklet and found out that three drummers > played on the recording, one whose name I forgot, Jeff Porcaro, who is Dead? The drummer from Toto? > >But more to the point, I don't see why anyone would want to. Synths > >instruments in and of themselves. > Indeed, that's why I don't understand why so many try to imitate > acoustic instruments... I don't think that's their goal. With this statement you assume that's their goal. You have to assume that they're "just trying to get something done" without actually thinking about overall construction. I cannot for one second believe any top 40 or popular musician with no talent would really say "Let's try to make this sound like real, acoustic drums.". -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 22:31:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23845 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:31:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:31:09 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >So a banana would be male, and a gas nozzle female? ;-) > If I have the right translation of "gas nozzle" then it's actually the > other way round ;-) Um... well, it's the thing that you stick the gas nozzle into. Gascap? I dunno what its proper name is.; -) > >I didn't find it all that odd. It seemed wordy and "Fancy" for lack of > >better terms to describe it, but it wasn't that far off what we speak/ > >today. > BTW, are you sure it was really Old English? It might have been Middle > English (eg. Chaucer's Canterbury Tales), which isn't that worse, but > real Old English doesn't look like English to me. It was from the mid-800's. Would that be considered old or middle? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 22:41:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23879 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:41:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:41:58 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I didn't say drop the vocals. I said drop the lyrics. ;-) There's a * > >difference. > But vocals without words is a bit strange, unless it's Bobby McFerrin > or Al Jarreau of course... Not true. Heard choir arrangements without any words? > OK, stolen was the wrong term. But you have to admit that Yankovic > without words would be senseless. Eg. there is a song called "One More That's because it's comedy set to musical parody. > Minute" which sounds so trashy that I didn't like it, but since I > really listened to the lyrics it's one of my favourites ;-) And he's about the only guy that I actually listen to the lyrics. When I heard him say "I've been milkin' & plowin' so long that even Ezekiel thinks that my mind is gone." I completely lost it. Talking about a guy who knows his biblical history! > >Those two instruments are near the bottom of my list anyway. ;-) > What do you mean? You don't like these or you want to "emulate" them? Either. ;-) Actually, what I don't like about the saxaphone is that people often blat it. Tastefully done sax is fine, but most just blow so hard into it (David Sanborn I cannot fucking *STAND*!) that it ruins any amount of appreciation for it. > >I wouldn't understand any of it. German, when spoken, to me sounds > >amusing. I don't know why, either! > I thought you weren't listening to the lyrics ;-) Well, I can't since I don't understand them, but the sound of the words are an absolute riot. ;-) > >There is more and more acoustic crap here - moreso than I want to > >There's only so much a drum/bass/guitar/vocalist can do before it > >stale. It was stale when it started (grunge). > I'm mainly talking about jazz where you still have sax, trumpet, > trumbone, piano, organ, vibes, percussion, the list is really > endless... Oh. Well, you know what they say about jazz: Play a song wrong once and it's a mistake. Play it wrong twice and it's jazz. ;-) > >You must be getting only a fraction of what's going on. I think I'd > >to hear what you're subjected to before being able to understand your > >point of view. > What I mean that there are only very few musicians who use a synth as > an intstrument on it's own and exploit it's doubtless great features, No, there are quite a few who do, but they most often go unheard. > but rather imitate other instruments in such a bad way that it's just > stupid and sounds like canned food tastes. It's like using a stupid/lame prop in a movie. Easy to spot. But sometimes that stupid/lame prop is exactly what the music calls for. > >I hate to tell you this, but synths don't work that way. Well, they do > >you buy one at K-Mart or some other $50 POS. They don't come with > >preprogrammed rhythms. > Then there must be some kind of MIDI libs because there are mainly a > hand full of beats used currently. There are a couple of common drum loops used (the 'Paid in full' loop was horribly overused), but if you're talking about a standard 4 on the floor techno beat, that's just a bass drum on every quarter note. It's not like they're sharing that. That would be like saying "Well, all the programs out there are just sharing the same main() construct in the programs." > >That's not good synth music. IT's cheesy, top 40ized crap. Harold > >Faltermeyer was not known as a "good musician" or synth expert of any > I just enjoy that song, I didn't say that he is overall good. Hm... to quote you, "Don't get me wrong, I like good computer music. I recently bought the soundtrack of Beverly Hills Cop, just because I always liked the song Axel F!" I somehow got the impression that you thought it was good computer music. ;-) > >Some things call for a symphony. But in a lot of cases, at least > >throughout movies, filler music is almost all synths. > You don't know much John Williams soundtracks, do you? I know tons about John Williams soundtracks, actually. > Just watch Star > Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, ET, etc and listen closely to the > soundtrack, you'll be surprised! I have several hours of Star Wars > soundtracks but I think there is still some material in the movies I > don't have on CD. Yep, and all those movies were made before synthesizers were heavily used in theater. All you've got to do now is listen to the soundtrack to Star Wars: Episode 1. Almost all of it is synth work. From John Williams himself. > >If it was something that wasn't the real thing and you couldn't detect > >how would you know? ;-) > Now you're mean ;-) > Well, I'm so interested in good saxes that I normally check who is > playing and I never found out that it was a computer sax so far. That's like saying, "I've never met a vegetarian who had their head screwed on straight." The only ones you notice are the ones that stick out. > >I never heard the terms "pop a cap" or "smoke a blunt" before I heard > some > >rap. ;-) > I don't even try to understand the texts ;-) "pop a cap" I guess is slang for shooting a bullet, and "smoke a blunt" means to smoke a "blunt", or a marijuana filled cigar. I had never heard the term "dissin'", either (means disrespecting). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 12 23:03:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA23927 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 23:03:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 23:03:03 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: My tunes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com For those who are interested in a sample of one of my tracks: ftp://mp3:gimmegoa@archive.synthcom.com/mp3s/Unsorted/passion.mp3 Note that MP3 ruins the high end and smears some of the detail, but check it out if you're interested. FWIW, The drums are the weakest aspect, but the rest is really solid. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 00:01:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24093 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:01:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003130748.IAA19311@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 10, 2000 01:15:49 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:48:35 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Damn It. Too many mails ;) This what happens when you don't have a modem ... Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 00:37:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24190 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:37:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003130824.JAA25525@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 11, 2000 01:31:35 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:24:20 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > The big disadvantage to "stopping every once in a while" is that you have > > > to design your execution path so that it "breaks out" of what it's doing > > > for a while. The less you have to break out from doing, the faster the > > > service is going to be. > > > Do you mean a kind of event handled emulator? (I think I'm using the > > wrong words ....). > > Separate thread. For audio, the hardware can call you back when it needs > more data. For controllers, they're all interrupt driven (with the > exception of the joystick which can be simluated). Under any modern OS you > get callbacks when they're moved/hit, etc... > This could be a good idea. I thought many times why threads are not used in emulation (win9x or Unix emulators, in DOS this cant't be done). Emulation seems a good task for use threaded programming. Do you know if someone has used this approach for emulation? Use a thread for each emulation process could be really good and elegant (one for CPU another for graphics, sound and so on). I don't know if this would really work or not. > > Use interruptions to handle I/O in the emulator and > > do it in the main loop? > > No need to do it in any loop. Any OS you're running under can handle such > a task. Under DOS they're inside the interrupt handler. Under Windows, > it's message pumps and threads. It seems so obvious to me, yet I'm floored > by others who still insist, in this day and age, on POLLING devices that > are interrupt driven. Sorry I make a mistake I wanted to say don't use a main loop (I miss the not, too fast writing ;) I think I agree with you, if you are running in a OS like Windows you must use what it offers to you. Using interrupts in DOS could be interesting too. Many things to think about this. > > Polling is for sissys. > > > > Zillions more ideas where that came from... > > Really? I love discuss about new ideas ;) > > Yeah, me too, but I don't have that much time. ;( > I think nobody has that much time :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 00:55:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24250 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:55:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003130841.JAA28041@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 12, 2000 05:12:45 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:41:58 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I actually don't understand the whole masculine/feminine thing (unless > it > >pertains to actual sexes). Why attach a masculine/feminine label to > >*ANYTHING* (other than animals/people) at all? > > I think there's also a long answer to your question, but the short one > is: history! > It's hard to explain why the people came up with it, maybe > anthropomorphism, who knows? You actually still have it in some parts > of English, although not visable through the article. > Eg. in English poetry the moon is always female and the sun always > male, which is the exact parallel to Spanish "la luna" and "le sol" - > please correct me Victor if I should be wrong. Funnily in German it's It's pretty similar: 'la luna' femenine, 'el sol' masculine. Perhaps I will ask someone about why in latin languages exists masculine/femenine for objectes (why a table 'mesa' in spanish is femenine ...). I don't remember anything about this from my student children days. There are some cases where a same word can be used in femenine and masculine, for exemple sea, in spanish 'mar': the normal way is to say 'el mar' but also is used 'la mar' in poetry. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 00:56:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24259 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:56:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003130843.JAA18836@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 12, 2000 05:24:18 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:43:38 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Compilation means aggregating groups of instructions/operations into > >smaller groups of operations. We are optimizing the code somewhat, and > >this makes compilation a correct term for what we're doing. > > You're probably right, but it still sounds as if a high-level (hyphen > or not?) language was involved, which can be a bit confusing. > > >Perhaps "Dynamic translation" is a better term. > > Better than dynamic recompilation anyway, although dynatrans doesn't > sound as good as dynarec ;-) If someone have readed the partial document I post to mul8 he will know my opinion about this. I'm with the dynamic translation team :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 01:01:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24286 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 01:01:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003130846.JAA09400@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 12, 2000 05:24:18 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:46:56 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >Interestingly enough, in theory my approach (with a self-referrential > >recompile) can do exactly this. Of course it may not be able to in the > >case of indirect jumps, but it should be possible. > > Even a static recompiler has the same problem with indirect jumps, > which is why you still need a good runtime system. In Dixie (where I'm working) we use many passes in static translation. We build a translation, we execute it, it fails somewhere because of not translated address, this is stored in a file and passed to the translator and another translation is builded. So on until all code used is translated. Not really aplicable to emulation I think. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 01:17:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24333 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 01:17:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003130904.KAA27438@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 12, 2000 11:03:03 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:04:04 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com This seems a general purpose mail list now :) Luckyly we are only a three persons and not a hundred :) If anyone is interested I like all the music than sound well (for my ;). Actually a listen more heavy metal (most mellodic heavy like Hellowen or Blind Guardian, but also IronMaiden and Mannowar) but it's because I listen my brother's tapes :). I also listen a lot manga/anime (japannese cartoons) and japan videogames music. I'm a manga maniac (I think is otaku), a new kind of illness ;) And if you talk about languages I know a middle way french-spanish language too, catalonian, it's the language of the country (region) I life and I think is a really beatiful language for literature. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 01:40:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24379 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 01:40:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 01:40:43 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec discussion from mul8 In-Reply-To: <200003130824.JAA25525@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > more data. For controllers, they're all interrupt driven (with the > > exception of the joystick which can be simluated). Under any modern OS you > > get callbacks when they're moved/hit, etc... > This could be a good idea. I thought many times why threads are not > used in emulation (win9x or Unix emulators, in DOS this cant't be > done). Emulation seems a good task for use threaded programming. Do > you know if someone has used this approach for emulation? Use a > thread for each emulation process could be really good and elegant > (one for CPU another for graphics, sound and so on). I don't know if > this would really work or not. I'm sure it could be done, however in most cases where there are multiple processors involved, they have to be synchronized, so you may as well single thread it. Under DOS and Windows 95/98, there's no point in making CPU execution separate threads because no other CPUs will handle it anyway. As an example, in the game Major Havoc when the main CPU speaks to the sound CPU, the sound CPU has to acknowledge the host CPU in 200 clocks, otherwise it gets reset by the main processor. Really annoying. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 06:23:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25167 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:23:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:54:02 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >For those who are interested in a sample of one of my tracks: >ftp://mp3:gimmegoa@archive.synthcom.com/mp3s/Unsorted/passion.mp3 >Note that MP3 ruins the high end and smears some of the detail, but check >it out if you're interested. >FWIW, The drums are the weakest aspect, but the rest is really solid. Thanks, I'm currently listening to it ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 06:23:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25166 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:23:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:52:52 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Um... well, it's the thing that you stick the gas nozzle into. Gascap? I >dunno what its proper name is.; -) Hmm, then it's somethigh different than I thought but it's still masculine because the term is "der Einfuellstutzen". >It was from the mid-800's. Would that be considered old or middle? That's Old English for sure! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 06:23:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25174 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:23:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:05:03 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Not true. Heard choir arrangements without any words? Ok, agreed. >Either. ;-) Actually, what I don't like about the saxaphone is that people >often blat it. Tastefully done sax is fine, but most just blow so hard >into it (David Sanborn I cannot fucking *STAND*!) that it ruins any amount >of appreciation for it. David Sanborn is quite good actually but I think the newer stuff is too commercial. He sounds cool on the John McLaughlin album "The Promise" (with yet another great drummer: Dennis Chambers). I think Eric Marienthal is very good, but my personal favourite is Steve Tavaglione. That man is a god, no matter if he plays tenor, soprano, or EWI. Try his album "Silent Singing" if you don't believe me. >Well, I can't since I don't understand them, but the sound of the words >are an absolute riot. ;-) That harsh? >Oh. Well, you know what they say about jazz: >Play a song wrong once and it's a mistake. Play it wrong twice and it's >jazz. ;-) Hehe ;-) Well, I'm not the friend of highly improvised jazz, but it's a bit boring to play a song always the same way. >There are a couple of common drum loops used (the 'Paid in full' loop was >horribly overused), but if you're talking about a standard 4 on the floor >techno beat, that's just a bass drum on every quarter note. It's not like >they're sharing that. I don't mean techno, but rather the dancefloor type where you only have very few beats and that typical overlengthened half-open hi-hats. >That would be like saying "Well, all the programs out there are just >sharing the same main() construct in the programs." Isn't that true? ;-) >I somehow got the impression that you thought it was good computer music. >;-) I mean that song isn't bad, but Harold Faltermeyer isn't necessarily that good. >I know tons about John Williams soundtracks, actually. Reall? I'm still looking for the Superman soundtrack... >Yep, and all those movies were made before synthesizers were heavily used >in theater. He used synths realtively early, just think of Close Encounters. >All you've got to do now is listen to the soundtrack to Star >Wars: Episode 1. Almost all of it is synth work. From John Williams >himself. I think the only synth used in Episode 1 is a howling sound in one of the battle tracks, but otherwise it's all the London Symphony Orchestra. >"pop a cap" I guess is slang for shooting a bullet, and "smoke a blunt" >means to smoke a "blunt", or a marijuana filled cigar. I had never heard >the term "dissin'", either (means disrespecting). Certainly not my kind of language. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 06:23:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25180 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:23:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Music Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:43:17 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com [lyrics] >And it shouldn't be the main focus, which was my original point. Yeah, the music is what impresses me first. Only later I notice if the text is good or crap. >What's weird to me is that I flatly do not hear words when I hear a song. >It's just another sound to me. That means if you feed me music that is >done in a language I don't speak, I can still sing it back. You have to try that with Arabic music ;-) >Again, it's all in how it's assembled. Most drum machines are just >triggers of drum sounds without any expressive abilities. But there are >drum machines that do physical modeling and simulate all apsects of the >nuances of drums (FWIW, I was a drummer for about 7 years). I read that the Roland V-drums should be quite good, but I haven't heard these yet. >There are some amazing "Oh my god, that's a drum machine?" recordings that >exist. The problem is that the only time you know it's bad is when it is >bad. When it's good you won't notice! Do you know any examples? >Oh that's not true. You have to get the right drum machine, though. If >you've ever had to deal with mixing a drum set you'd think differently as >well. Well, most drum recordings are crap anyway. When I set up my kit I thought I was unable to get it right because I got the snare sound every time I hit one of the tom-toms or the bass drum. In good recordings you notice that this is the case for all set ups but most just filter that away. >Hell, even Neil Peart (best drummer in existence) uses drum machines >and acoustic drums. That name does sound familiar but I'm not sure if I know any of his work. But it seems you've never heard Vinnie Colaiuta or Dave Weckl. A relatively unkown but great drummer is Gary Chaffee. On the Mick Goodrick album Biorhythms he plays on a song simply called Groove Test, and that's how it sounds ;-) BTW, Stuart Elliott does drum programming and sometimes plays Simmons E -drums, you just have to know when to use what. >No, they say "Go make a 'song' that will sell these pasty boys". And >that's all the producers are capable of. And they in turn say "Gee, I have >these old crappy drum tracks laying around. I'll just cut & paste them >into this 'new' track." That's why I called it assembly line music. Yeah, as long as you have some cute guys hopping around the chicks will buy it... >It's not hard to program. Like anything, once you've figured out how to >work with it, it's easy to continue. You have to listen to some Vinnie Colaiuta tracks. This is where you think he must have at least four arms and three legs and two brains to coordinate it all... Such things will be very tricky to programm. >That doesn't surprise me. Most couldn't tell a cheesy drum machines from >a real drum set anyway. Yeah, and some drums are recorded that bad that the drummer could beat trash cans and you wouldn't hear a difference. My father has the first Wilson Philips albums where I thought: the drummer is not bad but the drums sound like plastic. I was shocked to find out that the drummer is John Robinson, who plays a Pearl Masters and a brass snare! The recording is just crap! >Dead? The drummer from Toto? Up to my knowledge, yes. >I don't think that's their goal. With this statement you assume that's >their goal. You have to assume that they're "just trying to get something >done" without actually thinking about overall construction. I cannot for >one second believe any top 40 or popular musician with no talent would >really say "Let's try to make this sound like real, acoustic drums.". I didn't mean that the want to have it sound like acoustic drums, but they still have something that can be identified as snare, bass drum, and hi-hats, which totally gets onto my nerves. Either it should sound like a real drum kit or they shouldn't try to imitate a kit. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 06:53:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25301 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:53:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Off Topic: Language Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:28:34 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It's pretty similar: 'la luna' femenine, 'el sol' masculine. Oops, I wrote "le sol". There you see how good your English is compared to my Spanish! >Perhaps I will ask >someone about why in latin languages exists masculine/femenine for objectes (why >a table 'mesa' in spanish is femenine ...). That surely comes from Latin "mensa", which is feminine too. >There are some cases where a same word can >be used in femenine and masculine, for exemple sea, in spanish 'mar': the normal >way is to say 'el mar' but also is used 'la mar' in poetry. In German we have some words in several genders while every means something different. Poetry is a special case of course. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 06:53:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25312 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:31:30 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >In Dixie (where I'm working) we use many passes in static translation. We build >a translation, we execute it, it fails somewhere because of not translated >address, this is stored in a file and passed to the translator and another >translation is builded. Yeah, that's know as the fallback method. Some static translator don't retranslate but interpret in such a case tough. >So on until all code used is translated. Not really >aplicable to emulation I think. Certainly too slow! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 06:53:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25313 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:34:42 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >This seems a general purpose mail list now :) I think NB never defined which topics are allowed ;-) >Luckyly we are only a three persons and not a hundred :) Too true. We'd get covered with messages otherwise! >And if you talk about languages I know a middle way french-spanish language too, >catalonian, it's the language of the country (region) I life and I think is a >really beatiful language for literature. Wow! Only four guys on the list and two know very rare language like Welsh or Catalonian! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 08:57:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA25771 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CD0FC9.6821E1FB@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:56:57 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Really? Like who? > > What I can't stand or what I like? I meant who you like, but you can tell us who you don't like too. It's just that the former list is likely to be shorter. :) > > There is a difference to the way a British person and an American person > > pronounces the word too. You actually say it as Col-Or and we say it as > > Col-Er. The "ou" sound comes from French. That may be why we have different > > spellings. > > It's pronounced col-er. But how you get an "er" out of "our" is beyond me. > But then again, British English has a far worse problem of taking words > from other languages, not altering their spelling and changing the way > they're pronounced. ;-) But we don't say "Col-er" though. I've changed my mind. It's more like "Col-ur". :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 13 08:58:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA25780 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:58:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CD0FB7.EA938400@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:56:39 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Victor's recomp comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > After all, anything that can create several different tones could be called > > instrumental. Even a *voice* is an instrument! > > Absolutely! Even things that can create only one tone are instruments. But > my point is that what the voice says should have no bearing on the > musicality. I'd agree with this most of the time, but I hate the music by the various boy bands mainly because of the words - so I can't say I'm 100% with this. :) > > I bet I would when a violin is involved. I've heard some really nice > > synths - like the flagship Yamaha one. It still can't produce a realistic > > violin sound. At least: I can tell the difference. > > You can tell a difference in that instance. Violins are infinitely > expressive instruments and it's tough to mimic things like that. But done > correctly, you can't tell a difference. It's not often done correctly. > It's certainly not the technology that's the problem. It's the > effort/quality of work put into it by the programmer in the first place. Of course. There's no reason why it CAN'T be done properly - it's just difficult to do. > But more to the point, I don't see why anyone would want to. Synths are > instruments in and of themselves. Okay, but then we can't talk about sampling anymore. Unless you mean that you should use a synth AND a violin. > > the difference. But there are some instruments that can't be reproduced too > > well at the moment. The trumpet is another example - I can usually tell the > > difference too! > > No, they can be reproduced quite well. It's just rare that they're > actually done well. I've heard one good example of a trumpet on a Roland, but I can't tell you what the model number was... > > That's the difference between a musician and a wannabe. :) > > Or a "DJ". I have a saying: > > DJ's are to music as security guards are to law enforcement. > > Totally true. ;-) I like that saying. I might just liberate that. :) > > Agreed. Crap. Well, some modern rock is okay, but if I'm going for rock, I > > prefer it from the 60's-70's and early 80's periods. > > Yeah. Modern rock is quite scarce in terms of quality. Agreed. Some of the bands I do like who can do this are "Manic Street Preachers" and "Stereophonics". Don't know if you've heard of them or not. > > Do you use those? Because if you do, I've *never* heard of that before! :o > > No, no, no no.... I'm just saying they'd be better spellings than what > we've got currently. Ah, good. I thought I was going mad there. :)) > > You're right - technically they are better spellings. But they look so > > terrible to me at the moment! :o > > Yeah. I read "Dout" as Data Out, and a "suttle" as "scuttle". ;-) I don't know what I read them as, they just didn't make sense. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 08:22:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA30460 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003141609.RAA12651@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: New mul8 list In-Reply-To: <38CD0FC9.6821E1FB@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 13, 2000 04:56:57 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:09:42 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Is the new mul8 list working? I haven't recieved any mail. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 08:41:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA30515 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:41:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CE6725.6F0AB1E2@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:21:57 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list References: <200003141609.RAA12651@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Is the new mul8 list working? I haven't recieved any mail. I haven't either - and I've tried sending some! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 08:48:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA30532 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:48:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003141633.RAA02650@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list In-Reply-To: <38CE6725.6F0AB1E2@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 14, 2000 05:21:57 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:33:54 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > Is the new mul8 list working? I haven't recieved any mail. > > I haven't either - and I've tried sending some! :o > > I'm too, and I haven't received it yet :( NB, what is happening :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 09:13:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA30635 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:13:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:13:29 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list In-Reply-To: <38CE6725.6F0AB1E2@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Is the new mul8 list working? I haven't recieved any mail. > I haven't either - and I've tried sending some! :o Sorry - I had a split line with a hard carriage return in it instead of a wrapped one in the configuration file. It works now! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 09:27:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA30693 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:27:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CE722C.A8FA7B70@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:09:00 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi. > > > Is the new mul8 list working? I haven't recieved any mail. > > I haven't either - and I've tried sending some! :o > > Sorry - I had a split line with a hard carriage return in it instead of a > wrapped one in the configuration file. It works now! Okay, cool. Thanks! BTW, I've just been listening to your "pasion.mp3" track. It's very nice. In particular, I found the last minute or so particularly good - not sure why, it just appeals more to me. The music reminds me of Jarre, but that could just be me. Whatever, that's certainly a compliment - I like Jean Michelle Jarre. :) It would sound better when not in MP3 format - but then I'm not listening with my HiFi but with a pair of crappy Phillips headphones, so I can't really tell. BTW, the 5.1 compression used on DVDs can be used on regular sound files to give a very nice compression ratio, but keep the majority of the quality. Especially so because it doesn't have the 12 or 16KHz cutoff that MP3 usually has - it goes up to either 20 or 24KHz. And can anyone tell me what "FWIW" means? I've seen NB use it on numberous times, but I'm not sure what it means! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 10:07:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA30830 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:07:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:07:45 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list In-Reply-To: <38CE722C.A8FA7B70@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > BTW, I've just been listening to your "pasion.mp3" track. It's very nice. > In particular, I found the last minute or so particularly good - not sure > why, it just appeals more to me. The music reminds me of Jarre, but that > could just be me. Whatever, that's certainly a compliment - I like Jean > Michelle Jarre. :) Eeeew... nice sound effects, but lousy musicality... But yeah, I like some of his work too - Zoolook. > It would sound better when not in MP3 format - but then I'm not listening > with my HiFi but with a pair of crappy Phillips headphones, so I can't Yeah. It's encoded at 160kbps and it really trashes the high end and dynamics. You can also download the .WAV of it if you want 60+MB to download. ;-) It's in the same folder. > really tell. BTW, the 5.1 compression used on DVDs can be used on regular > sound files to give a very nice compression ratio, but keep the majority of > the quality. Especially so because it doesn't have the 12 or 16KHz cutoff > that MP3 usually has - it goes up to either 20 or 24KHz. It's still lossy, though. > And can anyone tell me what "FWIW" means? I've seen NB use it on numberous > times, but I'm not sure what it means! For What It's Worth. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 10:39:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA30953 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:39:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:23:03 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I thought you might have some feedback... I have to admit that this isn't the style of music I listen to very often so it's possible that I don't appreciate the right features. It certainly is a real synth song, which exploits some typical synth effects. Especially the echo and pitch are nice. It's also cool to have the 'bass' play parts of the tune and not only use it for rhythm purposes. Just as NG I think the last minute (and 15 seconds) is the best part because new sounds and a new tune are introduced, and the ending is quite nice - I just hate the fade outs most do when they don't come up with a good ending. Although encoded with 160kbps instead of the standard 128kbps I get the impression that MP3 might have 'flattened' the song a bit... Certainly not a bad song, and after listening to it several times I had the one tune (the one NG also seems to enjoy) in my head for hours, so it must have made a bigger impression on me than I first though... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 10:58:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA31076 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:58:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:58:56 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I thought you might have some feedback... > I have to admit that this isn't the style of music I listen to very > often so it's possible that I don't appreciate the right features. That's fairly common. If you don't listen to synth music it's tough to really "get it" fully. I've had people listen to this track a million times and I can still point out things that they hadn't heard before. BTW, Did you hear a voice (as in a human voice) in the track anywhere? There's one there, and it's mine... > Just as NG I think the last minute (and 15 seconds) is the best part > because new sounds and a new tune are introduced, and the ending is > quite nice - I just hate the fade outs most do when they don't come up > with a good ending. Yep - me too. I personally like the tail end of it myself. What's funny is so many people tell me that synth music is emotionless crap. Well, there's tons of emotion in Passion! > Although encoded with 160kbps instead of the standard 128kbps I get the > impression that MP3 might have 'flattened' the song a bit... It did. > Certainly not a bad song, and after listening to it several times I had > the one tune (the one NG also seems to enjoy) in my head for hours, so > it must have made a bigger impression on me than I first though... And that's the entire goal. Creating something that sticks in your head that doesn't get tiring after repeated listenings. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 11:21:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA31262 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:06:27 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >That's fairly common. If you don't listen to synth music it's tough to >really "get it" fully. I've had people listen to this track a million >times and I can still point out things that they hadn't heard before. I just wanted to warn that I'm not an expert might not reach the intended result. >BTW, Did you hear a voice (as in a human voice) in the track anywhere? Nope... >There's one there, and it's mine... Now that you mention it... I think it's in the background and comes through in a few places, eg. after 27 seconds, right? >Yep - me too. I personally like the tail end of it myself. Yeah it's really not bad. >What's funny is >so many people tell me that synth music is emotionless crap. Well, there's >tons of emotion in Passion! There is threat, peace, joy, ... >And that's the entire goal. Creating something that sticks in your head >that doesn't get tiring after repeated listenings. My first impression was that there are some lengths with too less change, but it's similar with jazz. If there is a jazz song I like on first hearing then it's likely that I find it boring soon. For the others I have to found a small part of the song that I really like (in your song the part after 3:30) to have a starting point. When I listen to a song over and over again I'll either find out that it's more better than I thought at first or it will just turn out to be boring. Your song seems to belong to the group where my liking increases with repeated listening. That's why I stated my opinion this late, because I know that I need some time with certain songs... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 18:42:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA32983 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:42:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 03:27:14 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, this isn't directly a dynarec related question, but I think some of you should know enough assembly to help me. To learn more about x86 assembly I just wanted to see what kind of code the BeOS port of the GCC produces for a simple function. And the function I tested is very simple indeed: int inc(int i) { return i++; } The output without optimisation is a bit long, but seems to be correct: .file "inc.c" gcc2_compiled.: .text .align 4 .globl inc .type inc,@function inc: pushl %ebp movl %esp,%ebp movl 8(%ebp),%eax incl 8(%ebp) movl %eax,%eax jmp .L1 .p2align 4,,7 .L1: movl %ebp,%esp popl %ebp ret .Lfe1: .size inc,.Lfe1-inc .ident "GCC: (GNU) 2.9-beos-980929" But with the option -O1 GCC seems to "overoptimise": .file "inc.c" gcc2_compiled.: .text .align 4 .globl inc .type inc,@function inc: pushl %ebp movl %esp,%ebp movl 8(%ebp),%eax movl %ebp,%esp popl %ebp ret .Lfe1: .size inc,.Lfe1-inc .ident "GCC: (GNU) 2.9-beos-980929" Either I'm totally nuts or the code only copies the argument to the accumulator and does nothing with it! Is this a compiler error or am I just too stupid today? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 14 19:30:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA33130 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:30:03 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > To learn more about x86 assembly I just wanted to see what kind of code > the BeOS port of the GCC produces for a simple function. Yeuck. First and foremost, remember that GCC generates *HORRIBLE* x86 code. It might do fine for RISC based architectures Secondly, don't get used to AT&T verbose, backwards-assed syntax. It makes things a bitch to read. For example: movl %esp, %ebp The "l" on the mov instruction isn't necessary because esp and ebp by their very definition are long. And secondly, it should be "mov ebp, esp", as in ebp=esp, not the other way around. Gas is universally laughed as as an assembler. Use NASM instead. It doesn't used screwed up, verbose syntax. Lastly, GCC generates code using stack calling conventions, which by its very nature is slower than register calls. Okay, off my soapbox now. Let's get to your example: And the > function I tested is very simple indeed: > > int inc(int i) > { > return i++; > } Technically, I shouldn't actually return I being incremented because it's a post ++. That's what the code does: > pushl %ebp > movl %esp,%ebp > movl 8(%ebp),%eax ; eax=[ebp+8] > incl 8(%ebp) ; Increments the value on the stack > movl %eax,%eax ; Braindead > jmp .L1 > .p2align 4,,7 > .L1: > movl %ebp,%esp > popl %ebp ; Return value in eax. It's correct. > But with the option -O1 GCC seems to "overoptimise": > pushl %ebp > movl %esp,%ebp > movl 8(%ebp),%eax > movl %ebp,%esp > popl %ebp > ret Nope. It's right. The increment happens after the return happens. Since it's incrementing a stack variable that is only valid during the procedure, it gets eliminated. This is actually correct. Here's what Watcom produces: Module: C:\TEMP\TEST.C Group: 'DGROUP' CONST,CONST2,_DATA,_BSS Segment: _TEXT BYTE USE32 0000001 bytes 0000 c3 inc_ ret No disassembly errors ------------------------------------------------------------ Perhaps you meant to: int inc(int i) { return ++i; } If so, here's what Watcom produces: Module: C:\TEMP\TEST.C Group: 'DGROUP' CONST,CONST2,_DATA,_BSS Segment: _TEXT BYTE USE32 00000002 bytes 0000 40 inc_ inc eax 0001 c3 ret No disassembly errors ------------------------------------------------------------ This is default optimization in Watcom. Even though this version of the compiler is now 5 years old, it still blows the doors off GCC and any other compiler for the x86 platform. I've done case studies of the others if you're interested. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:06:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA33926 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:06:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF4090.CCD19BCF@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:49:37 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > Secondly, don't get used to AT&T verbose, backwards-assed syntax. It makes > things a bitch to read. For example: > > movl %esp, %ebp > > The "l" on the mov instruction isn't necessary because esp and ebp by > their very definition are long. And secondly, it should be "mov ebp, esp", > as in ebp=esp, not the other way around. > > Really uggly :) In AT&T destination and target register are swapped. The first time I saw this kind of assembly I get a terrible headache. > > Lastly, GCC generates code using stack calling conventions, which by its > very nature is slower than register calls. > > Okay, off my soapbox now. Let's get to your example: > > And the > > function I tested is very simple indeed: > > > > int inc(int i) > > { > > return i++; > > } > > Technically, I shouldn't actually return I being incremented because it's > a post ++. That's what the code does: > Ops, I didn't see this ... Michel has found a really weird example. OK. I have thought something. You say you have 'zillions' (10^10000000000.....0 ;) new ideas. I don't have so many ideas ;) but perhaps I will think some. Why not do a 'week subject' and discuss about it? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:14:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA33946 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:14:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:14:51 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Now that you mention it... > I think it's in the background and comes through in a few places, eg. > after 27 seconds, right? Nope. That's a synth - purely. The voice hits (which are very quick), are at 01:04. It is then "stacatto'd" and panned back and forth. You heart it again in the same form at 4:12. It's not the voice that's most prominent - it's panned left and right. But it's there. The prominent crying voice you hear at 4:12 is a bizarre synthesizer called an Oberheim Matrix 12. Here's a set of pictures of my recording studio: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio1.jpg http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio2.jpg http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio3.jpg http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio4.jpg The Matrix 12 is the bottom synthesizer in the "studio2.jpg" picture above. > >Yep - me too. I personally like the tail end of it myself. > Yeah it's really not bad. Hm.... I'm not sure how to take this. ;-) When somone says "really not bad" it usually means "it doesn't totally suck". ;-) > >What's funny is > >so many people tell me that synth music is emotionless crap. Well, > >tons of emotion in Passion! > There is threat, peace, joy, ... Frustration, anxiety, and hopefulness. > >And that's the entire goal. Creating something that sticks in your > >that doesn't get tiring after repeated listenings. > My first impression was that there are some lengths with too less > change, but it's similar with jazz. If there is a jazz song I like on As long as it doesn't go on too long... > others I have to found a small part of the song that I really like (in > your song the part after 3:30) to have a starting point. When I listen Yeah, everyone seems to like that part of it, too. It's weird how I came up with it, too. The actual original "tune" was the sequence from 3:38 to 3:45. I was fiddling around with the OB-8 (board above the Matrix 12) one night really, really late and I had it going through an effects processor with fairly heavy chorusing and delay. > Your song seems to belong to the group where my liking increases with > repeated listening. That's why I stated my opinion this late, because I > know that I need some time with certain songs... Hope so. ;-) I've put up another one for your listening (hopefully) pleasure... Quite a bit more synthpoppy, but still sonically interesting. I have some other really bizarre stuff, too if you're interested. Here's two more tracks if you get bored: ftp://mp3:gimmegoa@archive.synthcom.com/mp3s/Unsorted/artinmo.mp3 ftp://mp3:gimmegoa@archive.synthcom.com/mp3s/Unsorted/transist.mp3 The former is synthpoppy and has an un-faded ending. It originally was to have words. The second is a bit more Jarreish. Enjoy! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:16:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA33966 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:16:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF4271.F50AACAB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:57:37 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Eeeew... nice sound effects, but lousy musicality... But yeah, I like some > of his work too - Zoolook. I disagree with "lousy musicality". Although some of his earlier stuff was, his modern stuff isn't. I can MP3 up one of his modern tracks of his new album (Metamorphoses, released last month) if you don't believe me. ;) > > It would sound better when not in MP3 format - but then I'm not listening > > with my HiFi but with a pair of crappy Phillips headphones, so I can't > > Yeah. It's encoded at 160kbps and it really trashes the high end and > dynamics. You can also download the .WAV of it if you want 60+MB to > download. ;-) It's in the same folder. I didn't use an FTP program to get it - I'm behind a proxy/firewall. Yuk, no regular FTP. I've got to use *shudder* Netscape! Aaarggghh! > > really tell. BTW, the 5.1 compression used on DVDs can be used on regular > > sound files to give a very nice compression ratio, but keep the majority of > > the quality. Especially so because it doesn't have the 12 or 16KHz cutoff > > that MP3 usually has - it goes up to either 20 or 24KHz. > > It's still lossy, though. Of course. But the difference is that you can't tell anymore. Some of my friends are really heavily into HiFi. We went around to one guys house who has some really nice kit (all Meridian). The speakers, in particular, were DSP5000s. They're selling for 1750 pounds per SPEAKER in the UK. So 3500 for both. As you can imagine, pretty damn nice speakers. All digital transfer etc. Anyway, we tried out many types of lossy compressions to see which sounded the best. It was the one I mentioned before, without doubt. You couldn't tell the difference on some recordings - and the ones that you could were barely noticable. Seriously, it's good enough that you can compress the file and uncompress it later to do editing work on. Although lossy, you just aren't going to notice the difference. And if you do, you've got some seriously good kit there. > > And can anyone tell me what "FWIW" means? I've seen NB use it on numberous > > times, but I'm not sure what it means! > > For What It's Worth. Ah, thank you! I figured something like that, but I never knew exactly what it was. For me, it was JAMA - Jusy Another Meaningless Acronym. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:23:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA33979 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:23:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:23:15 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list In-Reply-To: <38CF4271.F50AACAB@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Eeeew... nice sound effects, but lousy musicality... But yeah, I like some > > of his work too - Zoolook. > I disagree with "lousy musicality". Although some of his earlier stuff was, > his modern stuff isn't. I can MP3 up one of his modern tracks of his new > album (Metamorphoses, released last month) if you don't believe me. ;) Anything up to the early 90's was weak musically. Upload an MP3 of his latest stuff. > > > really tell. BTW, the 5.1 compression used on DVDs can be used on regular > > > sound files to give a very nice compression ratio, but keep the majority of > > > the quality. Especially so because it doesn't have the 12 or 16KHz cutoff > > > that MP3 usually has - it goes up to either 20 or 24KHz. > > It's still lossy, though. > Of course. But the difference is that you can't tell anymore. Uh, do you mean MP3s or the 5.1 channels on DVD? It's obviously less important with DVDs and movies in general, but you absolutely, positively *CAN* tell a difference. Most notably muted high end, grainy hi hats, squished dynamic range, and attack times on things get smeared. Of course, techno and highly detailed music are affected the most (my music, for example). If you don't believe me, download the MP3 of my tunes and the wave files. There's a *HUGE* amount of detail lost at 160Kbps. If you can't hear it, I'm sorry, but you're deaf. > Some of my > friends are really heavily into HiFi. We went around to one guys house who > has some really nice kit (all Meridian). The speakers, in particular, were > DSP5000s. They're selling for 1750 pounds per SPEAKER in the UK. So 3500 > for both. As you can imagine, pretty damn nice speakers. All digital Well, I have a pair of Kef series 107/2's that cost $7500/US. Does that count? ;-) I'm driving it with a Denon AVR-5600 receiver and a Denon DCD-2500. > compress the file and uncompress it later to do editing work on. Although > lossy, you just aren't going to notice the difference. And if you do, > you've got some seriously good kit there. The difference is instantly noticeable. Remember that I've got over a decade's worth of studio production experience and I'm trained to listen to imperfections, which jump out at me - not because I'm looking for them, but because I've trained myself to hear these flaws in the studio. I'm sure that if I pointed out the differences you'd NEVER be able to not hear them. If you A/B the wav file and the MP3 file, you'll notice a nasty amount of difference. Really, though, the MP3 file format is popular only because of bandwidth limitations of most people's downloads. In 5 years, MP3 won't need to exist for most of the world. Wav files (or uncompressed) are better quality and the need for compressing things will be diminished. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:24:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA33988 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:24:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF441F.5DD2C94D@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:04:47 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > That's fairly common. If you don't listen to synth music it's tough to > really "get it" fully. I've had people listen to this track a million > times and I can still point out things that they hadn't heard before. I listen to synth music quite a bit, scarily enough. Isn't my favourite form of music, but I find it very relaxing. > BTW, Did you hear a voice (as in a human voice) in the track anywhere? > There's one there, and it's mine... Nope. And I've listened through it again and I *still* can't hear it. Even though Mike said around 27 seconds, I can't hear it. As I said, I've got these really crappy Phillips headphones. :o Never mind, I've got to get myself a new amp now - and when I do, I'll probably get myself a pair of Sennheissers - either the 590 or 600. Very, very nice headphones! > > Just as NG I think the last minute (and 15 seconds) is the best part > > because new sounds and a new tune are introduced, and the ending is > > quite nice - I just hate the fade outs most do when they don't come up > > with a good ending. > > Yep - me too. I personally like the tail end of it myself. What's funny is > so many people tell me that synth music is emotionless crap. Well, there's > tons of emotion in Passion! Agreed. No, I don't believe it's emotionless crap. I guess you have to listen a bit more. Thing is, with other instruments, you can stress emotion with the instrument - by strumming or hitting (etc) the relevant parts as hard or soft as you like. However, you can't do that with a synth. Any emotion has GOT to be a part of the music - so you just have to listen a bit more to actually hear it. > > Although encoded with 160kbps instead of the standard 128kbps I get the > > impression that MP3 might have 'flattened' the song a bit... > > It did. Always does. That's why I don't like MP3 that much. Mind you, the Xing encoder also has a 20KHz cutoff which makes them sound better - but it suffers in other places because it isn't the best encoder for MP3. I generally don't compress music that I don't need to. I have all my music on CD! > > Certainly not a bad song, and after listening to it several times I had > > the one tune (the one NG also seems to enjoy) in my head for hours, so > > it must have made a bigger impression on me than I first though... > > And that's the entire goal. Creating something that sticks in your head > that doesn't get tiring after repeated listenings. I think that's the goal of any piece of music, ultimately. That - and to tell a story. I can rate music on how good the story in it is. If there's no story, I don't like the song. If there's a good story, I like the song. Sounds strange, but that is the best way to describe the way I deal with it. Also, it explains my distaste for club music, the bunch of sh*te that it is. As a general rule, anyway. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:28:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34009 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF4512.9D6CE7CE@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:08:50 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > function I tested is very simple indeed: > > > > int inc(int i) > > { > > return i++; > > } > > Technically, I shouldn't actually return I being incremented because it's > a post ++. That's what the code does: Surely it should return it incremented? Why? Well, it's a post operation incrementor. There are no operations, so the ++ gets run. And then it returns it. Return isn't an operation! If it said something like: return i + i++; then I think you may have a point. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:29:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34018 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:29:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:29:06 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CF441F.5DD2C94D@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > listen a bit more. Thing is, with other instruments, you can stress emotion > with the instrument - by strumming or hitting (etc) the relevant parts as > hard or soft as you like. However, you can't do that with a synth. Yes you can. You just have to have the right synth and operator to do it. > Any > emotion has GOT to be a part of the music - so you just have to listen a > bit more to actually hear it. It actually just depends upon the "performance". whether or not it's sequenced, you can do all kinds of things to put the right feel into it. Sometimes it's with an expressive voice. The key is putting it in in the first place, which is a step a lot of synth musicians skip. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:35:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34065 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:35:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:35:36 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: <38CF4512.9D6CE7CE@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Technically, I shouldn't actually return I being incremented because it's > > a post ++. That's what the code does: > Surely it should return it incremented? Why? Well, it's a post operation > incrementor. There are no operations, so the ++ gets run. And then it > returns it. Return isn't an operation! No, but the statement is an expression: return i++; Says "return the value of i, then increment i". If you said: if (i++) It would evaluate the "if" before incrementing i. It would not be part of the equation. "if" And "return" are both operations. Expression compilation doesn't care how it's applied. It evaluates the expression before any operation is done. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:38:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34082 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:38:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF46DC.DA34EFAA@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:16:28 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > The voice hits (which are very quick), are at 01:04. It is then > "stacatto'd" and panned back and forth. You heart it again in the same > form at 4:12. It's not the voice that's most prominent - it's panned left > and right. But it's there. Damn crappy headphones! I can't hear it! :o > Hm.... I'm not sure how to take this. ;-) When somone says "really not > bad" it usually means "it doesn't totally suck". ;-) But he's right. It's really not bad. ;) > > >What's funny is > > >so many people tell me that synth music is emotionless crap. Well, > > >tons of emotion in Passion! > > There is threat, peace, joy, ... > > Frustration, anxiety, and hopefulness. Frustration is towards the start of the song and hopefulness at the end? Well, that's my interpretation, anyway! > > My first impression was that there are some lengths with too less > > change, but it's similar with jazz. If there is a jazz song I like on > > As long as it doesn't go on too long... That's my opinion of Jazz. It's okay, so long as it doesn't go on too long. About 5 seconds should do it. ;) > Yeah, everyone seems to like that part of it, too. It's weird how I came > up with it, too. > > The actual original "tune" was the sequence from 3:38 to 3:45. I was > fiddling around with the OB-8 (board above the Matrix 12) one night > really, really late and I had it going through an effects processor with > fairly heavy chorusing and delay. Ah right! My friend likes synths (he was the one who introduced me to Jarre) and likes messing around with different things. He prefers analog stuff to digital, though. > I've put up another one for your listening (hopefully) pleasure... Quite a > bit more synthpoppy, but still sonically interesting. I have some other > really bizarre stuff, too if you're interested. I'll get them at midday today (my 1 hour of Internet time a day). And then I'll let you know what I think. Bet you're really excited now, aren't you? ;) > The former is synthpoppy and has an un-faded ending. It originally was to > have words. The second is a bit more Jarreish. Enjoy! I'll try! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:43:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34099 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:43:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CF46DC.DA34EFAA@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > The voice hits (which are very quick), are at 01:04. It is then > > "stacatto'd" and panned back and forth. You heart it again in the same > > form at 4:12. It's not the voice that's most prominent - it's panned left > > and right. But it's there. > Damn crappy headphones! I can't hear it! :o Damn crappy ears! Throw 'em out! ;-) > > Hm.... I'm not sure how to take this. ;-) When somone says "really not > > bad" it usually means "it doesn't totally suck". ;-) > But he's right. It's really not bad. ;) So does that mean you like it or not? > > Frustration, anxiety, and hopefulness. > Frustration is towards the start of the song and hopefulness at the end? > Well, that's my interpretation, anyway! Close... a bit of hopeful feeling followed by a letdown, hopeful, letdown, rock bottom, severe anxiety followed by renewed hopefulness. How's that? ;-) > > The actual original "tune" was the sequence from 3:38 to 3:45. I was > > fiddling around with the OB-8 (board above the Matrix 12) one night > > really, really late and I had it going through an effects processor with > > fairly heavy chorusing and delay. > Ah right! My friend likes synths (he was the one who introduced me to > Jarre) and likes messing around with different things. He prefers analog > stuff to digital, though. The OB-8 and Matrix 12 are analog synths. ;-) Most of my boards are. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:50:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34185 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:50:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF4968.B4535D77@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:27:20 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I disagree with "lousy musicality". Although some of his earlier stuff was, > > his modern stuff isn't. I can MP3 up one of his modern tracks of his new > > album (Metamorphoses, released last month) if you don't believe me. ;) > > Anything up to the early 90's was weak musically. Upload an MP3 of his > latest stuff. Sure thing, but it'll have to be tomorrow now - I'll do it tonight when I get home from work. > > > It's still lossy, though. > > Of course. But the difference is that you can't tell anymore. > > Uh, do you mean MP3s or the 5.1 channels on DVD? It's obviously less > important with DVDs and movies in general, but you absolutely, positively > *CAN* tell a difference. Only on really high-end stuff. > Most notably muted high end, grainy hi hats, squished dynamic range, and > attack times on things get smeared. Of course, techno and highly detailed > music are affected the most (my music, for example). If you don't believe > me, download the MP3 of my tunes and the wave files. There's a *HUGE* > amount of detail lost at 160Kbps. > > If you can't hear it, I'm sorry, but you're deaf. Of course I can hear it! Even me, with these crappy headphones, can hear the difference with MP3 and the original. But I'm talking about the sound compression sort of used on DVDs. You see... you can compress a stereo file with it and not a 5 channel file. I agree that you can tell the difference when doing surround. But because there is more bitrate available when compressing a stereo file, you can't tell the difference - or you can, but you REALLY have to listen - HARD. I can't remember the name of the compressor now because I'm not really into sound compression. But I'll e-mail another one of my friends who uses it fairly regularly and I'll find out where you can download it from. Then you can try it out for yourself and see what I mean. You'll always (I think!) be able to tell the difference between a lossy compression and something with no loss. But at least they're getting to the point where it's really difficult - and not immediately obvious, like it is with MP3. Of course, it's only people who WANT the detail like yourself - or me - who notice. Heh, it's can only be people like me who spend a day trying out different algorithms to see which is the best! :)) > Well, I have a pair of Kef series 107/2's that cost $7500/US. Does that > count? ;-) I'm driving it with a Denon AVR-5600 receiver and a Denon > DCD-2500. Nice setup. You've obviously saved up there! I've only got a Cambridge Audio A2 amp driving JPW ML-310s. Mind you, they're in the UK at the moment - so I'll be buying a new HiFi over here! > The difference is instantly noticeable. Remember that I've got over a > decade's worth of studio production experience and I'm trained to listen > to imperfections, which jump out at me - not because I'm looking for them, > but because I've trained myself to hear these flaws in the studio. I've also been trained. Well, maybe not to the same finesse as you, but I certainly believe I'm good enough. Hell, if I can hear 5Hz difference between tones easily, then I believe I can do something similar here... > I'm sure that if I pointed out the differences you'd NEVER be able to not > hear them. If you A/B the wav file and the MP3 file, you'll notice a nasty > amount of difference. Absolutely. But I wasn't talking about MP3! > Really, though, the MP3 file format is popular only because of bandwidth > limitations of most people's downloads. In 5 years, MP3 won't need to > exist for most of the world. Wav files (or uncompressed) are better > quality and the need for compressing things will be diminished. We'll also see what the MPEG-2 sounds like. It's meant to sound really nice (and detailed), but I haven't had a chance to check that out yet... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:52:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34200 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:52:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF4AE4.2E464AE1@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:33:40 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > listen a bit more. Thing is, with other instruments, you can stress emotion > > with the instrument - by strumming or hitting (etc) the relevant parts as > > hard or soft as you like. However, you can't do that with a synth. > > Yes you can. You just have to have the right synth and operator to do it. So you can hit (hard) a note and hold it for 2 seconds or just press it and hold it for 2 seconds and you can tell the difference between them? On a piano, for instance, you can tell whether it was hit or just pressed. But unless the synth has analog so you can tell how far down you've pressed a key, you can't do this. You can use other methods, I won't deny. I was just saying that the normal way of detecting emotion cannot be done with a synth. Not unless there's some amazing synths I haven't heard of before... :o > > Any > > emotion has GOT to be a part of the music - so you just have to listen a > > bit more to actually hear it. > > It actually just depends upon the "performance". whether or not it's > sequenced, you can do all kinds of things to put the right feel into it. > Sometimes it's with an expressive voice. The key is putting it in in the > first place, which is a step a lot of synth musicians skip. Agreed. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 00:56:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34221 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:56:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF4BB3.95729532@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:37:07 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > No, but the statement is an expression: > > return i++; > > Says "return the value of i, then increment i". If you said: > > if (i++) > > It would evaluate the "if" before incrementing i. It would not be part of > the equation. "if" And "return" are both operations. Expression > compilation doesn't care how it's applied. It evaluates the expression > before any operation is done. Not by my understanding of how C compilers operate, but I could be wrong. I was quite under the impression that operations were dealt with before expressions - or before functions. The ++ operator just waits until all other operations have occurred and then does it. And then the functions and statements get executed. Certainly what I understood from Compiler Technology... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 01:01:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34262 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:01:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:01:49 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CF4AE4.2E464AE1@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > with the instrument - by strumming or hitting (etc) the relevant parts as > > > hard or soft as you like. However, you can't do that with a synth. > > Yes you can. You just have to have the right synth and operator to do it. > So you can hit (hard) a note and hold it for 2 seconds or just press it and > hold it for 2 seconds and you can tell the difference between them? It depends upon the voice and the synth, but absolutely, yes. Synths have several methods of expression on the keyboard/panels: * Aftertouch (pushing harder on the key after it has been pressed) * Velocity sensitive (you know what this is) * Velocity release * Ribbon controller (slidable controller at the base of the keys that run the length of the synth) * Pitch bend (alters pitch or other aspect of the sound) * Mod wheel (modulation of an aspect of the sound) * LFO Trigger (low frequency oscillator triggers an aspect of the sound) Any synth worth its weight or worth bothering with have the first 3 and the mod wheel/pitch bend. Even basic synths have this. More advanced ones have ribbon controllers and LFO triggers. If a given patch is set up to have the aftertouch modify the oscillator frequency, pressing harder will raise (or lower) it. You can also have it change the filter point, increase resonance, etc... The synthesizer is a configurable instrument and you can make it modify just about any aspect of the sound being generated. > You can use other methods, I won't deny. I was just saying that the normal > way of detecting emotion cannot be done with a synth. Not unless there's > some amazing synths I haven't heard of before... :o You just don't know enough about synths. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 01:02:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34273 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:02:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF4D73.BC1E157@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:44:35 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Damn crappy headphones! I can't hear it! :o > > Damn crappy ears! Throw 'em out! ;-) But then I'd have nothing to listen to at work - and I think they'd get annoyed if I use the internal speaker... :)) > > But he's right. It's really not bad. ;) > > So does that mean you like it or not? I like it, actually. I'm quite looking forward to the others! I've heard a lot of crap synth music, but I wouldn't place this amongst it. Certainly not! > > Frustration is towards the start of the song and hopefulness at the end? > > Well, that's my interpretation, anyway! > > Close... a bit of hopeful feeling followed by a letdown, hopeful, letdown, > rock bottom, severe anxiety followed by renewed hopefulness. How's that? > ;-) I like my description - it's shorter to type. :) > > Ah right! My friend likes synths (he was the one who introduced me to > > Jarre) and likes messing around with different things. He prefers analog > > stuff to digital, though. > > The OB-8 and Matrix 12 are analog synths. ;-) Most of my boards are. I know, actually. It just shows - I *do* listen to him sometimes. He just goes on about how much he hates digital stuff and analog stuff is better. Whether he's right or not (which I think he is, although digital has its place), I just wish he'd shut up about it! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 01:08:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34291 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:08:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:08:09 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CF4D73.BC1E157@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > The OB-8 and Matrix 12 are analog synths. ;-) Most of my boards are. > I know, actually. It just shows - I *do* listen to him sometimes. He just > goes on about how much he hates digital stuff and analog stuff is better. > Whether he's right or not (which I think he is, although digital has its > place), I just wish he'd shut up about it! :) Well, the root word of "analog" is "anal". ;-) He's an analog Nazi. I used to think this way about 6 years ago, but I've got many digital synths, too. I even have an analog modeling synth (Roland JP-8000) that does an incredible job of modeling analog synths. It's a cross between the Jupiter 8 and Jupiter 6. When I first tried it out, I thought it sucked. the second time, I thought it was promising. The third time I bought it. The attractiveness of an analog synth is the filters and bizarre ways things can be interconnected which can't always be done with digital synths (though any modern synth is really, really configurable). Each synth has its own charm, where digital ones tend to be a bit sterile. Though, synths released in the last few years don't suffer from being sterile. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 01:09:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34300 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF4EB0.A76062A3@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:49:52 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: <38CF4BB3.95729532@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Not by my understanding of how C compilers operate, but I could be wrong. I > was quite under the impression that operations were dealt with before > expressions - or before functions. The ++ operator just waits until all > other operations have occurred and then does it. And then the functions and > statements get executed. I just want to change what I said about functions. A function is an operation, so the i++ gets incremented after any functions. Just before someone else says it. ;) Things you remember, eh? :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 01:13:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34316 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:13:34 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: <38CF4EB0.A76062A3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Not by my understanding of how C compilers operate, but I could be wrong. I > > was quite under the impression that operations were dealt with before > > expressions - or before functions. The ++ operator just waits until all > > other operations have occurred and then does it. And then the functions and > > statements get executed. > I just want to change what I said about functions. A function is an > operation, so the i++ gets incremented after any functions. Just before > someone else says it. ;) But in the case of an evaluation operation (this includes assignments and that's what a return really is), the post increments will occur *AFTER* the operation occurs. This is how every compiler I've used acts (all claiming to be ANSI, and even though GCC sucks at optimization, it's fairly ANSI anal). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 03:00:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA34678 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 03:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF686D.1002A4D2@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:39:41 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > But in the case of an evaluation operation (this includes assignments and > that's what a return really is), the post increments will occur *AFTER* > the operation occurs. This is how every compiler I've used acts (all > claiming to be ANSI, and even though GCC sucks at optimization, it's > fairly ANSI anal). Hmm. I'm now thinking that you're right. It depends on how other compilers act. Do they act the same or differently? According to the Watcom ASM, it appears they act the same. Maybe "return" is a special case? I don't know, I haven't (by choice) read the ANSI standard for it. :) BTW, what do you think the best optimiser is? Watcom is bad at FPU optimisations, but good at everything else. Codewarrior is meant to be good, but I've never used it. VC6 is now pretty good. But best is meant to be the Intel compiler. Is that what you've found? I'd be interested in hearing about your findings. I've got Watcom 10.5, but I never found Watcom 11. Ah well. I've got VC6 now and I'm pretty happy with it. I've gotten used to the IDE now, anyway! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 05:32:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA34974 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF8C2F.866AA75B@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:12:15 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > So you can hit (hard) a note and hold it for 2 seconds or just press it and > > hold it for 2 seconds and you can tell the difference between them? > > It depends upon the voice and the synth, but absolutely, yes. Yes? Oh... :o > * Aftertouch (pushing harder on the key after it has been pressed) > * Velocity sensitive (you know what this is) Of course. Ah, I didn't know this was possible. In that case, I retract what I said. :) > * Ribbon controller (slidable controller at the base of the keys that run > the length of the synth) > * Pitch bend (alters pitch or other aspect of the sound) > * Mod wheel (modulation of an aspect of the sound) > * LFO Trigger (low frequency oscillator triggers an aspect of the sound) But these are different. I have of course seen many with the mod wheels, but I don't know about any of the others in the list. > If a given patch is set up to have the aftertouch modify the oscillator > frequency, pressing harder will raise (or lower) it. You can also have it > change the filter point, increase resonance, etc... The synthesizer is a > configurable instrument and you can make it modify just about any aspect > of the sound being generated. Okay, I didn't know that. > > You can use other methods, I won't deny. I was just saying that the normal > > way of detecting emotion cannot be done with a synth. Not unless there's > > some amazing synths I haven't heard of before... :o > > You just don't know enough about synths. ;-) Obviously not! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 05:51:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA35000 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:51:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF90D7.E5D45510@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:32:07 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Well, the root word of "analog" is "anal". ;-) Heh. :) > The attractiveness of an analog synth is the filters and bizarre ways > things can be interconnected which can't always be done with digital > synths (though any modern synth is really, really configurable). Each > synth has its own charm, where digital ones tend to be a bit sterile. > Though, synths released in the last few years don't suffer from being > sterile. Which is a good thing. Anyway, that compression thing I was on about. It's called "Sound Forge SoftEncode" and it's not free. :o But I'm sure you could find it on AltaVista - if that sort of thing is your bag. ;) The format is AC-3 and it's superb at 192kbps. My friend also says that AAC will beat even AC-3 quite comfortably, but the encoders that can do this aren't in the public domain as of yet. Try encoding something through AC-3 and comparing it to the original - but you've GOT to play it through the same DAC. I agree that AC-3 in 5.1 mode isn't great, but just try it in stereo mode! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:25:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35071 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:25:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:25:57 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >First and foremost, remember that GCC generates *HORRIBLE* x86 code. It >might do fine for RISC based architectures It's the compiler distributed with x86 BeOS and I'm not sure if there is another one. PPC BeOS uses the Metrowerks compiler I think. For ARM it doesn't produce very good code as well, since it doesn't know how to handle the predicated instructions. >Secondly, don't get used to AT&T verbose, backwards-assed syntax. It makes >things a bitch to read. For example: > movl %esp, %ebp Yeah, it's a bit confusing to have the x86 assembly the other way round, but I didn't have much problems with it as 68K works that way. >The "l" on the mov instruction isn't necessary because esp and ebp by >their very definition are long. There is some redundancy, maybe needed by the assembler. >And secondly, it should be "mov ebp, esp", >as in ebp=esp, not the other way around. It also uses the Unix style register names with the percentage sign in the beginning. >Gas is universally laughed as as an assembler. Use NASM instead. It >doesn't used screwed up, verbose syntax. I indeed have NASM for BeOS, but I only wanted to see what code the compiler produces. >Lastly, GCC generates code using stack calling conventions, which by its >very nature is slower than register calls. I noticed that the argument is referenced on the procedure frame, which surprised me as you told me some time ago that the first four arguments would be passed in the registers. >Technically, I shouldn't actually return I being incremented because it's >a post ++. Oops, I guess it was too early in the morning... I wonder why I don't get a warning that the result of the operation is tossed away, as it is unless the variable would be static. >>That's what the code does: >> pushl %ebp >> movl %esp,%ebp >> movl 8(%ebp),%eax ; eax=[ebp+8] >> incl 8(%ebp) ; Increments the value on the stack This should be "inc eax"... >> movl %eax,%eax ; Braindead Nice NOP ;-) >> But with the option -O1 GCC seems to "overoptimise": >> pushl %ebp >> movl %esp,%ebp >> movl 8(%ebp),%eax >> movl %ebp,%esp >> popl %ebp >> ret >Nope. It's right. The increment happens after the return happens. Since >it's incrementing a stack variable that is only valid during the >procedure, it gets eliminated. This is actually correct. Yeah, you are right but the compiler should still produce a warning, even -Wall doesn't help. >Here's what Watcom produces: > 0000 c3 inc_ ret Bye bye ;-) >Perhaps you meant to: >int inc(int i) >{ > return ++i; >} Yeah, that's what I meant. I use the preincrement so seldom that I forget to use it when I should do... >If so, here's what Watcom produces: > 0000 40 inc_ inc eax > 0001 c3 ret That's what I would have expected. >This is default optimization in Watcom. Even though this version of the >compiler is now 5 years old, it still blows the doors off GCC and any >other compiler for the x86 platform. I heard lots of good things about the Watcom compiler. >I've done case studies of the others if you're interested. I noticed that most emulator programmers either use Watcom or DJGPP. But since the letter is a modified GCC I guess it's code quality isn't that good. How about the Borland compiler? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:26:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35082 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:26:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:32:20 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ops, I didn't see this ... Michel has found a really weird example. Michel is a character created by the Swedish author Astrid Lindgren. He's a boy who plays lots of tricks. Only my mother sometimes calls that way, but normally I'm called Michael, Michi by some German friends, and Mike by some English friends. No one uses my second name... But I guess it was only a typo... >OK. I have thought something. You say you have 'zillions' (10^ 10000000000.....0 >;) new ideas. I don't have so many ideas ;) but perhaps I will think some. Why >not do a 'week subject' and discuss about it? Nice idea. So what shall be the topic for next week? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:26:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35091 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:26:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:34:38 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I didn't use an FTP program to get it - I'm behind a proxy/firewall. Yuk, >no regular FTP. I've got to use *shudder* Netscape! Aaarggghh! Tools like Gozilla or wget should also work through a proxy/firewall when configured correctly. I use both and it works. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:26:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35102 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:36:34 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Never mind, I've got to get myself a new amp now - and when I do, I'll >probably get myself a pair of Sennheissers - either the 590 or 600. Very, >very nice headphones! I have Sennheisser HD540 connected to my NAD 314 - yes, I have English hi-fi equipment. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:26:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35114 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:26:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:50:28 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The voice hits (which are very quick), are at 01:04. It is then >"stacatto'd" and panned back and forth. You heart it again in the same >form at 4:12. It's not the voice that's most prominent - it's panned left >and right. But it's there. I wouldn't identfy that as a voice... >> >Yep - me too. I personally like the tail end of it myself. >> Yeah it's really not bad. >Hm.... I'm not sure how to take this. ;-) When somone says "really not >bad" it usually means "it doesn't totally suck". ;-) Hmm, I think that's another difference between Britsh and American English. From what I know "not bad" is some kind of understatement and means very good. It certainly doesn't have the meaning of the German "nicht schlecht", which would be the literal translation. It seems that it doesn't have this ideomatic character in American English as well. Thus, if I say "really not bad" it has about the same meaning as "close to perfect". I hope NG corrects me if I should be wrong... [jazz] >As long as it doesn't go on too long... In jazz you often have much more variation than noticed on first hearing. >Yeah, everyone seems to like that part of it, too. It's weird how I came >up with it, too. I wish it would last a bit longer ;-) >Here's two more tracks if you get bored: >ftp://mp3:gimmegoa@archive.synthcom.com/mp3s/Unsorted/artinmo.mp3 >ftp://mp3:gimmegoa@archive.synthcom.com/mp3s/Unsorted/transist.mp3 >The former is synthpoppy and has an un-faded ending. It originally was to >have words. The second is a bit more Jarreish. Enjoy! I'll download these later today, since German telephone fees are rather expensive between 9 AM and 6 PM :-( Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:26:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35132 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:26:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:58:32 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >That's my opinion of Jazz. It's okay, so long as it doesn't go on too long. >About 5 seconds should do it. ;) Ignorants! Actually I thought the same a few years ago, but now most music just sounds like primitive crap when compared to jazz. I know that a song doesn't have to be complicated to be good and I know some ingenious primitve songs but those are rare. BTW, I don't have much of the old jazz stuff (bebop, dixie, swing,...) but more modern stuff (often with synths and other electric instruments) also mixed with fusion and funk. IMHO jazz has more styles than rock, so it's very likely that you don't know what I mean when I say "jazz"... >I'll try! :) To quote Yoda: "There is no try!" ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:27:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35141 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:27:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:08:53 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Well, the root word of "analog" is "anal". ;-) Hehe. And the root of digital is really the finger... >He's an analog Nazi. I guess you have to explain to me your understanding of the word "Nazi", since I won't use it in that context. I'm glad when I don't have to use it anyway, as in Germany this only refers to a group of people who think they are super humans and justify their atrocities that way... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:54:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35260 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:54:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF9F94.951E3123@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:35:00 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I didn't use an FTP program to get it - I'm behind a proxy/firewall. > Yuk, > >no regular FTP. I've got to use *shudder* Netscape! Aaarggghh! > > Tools like Gozilla or wget should also work through a proxy/firewall > when configured correctly. I use both and it works. I'm betting you're not using Solaris, though. :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 06:56:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35283 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CF9FEB.99874EEB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:36:27 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Never mind, I've got to get myself a new amp now - and when I do, I'll > >probably get myself a pair of Sennheissers - either the 590 or 600. > Very, > >very nice headphones! > > I have Sennheisser HD540 connected to my NAD 314 - yes, I have English > hi-fi equipment. Well done! ;) I'm not keen on the 540s. Pretty nice sound, but they hurt my ears a bit. That's why I like the 565s and above - but especially the 580, 590 and 600 models. Thing is, you pay the price for the quality and comfort... :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:02:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35350 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:02:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFA10D.65819873@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:41:17 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Hmm, I think that's another difference between Britsh and American > English. From what I know "not bad" is some kind of understatement and > means very good. It certainly doesn't have the meaning of the German > "nicht schlecht", which would be the literal translation. It seems that > it doesn't have this ideomatic character in American English as well. > Thus, if I say "really not bad" it has about the same meaning as "close > to perfect". > I hope NG corrects me if I should be wrong... Hmm. Well, "not bad" depends on how you say it. It means that it isn't bad, but isn't necessarily good - or it can mean it's good, but you don't want to say that. So when you say it's "really not bad" I'd read that as meaning "it's not bad, but it's not brilliant either. Fairly good, though". That's the only problem with English, meanings can change depending on how you say them. That's the one thing against e-mail. That's why I use so many smilies - it's the only way people know whether I mean something or not! :o > I wish it would last a bit longer ;-) You could loop that bit. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:05:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35364 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFA1A4.1C548CED@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:43:48 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >That's my opinion of Jazz. It's okay, so long as it doesn't go on too > long. > >About 5 seconds should do it. ;) > > Ignorants! No, I just have musical taste. ;) I don't mind Jazz. I just... don't like it too much either. There are some types of music I can't stand. Jazz isn't one of them - but Techno is. > BTW, I don't have much of the old jazz stuff (bebop, dixie, swing,...) > but more modern stuff (often with synths and other electric > instruments) also mixed with fusion and funk. IMHO jazz has more styles > than rock, so it's very likely that you don't know what I mean when I > say "jazz"... Jazz has loads of styles - it depends on which musician gets different notes wrong. ;) > >I'll try! :) > > To quote Yoda: "There is no try!" ;-) Ever tried lighting a match on a bar of soap? The one thing that puzzles me about Yoda is that he's meant to be hundreds of years old - yet he STILL can't speak properly! What's going on there? :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:08:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35386 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:08:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFA282.44F4E4ED@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:47:30 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >He's an analog Nazi. > > I guess you have to explain to me your understanding of the word > "Nazi", since I won't use it in that context. I'm glad when I don't > have to use it anyway, as in Germany this only refers to a group of > people who think they are super humans and justify their atrocities > that way... In NB's terms, he means that it's a person who stands for one thing and one try out a different way or method of doing something - so in this case, he means that the guy only wants to try analog and not digital devices... There are Nazi's (in your terms) everywhere. In Britain, they're called the BFL/EFL meaning British/English Front Line. Nearly all of them are white shaved head twats. I *hate* racism with a passion. The worst thing is that I got approached by a Nazi only 5 or 6 weeks ago at a U-Bahn (underground station) - I've got blonde hair and blue eyes - it's the only reason I can see that he approached me. He wanted to join me in his army to "kill the Islamic people who are killing all the Germans". Stupid, stupid, stupid... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:20:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35437 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:56:58 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'm betting you're not using Solaris, though. :-/ Nope, Win98 and BeOS (and WinNT at work), but wget should be available for every Unix system. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:20:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35438 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:03:54 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Well done! ;) Yeah, I like the simplicity and robustness of NAD. My Technics CD player (which I still have) has much more functions than my NAD514, but I used only very few of these. I think the only thing I really miss is the peak search, but even that didn't always find the highest peak of a song. >I'm not keen on the 540s. Pretty nice sound, but they hurt my ears a bit. >That's why I like the 565s and above - but especially the 580, 590 and 600 >models. Thing is, you pay the price for the quality and comfort... :-/ Sure. It was a birthday present, so I won't complain, but I might buy a better one someday... BTW, did you know that Sennheisser cables include kevlar (the material which is also used in bullet proof vests)? >That's the only problem with English, meanings can change depending on how >you say them. That's the one thing against e-mail. That's why I use so many >smilies - it's the only way people know whether I mean something or not! :o I guess every language has that problem, and I tend to use some irony from time to time, which might not be understood without smilies... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:36:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35503 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:36:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:17:34 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No, I just have musical taste. ;) Even the wrong taste is a taste ;-) Actually there is no objective way to discuss about tastes anyway... >I don't mind Jazz. I just... don't like it too much either. There are some >types of music I can't stand. Jazz isn't one of them - but Techno is. Yeah, I don't like techno, rap, dancefloor, and heavy metal, but there might be some exceptions. >Jazz has loads of styles - it depends on which musician gets different >notes wrong. ;) Hehe, then you have great jazz potential with your violin ;-) >Ever tried lighting a match on a bar of soap? Nope. I know it doesn't work so I won't do it ;-) >The one thing that puzzles me about Yoda is that he's meant to be hundreds >of years old - yet he STILL can't speak properly! What's going on there? >:)) Well, there are many people who emigrated to the US and still have problems with the language (either grammar or pronunciation or both), because they are too old to really learn a new language, just take Henry Kissinger as an example. For Yoda it might be that he spoke his own language for 500 years and then had to learn Basic (the common Star Wars language) and wasn't able to adapt it correctly in his last 400 years. What strikes me more is that all peoples in Star Trek seem to speak English... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:37:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35512 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:37:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:21:34 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >In NB's terms, he means that it's a person who stands for one thing and one >try out a different way or method of doing something - so in this case, he >means that the guy only wants to try analog and not digital devices... So Nazi stands for "single minded"? But I think on the Retrocade page Neil described himself as a "performance Nazi"... >There are Nazi's (in your terms) everywhere. In Britain, they're called the >BFL/EFL meaning British/English Front Line. Nearly all of them are white >shaved head twats. I *hate* racism with a passion. Tell me about it, I have to live with the knowledge that Germany created these guys! BTW, those guys you describe are called "Skinheads" in Germany and they are not necessarily Nazis, although most are. >The worst thing is that I got approached by a Nazi only 5 or 6 weeks ago at >a U-Bahn (underground station) - I've got blonde hair and blue eyes - it's >the only reason I can see that he approached me. He wanted to join me in >his army to "kill the Islamic people who are killing all the Germans". >Stupid, stupid, stupid... And these braindeads often even claim that no Jews were killed in the KZs! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:46:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35544 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFABB4.1E9F60AD@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:26:44 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I'm betting you're not using Solaris, though. :-/ > > Nope, Win98 and BeOS (and WinNT at work), but wget should be available > for every Unix system. I'll have to look for it then. Mind you, I still have the 1hr day Internet problem! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 07:46:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35553 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFAB86.BA2D03F3@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:25:58 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Yeah, I like the simplicity and robustness of NAD. My Technics CD > player (which I still have) has much more functions than my NAD514, but > I used only very few of these. > I think the only thing I really miss is the peak search, but even that > didn't always find the highest peak of a song. My CD Player at home is a Marantz CD-48. Very nice player. Not the best in the world, but the best in its class. To be fair, so are my speakers. It's just that the class isn't too great! :) I have a peak search as well, though I never had any problems. But then, I didn't use it too much! :o > >I'm not keen on the 540s. Pretty nice sound, but they hurt my ears a > bit. > >That's why I like the 565s and above - but especially the 580, 590 and > 600 > >models. Thing is, you pay the price for the quality and comfort... :-/ > > Sure. It was a birthday present, so I won't complain, but I might buy a > better one someday... Very nice birthday present. They're nice headphones - they're just not for me. :) > BTW, did you know that Sennheisser cables include kevlar (the material > which is also used in bullet proof vests)? I didn't know that, but I'd guess it's for strength and flexibility. Maybe. :) > >That's the only problem with English, meanings can change depending on > how > >you say them. That's the one thing against e-mail. That's why I use so > many > >smilies - it's the only way people know whether I mean something or > not! :o > > I guess every language has that problem, and I tend to use some irony > from time to time, which might not be understood without smilies... I guess so, too - but I think the English speaking people use more sarcasm than other countries (I know that the French find the idea of sarcasm and irony quite difficult!) - but I think the Germans are probably the same in this respect. I know that the humour level is pretty similar between Britain and Germany. It's just that you have cable, so you get more inane (poor) drivel (erm... things) than we do! Mind you, cable is getting bigger in Britain, so maybe we have the same! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 08:02:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35594 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFAE7F.4F09170A@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:38:39 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >No, I just have musical taste. ;) > > Even the wrong taste is a taste ;-) But an evil and bitter one. ;) > Actually there is no objective way to discuss about tastes anyway... I can discuss a song objectively, whether I like it or not. You can't do that for a whole musical style anyway. I mean, I don't like Techno. But there are a couple of songs that I don't mind listening to. > >I don't mind Jazz. I just... don't like it too much either. There are > some > >types of music I can't stand. Jazz isn't one of them - but Techno is. > > Yeah, I don't like techno, rap, dancefloor, and heavy metal, but there > might be some exceptions. I like just about all music styles. I don't like Techno too much and I don't see rap as being music at all. Not sure what you mean by "dancefloor" but I do like Heavy Metal - but the old style and not the current American trash. > >Jazz has loads of styles - it depends on which musician gets different > >notes wrong. ;) > > Hehe, then you have great jazz potential with your violin ;-) Yes, but I've learned how to play it while not playing wrong notes. ;) > >Ever tried lighting a match on a bar of soap? > > Nope. I know it doesn't work so I won't do it ;-) But it could be special soap... ;) > >The one thing that puzzles me about Yoda is that he's meant to be > hundreds > >of years old - yet he STILL can't speak properly! What's going on > there? > >:)) > > Well, there are many people who emigrated to the US and still have > problems with the language (either grammar or pronunciation or both), > because they are too old to really learn a new language, just take > Henry Kissinger as an example. > For Yoda it might be that he spoke his own language for 500 years and > then had to learn Basic (the common Star Wars language) and wasn't able > to adapt it correctly in his last 400 years. Yes, maybe. I'm scared now! I meant that as a joke and didn't expect an answer! ;) > What strikes me more is that all peoples in Star Trek seem to speak > English... I actually know the answer to this one! Haha! Even away teams have a translator that... well, translates. In the original Star Trek it used to be a box they'd have to carry. In ST:TNG and later, they'd improved the technology so that it was an implant. In DS9, there was one episode where the translator didn't know how to translate a language and so they couldn't communicate - but the translator was intelligent and worked it out slowly. Do you know the worrying thing? I know all of this - and I'm not a trekkie! My god! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 08:04:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35611 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New mul8 list Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:39:48 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'll have to look for it then. Mind you, I still have the 1hr day Internet >problem! :o Wget should be able to resume when the server supports it. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 08:04:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35618 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:04:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:49:30 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >My CD Player at home is a Marantz CD-48. Very nice player. Not the best in >the world, but the best in its class. Marantz amplifiers are said to be quite good. >To be fair, so are my speakers. It's >just that the class isn't too great! :) My speakers (Dynaudio) are quite cheap but they have a great sound for all styles of music and when compared to much more expensive T&A speakers only the basses were better. >I have a peak search as well, though I never had any problems. But then, I >didn't use it too much! :o Yeah, I'd only use it when I copy songs to cassette, but I'm glad that I bought the cheaper cassette deck (NAD613 instead of 614) because I don't use it that often. >I didn't know that, but I'd guess it's for strength and flexibility. Maybe. >:) Yeah, the cable should be stronger, but I don't want to test it ;-) >I guess so, too - but I think the English speaking people use more sarcasm >than other countries (I know that the French find the idea of sarcasm and >irony quite difficult!) - but I think the Germans are probably the same in >this respect. I know that the humour level is pretty similar between >Britain and Germany. Certain forms of British black humour are hard for me to understand, but I have several British pen (or key?) pals and didn't find any great problems one either side. >It's just that you have cable, so you get more inane >(poor) drivel (erm... things) than we do! Mind you, cable is getting bigger >in Britain, so maybe we have the same! We don't have cable, we have satellite, but I know what you mean... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 08:14:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35642 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:14:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFB1CF.DFF04509@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:52:47 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > So Nazi stands for "single minded"? I suppose so, yes. > But I think on the Retrocade page Neil described himself as a > "performance Nazi"... So he's single minded on performance, then... > > I *hate* racism with a passion. > > Tell me about it, I have to live with the knowledge that Germany > created these guys! Hmm. I think Poland created those guys. It all comes down to Hitler, really - and he was Polish. Or... was he Austrian? If so, then Austia created those guys. I can't remember my history! :-/ > BTW, those guys you describe are called "Skinheads" in Germany and they > are not necessarily Nazis, although most are. They're called skinheads by us too, but I wasn't sure if you'd understand. Yes, not all are Nazis. But most are. > And these braindeads often even claim that no Jews were killed in the > KZs! WTF?! It makes me sick, it really does. Thing was, he was telling me how once the Islamic people had killed all the Germans, they'd start on the French and the British and how I should join him now to protect my country. It was all I could do not to kill him myself... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 08:32:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35708 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:32:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFB627.8EBCF0FB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:11:19 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Marantz amplifiers are said to be quite good. Yes, but they're not the rated amps to go for. NAD make some good amps. So do Kenwood - and especially Arcam (another British company!). > >To be fair, so are my speakers. It's > >just that the class isn't too great! :) > > My speakers (Dynaudio) are quite cheap but they have a great sound for > all styles of music and when compared to much more expensive T&A > speakers only the basses were better. Same here. JPW ML-310s. Nothing is better in their class - they handle all types of music. > Yeah, I'd only use it when I copy songs to cassette, but I'm glad that > I bought the cheaper cassette deck (NAD613 instead of 614) because I > don't use it that often. I never use cassettes. Never. Not in ages... > >I didn't know that, but I'd guess it's for strength and flexibility. > Maybe. > >:) > > Yeah, the cable should be stronger, but I don't want to test it ;-) Oh, go on. You're no fun. ;) > >I guess so, too - but I think the English speaking people use more > sarcasm > >than other countries (I know that the French find the idea of sarcasm > and > >irony quite difficult!) - but I think the Germans are probably the > same in > >this respect. I know that the humour level is pretty similar between > >Britain and Germany. > > Certain forms of British black humour are hard for me to understand, > but I have several British pen (or key?) pals and didn't find any great > problems one either side. Well, if you can watch Monty Python and get the humour, you share the same humour. Guaranteed. There's not a lot more British than that. Although it's strange humour too... > >It's just that you have cable, so you get more inane > >(poor) drivel (erm... things) than we do! Mind you, cable is getting > bigger > >in Britain, so maybe we have the same! > > We don't have cable, we have satellite, but I know what you mean... Oh yes you do - I've got it in my apartment! ;p Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 08:33:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35718 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:18:25 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >But an evil and bitter one. ;) "Ich bin der Geist, der stets verneint! Und das mit Recht; denn alles, was entsteht, Ist wert, dass es zugrunde geht; Drum besser waer's, dass nichts entstuende. So ist denn alles, was ihr Suende, Zerstoerung, kurz, das Boese nennt, Meineigentliches Element." Sorry, I had to quote a part of what is probably the best piece of German literature. You can guess what it is, or ask your German friends. >I can discuss a song objectively, whether I like it or not. You can't do >that for a whole musical style anyway. I mean, I don't like Techno. But >there are a couple of songs that I don't mind listening to. I guess it's the same for me. Two of my friends once did a song where most of the sounds where originally produced by dolphins (it was a work for the dolphin house in Nuremberg). That song's quite good, but they did one song I even enjoy more. I hope they release it on CD someday... >I like just about all music styles. I don't like Techno too much and I >don't see rap as being music at all. Yeah, I somtimes wonder too how they can claim rap to be music... >Not sure what you mean by "dancefloor" Dancfloor is a superclass of hip-hop styles. >but I do like Heavy Metal - but the old style and not the current American >trash. I don't know the heavy metal scene... >Yes, but I've learned how to play it while not playing wrong notes. ;) Of course, I only said you'd have potential ;-) >But it could be special soap... ;) Made out of white phosphorus? That's cheating! >Yes, maybe. I'm scared now! I meant that as a joke and didn't expect an >answer! ;) Hehe, you have to be careful with whom you speak about Star Wars. I'm a Star Wars freak! I've read close to 40 books and I have about everything of the Star Wars soundtracks: the original CD releases, the 4 CD anthology, the Skywalker Sound recording, and the 2nd Ed releases... >I actually know the answer to this one! Haha! Even away teams have a >translator that... well, translates. In the original Star Trek it used to >be a box they'd have to carry. In ST:TNG and later, they'd improved the >technology so that it was an implant. That explains why they can understand the others, but it doesn't explain why they are understood by the others. I think I saw one episode where there was explaind that at least Humans, Klingons, Vulcans, and Romulans derived from one race... >In DS9, there was one episode where the translator didn't know how to >translate a language and so they couldn't communicate - but the translator >was intelligent and worked it out slowly. I guess it was as good technically explained as how the warp drive or the transporter works... >Do you know the worrying thing? I know all of this - and I'm not a trekkie! >My god! :o I watch it from time to time because I like SF, but I'm certainly not a trekkie. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 08:51:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35780 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:36:43 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >NAD make some good amps. I like mine. >So do Kenwood - and especially Arcam (another British company!). Never heard of Arcam... >I never use cassettes. Never. Not in ages... Neither would I, but it's a good way to exchange music and even my niece can handle these, she's five. >Oh, go on. You're no fun. ;) No, I won't do that! ;-) >Well, if you can watch Monty Python and get the humour, you share the same >humour. Guaranteed. There's not a lot more British than that. Although it's >strange humour too... Yeah, I bet so. Some time ago I had problems, but I need some time to understand a certain English dialect. They don't show these undubbed that often :-( "What you gonna do, bleed on me?" - "OK, it's a draw!" ;-) >Oh yes you do - I've got it in my apartment! ;p I didn't mean we don't have that in Germany. I meant we don't have it at home. >So he's single minded on performance, then... Ah, now I understand... The problem is that Nazi has only one meaning for me, and quite a very negative one! >Hmm. I think Poland created those guys. It all comes down to Hitler, really >- and he was Polish. Or... was he Austrian? If so, then Austia created >those guys. I can't remember my history! :-/ Hitler was from Austria. He attacked Poland first and when the English did their appeasement politics he thought he could go on like that... >> And these braindeads often even claim that no Jews were killed in the >> KZs! >WTF?! It makes me sick, it really does. It doesn't make me sick. I just want to open their heads to see if there is anything else than void. >Thing was, he was telling me how once the Islamic people had killed all the >Germans, they'd start on the French and the British and how I should join >him now to protect my country. Pure braindead! >It was all I could do not to kill him myself... I know what you mean! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 09:38:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA35905 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38CFC63C.2EC71CC6@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:19:56 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >NAD make some good amps. > > I like mine. They can be a little "bright" so it's good to have speakers which are a little relaxed - it smooths the sound to a good effect. If you've got some high-reponse speakers, the quality isn't good because the "brightness" is brought out that shouldn't be there. > >So do Kenwood - and especially Arcam (another British company!). > > Never heard of Arcam... They make the Alpha series. Very nice series indeed. > >I never use cassettes. Never. Not in ages... > > Neither would I, but it's a good way to exchange music and even my > niece can handle these, she's five. Yes, but my 5 year old cousin can handle CDs too. And use a PlayStation. :) No, I see your point. But I don't use them. And it's a good thing too, because I've got no way of playing them at the moment! :)) > >Oh, go on. You're no fun. ;) > > No, I won't do that! ;-) Go on, go abseiling or something. Or tie them to the bumper of one car, and then to the bumper of another car and watch! It'll be fun! ;)) > > Although it's strange humour too... > > Yeah, I bet so. Some time ago I had problems, but I need some time to > understand a certain English dialect. They don't show these undubbed > that often :-( No? Bad for you, good for me. When are they shown? :) > "What you gonna do, bleed on me?" - "OK, it's a draw!" ;-) "Look, you idiot, I've chopped your arm off!" - "'Tis a scratch!" > >Oh yes you do - I've got it in my apartment! ;p > > I didn't mean we don't have that in Germany. I meant we don't have it > at home. Sorry, my fault. > >So he's single minded on performance, then... > > Ah, now I understand... The problem is that Nazi has only one meaning > for me, and quite a very negative one! Well, I suppose that now it has got another meaning. ;) Either way, being any sort of Nazi can be a negative. > >Hmm. I think Poland created those guys. It all comes down to Hitler, > really > >- and he was Polish. Or... was he Austrian? If so, then Austia created > >those guys. I can't remember my history! :-/ > > Hitler was from Austria. He attacked Poland first and when the English > did their appeasement politics he thought he could go on like that... That's right. I couldn't remember - well, not quite. I could remember, but I wasn't sure. So, it's Austria's fault! And the thing is... they're heading that way again. Will they not learn? :-/ > >WTF?! It makes me sick, it really does. > > It doesn't make me sick. I just want to open their heads to see if > there is anything else than void. I think it's a "void* vacant = NULL;" contained inside. That - and sawdust. And lots of air. > >Thing was, he was telling me how once the Islamic people had killed > all the > >Germans, they'd start on the French and the British and how I should > join > >him now to protect my country. > > Pure braindead! Certainly. > >It was all I could do not to kill him myself... > > I know what you mean! Of course, the other 7 people that were with him also persuaded me not to hit him. I can hold my own, but not against 8 people! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 10:13:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA36081 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:13:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:03:52 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Michael Koenig wrote: Just a lurker making some comments. > >The "l" on the mov instruction isn't necessary because esp and ebp by > >their very definition are long. > > There is some redundancy, maybe needed by the assembler. GAS is really, really, REALLY bad at guessing when it comes to opcode sizes. The current theory is that it uses the opcode name, hashes it and the register names, and adds the current phase of the moon to figure it out. In other words, don't let GAS guess. =) > >Technically, I shouldn't actually return I being incremented because > it's > >a post ++. > > Oops, I guess it was too early in the morning... > I wonder why I don't get a warning that the result of the operation is > tossed away, as it is unless the variable would be static. Simple, this is C. C assumes the programmer knows what they are doing =) Would you expect a warning for the code x == y; ? > >Nope. It's right. The increment happens after the return happens. > Since > >it's incrementing a stack variable that is only valid during the > >procedure, it gets eliminated. This is actually correct. > > Yeah, you are right but the compiler should still produce a warning, > even -Wall doesn't help. Nah, it is not an error or abuse of any kind. It is a perfectly well formed statement, that just happens to throw away the results. It is quite similar to a straight i++; line. > I noticed that most emulator programmers either use Watcom or DJGPP. > But since the letter is a modified GCC I guess it's code quality isn't > that good. > How about the Borland compiler? Dunno about Borland, but GCC's code generator is quite odd. At times I've had to spell out the CSE myself to get it to do what was right... > Bye, > M.I.K.e > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 10:30:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA36173 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:30:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:12:25 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >They can be a little "bright" so it's good to have speakers which are a >little relaxed - it smooths the sound to a good effect. If you've got some >high-reponse speakers, the quality isn't good because the "brightness" is >brought out that shouldn't be there. It seems that I have the right speakers then. >Yes, but my 5 year old cousin can handle CDs too. And use a PlayStation. :) I bet my niece could too, we just don't want her to. >Go on, go abseiling or something. Or tie them to the bumper of one car, and >then to the bumper of another car and watch! It'll be fun! ;)) And you want a video of the performance of course... >No? Bad for you, good for me. When are they shown? :) I don't think you really want to watch Monty Python with German dubbing... But I have to admit that it's a good way to learn some language when you know either the original or the dubbed version by heart. It would even work if there won't be so many translation errors... The dubbing of Star Wars: Episode 1 really got on my nerves, as there were lot's of translation errors ("Are you braindead?" was translated as "Hast Du einen Knall?"), the Trade Federation guys spoke with a French accent, and the voices of almost all speakers where more or less emotionless :-( >Sorry, my fault. Mine too. I wasn't precise enough... So how's German TV compared to Britain? BTW, one of the best programmes is the Space Night on the Bavarian channel! >Well, I suppose that now it has got another meaning. ;) I still wouldn't use it... >Either way, being any sort of Nazi can be a negative. True. >That's right. I couldn't remember - well, not quite. I could remember, but >I wasn't sure. So, it's Austria's fault! And the thing is... they're >heading that way again. Will they not learn? :-/ Well, he came from Austria but he became that mighty in Germany... >I think it's a "void* vacant = NULL;" contained inside. That - and sawdust. >And lots of air. Sure, otherwise the head would just implode. >Of course, the other 7 people that were with him also persuaded me not to >hit him. I can hold my own, but not against 8 people! :o That's the problem with these guys, they always come in groups. BTW, there is a good song about such people by Herbert Groenemeyer on his Chaos album called "Die Haerte". This is an example where the lyrics are very important! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 10:42:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA36247 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:42:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:22:06 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Just a lurker making some comments. For how long have you been lurking? Well, seems we have someone new on the list. Just in case you haven't noticed yet: dynarecs are not our only topic, even if the name of the list implies that. So far we also have music and language as subjects, I hope you don't mind. >GAS is really, really, REALLY bad at guessing when it comes to opcode >sizes. The current theory is that it uses the opcode name, hashes it and >the register names, and adds the current phase of the moon to figure it >out. In other words, don't let GAS guess. =) I have NASM for BeOS, but I cannot simply replace GAS with it, or I'd have to adjust GCC to produce different assembly :-( >Simple, this is C. C assumes the programmer knows what they are doing =) >Would you expect a warning for the code >x == y; >? At least a warning would be nice... >Nah, it is not an error or abuse of any kind. It is a perfectly well >formed statement, that just happens to throw away the results. It is quite >similar to a straight i++; line. I'm not saying that it's an error, but with -Wall a warning would be good. Also the "i++;" line would produce a result. >Dunno about Borland, but GCC's code generator is quite odd. At times I've >had to spell out the CSE myself to get it to do what was right... What does CSE stand for? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 12:19:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA36737 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:19:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:09:47 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Michael Koenig wrote: > >Just a lurker making some comments. > > For how long have you been lurking? > Well, seems we have someone new on the list. Just in case you haven't > noticed yet: dynarecs are not our only topic, even if the name of the > list implies that. So far we also have music and language as subjects, > I hope you don't mind. Heh, not at all, been here since the first post, just been too busy to sift through them all. It isn't SWRPG yet though... > I have NASM for BeOS, but I cannot simply replace GAS with it, or I'd > have to adjust GCC to produce different assembly :-( Yes =/ Nyef and Neill Corlett really dislike some of nasm's design goals... the thing about always using the largest size unless told otherwise really annoys them for some reason. > At least a warning would be nice... Heh, this isn't pascal =) > I'm not saying that it's an error, but with -Wall a warning would be > good. Also the "i++;" line would produce a result. Generally the thing is that side effects are ignored when dealing with warnings. return i++; definitely does something, even if the side effect itself does not. Actually, x==y; might generate a warning in newer compilers, as lint has basically been reinstituded into the front end... > >Dunno about Borland, but GCC's code generator is quite odd. At times > I've > >had to spell out the CSE myself to get it to do what was right... > > What does CSE stand for? Common subexpression elimination. Good CSE would result in the same code for 1) acc = decoderlut[*p4 >> 4]; 2) c = *p4 >> 4; acc = decoderlut[c]; 3) c = *p4; acc = decoderlut[c >> 4]; However, with my version of GCC, only 3 is handled in an intelligent fasion... > Bye, > M.I.K.e > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. > John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 13:03:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA36946 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:03:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:03:17 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I have NASM for BeOS, but I cannot simply replace GAS with it, or I'd > > have to adjust GCC to produce different assembly :-( > Yes =/ Nyef and Neill Corlett really dislike some of nasm's design > goals... the thing about always using the largest size unless told > otherwise really annoys them for some reason. They have good reason to be annoyed. There are several shortcuts - "smart" decisions - the assembler can make and doesn't. For example: pushf Generates a 32 bit instruction. "pushf" by its very definition is a 16 bit instruction. The 32 bit equivalent is "pushfd". But NASM treats pushfd and pushf the same. You have to say: ord16 pushf To get the 16 bit version. This isn't obvious when you're working on code until it crashes horribly and you spend hours figuring out that the assembler did something stupid/wrong since it's assumed that the assembler is making good decisions. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 13:12:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA37015 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:12:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:12:46 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >First and foremost, remember that GCC generates *HORRIBLE* x86 code. > >might do fine for RISC based architectures > It's the compiler distributed with x86 BeOS and I'm not sure if there > is another one. PPC BeOS uses the Metrowerks compiler I think. Belugh. Metrowerks. I *HATE* that compiler. My hatred for it goes back a ways.. > >Secondly, don't get used to AT&T verbose, backwards-assed syntax. It > >things a bitch to read. For example: > > movl %esp, %ebp > Yeah, it's a bit confusing to have the x86 assembly the other way > round, but I didn't have much problems with it as 68K works that way. And to everyone who thinks it should be source->dest, then I give them the following argument: a = 5; We should be doing: 5 = a; In C. Right? ;-) > >The "l" on the mov instruction isn't necessary because esp and ebp by > >their very definition are long. > There is some redundancy, maybe needed by the assembler. Shouldn't be. If either argument is 32 bit, it's IMPLIED. > >Lastly, GCC generates code using stack calling conventions, which by > its > >very nature is slower than register calls. > I noticed that the argument is referenced on the procedure frame, which > surprised me as you told me some time ago that the first four arguments > would be passed in the registers. No, what I said was there are two calling convetinos - register calling conventions and stack calling conventions. For register calling conventions the above is true. GCC Is too braindead and simple to be able to do register calling conventions decently. > >Technically, I shouldn't actually return I being incremented because > >a post ++. > Oops, I guess it was too early in the morning... > I wonder why I don't get a warning that the result of the operation is > tossed away, as it is unless the variable would be static. Warnings are arbitrary. They are left up to the compiler implementor. Generally warnings aren't put in if there's no way to shut that specific one off. > >>That's what the code does: > >> pushl %ebp > >> movl %esp,%ebp > >> movl 8(%ebp),%eax ; eax=[ebp+8] > >> incl 8(%ebp) ; Increments the value on the stack > This should be "inc eax"... No, it should be what it is. You're doing i++. i Is defined on the stack, and the returned value will be *BEFORE* the increment. It's the proper operation. > >> movl %eax,%eax ; Braindead > Nice NOP ;-) You'd think it'd be smarter than this. > >Nope. It's right. The increment happens after the return happens. > >it's incrementing a stack variable that is only valid during the > >procedure, it gets eliminated. This is actually correct. > Yeah, you are right but the compiler should still produce a warning, > even -Wall doesn't help. Subjective. There's no rule for warnings in ANSI. > >Here's what Watcom produces: > > 0000 c3 inc_ ret > Bye bye ;-) And if you crank up the optimization to max, it removes the call entirely. > >I've done case studies of the others if you're interested. > I noticed that most emulator programmers either use Watcom or DJGPP. > But since the letter is a modified GCC I guess it's code quality isn't > that good. Right. People use DJGPP because it's free. It generates crap code, but its warnings and error checking are really well done. Watcom generates great code, but its warnings are terrible. > How about the Borland compiler? Not worth bothering with. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 14:40:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA37546 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:40:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:15:48 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Belugh. Metrowerks. I *HATE* that compiler. My hatred for it goes back a >ways.. Any good compilers apart from Watcom? I think ARM use a modified Norcroft, and although it produces better code than GCC it still isn't perfect. I wonder if they'll come up with a decent compiler for Itanium since they'll have the same problem with lots of predicated instructions there. >And to everyone who thinks it should be source->dest, For "move #5, d0" it's quite logical, because you can read it from left to right as "move immediate 5 to register d0", unless you are an Arab of course... >then I give them the following argument: > a = 5; >We should be doing: > 5 = a; >In C. Right? ;-) You don't have "assign #5, a" in assembly... for move see the example above... I agree that in 3 address code the order "Op Rd, Rs1, Rs2" is better than "Op Rs1, Rs2, Rd", because you can think of it as "Rd = Rs1 Op R2". Actually in Itanium assembly you write "Op Rd = Rs1, Rs2". But for 2 address code it mainly matters what you learned first, just like the endianness. I started with 68K and source->dest and big endian is quite normal for me. Someone who started on Intel is likely to prefer dest<-source and little endian... >Shouldn't be. If either argument is 32 bit, it's IMPLIED. Agreed, some assemblers and compilers are just stupid... >No, what I said was there are two calling convetinos - register calling >conventions and stack calling conventions. For register calling >conventions the above is true. GCC Is too braindead and simple to be able >to do register calling conventions decently. Especially in such a primitive function you notice how much better register calling would be... >> >> movl 8(%ebp),%eax ; eax=[ebp+8] >> >> incl 8(%ebp) ; Increments the value on the stack >> This should be "inc eax"... >No, it should be what it is. You're doing i++. i Is defined on the stack, >and the returned value will be *BEFORE* the increment. Erm, I meant it should have been "inc eax" if I had programmed correctly... If you want something to laugh about, here is the code GCC produces for "return ++i;" without optimisation forced: incl 8(%ebp) movl 8(%ebp),%edx movl %edx,%eax >> >> movl %eax,%eax ; Braindead >> Nice NOP ;-) >You'd think it'd be smarter than this. >From my experience with GCC on RISC OS it seems that without any optimisation it always uses the standard procedure frame, eg. all registers are saved and restored no matter how many are used in the procedure. It seems that the GCC for x86 behaves similar... >> >Here's what Watcom produces: >> > 0000 c3 inc_ ret >> Bye bye ;-) >And if you crank up the optimization to max, it removes the call entirely. But only if the definition and the call are in the same file... >Right. People use DJGPP because it's free. It generates crap code, but its >warnings and error checking are really well done. Watcom generates great >code, but its warnings are terrible. You can't have everything... How about LCC? >> How about the Borland compiler? >Not worth bothering with. At least it is free now... I won't even ask what you think of the Microsoft compilers ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 14:40:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA37556 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:40:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:21:17 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com OK, here are some reactions: Artinmo is quite nice, I liked it on the first run. I hope this doesn't mean that it'll be boring soon, but I cannot say it this early. I noticed though that you must have put much more work into Passion! I didn't like the beginning of Transist that much (cannot say why), but then it's quite cool and I really like the timing change in the end! The ending is better than that of Artinmo as it's less sudden. More opinions when I will have spent more time listening... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 17:25:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA38256 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D03321.B52A07DC@zaz.com.br> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:04:33 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Greetings :), Michael Koenig wrote in ( for John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com ): > > >Just a lurker making some comments. > > For how long have you been lurking? > Well, seems we have someone new on the list. Just in case you haven't > noticed yet: dynarecs are not our only topic, even if the name of the > list implies that. So far we also have music and language as subjects, > I hope you don't mind. Well, better introduce myself, too. I've been reading since day one, too -- I'm also on the mul8 list. My name is Willian and I'm from Brazil. About the so-called off topic msgs, in fact I like them, too. This small list doesn't need to adopt too restricting policies like most others. So far, everything posted interested me, so keep on :). Ah, I can add a little to the "gender of substantives" discussion. We speak Portuguese in Brazil. Personally, I consider ours has improved a little on the original from Portugal, but we can still communicate with very few problems. Portuguese treats substantives as "being": male: sun, journal, computer, day, ... female: moon, Earth, forest, mountain, internet ( because net is female ), night, ... English has "the", we use "o" for male and "a" for female: a internet == the internet. That's where this gender differentiation happens -- it's not that we think a computer is male or the moon is a girl, it's all in the definite/indefinite article we use ( "o" or "a"/["um" or "uma" == a, an] ). By the way, someone mentioned banana, we say "a banana"==the banana, not "o banana" -- though foreigners learning the language generally make this king of mistake for years. Many words make the distinction easy for us: if the word ends in "a", it's female, "o" being male: a casa ( the house ), a montanha ( the mountain ), o carro ( the car ). Exceptions though are plentiful: o dia ( the day ). Now the point: why ? I fully understand why some of you think it is weird. I agree it is unnecessary, really. But you where wondering where it came from. I didn't notice anyone mentioning religion and mysticism. This practice is older than writing. Just remember how stars, animals, plants, storms, etc. were "assigned" to gods and goddesses. Languages evolving from these civilizations naturally incorporated and extended -- or got rid of -- that. Of course there's a lot more to this, but if you are looking for its origin... About having one programming topic every week -- I enjoy the idea. Willian, wgermano@zaz.com.br --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 23:50:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA39461 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:50:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D08DAD.B3145FEE@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:30:53 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <38D03321.B52A07DC@zaz.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > About the so-called off topic msgs, in fact I like them, too. This small > list doesn't need to adopt too restricting policies like most others. So > far, everything posted interested me, so keep on :). This is a good thing. Because I doubt any of us would stop. ;) > Many words make the > distinction easy for us: if the word ends in "a", it's female, "o" being > male: a casa ( the house ), a montanha ( the mountain ), o carro ( the > car ). Exceptions though are plentiful: o dia ( the day ). It's like Spanish in that regard, then - where you can tell the sex of a word by the last letter. That's right, Victor, isn't it? > I didn't notice anyone mentioning religion and mysticism. This practice > is older than writing. Just remember how stars, animals, plants, storms, > etc. were "assigned" to gods and goddesses. Languages evolving from > these civilizations naturally incorporated and extended -- or got rid of > -- that. Of course there's a lot more to this, but if you are looking > for its origin... You have a point, yes. What does that say about the English, though? :o > About having one programming topic every week -- I enjoy the idea. But for this week, I suggest our topic(s) be: Languages (spoken) Music C compilers Best assemblers Heh. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 23:55:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA39486 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:55:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D08E71.D0661FCF@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:34:09 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Yes =/ Nyef and Neill Corlett really dislike some of nasm's design > goals... the thing about always using the largest size unless told > otherwise really annoys them for some reason. It annoys me, too. It's happened a few times to me. Grr! > > At least a warning would be nice... > > Heh, this isn't pascal =) Is it BASIC? ;) > Common subexpression elimination. Good CSE would result in the same code > for > > 1) acc = decoderlut[*p4 >> 4]; > > 2) c = *p4 >> 4; acc = decoderlut[c]; > > 3) c = *p4; acc = decoderlut[c >> 4]; > > However, with my version of GCC, only 3 is handled in an intelligent > fasion... Why?! In a good optimiser, the code should be the same for 1 and 3. 2 may be different, but there's no reason why an optimiser wouldn't also produce the same code. Hmm. Strange! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 15 23:56:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA39503 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D08F6D.D4D0C83E@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:38:21 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Any good compilers apart from Watcom? One of the Ada ones? ;) *Bleurgh* I hate Ada. And I have to use it every weekday for next 6-7 months. Aargh! > Someone who started on Intel is likely to prefer dest<-source and little endian... I started with the Z80, does that count? :) > >Right. People use DJGPP because it's free. It generates crap code, but > its > >warnings and error checking are really well done. Watcom generates > great > >code, but its warnings are terrible. > > You can't have everything... > How about LCC? AFAIK only produces files for Win32. > >> How about the Borland compiler? > >Not worth bothering with. > > At least it is free now... Yes. Hmm. And Corel own Borland (or Inprise or whatever) now. And Corel own a Linux distro. It doesn't take a huge brain to see why the Borland compiler is free - and what's going to happen next. > I won't even ask what you think of the Microsoft compilers ;-) Produces pretty good code, actually. Well, VC6 is certainly the best so far. Whether it's as good as Watcom, I really couldn't say - but I'd bet not. I'm sure NB will let us know. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 00:41:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39637 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:41:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:26:17 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >This is a good thing. Because I doubt any of us would stop. ;) Hehe, at least not as long as it's fun ;-) >It's like Spanish in that regard, then - where you can tell the sex of a >word by the last letter. That's right, Victor, isn't it? I don't know Spanish, but it sounds very likely. >You have a point, yes. What does that say about the English, though? :o That you have even more difficulties to find it's origin because English is a mixture of Celtic, Germanic, Latin, Norse, and French... >But for this week, I suggest our topic(s) be: >Languages (spoken) >Music >C compilers >Best assemblers >Heh. :)) How could you tell? ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 00:41:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39645 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:41:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:11:32 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >One of the Ada ones? ;) >*Bleurgh* I hate Ada. And I have to use it every weekday for next 6-7 >months. Aargh! I don't think I would disagree with you in that case... >> Someone who started on Intel is likely to prefer dest<-source and little endian... >I started with the Z80, does that count? :) Sure, the designer of the Z80, Federico Faggin, originally worked for Intel and was one of the three most important figures in the 8080 desgin. >> How about LCC? >AFAIK only produces files for Win32. LCC was designed to be retargetable (hand optimised parser, but generated code generator - hmm, I guess this answers my question) and LCC-Win32 is just one port. >Produces pretty good code, actually. Well, VC6 is certainly the best so >far. Really? Maybe I already have to much prejudices against Microsoft... >Whether it's as good as Watcom, I really couldn't say - but I'd bet >not. I'm sure NB will let us know. :) I bet so ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 00:41:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39652 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:41:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:22:05 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Greetings :), Another lurker in the dark... I wonder how many more are there ;-) >Well, better introduce myself, too. I've been reading since day one, too >-- I'm also on the mul8 list. My name is Willian and I'm from Brazil. Now we are really multicultural! >About the so-called off topic msgs, in fact I like them, too. This small >list doesn't need to adopt too restricting policies like most others. So >far, everything posted interested me, so keep on :). With such a mixture of people on the list it would be a crime if we didn't discuss cultural topics as well, and language and music surely belong to these topics. >Ah, I can add a little to the "gender of substantives" discussion. We >speak Portuguese in Brazil. Personally, I consider ours has improved a >little on the original from Portugal, but we can still communicate with >very few problems. Portuguese treats substantives as "being": >male: sun, journal, computer, day, ... >female: moon, Earth, forest, mountain, internet ( because net is female >), night, ... So Portuguese has two genders like French. >English has "the", we use "o" for male and "a" for female: a internet =>the internet. That's where this gender differentiation happens -- it's >not that we think a computer is male or the moon is a girl, it's all in >the definite/indefinite article we use ( "o" or "a"/["um" or "uma" == a, >an] ). By the way, someone mentioned banana, we say "a banana"==the >banana, not "o banana" -- though foreigners learning the language >generally make this king of mistake for years. Many words make the >distinction easy for us: if the word ends in "a", it's female, "o" being >male: a casa ( the house ), a montanha ( the mountain ), o carro ( the >car ). Exceptions though are plentiful: o dia ( the day ). In Germany we have a proverb: Exceptions support the rule ;-) >Now the point: why ? I fully understand why some of you think it is >weird. I agree it is unnecessary, really. But you where wondering where >it came from. Well, the rule to take the ending letter to decide on the gender surely comes from Latin, but I don't know where they got it from. My knowledge about the history of Roman languages is somehow nonexistent. >I didn't notice anyone mentioning religion and mysticism. This practice >is older than writing. Just remember how stars, animals, plants, storms, >etc. were "assigned" to gods and goddesses. Languages evolving from >these civilizations naturally incorporated and extended -- or got rid of >-- that. Of course there's a lot more to this, but if you are looking >for its origin... So many linguists are hunting for an answer so we are relatively unlikely to find it... >Willian, wgermano@zaz.com.br BTW, is your last name arbitrary or is there a reason that it sounds like "German"? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 00:56:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39763 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:56:31 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >not do a 'week subject' and discuss about it? > Nice idea. So what shall be the topic for next week? How about input controller methodologies for emulation? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 00:57:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39775 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:57:07 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Never mind, I've got to get myself a new amp now - and when I do, I'll > >probably get myself a pair of Sennheissers - either the 590 or 600. > >very nice headphones! > I have Sennheisser HD540 connected to my NAD 314 - yes, I have English > hi-fi equipment. You have HD540's connected to your nads? That's weird, dude! ;-) Actually, I listen to everything on my HD540 MkII headphones. And the 314 is a great piece, too. Splendid choice of audio equipment! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 00:58:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39784 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:58:27 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >"stacatto'd" and panned back and forth. You heart it again in the same > >form at 4:12. It's not the voice that's most prominent - it's panned > >and right. But it's there. > I wouldn't identfy that as a voice... It's my voice going "ooooooooooooooooooh". > >> >Yep - me too. I personally like the tail end of it myself. > >> Yeah it's really not bad. > >Hm.... I'm not sure how to take this. ;-) When somone says "really not > >bad" it usually means "it doesn't totally suck". ;-) > Hmm, I think that's another difference between Britsh and American > English. From what I know "not bad" is some kind of understatement and > means very good. In written text it doesn't have the same impact. I can also say the same thing to someone meaning that "well, it doesn't suck but it isn't good, either" ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:00:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39800 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:00:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:00:21 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >He's an analog Nazi. > I guess you have to explain to me your understanding of the word > "Nazi", since I won't use it in that context. I'm glad when I don't > have to use it anyway, as in Germany this only refers to a group of > people who think they are super humans and justify their atrocities > that way... Um... yeah, that's about right. ;-) Mac users are Mac Nazis. Those who berate other people for using other computers, and act like they are superior to everyone. Nazi means "Militant, aggressive, and single minded" to me. Hope this helps. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:03:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39812 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:03:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:03:00 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CFA1A4.1C548CED@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I don't mind Jazz. I just... don't like it too much either. There are some > types of music I can't stand. Jazz isn't one of them - but Techno is. I've got a bit of techno that I'm sure you'd like. But 90% of techno sucks, so it's hard to find the good stuff. > > than rock, so it's very likely that you don't know what I mean when I > > say "jazz"... > Jazz has loads of styles - it depends on which musician gets different > notes wrong. ;) Yeah. Play a note wrong once and it's a mistake. Play it wrong twice and it's jazz. ;-) > > >I'll try! :) > > To quote Yoda: "There is no try!" ;-) > Ever tried lighting a match on a bar of soap? No. Ever tried lighting your bong by using your fingernail against a match? ;-) > The one thing that puzzles me about Yoda is that he's meant to be hundreds > of years old - yet he STILL can't speak properly! What's going on there? He had British teachers. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:05:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39829 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:05:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:05:51 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CFA282.44F4E4ED@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > There are Nazi's (in your terms) everywhere. In Britain, they're called the > BFL/EFL meaning British/English Front Line. Nearly all of them are white > shaved head twats. I *hate* racism with a passion. If they're going to be bigots, at least discriminate based on intelligence level rather than race. Being racist because of someone's skin/hair/eye color is lame. Being bigoted toward stupid people I find perfectly acceptable! ;-) > a U-Bahn (underground station) - I've got blonde hair and blue eyes - it's > the only reason I can see that he approached me. He wanted to join me in > his army to "kill the Islamic people who are killing all the Germans". Don't these dumbasses have anything better to do with their time? Like a job or molesting sheep? Yes, they are the stupidest, most idiotic people you'll ever meet. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:08:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39838 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:08:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:08:32 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CFAB86.BA2D03F3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I guess every language has that problem, and I tend to use some irony > > from time to time, which might not be understood without smilies... > I guess so, too - but I think the English speaking people use more sarcasm > than other countries (I know that the French find the idea of sarcasm and > irony quite difficult!) - That's because the French don't have a sense of humor. So far the only thing I can figure that the French has given us is semi-soft cheese, women with hairy armpits, poor hygine, and bad hair! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:14:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39851 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:13:58 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CFB1CF.DFF04509@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > And these braindeads often even claim that no Jews were killed in the > > KZs! > WTF?! > It makes me sick, it really does. Yeah. I'm sure you've heard these, too: * The Earth is flat * We never really landed on the moon * Computers don't really exist * There are 6 families that run the world > Thing was, he was telling me how once the Islamic people had killed all the > Germans, they'd start on the French and the British and how I should join > him now to protect my country. It was all I could do not to kill him > myself... Well, if they started in on the French then that wouldn't be so bad. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:20:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39888 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:20:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0A2C3.335F8EDC@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:00:51 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > So Portuguese has two genders like French. I can learn Portuguese easier then. :) > In Germany we have a proverb: Exceptions support the rule ;-) Scary: we have the same! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:22:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39901 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0A361.9C88700A@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:03:29 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > >not do a 'week subject' and discuss about it? > > Nice idea. So what shall be the topic for next week? > > How about input controller methodologies for emulation? Sounds good to me! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:22:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39910 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:22:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0A345.581BE208@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:03:01 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >One of the Ada ones? ;) > >*Bleurgh* I hate Ada. And I have to use it every weekday for next 6-7 > >months. Aargh! > > I don't think I would disagree with you in that case... Ever used it? I'd advise you not to. :) > >I started with the Z80, does that count? :) > > Sure, the designer of the Z80, Federico Faggin, originally worked for > Intel and was one of the three most important figures in the 8080 > desgin. Of course. Yes, I knew this - though I didn't know the guys name. I thought that it was two guys from Intel, though, who formed Zilog? > >> How about LCC? > >AFAIK only produces files for Win32. > > LCC was designed to be retargetable (hand optimised parser, but > generated code generator - hmm, I guess this answers my question) and > LCC-Win32 is just one port. I haven't seen LCC-DOS yet, though. > >Produces pretty good code, actually. Well, VC6 is certainly the best > >so far. > > Really? Maybe I already have to much prejudices against Microsoft... I dislike Microsoft's business practises, but I don't mind their products. When they work, that is. I certainly don't hate MS just for the fun of it, though. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:25:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39923 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0A3E8.7ABA29B1@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:05:44 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I don't mind Jazz. I just... don't like it too much either. There are some > > types of music I can't stand. Jazz isn't one of them - but Techno is. > > I've got a bit of techno that I'm sure you'd like. But 90% of techno > sucks, so it's hard to find the good stuff. You probably have, I do like all types of music. But I'd say that it's more 95% of techno that sucks - I find very little which I can actually rate. > > Jazz has loads of styles - it depends on which musician gets different > > notes wrong. ;) > > Yeah. Play a note wrong once and it's a mistake. Play it wrong twice and > it's jazz. ;-) And with Jazz, it doesn't have to be the same mistake either. ;) > > > >I'll try! :) > > > To quote Yoda: "There is no try!" ;-) > > Ever tried lighting a match on a bar of soap? > > No. Ever tried lighting your bong by using your fingernail against a > match? ;-) I can't say I have, no. Lighters are a wonderful thing. ;) > > The one thing that puzzles me about Yoda is that he's meant to be hundreds > > of years old - yet he STILL can't speak properly! What's going on there? > > He had British teachers. ;-) We invented the language - and then you nicked it and got it wrong! Haha! ;p Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:25:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39932 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:25:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:15:28 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: <38D08E71.D0661FCF@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Neil Griffiths wrote: > Hi, > > > Yes =/ Nyef and Neill Corlett really dislike some of nasm's design > > goals... the thing about always using the largest size unless told > > otherwise really annoys them for some reason. > > It annoys me, too. It's happened a few times to me. Grr! I can see how it could be a somewhat annoying "feature", but the idea of Do Exactly What I Tell You To can be a nice thing in an assembler... > > Heh, this isn't pascal =) > > Is it BASIC? ;) hmm, anyone happen to remember if HyperTalk would cough up a warning? =P > Why?! > > In a good optimiser, the code should be the same for 1 and 3. 2 may be > different, but there's no reason why an optimiser wouldn't also produce the > same code. Hmm. Strange! Heh, I will try to remember to run the tests again tomorrow and provide some specific examples. Having to tweak the code like this to get a better object file felt almost stanky... though some of the other tricks I've pulled are arguably even dirtier... > Neil. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. > John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:26:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39941 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:26:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:26:14 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Belugh. Metrowerks. I *HATE* that compiler. My hatred for it goes back > >ways.. > Any good compilers apart from Watcom? Watcom produces the best code. Phar lap's is decent and Microsoft's MSVC 6 does a pretty good job, too. Not quite as good as Watcom, though. > >And to everyone who thinks it should be source->dest, > For "move #5, d0" it's quite logical, because you can read it from left > to right as "move immediate 5 to register d0", No... You say "D0=5;" Not "5=D0". > >then I give them the following argument: > > a = 5; > >We should be doing: > > 5 = a; > >In C. Right? ;-) > You don't have "assign #5, a" in assembly... for move see the example > above... Yeah. It's still ass backwards. > I agree that in 3 address code the order "Op Rd, Rs1, Rs2" is better > than "Op Rs1, Rs2, Rd", because you can think of it as "Rd = Rs1 Op > R2". Okay, then why not be consistent and make the destination on the left at all times? It's an algebraic assignment. > like the endianness. I started with 68K and source->dest and big endian > is quite normal for me. Someone who started on Intel is likely to > prefer dest<-source and little endian... No, no, no.... Consider that Moto, MOSTEK, Intel, and DEC all had little endian CPUs. I couldn't give a rats ass about little/big endian. I'm comfortable with either and have no preference. However, algebraic notation makes more sense than ass backwards assignments like a lot of RISC CPUs do. "Oh gee, we're different. Let's do everything *BACKWARD* from the way the entire fucking world did it." > >conventions and stack calling conventions. For register calling > >conventions the above is true. GCC Is too braindead and simple to be > >to do register calling conventions decently. > Especially in such a primitive function you notice how much better > register calling would be... Yes. Optimizing for the x86 is tough, so they said "Good enough!" and stopped working on it. > > >> >> movl 8(%ebp),%eax ; eax=[ebp+8] > >> >> incl 8(%ebp) ; Increments the value on the stack > >> This should be "inc eax"... > >No, it should be what it is. You're doing i++. i Is defined on the > stack, > >and the returned value will be *BEFORE* the increment. > Erm, I meant it should have been "inc eax" if I had programmed > correctly... Oh. Gotcha. > >> How about the Borland compiler? > >Not worth bothering with. > At least it is free now... Free still isn't worth much if it's not worth a damn. ;-) > I won't even ask what you think of the Microsoft compilers ;-) Decent. 5 Being average, 10 being Watcom, they're a 7-8. At least the x86 compiler with MSVC. The bSquare compilers they have for the CE devices are lame. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:27:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39951 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0A4A2.61F1BE44@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:08:50 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I guess so, too - but I think the English speaking people use more sarcasm > > than other countries (I know that the French find the idea of sarcasm and > > irony quite difficult!) - > > That's because the French don't have a sense of humor. So far the only > thing I can figure that the French has given us is semi-soft cheese, women > with hairy armpits, poor hygine, and bad hair! There's a couple more things they've given us: - Problems (well, they cause problems for other EU countries, especially Britain!) - A good laugh. Many good laughs, in fact! - Garlic - Onions - A good laugh (so many, I had to list it twice). :) And the funny thing is that I share my apartment with two French guys! :)) Still, apart from that, the apartment is quite nice... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:28:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39960 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:28:05 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Artinmo is quite nice, I liked it on the first run. I hope this doesn't > mean that it'll be boring soon, but I cannot say it this early. I > noticed though that you must have put much more work into Passion! Passion was the last track I wrote - almost 4 years ago. ;-( > I didn't like the beginning of Transist that much (cannot say why), but > then it's quite cool and I really like the timing change in the end! > The ending is better than that of Artinmo as it's less sudden. Artinmo was supposed to fade, and you got to hear a version that has no fading. I like Transistified a lot. One of my faves! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:34:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39980 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:34:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0A58D.5BE1CB8C@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:12:45 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > There are Nazi's (in your terms) everywhere. In Britain, they're called the > > BFL/EFL meaning British/English Front Line. Nearly all of them are white > > shaved head twats. I *hate* racism with a passion. > > If they're going to be bigots, at least discriminate based on intelligence > level rather than race. Being racist because of someone's skin/hair/eye > color is lame. Being bigoted toward stupid people I find perfectly > acceptable! ;-) I'd prefer to be bigoted on a per-person method. I'd rather meet someone and then deciding if I'm going to hate them or not. Judging someone by the level of Melanin in their skin is just... stupid. And pathetic. > > a U-Bahn (underground station) - I've got blonde hair and blue eyes - it's > > the only reason I can see that he approached me. He wanted to join me in > > his army to "kill the Islamic people who are killing all the Germans". > > Don't these dumbasses have anything better to do with their time? Like a > job or molesting sheep? Yes, they are the stupidest, most idiotic people > you'll ever meet. Indeed they are. Especially seeing as a few of my friends are coloured. It was only luck that one of them wasn't there - they would more than likely have started on him... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:36:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39992 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:36:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0A5FD.BA5DEA4B@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:14:37 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > It makes me sick, it really does. > > Yeah. I'm sure you've heard these, too: > > * The Earth is flat Heard this one. > * We never really landed on the moon And this. > * Computers don't really exist Haven't heard this one - but I have conclusive proof that they do - look, I'm using one at the moment! > * There are 6 families that run the world Haven't heard this one either! :o > > Thing was, he was telling me how once the Islamic people had killed all the > > Germans, they'd start on the French and the British and how I should join > > him now to protect my country. It was all I could do not to kill him > > myself... > > Well, if they started in on the French then that wouldn't be so bad. ;-) True... There's another thing the French have given us: - Boring films - Ugly people :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:37:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA40001 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:37:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:37:30 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38D0A4A2.61F1BE44@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > That's because the French don't have a sense of humor. So far the only > > thing I can figure that the French has given us is semi-soft cheese, women > > with hairy armpits, poor hygine, and bad hair! > There's a couple more things they've given us: > - Problems (well, they cause problems for other EU countries, especially > Britain!) > - A good laugh. Many good laughs, in fact! > - Garlic > - Onions > - A good laugh (so many, I had to list it twice). :) Why stop there? - Venereal diseases - Heavy smoking - Crappy bitter wine - Heavy smoking - Arrogance We have a French guy at work and he's an asshole. Parks his car angled so no one will touch his precious POS. That's enough to get you on my shit list. ;-) It's like 200 years ago France was the culturul capitol of the world and they haven't forgotten it. > And the funny thing is that I share my apartment with two French guys! :)) Ah! Are they traditional shower once a month whether they need to or not type French guys? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:38:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA40011 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:38:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:38:31 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38D0A5FD.BA5DEA4B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > There's another thing the French have given us: Hey, this French slamming thing is kinda fun! It's like shooting fish in a barrel. > - Boring films Oh god, yes. And they think they're really, really good! We refer to them as "foreign". > - Ugly people Oh yeah. Fugly is a better term. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:40:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA40025 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:40:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:40:30 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38D0A58D.5BE1CB8C@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Don't these dumbasses have anything better to do with their time? Like a > > job or molesting sheep? Yes, they are the stupidest, most idiotic people > > you'll ever meet. > Indeed they are. Especially seeing as a few of my friends are coloured. It > was only luck that one of them wasn't there - they would more than likely > have started on him... I had a skinhead start talking to me about how black people were stupid and shouldn't be allowed to do things, etc... I paused, looked right at him and said "I find it irionic that you're telling me this..." he paused, thought about it for a few seconds and he said, "Oh yeah! Very ironic!" The guy didn't even understand that he was being a dumb-shit hypocrite! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:48:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA40046 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:48:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: VICTOR MOYA DEL BARRIO Message-Id: <200003160930.KAA04486@alabi.fib.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 15, 0 02:32:20 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:30:16 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Ops, I didn't see this ... Michel has found a really weird example. > > Michel is a character created by the Swedish author Astrid Lindgren. > He's a boy who plays lots of tricks. > Only my mother sometimes calls that way, but normally I'm called > Michael, Michi by some German friends, and Mike by some English > friends. No one uses my second name... > But I guess it was only a typo... > > Sorry, sorry, sorry ... In Spanish is 'Miguel' :) Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 01:59:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA40075 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:59:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: VICTOR MOYA DEL BARRIO Message-Id: <200003160939.KAA04791@alabi.fib.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes In-Reply-To: <38CFAE7F.4F09170A@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 15, 0 04:38:39 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:39:56 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I can discuss a song objectively, whether I like it or not. You can't do > that for a whole musical style anyway. I mean, I don't like Techno. But > there are a couple of songs that I don't mind listening to. > > The same happens to me. There some kinds of music I really hate, but usually it depends upon the theme if it likes me or not. The instrument I like most is spanish guitar and electric guitar, but only if they are played in the propper matter. I'm not an expert in music. >I like just about all music styles. I don't like Techno too much and I > don't see rap as being music at all. Not sure what you mean by "dancefloor" > but I do like Heavy Metal - but the old style and not the current American > trash. > What you call old style, Led Zeppelin, Def Leppard(or something like this). I like most IronMaiden, and what is called german Heavy Metal (now seems is also called Italian Heavy Metal with new bands from Italia). Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 02:02:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA40204 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:02:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:02:22 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Funny stuff Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com http://www.lumine.net/engrish/ Weird English mistranslations by the Japanese. I think it's funny as hell. Mistranslations I find amusing in ANY culture... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 02:04:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA40215 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:04:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0AD36.AEF9414E@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:45:26 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Why stop there? You have a point. - Mad cow disease (I mean French women, BTW) - Crap politicians - French people in general - A common country for everyone to hate > We have a French guy at work and he's an asshole. Parks his car angled so > no one will touch his precious POS. That's enough to get you on my shit > list. ;-) What? Yes, I'd be the same! That takes the piss! :o > It's like 200 years ago France was the culturul capitol of the world and > they haven't forgotten it. It's one of the few things that they can remember. > > And the funny thing is that I share my apartment with two French guys! :)) > > Ah! Are they traditional shower once a month whether they need to or not > type French guys? One is a "shower-once-a-week" guy. And he laughs at me for showering every day. Er... I'd prefer to be clean, if it's all the same to you. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 06:31:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA40796 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:31:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003161411.PAA30713@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows In-Reply-To: <38D0A2C3.335F8EDC@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 16, 2000 10:00:51 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:11:52 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > So Portuguese has two genders like French. > > I can learn Portuguese easier then. :) Portuguese and Spanish are a lot of related. We can understand each other most of time without learning the particular cases of each language. > > > In Germany we have a proverb: Exceptions support the rule ;-) > > Scary: we have the same! It might be an international proverb. In Spanish is: 'la execpcion confirma la regla' direct bad translation is something like this: exceptions confirms the rule. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 06:32:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA40805 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:32:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003161418.PAA01383@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows In-Reply-To: <38D08DAD.B3145FEE@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 16, 2000 08:30:53 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:18:48 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It's like Spanish in that regard, then - where you can tell the sex of a > word by the last letter. That's right, Victor, isn't it? > Yes. Portuguese and Spanish are very similar, in fact Portugal and Spain were the same 'country' by the end of middle age. Later they were separated, I don't know why, problems between kings or something like this ... By what I know a lot of people from Portugal knows Spanish, but not many Spanish talk Portuguese :(. There is a region in Spain were a version of Portuguse is talked too as the main language. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 06:32:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA40814 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003161419.PAA07025@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 16, 2000 00:56:31 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:19:39 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >not do a 'week subject' and discuss about it? > > Nice idea. So what shall be the topic for next week? > > How about input controller methodologies for emulation? > For me is Ok. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 06:59:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA40871 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:59:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0F248.68A52DB8@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:40:08 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <200003161411.PAA30713@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I can learn Portuguese easier then. :) > > Portuguese and Spanish are a lot of related. We can understand each other most > of time without learning the particular cases of each language. With the countries being so close (and Portugal being pretty small) I'd have thought so. Doesn't have to be the case, though. > > Scary: we have the same! > > It might be an international proverb. In Spanish is: 'la execpcion confirma la > regla' direct bad translation is something like this: exceptions confirms the rule. Ooh, I can understand that. Something like: The exception confirms the regulation. I could be wrong, but I hope not. :) I also prefer your badly translated version! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 07:18:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA40944 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 07:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003161505.QAA30023@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows In-Reply-To: <38D0F248.68A52DB8@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 16, 2000 03:40:08 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:05:03 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > I can learn Portuguese easier then. :) > > > > Portuguese and Spanish are a lot of related. We can understand each other most > > of time without learning the particular cases of each language. > > With the countries being so close (and Portugal being pretty small) I'd > have thought so. Doesn't have to be the case, though. > Yes it's something like this, but in fact Portuguese and Spanish start from the same language -latin- and and they were divided in two diffent languages in a later age than perhaps french or italian, and people were a lot of related each other. > > > Scary: we have the same! > > > > It might be an international proverb. In Spanish is: 'la execpcion confirma la > > regla' direct bad translation is something like this: exceptions confirms the rule. > > Ooh, I can understand that. Something like: > > The exception confirms the regulation. > > I could be wrong, but I hope not. :) > > I also prefer your badly translated version! :) > I suppose is something similar :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 07:48:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA41045 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 07:48:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D0FD9A.78D618E9@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:28:26 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <200003161505.QAA30023@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Yes it's something like this, but in fact Portuguese and Spanish start from the same language > -latin- and and they were divided in two diffent languages in a later age than perhaps > french or italian, and people were a lot of related each other. Ah, right. It's strange how different Wales is to England. So close to each other, yet the difference in language is astonishing. Mind you, that's because Welsh is one of the few European languages not to have its roots set in Latin. > > I also prefer your badly translated version! :) > > > I suppose is something similar :) Ooh! My poor Spanish translated something! I'm soooo good! ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 08:07:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41092 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:07:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003161553.QAA30451@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows In-Reply-To: <38D0FD9A.78D618E9@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 16, 2000 04:28:26 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:53:38 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > Yes it's something like this, but in fact Portuguese and Spanish start from the same language > > -latin- and and they were divided in two diffent languages in a later age than perhaps > > french or italian, and people were a lot of related each other. > > Ah, right. It's strange how different Wales is to England. So close to each > other, yet the difference in language is astonishing. Mind you, that's > because Welsh is one of the few European languages not to have its roots > set in Latin. > In Spain there is still another language not derived from latin, I don't know how is called in English, perhaps vasconian, 'vasco' or 'euskera' is called here. It's a really old language from celtic roots (I think but I'm not sure) talked by people before Empire of Rome. But I don't know this language and it's a really hard language. I'm from the norht-east of Spain and this language is spoken in a region in north(central) of Spain and the south of France. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 08:25:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41173 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:25:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:54:54 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Nice idea. So what shall be the topic for next week? >How about input controller methodologies for emulation? I know very close to nothing about the topic but it will be nice to learn from your discussions. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 08:25:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41189 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:25:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:58:22 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Um... yeah, that's about right. ;-) Mac users are Mac Nazis. Those who >berate other people for using other computers, and act like they are >superior to everyone. This is a use of the word Nazi I can understand ;-) >Nazi means "Militant, aggressive, and single minded" to me. Hope this >helps. ;-) Now stored in my organic dictionary - till it gets swapped out... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 08:25:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41190 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:25:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:03:46 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> In Germany we have a proverb: Exceptions support the rule ;-) >Scary: we have the same! I noticed that several proverbs in English and German just sound like literal translations, but there are also many exceptions, which doesn't harm the rule of course ;-) >It might be an international proverb. In Spanish is: 'la execpcion confirma la >regla' direct bad translation is something like this: exceptions confirms the rule. The untranslated German proverb is: "Ausnahmen bestaetigen die Regel." Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 08:25:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41193 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:02:32 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Sorry, sorry, sorry ... It doesn't matter! >In Spanish is 'Miguel' :) And in Russian Michal. It's a really multicultural name. Maybe I should stick to my second name: Ingo... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 08:25:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41191 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:25:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:56:30 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Actually, I listen to everything on my HD540 MkII headphones. And the 314 >is a great piece, too. Splendid choice of audio equipment! Thanks. I prefer functional stuff that really works, and not those function overloaded crap that never does what you want. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 08:40:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41233 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:40:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003161627.RAA06274@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 16, 2000 05:02:32 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:27:11 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Sorry, sorry, sorry ... > > It doesn't matter! > > >In Spanish is 'Miguel' :) > > And in Russian Michal. It's a really multicultural name. Maybe I should > stick to my second name: Ingo... > In fact is a jewish name (ummm ... I don't know how is called in english 'hebreo' the ancient languages of jew people). It's a name from the Bible, this explains because is so international. I think it was an arcangel or something like this. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 12:02:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA41992 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Updates Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:43:52 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Two absolutely unrelated updates: For NG: LCC generates code for Alpha, Sparc, MIPS, and Intel. http://www.cs.princeton.edu/software/lcc/ For NB: Since you were rather surprised: Jeff Porcaro died on 5 August 1992. http://www.toto99.com/jeff/jeff.htm Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 12:02:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA41993 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:46:18 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >In fact is a jewish name (ummm ... I don't know how is called in english 'hebreo' >the ancient languages of jew people). The language is called Hebrew. >It's a name from the Bible, this explains >because is so international. I think it was an arcangel or something like this. I think that's correct. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 12:54:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA42186 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:33:37 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >There's another thing the French have given us: >- Boring films You don't seem to know films by Jacques Tati... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 13:05:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA42247 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Jazz Funk Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:46:18 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I'm currently putting a MP3 file to my home archive that you can find out by yourself what I believe to be good jazz (in this case jazz funk). The song is called "Early AM Attitude" and is a live performance of: Dave Grusin: Acoustic piano and synthesizers Lee Ritenour: Guitar Tim Landers: Bass Vinnie Colaiuta: Drums Barnaby Finch: Synthesizers The file available from (sorry, no FTP): http://www.linguistik.uni-erlangen.de/~mlkoenig/samples/earlyam.mp3 Enjoy it! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 13:23:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA42339 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D14BD6.9962A710@zaz.com.br> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:02:14 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi again :) > Another lurker in the dark... I wonder how many more are there ;-) Lurkers, step ahead before someone with access to the list of members of this group finds you :). > With such a mixture of people on the list it would be a crime if we > didn't discuss cultural topics as well, and language and music surely > belong to these topics. Hopefully we are all free here from that awful sin: considering the model ( in this case, separating knowledge in "well defined" topics ) to be the real thing. But as said in Brazil: 'toda regra tem excessão' == every rule has exception[s]. > >Willian, wgermano@zaz.com.br > > BTW, is your last name arbitrary or is there a reason that it sounds > like "German"? It is a latinization of "german". It means the (male) german. In history ( in Portuguese ) germano is the name by which many so-called barbarian civilizations, who defeated the western romans and started the middle-age, are grouped. Germans, in English. For much more info about this: http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,108594+3,00.html Their names give curious hints: there were the alemmani ( germans are called "alemães" in Portuguese: Germany is "Alemanha" ), franks, goths, ostrogoths, visigoths, saxons, etc. Not that hard to guess the respective regions some of them conquered... Willian --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 13:23:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA42354 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D14BDD.30F9CEBD@zaz.com.br> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:02:21 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <38D03321.B52A07DC@zaz.com.br> <38D08DAD.B3145FEE@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi :) Neil Griffiths wrote [about mysticism and religion being roots for gender in substantives]: > You have a point, yes. What does that say about the English, though? :o Different root, surely. Now we fall into a little philosophy behind languages. For example, maybe you've heard that native chinese speakers may have a natural ability with numbers. I don't mean a cultural thing, like receiving prejudices with the language. It's something gained from "formatting" a young brain with chinese language. Each really different language may stimulate differently, of course. That's a nice thing about people with more than one native language -- that might be broadening their thinking mechanics early on. Developing a little more on the god/goddess aspect: Once, in many cultures, people were basically hunters and collectors. Women were the center, home. Men, the providers and protectors, activelly going out and fighting for their needs. Their gods were helping warriors, gods of hunting. And later, of war. Women would take care of children, feeding, early planting, healing, relief: goddess of cure, moon ( no fighting at night usually ), forest, etc. These cultures generally developed agriculture, settled down ( no need to move when the food was exausted in one place ) and changed their myths accordingly. Going out and killing was not the answer anymore, men became dependant even more on the gods. Would there be rain enough, would natural conditions be nice to them ? Nature gives birth to life, so do women: earth deities were usually female. Men possess, kills the enemy, etc. so violence was a male thing: god of thunder, of storms, war, etc. And way frequently the man, the chief, the king ruled, so the main god was male. Willian --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 13:42:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA42454 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:42:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <008e01bf8f8d$643dddc0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:16:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >There's another thing the French have given us: > >- Boring films > > You don't seem to know films by Jacques Tati... I was joking. You've got to think of people like Luc Besson (sp?) - the guy in charge of films like the Fifth Element. But in general, it's true. Remember what we were saying about exceptions? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 13:42:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA42461 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <008d01bf8f8d$5d19dd00$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200003161627.RAA06274@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:15:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > And in Russian Michal. It's a really multicultural name. Maybe I should > > stick to my second name: Ingo... > > In fact is a jewish name (ummm ... I don't know how is called in english 'hebreo' > the ancient languages of jew people). It's a name from the Bible, this explains > because is so international. I think it was an arcangel or something like this. It's "Hebrew" and yes - it is. Michael was an archangel - and was, AFAIK, the right hand man of God. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 16:39:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA43115 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:39:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:29:17 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Dumped the tests out again, prepare yourself for some blasts of ugly at&t asm. gcc --version is pgcc-2.91.57 Options are -O3 -ffast-math -S Declarations unsigned long c; unsigned long a; unsigned char *p; Construct 1: c = *p; a = lut[c >> 4]; a <<= 1; results in: movzbl (%edi), %eax movl 28(%ebp), %ebx shrl $4, %eax movl lut(,%eax,4), %ecx movzbl (%ebx), %eax addl %ecx, %ecx movl 24(%ebp), %ebx p is stored in EDI and EBX c is stored in EAX a is stored in ECX First pointer is loaded into EDI for some reason, code then loads the next one into EBX. Shifts EAX right 4, indexes into the lut, reads the next byte, shifts ECX left one, and starts at loading the next pointer into EBX. First guess is that it moved things around to avoid an address stall. Construct 2: a = lut[*p >> 4]; a <<= 1; results in: movb (%edi), %al movl 28(%ebp), %ebx shrb $4, %al andl $255, %eax movl lut(,%eax,4), %ecx movb (%ebx), %al addl %ecx, %ecx shrb $4, %al movl 24... Some real stupidities here. Uses a byte move to load AL, shifts, masks, then indexes into the lut. Same thing with EDI and EBX as before. Construct 3 c = *p4 >> 4; a = lut[c]; a <<= 1; Seems I was too sleepy the first time, and Construct 3 produces identical code to Construct 2. Redeclaring c as an unsigned char results in code equivalent to Constructs 2 and 3. The code samples are from part of the stanknes graphics decode. I have 5 packed bitplanes passed in as unsigned char *p0, *p1, *p2, *p3, and *p4. I need these converted to padded 5-bit chunky format to throw at the color table. In other words, Gotta turn 000000000.... 111111111.... 222222222.... 333333333.... 444444444.... into 43210 43210 43210 43210 43210 .... Current algorithm I use steps through the planes a byte at a time. It takes the upper 4 bits, and uses them as an index into a decode table. unsigned long decoderlut[16]; decoderlut[0xA] == 0x00010001; Plane 4's decoded value gets copied straight into an unsigned long accumulator. Acc gets leftshifted one, all further planes OR the decoded value in before the shift. Result is 4 chunky 5 bit pixels, one per byte of the accumulator. Each byte is shoved through the color lookup to get a value to dump to the framebuffer. Process is repeated using the lower 4 bits of each byte. Right now this function sucks up 53% of my runtime =P John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 16 23:20:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA44115 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:20:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-Id: <200003170703.IAA00948@wsasd315.asml.nl> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:03:19 +0100 (MET) From: Paul Franke Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows To: dynarec@synthcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: wrYvgYGrXTb3UT9uqi8aug== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.1 CDE Version 1.2.1 SunOS 5.6 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, I was another lurker in the dark... My intrest in game-emulators brought me to this group. I'm born an raised in the Netherlands, which is a not so large country near Germany. I want to say something more about how a language may shape the brain. When you're younger than approximatly 2 year every human has the ability to learn and recognize virtually every language, however after this age you'll lose the ability recognize certain speech combinations. A good example of this is the inability of Chinese people (I can better say, people who are at a young age only exposed to Chinese speech) to use and recognize the "r". Also another interesting issue is dyslection, which is an inability to read automatically i.e. by using word recognition instead of reading letter by letter, is resticted to certain alphabets. In China dyslection is very rare to absent. A probable explanation for this is the brain areas which are used while reading Chinese are different then those which are being used while reading a laguage which uses the Latin alfabet. Paul _____________________________________________________________________ Paul Franke ASML BV phone: (+31) (0)40-2305074 / 0623379159 De Run 6665 email work: paul.franke@asml.nl 5504 DT Veldhoven, email home: pfranke@wxs.nl The Netherlands --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 00:06:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44209 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:06:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D1E2CC.158DC6D1@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:46:20 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <38D14BD6.9962A710@zaz.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Lurkers, step ahead before someone with access to the list of members of > this group finds you :). We'll hunt you down and... find you. :) > > With such a mixture of people on the list it would be a crime if we > > didn't discuss cultural topics as well, and language and music surely > > belong to these topics. > > Hopefully we are all free here from that awful sin: considering the > model ( in this case, separating knowledge in "well defined" topics ) to > be the real thing. But as said in Brazil: 'toda regra tem excessão' == > every rule has exception[s]. Yes, when we have an excellent opportunity to discuss things like this, why squander (waste) it? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 00:08:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44226 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:08:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D1E35E.B928EB6B@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:48:46 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <38D03321.B52A07DC@zaz.com.br> <38D08DAD.B3145FEE@eurocopter.de> <38D14BDD.30F9CEBD@zaz.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > You have a point, yes. What does that say about the English, though? :o > > Different root, surely. Now we fall into a little philosophy behind > languages. For example, maybe you've heard that native chinese speakers > may have a natural ability with numbers. I don't mean a cultural thing, > like receiving prejudices with the language. It's something gained from > "formatting" a young brain with chinese language. Yes, certainly. I have heard that about Chinese. I'll agree with your explanation too. But maybe we'll find out it's all that rice they eat. ;) > Each really different language may stimulate differently, of course. > That's a nice thing about people with more than one native language -- > that might be broadening their thinking mechanics early on. I'm going to smile and grin at that one. :) > These cultures generally developed agriculture, settled down ( no need > to move when the food was exausted in one place ) and changed their > myths accordingly. Going out and killing was not the answer anymore, men > became dependant even more on the gods. Would there be rain enough, > would natural conditions be nice to them ? Nature gives birth to life, > so do women: earth deities were usually female. Men possess, kills the > enemy, etc. so violence was a male thing: god of thunder, of storms, > war, etc. And way frequently the man, the chief, the king ruled, so the > main god was male. Yep, I agree with this. I was just teasing you about the English bit. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 00:12:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44243 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D1E467.32D6D1AC@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:53:11 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <200003170703.IAA00948@wsasd315.asml.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I'm born an raised in the Netherlands, which is a not > so large country near Germany. Yep, not so far. I've got a couple of friends not so far from there (the Nederlands). > I want to say something more about how a language may shape the > brain. When you're younger than approximatly 2 year every human > has the ability to learn and recognize virtually every language, > however after this age you'll lose the ability recognize certain > speech combinations. A good example of this is the inability of > Chinese people (I can better say, people who are at a young > age only exposed to Chinese speech) to use and recognize the "r". Yes - that's why I think it's a good thing that when a mother and father can speak different languages that it's a good thing to try and teach your child. > Also another interesting issue is dyslection, which is an > inability to read automatically i.e. by using word recognition > instead of reading letter by letter, is resticted to certain alphabets. > In China dyslection is very rare to absent. A probable explanation for > this is the brain areas which are used while reading Chinese are > different then those which are being used > while reading a laguage which uses the Latin alfabet. The word you're looking for is "dyslexia". Personally, I think it's cruel to give dyslexic people a term that they can't even read! :o No, that was cruel. Sorry. :) I think the reason that Chinese don't suffer with this is more due to the fact of how they write words. In fact, each symbol doesn't actually have a word - it's more a meaning. Because of the fact that there aren't really letters (there are, I suppose, when you split up a chinese word into its various components), this may explain why. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 00:32:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44291 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:01:36 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I was joking. You've got to think of people like Luc Besson (sp?) - the guy >in charge of films like the Fifth Element. But in general, it's true. >Remember what we were saying about exceptions? ;) Ah, yes. I was in really bad shape yesterday (and it isn't that much better today). When my grandmother and my mother came back from Salzburg I thought they didn't bring me anything. I was obviously wrong. I would call an infection where you have problems with both ends of the body something... I went to bed at 4 AM since I wanted to make sure I didn't have to run to the toilet in the night. And I couldn't lie anymore at 8 AM... Back to films... I wonder if there are many German films that are really good. Some impressive ones were "Das Boot" about the German submarine U96, "Nur ueber meine Leiche" (a black comedy where a casanova style guy gets a last chance), and "23" which is about the German hacker Karl Koch who stole US military information for the KGB. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 00:32:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44300 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:32:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:08:42 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I was another lurker in the dark... How many are left? >My intrest in game-emulators brought me to this group. Not much about this topic at the moment... >I'm born an raised in the Netherlands, which is a not >so large country near Germany. I've never been to the Netherlands so far, but I know where it lies. To me your language always sounds a bit like a mixture of German and English. >I want to say something more about how a language may shape the >brain. When you're younger than approximatly 2 year every human >has the ability to learn and recognize virtually every language, >however after this age you'll lose the ability recognize certain >speech combinations. A good example of this is the inability of >Chinese people (I can better say, people who are at a young >age only exposed to Chinese speech) to use and recognize the "r". I'm a bit surprised that you don't mention the Sapir-Whorf-theory or the "language acquisition device" by Chomsky... >Also another interesting issue is dyslection, which is an >inability to read automatically i.e. by using word recognition >instead of reading letter by letter, is resticted to certain alphabets. >In China dyslection is very rare to absent. A probable explanation for >this is the brain areas which are used while reading Chinese are >different then those which are being used >while reading a laguage which uses the Latin alfabet. That might be just due to the fact that in the Chinese writing system every sign stands for a syllable, just as in Korea's Hangul. The difficulty then is to know what kind of sound belongs to a special sign, but you don't have to combine several letters to form a syllable. Do we have an Asian lurker on the list by any chance? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 00:32:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44310 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:16:45 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id AAA44304 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It is a latinization of "german". It means the (male) german. In history >( in Portuguese ) germano is the name by which many so-called barbarian >civilizations, who defeated the western romans and started the >middle-age, are grouped. Germans, in English. For much more info about >this: What I meant is if it's just pure chance that you have the name or if you had German ancestors. >Their names give curious hints: there were the alemmani ( germans are >called "alemães" in Portuguese: Germany is "Alemanha" ) Sounds a bit like the French terms... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 00:32:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44311 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:14:37 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes it's something like this, but in fact Portuguese and Spanish start from the same language > -latin- and and they were divided in two diffent languages in a later age than perhaps > french or italian, and people were a lot of related each other. >From my knowledge the strangest language in Europe is Hungarian because it doesn't belong to *any* of the known language familiies, although it's surounded by many languages that do. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 00:46:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44349 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:27:53 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The word you're looking for is "dyslexia". Personally, I think it's cruel >to give dyslexic people a term that they can't even read! :o Hehe. >I think the reason that Chinese don't suffer with this is more due to the >fact of how they write words. In fact, each symbol doesn't actually have a >word - it's more a meaning. Because of the fact that there aren't really >letters (there are, I suppose, when you split up a chinese word into its >various components), this may explain why. Nope, it's one syllable per sign, where one syllable also can be a complete word just as the other languages. And a sign doesn't have to have a meaning because there are also gramatical signs (similar to your inflection). Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 01:14:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA44436 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:14:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:04:29 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows In-Reply-To: <200003170703.IAA00948@wsasd315.asml.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Might as well make a semi-formal introduction. Right now I'm a (somewhat dissatisfied) student at UCI, who originally hails from Texas. I code for linux almost exclusively, as windows is painful and somewhat crash prone. As a result my opinions on tools and such might seem a little biased =) As for emulation, I'm the author of Stanknes. I needed something to keep me coding, so I decided to write a nes emulator for linux that didn't suck =P Right now I'm on the mul8 and nesdev lists, usually lurking unless something particularly interesting pops up. Saw dynarec show up on the list again, and followed the info. I've heard it said that dynarec for the 6502 is severe overkill, but what works well for one processor can usually be adapted to another... AFAIK, noone else approaches graphics or mapper implementation quite the way I do, though I have Neil Bradley's fine non-bankswitched 6502 running just fine for NES stuff... unmodified... In terms of non-emulator stuff, I know a small bit of Spanish and Latin, make bad attempts at playing the electric guitar, and listen to abusively loud music. Pretty much every other interest is either computer or computer game related. Programming wise, the topics I can at least follow a discussion of include some compiler theory, parsing, memory management, garbage collection, file systems, low level graphics, OpenGL, general 3D math, digital filters, language design, network coding, general sound synthesis, BSP trees, texture mapping, a bit of in-depth x86 optimization, 6502, the NES PPU, low level x86 coding, compression, simple encryption, physics, cpu cores, various 2D graphics ops, fractals, threads, some things dealing with java, dynamic loading, and a few other miscellaneous topics. General opinion on music, if it was made after 1992, it has a good chance of sucking. Oh well, enough feeding my ego, back to putting sound back into stanknes... John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 05:58:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA45210 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:58:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:39:00 -0500 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:29:17 -0800 (PST), tarquin@austin.rr.com wrote: >The code samples are from part of the stanknes graphics decode. I have 5 >packed bitplanes passed in as unsigned char *p0, *p1, *p2, *p3, and *p4. I >need these converted to padded 5-bit chunky format to throw at the color >table. > >In other words, Gotta turn > >000000000.... >111111111.... >222222222.... >333333333.... >444444444.... > >into > >43210 43210 43210 43210 43210 .... > >Current algorithm I use steps through the planes a byte at a time. It >takes the upper 4 bits, and uses them as an index into a decode table. > >unsigned long decoderlut[16]; > >decoderlut[0xA] == 0x00010001; > >Plane 4's decoded value gets copied straight into an unsigned >long accumulator. Acc gets leftshifted one, all further planes OR the >decoded value in before the shift. Result is 4 chunky 5 bit pixels, one >per byte of the accumulator. Each byte is shoved through the color lookup >to get a value to dump to the framebuffer. Process is repeated using the >lower 4 bits of each byte. > >Right now this function sucks up 53% of my runtime =P PMFJI... Have you considered using 2 larger decode tables? Here's my suggested code (assuming I have understood the problem you have presented correctly): Declarations unsigned long c; unsigned long a; unsigned long b; unsigned char *p0; unsigned char *p1; unsigned char *p2; unsigned char *p3; unsigned char *p4; Construct: c = *p4++; a = lut1[c]; b = lut2[c]; c = *p3++; a <<= 1; b <<= 1; a |= lut1[c]; b |= lut2[c]; c = *p2++; a <<= 1; b <<= 1; a |= lut1[c]; b |= lut2[c]; c = *p1++; a <<= 1; b <<= 1; a |= lut1[c]; b |= lut2[c]; c = *p0++; a <<= 1; b <<= 1; a |= lut1[c]; b |= lut2[c]; This has the advantage of eliminating the initial shift (two tables, one for each nibble) and eliminating half of the memory reads and address preparation (because we are generating both values simultaneously). Even a brain dead compiler can't screw this up. Your thoughts? -- /-----------------------------------------------------------------\ | Jack Follansbee - Senior Software Engineer - ATI Research Inc. | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | The point is not to program, but to program in such a way | | that you can walk away from a task and say to yourself | | "That is how the program should be done". | \-----------------------------------------------------------------/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 07:37:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA45448 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:37:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:19:10 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Passion was the last track I wrote - almost 4 years ago. ;-( Uh, that's quite some time. I hope your synths don't catch as much dust as my drum kit does... >Artinmo was supposed to fade, and you got to hear a version that has no >fading. Ah, ok. >I like Transistified a lot. One of my faves! Yeah, it's quite good. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 07:52:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA45490 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:52:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D24FE6.303B8F8B@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:31:50 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Passion was the last track I wrote - almost 4 years ago. ;-( > > Uh, that's quite some time. I hope your synths don't catch as much dust > as my drum kit does... Or my violin! :o > >I like Transistified a lot. One of my faves! > > Yeah, it's quite good. Which reminds me, I should give you my input. No matter, I'll do that tonight when I get home. I have listened, but I'll give you my full views later. For now... it's back to the wonderful (sic) world of Ada. :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 08:02:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA45536 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:02:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D25218.ECB977D5@zaz.com.br> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:41:12 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, Michael Koenig wrote: > What I meant is if it's just pure chance that you have the name or if > you had German ancestors. Oh, yes, surely. A german man, about 3 or 4 generations ago. Add to that many portugueses, many italians ( my middle name is Padovani ) and even african ( my father's grandmother ). That's tipically Brazil, mixtures from everywhere. Specially Europe, of course. That gives us easy access to many different cultures ( for one willing to, of course ). By the way, music: anyone here ever heard of Hermeto Pascoal? Brazil has had many fantastic musicians, but this composer is alone in his class. Anyone interested, a net search should bring info and mp3s. Willian --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 08:04:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA45557 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:04:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D252A3.F045989D@zaz.com.br> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:43:31 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <200003170703.IAA00948@wsasd315.asml.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi :) Paul Franke wrote: > I want to say something more about how a language may shape the > brain. When you're younger than approximatly 2 year every human > has the ability to learn and recognize virtually every language, > however after this age you'll lose the ability recognize certain > speech combinations. A good example of this is the inability of > Chinese people (I can better say, people who are at a young > age only exposed to Chinese speech) to use and recognize the "r". That happens to colors, too. Some cultures don't recognize more than one "kind of white" for example. Willian --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 08:41:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA45671 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D25C14.22A69683@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:23:48 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <38D25218.ECB977D5@zaz.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > By the way, music: anyone here ever heard of Hermeto Pascoal? Brazil has > had many fantastic musicians, but this composer is alone in his class. > Anyone interested, a net search should bring info and mp3s. Possibly. Not sure, but isn't Santana Brazilian? I could well be wrong, but I heard that he was. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 08:51:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA45695 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:51:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:38:52 -0500 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <38D25218.ECB977D5@zaz.com.br> <38D25C14.22A69683@eurocopter.de> In-Reply-To: <38D25C14.22A69683@eurocopter.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:23:48 +0100, Neil Griffiths wrote: >Hi, > >> By the way, music: anyone here ever heard of Hermeto Pascoal? Brazil has >> had many fantastic musicians, but this composer is alone in his class. >> Anyone interested, a net search should bring info and mp3s. > >Possibly. Not sure, but isn't Santana Brazilian? I could well be wrong, but >I heard that he was. :) He's Mexican. Sorry, :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 08:58:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA45724 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:58:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D25F9A.D082031A@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:38:50 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <38D25218.ECB977D5@zaz.com.br> <38D25C14.22A69683@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Possibly. Not sure, but isn't Santana Brazilian? I could well be wrong, but > >I heard that he was. :) > > He's Mexican. Sorry, :) Well, now I know. I wasn't sure. :) In that case, apart from some drummers, I don't know any famous musicians from Brazil. Well, none that jump straight to mind... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 09:16:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA45802 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:00:15 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >That happens to colors, too. Some cultures don't recognize more than one >"kind of white" for example. Well, this sounds a bit like Sapir-Whorf again. I haven't heard of this example, but one of the standard examples has to do with colours. I don't find it right now, but I think it was something about colour adjectives for grey and blue(?) in Welsh. Any idea what I'm talking about, NG? In my opinion these examples have the problem that every human has a slightly different way to perceive colours, which makes such distinctions quite difficult. You might find yourself discussion the name of a specific colour with a speaker of the same native language as if you learned a totally different language. Also it is a fact that women seem to distinct far more colours than men! The other big example that there are dozens of words for snow in Inuit (language of the Eskimos) turned out to be a total myth. The Eskimos have at least 2, maybe 4, words for snow, everything else was exageration by linguists. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 09:25:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA45911 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:04:30 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Oh, yes, surely. A german man, about 3 or 4 generations ago. Add to that >many portugueses, many italians ( my middle name is Padovani ) and even >african ( my father's grandmother ). That's tipically Brazil, mixtures >from everywhere. Specially Europe, of course. That gives us easy access >to many different cultures ( for one willing to, of course ). Cool. Must have a nice impact on Brazilian food ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 10:12:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA46168 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:12:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D27145.81B30B7@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:54:13 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Oh, yes, surely. A german man, about 3 or 4 generations ago. Add to > that > >many portugueses, many italians ( my middle name is Padovani ) and > even > >african ( my father's grandmother ). That's tipically Brazil, mixtures > >from everywhere. Specially Europe, of course. That gives us easy > access > >to many different cultures ( for one willing to, of course ). > > Cool. Must have a nice impact on Brazilian food ;-) What, the German part? Well, they'll get sausages. :) Seriously, I can't find any German restaurants that serve German food. And no, I don't want saur kreut (sp?). Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 10:12:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA46176 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:12:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D2710B.51C8C7ED@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:53:15 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Well, this sounds a bit like Sapir-Whorf again. I haven't heard of this > example, but one of the standard examples has to do with colours. I > don't find it right now, but I think it was something about colour > adjectives for grey and blue(?) in Welsh. > Any idea what I'm talking about, NG? Not really, but then I'm used to them. They're sort of objects, though - when we talk about them, that is. > In my opinion these examples have the problem that every human has a > slightly different way to perceive colours, which makes such > distinctions quite difficult. You might find yourself discussion the > name of a specific colour with a speaker of the same native language as > if you learned a totally different language. Also it is a fact that > women seem to distinct far more colours than men! True. But that's because they shop more and come up with some new colours like "Azure" - "Oh, if only it came in Lilac or Azure". Erm... It's pink! ;) > The other big example that there are dozens of words for snow in Inuit > (language of the Eskimos) turned out to be a total myth. The Eskimos > have at least 2, maybe 4, words for snow, everything else was > exageration by linguists. White snow, whiter snow and yellow snow... ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 10:22:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA46212 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:06:53 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >What, the German part? Well, they'll get sausages. :) Nope, I meant the whole combination of all cultures. >Seriously, I can't find any German restaurants that serve German food. Can be difficult sometimes. >And no, I don't want saur kreut (sp?). It's "Sauerkraut". You should know that because Germans are somtimes referred to as "krauts" by the British, and sauerkraut is one of the words that English took over in exactly the same spelling, apart from leberwurst, kindergarten, or waldsterben... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 11:41:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA46604 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:41:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 06:30:58 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Jack wrote: > On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:29:17 -0800 (PST), tarquin@austin.rr.com wrote: > > PMFJI... > > Have you considered using 2 larger decode tables? Here's my suggested > code (assuming I have understood the problem you have presented > correctly): About 15 minutes after I posted that I moved up to one larger table, with two dwords per index. Throwing a |= decoderlut2[c][0]; b |= decoderlut2[c][1]; in seems to have helped a bit, need to try a few different organizations of it. decoderlut2[0|1][c] might be a little bit better... > This has the advantage of eliminating the initial shift (two tables, > one for each nibble) and eliminating half of the memory reads and > address preparation (because we are generating both values > simultaneously). Even a brain dead compiler can't screw this up. looking at the output I get with the single large table, it can =P This will definitely get pounded on some more later, but I recently broke my sound core =) > Your thoughts? > > -- > /-----------------------------------------------------------------\ > | Jack Follansbee - Senior Software Engineer - ATI Research Inc. | > |-------------------------------------------------------------------| > | The point is not to program, but to program in such a way | > | that you can walk away from a task and say to yourself | > | "That is how the program should be done". | > \-----------------------------------------------------------------/ John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 12:10:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA46756 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:10:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D28C2B.6A478858@zaz.com.br> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:48:59 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Out of the shadows References: <38D25218.ECB977D5@zaz.com.br> <38D25C14.22A69683@eurocopter.de> <38D25F9A.D082031A@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi :) Neil Griffiths wrote: > In that case, apart from some drummers, I don't know any famous musicians > from Brazil. Well, none that jump straight to mind... > > Neil. Let me see. Different musicians are known in different places... In the US, probably: Tom Jobim -- a composer and pianist who liked to sing, worked with Sinatra in a couple records. He was one of the creators of Bossa Nova, a mix of american jazz and our roots ). He wrote "Girl from Ipanema", some of you probably heard it. There are some musicians that follow this line ( none as good as him surely ) and work in the States. Milton Nascimento -- great, unique singer. One of my favorites. Hermeto Pascoal, a genius composer, plays anything ( here included things not considered musical instruments ). He looks like an old wiseman or magician. In Europe, there are some violonists, specially Baden Powell, with solid careers. Remember Talking Heads' singer, David Byrne ? He got interested in brazilian music and made famous Tom Zé, a very original singer/lyricist. Heard he is considered a genius in France, for example. Before that, Paul Simon, from Simon & Garfunkel, recorded with a percussion group called Olodum. Percussion is of course very important in Brazil, has evolved to many different styles. Well, getting louder, the most famous bands are Sepultura, the band their former vocalist formed ( Soul Fly ) and Angra, a melodic heavy metal + classical music band. Talking about classics, one of the best new world composers, 19th century, was Carlos Gomes. Later, Heitor Villa-Lobos. Sorry, gotta go right now, anyone interested may request more info... Back home on Sunday. Willian --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 12:25:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA46850 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:25:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:13:26 -0500 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 06:30:58 -0800 (PST), tarquin@austin.rr.com wrote: >On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Jack wrote: > >> On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:29:17 -0800 (PST), tarquin@austin.rr.com wrote: >> >> This has the advantage of eliminating the initial shift (two tables, >> one for each nibble) and eliminating half of the memory reads and >> address preparation (because we are generating both values >> simultaneously). Even a brain dead compiler can't screw this up. > >looking at the output I get with the single large table, it can =P I'd like to see what assembly this produces. Could you? :) -- Jack ---- The road to truth and enlightenment is long... be sure to bring a snack and something to drink - Seen on a bumper sticker --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 17 16:22:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA47801 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:11:49 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: C to ASM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Jack wrote: This is gonna be a LONG one, skip past it if you really don't like looking at AT&T asm =P > >looking at the output I get with the single large table, it can =P > > I'd like to see what assembly this produces. Could you? :) First, the C I'm working from: extern unsigned char *framebuffer; unsigned long pallut[33]; void T24_Decode_5bit(unsigned char line, unsigned char shitf, unsigned char *p0, unsigned char *p1, unsigned char *p2, unsigned char *p3, unsigned char *p4) { unsigned long acc; unsigned long acc2; unsigned char i = 32; unsigned long c; unsigned long *buf = (unsigned long *)framebuffer + (line << 3) + (line << 8) + 8 - shift; unsigned char *sb; if (shift) i++; do { c = *p4; acc = decoderlut2[c][0]; acc2 = decoderlut2[c][1]; acc <<= 1; acc2 <<= 1; c = *p3; acc = decoderlut2[c][0]; acc2 = decoderlut2[c][1]; acc <<= 1; acc2 <<= 1; c = *p2; acc = decoderlut2[c][0]; acc2 = decoderlut2[c][1]; acc <<= 1; acc2 <<= 1; c = *p1; acc = decoderlut2[c][0]; acc2 = decoderlut2[c][1]; acc <<= 1; acc2 <<= 1; c = *p0; acc = decoderlut2[c][0]; acc2 = decoderlut2[c][1]; sb = (unsigned char *)&acc; *buf++ = pallut[*sb++]; *buf++ = pallut[*sb++]; *buf++ = pallut[*sb++]; *buf++ = pallut[*sb++]; sb = (unsigned char *)&acc2; *buf++ = pallut[*sb++]; *buf++ = pallut[*sb++]; *buf++ = pallut[*sb++]; *buf++ = pallut[*sb++]; *p4++; *p3++; *p2++; *p1++; *p0++; i--; } while (i); } now for the really long ugly part, GCC's output. gcc -O3 -ffast-math -o t24.S -S t24.c nothing new here, standard stack frame. T24_Decode_5bit: pushl %ebp movl %esp,%ebp subl $20,%esp beginning of some stupidity... the second pointer here seems like it could be eliminated pushl %edi movl $decoderlut2+4,%edi this huge block just deals with the calculation of buf, and adjusts the loop counter according to shift. pushl %esi pushl %ebx movzbl 8(%ebp),%eax movb 12(%ebp),%cl sall $5,%eax testb %cl,%cl setne %bl movl %eax,%esi addb $32,%bl addl framebuffer,%esi sall $5,%eax movb %bl,-9(%ebp) addl %eax,%esi leal -4(%ebp),%ebx movzbl %cl,%eax leal -32(,%eax,4),%eax leal -8(%ebp),%ebx subl %eax,%esi movl %ebx,-16(%ebp) .p2align 4,,7 Here's the main loop. edi points to the second dword of the lut 32(%ebp) - p4 28(%ebp) - p3 24(%ebp) - p2 20(%ebp) - p1 16(%ebp) - p0 .L35: It's gone nuts here, reads a byte to eax, new addr to ebx, shifts eax to index into the table, reads another byte into ecx, uses eax to grab the first dword into edx movl 32(%ebp),%ebx movzbl (%ebx),%eax movl 28(%ebp),%ebx sall $3,%eax movzbl (%ebx),%ecx movl decoderlut2(%eax),%edx shifts ecx, new addr, uses eax and edi to grab the second dword into eax, shifts eax and edx with adds, ors two more bytes from the table via ecx and edi. sall $3,%ecx movl 24(%ebp),%ebx movl (%eax,%edi),%eax addl %edx,%edx addl %eax,%eax orl decoderlut2(%ecx),%edx orl (%ecx,%edi),%eax >From here through the end of the decodes it is wash rinse repeat ofloads a new byte into ecx, shifts edx, shifts ecx, new addr, shifts eax, ors two bytes, indexing with ecx and edi movzbl (%ebx),%ecx addl %edx,%edx sall $3,%ecx movl 20(%ebp),%ebx addl %eax,%eax orl decoderlut2(%ecx),%edx orl (%ecx,%edi),%eax Repeat movzbl (%ebx),%ecx addl %edx,%edx sall $3,%ecx movl 16(%ebp),%ebx addl %eax,%eax orl decoderlut2(%ecx),%edx orl (%ecx,%edi),%eax Repeat movzbl (%ebx),%ecx addl %edx,%edx sall $3,%ecx addl %eax,%eax orl decoderlut2(%ecx),%edx orl (%ecx,%edi),%eax Saves edx and eax back to the stack, loads the first byte of the saved eax into eax, indexes a dword out of the pallut, stores to esi, loads ebx and edx with a stack value. Why it uses two mem reading calls as opposed to one earlier mem read and a register->register move I have no idea. movl %edx,-4(%ebp) movl %eax,-8(%ebp) movzbl -4(%ebp),%eax movl pallut(,%eax,4),%eax movl %eax,(%esi) movl -20(%ebp),%ebx movl -20(%ebp),%edx increments esi, incs edx twice. uses ebx to get byte two of the saved value, throws it at pallut, stores to buf. incl %edx addl $4,%esi incl %edx movzbl 1(%ebx),%eax movl pallut(,%eax,4),%eax movl %eax,(%esi) grabs a byte using edx, incs esi, throws the byte through pallut, stores to esi, grabs a byte using edx, incs esi, throws through pallut, stroes to esi movzbl (%edx),%eax addl $4,%esi movl pallut(,%eax,4),%eax movl %eax,(%esi) movzbl 1(%edx),%eax addl $4,%esi movl pallut(,%eax,4),%eax movl %eax,(%esi) Repeats the above with the second dword movzbl -8(%ebp),%eax addl $4,%esi movl pallut(,%eax,4),%eax movl %eax,(%esi) movl -16(%ebp),%ebx movl -16(%ebp),%edx incl %edx addl $4,%esi incl %edx movzbl 1(%ebx),%eax movl pallut(,%eax,4),%eax movl %eax,(%esi) movzbl (%edx),%eax addl $4,%esi movl pallut(,%eax,4),%eax movl %eax,(%esi) movzbl 1(%edx),%eax addl $4,%esi movl pallut(,%eax,4),%eax movl %eax,(%esi) addl $4,%esi incs all the pointers, decs the loop counter, exits incl 32(%ebp) incl 28(%ebp) incl 24(%ebp) incl 20(%ebp) incl 16(%ebp) decb -9(%ebp) jne .L35 leal -32(%ebp),%esp popl %ebx popl %esi popl %edi movl %ebp,%esp popl %ebp ret This message is way too long as it is, some of the things gcc's pulling don't seem quite optimal. Then again, the x86 is a pain in the ass to optimize for. The IA64 set shows promise, but we'll see. AFAIK, the main problem is that GCC was designed on systems with adequate register sets, and sensible calling conventions. The x86 calling convention hasn't really changed since the 8086. It most definitely didn't have the room to do much in the way of general register calling conventions. Optimizing for this chip isn't quite the same as optimizing for something with 32 or more registers for both integer and fp... I believe Intel's compiler is quite nice when it comes to good code generation, but it's a little pricey... > -- > Jack > ---- > The road to truth and enlightenment is long... > be sure to bring a snack and something to drink > > - Seen on a bumper sticker > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. > John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 19 16:40:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00910 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:40:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D25418.59F517CA@ncl.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:49:44 +0000 From: Tom Organization: None whatsoever X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > > > > I guess every language has that problem, and I tend to use some irony > > > from time to time, which might not be understood without smilies... > > I guess so, too - but I think the English speaking people use more sarcasm > > than other countries (I know that the French find the idea of sarcasm and > > irony quite difficult!) - > > That's because the French don't have a sense of humor. So far the only > thing I can figure that the French has given us is semi-soft cheese, women > with hairy armpits, poor hygine, and bad hair! And Prolog. -- --Tom this space filled with | this space not filled with this space filled this intentionally | with this intentionally unintentionally --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 19 17:17:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01172 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 17:17:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 02:15:48 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >And Prolog. (Almost) every programming language is good for a certain purpose, so is Prolog. Eg. DCGs are very nice for rapid prototyping of small grammars ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 01:06:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA02770 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:06:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D5E96B.586FD518@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:03:39 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >And Prolog. > > (Almost) every programming language is good for a certain purpose, so > is Prolog. Only purpose I can think of is to ruin peoples minds as they can't figure out why a certain predicate doesn't work! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 01:10:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA02782 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D5E9B9.DBA0F695@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:04:57 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Input controllers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, Guess I'll post the first message about this weeks topic - input controllers. How do we do them, how do we implement them (same thing?) and how do we make them better? There. Isn't it nice to be on-topic for a change? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 01:49:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA02904 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:49:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:49:05 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers In-Reply-To: <38D5E9B9.DBA0F695@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Guess I'll post the first message about this weeks topic - input > controllers. How do we do them, how do we implement them (same thing?) and > how do we make them better? > There. Isn't it nice to be on-topic for a change? ;) Ah - here we go. ;-) I'll share with you how I think controllers ought to be done (and how they're done in Retrocade). First and foremost, polling sucks. Having to look to see if something is pressed or is being moved is outdated, old, and should be abolished to all depths of hell forever. There is no need in today's world for polling - especially those that have an interrupt or callback driven capability (everything except joysticks which can be made to poll in an interrupted fashion under DOS) I classify controllers into 3 categories: * Binary - Any controller with a make/break contact. Joystick, fire button, etc... * Analog - Any controller with a variable range of positions. This would be an analog joystick, flight yoke, foot pedal, etc... * Ballistics - Any controller, such as a trackball, mouse, or anything that works off of differences or rate of change. The input control code of Retrocade is divide up into x parts (from top down): Hardware layer - Responds to any callbacks, events, or interrupts from any input device. This includes the mouse, keyboard, joystick, or any other controller. All OSs have the ability to generate interrupts or messages when a controller is changed in some way. The only exception to the rule is under DOS, joysticks must be polled. We can get around this problem by polling the joystick inside the 18.2 tick/sec standard timer. This layer fills out a controller structure (whether it's a Keyboard, Mouse, Joystick, Microsoft Sidewinder, Gamepad Pro, etc...) as to what has changed and passes it on to the generic controller specific layer. It might be that a specific key has been pressed, a joystick position move, or a ballistics/distance change with a mouse. Anything beyond the hardware layer is platform independent. Generic controller specific layer - This takes a generic input structure and deals with it in an appropriate fashion. This layer will convert the specific into the generic (I.E. mouse movement becomes a ballistic), checks to see if any changes have been made (in case the hardware layer is braindead and doesn't check to see if the state is already set that way), and scales (if necessary) the range of the physical device to the logical device. For example, if the mouse has a ballistics range of -32 to +32 and the game we're playing only has a -7/+7, we'd overflow too quickly. So it scales it down (or up) depending upon the game being played. Same thing with the joystick. If the game is expecting -256 to 0, and the hardware layer hands it a range of 63 to -63, it reverses and rescales the input range to the game's requirement being played. The keyboard routine requires that the hardware layer hand a platform independent key pressing translation. It also handles shifts, ctrls, and alted keys. Game control layer - This routine takes the genericized input control change and compares the input control type with what is currently assigned to what controller. In Asteroids, there's a left/right/hyperspace/fire and thrust button list - all listed as BINARY devices. You can map any physical binary device to any logical binary device (in the game), or multiple physical binary devices to the same logical binary device (I.E. "fire"). If it finds an assignment from the incoming controller to the game specific controller, it then calls down to the emulated control layer. You cannot, however, assign a binary device to an analog control device. You'll have to create something inside the emulated game itself to handle it. Emulated control layer - This layer is actually 3 separate routines - One to handle binary device, one for ballistics, and one for analog control. Which one is called depends upon the incoming controller type. This routine will scan the list of controllers the game has (fire, hyperspace, etc...) and figure out what needs to be done. It can be one of two things: * Modify an "emulated" memory location - somewhere in the emulated memory map space. This allows you to place a controller "make" and "break" (for binary controllers) at a specific emulated address. You get to define what's a "make" and what's a "break" inside the platform extension itself. * Modify a physical memory location, such as a variable in the same manner as listed above. This allows funky processing to be done on the controller input itself (if necessary). The nice thing about this approach is that things just happen out of band. You have no idea that anything changed. And it only changes when you actually do something with a controller. The emulated code will already be polling for some of these addresses, and the interrupt or controller thread will take care of changing the memory location appropriately. And you have the flexibility of remapping controllers - sometimes multiple controllers to a single function! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 05:01:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA03421 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 05:01:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D62055.3396E460@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:57:57 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > There. Isn't it nice to be on-topic for a change? ;) > > Ah - here we go. ;-) No-one else is speaking. I don't think they want to talk about on-topic subjects. ;) > Hardware layer - Responds to any callbacks, events, or interrupts from any > input device. This includes the mouse, keyboard, joystick, or any other > controller. All OSs have the ability to generate interrupts or messages > when a controller is changed in some way. The only exception to the rule > is under DOS, joysticks must be polled. We can get around this problem by > polling the joystick inside the 18.2 tick/sec standard timer. This layer > fills out a controller structure (whether it's a Keyboard, Mouse, > Joystick, Microsoft Sidewinder, Gamepad Pro, etc...) as to what has > changed and passes it on to the generic controller specific layer. It > might be that a specific key has been pressed, a joystick position move, > or a ballistics/distance change with a mouse. Anything beyond the hardware > layer is platform independent. How do you poll the joystick using Interrupts when you're in P-Mode? Do you keep having to drop back into real-mode - which sounds extrememly slow to me(!)? > The nice thing about this approach is that things just happen out of band. > You have no idea that anything changed. And it only changes when you > actually do something with a controller. The emulated code will already be > polling for some of these addresses, and the interrupt or controller > thread will take care of changing the memory location appropriately. And > you have the flexibility of remapping controllers - sometimes multiple > controllers to a single function! Sounds a nice approach. :) I take it that you mean either "Game" or "Arcade hardware system" by platform extension? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 06:15:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03563 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:15:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:11:22 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Only purpose I can think of is to ruin peoples minds as they can't figure >out why a certain predicate doesn't work! :o Every got the error message "missing closing bracket" during the execution of Scheme program with over 1000 lines? Well, this surely drives you mad! ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 06:15:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03567 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:15:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:12:09 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >There. Isn't it nice to be on-topic for a change? ;) Yeah, and you still were able to remember the topic ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 06:47:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03652 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D637D4.E891E88A@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:38:12 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >There. Isn't it nice to be on-topic for a change? ;) > > Yeah, and you still were able to remember the topic ;-) ;p Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 06:47:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03661 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:47:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D637F6.E8239F4B@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:38:46 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: My tunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Every got the error message "missing closing bracket" during the > execution of Scheme program with over 1000 lines? Well, this surely > drives you mad! ;-) Had to write AI chess game in Prolog last year for Uni. Erm... aaarrgggghhh! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 06:52:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03675 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:52:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:59:02 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers In-Reply-To: <38D5E9B9.DBA0F695@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Neil Griffiths wrote: > Hi, > > Guess I'll post the first message about this weeks topic - input > controllers. How do we do them, how do we implement them (same thing?) and > how do we make them better? Well, in the current version of stanknes things run something like this: At vblank: kick the IO backend, it runs through the event loop, updates the button states. Short, simple, and horribly unportable =P > Neil. John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 22:48:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA07515 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:48:40 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers In-Reply-To: <38D62055.3396E460@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > No-one else is speaking. I don't think they want to talk about on-topic > subjects. ;) Yes. How dare we talk about things that are on topic! > > might be that a specific key has been pressed, a joystick position move, > > or a ballistics/distance change with a mouse. Anything beyond the hardware > > layer is platform independent. > How do you poll the joystick using Interrupts when you're in P-Mode? Do you > keep having to drop back into real-mode - which sounds extrememly slow to > me(!)? Nope. It's only for joystick control, and the way you read a joystick is by "out"ing to a port and spinning on an "in" of that port until the bit becomes a 1 again. How long it takes you depends upon how quickly the capacitor is discharging. I do that in the ISR. Only takes a few microseconds. > > polling for some of these addresses, and the interrupt or controller > > thread will take care of changing the memory location appropriately. And > > you have the flexibility of remapping controllers - sometimes multiple > > controllers to a single function! > I take it that you mean either "Game" or "Arcade hardware system" by > platform extension? "Platform extension" Is what everyone calls a game "driver". I think it's a horrible name since it's not a driver at all. If anything, it uses drivers! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 23:28:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07642 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:28:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D72398.7B06CED5@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:24:08 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > No-one else is speaking. I don't think they want to talk about on-topic > > subjects. ;) > > Yes. How dare we talk about things that are on topic! Exactly! It's disgusting! ;) > > How do you poll the joystick using Interrupts when you're in P-Mode? Do you > > keep having to drop back into real-mode - which sounds extrememly slow to > > me(!)? > > Nope. It's only for joystick control, and the way you read a joystick is > by "out"ing to a port and spinning on an "in" of that port until the bit > becomes a 1 again. How long it takes you depends upon how quickly the > capacitor is discharging. I do that in the ISR. Only takes a few > microseconds. I meant the 18.2 timer. I was under the impression that it was an interrupt. How does that work when you're in PMode? I've used that timer before (keyboard timer, isn't it?) - but only in real mode. The only place I've ever programmed support for joysticks was when I used DirectInput. So that was pretty easy. :) > > I take it that you mean either "Game" or "Arcade hardware system" by > > platform extension? > > "Platform extension" Is what everyone calls a game "driver". I think it's > a horrible name since it's not a driver at all. If anything, it uses > drivers! That's true. Ah, right. Now I know. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 23:33:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07667 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:33:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:33:09 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers In-Reply-To: <38D72398.7B06CED5@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > becomes a 1 again. How long it takes you depends upon how quickly the > > capacitor is discharging. I do that in the ISR. Only takes a few > > microseconds. > I meant the 18.2 timer. I was under the impression that it was an > interrupt. How does that work when you're in PMode? I've used that timer > before (keyboard timer, isn't it?) - but only in real mode. The interrupt still happens and you go stay in protected mode. When you chain to the old handler, it'll drop to real mode to handle the interrupt and jump back into protected mode when finished. But all you have to do is chain the interrupt. It's just a couple of calls. > The only place I've ever programmed support for joysticks was when I used > DirectInput. So that was pretty easy. :) Yup. DirectInput generecizes things nicely. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Seti@Home Hall of Shame on a 80386DX16, Intel 80387 Synthcom Systems, Inc. 32MB RAM, Win 95 Status: 48.425% complete ICQ # 29402898 CPU Time: 1721 Hours 14 minutes 53.4 sec --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 23:52:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07719 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:52:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D729B9.3380EA7D@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:50:17 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > The interrupt still happens and you go stay in protected mode. When you > chain to the old handler, it'll drop to real mode to handle the interrupt > and jump back into protected mode when finished. > > But all you have to do is chain the interrupt. It's just a couple of > calls. That's what I thought. That's what I meant earlier when I said about dropping back into real-mode. :) > > The only place I've ever programmed support for joysticks was when I used > > DirectInput. So that was pretty easy. :) > > Yup. DirectInput generecizes things nicely. It does. If only the *rest* of DirectX was so easy to handle! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 20 23:53:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07728 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:53:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D72958.2E4FADA3@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:48:40 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, Whereas in other lists, "OT" would mean "Off Topic", this time it means "On Topic". ;) Anyway, I would like to get everyone to discuss so we can, for once and for all, come up with some definitive meanings to the following methods: - Static Compilation - Static Recompilation - Dynamic Compilation - Dynamic Recompilation Now, I will give you MY understanding of the following terms: ----- Static compilation: Static compilation is where you take the code from one CPU and convert it into code which is executable on your CPU. However, this is done *before* you start executing any of the converted/translated code. Static compilation should give a slow startup time (because it does all the translation before the emulation begins) but a faster execution side. Advantages: Speed Disadvantages: Because of the way it works, Static compilation is going to run very few ROMs without the author having to go into the ROM(s) and perform all the mapping work etc. Cannot handle self-modifying code. ----- Static recompilation: Static recompilation is the same as static compilation in that it does lots of work before the emulation starts, but will check for self-modifying code during the execution and will do more translation if required. Will have a slow startup time and can be slow during emulation too. Advantages: Fast. Handles self-modifying code. Disadvantages: Will still need the author to go into the ROMs to check for mapping (unless the recompilation part does this). ----- Dynamic compilation: Also known as JIT, dynamic compilation is performed during execution. It will translate code in blocks from one CPU to another and then execute that code. It gives a fast startup time, but a slower execution time that static. Advantages: Fairly fast. Doesn't require former knowledge of the ROMs before it can run. Disadvantages: Doesn't handle self-modifying code. ----- Dynamic recompilation: This uses the same method as dynamic compilation, but it can check for any modification in the code and compile that too. In this way, it can handle self-modifying code. It gives a fast startup time, but a slower execution time than dynamic compilation. Advantages: Fairly fast. Doesn't require former knowledge of the ROMs before it can run. Handles self-modifying code. Disadvantages: Not the fastest method. ----- Obviously, the speed thing is dependant on several factors. But in terms of techniques, that's how the speed should work. Dynamic compilation should be great for arcade machines where it should be rare for you to find self-modifying code. Dynamic recompilation should be great for computers or anywhere where you may find self-modifying code. I don't particularly like the static methods - I'd rather be able to give my CPU core some code to translate and let it deal with it - I don't want to go into the code to give my CPU core some more information before it can translate it. Comments? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 00:45:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA07903 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:45:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D7366E.6648E91E@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:44:30 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Input controllers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > First and foremost, polling sucks. Having to look to see if something is > pressed or is being moved is outdated, old, and should be abolished to all > depths of hell forever. There is no need in today's world for polling - > especially those that have an interrupt or callback driven capability > (everything except joysticks which can be made to poll in an interrupted > fashion under DOS) There is someone really doing polling? This seems to me incredible. I have debugged many old PC games (last 80's and early 90's, so they are DOS games) and they all use interrupt handled controllers (mainly keyboard). I can't really figure to be polling to a mouse. If I think about it (I'm not still an expert about general emulation) I can see that many arcade machines and consoles uses polling for get controller input. The only interrupt they have seems to be vertical/horizontal blank interrupt (mapped on NMI). I don't know what happens with later machines like MegaDrive, SuperNes or PlayStation, do they use still polling for read from controllers?. Perhaps people is doing polling in his emulators because they see polling being used on machines they emulate. But in PC (and in Unix machines, whatever they were) polling for get controller input has no sense, they have an interrupt (or signal, callback, event ...) to handle it. I know that if one of my teachers see this on a Computer Structure class the guy who does this can be considered suspended (D-) :). If they program in C what they use getch? :o > > I classify controllers into 3 categories: > > * Binary - Any controller with a make/break contact. Joystick, fire > button, etc... > > * Analog - Any controller with a variable range of positions. This would > be an analog joystick, flight yoke, foot pedal, etc... > > * Ballistics - Any controller, such as a trackball, mouse, or anything > that works off of differences or rate of change. These seem OK. > > The input control code of Retrocade is divide up into x parts (from top > down): You are a really structured man, don't you ;). The word you like most seems to be 'layer'. Have you worked with ISO's OSI? I think this is OK don't misunderstand me, but perhaps not all layers have to be really implemented if you want speed. > > Hardware layer - Responds to any callbacks, events, or interrupts from any > input device. This includes the mouse, keyboard, joystick, or any other > controller. All OSs have the ability to generate interrupts or messages > when a controller is changed in some way. The only exception to the rule > is under DOS, joysticks must be polled. We can get around this problem by > polling the joystick inside the 18.2 tick/sec standard timer. This layer > fills out a controller structure (whether it's a Keyboard, Mouse, > Joystick, Microsoft Sidewinder, Gamepad Pro, etc...) as to what has > changed and passes it on to the generic controller specific layer. It > might be that a specific key has been pressed, a joystick position move, > or a ballistics/distance change with a mouse. Anything beyond the hardware > layer is platform independent. So if I have understood you, you have a data structure for store data readed for each type of controller (perhaps a C union). This structure is filled in the hardware layer and passed to the next layer. > > Generic controller specific layer - This takes a generic input structure > and deals with it in an appropriate fashion. This layer will convert the > specific into the generic (I.E. mouse movement becomes a ballistic), > checks to see if any changes have been made (in case the hardware layer is > braindead and doesn't check to see if the state is already set that way), > and scales (if necessary) the range of the physical device to the logical > device. For example, if the mouse has a ballistics range of -32 to +32 and > the game we're playing only has a -7/+7, we'd overflow too quickly. So it > scales it down (or up) depending upon the game being played. Same thing > with the joystick. If the game is expecting -256 to 0, and the hardware > layer hands it a range of 63 to -63, it reverses and rescales the input > range to the game's requirement being played. The keyboard routine > requires that the hardware layer hand a platform independent key pressing > translation. It also handles shifts, ctrls, and alted keys. Perhaps is my english but I don't understand this of 'a generic controller specific layer', is specific or generic for the controller? Do you make a conversion of the input to a generic representation or to a game specific representation? > > Game control layer - This routine takes the genericized input control > change and compares the input control type with what is currently assigned > to what controller. In Asteroids, there's a left/right/hyperspace/fire and > thrust button list - all listed as BINARY devices. You can map any > physical binary device to any logical binary device (in the game), or > multiple physical binary devices to the same logical binary device (I.E. > "fire"). If it finds an assignment from the incoming controller to the > game specific controller, it then calls down to the emulated control > layer. You cannot, however, assign a binary device to an analog control > device. You'll have to create something inside the emulated game itself to > handle it. I think in this layer you do the map from the host controller to the emulated controller. > > Emulated control layer - This layer is actually 3 separate routines - One > to handle binary device, one for ballistics, and one for analog control. > Which one is called depends upon the incoming controller type. This > routine will scan the list of controllers the game has (fire, hyperspace, > etc...) and figure out what needs to be done. It can be one of two things: > > * Modify an "emulated" memory location - somewhere in the emulated memory > map space. This allows you to place a controller "make" and "break" (for > binary controllers) at a specific emulated address. You get to define > what's a "make" and what's a "break" inside the platform extension itself. > > * Modify a physical memory location, such as a variable in the same manner > as listed above. This allows funky processing to be done on the controller > input itself (if necessary). > These is the more obvious part. You have to store somewhere the state of the emulated controller for the emulator code. You have to modify the memory location or IO port from the emulated core or/and modify an specific variable for this emulated controller. > > The nice thing about this approach is that things just happen out of band. > You have no idea that anything changed. And it only changes when you > actually do something with a controller. The emulated code will already be > polling for some of these addresses, and the interrupt or controller > thread will take care of changing the memory location appropriately. And > you have the flexibility of remapping controllers - sometimes multiple > controllers to a single function! The layer approach gives you flexibility and portability but I think most times something more direct can be faster and easier to implement. What makes this really good is that you aren't doing polling, your emulator core don't have to worry about controllers so controllers are handled separately. It seems really good, but if would be better if I understand it better ... More time to think about it so. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 01:09:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA07942 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:16:19 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38D72958.2E4FADA3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Neil Griffiths wrote: > - Static Compilation > - Static Recompilation > - Dynamic Compilation > - Dynamic Recompilation Your definitions are pretty much identical to mine... > Neil. John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 02:21:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA08358 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:21:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D74C8B.EE19E2B2@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:18:51 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Your definitions are pretty much identical to mine... Cool. Well, that's 2-0. Two of us agreeing and no-one disagreeing. Mind you, no-one else but you has replied! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 06:04:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08796 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 06:04:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003211408.PAA00684@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38D72958.2E4FADA3@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 21, 2000 08:48:40 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:08:13 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > Whereas in other lists, "OT" would mean "Off Topic", this time it means "On > Topic". ;) > > Anyway, I would like to get everyone to discuss so we can, for once and for > all, come up with some definitive meanings to the following methods: > > - Static Compilation > - Static Recompilation > - Dynamic Compilation > - Dynamic Recompilation > > Now, I will give you MY understanding of the following terms: > > ----- > > Static compilation: > > Static compilation is where you take the code from one CPU and convert it > into code which is executable on your CPU. However, this is done *before* > you start executing any of the converted/translated code. Static > compilation should give a slow startup time (because it does all the > translation before the emulation begins) but a faster execution side. What you mean only one compilation (store the result in an executable or kind of file) or a new compilation each time you run a ROM? > > Advantages: Speed > Disadvantages: Because of the way it works, Static compilation is going to > run very few ROMs without the author having to go into the ROM(s) and > perform all the mapping work etc. Cannot handle self-modifying code. > I think disadvantages are: you have to compile (and perhaps store too) each ROM you want to execute and that it is really hard to make static compilation and I'm working with this now in my job so believe me, one main problem are indirect jumps. About indirect jumps: in my work we run the translator in a loop: translate, execute, find unresolved jumps and so on, but in emulation this is imposible because many code are not to be executed until the player has made something. It isn't good to quit the emulator while the user is playing and start a new compilation. > ----- > > Static recompilation: > > Static recompilation is the same as static compilation in that it does lots > of work before the emulation starts, but will check for self-modifying code > during the execution and will do more translation if required. Will have a > slow startup time and can be slow during emulation too. > A derivated form would be to make some work before emulation and then work as a dinamic compiler. For example you can translate in one shot all code until an indirect jump is found or a input is needed. You can also try to gather some informations as register usage for later static register assignament or to find basic blocks. > Advantages: Fast. Handles self-modifying code. > Disadvantages: Will still need the author to go into the ROMs to check for > mapping (unless the recompilation part does this). > Please, can you explain me a bit this about ROM mapping, I don't see what's the problem. > ----- > > Dynamic compilation: > > Also known as JIT, dynamic compilation is performed during execution. It > will translate code in blocks from one CPU to another and then execute that > code. It gives a fast startup time, but a slower execution time that > static. > Please don't use this Java terminology the JIT or Java Hot Spot are something different they mix an interpreter with a dynamic compiler and a profiling system. I think not so slow while executing you are going to use the same code all time so you make, usually, only a translation in the 'beginning' of the run. > Advantages: Fairly fast. Doesn't require former knowledge of the ROMs > before it can run. > Disadvantages: Doesn't handle self-modifying code. I agree. > > ----- > > Dynamic recompilation: > > This uses the same method as dynamic compilation, but it can check for any > modification in the code and compile that too. In this way, it can handle > self-modifying code. It gives a fast startup time, but a slower execution > time than dynamic compilation. > > Advantages: Fairly fast. Doesn't require former knowledge of the ROMs > before it can run. Handles self-modifying code. > Disadvantages: Not the fastest method. > I think dynamic recompilation and dynamic compilation are really the same technique. I would talk about dynamic compilation with test for self-modifying code or dinamic generated code. The difference in speed is that you have to check (an this will be the really time spending part) for code modifications and you have to retranslate. Handle self-modifying code can only be useful if the emulated machine don't use very often self-modifying code or is used only in a known moment or place (at startup, in some portion-small- from memory). If you have to test every time you write if you are writing code perhaps it's better to use an interpreter. > ----- > > Obviously, the speed thing is dependant on several factors. But in terms of > techniques, that's how the speed should work. > > Dynamic compilation should be great for arcade machines where it should be > rare for you to find self-modifying code. Dynamic recompilation should be > great for computers or anywhere where you may find self-modifying code. I > don't particularly like the static methods - I'd rather be able to give my > CPU core some code to translate and let it deal with it - I don't want to > go into the code to give my CPU core some more information before it can > translate it. > About static methods, the static recompilation approach I talk about (do some preparing work) I think could be really useful. Static compilation I think is useless for use with consoles, perhaps if you build a static compiler for one arcade machine and then you releases the executable ..., but this would be more illegal than usual emulation so it's better to don't think about this. > Comments? Yes I like most the 'translation' term than 'compilation' but doesn't matter ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 07:09:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA08953 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:09:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D78FB5.84E742F8@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:05:25 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003211408.PAA00684@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Static compilation is where you take the code from one CPU and convert it > > into code which is executable on your CPU. However, this is done *before* > > you start executing any of the converted/translated code. Static > > compilation should give a slow startup time (because it does all the > > translation before the emulation begins) but a faster execution side. > > What you mean only one compilation (store the result in an executable or kind of file) > or a new compilation each time you run a ROM? I wouldn't store it in an executable or file (although you could!), I'd store it in memory. So that way - yes, a new compilation would be required each time I run a ROM. > > Advantages: Speed > > Disadvantages: Because of the way it works, Static compilation is going to > > run very few ROMs without the author having to go into the ROM(s) and > > perform all the mapping work etc. Cannot handle self-modifying code. > > > I think disadvantages are: you have to compile (and perhaps store too) each ROM you want to > execute and that it is really hard to make static compilation Once compiled, the ROMs with code inside can be discarded. This problem happens with all types of compilation - or translation as you prefer to call it. ;) > and I'm working with this now in my job > so believe me, one main problem are indirect jumps. Yes, I know. That's what I mean by mapping work etc. :) > About indirect jumps: in my work we > run the translator in a loop: translate, execute, find unresolved jumps and so on, but in > emulation this is imposible because many code are not to be executed until the player has > made something. It isn't good to quit the emulator while the user is playing and start a > new compilation. Exactly - which is why static compilation is only good if the compiler/translator already knows what will need to be done. That's why compatibility is poor with static compilation. > A derivated form would be to make some work before emulation and then work as a dinamic > compiler. For example you can translate in one shot all code until an indirect jump is > found or a input is needed. You can also try to gather some informations as register > usage for later static register assignament or to find basic blocks. Yes, of course. > > Advantages: Fast. Handles self-modifying code. > > Disadvantages: Will still need the author to go into the ROMs to check for > > mapping (unless the recompilation part does this). > > Please, can you explain me a bit this about ROM mapping, I don't see what's the problem. It's more memory handling, really. Nothing to do with the NES (don't get confused!). It's also to do with indirect jumps (how do you handle something like "jmp z0"?). Just stuff which you'd need to know previously when using static compilation. AFAIK there is no term for it, so I created "mapping". Maybe not correct, but it sounds technical. :) If you go through the code and know that z0 would contain "&BB18" then you can include that in the compiler/recompiler. > > Dynamic compilation: > > > > Also known as JIT, dynamic compilation is performed during execution. It > > will translate code in blocks from one CPU to another and then execute that > > code. It gives a fast startup time, but a slower execution time that > > static. > > > Please don't use this Java terminology the JIT or Java Hot Spot are something different > they mix an interpreter with a dynamic compiler and a profiling system. There are several JIT compilers and most of them use dynamic compilation. They don't profile or interepret. Maybe the older stuff does - or maybe HotSpot does (I don't know!), but - whether you like it or not - the latest technologies walk hand-in-hand. > I think not so slow while executing you are going to use the same code all time so you > make, usually, only a translation in the 'beginning' of the run. I didn't say it would be slow - just slower than static compilation. In terms of speed, I imagine them to be 1) Static compilation 2) Dynamic compilation 3) Static recompilation 4) Dynamic recompilation 5) Interpretation > I think dynamic recompilation and dynamic compilation are really the same technique. > I would talk about dynamic compilation with test for self-modifying code or dinamic > generated code. The difference in speed is that you have to check (an this will be > the really time spending part) for code modifications and you have to retranslate. Yes. But that's what I said (they're the same except that you check for code which has changed). :) > Handle self-modifying code can only be useful if the emulated machine don't use very > often self-modifying code or is used only in a known moment or place (at startup, in > some portion-small- from memory). If you have to test every time you write if you > are writing code perhaps it's better to use an interpreter. Depends how good your recompiler/translator is. :) > About static methods, the static recompilation approach I talk about (do some preparing > work) I think could be really useful. Static compilation I think is useless for use > with consoles, perhaps if you build a static compiler for one arcade machine and then you > releases the executable ..., but this would be more illegal than usual emulation so it's > better to don't think about this. I don't know that it would be more illegal. It could even be more legal - because you've translated it, it's not their code anymore - even though it does the same (think of all those Pacman and Tetris clones). That's just a guess, mind. :) However, you've still got to emulate things like sound, graphics and input, so creating a new executable could be quite difficult. But not impossible. > > Comments? > > Yes I like most the 'translation' term than 'compilation' but doesn't matter ;) I noticed, but then it makes it more difficult when I give the list of differences as: static translation static translation dynamic translation dynamic translation ;) I assume that you would replace recompilation with translation. You can't replace both - that would make things even more confusing than they are now! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 07:58:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA09060 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:58:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003211601.RAA00785@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38D78FB5.84E742F8@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 21, 2000 04:05:25 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:01:56 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Please, can you explain me a bit this about ROM mapping, I don't see what's the problem. > > It's more memory handling, really. Nothing to do with the NES (don't get > confused!). It's also to do with indirect jumps (how do you handle > something like "jmp z0"?). Just stuff which you'd need to know previously > when using static compilation. AFAIK there is no term for it, so I created > "mapping". Maybe not correct, but it sounds technical. :) > > If you go through the code and know that z0 would contain "&BB18" then you > can include that in the compiler/recompiler. > Ahh... it was this. Your term confused me so better we find another :), mapping is already used for describe the memory map of a machine (what is ROM, what is RAM, what IO). Perhaps calling it something like 'memory indirection problem' or 'unresolved jumps problem'. > > Yes I like most the 'translation' term than 'compilation' but doesn't matter ;) > > I noticed, but then it makes it more difficult when I give the list of > differences as: > > static translation > static translation > dynamic translation > dynamic translation > > ;) > > I assume that you would replace recompilation with translation. You can't > replace both - that would make things even more confusing than they are > now! :) > Yes, but it's your classification whose is confusing :) Perhaps would be something like that: static translation (static compilation) dynamic translation (dynamic compilation) dynamic translation with static prework (static recompilation) dynamic translation with self-modifying code handling (dynamic recompilation) In fact I'm beginning to think that talk about compilation/recompilation is something confusing and artificial. You have to agree with me that 'static recompilation' (the term, not the idea) born in your discussion some weeks ago in mul8 when trying to summarize terminology about so called 'dynamic recompilation'. I think there are only three main ways of building an emulator: an interpreter, static compilation/translation and dynamic compilation/translation. All others are combinations or modifications or add-ons of this three basic techniques. It's only an my opinion, perhaps I'm wrong :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 08:19:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA09119 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:19:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D7A0AA.998633A2@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:17:46 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003211601.RAA00785@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > If you go through the code and know that z0 would contain "&BB18" then you > > can include that in the compiler/recompiler. > > > Ahh... it was this. Your term confused me so better we find another :), mapping is already > used for describe the memory map of a machine (what is ROM, what is RAM, what IO). Perhaps > calling it something like 'memory indirection problem' or 'unresolved jumps problem'. But you're still mapping to memory... but yes, we'd best find another. "Memory And Register Problems" sounds good, especially because that becomes "MARP" which amuses me. Sorry. :) > > I assume that you would replace recompilation with translation. You can't > > replace both - that would make things even more confusing than they are > > now! :) > > Yes, but it's your classification whose is confusing :) You think so? ;p > Perhaps would be something like that: > > static translation (static compilation) > dynamic translation (dynamic compilation) > dynamic translation with static prework (static recompilation) > dynamic translation with self-modifying code handling (dynamic recompilation) That sounds okay to me. It's just long to type! > In fact I'm beginning to think that talk about compilation/recompilation is something > confusing and artificial. You have to agree with me that 'static recompilation' (the term, > not the idea) born in your discussion some weeks ago in mul8 when trying to summarize > terminology about so called 'dynamic recompilation'. Yes, I agree. Mind you, I'm now set in my way of thinking now after that discussion (it was moved off-list). I think that I'm now actually correct in my terms - a lot of research was done! :o > I think there are only three main ways of building an emulator: an interpreter, static > compilation/translation and dynamic compilation/translation. All others are combinations or > modifications or add-ons of this three basic techniques. What about extra hardware to help the emulation? ;) > It's only an my opinion, perhaps I'm wrong :) In software-only solutions, I think you're probably correct. Unless someone is doing something radically different that we haven't thought of yet. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 08:36:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA09187 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:36:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003211639.RAA24242@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38D7A0AA.998633A2@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 21, 2000 05:17:46 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:39:42 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Ahh... it was this. Your term confused me so better we find another :), mapping is already > > used for describe the memory map of a machine (what is ROM, what is RAM, what IO). Perhaps > > calling it something like 'memory indirection problem' or 'unresolved jumps problem'. > > But you're still mapping to memory... but yes, we'd best find another. > "Memory And Register Problems" sounds good, especially because that becomes > "MARP" which amuses me. Sorry. :) > Means something MARP? > > > I assume that you would replace recompilation with translation. You can't > > > replace both - that would make things even more confusing than they are > > > now! :) > > > > Yes, but it's your classification whose is confusing :) > > You think so? ;p > OK, not so confusing, only a little confusing ;) > > Perhaps would be something like that: > > > > static translation (static compilation) > > dynamic translation (dynamic compilation) > > dynamic translation with static prework (static recompilation) > > dynamic translation with self-modifying code handling (dynamic recompilation) > > That sounds okay to me. It's just long to type! > Umm, perhaps could be shorted as SS,DT,DTS,DTSMC ;) > > In fact I'm beginning to think that talk about compilation/recompilation is something > > confusing and artificial. You have to agree with me that 'static recompilation' (the term, > > not the idea) born in your discussion some weeks ago in mul8 when trying to summarize > > terminology about so called 'dynamic recompilation'. > > Yes, I agree. Mind you, I'm now set in my way of thinking now after that > discussion (it was moved off-list). I think that I'm now actually correct > in my terms - a lot of research was done! :o > For me is OK, perhaps other people thoughts would be interesting. What you say exlurkers and lurkers ;) (Oh..., I don't know what is the translation for lurker, perhaps I'm offending someone ...) > > I think there are only three main ways of building an emulator: an interpreter, static > > compilation/translation and dynamic compilation/translation. All others are combinations or > > modifications or add-ons of this three basic techniques. > > What about extra hardware to help the emulation? ;) Interesting but I think not so practical being emulators in the grey area (but something is changing now with Bleem and VGS -by the way a really good emulator, only a bit slow and with problems with non-american games). Another way will be recompile (true compilation) of the original sources of games, but this we'll be really hard, anyone wants to stole the sources from companys? ;) > > > It's only an my opinion, perhaps I'm wrong :) > > In software-only solutions, I think you're probably correct. Unless someone > is doing something radically different that we haven't thought of yet. :) > Umm ..., perhaps NB, he always have really impresive new ideas :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 11:38:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10076 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:38:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:09:42 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Static compilation: >Advantages: Speed You get pure speed during runtime but with some exceptional large code you'd have a long pause between the launch and the actual start of the program. >Disadvantages: Because of the way it works, Static compilation is going to >run very few ROMs without the author having to go into the ROM(s) and >perform all the mapping work etc. Cannot handle self-modifying code. In some severe cases you need a so-called "fallback" (this is an official term!) mechanism which interprets some parts of the code which cannot be translated. >Static recompilation: >Static recompilation is the same as static compilation in that it does lots >of work before the emulation starts, but will check for self-modifying code >during the execution and will do more translation if required. Will have a >slow startup time and can be slow during emulation too. >Advantages: Fast. Handles self-modifying code. >Disadvantages: Will still need the author to go into the ROMs to check for >mapping (unless the recompilation part does this). In don't think that static recompilation makes much sense since the big advatage of static code is lost then. One other possibility (but nothing to do with self-modifying code) would be to have a static compiler which also generates dynamic code. What I mean is that you mainly have a static compiler which is capable of generating meta-code if necessary. So when you hit a portion of code that cannot be compiled without runtime context you produce code which generates the code during runtime with the information of the runtime context. This method can also be used to optimise certain routines as they might be much more optimal when a few runtime constants are known. This would be static compilation with dynamic code generation. >Dynamic compilation: >Advantages: Fairly fast. Doesn't require former knowledge of the ROMs >before it can run. >Disadvantages: Doesn't handle self-modifying code. >Dynamic recompilation: >Advantages: Fairly fast. Doesn't require former knowledge of the ROMs >before it can run. Handles self-modifying code. >Disadvantages: Not the fastest method. Well, these two are absolutely identical apart from the self-modifying code issue that you can think of the recompiler as an extended compiler or the compiler being a simplified recompiler. >Dynamic compilation should be great for arcade machines where it should be >rare for you to find self-modifying code. Dynamic recompilation should be >great for computers or anywhere where you may find self-modifying code. You could also speed up the recompiler for arcade machines in that ROM code doesn't have to be tested for modifications and you'd still be able to cope with modified code in the RAM. >I >don't particularly like the static methods - I'd rather be able to give my >CPU core some code to translate and let it deal with it - I don't want to >go into the code to give my CPU core some more information before it can >translate it. I think the static method is far too complicated and error prone to be of much use. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 11:38:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10085 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:38:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:19:25 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Please don't use this Java terminology the JIT or Java Hot Spot are something different >they mix an interpreter with a dynamic compiler and a profiling system. JIT is short for just-in-time and it would be just the same to talk of on-the-fly or on-demand translation. BTW, Java doesn't use the interpreter when the JIT compiler is activated, only Sun's HotSpot technology combines both. >About static methods, the static recompilation approach I talk about (do some preparing >work) I think could be really useful. Static compilation I think is useless for use >with consoles, perhaps if you build a static compiler for one arcade machine and then you >releases the executable ..., but this would be more illegal than usual emulation so it's >better to don't think about this. Well, that "one executable" issue is somewhat bad (apart from legal problems) because you also had to include the whole ROM since you cannot be totally sure what code and data is. Even if you knew that you'd have to have the data at the same locations and only could zero out the code and store the ROM compressed. But you still need a relatively large runtime system (maybe even a fallback interpreter) and although that might be ok for one ROM it's much redundancy as soon as you have several ROMs that ran on the same system. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 11:39:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10093 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:39:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:30:29 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> so believe me, one main problem are indirect jumps. >Yes, I know. That's what I mean by mapping work etc. :) Ah, I thought you meant RAM/ROM and data/code mappings... >It's more memory handling, really. Nothing to do with the NES (don't get >confused!). It's also to do with indirect jumps (how do you handle >something like "jmp z0"?). Just stuff which you'd need to know previously >when using static compilation. AFAIK there is no term for it, so I created >"mapping". Maybe not correct, but it sounds technical. :) Maybe we have to find new terms to reduce misunderstandings, but that also includes "dynamic recompilation" ;-) >If you go through the code and know that z0 would contain "&BB18" then you >can include that in the compiler/recompiler. Or you let your generated code generate dynamic code for that case during runtime. >There are several JIT compilers and most of them use dynamic compilation. >They don't profile or interepret. Maybe the older stuff does - or maybe >HotSpot does (I don't know!), but - whether you like it or not - the latest >technologies walk hand-in-hand. HotSpot uses the interpreter in the beginning to gather some profiling information to compile only the "hot spots". >I don't know that it would be more illegal. It would because you had to distribute the ROM with the emulator! >It could even be more legal - >because you've translated it, it's not their code anymore - even though it >does the same (think of all those Pacman and Tetris clones). That's just a >guess, mind. :) You don't use the code but you still use the data, which is copyrighted as well. You couldn't even do a new Sonic game without getting legal problems with Sega even when you're not using their original data! >However, you've still got to emulate things like sound, graphics and input, >so creating a new executable could be quite difficult. But not impossible. Yeah, that's what I meant when I said that you need to include a fairly large runtime for each ROM, which you only have once in an emulator. You might have the runtime system in a dynamic library but you'd still need much interface code in the compiled ROM. >static translation >static translation >dynamic translation >dynamic translation Shouldn't that be: static translation static retranslation dynamic translation dynamic retranslation ??? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 11:39:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10102 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:34:32 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> I think there are only three main ways of building an emulator: an interpreter, static >> compilation/translation and dynamic compilation/translation. All others are combinations or >> modifications or add-ons of this three basic techniques. >What about extra hardware to help the emulation? ;) Indeed. I have a PC card with an AMD processor for my Acorn, so the software only has to emulate graphics, sound, peripherals, interrupts, etc but not the CPU! >In software-only solutions, I think you're probably correct. Unless someone >is doing something radically different that we haven't thought of yet. :) I think I already mentioned decode caching... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 14:10:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10864 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:10:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000201bf9381$7ac5a260$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200003211639.RAA24242@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:51:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > "Memory And Register Problems" sounds good, especially because that becomes > > "MARP" which amuses me. Sorry. :) > > Means something MARP? I don't think so. It does now, anyway. :) > > > Yes, but it's your classification whose is confusing :) > > > > You think so? ;p > > OK, not so confusing, only a little confusing ;) That was my plan all along, to confuse people. ;) > > That sounds okay to me. It's just long to type! > > > Umm, perhaps could be shorted as SS,DT,DTS,DTSMC ;) Those sound like sexually transmitted diseases. :)) Okay, I'm beginning to think I'm warped and twisted... > > Yes, I agree. Mind you, I'm now set in my way of thinking now after that > > discussion (it was moved off-list). I think that I'm now actually correct > > in my terms - a lot of research was done! :o > > > For me is OK, perhaps other people thoughts would be interesting. I'd send you what I recieved, but OE is such a nice program, it decided to corrupt my INBOX.DBX file and so now I've lost all of my mails from my Inbox. I'm very impressed by that. :-/ > What you say exlurkers and lurkers ;) (Oh..., I don't know what is the translation for > lurker, perhaps I'm offending someone ...) A lurker is someone who hides in the shadows (so someone who is hiding is lurking). So unless someones name is "Mr. Lurk" then I don't think you'll offend anyone. Let's hope so, anyway! :) > > What about extra hardware to help the emulation? ;) > > Interesting but I think not so practical being emulators in the grey area (but something is > changing now with Bleem and VGS -by the way a really good emulator, only a bit slow and with > problems with non-american games). Another way will be recompile (true compilation) of the > original sources of games, but this we'll be really hard, anyone wants to stole the > sources from companys? ;) In fact, we've had extra hardware to help emulation for years, it's not just interesting. As Mike mentioned, there are PC Cards available for Acorn machines - there are 68K cards for PC owners - all sorts of things. :) And if you provide me with a black suit and mask and some equpment (including rope), I'll get you the source from the companies. ;)) > > In software-only solutions, I think you're probably correct. Unless someone > > is doing something radically different that we haven't thought of yet. :) > > Umm ..., perhaps NB, he always have really impresive new ideas :) Is *that* what he tells you? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 14:10:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10874 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000401bf9381$7c7a0920$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:55:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Static compilation: > >Advantages: Speed > > You get pure speed during runtime but with some exceptional large code > you'd have a long pause between the launch and the actual start of the > program. That's what I thought originally, but then I saw Corn. Does this *really* use static compilation? If it does, it's really fast! > In don't think that static recompilation makes much sense since the big > advatage of static code is lost then. Agreed. Static recompilation takes the worst of both worlds. > >Advantages: Fairly fast. Doesn't require former knowledge of the ROMs > >before it can run. Handles self-modifying code. > >Disadvantages: Not the fastest method. > > Well, these two are absolutely identical apart from the self-modifying > code issue that you can think of the recompiler as an extended compiler > or the compiler being a simplified recompiler. Yes, but if you're only going to compile once, you can optimise better. Maybe. > >Dynamic compilation should be great for arcade machines where it > should be > >rare for you to find self-modifying code. Dynamic recompilation should > be > >great for computers or anywhere where you may find self-modifying > code. > > You could also speed up the recompiler for arcade machines in that ROM > code doesn't have to be tested for modifications and you'd still be > able to cope with modified code in the RAM. Yes, that would be fine. > I think the static method is far too complicated and error prone to be > of much use. Agreed. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 14:10:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10881 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:10:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf9381$7bc16780$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:53:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Please don't use this Java terminology the JIT or Java Hot Spot are > something different > >they mix an interpreter with a dynamic compiler and a profiling > system. > > JIT is short for just-in-time and it would be just the same to talk of > on-the-fly or on-demand translation. BTW, Java doesn't use the > interpreter when the JIT compiler is activated, only Sun's HotSpot > technology combines both. Yep. As I've probably mentioned before, I did quite a bit of research on Java last year. I'm still not entirely sure why I did it, but there you go. You can't explain everything. One of those things, I guess. :) > >About static methods, the static recompilation approach I talk about > (do some preparing > >work) I think could be really useful. Static compilation I think is > useless for use > >with consoles, perhaps if you build a static compiler for one arcade > machine and then you > >releases the executable ..., but this would be more illegal than usual > emulation so it's > >better to don't think about this. > > Well, that "one executable" issue is somewhat bad (apart from legal > problems) because you also had to include the whole ROM since you > cannot be totally sure what code and data is. Even if you knew that > you'd have to have the data at the same locations and only could zero > out the code and store the ROM compressed. But you still need a > relatively large runtime system (maybe even a fallback interpreter) and > although that might be ok for one ROM it's much redundancy as soon as > you have several ROMs that ran on the same system. If you compile into an executable, if you take the sounds and graphics too, you can link them into the executable too - getting rid of the need for the ROMs. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 14:10:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10889 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:10:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000501bf9381$7d543c80$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:57:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Yes, I know. That's what I mean by mapping work etc. :) > > Ah, I thought you meant RAM/ROM and data/code mappings... Apparently so did Victor. My fault. :) > Maybe we have to find new terms to reduce misunderstandings, but that > also includes "dynamic recompilation" ;-) How about "That technique that people talk about everywhere without knowing what it actually is"? :) > >There are several JIT compilers and most of them use dynamic > compilation. > >They don't profile or interepret. Maybe the older stuff does - or > maybe > >HotSpot does (I don't know!), but - whether you like it or not - the > latest > >technologies walk hand-in-hand. > > HotSpot uses the interpreter in the beginning to gather some profiling > information to compile only the "hot spots". Wasn't sure. Never read up on HotSpot. > >I don't know that it would be more illegal. > > It would because you had to distribute the ROM with the emulator! Not at all (see previous e-mail). > You don't use the code but you still use the data, which is copyrighted > as well. You couldn't even do a new Sonic game without getting legal > problems with Sega even when you're not using their original data! But that's because they've copyrighted that character. > >static translation > >static translation > >dynamic translation > >dynamic translation > > Shouldn't that be: > > static translation > static retranslation > dynamic translation > dynamic retranslation No, I was teasing Victor when I wrote it. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 15:02:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11208 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:02:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:57:05 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Apparently so did Victor. My fault. :) Tua culpa! >How about "That technique that people talk about everywhere without knowing >what it actually is"? :) Then could as well use the following name: "Dymble (the technique formerly known as dynamic recompilation)" ;-) >No, I was teasing Victor when I wrote it. :) You bastard! ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 15:02:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11218 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:03:38 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >That's what I thought originally, but then I saw Corn. Does this * really* >use static compilation? If it does, it's really fast! Yeah, I couldn't believe it as well. But since it now uses dynamic recompilation because the static one wasn't compatible enough, I guess it really used static recompilation. >Agreed. Static recompilation takes the worst of both worlds. Eloquently put ;-) >Yes, but if you're only going to compile once, you can optimise better. >Maybe. Mayhaps ;-) >> You could also speed up the recompiler for arcade machines in that ROM >> code doesn't have to be tested for modifications and you'd still be >> able to cope with modified code in the RAM. >Yes, that would be fine. If you know where the ROM is then you should exploit the information by not checking it for code changes of course, which should speed up arcade emulation even if you use dynamic recompilation. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 15:02:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11222 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:02:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:00:14 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >If you compile into an executable, if you take the sounds and graphics too, >you can link them into the executable too - getting rid of the need for the >ROMs. But the question is if the linked ROM is more legal... I know of at least one case where it made a difference. Although it's illegal to distribute the BBC Micro ROMs the official emulator 65Host, which had the ROMs linked, was freeware and you just need a small tool to rip the ROMs from it ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:26:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13174 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:26:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8759D.D94F8C41@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:26:21 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > In don't think that static recompilation makes much sense since the big > advatage of static code is lost then. One other possibility (but > nothing to do with self-modifying code) would be to have a static > compiler which also generates dynamic code. What I mean is that you > mainly have a static compiler which is capable of generating meta-code > if necessary. So when you hit a portion of code that cannot be compiled > without runtime context you produce code which generates the code > during runtime with the information of the runtime context. This method > can also be used to optimise certain routines as they might be much > more optimal when a few runtime constants are known. > This would be static compilation with dynamic code generation. > Ufff...., dynamic code generation (a dynamic dynamic compiler may be) would be something really hard to implement ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:31:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13194 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:31:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8769F.64496D5A@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:30:39 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > >> so believe me, one main problem are indirect jumps. > >Yes, I know. That's what I mean by mapping work etc. :) > > Ah, I thought you meant RAM/ROM and data/code mappings... > NG you are confusing us ;) > > >It's more memory handling, really. Nothing to do with the NES (don't > get > >confused!). It's also to do with indirect jumps (how do you handle > >something like "jmp z0"?). Just stuff which you'd need to know > previously > >when using static compilation. AFAIK there is no term for it, so I > created > >"mapping". Maybe not correct, but it sounds technical. :) > > Maybe we have to find new terms to reduce misunderstandings, but that > also includes "dynamic recompilation" ;-) > Yes this will be something interesting. I think build some 'standard' terms is necessary or will be hard to explain what is 'dynamic recompilation' to other people, too misunderstandings. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:34:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13217 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:34:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D87752.1A7A572F@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:33:38 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Indeed. I have a PC card with an AMD processor for my Acorn, so the > software only has to emulate graphics, sound, peripherals, interrupts, > etc but not the CPU! > Oh, I don't know much about others computers others than PCs :( > > >In software-only solutions, I think you're probably correct. Unless > someone > >is doing something radically different that we haven't thought of yet. > :) > > I think I already mentioned decode caching... > Try to explain a little what is decode caching. I think I know it as a threaded interpreter but I'm not sure if it's the same technique. This would be to have a map of the memory which each entry is a pointer to a routine that handles the emulated instruction in this memory address. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:37:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13229 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8781C.A49653F4@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:37:00 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <000501bf9381$7d543c80$0a909090@okay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > How about "That technique that people talk about everywhere without knowing > what it actually is"? :) > Ohh, it's a good idea :)) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:37:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13238 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8777A.FB0B8BAA@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:34:18 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Apparently so did Victor. My fault. :) > > Tua culpa! Et al. :) > >How about "That technique that people talk about everywhere without > knowing > >what it actually is"? :) > > Then could as well use the following name: > "Dymble (the technique formerly known as dynamic recompilation)" > ;-) I'd like to refer to it as "Splish". Makes no sense, but it's a great sounding word. :) > >No, I was teasing Victor when I wrote it. :) > > You bastard! ;-) What? I didn't kill Kenny! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:39:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13255 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:39:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8781A.BBC3A214@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:36:58 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >That's what I thought originally, but then I saw Corn. Does this * > really* > >use static compilation? If it does, it's really fast! > > Yeah, I couldn't believe it as well. But since it now uses dynamic > recompilation because the static one wasn't compatible enough, I guess > it really used static recompilation. The compatibility went up?! I didn't notice that! :o > >Agreed. Static recompilation takes the worst of both worlds. > > Eloquently put ;-) Why, thank you! ;) > >Yes, but if you're only going to compile once, you can optimise > better. > >Maybe. > > Mayhaps ;-) Mind you, in a dynamic recompiler you can keep count of how many times a certain routine has been run and optimise as necessary. Someone did say that this technique had a name, but I don't know what it is. Therefore, I will now name this technique "Splosh". Can you tell that I didn't get much sleep last night? :)) > >Yes, that would be fine. > > If you know where the ROM is then you should exploit the information by > not checking it for code changes of course, which should speed up > arcade emulation even if you use dynamic recompilation. Yes, this is true. Something that I don't think has been attempted yet. Well done! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:41:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13267 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:41:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8789D.1472F18@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:39:09 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <38D8759D.D94F8C41@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Ufff...., dynamic code generation (a dynamic dynamic compiler may be) would be > something really hard to implement ;) Agreed. And I don't think it would be worth it - but that's because I don't like the static technique. I don't really see the need for it at the moment... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:42:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13280 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:42:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8790F.3427040D@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:41:03 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <38D8769F.64496D5A@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Ah, I thought you meant RAM/ROM and data/code mappings... > > NG you are confusing us ;) Haha! My plan worked in all its glory! ;)) > > Maybe we have to find new terms to reduce misunderstandings, but that > > also includes "dynamic recompilation" ;-) > > Yes this will be something interesting. I think build some 'standard' terms is > necessary or will be hard to explain what is 'dynamic recompilation' to other > people, too misunderstandings. Okay, I'll write a short document up this weekend explaining the terminology. Hopefully it'll be definitive. :) Alternatively, I could just confuse everybody. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:47:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13300 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:47:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8797B.8BC4EE21@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:42:51 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <38D87752.1A7A572F@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Indeed. I have a PC card with an AMD processor for my Acorn, so the > > software only has to emulate graphics, sound, peripherals, interrupts, > > etc but not the CPU! > > Oh, I don't know much about others computers others than PCs :( You have no excuse! ;) Actually, there's an emulator called Gem* (can't remember the rest, but it's probably Gemulator) which is either an Atari ST or Amiga emulator which uses hardware. That's for the PC. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:48:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13309 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:48:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D879F4.424FE0AD@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:44:52 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <000501bf9381$7d543c80$0a909090@okay> <38D8781C.A49653F4@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > How about "That technique that people talk about everywhere without knowing > > what it actually is"? :) > > Ohh, it's a good idea :)) Thanks. ;) I mean, how can anyone forget the acronym "TTTPTAEWKWIAI". You just can't forget that, and think how easy it is to pronounce! Hmm. That acronym looks remarkably similar to German, actually... ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 21 23:56:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13324 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D87C8E.C50824EF@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:55:58 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <000501bf9381$7d543c80$0a909090@okay> <38D8781C.A49653F4@est.fib.upc.es> <38D879F4.424FE0AD@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > Hi, > > > > How about "That technique that people talk about everywhere without knowing > > > what it actually is"? :) > > > > Ohh, it's a good idea :)) > > Thanks. ;) > > I mean, how can anyone forget the acronym "TTTPTAEWKWIAI". You just can't > forget that, and think how easy it is to pronounce! > It's really easy to pronounce! ;) > > Hmm. That acronym looks remarkably similar to German, actually... ;) > Perhaps has too vowels to be german ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 00:19:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA13387 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:19:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D88132.F6FD334@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:15:46 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <000501bf9381$7d543c80$0a909090@okay> <38D8781C.A49653F4@est.fib.upc.es> <38D879F4.424FE0AD@eurocopter.de> <38D87C8E.C50824EF@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Thanks. ;) > > > > I mean, how can anyone forget the acronym "TTTPTAEWKWIAI". You just can't > > forget that, and think how easy it is to pronounce! > > It's really easy to pronounce! ;) Yeah! ;) > > Hmm. That acronym looks remarkably similar to German, actually... ;) > > Perhaps has too vowels to be german ;) Yeah. And it doesn't finish with a hard sound either. No spit was involved to pronounce the word. :)) BTW, that's last time I tell someone I speak French. On the Mul8 mailing list a guy was asking some questions. I could see he was from Vietnam - and knowing that Vietnam used to be French, told him that if he spoke it, he was welcome to ask me some questions. I mean, it was from an English document, so if all else failed, I could guess. But no, I've just got a whole letter from him - and he *definitely* has better French than me! :)) Never mind, it's just taking me longer than it would normally to translate it! AAARGH! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 00:31:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA13425 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D884C3.F170B357@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:30:59 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <000501bf9381$7d543c80$0a909090@okay> <38D8781C.A49653F4@est.fib.upc.es> <38D879F4.424FE0AD@eurocopter.de> <38D87C8E.C50824EF@est.fib.upc.es> <38D88132.F6FD334@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > BTW, that's last time I tell someone I speak French. On the Mul8 mailing > list a guy was asking some questions. I could see he was from Vietnam - and > knowing that Vietnam used to be French, told him that if he spoke it, he > was welcome to ask me some questions. I mean, it was from an English > document, so if all else failed, I could guess. But no, I've just got a > whole letter from him - and he *definitely* has better French than me! :)) > > Never mind, it's just taking me longer than it would normally to translate > it! > > AAARGH! :) > This seems as I would have said I speak japanese, I only know a few words :) I think I can understand some french because resembles a little spanish and catalonian but I can't write it. BTW this fucking Netscape has resorted all my messages in dynarec folder by sender name, before they we're by sending time and now is a nightmare to find messages ... Do you know if I can arrange this? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 00:33:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA13434 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:33:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8850E.F703F38D@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:32:14 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <000501bf9381$7d543c80$0a909090@okay> <38D8781C.A49653F4@est.fib.upc.es> <38D879F4.424FE0AD@eurocopter.de> <38D87C8E.C50824EF@est.fib.upc.es> <38D88132.F6FD334@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Forget last message I have found what was happening ... :o Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 01:36:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13552 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:36:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003220939.KAA32762@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38D8790F.3427040D@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 22, 2000 08:41:03 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:39:03 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > Ah, I thought you meant RAM/ROM and data/code mappings... > > > > NG you are confusing us ;) > > Haha! My plan worked in all its glory! ;)) > How evil are you ;)) > > > Maybe we have to find new terms to reduce misunderstandings, but that > > > also includes "dynamic recompilation" ;-) > > > > Yes this will be something interesting. I think build some 'standard' terms is > > necessary or will be hard to explain what is 'dynamic recompilation' to other > > people, too misunderstandings. > > Okay, I'll write a short document up this weekend explaining the > terminology. Hopefully it'll be definitive. :) > > Alternatively, I could just confuse everybody. :)) > You will write a document using your terminology? I still like more my own terminology althought I agree with you I used too large names, perhaps if a better names are found ... I have thought in do a votation (is this the right word?) between dynarec members or perhaps too between mul8 members about what terminology is better. If we want finally to get a standard is better people could agree with it and then perhaps they would use it. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 01:55:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13594 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:55:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D89769.E091CBC0@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:50:33 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003220939.KAA32762@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Haha! My plan worked in all its glory! ;)) > > > How evil are you ;)) I will rule the world! Ahahahahaaaaa! Oh, erm... *ahem* ;) > > Okay, I'll write a short document up this weekend explaining the > > terminology. Hopefully it'll be definitive. :) > > > > Alternatively, I could just confuse everybody. :)) > > You will write a document using your terminology? I still like more my own > terminology althought I agree with you I used too large names, perhaps if > a better names are found ... I have thought in do a votation (is this the > right word?) between dynarec members or perhaps too between mul8 members about > what terminology is better. If we want finally to get a standard is better > people could agree with it and then perhaps they would use it. Before we can change any terminology we've got to make sure that everyone knows what it *currently* is! So if you have a definition for dynamic recompilation, then people need to know what dynamic recompilation actually is. Your definition, whether it is more correct (that's really bad grammar!), cannot do much when people don't actually know what it is. Tell you what, we'll have a vote (vote is the singular AND the verb!) about what terms we like best. Then I'll mention them in my document. We can have a revolution! An emu revolution! Heh, doesn't that sound like a song? Hey, Neil, you've got some words for the next song you compose. ;) Anyway, so long as we agree on the methodology, the terms don't matter. So we need to decide on the terms for the correct methodology and live with them. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 02:27:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA13814 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:27:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003221027.LAA04105@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38D89769.E091CBC0@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 22, 2000 10:50:33 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:27:13 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > Haha! My plan worked in all its glory! ;)) > > > > > How evil are you ;)) > > I will rule the world! Ahahahahaaaaa! > > Oh, erm... *ahem* ;) > Ok, if you will rule the world please let me rule a lost hidden small island somewhere where I can live in peace writing emulators ;) > > > Okay, I'll write a short document up this weekend explaining the > > > terminology. Hopefully it'll be definitive. :) > > > > > > Alternatively, I could just confuse everybody. :)) > > > > You will write a document using your terminology? I still like more my own > > terminology althought I agree with you I used too large names, perhaps if > > a better names are found ... I have thought in do a votation (is this the > > right word?) between dynarec members or perhaps too between mul8 members about > > what terminology is better. If we want finally to get a standard is better > > people could agree with it and then perhaps they would use it. > > Before we can change any terminology we've got to make sure that everyone > knows what it *currently* is! So if you have a definition for dynamic > recompilation, then people need to know what dynamic recompilation actually > is. Your definition, whether it is more correct (that's really bad > grammar!), cannot do much when people don't actually know what it is. > My definitions are in fact the same as yours, it's the terminology what I don't like. Your way of call methodologies have created something so ugly as 'static recompilation' is, with has no use as you define it. Talk about static translation (or compilation if you like more this word) and dynamic translation has a lot of sense. These are in my thoughts the main techniques. All other techniques related to 'translation' or 'compilation' are extensions, combinations and modifications to these two. When you make a translation from a source code to a target code you can do it statically or dynamically there isn't other ways. Then you can have algorithms to deal with problems as self-modifying code or unresolved jump address or whatever that are extensions to this techniques. You can also combine it but this isn't a new tech, it's the old ones combined. A better classification would be to have two (thee with interpreter and perhaps some more if we count hardware emulation and this decode caching tech I don't how it works) main techniques and then a subtree of techniques derived from these root techniques. > Tell you what, we'll have a vote (vote is the singular AND the verb!) about > what terms we like best. Then I'll mention them in my document. We can have > a revolution! An emu revolution! Heh, doesn't that sound like a song? Hey, > Neil, you've got some words for the next song you compose. ;) > We will change emulation world!!! ;) > Anyway, so long as we agree on the methodology, the terms don't matter. So > we need to decide on the terms for the correct methodology and live with > them. :) > I agree with you but It's fun talk about terminology too :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 03:09:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA13895 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:09:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003221112.MAA19697@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation0x10038ed8 (getscore+0x124) 7c671814 a r3,r7,r3 In-Reply-To: <200003221027.LAA04105@pons.ac.upc.es> from Victor Moya del Barrio at "Mar 22, 2000 11:27:13 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:12:42 +0100 (MET) CC: cont@ac.upc.es X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 03:28:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA13940 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003221131.MAA07416@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <200003221027.LAA04105@pons.ac.upc.es> from Victor Moya del Barrio at "Mar 22, 2000 11:27:13 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:31:34 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Sorry for this last message. I hope noone gets hurt. I pressed middle mouse button in my X-Terminal when I was over mail window ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14058 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:50:51 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >NG you are confusing us ;) Why don't you do a few new lyrics for the song "Land of Confusion"? ;-) >Yes this will be something interesting. I think build some 'standard' terms is >necessary or >will be hard to explain what is 'dynamic recompilation' to other people, too >misunderstandings. Indeed! The only problem is that the term dynarec is well established even though most people don't really know what it means! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14063 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:04:23 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Okay, I'll write a short document up this weekend explaining the >terminology. Hopefully it'll be definitive. :) >Alternatively, I could just confuse everybody. :)) I guess it will be the latter case ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14075 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:56:27 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Oh, I don't know much about others computers others than PCs :( Shame on you! Well, at least you're interested in emulation ;-) My interest in computers began with the C64 but I never could have one which might be the main reason for my interest in emulators! Then I worked with the Atari ST for several years, switched to an Acorn RiscPC (I guess you know it, NG) and after some years I added a PC. >Try to explain a little what is decode caching. I think I know it as a >threaded interpreter but I'm not sure if it's the same technique. This would >be to have a map of the memory which each entry is a pointer to a routine that >handles the emulated >instruction in this memory address. Yeah, that's about it. But you also store the "arguments" (addresses, registers) which can be predecoded as well, eg. address to the register instead of the register number or a byteswapped literal. Otherwise you're right that the address of the routine is stored and just has to be called via a function pointer. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14076 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:48:44 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ufff...., dynamic code generation (a dynamic dynamic compiler may be) would be >something >really hard to implement ;) Sure, but sounds like something for your Daisy project ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14092 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:59:03 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Tua culpa! >Et al. :) You know even Latin?! I have to admit that I don't know if mine is correct... >I'd like to refer to it as "Splish". Makes no sense, but it's a great >sounding word. :) Yeah, but only for static trans, the dynamic one had to be called Dish. >> You bastard! ;-) >What? I didn't kill Kenny! ;) Quite a weird episode! Kenny isn't dead yet?? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14091 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:05:08 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Actually, there's an emulator called Gem* (can't remember the rest, but >it's probably Gemulator) which is either an Atari ST or Amiga emulator >which uses hardware. That's for the PC. Yeah, it's called Gemulator, but I think it's for ST and Mac... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14106 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:09:43 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I mean, how can anyone forget the acronym "TTTPTAEWKWIAI". You just can't >forget that, and think how easy it is to pronounce! You could post a Wave that we know how you pronounce it ;-) >Hmm. That acronym looks remarkably similar to German, actually... ;) Well, the new spelling rules lead to three consonants in a row sometimes but never at the beginning of a word. Five consonants in a row is impossible even in German. TAE is Korean BTW, and WIAI could be Korean or Japanese... But the main reason why it cannot be German: it's too short! ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14110 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:14:37 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yeah. And it doesn't finish with a hard sound either. No spit was involved >to pronounce the word. :)) Don't you like wet language? ;-) BTW, I hope you know the German "Auslautverhaertung" (I guess this is what you mean). This means that "Kind" is spoken as [kint] but "Kinder" as [kinda]. In Middle High German it actually was written as "kint", but a modern principle called "Stammschreibung" changed that. >BTW, that's last time I tell someone I speak French. On the Mul8 mailing >list a guy was asking some questions. I could see he was from Vietnam - and >knowing that Vietnam used to be French, told him that if he spoke it, he >was welcome to ask me some questions. I mean, it was from an English >document, so if all else failed, I could guess. But no, I've just got a >whole letter from him - and he *definitely* has better French than me! :)) >Never mind, it's just taking me longer than it would normally to translate >it! >AAARGH! :) Your fault again ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 04:32:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14118 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:03:15 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com [Corn] >The compatibility went up?! I didn't notice that! :o Up and down ;-) I don't have enough ROMs to test it, but it's said to run more games than just Mario, but it doesn't run *any* 2D software anymore... >Mind you, in a dynamic recompiler you can keep count of how many times a >certain routine has been run and optimise as necessary. Someone did say >that this technique had a name, but I don't know what it is. Therefore, I >will now name this technique "Splosh". Splish, Splash, Splosh - sounds a bit wet, doesn't it? ;-) >Can you tell that I didn't get much sleep last night? :)) Noooo! How could we even dare to assume that? >> If you know where the ROM is then you should exploit the information by >> not checking it for code changes of course, which should speed up >> arcade emulation even if you use dynamic recompilation. >Yes, this is true. Something that I don't think has been attempted yet. >Well done! ;) Are you sure it wasn't done yet? I mean it's just obvious! I bet that NB had the same idea. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 05:53:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA14330 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 05:53:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:15:53 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >You will write a document using your terminology? I still like more my own >terminology althought I agree with you I used too large names, perhaps if >a better names are found ... I have thought in do a votation (is this the >right word?) I think you mean an opinion poll... >between dynarec members or perhaps too between mul8 members about >what terminology is better. If we want finally to get a standard is better >people could agree with it and then perhaps they would use it. Uh, lots of laymen voting for terminology they don't understand? The results might be interesting but probably to very useful... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 05:53:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA14337 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 05:53:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:45:26 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I will rule the world! Ahahahahaaaaa! Good, then I don't have to work anymore... >Before we can change any terminology we've got to make sure that everyone >knows what it *currently* is! So if you have a definition for dynamic >recompilation, then people need to know what dynamic recompilation actually >is. Indeed! >Your definition, whether it is more correct (that's really bad >grammar!), cannot do much when people don't actually know what it is. Hehe, I think you're already influenced by German grammar ;-) >Tell you what, we'll have a vote (vote is the singular AND the verb!) about >what terms we like best. Then I'll mention them in my document. We can have >a revolution! An emu revolution! A man runs through the streets of Paris shouting "Menstruation! Menstruation!". Someone asks him, "Don't you mean 'revolution'?" He replies: "It doesn't matter, as long as I see blood!" ;-) >Anyway, so long as we agree on the methodology, the terms don't matter. So >we need to decide on the terms for the correct methodology and live with >them. :) Yeah, and even we have some misunderstandings... Let's do it again - my classification: * Dynamic vs. static translation, where static means prior to runtime and dynamic that translation is done on demand. The differences aren't that big as it seems, because you could do a translation prior to runtime but don't translate the whole thing. On the other hand when you decide that you want to translate more than just one block in dynamic translation (no limit is specified by the term) you could end up with the whole translation for small examples, which would then be static recompilation. I think the distiction isn't really that easy! * Generation in memory or to file - this might also be called volatile against non-volatile. Well, dynarecs normally generate the code in memory but FX!32 stores transation units in a database. Also static translation normally refers to a process where a new executable is produced, but in NG's terminology it can also be directed to memory. IMHO the generation of a new executable is only useful if you have clean code with no hardware references apart from the CPU where only system calls have to mapped. * Dynamic code generation vs. preassembled code templates. Either you can really generate code with code emitters or you have a file which looks a bit like an assembly optimised interpreter but which is a template library from which you copy code snippets into the generated block and set a few parameters. Obviously I agree with NB and think that the latter approach is just crap but it's used relatively often nevertheless so we have to cover it. * The last point is NG distiction between compilation and recompilation, which mainly means that either self-modifying code is being detected or the compiler doesn care. With this classification NB's method could be called: volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code detection (yet) This surely is a bit long (though more precise than just to say "dynarec"), so if anyone has a good idea what term is shorter but similar precise... BTW, I even forgot one classification: * TLB vs. TransMap... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:03:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14491 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:03:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8DE81.DEB857ED@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:53:53 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Oh, I don't know much about others computers others than PCs :( > > Shame on you! Well, at least you're interested in emulation ;-) Yes, it's one way to get to know computers other than PCs. Intimately. You could end up doing what I'm doing and emulating something you've never really used before. :) > My interest in computers began with the C64 but I never could have one > which might be the main reason for my interest in emulators! Then I > worked with the Atari ST for several years, switched to an Acorn RiscPC > (I guess you know it, NG) and after some years I added a PC. I know the Acorn RiscPC very well. My school was invited to go to a demonstration when they released the first RiscPC and they sent me (because I knew more than anybody!) instead - I went with 2 friends. Quite interesting, but I think the highlight of that day was when a man said to the PR guy "So, what does RISC stand for anyway?" and the guy didn't know. The bigger highlight was when no-one else in the room knew either, apart from me. So I told them. Which probably made them hate me because I was about 15 or 16 at the time. :)) I think I've still got one of those Acorn RiscPC drinks mats somewhere at home. Or I could have thrown it away. :) I remember being very impressed with the whole thing, but then I was young and impressionable. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:04:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14502 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8DFBE.DADDA27E@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:59:10 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >> Tua culpa! > >Et al. :) > > You know even Latin?! Some, yes. English makes heavy use of Latin. :) > I have to admit that I don't know if mine is correct... AFAIK it wasn't. I think you meant "Tia culpa!" because I know that phrase. > >I'd like to refer to it as "Splish". Makes no sense, but it's a great > >sounding word. :) > > Yeah, but only for static trans, the dynamic one had to be called Dish. I was going to call it flish... ;) > >> You bastard! ;-) > >What? I didn't kill Kenny! ;) > > Quite a weird episode! Kenny isn't dead yet?? I'll just ask him. "Are you dead?" "Mmmm! Mmm mmm MMMMMM!" I'm taking that as a no. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:12:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14541 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:12:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8E20E.94D2D012@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:09:02 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I mean, how can anyone forget the acronym "TTTPTAEWKWIAI". You just > >can't forget that, and think how easy it is to pronounce! > > You could post a Wave that we know how you pronounce it ;-) You could always drop something heavy on your foot and learn how to pronounce it all by yourself. ;) > >Hmm. That acronym looks remarkably similar to German, actually... ;) > > Well, the new spelling rules lead to three consonants in a row > sometimes but never at the beginning of a word. Five consonants in a > row is impossible even in German. No, surely not! ;)) > TAE is Korean BTW, and WIAI could be Korean or Japanese... > But the main reason why it cannot be German: it's too short! ;-) Yes, that's true. Okay. Maybe it's Dutch or something... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:12:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14549 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:12:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8E1AA.A85E49E2@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:07:22 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Therefore, I will now name this technique "Splosh". > > Splish, Splash, Splosh - sounds a bit wet, doesn't it? ;-) Well, water affects electricity. That has nothing to do with it, it was just something to say. :) > >Can you tell that I didn't get much sleep last night? :)) > > Noooo! How could we even dare to assume that? I really must learn to go to bed BEFORE 3am when I have to be up at 7. I've noticed that when I start programming, I lose track of time. And - eventually - sleep. And when you work 10 hour days, that's a bad thing! > >Yes, this is true. Something that I don't think has been attempted > >yet. Well done! ;) > > Are you sure it wasn't done yet? I mean it's just obvious! I bet that > NB had the same idea. If it has been done, it hasn't been documented. At least, not that I've read... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:19:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14578 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:19:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8E40F.C2E0836@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:17:35 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I think you mean an opinion poll... Yes, that's probably a better word for it. > >between dynarec members or perhaps too between mul8 members about > >what terminology is better. If we want finally to get a standard is > better > >people could agree with it and then perhaps they would use it. > > Uh, lots of laymen voting for terminology they don't understand? The > results might be interesting but probably to very useful... Yes, I'd suggest not doing it on mul8. At least here we *pretend* to know what we're talking about. Over there they don't pretend - they really don't. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:24:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14602 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:22:53 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes, it's one way to get to know computers other than PCs. Intimately. You >could end up doing what I'm doing and emulating something you've never >really used before. :) Yeah, what I love most is to figure out how an operating system works that I never used before ;-) >I know the Acorn RiscPC very well. My school was invited to go to a >demonstration when they released the first RiscPC and they sent me (because >I knew more than anybody!) instead - I went with 2 friends. Quite >interesting, but I think the highlight of that day was when a man said to >the PR guy "So, what does RISC stand for anyway?" and the guy didn't know. >The bigger highlight was when no-one else in the room knew either, apart >from me. So I told them. Which probably made them hate me because I was >about 15 or 16 at the time. :)) Hehe. Then it surely wasn't Steve Furber! The ARM was mainly developed by two people: Steve Furber (implementation), who is now a professor at Manchester university, and Sophie Wilson (architecture). And the ARM was really the first commercial RISC processor in the world! >I think I've still got one of those Acorn RiscPC drinks mats somewhere at >home. Or I could have thrown it away. :) I still have my Clan Acorn member card... nostalgia! >I remember being very impressed with the whole thing, but then I was young >and impressionable. ;) The RPC is still impressing. Sometimes it's great to see how fast software can be on such outdated technology. You have to see the Iron Dignity demo to believe what's all possible without 3D hardware! The joke is that some guys now even use TechWriter to open Word documents which cannot be opened by Word anymore and when you save these in Word format from TechWriter they work again. Not to mention that TechWriter is much more stable than Word and fits onto a single floppy disk if you don't include the dictionary! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:24:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14609 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:25:23 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Some, yes. English makes heavy use of Latin. :) I know. >AFAIK it wasn't. I think you meant "Tia culpa!" because I know that phrase. Don't ask me. The last time I translated Latin (Carmina Burana) I used a Latin dictionary very heavily! >I was going to call it flish... ;) Sounds a bit like fish... >I'll just ask him. "Are you dead?" "Mmmm! Mmm mmm MMMMMM!" >I'm taking that as a no. ;) How can you tell? It might have been his death screams ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:40:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14663 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:40:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:37:20 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> I think you mean an opinion poll... >Yes, that's probably a better word for it. Hey, and I even didn't have to look it up in the dictionary! >Yes, I'd suggest not doing it on mul8. At least here we *pretend* to know >what we're talking about. Only speak for yourself ;-) >Over there they don't pretend - they really don't. ;) Or they pretend not to know ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:40:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14671 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:38:35 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Five consonants in a >> row is impossible even in German. >No, surely not! ;)) Example? >Yes, that's true. Okay. Maybe it's Dutch or something... :) What about Finnish? ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:40:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14678 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:40:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:41:30 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Well, water affects electricity. >That has nothing to do with it, it was just something to say. :) It seems so. >I really must learn to go to bed BEFORE 3am when I have to be up at 7. I've >noticed that when I start programming, I lose track of time. And - >eventually - sleep. And when you work 10 hour days, that's a bad thing! Maybe you just need an alarm clock ;-) >If it has been done, it hasn't been documented. At least, not that I've >read... That's the problem with dynarecs. Either you notice how bad they are in the open sources or they don't even tell you what tricks they've used - maybe to spare us a good laugh because they've done it bad as well... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 08:03:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA14788 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D8EDDE.A38971B@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:59:26 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I will rule the world! Ahahahahaaaaa! > > Good, then I don't have to work anymore... Ooh, I don't know about that... ;) > >Your definition, whether it is more correct (that's really bad > >grammar!), cannot do much when people don't actually know what it is. > > Hehe, I think you're already influenced by German grammar ;-) I'm getting worried! > >Tell you what, we'll have a vote (vote is the singular AND the verb!) > about > >what terms we like best. Then I'll mention them in my document. We can > have > >a revolution! An emu revolution! > > A man runs through the streets of Paris shouting "Menstruation! > Menstruation!". > Someone asks him, "Don't you mean 'revolution'?" > He replies: "It doesn't matter, as long as I see blood!" > ;-) You're one sick person, you know? ;) > >Anyway, so long as we agree on the methodology, the terms don't > matter. So > >we need to decide on the terms for the correct methodology and live > with > >them. :) > > Yeah, and even we have some misunderstandings... I think we're okay now. It just requires clarification... > I think the distiction isn't really that easy! Static: performed before emulation Dynamic: performed during emulation Not difficult. :) > Well, dynarecs normally generate the code in memory but FX!32 stores > transation units in a database. Also static translation normally refers > to a process where a new executable is produced, but in NG's > terminology it can also be directed to memory. Of course. This can be seen in other emus - like the old Corn thing. > * The last point is NG distiction between compilation and > recompilation, which mainly means that either self-modifying code is > being detected or the compiler doesn care. Which is the only way to make sense of it all, IMO. > With this classification NB's method could be called: > volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code > detection (yet) > > This surely is a bit long (though more precise than just to say > "dynarec"), so if anyone has a good idea what term is shorter but > similar precise... Dynamic binary retranslation? > BTW, I even forgot one classification: > * TLB vs. TransMap... Not sure of this one, though... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 08:39:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA14877 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:39:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:40:39 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Good, then I don't have to work anymore... >Ooh, I don't know about that... ;) Oh shit! And this man wants to rule the world... >> Hehe, I think you're already influenced by German grammar ;-) >I'm getting worried! We will assimilate you ;-) >You're one sick person, you know? ;) Hey, you brought up the revolution topic! Well, I guess we both are sick then... >Static: performed before emulation >Dynamic: performed during emulation >Not difficult. :) As I said: when the dynarec happens to translate the whole program prior to runtime you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from a static one! BTW, what is the difference between AI and a defunct computer? There is none! In both cases you get results you wouldn't expect. ;-) >Of course. This can be seen in other emus - like the old Corn thing. Yeah, that's why made a split between the two features static and file generation, which were one feature in my original theory. >> * The last point is NG distiction between compilation and >> recompilation, which mainly means that either self-modifying code is >> being detected or the compiler doesn care. >Which is the only way to make sense of it all, IMO. Since most say "dynarec" even if it doesn't care about self-modifying code I think this is one thing we really need to discuss about. Before you mentioned dynamic compilation on the list this would have been something different for me: a compiler that generates code for dynamic code generation during runtime. >Dynamic binary retranslation? I think it's bad to give the small prefix too much meaning. You've even used it wrong because NB's dynarec isn't a retranslator yet. OK, let's do some language history: In Middle High German there was a prefix to negate the verb ("en" or "ne"), but it could also be used as a postfix on the word preceding the verb. It seems that more and more people misunderstood sentences because later multiple negation was used. In many cases the combination "ne wiht" was used, which means "not a small thing". Later it was shortened to "nicht" and the negation prefix was totally dropped. IMO it's not good to pack the information if a translator checks for self-modifying code or not in just two letters which are so easy to overlook. This will surely lead to even more misunderstandings. >> BTW, I even forgot one classification: >> * TLB vs. TransMap... >Not sure of this one, though... It might be that you missed the discussion between Neil, Victor, and me. You know that translated blocks are stored in allocated parts of the memory which are often called the "translation cache". But you still need a method to find out if a block is already translated and if so where the generated code lies. Most implementations I know use a hash table which is often referred to as "translation lookaside buffer" (TLB) because it does a similar address translation as performed in a MMU. NB uses a different approach. He has a large array where he stores the relating target code address for each address in the source memory. Victor invented the term TransMap for this structure ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 09:51:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15243 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D907A0.EF761393@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:49:20 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Some, yes. English makes heavy use of Latin. :) > > I know. It just happens that I may use a lot of Latin - and not know it. :) > >AFAIK it wasn't. I think you meant "Tia culpa!" because I know that > phrase. > > Don't ask me. The last time I translated Latin (Carmina Burana) I used > a Latin dictionary very heavily! I don't blame you! > >I was going to call it flish... ;) > > Sounds a bit like fish... Exactly. Sounds a bit fishy to me. :) > >I'll just ask him. "Are you dead?" "Mmmm! Mmm mmm MMMMMM!" > >I'm taking that as a no. ;) > > How can you tell? It might have been his death screams ;-) He's still ali... no, sorry. He's dead now. ;) neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 09:51:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15251 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:51:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D90768.5AD4B221@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:48:24 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Yeah, what I love most is to figure out how an operating system works > that I never used before ;-) Or, in my particular case, an entire machine! :) > Hehe. Then it surely wasn't Steve Furber! The ARM was mainly developed > by two people: Steve Furber (implementation), who is now a professor at > Manchester university, and Sophie Wilson (architecture). And the ARM > was really the first commercial RISC processor in the world! Well, unless Sophie is now on hormone treatments, it wasn't her. Definitely a guy. But the guy didn't know the machine too well, he was definitely a PR guy. > >I think I've still got one of those Acorn RiscPC drinks mats somewhere > at > >home. Or I could have thrown it away. :) > > I still have my Clan Acorn member card... nostalgia! Heh. :) > >I remember being very impressed with the whole thing, but then I was > young > >and impressionable. ;) > > The RPC is still impressing. Sometimes it's great to see how fast > software can be on such outdated technology. You have to see the Iron > Dignity demo to believe what's all possible without 3D hardware! > The joke is that some guys now even use TechWriter to open Word > documents which cannot be opened by Word anymore and when you save > these in Word format from TechWriter they work again. Not to mention > that TechWriter is much more stable than Word and fits onto a single > floppy disk if you don't include the dictionary! The techniques used are impressive, but the hardware is not so much - these days. I guess it was for those days. Heh, they had a 486 DX2/66 PC card - I remember being impressed by that because that was top of the range at the time... I know what's possible without 3D hardware - did you ever see demos on the 8-bits or 16-bits? All that's better now is the resolution (graphics and sound)... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 09:53:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15266 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:53:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D907FA.1F1612CF@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:50:50 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Yes, that's probably a better word for it. > > Hey, and I even didn't have to look it up in the dictionary! Well done! ;p > >Yes, I'd suggest not doing it on mul8. At least here we *pretend* to > >know what we're talking about. > > Only speak for yourself ;-) ;p > >Over there they don't pretend - they really don't. ;) > > Or they pretend not to know ;-) Another possibility. But when you get people asking "Where can I get a C compiler, I have Visual C++" then you do have to wonder. Yes, everybody starts somewhere, but I don't believe that you should even *consider* writing an emulator if you don't know that... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 09:55:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15287 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:55:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D90865.14755DDB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:52:37 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I really must learn to go to bed BEFORE 3am when I have to be up at 7. > I've > >noticed that when I start programming, I lose track of time. And - > >eventually - sleep. And when you work 10 hour days, that's a bad > thing! > > Maybe you just need an alarm clock ;-) Two. If I change the one I've got, chances are that I'll forget to put it back to 7am and I'll oversleep. :)) > >If it has been done, it hasn't been documented. At least, not that > >I've read... > > That's the problem with dynarecs. Either you notice how bad they are in > the open sources or they don't even tell you what tricks they've used - > maybe to spare us a good laugh because they've done it bad as well... Maybe so. Hmm. Never really looked. I'd rather do it myself from scratch rather than try and understand someone elses code... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 09:57:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15313 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D9092B.917DA598@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:55:55 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Ooh, I don't know about that... ;) > > Oh shit! And this man wants to rule the world... No, I don't want to. I just said that I would... ;) > >> Hehe, I think you're already influenced by German grammar ;-) > >I'm getting worried! > > We will assimilate you ;-) It... appear so, yes. :o > >You're one sick person, you know? ;) > > Hey, you brought up the revolution topic! > Well, I guess we both are sick then... But I was talking about emulation! Trust you to bring up menstruation... ;) > >Static: performed before emulation > >Dynamic: performed during emulation > >Not difficult. :) > > As I said: when the dynarec happens to translate the whole program > prior to runtime you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from a static > one! But it isn't dynamic then. Dynamic needs to be able to adapt - that's the whole point of the word "Dynamic"! > BTW, what is the difference between AI and a defunct computer? > There is none! In both cases you get results you wouldn't expect. ;-) I was worried it was going to be another sick joke there... ;) > >Which is the only way to make sense of it all, IMO. > > Since most say "dynarec" even if it doesn't care about self-modifying > code I think this is one thing we really need to discuss about. Before > you mentioned dynamic compilation on the list this would have been > something different for me: a compiler that generates code for dynamic > code generation during runtime. That's true - which shows why the need exists for a definitive statement. > >Dynamic binary retranslation? > > I think it's bad to give the small prefix too much meaning. You've even > used it wrong because NB's dynarec isn't a retranslator yet. His fault, not mine! ;) > >Not sure of this one, though... > > NB uses a different approach. He has a large array where he stores the > relating target code address for each address in the source memory. > Victor invented the term TransMap for this structure ;-) Did see it, but the conversation is all at home... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 10:30:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15476 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:30:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:31:27 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Well, unless Sophie is now on hormone treatments, it wasn't her. Hmm, that person used to be mentioned as Roger Wilson and later as Sophie Wilson, so I think you already mentioned the answer... >Definitely >a guy. But the guy didn't know the machine too well, he was definitely a PR >guy. Yeah, tell me about PR guys! We (or more precise, I had all the work) had to change the version number of one of our programs one day before CeBIT and reinstall it on all presentation computers because those damn PR guys mixed our two programs GEDOK 3.0 and VISIT 4.0 and told the press that GEDOK 4.0 and VISIT 4.0 were to be shown! The best thing is that they didn't even admit they made the error but said that we (the development group) had given them the wrong information! >The techniques used are impressive, but the hardware is not so much - these >days. I guess it was for those days. Heh, they had a 486 DX2/66 PC card - I >remember being impressed by that because that was top of the range at the >time... The first PC card I had was a 486SX-33, but I had it upgraded to an AMD 5x86/160 some time ago. >I know what's possible without 3D hardware - did you ever see demos on the >8-bits or 16-bits? All that's better now is the resolution (graphics and >sound)... Iron Dignity has really cool effects: shading, dynamic shadows, water reflections, lighting, and very cool lense flares. >He's still ali... no, sorry. He's dead now. ;) They killed Kenny! Those ... Wait, who is they??? >Another possibility. But when you get people asking "Where can I get a C >compiler, I have Visual C++" then you do have to wonder. Yes, everybody >starts somewhere, but I don't believe that you should even *consider* >writing an emulator if you don't know that... Yeah, if they cannot program it's bad to start with programming an emulator... >> Maybe you just need an alarm clock ;-) >Two. If I change the one I've got, chances are that I'll forget to put it >back to 7am and I'll oversleep. :)) My problem is that I'm able to switch off that thing while I'm half asleep and it can happen that I just turn round and take another nap. >Maybe so. Hmm. Never really looked. I'd rather do it myself from scratch >rather than try and understand someone elses code... In some cases it's not only the name you share with Neil ;-) >No, I don't want to. I just said that I would... ;) Hey, you're a PocketBG! >> We will assimilate you ;-) >It... appear so, yes. :o I'll tell you a secret: it's all due to the German beer! ;-) >But I was talking about emulation! Trust you to bring up menstruation... ;) Uh, won't say anything without a lawyer! >But it isn't dynamic then. Dynamic needs to be able to adapt - that's the >whole point of the word "Dynamic"! When you have a program that has just one large block then it would be exactly the same effect if you used a dynamic or static translator! >I was worried it was going to be another sick joke there... ;) If you don't like translated German jokes (worked better than I thought) then tell us some British ones! >That's true - which shows why the need exists for a definitive statement. Just what I say all of the time... >> I think it's bad to give the small prefix too much meaning. You've even >> used it wrong because NB's dynarec isn't a retranslator yet. >His fault, not mine! ;) Hey, Neil do you read this? He said it's your fault! >Did see it, but the conversation is all at home... :) Well I hope you now know what I meant... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 10:43:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15541 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Compiler Optimisation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:44:19 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Today Jens Kilian mentioned another GCC option to me which I forgot about because it shows no effect on ARM code. But for x86 the option "-fomit-frame-pointer" (thank God that it's an 'f') works wonders. My 'inc' function is reduced to: inc: movl 4(%esp),%eax incl %eax ret Still not as good as Watcom, but much better than without the option: inc: pushl %ebp movl %esp,%ebp movl 8(%ebp),%eax incl %eax movl %ebp,%esp popl %ebp ret Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 22 23:28:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA18878 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:28:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-Id: <200003230728.IAA21544@wsasd315.asml.nl> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:28:21 +0100 (MET) From: Paul Franke Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation To: dynarec@synthcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: P3DOw+KvB2cZwVZdiPe+Dg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.1 CDE Version 1.2.1 SunOS 5.6 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f > To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation > Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:38:35 CET > From: "Michael Koenig" > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > >> Five consonants in a > >> row is impossible even in German. > >No, surely not! ;)) > > Example? > > >Yes, that's true. Okay. Maybe it's Dutch or something... :) In Dutch there is the "famous" two syllable word "angstschreeuw", which means a cry of fear. The syllable boundary is between angst-schreeuw. > > What about Finnish? ;-) > > Bye, > M.I.K.e > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. _____________________________________________________________________ Paul Franke ASML BV phone: (+31) (0)40-2305074 / 0623379159 De Run 6665 email work: paul.franke@asml.nl 5504 DT Veldhoven, paul.franke@nl.origin-it.com The Netherlands email home: pfranke@wxs.nl --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 00:10:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA18994 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:10:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:53:12 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> >Yes, that's true. Okay. Maybe it's Dutch or something... :) >In Dutch there is the "famous" two syllable word "angstschreeuw", >which means a cry of fear. The German equivalent would be "Angstschrei", but these are still only 4 consonats in a row: "ng" is one, "st" are two, and "sch" is one. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 01:14:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA19199 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:14:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D9E00C.5D52A7E@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:12:44 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <000501bf9381$7d543c80$0a909090@okay> <38D8781C.A49653F4@est.fib.upc.es> <38D879F4.424FE0AD@eurocopter.de> <38D87C8E.C50824EF@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Ok, it's time I make some definitions too :) But I think there is nothing new to be saied :( In my thoughts these are the main techniques for emulation: 1. Static translation 2. Dinamic translation 3. Interpreting 4. Decode caching/threaded interpreter (Note: about this I'm not really sure) 5. Hardware emulation Static Translation (statrans) =================== Builds a translation of the emulated ROM/program at startup then the translation is executed. It is slow on startup and very fast while executing. But it's difficult to implement. Main problems would be unresolved jump addresses (indirect jumps) and self-modyfing code. Other problems are that it isn't a very flexible technique, perhaps would work for a ROM or a few ROMs but difficult to work for all ROMs. Also you have to build a translation (and this needs a lot of time) each time you want to play/use the ROM Decode and translation is made before execution. All kinds of optimizations can be made. It works as an assembler/compiler that gets a bit/opcode stream as input. It uses all the same techniques from compiler theory. Extensions: a) something MIKE calls dynamic code generation. Build code that dynamically detects the non-translated addresses and builds a translation. Really difficult to implement. b) a mixed interpreter that begins to work when this new addresses are found or to handle self modyfing code. This perhaps would be a good solution, but then in fact what you are running most of the time is the interpreter, so you lost the speed you want when using this technic. c) store the translation in a file or perhaps do a translator that generates automatically executable files. Difficult, the executable would be bigger than original ROM or would also need the ROM. Dinamic Translation (dinatrans or dintrans) ============================= Build the translation at execution time. When you need to execute some new code it's translated. The translated code is stored somewhere and used later when this code is called. It's a only a bit slower than a static translator (if the dinatrans is well implemented). You spend some time while executing in build the translation but usually the translation is only made once and then reused. It's a lot of flexible and admits a lot of extensions. Problems: self-modyfing code. Translation is made in what I call 'translation units', this 'units' can have a lot of sizes: from an alone instruction to a full routine, usually is a something resembling a 'basic block'. Decode and translation are made at execution time but (usually) only once. Only a few optimizations are implemented (usually). The techniques used resemble to compiler techniques but are simpler and bit different. Extensions: a) static startup, a big starting translation could be made before you begin execution. Later you handle the new jump addresses found. More or less work could be made at this startup stage, only some code pre-analysis or a full translation of all reachable code. It's a mixture between an static translator and a dynamic translation. I think could be useful if a lot of code is translated at startup, could speed the beginning of the execution spending some time at load stage. b) an algorithm for handling self-modifyng code. Perhaps not so difficult to implement but if there is a lot of self-modyfing code it would be slow and would be better use an interpreter. The main work would be made the test for modifyied code, the emulator could spend to many time at this. c) a mixed interpreter, this will handle self-modifying code when detected or perhaps will be used for code in RAM. A good solution but you have to implement to cores. d) profiling, perhaps mixed with an interpreter too. It would work as Java Hot Spot, interpreting, get information and translated code used very often. This will help to find what pieces of code would be better to optimize. e) perhaps could be interesting store the translated code in a file too, but this have never been used. Interpreting (interpreter) ================= Well, everybody knows what this is, right? :) Each instruction is decoded and then the proper function is called. It's slower because you have to decode the same instruction each time you execute it. A lot of code for each instruction is repeated each time you execute it. No optimizations can be made. Extensions: I don't know none. Threaded interpreting/Decode caching ========================== Perhaps in this I'm wrong. I think this technic works as an interpreter but the instruction is only decode once. You have a map of memory with a pointer for each instruction to the a function that executes this instruction. It's faster than interpreting. Perhaps some optimizations can me made, as instruction collapsing or flag evaluation supresion. Extensions: None. Perhaps this is an extension from interpreting. Hardware emulation ============== You have some hardware device that help you to emulate a system. Usually is a board with the processor you are emulating and some more chips for help. I don't know much about this. I have heared about 'microcode translation' and chips that translated java bytecode to another processor. But it's hard to implement, hard to find and expensive. But it would be really fast. I think this is all. :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 01:33:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA19239 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:33:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38D9E48F.EA0B1160@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:31:59 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > Let's do it again - my classification: > > * Dynamic vs. static translation, where static means prior to runtime > and dynamic that translation is done on demand. > The differences aren't that big as it seems, because you could do a > translation prior to runtime but don't translate the whole thing. > On the other hand when you decide that you want to translate more than > just one block in dynamic translation (no limit is specified by the > term) you could end up with the whole translation for small examples, > which would then be static recompilation. > I think the distiction isn't really that easy! > It's really difficult to do a complet translation prior to runtime, and I know what I'm saying I'm working with it :) You have to run find a new address not translated and then retranslate again all. And it's very slow. The diference between static and dynamic in fact is how you work: first translate all and then execute or be in a translate-execute loop. And also in my thoughts static means you have a big distinction between translation phase and execution phase, in dinamic there isn't two phases, all time you are translating and executing (ok, until you don't have code to translate). > > * Generation in memory or to file - this might also be called volatile > against non-volatile. > Well, dynarecs normally generate the code in memory but FX!32 stores > transation units in a database. Also static translation normally refers > to a process where a new executable is produced, but in NG's > terminology it can also be directed to memory. > IMHO the generation of a new executable is only useful if you have > clean code with no hardware references apart from the CPU where only > system calls have to mapped. > Store the result in a file is not suited for emulation, you don't want to have files for all ROMs you have ever runned. > > * Dynamic code generation vs. preassembled code templates. > With code templates you can't do optimizations or only a very few optimizations so it isn't, i thought, so fast than dynamic code generation. I think this could be something similar to threaded interpreting but without having to call/jump to a function. > > * The last point is NG distiction between compilation and > recompilation, which mainly means that either self-modifying code is > being detected or the compiler doesn care. > Yes the last problem we ever have :) > > With this classification NB's method could be called: > volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code > detection (yet) > Very complet, pretty large ;) But it's correct, if you want to define something you have to say what it is. If we would have created a small name for this tech, and everybody knows what the name means, we could use this name. > > BTW, I even forgot one classification: > * TLB vs. TransMap... Oh, you forget this also ... Perhaps another would be with profiling or without profiling (gathering information to know where, what and how optimize in translated code). And just another with a mixed interpreter or without an interpreter (for self-modyfing code and others things). Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 03:52:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA19742 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:52:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf944c$e50ca620$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:08:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Well, unless Sophie is now on hormone treatments, it wasn't her. > > Hmm, that person used to be mentioned as Roger Wilson and later as > Sophie Wilson, so I think you already mentioned the answer... Erm... Scary! > Yeah, tell me about PR guys! We (or more precise, I had all the work) > had to change the version number of one of our programs one day before > CeBIT and reinstall it on all presentation computers because those damn > PR guys mixed our two programs GEDOK 3.0 and VISIT 4.0 and told the > press that GEDOK 4.0 and VISIT 4.0 were to be shown! > The best thing is that they didn't even admit they made the error but > said that we (the development group) had given them the wrong > information! Hmm. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hate PR people. If you need to lie to sell a product, you shouldn't sell the product. And a PR guy is never wrong (as you've just mentioned). Hmm... > The first PC card I had was a 486SX-33, but I had it upgraded to an AMD > 5x86/160 some time ago. But you've got a straight PC as well, haven't you? > >I know what's possible without 3D hardware - did you ever see demos on > >the 8-bits or 16-bits? All that's better now is the resolution (graphics > >and sound)... > > Iron Dignity has really cool effects: shading, dynamic shadows, water > reflections, lighting, and very cool lense flares. Impressive. Seen the game "Unreal"? The software renderer in that is also damned impressive. It basically emulates a full 3D-card - and does a pretty good job of it as well... > >He's still ali... no, sorry. He's dead now. ;) > > They killed Kenny! Those ... Wait, who is they??? They... them... You know... them... ;) > >Another possibility. But when you get people asking "Where can I get a > >C compiler, I have Visual C++" then you do have to wonder. Yes, > >everybody starts somewhere, but I don't believe that you should even *consider* > >writing an emulator if you don't know that... > > Yeah, if they cannot program it's bad to start with programming an > emulator... Indeed. And if you can program and still have some sanity left, it's bad to start programming an emulator. Sanity goes out the window: "WHY DOESN'T THIS WORK! WHY?!"... Not that I've been there... :))) > >Two. If I change the one I've got, chances are that I'll forget to put > >it back to 7am and I'll oversleep. :)) > > My problem is that I'm able to switch off that thing while I'm half > asleep and it can happen that I just turn round and take another nap. Same problem. I have a light next to my bed which I turn on before I turn the alarm off. I then find it difficult to go back to sleep... > >Maybe so. Hmm. Never really looked. I'd rather do it myself from > >scratch rather than try and understand someone elses code... > > In some cases it's not only the name you share with Neil ;-) It's in the name, definitely. Who knows, they may do it a better way than myself. But then, I may do it better than them. There's only one way to find out. :) > >No, I don't want to. I just said that I would... ;) > > Hey, you're a PocketBG! Until I find out what a PocketBG is, I deny that. ;) > >> We will assimilate you ;-) > >It... appear so, yes. :o > > I'll tell you a secret: it's all due to the German beer! ;-) Damn, damn, and thrice damn! Damn you for you and your strong beer festival (stark beer at 12 percent proof served in a mass - or 1 litre glass)... > >But it isn't dynamic then. Dynamic needs to be able to adapt - that's > >the whole point of the word "Dynamic"! > > When you have a program that has just one large block then it would be > exactly the same effect if you used a dynamic or static translator! Yes. But then I've never seen a program with one large block that never jumps or has any compares at all... > >I was worried it was going to be another sick joke there... ;) > > If you don't like translated German jokes (worked better than I > thought) then tell us some British ones! I don't mind them. Besides, you'd never get them. Or I'd offend someone. ;) A joke... a joke... Wait, I know one: French people. ;) > >That's true - which shows why the need exists for a definitive > >statement. > > Just what I say all of the time... Good. Then I'll provide everyone with one this weekend. :) > >His fault, not mine! ;) > > Hey, Neil do you read this? He said it's your fault! Yeah! ;) No, you can't call it a retranslator if it doesn't... retranslate. :) > >Did see it, but the conversation is all at home... :) > > Well I hope you now know what I meant... I do now, yes. I'll mention it - just to confuse many more people. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 05:07:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA19944 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:07:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DA15E0.41A3388@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:02:24 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >In Dutch there is the "famous" two syllable word "angstschreeuw", > >which means a cry of fear. > > The German equivalent would be "Angstschrei", but these are still only > 4 consonats in a row: "ng" is one, "st" are two, and "sch" is one. I need to learn more about German. In English, a constonant is any letter which isn't a vowel (i.e. a, e, i, o and u). Why is "ng" only one constonant? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 05:18:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA19964 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:18:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DA1896.4DB43082@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:13:58 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <38D9E48F.EA0B1160@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > It's really difficult to do a complet translation prior to runtime, and I know > what I'm saying I'm working with it :) I agree. There are nearly always going to be things that make it impossible. For instance, say they've implemented a jump table. How do you know where it will jump to (for a bad example)? > Store the result in a file is not suited for emulation, you don't want to have > files for all ROMs you have ever runned. Agreed. > > * Dynamic code generation vs. preassembled code templates. > > With code templates you can't do optimizations or only a very few optimizations > so it isn't, i thought, so fast than dynamic code generation. I think this > could be something similar to threaded interpreting but without having to > call/jump to a function. All you can do is optimise the templates themselves, but that doesn't help out all that much... > > * The last point is NG distiction between compilation and > > recompilation, which mainly means that either self-modifying code is > > being detected or the compiler doesn care. > > Yes the last problem we ever have :) True, but I'm right. ;) The prefix "re" means something is done more than once (or, in a better way, is done again). So, "compilation" and "recompilation". You see? :) > > With this classification NB's method could be called: > > volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code > > detection (yet) > > Very complet, pretty large ;) > But it's correct, if you want to define something you have to say what it is. > If we would have created a small name for this tech, and everybody knows what > the name means, we could use this name. VCE and VCES? VCE: Volatile Code Emitter VCES: Volatile Code Emitter with Self-modifying ability Of course, it also sounds like "faeces", so it's got to be rememberable. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 05:22:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA19976 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:22:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DA19DF.BB8B6219@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:19:27 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > If you don't like translated German jokes (worked better than I > thought) then tell us some British ones! I can just about remember one British joke which shouldn't offend anyone. And if it does... well, nyaah! ;) After God had created Adam and Eve he left them alone. Anyway, eventually they had figured out how to have sex and after they'd finished, Adam went for a walk. God met up with him and asked him how it went. Adam told him it was good and Eve had enjoyed it too. Then God asked Adam where Eve was. Adam told him that she was down in the river washing herself. God moaned to himself "Oh no! Now all the fish will smell like that!" There, classic British (pub) humour. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 10:21:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21006 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:21:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:56:41 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id KAA21003 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Hmm. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hate PR people. If you >need to lie to sell a product, you shouldn't sell the product. And a PR guy >is never wrong (as you've just mentioned). Hmm... Yeah, another topic where we share the same opinion... >But you've got a straight PC as well, haven't you? Yeah, a Deschutes-350 with 256MB RAM. But I worked on the PC card for some time, and even did my whole internet stuff on Win95 although it was pretty slow. >Impressive. Seen the game "Unreal"? Of course! >The software renderer in that is also >damned impressive. It basically emulates a full 3D-card - and does a pretty >good job of it as well... I have a Banshee, so Unreal runs perfectly on my PC, but I saw it once on a crappy ATI card and Unreal's software mode was certainly better than that of Half-Life. >They... them... You know... them... ;) Ah, *them*! Why didn't you say that in the beginning? >Same problem. I have a light next to my bed which I turn on before I turn >the alarm off. I then find it difficult to go back to sleep... I have problems to sleep in the evening but in the morning I'm so tired that I might even sleep under Boing landing lights! >It's in the name, definitely. Who knows, they may do it a better way than >myself. But then, I may do it better than them. There's only one way to find >out. :) Yeah, and remember, there is no try! ;-) >Until I find out what a PocketBG is, I deny that. ;) A "Pocket Bill Gates" - I thought it would be a nice analogy to PocketGB ;-) >Damn, damn, and thrice damn! Damn you for you and your strong beer festival >(stark beer at 12 percent proof served in a mass - or 1 litre glass)... That's strong stuff indeed... >Yes. But then I've never seen a program with one large block that never >jumps or has any compares at all... I didn't say that you have no jumps at all. Even NB only counts unconditional jumps as block terminators, which means that you theoretically could have thousands of conditional branches in the block! >I don't mind them. Besides, you'd never get them. Or I'd offend someone. ;) >A joke... a joke... Wait, I know one: French people. ;) Aw, that's a bad one... How about: What do a mobile and a suppository share? Both are for arseholes! ;-) >> >That's true - which shows why the need exists for a definitive >> >statement. >Good. Then I'll provide everyone with one this weekend. :) Great! >No, you can't call it a retranslator if it doesn't... retranslate. :) Indeed, so it was your fault ;-) >I do now, yes. I'll mention it - just to confuse many more people. :) Yeah, do that. >> The German equivalent would be "Angstschrei", but these are still only >> 4 consonants in a row: "ng" is one, "st" are two, and "sch" is one. >I need to learn more about German. I bet so! >In English, a constonant is any letter which isn't a vowel (i.e. a, e, i, o and u). You forgot about the semi-vowels "w" and "y". And in German we have the mutants (Umlaute) ä, ö, ü. >Why is "ng" only one consonant? Maybe I should note that I'm talking about phonemes (sounds) and not letters, since the classification of vowels and consonants only belongs to sounds. You also have that "ng" sound English, since the IPA sign (looks a bit like a combination of "n" and the lower part of "g") isn't part of the ASCII set I'll use "N" for that sound. Another sign I'll need is that for "sh" (German "sch"), where the official sign looks like an integral sign, so I'll use "S" for that one. One example where you have the letters "n+g" but only one sound is "king", pronounced [kiN]. Another example where "n+g" are two consonants is "English", pronounced [iNgliS]. The German word "Angstschrei" is pronounced [aNstSrai]. Oops, seems I counted wrong and the word really contains 5 consonats in a row, shame on me! I hope you enjoyed the phonetics excourse ;-) >After God had created Adam and Eve he left them alone. Anyway, eventually >they had figured out how to have sex and after they'd finished, Adam went >for a walk. God met up with him and asked him how it went. Adam told him it >was good and Eve had enjoyed it too. Then God asked Adam where Eve was. >Adam told him that she was down in the river washing herself. God moaned to >himself "Oh no! Now all the fish will smell like that!" Not bad ;-) But it's also as sick as mine ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 10:21:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21014 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:15:18 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It's really difficult to do a complet translation prior to runtime, and I know >what I'm saying I'm working with it :) BTW, I stumbled across an IBM project called DAISY while searching for "dynamic compilation". Is this the same tool you work with? >Store the result in a file is not suited for emulation, you don't want to have >files for all ROMs you have ever runned. Well, FX!32 does that for every Intel binary excuted on an Alpha-NT system! But I agree with you that it's not the approach we should take. Nevertheless we have to mention it if only for completeness. >With code templates you can't do optimizations or only a very few optimizations >so it isn't, i thought, so fast than dynamic code generation. Indeed. And it's so ridgid that you run into problems when you want to change or optimise the code. >I think this >could be something similar to threaded interpreting but without having to >call/jump to a function. I haven't thought of that one yet, but basically you are right. >> With this classification NB's method could be called: >> volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code >> detection (yet) >Very complet, pretty large ;) >But it's correct, if you want to define something you have to say what it is. It's certainly not a term to use when you ask someone, "Hey, do you already know Neil's great ENTER TERM HERE?" But if you want to make clear how it works without leaving out important parts or having to tell the whole story this is the only way to go. >If we would have created a small name for this tech, and everybody knows what >the name means, we could use this name. Maybe you can come up with a nifty term? >> BTW, I even forgot one classification: >> * TLB vs. TransMap... >Oh, you forget this also ... Hehe, you invented the term and forgot about it ;-) >Perhaps another would be with profiling or without profiling (gathering >information to know where, what and how optimize in translated code). >And just another with a mixed interpreter or without an interpreter (for >self-modyfing code and others things). The second one is a prerequisite for the first one. HotSpot and FX!32 perform profiling, but both do it during the interpretation phase. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 10:33:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21086 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:33:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:37:34 -0500 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:56:41 CET, "Michael Koenig" wrote: >on a crappy ATI card Hey now! I take exception to that. :) ATI makes some pretty good hardware. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Jack Follansbee | Disclaimer: Unless otherwise explicitly stated, | |Senior Software Engineer | these opinions are mine alone and do not | |ATI Research Inc. | represent the opinions of ATI, it's stockholders | |http://www.atitech.ca | or management, blah, blah, blah. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 11:44:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA21346 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:45:36 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >>on a crappy ATI card >Hey now! I take exception to that. :) It seems that it just needs flames to get the lurkers out of the shadows ;-) >ATI makes some pretty good hardware. Well, I got the picture that all "complete PCs" have a ATI card because they are so cheap. I don't know about the newer 32MB Xpert cards, but the old RagePros seemed like crap to me, at least for 3D performance. They seem to be pretty good for 2D stuff, but then they shouldn't call them 3D cards... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 12:29:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21531 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:29:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000101bf9505$7f8bb2a0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:09:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, >>Hmm. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hate PR people. If >>you >>need to lie to sell a product, you shouldn't sell the product. And a >>PR guy >>is never wrong (as you've just mentioned). Hmm... > >Yeah, another topic where we share the same opinion... Good. Because I'd blast you to pieces if you disagreed with me on this one - too many bad experiences with PR people. :) >>But you've got a straight PC as well, haven't you? > >Yeah, a Deschutes-350 with 256MB RAM. But I worked on the PC card for >some time, and even did my whole internet stuff on Win95 although it >was pretty slow. Not bad, not bad. >>Impressive. Seen the game "Unreal"? > >Of course! Good. Nice graphics, poor game. :) >>The software renderer in that is also >>damned impressive. It basically emulates a full 3D-card - and does a >>pretty good job of it as well... > >I have a Banshee, so Unreal runs perfectly on my PC, but I saw it once >on a crappy ATI card and Unreal's software mode was certainly better >than that of Half-Life. 3Dfx card. Runs perfectly. Banshee. Hmm. Hmm. ;) No, I just like having unblurred graphics, nice dithering (if I even use 16-bit!) and not having a card for which owners are now thought to be dumb (from all the "my card is better than yours" times). >>They... them... You know... them... ;) > >Ah, *them*! Why didn't you say that in the beginning? B...b...but I did! ;) >>Same problem. I have a light next to my bed which I turn on before I >>turn the alarm off. I then find it difficult to go back to sleep... > >I have problems to sleep in the evening but in the morning I'm so tired >that I might even sleep under Boing landing lights! Same here, but I find money is a good incentive to get out of bed. But emulation is a good incentive not to GO to bed, so I tend to burn the candle at both ends and hope the wax doesn't drip on me... >>Until I find out what a PocketBG is, I deny that. ;) > >A "Pocket Bill Gates" - I thought it would be a nice analogy to >PocketGB ;-) Bill Gates in your pocket? That's got to be a nightmare. I mean... imagine trying to walk! ;)) >>Damn, damn, and thrice damn! Damn you for you and your strong beer >>festival (stark beer at 12 percent proof served in a mass - or 1 litre >>glass)... > >That's strong stuff indeed... Yes indeed. And it appears that I can easily outdrink everyone here (all the other praktikants)- which is a bad thing because now they'll all try to outdrink me. Damn! >>Yes. But then I've never seen a program with one large block that >>never jumps or has any compares at all... > >I didn't say that you have no jumps at all. Even NB only counts >unconditional jumps as block terminators, which means that you >theoretically could have thousands of conditional branches in the >block! No, AFAIK, NB looks for any conditional or unconditional jump as a block terminator. Only one guy can verify this, though. Neil, Neil, wherefore art though, Neil? Deny thy father and refuse thy nam... anyway. :) >Aw, that's a bad one... >How about: What do a mobile and a suppository share? >Both are for arseholes! ;-) And you call MY joke bad! ;) >>No, you can't call it a retranslator if it doesn't... retranslate. :) > >Indeed, so it was your fault ;-) No, I was the one who said it isn't a retranslator. Stop trying to confuse me! ;) >>In English, a constonant is any letter which isn't a vowel (i.e. a, e, >>i, o and u). > >You forgot about the semi-vowels "w" and "y". And in German we have the >mutants (Umlaute) ä, ö, ü. In English or in German? German I hope or else I'm lacking something. Something which is rather scary about English and that many people don't actually know is that the letter "h" is a semi-vowel. So, gramatically, it is wrong to say something like "a horse" - you should say "an horse". Really, I'm not joking! However, this doesn't get taught to us, only if you take a specialised degree in English. I think it sounds better if we forget about it being a semi-vowel, to be honest... >Maybe I should note that I'm talking about phonemes (sounds) and not >letters, since the classification of vowels and consonants only belongs >to sounds. Hmm. The classification of vowels and constonants belong to the alphabet and not sounds. Phonems belong to phonetics - the science of sound. >The German word "Angstschrei" is pronounced [aNstSrai]. Oops, seems I >counted wrong and the word really contains 5 consonats in a row, shame >on me! Tut! Don't they teach you how to count in Germany? ;) They taught it wrong anyway. You shouldn't say "5 and 50", you should say "55"! ;) >Not bad ;-) Thanks. It's trying to remember them that's difficult. ;) >But it's also as sick as mine ;-) Yes, I know. But it's trying to find a joke that won't offend. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 12:35:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21564 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:35:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001001bf9506$612dd800$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:28:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >>on a crappy ATI card > >Hey now! I take exception to that. :) > > It seems that it just needs flames to get the lurkers out of the > shadows ;-) It seems to be true. Let's test this theory: Your country sucks! If you agree or disagree, let us know. ;) > >ATI makes some pretty good hardware. > > Well, I got the picture that all "complete PCs" have a ATI card because > they are so cheap. Yes. It's either ATi, S3 or SiS. And I've just GOT to create a joke support page for the SiS cards. Great cards in terms of features - they're just slower than an ATi Rage II. And that says something. :)) > I don't know about the newer 32MB Xpert cards, but the old RagePros > seemed like crap to me, at least for 3D performance. They seem to be > pretty good for 2D stuff, but then they shouldn't call them 3D cards... If they can do 3D then can call them that. But if it doesn't work too well, then... :-/ I mean, look at the S3 ViRGE series of cards. Great 2D and they had 3D. The 3D just sucked some serious ass. Then ATi released the RageIIs. They also sucked ass. It was fun for a while. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 12:38:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21576 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:38:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:38:33 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <000101bf9505$7f8bb2a0$0a909090@okay> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >>need to lie to sell a product, you shouldn't sell the product. And a > >>is never wrong (as you've just mentioned). Hmm... > >Yeah, another topic where we share the same opinion... > Good. Because I'd blast you to pieces if you disagreed with me on this one - > too many bad experiences with PR people. :) I think what you mean is a PR spin doctor rather than a public relations person in general. I've seen the other side of it - where engineers who should not be dealing with people wind up queering a deal. PR People do serve a purpose. PR Spin doctors are an entirely different matter. > 3Dfx card. Runs perfectly. Banshee. Hmm. Hmm. ;) Bleugh. TNT2 way better. ;-) > No, I just like having unblurred graphics, nice dithering (if I even use > 16-bit!) and not having a card for which owners are now thought to be dumb > (from all the "my card is better than yours" times). Hehehehe. Oh yeah! > >I have problems to sleep in the evening but in the morning I'm so tired > >that I might even sleep under Boing landing lights! > Same here, but I find money is a good incentive to get out of bed. But > emulation is a good incentive not to GO to bed, so I tend to burn the candle > at both ends and hope the wax doesn't drip on me... Money doesn't motivate me anymore because I have enough of it that I can be an ass. ;-) Turns out it works well for me, so I don't complain too much. > Bill Gates in your pocket? That's got to be a nightmare. I mean... imagine > trying to walk! ;)) Or what he'd do to your schlong. You'd have a Windows icon when you were flaccid, and a full blown startup screen when you were erect! ;-) > >I didn't say that you have no jumps at all. Even NB only counts > >unconditional jumps as block terminators, which means that you > >theoretically could have thousands of conditional branches in the > >block! > No, AFAIK, NB looks for any conditional or unconditional jump as a block > terminator. Only one guy can verify this, though. Neil, Neil, wherefore art > though, Neil? Deny thy father and refuse thy nam... anyway. :) Only look for unconditional jump as a block terminator. Keeps the code from being too fragmented. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 12:48:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21638 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:48:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:52:00 -0500 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <001001bf9506$612dd800$0a909090@okay> In-Reply-To: <001001bf9506$612dd800$0a909090@okay> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:28:30 +0100, "Neil Griffiths" wrote: >Hi, > > >> >>on a crappy ATI card >> >Hey now! I take exception to that. :) >> >> It seems that it just needs flames to get the lurkers out of the >> shadows ;-) > >It seems to be true. Let's test this theory: > >Your country sucks! I don't own a country, so it can't suck. ;-) >If you agree or disagree, let us know. ;) > >> >ATI makes some pretty good hardware. >> >> Well, I got the picture that all "complete PCs" have a ATI card because >> they are so cheap. For the longest time this has typically been a Rage II. Very few integrated systems used a Pro. Still. It's been three years since the Pro came out and we still ship beaucoup Rage IIs. Go figure. >Yes. It's either ATi, S3 or SiS. And I've just GOT to create a joke support >page for the SiS cards. Great cards in terms of features - they're just >slower than an ATi Rage II. And that says something. :)) > >> I don't know about the newer 32MB Xpert cards, but the old RagePros >> seemed like crap to me, at least for 3D performance. They seem to be >> pretty good for 2D stuff, but then they shouldn't call them 3D cards... > >If they can do 3D then can call them that. But if it doesn't work too well, >then... :-/ > >I mean, look at the S3 ViRGE series of cards. Great 2D and they had 3D. The >3D just sucked some serious ass. Then ATi released the RageIIs. They also >sucked ass. It was fun for a while. :) I'll give you that - the Rage II sucked. The Pro, despite accusations to the contrary, doesn't really suck, it's just not *quite* powerful enough to pull off OGL without a hitch. D3D is pretty good on the Pro. And the 128 does kick some major bootay. You'll definitely want to CYA when the new chip ships. More than that I cannot say. :) -- Jack ---- The road to truth and enlightenment is long... be sure to bring a snack and something to drink - Seen on a bumper sticker --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 13:24:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21815 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:24:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01bf9506$605b45c0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:25:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >on a crappy ATI card > > Hey now! I take exception to that. :) > ATI makes some pretty good hardware. I agree. It's just that they release it several months too late... :-/ For instance, ATi were the only people with motion compensation in their cards for years. But they were always behind when 3D came along... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 13:42:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21929 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:42:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:35:15 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >>Yeah, a Deschutes-350 with 256MB RAM. >Not bad, not bad. The RAM is absolutely enough, but the CPU is beginning to be slow... >>>Impressive. Seen the game "Unreal"? >Good. Nice graphics, poor game. :) Yeah, I never finished it. Jedi Knight is the other way round, the graphics aren't that good but the gameplay is cool. >3Dfx card. Runs perfectly. Banshee. Hmm. Hmm. ;) Didn't you get enough sleep again? Or have you turned into a parrot? ;- ) >No, I just like having unblurred graphics, nice dithering (if I even use >16-bit!) and not having a card for which owners are now thought to be dumb >(from all the "my card is better than yours" times). Well, it was the best card when I bought it and I had no need for a better one yet. >B...b...but I did! ;) You really seem to have a language problem. >Same here, but I find money is a good incentive to get out of bed. Not for me... Money isn't everything! But without money anything is nothing... >But emulation is a good incentive not to GO to bed, Too true... >so I tend to burn the candle >at both ends and hope the wax doesn't drip on me... Now you've lost me... >Bill Gates in your pocket? That's got to be a nightmare. I mean... imagine >trying to walk! ;)) Erm, I meant that you would be a small Bill Gates (a PocketBG) when you want to rule the world. But I don't even want to imagine it have Bill Gates in my pocket - maybe under my shoes, but not in my pocket! >Yes indeed. And it appears that I can easily outdrink everyone here (all the >other praktikants)- which is a bad thing because now they'll all try to >outdrink me. Damn! Hehe, poor Neil ;-) >No, AFAIK, NB looks for any conditional or unconditional jump as a block >terminator. Only one guy can verify this, though. Neil, Neil, wherefore art >though, Neil? Deny thy father and refuse thy nam... anyway. :) Take a look at the code and you'll know I'm right. >And you call MY joke bad! ;) Hehe. Didn't you like that one? >No, I was the one who said it isn't a retranslator. Stop trying to confuse >me! ;) Shall I remind you that you are the one who confuses all the others? Maybe you confused yourself this time? ;-) >In English or in German? German I hope or else I'm lacking something. German has mutants, and English has the semi-vowels [w] and [j]. >Something which is rather scary about English and that many people don't >actually know is that the letter "h" is a semi-vowel. So, gramatically, it >is wrong to say something like "a horse" - you should say "an horse". >Really, I'm not joking! However, this doesn't get taught to us, only if you >take a specialised degree in English. I think it sounds better if we forget >about it being a semi-vowel, to be honest... I didn't hear that before, but it sounds quite right with that example, "an horse" is much more fluently than "a horse". >Hmm. The classification of vowels and constonants belong to the alphabet and >not sounds. Phonems belong to phonetics - the science of sound. Wrong, our alphabet is totally arbitrary, but the Sanscrit 'alphabet' is ordered by vowels and consonants. The difference between vowels and consonants is articulatory and acoustic, which is why these two terms belong to phonetics: * vowel - no interference with the air flow - no acoustic noise, harmonic waves * semi-vowel - no interference with air flow - cannot be the core of a syllable * consonant - air flow is hindered - acoustic noise >Tut! Don't they teach you how to count in Germany? ;) Count? What's that? Can I eat that? >They taught it wrong anyway. You shouldn't say "5 and 50", you should say >"55"! ;) I agree with you on that one! >Yes, I know. But it's trying to find a joke that won't offend. :)) Well, we have no girls on the list... Hopefully no female lurkers... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 13:42:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21936 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:42:15 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I think what you mean is a PR spin doctor rather than a public relations >person in general. Well, I the case where I had to change the version number of a program just one day before the CeBIT was an error by our PR guys! >I've seen the other side of it - where engineers who >should not be dealing with people wind up queering a deal. PR People do >serve a purpose. PR Spin doctors are an entirely different matter. BTW, what do you mean by PR spin doctor? >Bleugh. TNT2 way better. ;-) But wasn't available at that time I bought my PC. >Or what he'd do to your schlong. Although I didn't hear the word before I know what it means... BTW, is it a Jiddish word? Sounds like it. >You'd have a Windows icon when you were >flaccid, and a full blown startup screen when you were erect! ;-) Hehe. And you'd have to push the Start button to pee ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 13:55:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22027 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:55:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf9511$a48622a0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <001001bf9506$612dd800$0a909090@okay> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:13:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Your country sucks! > > I don't own a country, so it can't suck. ;-) Damn! My plan failed... ;) > >> Well, I got the picture that all "complete PCs" have a ATI card because > >> they are so cheap. > > For the longest time this has typically been a Rage II. Very few > integrated systems used a Pro. Still. It's been three years since the > Pro came out and we still ship beaucoup Rage IIs. Go figure. ATi is a company that likes money. I think I've found your explanation. ;) > >I mean, look at the S3 ViRGE series of cards. Great 2D and they had 3D. The > >3D just sucked some serious ass. Then ATi released the RageIIs. They also > >sucked ass. It was fun for a while. :) > > I'll give you that - the Rage II sucked. The Pro, despite accusations > to the contrary, doesn't really suck, it's just not *quite* powerful > enough to pull off OGL without a hitch. D3D is pretty good on the Pro. > And the 128 does kick some major bootay. You'll definitely want to CYA > when the new chip ships. More than that I cannot say. :) The 128 MAXX should certainly kick arse. I don't know, not seen it, but it should certainly have some fillrate there. Not sure what you mean by CYA yet. But maybe you can tell me? :) The ATi Pro wasn't so bad - I just found HL unplayable in it. I remember putting my old ViRGE /DX next to an ATi RageIIc and testing. The ViRGE /DX won, that's how bad it was! The Pro was better, but at that time I had a Savage3D and I wouldn't go backwards in performance... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 13:55:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22034 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:55:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000201bf9511$a3612aa0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:08:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I think what you mean is a PR spin doctor rather than a public relations > person in general. I've seen the other side of it - where engineers who > should not be dealing with people wind up queering a deal. PR People do > serve a purpose. PR Spin doctors are an entirely different matter. PR people do serve a purpose. To lie about products in order to sell it. I've never once see a PR company tell the truth. Never. > > 3Dfx card. Runs perfectly. Banshee. Hmm. Hmm. ;) > > Bleugh. TNT2 way better. ;-) Let's be fair. Most things are. ;) The one thing that the V2 had going for it was its twin TMU engines. So what do 3Dfx do? Remove one. Oh dear... Okay, they added 2D - but they made the 3D crap! > > No, I just like having unblurred graphics, nice dithering (if I even use > > 16-bit!) and not having a card for which owners are now thought to be dumb > > (from all the "my card is better than yours" times). > > Hehehehe. Oh yeah! I like playing my games at full speed with all options on. I've only recently got that, mind. Still, I beat your Q3 and UT performance. ;p But then... you get better support than I do from S3. :-/ > > Same here, but I find money is a good incentive to get out of bed. But > > emulation is a good incentive not to GO to bed, so I tend to burn the candle > > at both ends and hope the wax doesn't drip on me... > > Money doesn't motivate me anymore because I have enough of it that I can > be an ass. ;-) Turns out it works well for me, so I don't complain too > much. Well, I'm a poor student who's just starting on the old money making. I need all the motivation I can get. :) > > Bill Gates in your pocket? That's got to be a nightmare. I mean... imagine > > trying to walk! ;)) > > Or what he'd do to your schlong. You'd have a Windows icon when you were > flaccid, and a full blown startup screen when you were erect! ;-) It'd certainly bring new meaning to "Blue Screen Of Death", that's for sure! ;)) > > No, AFAIK, NB looks for any conditional or unconditional jump as a block > > terminator. Only one guy can verify this, though. Neil, Neil, wherefore art > > though, Neil? Deny thy father and refuse thy nam... anyway. :) > > Only look for unconditional jump as a block terminator. Keeps the code > from being too fragmented. Okay, I'm wrong. What happens if you reach a "jz a" instruction? Even though that's not possible... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 14:00:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22083 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:00:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:04:05 -0500 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <001001bf9506$612dd800$0a909090@okay> <000301bf9511$a48622a0$0a909090@okay> In-Reply-To: <000301bf9511$a48622a0$0a909090@okay> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:13:20 +0100, "Neil Griffiths" wrote: >> And the 128 does kick some major bootay. You'll definitely want to CYA >> when the new chip ships. More than that I cannot say. :) > >The 128 MAXX should certainly kick arse. I don't know, not seen it, but it >should certainly have some fillrate there. Not sure what you mean by CYA >yet. But maybe you can tell me? :) Cover yer ass (arse?) - so it doesn't get kicked. :) -- Jack ---- The road to truth and enlightenment is long... be sure to bring a snack and something to drink - Seen on a bumper sticker --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 14:10:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22149 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:10:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001501bf9513$b628aee0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <001001bf9506$612dd800$0a909090@okay> <000301bf9511$a48622a0$0a909090@okay> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:03:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >The 128 MAXX should certainly kick arse. I don't know, not seen it, but it > >should certainly have some fillrate there. Not sure what you mean by CYA > >yet. But maybe you can tell me? :) > > Cover yer ass (arse?) - so it doesn't get kicked. :) Oh. :) And yes, ass=arse. But arse is British. Ass means donkey to us. But hey, you think that "fanny" means "butt". Not to us. If you went up to a girl and said that she had a nice fanny, she would kill you. Opposite side of the body, you see... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 14:21:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22200 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:21:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:25:26 -0500 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: <8d6ldssgaeu0i7ohmf2gate5edvt2qrv3k@4ax.com> References: <001001bf9506$612dd800$0a909090@okay> <000301bf9511$a48622a0$0a909090@okay> <001501bf9513$b628aee0$0a909090@okay> In-Reply-To: <001501bf9513$b628aee0$0a909090@okay> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:03:21 +0100, "Neil Griffiths" wrote: >But hey, you >think that "fanny" means "butt". Not to us. If you went up to a girl and >said that she had a nice fanny, she would kill you. Opposite side of the >body, you see... :)) So I take it there aren't too many chicks named Fanny over there? -- Jack ---- The road to truth and enlightenment is long... be sure to bring a snack and something to drink - Seen on a bumper sticker --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 14:24:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22236 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:24:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:25:03 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> >The 128 MAXX should certainly kick arse. I don't know, not seen it, but >it >> >should certainly have some fillrate there. Not sure what you mean by CYA >> >yet. But maybe you can tell me? :) >> Cover yer ass (arse?) - so it doesn't get kicked. :) >Oh. :) >And yes, ass=arse. But arse is British. Ass means donkey to us. But hey, you >think that "fanny" means "butt". Not to us. If you went up to a girl and >said that she had a nice fanny, she would kill you. Opposite side of the >body, you see... :)) Hmm, this has started as a dynarec list. Then we added music, language and compilers. Now we've reached graphics cards and anatomy... and I still learn new words... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 23:29:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24385 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:29:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003240732.IAA18273@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 23, 2000 07:15:18 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:32:03 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >It's really difficult to do a complet translation prior to runtime, > and I know > >what I'm saying I'm working with it :) > > BTW, I stumbled across an IBM project called DAISY while searching for > "dynamic compilation". Is this the same tool you work with? > No, it's something called Dixie. I think I give you an address with the documentation ... But really doesn't matter, it's as slow as hell. > >Perhaps another would be with profiling or without profiling > (gathering > >information to know where, what and how optimize in translated code). > >And just another with a mixed interpreter or without an interpreter > (for > >self-modyfing code and others things). > > The second one is a prerequisite for the first one. HotSpot and FX!32 > perform profiling, but both do it during the interpretation phase. > Are you sure? Shade perfoms profiling and it don't have an interpreter ;) But perform profiling in translated code would be something more difficult than in an interpreter and then you would have to retranslate. But I think it's possible to do this. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 23:50:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24455 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:50:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB19DA.5C917DEB@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:31:38 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Not bad, not bad. > > The RAM is absolutely enough, but the CPU is beginning to be slow... Oh. Well, I bought a Celeron 300A last year in January. Overclocked it to 450MHz and it still works fine. That was absolutely the best deal I have ever got on a piece of computer hardware! > >>>Impressive. Seen the game "Unreal"? > >Good. Nice graphics, poor game. :) > > Yeah, I never finished it. Jedi Knight is the other way round, the > graphics aren't that good but the gameplay is cool. Yes, I agree. I played Jedi Knight right to the end and then started on MOTS. The new game "Obi-Wan" (or whatever it's called) should hopefully be much cooler with better gameplay and better graphics. We'll see... > >3Dfx card. Runs perfectly. Banshee. Hmm. Hmm. ;) > >No, I just like having unblurred graphics, nice dithering (if I even > >use 16-bit!) and not having a card for which owners are now thought > >to be dumb (from all the "my card is better than yours" times). > > Well, it was the best card when I bought it and I had no need for a > better one yet. It was never the best card - ever - and so long as you're still happy with it, that's good. You obviously don't use it for 3D graphics too heavily because we're talking speeds that are only slightly better than an original Voodoo... > >B...b...but I did! ;) > > You really seem to have a language problem. Yes, my German. ;p > >Same here, but I find money is a good incentive to get out of bed. > > Not for me... > Money isn't everything! True. But it helps. :) > But without money anything is nothing... Don't understand that one, though. :) > >But emulation is a good incentive not to GO to bed, > > Too true... And when you're writing stuff too... > >so I tend to burn the candle > >at both ends and hope the wax doesn't drip on me... > > Now you've lost me... It's a saying. It means that you get up early and stay up late - burning the candle at both ends. > >Bill Gates in your pocket? That's got to be a nightmare. I mean... > imagine > >trying to walk! ;)) > > Erm, I meant that you would be a small Bill Gates (a PocketBG) when you > want to rule the world. But I don't even want to imagine it have Bill > Gates in my pocket - maybe under my shoes, but not in my pocket! I know what you meant, I'm just not going to admit it. Oh, damn, I already did... ;) > >Yes indeed. And it appears that I can easily outdrink everyone here > (all the > >other praktikants)- which is a bad thing because now they'll all try > to > >outdrink me. Damn! > > Hehe, poor Neil ;-) I'll just kill them with Vodka shots or something. :)) And then I can go back to REAL drinks. :) > >No, AFAIK, NB looks for any conditional or unconditional jump as a > block > >terminator. Only one guy can verify this, though. Neil, Neil, > wherefore art > >though, Neil? Deny thy father and refuse thy nam... anyway. :) > > Take a look at the code and you'll know I'm right. I couldn't when I wrote that, I was at work. I think. :) > >And you call MY joke bad! ;) > > Hehe. Didn't you like that one? I think I'd heard it before. > >No, I was the one who said it isn't a retranslator. Stop trying to > confuse > >me! ;) > > Shall I remind you that you are the one who confuses all the others? > Maybe you confused yourself this time? ;-) Hey, it's not my fault that I confuse everyone else! It's not my fault I'm sooooo much more intelligent than you! ;))) Actually, that's so funny it almost hurts. :)) > >In English or in German? German I hope or else I'm lacking something. > > German has mutants, and English has the semi-vowels [w] and [j]. No idea what you mean about the semi-vowels [w] and [j] - I've never heard this... > I didn't hear that before, but it sounds quite right with that example, > "an horse" is much more fluently than "a horse". Not to me, though, but that's probably because I'm not used to it. > >Hmm. The classification of vowels and constonants belong to the > alphabet and > >not sounds. Phonems belong to phonetics - the science of sound. > > Wrong, our alphabet is totally arbitrary, but the Sanscrit 'alphabet' > is ordered by vowels and consonants. > The difference between vowels and consonants is articulatory and > acoustic, which is why these two terms belong to phonetics: > * vowel > - no interference with the air flow > - no acoustic noise, harmonic waves > * semi-vowel > - no interference with air flow > - cannot be the core of a syllable > * consonant > - air flow is hindered > - acoustic noise Okay, but what about [c], [h], [q], [r], [s], [y] ? > >Tut! Don't they teach you how to count in Germany? ;) > > Count? What's that? Can I eat that? Maybe. I've heard that it involves taking a long walk off a short pier (erm... you probably won't know this word... Maybe clifftop as a replacement?). :) > >They taught it wrong anyway. You shouldn't say "5 and 50", you should > >say "55"! ;) > > I agree with you on that one! It's strange. All Germans seem to agree with me on this one. But no-one changes it! > >Yes, I know. But it's trying to find a joke that won't offend. :)) > > Well, we have no girls on the list... > Hopefully no female lurkers... Well, if there are, between us I believe we could have offended them. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 23:51:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24464 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:51:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB1B77.AA68BAD2@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:38:31 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <001001bf9506$612dd800$0a909090@okay> <000301bf9511$a48622a0$0a909090@okay> <001501bf9513$b628aee0$0a909090@okay> <8d6ldssgaeu0i7ohmf2gate5edvt2qrv3k@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >But hey, you > >think that "fanny" means "butt". Not to us. If you went up to a girl and > >said that she had a nice fanny, she would kill you. Opposite side of the > >body, you see... :)) > > So I take it there aren't too many chicks named Fanny over there? You'd be right to think that. 100 years ago, maybe. Now, I don't know of a single girl named "Fanny" - and I think I know the reason for that too. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 23 23:52:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24473 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:52:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB1B35.EF2BFA3@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:37:25 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >And yes, ass=arse. But arse is British. Ass means donkey to us. But > >hey, you think that "fanny" means "butt". Not to us. If you went up to > >a girl and said that she had a nice fanny, she would kill you. Opposite > >side of the body, you see... :)) > > Hmm, this has started as a dynarec list. > Then we added music, language and compilers. > Now we've reached graphics cards and anatomy... and I still learn new > words... Yes, I like this list too. ;) But hey, at least you get to learn all those words that you always wanted to when you learnt a foreign language. I remember when I was learning French how we'd exchange different words (swearing and other stuff) because it was all different. :) So, yes, I can swear in every language I know. :) Well, I don't know who brought up graphics cards (it could well have been me), but it was a bad thing to bring up. I follow the video card market and I have done for years. It's an interest of mine as I like 3D and want to end up in a job working with several 3D engines. As far as anatomy goes, sorry. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:08:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24511 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:08:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003240811.JAA20169@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB19DA.5C917DEB@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 24, 2000 08:31:38 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:11:51 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > >Not bad, not bad. > > > > The RAM is absolutely enough, but the CPU is beginning to be slow... > > Oh. Well, I bought a Celeron 300A last year in January. Overclocked it to > 450MHz and it still works fine. That was absolutely the best deal I have > ever got on a piece of computer hardware! > I have a 333 Mhz Pentium II overclocked to 350 Mhz (I only put bus speed to 100Mhz), 128 MB of RAM and an ugly i740 (i is for Intel) card that works sometimes and sometimes not. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:19:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24538 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB23FB.1E29DE75@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:14:51 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003240811.JAA20169@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Oh. Well, I bought a Celeron 300A last year in January. Overclocked it to > > 450MHz and it still works fine. That was absolutely the best deal I have > > ever got on a piece of computer hardware! > > I have a 333 Mhz Pentium II overclocked to 350 Mhz (I only put bus speed to > 100Mhz), 128 MB of RAM and an ugly i740 (i is for Intel) card that works > sometimes and sometimes not. Now the i740 was a really good card. However, Intel released it a little too late - the i740 was the fastest card around for 2 months and then the Savage4, TNT2 and Voodoo3 (2000/3000/3500) came out. Whatever, it was a new idea (store the framebuffer and everything else in memory and textures in main memory using AGP) which worked really well. Good fillrate and good graphics. Don't know about 2D speed though... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:26:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24553 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:26:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:26:17 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38D9E48F.EA0B1160@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > term) you could end up with the whole translation for small examples, > > which would then be static recompilation. > > I think the distiction isn't really that easy! > It's really difficult to do a complet translation prior to runtime, and I know > what I'm saying I'm working with it :) Not true, actually. If you know ahead of time and can precharge the dynamic recompiler (hehe) with information about all the branches and points of entry, you can recompile the entire thing ahead of time. And that's sorta dynamic/static recompilation. > > With this classification NB's method could be called: > > volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code > > detection (yet) VCEDTWSMCD! ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:27:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24563 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:27:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:27:32 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DA19DF.BB8B6219@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > they had figured out how to have sex and after they'd finished, Adam went > for a walk. God met up with him and asked him how it went. Adam told him it > was good and Eve had enjoyed it too. Then God asked Adam where Eve was. > Adam told him that she was down in the river washing herself. God moaned to > himself "Oh no! Now all the fish will smell like that!" LEave it to the Brits to get the punch line wrong. ;-) It's supposed to go: "Oh no! Now how am I going to get that smell out of the fish?!?!?!" Makes God a bit more manic depressive! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:30:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24583 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:30:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003240833.JAA14207@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB23FB.1E29DE75@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 24, 2000 09:14:51 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:33:20 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > Oh. Well, I bought a Celeron 300A last year in January. Overclocked it to > > > 450MHz and it still works fine. That was absolutely the best deal I have > > > ever got on a piece of computer hardware! > > > > I have a 333 Mhz Pentium II overclocked to 350 Mhz (I only put bus speed to > > 100Mhz), 128 MB of RAM and an ugly i740 (i is for Intel) card that works > > sometimes and sometimes not. > > Now the i740 was a really good card. However, Intel released it a little > too late - the i740 was the fastest card around for 2 months and then the > Savage4, TNT2 and Voodoo3 (2000/3000/3500) came out. > > Whatever, it was a new idea (store the framebuffer and everything else in > memory and textures in main memory using AGP) which worked really well. > Good fillrate and good graphics. Don't know about 2D speed though... Ok, in Direct3D works well, not as fast as a TNT or a Vodoo2 but works, but it had a poor OpenGl support in the first drivers versions and now works but not as well as I would like. For exemple I played Unreal in softmode (impressive softmode !!) because OpenGl version didn't work. Another problem was I had only 64 MB of memory (I bought some more last month) and I had to use 32MB for AGP memory so games usually did memory swapping. But It doesn't matter, it was the best choice (price/quality) when I bought my computer :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:31:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24603 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:31:40 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <001501bf9513$b628aee0$0a909090@okay> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >The 128 MAXX should certainly kick arse. I don't know, not seen it, but > > >should certainly have some fillrate there. Not sure what you mean by CYA > > >yet. But maybe you can tell me? :) > > Cover yer ass (arse?) - so it doesn't get kicked. :) > And yes, ass=arse. But arse is British. Ass means donkey to us. But hey, you > think that "fanny" means "butt". Not to us. If you went up to a girl and > said that she had a nice fanny, she would kill you. Opposite side of the > body, you see... :)) You dumb Brits! ;-) If you already have a name for a donkey, why do you use ass? ;-) Actually, my heritage is British... parents are from Kent... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:35:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24620 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:35:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003240838.JAA30993@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 24, 2000 00:26:17 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:38:00 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > term) you could end up with the whole translation for small examples, > > > which would then be static recompilation. > > > I think the distiction isn't really that easy! > > It's really difficult to do a complet translation prior to runtime, and I know > > what I'm saying I'm working with it :) > > Not true, actually. If you know ahead of time and can precharge the > dynamic recompiler (hehe) with information about all the branches and > points of entry, you can recompile the entire thing ahead of time. And > that's sorta dynamic/static recompilation. > But how do you get this information about all this branches. You have to execute all code or perhaps do a really slow analysis of code and sometimes there are pieces of code hard to reach. > > > With this classification NB's method could be called: > > > volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code > > > detection (yet) > > VCEDTWSMCD! ;-) > Traduccion dinamica con generacion de codigo, volatil y sin deteccion de codigo automodificable (todavia). TDGCVDCA in spanish or TraDiGeCoVoDeCoAu ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:36:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24629 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:36:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:36:33 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I think what you mean is a PR spin doctor rather than a public > >person in general. > Well, I the case where I had to change the version number of a program > just one day before the CeBIT was an error by our PR guys! I mean useless, make everything sound wonderful and lie about everything spin doctors. Ones who will make a house burning down sound like a good thing. > >I've seen the other side of it - where engineers who > >should not be dealing with people wind up queering a deal. PR People > >serve a purpose. PR Spin doctors are an entirely different matter. > BTW, what do you mean by PR spin doctor? Know what a spin doctor is? Someone who takes a really bad situation or piss poor position (I.E. Apple computer corporation is FAMOUS for stretching the truth in this manner) and twisting around the presentation to make it sound much better than it really is. > >Bleugh. TNT2 way better. ;-) > But wasn't available at that time I bought my PC. I guess you're not like me. If I see a new piece of hardware that I want/like, I chuck the old stuff quick! > >Or what he'd do to your schlong. > Although I didn't hear the word before I know what it means... > BTW, is it a Jiddish word? Sounds like it. Dunno. I think Schlonga means Snake, doesn't it? In German? > >You'd have a Windows icon when you were > >flaccid, and a full blown startup screen when you were erect! ;-) > Hehe. And you'd have to push the Start button to pee ;-) And ctrl-alt-delete when you wanted to take a dump! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:39:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24639 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:39:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:39:20 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <200003240838.JAA30993@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Not true, actually. If you know ahead of time and can precharge the > > dynamic recompiler (hehe) with information about all the branches and > > points of entry, you can recompile the entire thing ahead of time. And > > that's sorta dynamic/static recompilation. > But how do you get this information about all this branches. You have to > execute all code or perhaps do a really slow analysis of code and sometimes > there are pieces of code hard to reach. Easy, you precharge the recompiler up front! That requires a bit of examination of the code, but it's probably very little work to do. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:46:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24665 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:46:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003240849.JAA01766@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 24, 2000 00:39:20 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:49:22 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Not true, actually. If you know ahead of time and can precharge the > > > dynamic recompiler (hehe) with information about all the branches and > > > points of entry, you can recompile the entire thing ahead of time. And > > > that's sorta dynamic/static recompilation. > > > But how do you get this information about all this branches. You have to > > execute all code or perhaps do a really slow analysis of code and sometimes > > there are pieces of code hard to reach. > > Easy, you precharge the recompiler up front! That requires a bit of > examination of the code, but it's probably very little work to do. > I think I'm not understanding you ... :( Perhaps if you explain a bit more. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 00:49:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24679 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:49:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:49:48 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <200003240849.JAA01766@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Easy, you precharge the recompiler up front! That requires a bit of > > examination of the code, but it's probably very little work to do. > I think I'm not understanding you ... :( Perhaps if you explain a bit > more. You say "Dude, righteous dude of recompilerdom... here's a list of addresses or "entry points" that you should attempt to recompile before trying to execute anything." The recompiler would start recompiling at those entry points until it runs through and recompiles the entire call tree. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:02:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24756 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:02:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB2E5B.EDF9DF4E@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:59:07 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Leave it to the Brits to get the punch line wrong. ;-) It's supposed to > go: > > "Oh no! Now how am I going to get that smell out of the fish?!?!?!" > > Makes God a bit more manic depressive! Yeah, but that was from memory. That's not bad for a joke you haven't heard in ages. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:07:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24768 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:07:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB2EF6.78AD1D25@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:01:42 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > You dumb Brits! ;-) If you already have a name for a donkey, why do you > use ass? ;-) I don't, but it's there. Hey, at least Britain has a higher national IQ than America! ;) > Actually, my heritage is British... parents are from Kent... Really? Hey, that's dahn sahth, init (down south, init)? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:10:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24786 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:10:52 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB2EF6.78AD1D25@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > You dumb Brits! ;-) If you already have a name for a donkey, why do you > > use ass? ;-) > I don't, but it's there. Hey, at least Britain has a higher national IQ > than America! ;) You just don't have the entire southeastern US throwing the curve. ;-) Is there such a thing as a redneck Brit? I.E. Someone who shags his sister or any other relative and has a collective IQ of .00004 squared? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:11:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24795 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB3010.38F39B5@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:06:24 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003240833.JAA14207@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Whatever, it was a new idea (store the framebuffer and everything else in > > memory and textures in main memory using AGP) which worked really well. > > Good fillrate and good graphics. Don't know about 2D speed though... > > Ok, in Direct3D works well, not as fast as a TNT or a Vodoo2 but works, but it > had a poor OpenGl support in the first drivers versions and now works but not as > well as I would like. For exemple I played Unreal in softmode (impressive > softmode !!) because OpenGl version didn't work. An i740 should be able to beat a TNT and Voodoo2. As I said, it was the fastest card around for a short period of time. Anyway, why would you play Unreal using OpenGL? The support Epic has for OpenGL sucks majorly. You can have the best ICD (OpenGL Installable Client Driver) in the world but anything Epic produces would run like crap. You should have played it in D3D. :) But yes, their software renderer is very, very impressive. > Another problem was I had only 64 MB of memory (I bought some more last month) > and I had to use 32MB for AGP memory so games usually did memory swapping. > But It doesn't matter, it was the best choice (price/quality) when I bought my > computer :) Even now the i740 is good. Though I've had 128MB RAM since before last year now. And I'll upgrade to 256 or 512MB RAM soon - memory prices are really cheap at the moment. The only thing stopping me from getting 512MB is the fact that the BX chipset will only cache the first 256MB RAM - so it will slow down quite drastically if I use more than 256MB. :-/ Still, I'll probably go either Athlon or P3 in a few months, so... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:12:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24804 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:12:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB30BF.C5078C2B@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:09:19 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > >Bleugh. TNT2 way better. ;-) > > But wasn't available at that time I bought my PC. > > I guess you're not like me. If I see a new piece of hardware that I > want/like, I chuck the old stuff quick! I can't always afford to do that. If I'm going to make a purchase, I do some analysis first and go for the best product for me. > > >You'd have a Windows icon when you were > > >flaccid, and a full blown startup screen when you were erect! ;-) > > Hehe. And you'd have to push the Start button to pee ;-) > > And ctrl-alt-delete when you wanted to take a dump! Maybe that's why some men are impotent. Their BIOS is configured to boot off the floppy drive but there's no floppy disk. Viagra is a fix for that which configures itself to boot off the HD where Windows is stored... :)) How the HELL did we get onto this topic? ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:26:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24842 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:26:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB3350.6A4801C2@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:20:16 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I don't, but it's there. Hey, at least Britain has a higher national IQ > > than America! ;) > > You just don't have the entire southeastern US throwing the curve. ;-) True. Or the nothern bit. Or the middle bit either. ;) > Is > there such a thing as a redneck Brit? I.E. Someone who shags his sister or > any other relative and has a collective IQ of .00004 squared? No, but that's quite funny. The Irish have a reputation for being thick and there are lots of jokes about Irish people. The Welsh have a reputation for shagging sheep (you may have heard them called "sheep shaggers" - I think the Australians say the same about people from New Zealand). Hmm, maybe if someones parents are Irish and Welsh, maybe... ;) Just think, though. If we did it across Europe, we'd also have a lower IQ score. We've got France to consider. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:26:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24851 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:26:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:26:47 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB30BF.C5078C2B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > >flaccid, and a full blown startup screen when you were erect! ;-) > > > Hehe. And you'd have to push the Start button to pee ;-) > > And ctrl-alt-delete when you wanted to take a dump! > Maybe that's why some men are impotent. Their BIOS is configured to boot > off the floppy drive but there's no floppy disk. Viagra is a fix for that > which configures itself to boot off the HD where Windows is stored... And God forbid what happens when your head hits a sector error.. > :)) > How the HELL did we get onto this topic? ;)) It started with Pocket Bill Gates. The cure for a permanent erection! I know whipping out a CE device with BG's picture on it would cure even the most ranging wood. BTW, Would you be interested in me posting when I'm intoxicated? I'll pick a topic and start talking about it. We started doing this as a ritual a few years ago when a friend of mine got really stoned and accidentally sent a really, REALLY strange message to a bunch of us. I was laughing at the message so hard that I couldn't breathe! If you're interested I'd be happy to post to you in an altered state. Here's the original article. For your amusement. Oddly, I got almost all of it 100% sober. Be forewarned, it's really, really strange. What the hell - shall we get REALLY off topic?: ---------------- Rambling rambling rambling rambling rambling. I did what you did tonight, and I'm having the most fun writing this message. I'm sitting here typing away smf lookinh sy yhr dyugg on yhr dvtrrn. Iy'd smsxinh and it feels so wonderful. I'm going to put my mind on autopilot and let you know about where it's going: Man, the kitchen in my house is a stoner's nightmare. Too many fucking cabinets! Where'd those damn Ritz crackers go! AAAAAUUGGGGGHHH!!!! Then there's the number of light switches. 7 Of 'em in the kitchen alone. I'm constantly turning on the back porch light when I'm trying to turn on the kitchen's light, and the garbage disposal instead of the overhead lights. They put the garbage disposal switch way over on the other side of the sink. Duh! Is it there so your kid can sit on the countertop and annoy the hell out of you from a distance? Remember how I was talking about that it'd be cool to market a product that is targeted at stoners but would sound like wholesome, legitimate slogans? I thought of one: "We bake the cookies, you bake the rest!". Most people would think "the rest" would mean "love" or something equally stupid. But the stoners would know about baking themselves in addition to the cookies. Think if they could get baked at the same time! I guess you're smart enough to figure it out without me going on for 400 lines about it. And now I'd like to talk to you about gum. Imagine a gum that tastes like Michelins, Pierelli's, Goodyears, and had the same consistency? And also had the same steel belts running through them? You could have on TV taste tests where people say, "Well, I prefer the Goodyear gum better because it sticks to your teeth more!" The Pierelli gum would be softer and would wear down much faster. Man, imagine if all tires in the world were made out of gum. It wouldn't be like normal, clean, factory fresh gum. It would have rocks & hairs in it, and a bunch of dirt because it had been on the roads. And how would it taste? A bit of 10/40 mixed in with that Bubblicious would sure be wonderful! Man, I don't even like gum. Let's stop talking about it. Eating a Ritz cracker is like eating a big cunk of a manhole cover. IT's got those little holes on the outside and the air comes through it and it's really cool. And when I put cheese on it, it's mud. Clean, cool, tastes-like-cheese, mud. I'm eating flying saucers right now. Ah, they taste good. I really wish I was at Roswell, NM right now to check out those aliens that landed. Do you think aliens get baked? Get baked and do something really crazy like phaser a planet or two, or give some poor sap an anal probe, or give them some things like the Achy-Breaky Heart, or ? Sort of an intergalactic cow-tipping? A frat initiation? A gang? Do you thinkt there are space gangs? Space pimps? Space Ho's? Space pirates? Space cadets? Space cases? Gun cases? Makes ya think, don't it? I had a dream this morning. There was a large government agency that was complaining to me that it was tough for them (in their airplanes) to land on the 405. They asked me what they should do about it. I replied, "Maybe you should get rid of the cars.". They all looked at eachother and said "Great idea!" They must've been managers. I burped. Burping feels so good. It's like your mouth is saying, "Hey, I want to be able to fart, too!", and a burp is what it was given. I burped really hard in my cat's face a long time ago. I had the most raunchy Mexican food breath you could possibly get and I came home. Drank tons of Cokes - basically pigged out. I was sitting on the couch and my cat came along. He started sniffing the air (in front of my face), and I turned to him, burped really hard, blew it in his face, and the cat started sneezing and coughing. Then he looked at me like I did something wrong. ;-) Time for bed. I'm Ritz'd out! -------------- -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:30:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24863 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:30:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:30:51 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB3350.6A4801C2@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > I don't, but it's there. Hey, at least Britain has a higher national IQ > > > than America! ;) > > You just don't have the entire southeastern US throwing the curve. ;-) > True. Or the nothern bit. Or the middle bit either. ;) Well, I'm from the Western US so I take no offense. ;-) I've found that stupidity is fairly equally distributed across all countries. They're just louder in the US. ;-) > > there such a thing as a redneck Brit? I.E. Someone who shags his sister or > > any other relative and has a collective IQ of .00004 squared? > No, but that's quite funny. The Irish have a reputation for being thick and > there are lots of jokes about Irish people. The Welsh have a reputation for Here's a good joke that an Irish person would know the answer to: Q: Why do you always shag a sheep next to the edge of a cliff? A: So it'll push back against you to keep from going over! > shagging sheep (you may have heard them called "sheep shaggers" - I think > the Australians say the same about people from New Zealand). Except the Australians *ARE* sheep shaggers and they're proud of it! > Just think, though. If we did it across Europe, we'd also have a lower IQ > score. We've got France to consider. ;) Lesse... An Irish, A redneck, an Australian, and a Frenchman cross - man, that would be an alcoholic inbred idiot who liked to shag sheep and wouldn't shave their amrpits or use deodorant. I just don't have the brain power to answer those big long assed messages. This stupid stuff is just too much fun for me. As you can probalby tell by tonights useless posts, I've had a fairly rough week... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:42:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24918 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:42:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003240945.KAA05445@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 24, 2000 00:49:48 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:45:08 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Easy, you precharge the recompiler up front! That requires a bit of > > > examination of the code, but it's probably very little work to do. > > > I think I'm not understanding you ... :( Perhaps if you explain a bit > > more. > > You say "Dude, righteous dude of recompilerdom... here's a list of > addresses or "entry points" that you should attempt to recompile before > trying to execute anything." The recompiler would start recompiling at > those entry points until it runs through and recompiles the entire call > tree. > Oh ... I think I'm a little sleep this morning because I can't understand you, it doesn't matter I will take a look to this later. By the way, what about next week topic? I have thought in talking about how emulators use memory cache. I'm thinking in emulators like StarScream (M68000) which have very large tables for decoding and a great number of called functions. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:58:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24971 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:58:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB3B8C.3CEF104B@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:55:24 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Maybe that's why some men are impotent. Their BIOS is configured to boot > > off the floppy drive but there's no floppy disk. Viagra is a fix for that > > which configures itself to boot off the HD where Windows is stored... > > And God forbid what happens when your head hits a sector error.. It also brings a whole new meaning to "anti-virus software", doesn't it? ;)) > > :)) > > How the HELL did we get onto this topic? ;)) > > It started with Pocket Bill Gates. The cure for a permanent erection! I > know whipping out a CE device with BG's picture on it would cure even the > most ranging wood. That's true, probably. Not something I want to try, mind. ;) > BTW, Would you be interested in me posting when I'm intoxicated? I'll pick > a topic and start talking about it. We started doing this as a ritual a > few years ago when a friend of mine got really stoned and accidentally > sent a really, REALLY strange message to a bunch of us. I was laughing at > the message so hard that I couldn't breathe! If you're interested I'd be > happy to post to you in an altered state. Here's the original article. > For your amusement. Oddly, I got almost all of it 100% sober. Be > forewarned, it's really, really strange. You're right, it's strange. But it's as funny as hell! I guess you've got to know people when they're stoned and you're not to really appreciate this message. :) Anyway, as for you, why not? Could be funny. Yes, definitely. :) Why the hell, though, when stoned, do you feel hungry - no matter how much you've had? It's the same when you've drunk a lot too... :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 01:58:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24980 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003241001.LAA23666@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB3010.38F39B5@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 24, 2000 10:06:24 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:01:33 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > Whatever, it was a new idea (store the framebuffer and everything else in > > > memory and textures in main memory using AGP) which worked really well. > > > Good fillrate and good graphics. Don't know about 2D speed though... > > > > Ok, in Direct3D works well, not as fast as a TNT or a Vodoo2 but works, but it > > had a poor OpenGl support in the first drivers versions and now works but not as > > well as I would like. For exemple I played Unreal in softmode (impressive > > softmode !!) because OpenGl version didn't work. > > An i740 should be able to beat a TNT and Voodoo2. As I said, it was the > fastest card around for a short period of time. > Are you sure? How have you figured this? Reading Intel publicity? I think this is hard to believe, but I haven't seen a TNT or Vodoo2 running so I don't know. > Anyway, why would you play Unreal using OpenGL? The support Epic has for > OpenGL sucks majorly. You can have the best ICD (OpenGL Installable Client > Driver) in the world but anything Epic produces would run like crap. You > should have played it in D3D. :) > But when I played Unreal the D3D renderer didn't exist, and later was so buggy it ever crashed. I don't know how works now, I played Unreal about a year ago. > But yes, their software renderer is very, very impressive. > Indeed. The better soft renderer I never seen :) > > Another problem was I had only 64 MB of memory (I bought some more last month) > > and I had to use 32MB for AGP memory so games usually did memory swapping. > > But It doesn't matter, it was the best choice (price/quality) when I bought my > > computer :) > > Even now the i740 is good. Though I've had 128MB RAM since before last year > now. And I'll upgrade to 256 or 512MB RAM soon - memory prices are really > cheap at the moment. The only thing stopping me from getting 512MB is the > fact that the BX chipset will only cache the first 256MB RAM - so it will > slow down quite drastically if I use more than 256MB. :-/ > Oh i740 still works but some games (like GP500 - I don't like it my brother uses it) are a bit slow sometimes, and UltraHLE and Impact (and now FF8 with VGS when calling a GUARDIAN FORCE) are a bit slow, in fact in what hellish machine can run Toshinden 2 or Rival Schools, in a 800 Mhz and 512 MB with a TNT GFORCE? > Still, I'll probably go either Athlon or P3 in a few months, so... :) > I don't have so much money :(. Perhaps I will overclock it to 500 MHz :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:02:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25107 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB3C64.584CC2B9@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:59:00 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > > You just don't have the entire southeastern US throwing the curve. ;-) > > True. Or the nothern bit. Or the middle bit either. ;) > > Well, I'm from the Western US so I take no offense. ;-) I've found that > stupidity is fairly equally distributed across all countries. They're just > louder in the US. ;-) Yes, that's true. :) Actually, I left out West US on purpose. The only intelligent Americans I've ever spoken to for any length of time were from there. I didn't know you were from there, though! :) > > No, but that's quite funny. The Irish have a reputation for being thick and > > there are lots of jokes about Irish people. The Welsh have a reputation for > > Here's a good joke that an Irish person would know the answer to: > > Q: Why do you always shag a sheep next to the edge of a cliff? > A: So it'll push back against you to keep from going over! A Welsh person would, allegedly. Never heard that one before. That's funny. :) > > shagging sheep (you may have heard them called "sheep shaggers" - I think > > the Australians say the same about people from New Zealand). > > Except the Australians *ARE* sheep shaggers and they're proud of it! Yes, I know - and that it makes it so much more ironic. But they don't see the irony themselves... :)) > > Just think, though. If we did it across Europe, we'd also have a lower IQ > > score. We've got France to consider. ;) > > Lesse... An Irish, A redneck, an Australian, and a Frenchman cross - man, > that would be an alcoholic inbred idiot who liked to shag sheep and > wouldn't shave their amrpits or use deodorant. I think there should be a world treaty just to stop this from happening. Oh, damn, it already has. Australians. ;)) > I just don't have the brain power to answer those big long assed messages. > This stupid stuff is just too much fun for me. As you can probalby tell by > tonights useless posts, I've had a fairly rough week... I understand that. Besides, these funny posts are really funny. That's why I'm replying. :) Besides, it's Friday and I've worked over 40 hours so far this week. I'm the same! :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:06:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25124 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB3CF6.13DC6410@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:01:26 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003240945.KAA05445@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > You say "Dude, righteous dude of recompilerdom... here's a list of > > addresses or "entry points" that you should attempt to recompile before > > trying to execute anything." The recompiler would start recompiling at > > those entry points until it runs through and recompiles the entire call > > tree. > > > Oh ... I think I'm a little sleep this morning because I can't understand you, > it doesn't matter I will take a look to this later. He means that if you perform analysis yourself on the code you will recompile, you can look for pieces of code that should be compiled BEFORE you start the execution (and compilation) stage. Like I talked about for static compilation (when I said 'mapping' and everyone got confused!). > By the way, what about next week topic? > I have thought in talking about how emulators use memory cache. I'm thinking in > emulators like StarScream (M68000) which have very large tables for decoding and > a great number of called functions. That or how can we speed up CPU cores? Is memory cache a good technique? What others are there? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:12:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25191 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB3EC9.34708CA2@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:09:13 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003241001.LAA23666@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > An i740 should be able to beat a TNT and Voodoo2. As I said, it was the > > fastest card around for a short period of time. > > > Are you sure? How have you figured this? Reading Intel publicity? I think > this is hard to believe, but I haven't seen a TNT or Vodoo2 running so I don't > know. I figured it out in a number of ways, but the best one was benchmarks. I've benchmarked an i740 and seen it for myself. It's very impressive. Although a V2 would beat it in multitexturing when I think about it... > > But yes, their software renderer is very, very impressive. > > > Indeed. The better soft renderer I never seen :) "Ever" seen. And yes, it certainly is. :) > > Even now the i740 is good. Though I've had 128MB RAM since before last year > > now. And I'll upgrade to 256 or 512MB RAM soon - memory prices are really > > cheap at the moment. The only thing stopping me from getting 512MB is the > > fact that the BX chipset will only cache the first 256MB RAM - so it will > > slow down quite drastically if I use more than 256MB. :-/ > > > Oh i740 still works but some games (like GP500 - I don't like it my brother uses > it) are a bit slow sometimes, and UltraHLE and Impact (and now FF8 with VGS when > calling a GUARDIAN FORCE) are a bit slow, in fact in what hellish machine can run > Toshinden 2 or Rival Schools, in a 800 Mhz and 512 MB with a TNT GFORCE? I've got the fillrate with my S2K, but I don't know whether my 450/128MB is good enough... Mind you, I'm not so interested in the games emulated by Impact. I'm more interested by the technology behind it... > > Still, I'll probably go either Athlon or P3 in a few months, so... :) > > I don't have so much money :(. Perhaps I will overclock it to 500 MHz :) I don't have that money now. But I will have. I'll get it before I leave Germany and live with it for the year or so that I'm in Uni... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:14:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25200 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:14:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003241017.LAA32709@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB3CF6.13DC6410@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 24, 2000 11:01:26 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:17:26 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > By the way, what about next week topic? > > I have thought in talking about how emulators use memory cache. I'm thinking in > > emulators like StarScream (M68000) which have very large tables for decoding and > > a great number of called functions. > > That or how can we speed up CPU cores? Is memory cache a good technique? > What others are there? > Ok, today I'm grogui, it's better I go home ... I'm meaning to say a cache memory. How in hell a 512KB cache can manage MB's of code randomly used. Now I'm confusing everyone :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:20:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25219 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:20:42 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB3B8C.3CEF104B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > happy to post to you in an altered state. Here's the original article. > > For your amusement. Oddly, I got almost all of it 100% sober. Be > > forewarned, it's really, really strange. > You're right, it's strange. But it's as funny as hell! I guess you've got > to know people when they're stoned and you're not to really appreciate this > message. :) It's one of those famous "Hey! Let's tape record ourselves and play it back later!" episodes. Ever done that? It's either really funny or really, REALLY stupid! > Anyway, as for you, why not? Could be funny. Yes, definitely. :) Okay - give me a list of topics to talk about while intoxicated and I'll post about it tomorrow night (or the night after depending upon which night I'll be out of it). Make it any topic at all... Even computers and something on topic for this list, too! > Why the hell, though, when stoned, do you feel hungry - no matter how much > you've had? It's the same when you've drunk a lot too... :o I think the stoned/eating thing is more habitual. You get used to eating a single Haagen Daaz (sp?) and before you know it the whole fucking box is gone. It's even more fun when you do the association game. You eat something and close your eyes and imagine what it is, or the first thing that pops into your mind. For example: Chocolate pudding - Cold, wet, slug Triscuit - Bales of hay Watermellon - Fruit flavored kitchen sponges Fritos - Salty rocks Soup - Warm dishwater Tootsie roll - Lipstick I hope that I'm not just rambling and that people are being amused by this... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:26:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25235 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:26:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003241028.LAA27419@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB3EC9.34708CA2@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 24, 2000 11:09:13 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:28:21 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I figured it out in a number of ways, but the best one was benchmarks. I've > benchmarked an i740 and seen it for myself. It's very impressive. Although > a V2 would beat it in multitexturing when I think about it... > Ok, then you know what you are talking about. > > Indeed. The better soft renderer I never seen :) > > "Ever" seen. And yes, it certainly is. :) > Oh, sorry :) Bad english fast writing. > I've got the fillrate with my S2K, but I don't know whether my 450/128MB is > good enough... Mind you, I'm not so interested in the games emulated by > Impact. I'm more interested by the technology behind it... > I'm not so interested in this kind of games, I was only testing it and I saw how slow works. And I'm really interested in knowing how they have emulated such machines. I don't know what kind of machines are, 32 bits procs and 3D hardware I think but not sure. Perhaps someone could try to ask them about the technology, perhaps they are interested in a dynarec list where people talk about all topics but dynamic recompilation. By the way the only games I really like are RPGs, I love old console RPGs. > > > Still, I'll probably go either Athlon or P3 in a few months, so... :) > > > > I don't have so much money :(. Perhaps I will overclock it to 500 MHz :) > > I don't have that money now. But I will have. I'll get it before I leave > Germany and live with it for the year or so that I'm in Uni... > I will have money soon too. I have started to work in my Uni this month. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:47:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25288 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB46E3.59E641FA@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:43:47 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003241017.LAA32709@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > That or how can we speed up CPU cores? Is memory cache a good technique? > > What others are there? > > Ok, today I'm grogui, it's better I go home ... :) You were right, though. You can say a memory cache or cache memory. It means the same when you get down to it. > I'm meaning to say a cache memory. How in hell a 512KB cache can manage MB's > of code randomly used. Now I'm confusing everyone :) You have to know whether something you've just run is in the cache. If it is, you run it from the cache. Useful for loops... That's highly simplified and the implementation would be quite difficult... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:51:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25300 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:51:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB4774.E172809F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:46:12 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > It's one of those famous "Hey! Let's tape record ourselves and play it > back later!" episodes. Ever done that? It's either really funny or really, > REALLY stupid! Once, when drunk, and you realise that what you said wasn't as clearly pronounced as you thought it was... :) > > Anyway, as for you, why not? Could be funny. Yes, definitely. :) > > Okay - give me a list of topics to talk about while intoxicated and I'll > post about it tomorrow night (or the night after depending upon which > night I'll be out of it). Make it any topic at all... Even computers and > something on topic for this list, too! Ooh, I don't know. Maybe I can think of some later. It may be better for you to just write about whatever you're thinking about though... :) > > Why the hell, though, when stoned, do you feel hungry - no matter how much > > you've had? It's the same when you've drunk a lot too... :o > > I think the stoned/eating thing is more habitual. You get used to eating a > single Haagen Daaz (sp?) and before you know it the whole fucking box is > gone. It's even more fun when you do the association game. You eat > something and close your eyes and imagine what it is, or the first thing > that pops into your mind. For example: > > Triscuit - Bales of hay Don't know this > Fritos - Salty rocks Or this. > Tootsie roll - Lipstick Or this. And I don't know what a twinkie is either, so I'm not a proper programmer - allegedly. :) > I hope that I'm not just rambling and that people are being amused by > this... Well, at least two people are amused. You and me. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 02:52:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA25309 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:52:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB480B.1ADDCF09@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:48:43 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003241028.LAA27419@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I figured it out in a number of ways, but the best one was benchmarks. I've > > benchmarked an i740 and seen it for myself. It's very impressive. Although > > a V2 would beat it in multitexturing when I think about it... > > > Ok, then you know what you are talking about. I hope so. It's an interest of mine. I generally make people agree with me no matter how biased they are. You can do that when you know what you're talking about - which is why I do my research when it comes to 3D and 3D cards. :) > Oh, sorry :) Bad english fast writing. Easy mistake to make. :) > I'm not so interested in this kind of games, I was only testing it and I saw how > slow works. And I'm really interested in knowing how they have emulated such > machines. I don't know what kind of machines are, 32 bits procs and 3D hardware > I think but not sure. Perhaps someone could try to ask them about the > technology, perhaps they are interested in a dynarec list where people talk > about all topics but dynamic recompilation. I had heard that the machine was similar to PSX hardware. If so then the speed is terrible. If it isn't, then the speed is acceptable... > By the way the only games I really like are RPGs, I love old console RPGs. I like all types of games including these RPGs. But my heart is with platform games I think. My all-time favourite game is Bubble Bobble. :) > > I don't have that money now. But I will have. I'll get it before I leave > > Germany and live with it for the year or so that I'm in Uni... > > I will have money soon too. I have started to work in my Uni this month. Good! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 03:04:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA25345 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:04:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB4AD7.71905D86@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:00:39 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Okay - give me a list of topics to talk about while intoxicated and I'll > post about it tomorrow night (or the night after depending upon which > night I'll be out of it). Make it any topic at all... Even computers and > something on topic for this list, too! I've got some topic for you! - What do you think of the emu scene recently? - Who is the best and worse person/group in the scene I'll think of some more later, but I think those are pretty wide and could give interesting answers. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 03:31:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA25406 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB51AB.C2A575EB@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:29:47 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003241028.LAA27419@pons.ac.upc.es> <38DB480B.1ADDCF09@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > > I had heard that the machine was similar to PSX hardware. If so then the > speed is terrible. If it isn't, then the speed is acceptable... > Perhaps some research should be done on this topic. > > > By the way the only games I really like are RPGs, I love old console RPGs. > > I like all types of games including these RPGs. But my heart is with > platform games I think. My all-time favourite game is Bubble Bobble. :) > Bubble Bobble is a really nice game :) I like it too. I usually don´t like plataform games but there are someones that are really fun as Bubble Bobble. Lately I have been playing a bit Metal Slug, what a game! ;). But the best games for me are Japanese RPGs and the best game company is SquareSoft. But I don´t know much Japanese so I can´t really play them :( By the way what's your favorite game company. I vote for Konami and SquareSoft, but this last has very few games others than RPGs. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 03:41:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA25432 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB537B.B9129374@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:37:31 +0100 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003241028.LAA27419@pons.ac.upc.es> <38DB480B.1ADDCF09@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > > I hope so. It's an interest of mine. I generally make people agree with me > no matter how biased they are. You can do that when you know what you're > talking about - which is why I do my research when it comes to 3D and 3D > cards. :) > So you share a lot of things with NB: the same name, you like to make your owns implementations and you make people agree with you ! ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 04:56:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA25521 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:56:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB6578.8DD4D438@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:54:16 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003241028.LAA27419@pons.ac.upc.es> <38DB480B.1ADDCF09@eurocopter.de> <38DB537B.B9129374@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > So you share a lot of things with NB: the same name, you like to make your owns > implementations and you make people agree with you ! ;) It does seem that way, doesn't it? Ah well. I just do things in the way that seems most obvious and correct to me. It may not always be the best way, but hey - you'll never learn if you don't try. Which is a philosophy I follow - it explains why I prefer to do things from scratch. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 04:56:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA25531 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB64ED.E3832ECF@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:51:57 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003241028.LAA27419@pons.ac.upc.es> <38DB480B.1ADDCF09@eurocopter.de> <38DB51AB.C2A575EB@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I had heard that the machine was similar to PSX hardware. If so then the > > speed is terrible. If it isn't, then the speed is acceptable... > > Perhaps some research should be done on this topic. On the machine? Certainly. On the authors? I think they want to remain anonymous, so we can't ask them anything! > > I like all types of games including these RPGs. But my heart is with > > platform games I think. My all-time favourite game is Bubble Bobble. :) > > > > Bubble Bobble is a really nice game :) I like it too. I usually don´t like plataform > games but there are someones that are really fun as Bubble Bobble. Lately I have been > playing a bit Metal Slug, what a game! ;). But the best games for me are Japanese > RPGs and the best game company is SquareSoft. But I don´t know much Japanese so I > can´t really play them :( By the way what's your favorite game company. I vote for > Konami and SquareSoft, but this last has very few games others than RPGs. Erm... I can't remember their name! My god... anyway, they wrote all those cutsey games like Bubble Bobble, Rainbow Islands and so on... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25678 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:03:37 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Know what a spin doctor is? Someone who takes a really bad situation or >piss poor position (I.E. Apple computer corporation is FAMOUS for >stretching the truth in this manner) and twisting around the presentation >to make it sound much better than it really is. Ah, it's someone who spins the situation round. >Dunno. I think Schlonga means Snake, doesn't it? In German? The German word for snake is "Schlange" ;-) But in that case the term would be "Schlaengel" AFAIK... >And ctrl-alt-delete when you wanted to take a dump! Yeah, and it's always so difficult to hit these keys on your back ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25685 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:04:40 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Traduccion dinamica con generacion de codigo, volatil y sin deteccion de codigo >automodificable (todavia). TDGCVDCA in spanish or TraDiGeCoVoDeCoAu ;) Wow, the Spanish translation just sounds cool! Hey, what about using Spanish terms instead of English ones? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25694 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:57:32 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No, it's something called Dixie. I think I give you an address with the >documentation ... But really doesn't matter, it's as slow as hell. Oops, you're right. I downloaded the document you mentioned some time ago and even took a brief look at it, but somehow I got things mixed up. When do those hardware geeks invent the flash ROM brain upgrade??? >Are you sure? Shade perfoms profiling and it don't have an interpreter ;) Uh, either I really have a memory leak or I just missed that point when I read the Shade document... >But >perform profiling in translated code would be something more difficult than in >an interpreter and then you would have to retranslate. But I think it's possible >to do this. I guess you're right in both cases. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25701 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:54:06 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id GAA25695 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Oh. Well, I bought a Celeron 300A last year in January. Overclocked it to >450MHz and it still works fine. That was absolutely the best deal I have >ever got on a piece of computer hardware! One of my friends overclocked his Celeron and got lots of crashes due to this. >Yes, I agree. I played Jedi Knight right to the end and then started on >MOTS. I was interested in Jedi Knight from the beginning but I didn't have a PC to paly it at that time, so I bought both games in a cheap bundle not too long ago. >The new game "Obi-Wan" (or whatever it's called) should hopefully be >much cooler with better gameplay and better graphics. We'll see... I hope so! Apart from Force Commander this is one of the games I'm longing for! Yes, I *am* a Star Wars maniac. >It was never the best card - ever - and so long as you're still happy with >it, that's good. You obviously don't use it for 3D graphics too heavily >because we're talking speeds that are only slightly better than an original >Voodoo... I have many games running fluently at 1024x768, a resolution you cannot reach with Voodoo 2. >> You really seem to have a language problem. >Yes, my German. ;p Dem will ich nicht widersprechen, so lange ich Dein Deutsch noch nicht genossen habe ;-) >It's a saying. It means that you get up early and stay up late - burning >the candle at both ends. Aha. >I'll just kill them with Vodka shots or something. :)) I thought you Welsh guys would have whiskey or so? Well, actually the translation of whiskey means about the same as vodka... BTW, there is a nice example how bad machine translation is. An English proverb (don't know the literal saying, but you should be able to reconstruct it) was translated to Russion and back again. The result was: "The whiskey is strong but the flesh is rotten." ;-) >And then I can go back to REAL drinks. :) What is real for you? >I couldn't when I wrote that, I was at work. I think. :) Cogito ergo sum? >> >And you call MY joke bad! ;) >> Hehe. Didn't you like that one? >I think I'd heard it before. Strange, because it's a joke I invented some time ago... >Hey, it's not my fault that I confuse everyone else! It's not my fault I'm >sooooo much more intelligent than you! ;))) The maniacs never realise how nuts they are ;-) >No idea what you mean about the semi-vowels [w] and [j] - I've never heard >this... [j] as in [jelou], "yellow" [w] as in [wiski], "whiskey" But you will use "a whiskey" instead of "an whiskey", which is another reason for it being only a semi-vowel. >Okay, but what about [c], [h], [q], [r], [s], [y] ? I'm not sure why [c] is but I guess you mean the phoneme [k]: That's a velar plosive. Meaning the back of your tongue touches the soft palate to hinder the air flow and is then released suddenly to produce an exploding sound. [h] is a glottal fricative, so the vocal cords produce friction. [q] I don't know that phoneme and it's no English phoneme. If you mean the letter "q", that can be either [kj] when you pronouce the letter "Q", but most of the time it will be [kw] as in queen, quick, ... [r] is a post-alveolar (somewhere between your upper teeth and the hard palate) approximant according to one of my books. I think I would have called it a fricative. BTW, there are several other ways to pronounce "r". One is [R] where the friction is produced by the uvula. The sign for the other one looks like an "R" turned upside down, and is the "r" spoken in some parts of the US where the tongue bends back. [s] is easy: the tip of your tongue touches the region behind your upper teeth to produce friction which is an alveolar fricative. [y] is not a phoneme of English but actually the sign for one of German's long mutants as in "über". If you meant the letter "y" as in "you" this is pronounced as [ju:]. Believe me, I learnt English and German phonetics... >Maybe. I've heard that it involves taking a long walk off a short pier >(erm... you probably won't know this word... Maybe clifftop as a >replacement?). :) This time even understood your first sentence... >It's strange. All Germans seem to agree with me on this one. But no- one >changes it! Standard question of my niece: Why? >Well, if there are, between us I believe we could have offended them. :) I thought you didn't want to offend anyone ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25715 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:06:17 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Maybe that's why some men are impotent. Their BIOS is configured to boot >off the floppy drive but there's no floppy disk. Viagra is a fix for that >which configures itself to boot off the HD where Windows is stored... Hehe... >How the HELL did we get onto this topic? ;)) It started when I called you a PocketBG ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25716 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:00:39 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> > With this classification NB's method could be called: >> > volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code >> > detection (yet) >VCEDTWSMCD! ;-) Heh, NB seems to like it ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25719 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:07:20 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >By the way, what about next week topic? >I have thought in talking about how emulators use memory cache. I'm thinking in >emulators like StarScream (M68000) which have very large tables for decoding and >a great number of called functions. Nice idea. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25730 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:09:18 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ok, today I'm grogui, it's better I go home ... We have the same word in German, but I don't know how it is spelled... >I'm meaning to say a cache memory. How in hell a 512KB cache can manage MB's >of code randomly used. Now I'm confusing everyone :) Especially when it's direct-mapped crap... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25738 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:11:05 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >By the way the only games I really like are RPGs, I love old console RPGs. I perfer the really old RPGs with dice and pencil... But I was alwasy a fan of LucasArts adventures! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:13:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25747 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:13:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:12:23 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I like all types of games including these RPGs. But my heart is with >platform games I think. My all-time favourite game is Bubble Bobble. :) I loved to play that on the C64 with one of my friends: "Hurry up!" ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:34:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25804 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:34:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB7C9B.B4781079@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:32:59 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > One of my friends overclocked his Celeron and got lots of crashes due > to this. Haha! I got one of the good ones. In fact, it's from the batch that are meant to go to 512 stably. Not tried, am not going to try either. > >Yes, I agree. I played Jedi Knight right to the end and then started > on > >MOTS. > > I was interested in Jedi Knight from the beginning but I didn't have a > PC to paly it at that time, so I bought both games in a cheap bundle > not too long ago. Yes, I've seen them in places like "Saturn". I bought the full price. Arse! > I hope so! Apart from Force Commander this is one of the games I'm > longing for! > Yes, I *am* a Star Wars maniac. I'm not a maniac, but I do like SW a lot. > I have many games running fluently at 1024x768, a resolution you cannot > reach with Voodoo 2. Not a single one, at least. Or you can with the Diamond Monster drivers - but you take a hit in speed... > >> You really seem to have a language problem. > >Yes, my German. ;p > > Dem will ich nicht widersprechen, so lange ich Dein Deutsch noch nicht > genossen habe ;-) Fine, you do that then. And speak in strange English I will, hmmm. ;) > >I'll just kill them with Vodka shots or something. :)) > > I thought you Welsh guys would have whiskey or so? Well, actually the > translation of whiskey means about the same as vodka... Whiskey is more Scottish and Irish than Welsh. We've got... bugger! What have we got? Well, the Welsh have got food with lots of alchohol involved. I don't know a single Welsh meal that doesn't involve a lot of alchohol. :) > BTW, there is a nice example how bad machine translation is. An English > proverb (don't know the literal saying, but you should be able to > reconstruct it) was translated to Russion and back again. The result > was: > "The whiskey is strong but the flesh is rotten." ;-) No, I don't know this one! > >And then I can go back to REAL drinks. :) > > What is real for you? I don't know. Non-spirit based. Cider (Apfelwein?) and Beer etc... > >I couldn't when I wrote that, I was at work. I think. :) > > Cogito ergo sum? The difference between you and me is that you've studied Latin. ;) > >> Hehe. Didn't you like that one? > >I think I'd heard it before. > > Strange, because it's a joke I invented some time ago... Really? Then either someone spread it - or someone else invented it too! :) > >Hey, it's not my fault that I confuse everyone else! It's not my fault > I'm > >sooooo much more intelligent than you! ;))) > > The maniacs never realise how nuts they are ;-) The difference between genius and madness is that one person has letters after their name. ;) > But you will use "a whiskey" instead of "an whiskey", which is another > reason for it being only a semi-vowel. Oh, okay. > >Okay, but what about [c], [h], [q], [r], [s], [y] ? > > I'm not sure why [c] is but I guess you mean the phoneme [k]: > That's a velar plosive. Meaning the back of your tongue touches the > soft palate to hinder the air flow and is then released suddenly to > produce an exploding sound. > > [h] is a glottal fricative, so the vocal cords produce friction. Whatever, it's still a semi-vowel. People taking Degrees in English learn this! > Believe me, I learnt English and German phonetics... I believe you, I believe you... ;) > >Maybe. I've heard that it involves taking a long walk off a short pier > >(erm... you probably won't know this word... Maybe clifftop as a > >replacement?). :) > > This time even understood your first sentence... Oh, good. I wasn't sure that you would. Good. :) > >It's strange. All Germans seem to agree with me on this one. But no- > one > >changes it! > > Standard question of my niece: Why? 1234. That number. The way in which other languages makes sense - you read the number from left to right (or, in fact, you have to count the amount of numbers and THEN read from left to right). With German, you read from left to right until the last two number where you swap. > >Well, if there are, between us I believe we could have offended them. > :) > > I thought you didn't want to offend anyone ;-) I don't. But I'd rather offend one person than an entire country. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:37:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25831 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB7D46.429CFC9B@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:35:50 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I loved to play that on the C64 with one of my friends: "Hurry up!" ;-) "Get the umbrella!" "EXTEND! GET THE EXTEND!!" ;) It was exactly the same for me with one of my friends - still on the C64! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 06:37:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25839 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:37:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DB7D09.5A559513@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:34:49 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Ok, today I'm grogui, it's better I go home ... > > We have the same word in German, but I don't know how it is spelled... We too have the same word. It's spelt "groggy" and is a strange feeling of either being tired or drunk. Or ill. Or any combination of those three. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 07:11:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA25939 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:08:01 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Haha! I got one of the good ones. In fact, it's from the batch that are >meant to go to 512 stably. Not tried, am not going to try either. Lucky you. >Yes, I've seen them in places like "Saturn". I bought the full price. Arse! Sometimes it's worth to wait... But for games like Half-Life you have to buy it immeditely in Germany, because after one or two weeks the original game is forbidden and replaced by a German version where you shoot robots... They even changed Command & Conquer, it sounds like squishing cans when you drive over soldiers... How cheap to have a cyborg for only 100 bucks! >> Dem will ich nicht widersprechen, so lange ich Dein Deutsch noch nicht >> genossen habe ;-) >Fine, you do that then. Did you understand anything? >And speak in strange English I will, hmmm. ;) If 900 years you are old, the same way will you speak... >Whiskey is more Scottish and Irish than Welsh. We've got... bugger! What >have we got? Well, the Welsh have got food with lots of alchohol involved. >I don't know a single Welsh meal that doesn't involve a lot of alchohol. :) Liquid food ;-) BTW, did you know that Bavarians call beer "liquid bread"? >> Cogito ergo sum? >The difference between you and me is that you've studied Latin. ;) Studied is the wrong word! I had it at school and I hated it! BTW, the sentence above means: "I think, therefore I am." >Really? Then either someone spread it - or someone else invented it too! :) The joke was so obvious that it will be the latter case. >The difference between genius and madness is that one person has letters >after their name. ;) Hehe. >I believe you, I believe you... ;) No more phonetics lessons? ;-) >1234. That number. The way in which other languages makes sense - you read >the number from left to right (or, in fact, you have to count the amount of >numbers and THEN read from left to right). With German, you read from left >to right until the last two number where you swap. Well, you have to be... different ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 07:11:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA25946 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:11:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:12:15 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >We too have the same word. It's spelt "groggy" and is a strange feeling of >either being tired or drunk. Or ill. Or any combination of those three. :) For us it's like a synonym for "exhausted" or we say "fix und foxy" (originally this was "fix und fertig" and was adjusted to the name of an old comic). >"Get the umbrella!" >"EXTEND! GET THE EXTEND!!" Yeah, collect the letters ;-) >It was exactly the same for me with one of my friends - still on the C64! Ah, the good lod days when we used to sit in front of the same computer (not separated by a network) and there was alot of comunication because the games simple needed hours to load ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 09:29:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26312 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:29:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DBA5AC.746DEFD5@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:28:12 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Haha! I got one of the good ones. In fact, it's from the batch that > are > >meant to go to 512 stably. Not tried, am not going to try either. > > Lucky you. Well, I did wait until my friend bought one before buying. :) > >Yes, I've seen them in places like "Saturn". I bought the full price. > Arse! > > Sometimes it's worth to wait... > But for games like Half-Life you have to buy it immeditely in Germany, > because after one or two weeks the original game is forbidden and > replaced by a German version where you shoot robots... I'd heard about that, yes. :o > They even changed Command & Conquer, it sounds like squishing cans when > you drive over soldiers... How cheap to have a cyborg for only 100 > bucks! Really? Heh. Didn't know about C&C though... :)) > >> Dem will ich nicht widersprechen, so lange ich Dein Deutsch noch > nicht > >> genossen habe ;-) > >Fine, you do that then. > > Did you understand anything? I think so. I could be wrong. Something like "Then I will not speak (clearly?), so that my german you don't have exactly". Doesn't make sense, really... :)) > >And speak in strange English I will, hmmm. ;) > > If 900 years you are old, the same way will you speak... Hmm, yes, hmm... :) > >I don't know a single Welsh meal that doesn't involve a lot of > >alchohol. :) > > Liquid food ;-) > BTW, did you know that Bavarians call beer "liquid bread"? I didn't until you told me, no. Heh. :) > Studied is the wrong word! I had it at school and I hated it! I hated most things at school that were non-computer related. So I like Science, Maths and IT and didn't like much else. > BTW, the sentence above means: "I think, therefore I am." Ah. Why latin, though? I'd have thought it better in Greek! :) > >The difference between genius and madness is that one person has > >letters after their name. ;) > > Hehe. And the scary thing is... it's true! :o > >I believe you, I believe you... ;) > > No more phonetics lessons? ;-) No! I give up! Please! ;) > >1234. That number. The way in which other languages makes sense - you > read > >the number from left to right (or, in fact, you have to count the > amount of > >numbers and THEN read from left to right). With German, you read from > left > >to right until the last two number where you swap. > > Well, you have to be... different ;-) You do if you're German, anyway. Or French. Hell, if you're anybody else, you're different. Hmm... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 09:33:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26336 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:33:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DBA64F.E3685835@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:30:55 +0100 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > For us it's like a synonym for "exhausted" or we say "fix und foxy" > (originally this was "fix und fertig" and was adjusted to the name of > an old comic). Yes, it sort of has the same meaning. At least, you could use it and I'd understand... > >"Get the umbrella!" > >"EXTEND! GET THE EXTEND!!" > > Yeah, collect the letters ;-) That's the one. :) > >It was exactly the same for me with one of my friends - still on the > C64! > > Ah, the good lod days when we used to sit in front of the same computer > (not separated by a network) and there was alot of comunication because > the games simple needed hours to load ;-) Yep. That's what emulation doesn't emulate - the waiting times! We want the... oh... do we? :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 24 10:45:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26577 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:45:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:44:50 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com [Half-Life] >I'd heard about that, yes. :o It's weird, isn't it? >> >> Dem will ich nicht widersprechen, so lange ich Dein Deutsch noch >> nicht >> >> genossen habe ;-) >I think so. I could be wrong. Something like "Then I will not speak >(clearly?), so that my german you don't have exactly". Doesn't make sense, >really... :)) "I don't want to contradict as long as I haven't experienced your German." >Ah. Why latin, though? I'd have thought it better in Greek! :) OK, tell us the Greek quote then ;-) >No! I give up! Please! ;) You surrender? This fast? >You do if you're German, anyway. Or French. Hell, if you're anybody else, >you're different. Hmm... :) Now you are beginning to be philosophically... >Yep. That's what emulation doesn't emulate - the waiting times! We want >the... oh... do we? :) Just start VICE on a slow computer and enable truedrive emulation ;-) But the compatability of all PSX emulators sux: the CD-ROM drive is way too fast! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 25 05:47:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA31883 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 05:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:47:47 CET From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, I think another interesting topic could be how to identify emulator fakes. I mean all Amiga emulators before UAE were more or less fakes but still many people thought them to be real. The other extreme is bleem. When it was first announced almost everyone (including me) thought that it must be a fake. It might have been due to the weird name, the strange first webpage they had, and some PR talk about the emulator. I still don't think that a b/w mode for FMVs is that much faster than colour... But still it was real, even if not perfect. The newest example is someone who claims to have done 80% of a Dreamcast emulator and to even have some commercial games running. I mean, just remember how long N64 emulation needed to get a few games running, then you'll know that this cannot be true. Also the specs the "author" mentions are too low. A P2-266 is way too slow to emulate a SH-4, which has four times the FP performance! But the biggest joke is how he claims to be able to read the 1GB GD- ROMs. According to him the DC reads CDs in *reverse* and he claims to have written a CD-ROM driver which operates the same way. Even if the DC should work this way I'm really not sure if it would be possible to do such tricks with a normal CD-ROM drive! Your opinions? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 25 14:38:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA33080 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:38:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:38:23 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > The other extreme is bleem. When it was first announced almost everyone > (including me) thought that it must be a fake. It might have been due > to the weird name, the strange first webpage they had, and some PR talk > about the emulator. I still don't think that a b/w mode for FMVs is > that much faster than colour... > But still it was real, even if not perfect. People called Retrocade a fake, too. There's two sides of it - those who spend all their time denouncing the existence of an emulator they'd rather see NOT exist and the opposite end of people claiming to have something everyone want for fame and glory but don't have a thing. > Also the specs the "author" mentions are too low. A P2-266 is way too > slow to emulate a SH-4, which has four times the FP performance! Uh... the SH-4 has 4 times the P2-266? I highly doubt that. > ROMs. According to him the DC reads CDs in *reverse* and he claims to > have written a CD-ROM driver which operates the same way. Even if the > DC should work this way I'm really not sure if it would be possible to > do such tricks with a normal CD-ROM drive! He's totally full of shit. The 1GB CDROMs aren't readable with conventional drives - they don't even use the same optical pickup! As far as spinning the drive backwards, CDROM drives have a "start" and "stop" - no directional junk. On a slightly differnet topic, I'm trying to figure out where to devote my time. I've had a few free days that I've done nothing more than sit and stare at the screen and look at web pages, without any work being done. So if any of you could give me some words of encouragement toward completing the recompiler, that would surely be appreciated. I just feel like it'll go unappreciated. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 25 14:57:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA33154 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:57:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006b01bf96ad$4808ad20$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:54:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > People called Retrocade a fake, too. There's two sides of it - those who > spend all their time denouncing the existence of an emulator they'd rather > see NOT exist and the opposite end of people claiming to have something > everyone want for fame and glory but don't have a thing. Of course. We've always played "Spot the fake", it's just that sometimes it's really easy (like in this case) and sometimes not. All you need to have is a little common sense - or a brain. Bleem could have been real - a P166 *is* powerful enough to emulate what is essentially a 386-33MHz machine. Things like Dreamcast emulators aren't possible at the moment, not least because of the special format CD-ROMs that it uses. > > Also the specs the "author" mentions are too low. A P2-266 is way too > > slow to emulate a SH-4, which has four times the FP performance! > > Uh... the SH-4 has 4 times the P2-266? I highly doubt that. The specs are about double the FPU, I believe. A 450MHz CPU is still faster. I'm not sure about the relative speeds of the PS2 CPU, though... > > ROMs. According to him the DC reads CDs in *reverse* and he claims to > > have written a CD-ROM driver which operates the same way. Even if the > > DC should work this way I'm really not sure if it would be possible to > > do such tricks with a normal CD-ROM drive! > > He's totally full of shit. The 1GB CDROMs aren't readable with > conventional drives - they don't even use the same optical pickup! As far > as spinning the drive backwards, CDROM drives have a "start" and "stop" - > no directional junk. Yes, agreed. This is a completely obvious fake. I suppose it's possible to fake the drive spinning backwards (you read one byte, wait for the CD to spin around again and read the previous byte ad infinitum), but I think it would be quite hard to do. But, as Neil said, different optical pickup. If it requires a different laser frequency to read, there's not a whole lot you can do. > On a slightly differnet topic, I'm trying to figure out where to devote my > time. I've had a few free days that I've done nothing more than sit and > stare at the screen and look at web pages, without any work being done. You really should give up on your porn habits, you know... ;) > So if any of you could give me some words of encouragement toward > completing the recompiler, that would surely be appreciated. I just feel > like it'll go unappreciated. Really, I'd really like to see this. I'm about to start writing (or co-writing, in fact) a dynamic compiler for a 68k CPU. It could be useful to see the techniques that you come up with. By the same token, if I can invent anything useful, then I'm willing to share that with you. Whether it becomes freely available to the public, I don't know, but I suppose it could be nice for people to look at. Whatever, it's certainly not up to just me to decide. But yes, I'd really like to see this a lot. That or a new version of Retrocade that supports things like Bubble Bobble. ;) Whatever, sounds like you need a break. It sounds like you're always busy! I mean... look at all the stuff you've done! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 25 19:49:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA33747 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 19:49:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 05:34:14 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >People called Retrocade a fake, too. I must have missed that... >Uh... the SH-4 has 4 times the P2-266? I highly doubt that. Well, the integer performance isn't that high for the 200MHz SH-4 (only about 360 MIPS) but the peak FP performance is quite cool when the 128- bit vector FP operations are used: 1.4 GFLOPS! >He's totally full of shit. The 1GB CDROMs aren't readable with >conventional drives - they don't even use the same optical pickup! I only knew that the format is by Yamaha and totally different to the Philips/Sony stuff. >As far >as spinning the drive backwards, CDROM drives have a "start" and "stop" - >no directional junk. That's what I thought too, but I don't know much about CD-ROM drives after all. >On a slightly differnet topic, I'm trying to figure out where to devote my >time. I've had a few free days that I've done nothing more than sit and >stare at the screen and look at web pages, without any work being done. Sounds a bit like me... >So if any of you could give me some words of encouragement toward >completing the recompiler, that would surely be appreciated. I just feel >like it'll go unappreciated. I'm sorry if you get that feeling! Your work is much appreciated, especially since you are the only one of us who does some serious work on dynarec matters. Compared to you I did almost nothing so far. Having taken a look at the dynarec of 1964 just a few days ago I can say that I'm just so fed up with these quick and dirty hacks that I really love to see your dynarec in a more complete shape. I just got the opinion that you are pretty busy at the moment and didn't want to hurry you, but I'm still longing for the when it'll finally run ;-) If you need more encouragement then tell me ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Mar 25 19:49:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA33754 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 19:49:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 05:49:20 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Of course. We've always played "Spot the fake", it's just that sometimes >it's really easy (like in this case) and sometimes not. All you need to have >is a little common sense - or a brain. But sometimes you lack the knowledge about the machine to decide if it's possible or not and in some cases the programmers tweak the emulator till it runs something, just take UltraHLE. >Bleem could have been real - a P166 >*is* powerful enough to emulate what is essentially a 386-33MHz machine. Erm, first of all this depends on the software. Any office product running on my old Atari ST is likely to outperform similar software on a 386. And secondly, a 386 isn't normally equipped with SPU, MDEC, GTE, and GPU which most people forget about the PSX. >Things like Dreamcast emulators aren't possible at the moment, not least >because of the special format CD-ROMs that it uses. Indeed. >The specs are about double the FPU, I believe. A 450MHz CPU is still faster. Wait for SH-5: 700 MIPS and 2.8 GFLOPS with just 1000mW! And it can perform 4 MACs per cycle! >I'm not sure about the relative speeds of the PS2 CPU, though... The integer performance of the EmotionEngine is crap but it has 10 (in words ten) parallel FPUs! >Yes, agreed. This is a completely obvious fake. But that guy doesn't seem to notice that nobody doesn't fall in for it. >I suppose it's possible to fake the drive spinning backwards (you read one >byte, wait for the CD to spin around again and read the previous byte ad >infinitum), but I think it would be quite hard to do. I thought about that too but it will be very slow. >But, as Neil said, >different optical pickup. If it requires a different laser frequency to >read, there's not a whole lot you can do. Well, you could rip the drive from a DC try to fit it into a PC and write a driver for it, but then you could also play the games directly on the DC ;-) >You really should give up on your porn habits, you know... ;) How do you know what he is watching? ;-) >Really, I'd really like to see this. I'm about to start writing (or >co-writing, in fact) a dynamic compiler for a 68k CPU. It could be useful to >see the techniques that you come up with. By the same token, if I can invent >anything useful, then I'm willing to share that with you. Whether it becomes >freely available to the public, I don't know, but I suppose it could be nice >for people to look at. Whatever, it's certainly not up to just me to decide. Sounds interesting, keep us informed! >But yes, I'd really like to see this a lot. That or a new version of >Retrocade that supports things like Bubble Bobble. ;) Hurry up Neil, hurry up! ;-) >Whatever, sounds like you need a break. It sounds like you're always busy! I >mean... look at all the stuff you've done! Yeah, if you should need a break just take it. It's your spare time and you should decide what you want to do with it! But if you want to continue your project then tell us how we can support you! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 26 22:32:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA37268 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:32:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DEFF9F.14D45424@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:28:47 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Uh... the SH-4 has 4 times the P2-266? I highly doubt that. > > Well, the integer performance isn't that high for the 200MHz SH-4 (only > about 360 MIPS) but the peak FP performance is quite cool when the 128- > bit vector FP operations are used: 1.4 GFLOPS! Pretty impressive. But that's theoretical figures. I'd like know exactly how much it actually DOES get to. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 26 22:40:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA37289 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:40:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF0188.AC97EF33@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:36:56 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > But sometimes you lack the knowledge about the machine to decide if > it's possible or not and in some cases the programmers tweak the > emulator till it runs something, just take UltraHLE. That's a case in point. In real terms it should be very difficult to emulate a N64 on a PII-450. However, they haven't gone for proper emulation (other than the CPU), they're using a new technique - HLE. And because of the way it was announced, THIS emulator wasn't seen as being a fake... :) > >Bleem could have been real - a P166 > >*is* powerful enough to emulate what is essentially a 386-33MHz > machine. > > Erm, first of all this depends on the software. Any office product > running on my old Atari ST is likely to outperform similar software on > a 386. That's because they optimised for your ST. > And secondly, a 386 isn't normally equipped with SPU, MDEC, GTE, and > GPU which most people forget about the PSX. Maybe, but the difficult part in this case is the CPU. It's not so hard to emulate something when something in your system does a very similar job - which is the case with the PC and emulating the PSX. > Wait for SH-5: > 700 MIPS and 2.8 GFLOPS with just 1000mW! And it can perform 4 MACs per > cycle! Impressive, but we'll see what Intel and AMD have to offer at that time. > >I'm not sure about the relative speeds of the PS2 CPU, though... > > The integer performance of the EmotionEngine is crap but it has 10 (in > words ten) parallel FPUs! Now all they need to do is to optimise (or have a good C optimiser) that actually uses those 10 FPUs... > >I suppose it's possible to fake the drive spinning backwards (you read > one > >byte, wait for the CD to spin around again and read the previous byte > ad > >infinitum), but I think it would be quite hard to do. > > I thought about that too but it will be very slow. Not just that, but very hard to sync as well... > >But, as Neil said, > >different optical pickup. If it requires a different laser frequency > to > >read, there's not a whole lot you can do. > > Well, you could rip the drive from a DC try to fit it into a PC and > write a driver for it, but then you could also play the games directly > on the DC ;-) Yes, exactly. :) > >You really should give up on your porn habits, you know... ;) > > How do you know what he is watching? ;-) I installed my copy of "Microsoft(tm) Porn Habit Watcher" on his computer via a special backdoor in the mailing list. ;) > Sounds interesting, keep us informed! And we'll compare it to StarScream. With a bit of luck, it may even beat it in speed. ;) > >But yes, I'd really like to see this a lot. That or a new version of > >Retrocade that supports things like Bubble Bobble. ;) > > Hurry up Neil, hurry up! ;-) Extend! Extend! Ex... ooh. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 26 23:02:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA37363 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:02:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: VICTOR MOYA DEL BARRIO Message-Id: <200003270700.JAA26001@alabi.fib.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 26, 0 05:49:20 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:00:05 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Really, I'd really like to see this. I'm about to start writing (or > >co-writing, in fact) a dynamic compiler for a 68k CPU. It could be > useful to > >see the techniques that you come up with. By the same token, if I can > invent > >anything useful, then I'm willing to share that with you. Whether it > becomes > >freely available to the public, I don't know, but I suppose it could > be nice > >for people to look at. Whatever, it's certainly not up to just me to > decide. > > Sounds interesting, keep us informed! > Yes, it would be interesting. I have to do the same for my project but I have no time actually. BTW, what happened this weekend? The university server was down ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 26 23:02:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA37371 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:02:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003270628.IAA01274@florensa.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation In-Reply-To: <38DB64ED.E3832ECF@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 24, 2000 01:51:57 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:28:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by florensa.ac.upc.es id IAA01274 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id XAA37368 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > I had heard that the machine was similar to PSX hardware. If so then the > > > speed is terrible. If it isn't, then the speed is acceptable... > > > > Perhaps some research should be done on this topic. > > On the machine? Certainly. On the authors? I think they want to remain > anonymous, so we can't ask them anything! > Oh well, then only on the machine. > > > I like all types of games including these RPGs. But my heart is with > > > platform games I think. My all-time favourite game is Bubble Bobble. :) > > > > > > > Bubble Bobble is a really nice game :) I like it too. I usually don´t like plataform > > games but there are someones that are really fun as Bubble Bobble. Lately I have been > > playing a bit Metal Slug, what a game! ;). But the best games for me are Japanese > > RPGs and the best game company is SquareSoft. But I don´t know much Japanese so I > > can´t really play them :( By the way what's your favorite game company. I vote for > > Konami and SquareSoft, but this last has very few games others than RPGs. > > Erm... I can't remember their name! My god... anyway, they wrote all those > cutsey games like Bubble Bobble, Rainbow Islands and so on... > Do you mean Taito? It's also a great company but I don't know what games they are actually doing. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 26 23:28:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA37404 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:28:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF0CD7.50B0BFDF@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:25:11 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <200003270700.JAA26001@alabi.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Sounds interesting, keep us informed! > > > Yes, it would be interesting. I have to do the same for my project but I have no time actually. I don't have the time except at weekends, but then I have plenty - unless I decide to go travelling. This weekend I accomplished hardly anything, but that'll be due to the fact that I found out a member of my family could die soon unless he's lucky. It's hardly great news - which is why I don't feel like doing the SI tutorial today. > BTW, what happened this weekend? The university server was down ... You've replied to one, so you may have missed 4 other messages. Talking about emu fakes, in fact... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Mar 26 23:45:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA37430 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003270747.JAA02481@florensa.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38DF0188.AC97EF33@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 27, 2000 08:36:56 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:47:40 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > That's a case in point. In real terms it should be very difficult to > emulate a N64 on a PII-450. However, they haven't gone for proper emulation > (other than the CPU), they're using a new technique - HLE. And because of > the way it was announced, THIS emulator wasn't seen as being a fake... :) > What do HLE means? > > Wait for SH-5: > > 700 MIPS and 2.8 GFLOPS with just 1000mW! And it can perform 4 MACs per > > cycle! > > Impressive, but we'll see what Intel and AMD have to offer at that time. Do you know new IA-64? I readed something this weekend. > > > >I'm not sure about the relative speeds of the PS2 CPU, though... > > > > The integer performance of the EmotionEngine is crap but it has 10 (in > > words ten) parallel FPUs! > > Now all they need to do is to optimise (or have a good C optimiser) that > actually uses those 10 FPUs... > They must use it for 3D graphics. When PCs come with the new and powerful GPUs perhaps could be emulated. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 00:02:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA37508 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF1485.CCA06EB2@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:57:57 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <200003270747.JAA02481@florensa.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > What do HLE means? High Level Emulation. It means that instead of emulating something at hardware level, you take input and give the output you'd expect to find. It means that it'll work - it just won't be particularly compatible. That's why so many patches are needed for UltraHLE - or for Nemu64 now... > > Impressive, but we'll see what Intel and AMD have to offer at that time. > Do you know new IA-64? I readed something this weekend. Indeed I do. It looks interesting. I'm also wondering whether we'll get to the point where we can't keep backwards compatibility with the x86 instruction set. I like it, but there are limitations (there are NOT enough registers!) to keeping it. If we can do something good with dynarec on this group, maybe in the future it could be worth looking at a PC emulator - like Bochs, but faster. > > Now all they need to do is to optimise (or have a good C optimiser) that > > actually uses those 10 FPUs... > > > They must use it for 3D graphics. When PCs come with the new and powerful GPUs > perhaps could be emulated. We already have powerful GPUs, it's just that they never use them to 100% because they're too limited by fillrate. You mean even MORE powerful GPUs? Yes, you're right. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 00:13:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA37533 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003270815.KAA03225@florensa.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 25, 2000 02:38:23 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:15:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > On a slightly differnet topic, I'm trying to figure out where to devote my > time. I've had a few free days that I've done nothing more than sit and > stare at the screen and look at web pages, without any work being done. > > So if any of you could give me some words of encouragement toward > completing the recompiler, that would surely be appreciated. I just feel > like it'll go unappreciated. > You're recompiler is the best I have seen (oh well I haven't seen so many ;). But being serious, I'm very interested on see how your recompiler is when finished. I take a look at it and the general structure seems complet but you still need to do all the opcodes, the real hard work :) So people (oh well, myself) is interested in your see your recompiler completed. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 00:21:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA37550 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:21:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003270823.KAA03478@florensa.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38DF1485.CCA06EB2@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 27, 2000 09:57:57 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:23:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Impressive, but we'll see what Intel and AMD have to offer at that time. > > Do you know new IA-64? I readed something this weekend. > > Indeed I do. It looks interesting. I'm also wondering whether we'll get to > the point where we can't keep backwards compatibility with the x86 > instruction set. I like it, but there are limitations (there are NOT enough > registers!) to keeping it. If we can do something good with dynarec on this > group, maybe in the future it could be worth looking at a PC emulator - > like Bochs, but faster. > What I don't know still is how IA-64 keeps backwards compatibility with IA-32, perhaps I have missed it but I haven't seen anything in Intel documentation. They just say it's compatible, but I haven't see how. A PC emulator! So I can now emulate my first computer! What a dream! :)) As I saied later I started with a PC in computer world so it's the system I like most, like other people likes MSX or Spectrum. Emulate a PC (x86) is something really interesting, but the problem will be what emulation level perfom: an 8086 or a Pentium-II, a Pentium-II would be really hard to emulate it's bigger, I think, that all other CPUs actually emulated. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 00:39:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA37602 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF1D1B.29AE15F@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:34:35 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <200003270823.KAA03478@florensa.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > What I don't know still is how IA-64 keeps backwards compatibility with IA-32, > perhaps I have missed it but I haven't seen anything in Intel documentation. > They just say it's compatible, but I haven't see how. I'm not sure either... > A PC emulator! So I can now emulate my first computer! What a dream! :)) > As I saied later I started with a PC in computer world so it's the system I like > most, like other people likes MSX or Spectrum. With me it's the CPC, but in fact I don't emulate this too often. Perhaps I will someday. Arcade emulation just holds more interest to me, in fact. > Emulate a PC (x86) is something really interesting, but the problem will be what > emulation level perfom: an 8086 or a Pentium-II, a Pentium-II would be really > hard to emulate it's bigger, I think, that all other CPUs actually emulated. What would be interesting is emulating both 3DNow! and SIMD in the one CPU core. That could be funny. :) Forget the CPU - the graphics hardware would be more difficult to emulate. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 00:51:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA37625 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:51:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003270853.KAA04022@florensa.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38DF1D1B.29AE15F@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 27, 2000 10:34:35 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:53:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > With me it's the CPC, but in fact I don't emulate this too often. Perhaps I > will someday. Arcade emulation just holds more interest to me, in fact. > Oh, I think I'm more interested in console emulation like MegaDrive or Snes. I hope someday I will have the time to do a MegaCD emulator. > > Emulate a PC (x86) is something really interesting, but the problem will be what > > emulation level perfom: an 8086 or a Pentium-II, a Pentium-II would be really > > hard to emulate it's bigger, I think, that all other CPUs actually emulated. > > What would be interesting is emulating both 3DNow! and SIMD in the one CPU > core. That could be funny. :) > Oh, the same work made twice. You will have to use some kind of flags to use one or other. > Forget the CPU - the graphics hardware would be more difficult to emulate. > :) Do you mean the actual graphic hardware or the old one? The old one is hard because there isn't a real standard (think in this old SVGA cards) and the actual graphics because they aren't so standard (unless you use APIs) and they are pretty complex cards. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 01:23:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA37698 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:23:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF27AD.327F6B38@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:19:41 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <200003270853.KAA04022@florensa.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Oh, I think I'm more interested in console emulation like MegaDrive or Snes. I > hope someday I will have the time to do a MegaCD emulator. I'm interested in *all* emulation, except the modern day stuff. I don't own a PSX or N64 and so emulating them doesn't interest me. But I have either owned or played with most old computers and consoles so I'm more interested by them. Emulating the MegaCD is not something I'd attempt. There were only about 5 games (okay, more like 20) for it! :o > > What would be interesting is emulating both 3DNow! and SIMD in the one CPU > > core. That could be funny. :) > > > Oh, the same work made twice. You will have to use some kind of flags to use > one or other. If you emulate the instruction set, no. But you WOULD need to invent some way of making the emulated CPU returning the correct CPUID. An option, maybe? > Do you mean the actual graphic hardware or the old one? The old one is hard > because there isn't a real standard (think in this old SVGA cards) and the > actual graphics because they aren't so standard (unless you use APIs) and they > are pretty complex cards. Yes, this is my point. And that's why it would be difficult. You'd have to choose one card to emulate and hope that it was the most compatible... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 01:39:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA37739 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:39:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003270941.LAA04688@florensa.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38DF27AD.327F6B38@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 27, 2000 11:19:41 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:41:39 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Emulating the MegaCD is not something I'd attempt. There were only about 5 > games (okay, more like 20) for it! :o > But has a very interesting ones for me:) > > > What would be interesting is emulating both 3DNow! and SIMD in the one CPU > > > core. That could be funny. :) > > > > > Oh, the same work made twice. You will have to use some kind of flags to use > > one or other. > > If you emulate the instruction set, no. But you WOULD need to invent some > way of making the emulated CPU returning the correct CPUID. An option, > maybe? > I don't think this will be a problem, you will be emulating an AMD or emulating an INTEL. When you start the emulator you decide which CPU are you using. You only have to load properly the CPUID register and emulate the properly instruction set. > > Do you mean the actual graphic hardware or the old one? The old one is hard > > because there isn't a real standard (think in this old SVGA cards) and the > > actual graphics because they aren't so standard (unless you use APIs) and they > > are pretty complex cards. > > Yes, this is my point. And that's why it would be difficult. You'd have to > choose one card to emulate and hope that it was the most compatible... > Or hope it's the most supported by hardware. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 01:49:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA37766 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:49:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:49:54 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <006b01bf96ad$4808ad20$0a909090@okay> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > it's really easy (like in this case) and sometimes not. All you need to have > is a little common sense - or a brain. Bleem could have been real - a P166 > *is* powerful enough to emulate what is essentially a 386-33MHz machine. It's more like a 486/33 with a 3dfx board. But it's amazing to see how a 486/33like machine is knocking an N64 into the ground consistently... > > time. I've had a few free days that I've done nothing more than sit and > > stare at the screen and look at web pages, without any work being done. > You really should give up on your porn habits, you know... ;) God... I guess I'll have to start a porn habit first! > > So if any of you could give me some words of encouragement toward > > completing the recompiler, that would surely be appreciated. I just feel > > like it'll go unappreciated. > Really, I'd really like to see this. I'm about to start writing (or > co-writing, in fact) a dynamic compiler for a 68k CPU. It could be useful to You and I should probably work together on this one. I already have a lot of the pieces of the puzzle. > Whatever, sounds like you need a break. It sounds like you're always busy! I > mean... look at all the stuff you've done! What I'd really like to do is hit the reset button on *EVERYTHING* I'm doing. I'm half way through contracting work and that's taking up all my time, and I barely have enough to keep afloat. But I did look at the recompiler tonight a bit. I stopped at the conditional jump instructions because there are three possible jump code scenarios: * Jump to an address you already know (just create a jump instruction to that address) * Jump to an address that is in the currently recompiled block (which you WILL know the address when the block is finished) * Jump to an address that you have no idea what it is Option #1 and #3 are covered. #2 Isn't, which is really just a variant of option 1. My brain is fried for tonight. More as I know it! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 02:09:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA37944 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 02:09:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF3213.D640C089@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:04:03 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > It's more like a 486/33 with a 3dfx board. But it's amazing to see how a > 486/33like machine is knocking an N64 into the ground consistently... Okay, I'll grant you 486/33. But not a 3Dfx board. God, the thing in the PSX isn't even as powerful as a ViRGE. It can't Z-buffer, it has no perspective correction and it sucks in general. :) > > You really should give up on your porn habits, you know... ;) > > God... I guess I'll have to start a porn habit first! A programmer without one? What a novelty! ;) In fact, this is something I live quite happily without. Whether that's due more to my disinterest or the fact that I have to pay for the phone bill, I'm not quite sure... :) > > Really, I'd really like to see this. I'm about to start writing (or > > co-writing, in fact) a dynamic compiler for a 68k CPU. It could be useful to > > You and I should probably work together on this one. I already have a lot > of the pieces of the puzzle. Really? I'd be very interested in this. I'll check with the other guy and if he has no problems then we can maybe make a start on it in a few weeks (we're currently designing the framework for the emulator at the moment, doing the graphics routines etc)? > > Whatever, sounds like you need a break. It sounds like you're always busy! I > > mean... look at all the stuff you've done! > > What I'd really like to do is hit the reset button on *EVERYTHING* I'm > doing. I'm half way through contracting work and that's taking up all my > time, and I barely have enough to keep afloat. Ah, yuk. I've done a little contract work before (only 2 months or so). Pay is good, but the workload is high. I feel your pain! > But I did look at the recompiler tonight a bit. I stopped at the > conditional jump instructions because there are three possible jump code > scenarios: > > * Jump to an address you already know (just create a jump instruction to > that address) > > * Jump to an address that is in the currently recompiled block (which you > WILL know the address when the block is finished) > > * Jump to an address that you have no idea what it is > > Option #1 and #3 are covered. #2 Isn't, which is really just a variant of > option 1. My brain is fried for tonight. More as I know it! #2 will be a little more difficult to cover, I'd have thought. Ah well... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 05:14:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA38335 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:14:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:32:29 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Wait for SH-5: >> 700 MIPS and 2.8 GFLOPS with just 1000mW! And it can perform 4 MACs per >> cycle! >Impressive, but we'll see what Intel and AMD have to offer at that time. Well, they not only doubled the clock speed, but added a 32-bit instruction format (called SHmedia) to the 16-bit instruction format (now called SHcompact), which made it possible to extend the register set from only 16 to 64 registers (the GPRs now with 64-bit) and also to add SIMD instructions. This surely makes the SH-5 one of the most powerful embedded processors I know. >> The integer performance of the EmotionEngine is crap but it has 10 (in >> words ten) parallel FPUs! >Now all they need to do is to optimise (or have a good C optimiser) that >actually uses those 10 FPUs... Yeah, can be quite hard. >> Sounds interesting, keep us informed! >And we'll compare it to StarScream. With a bit of luck, it may even beat it >in speed. ;) Well, if you didn't beat it than the whole project would be senseless... >Extend! Extend! Ex... ooh. :) Too late! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 05:14:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA38344 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:14:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:35:09 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >BTW, what happened this weekend? The university server was down ... Do you mean on this list or in general? Well, eg. we had the Oscar night, or in my case the Oscar morning from 2 AM to 7:30 AM... BTW, Spain got the Oscar for the best foreign film. More details here: http://www.oscar.com/oscarnight.html Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 05:14:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA38354 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:14:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:36:34 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I don't have the time except at weekends, but then I have plenty - unless I >decide to go travelling. This weekend I accomplished hardly anything, but >that'll be due to the fact that I found out a member of my family could die >soon unless he's lucky. That's bad news indeed. I'm sorry for you! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 05:14:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA38362 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:14:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:50:09 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >What do HLE means? High Level Emulation: you spare some hardware emulation by trapping system calls and emulating these directly. In the case of UltraHLE the calls to Nintendo's game library are trapped. >Do you know new IA-64? I readed something this weekend. A real monster: * 128 general purpose registers with 64 bit * 128 FP registers with 82 bit * 64 predicate registers with 1 bit used in the following way: pT, pF = compare(a < b) /* if */ if (pT) c = c + 1 /* then */ if (pF) c = c * d /* else */ This means most compare instructions set two of the predicate registers, the first to the result of the compare and the second one to the complementary value. Since almost all instructions include an encoded predication register very many instructions can be executed conditionally. Since predication register 0 is always one (1) instructions having this register encoded are always executed. * 8 branch registers for branch target calculation * a bunch of special application registers (used for kernel comunication eg.), actually up to 128 but only some are used at the moment. * 128-bit VLIW (very long instruction word) with 3 41-bit instruction slots and 5-bit template information. * Have I already mentioned that it's a monster? >They must use it for 3D graphics. When PCs come with the new and powerful GPUs >perhaps could be emulated. I think it has the GraphicsSynthesizer for 3D graphics... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 05:15:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA38377 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:01:18 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >What I don't know still is how IA-64 keeps backwards compatibility with IA-32, >perhaps I have missed it but I haven't seen anything in Intel documentation. >They just say it's compatible, but I haven't see how. The processor has two hardware modes: IA-32 and IA-64. An idea, which was probably inventend by ARM (now also used by MIPS and SuperH) to switch between their ARM and Thumb instruction sets is utilized by Itanium. Special jump instructions are used to jump between blocks of different modes, x86 therefore got a new the new instruction "jmpe" (jump and exchange?) and the IA-64 equivalent is "bra.ia". Interrupts are only handled by IA-64 which is why the operating system must support x86 programs to be really able to run these. In IA-32 mode some of the GPRs and FPRs (8 to 31) are used to emulate the x86 register, for EFLAG the application register 24 is reserved. That's what I could extract from Intel's "IA-64 Application Developer's Architecture Guide, Rev. 1.0". Hope that helps ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 05:15:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA38386 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:04:41 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> What would be interesting is emulating both 3DNow! and SIMD in the one CPU >> core. That could be funny. :) >Oh, the same work made twice. You will have to use some kind of flags to use >one or other. Not exactly, MMX is integer based and 3DNow! is FP based. The FP SIMD extension made for the P3 is called ISSE (Internet Streaming SIMD Extension). I wonder what the Internet has to do with it? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 05:36:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA38450 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:36:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF6294.EAA06EDB@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:31:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Not exactly, MMX is integer based and 3DNow! is FP based. The FP SIMD > extension made for the P3 is called ISSE (Internet Streaming SIMD > Extension). I wonder what the Internet has to do with it? That's why I didn't mention MMX - just 3DNow! and SIMD which are both instruction sets that work with FP operations. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 05:39:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA38459 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:39:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF636E.75C6A2CA@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:34:38 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > That's bad news indeed. I'm sorry for you! Thanks. You've got to love Doctors, though. My uncle has been ill for about one and a half years now. They've now identified his illness as a disease which needs to be identified as early as possible. If they're too late, he could die. If they're almost too late, it will more than likely turn into cancer. Whatever, he'll be on medicine for the rest of his life now. But I'm not a medical student, I don't know what the situtation is with this illness. In a way, I'm feeling sorry more for his children than him. Anyway, I didn't feel like doing the SI tutorial because of that. Still, can't be helped. Have to wait and see... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 06:24:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA38518 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:10:46 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >That's why I didn't mention MMX - just 3DNow! and SIMD which are both >instruction sets that work with FP operations. I got the opinion that some firms use SIMD for integer and the term vector for FP operations, although in theory both terms are synonymous. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 06:45:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA38569 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF72F5.FED5F33E@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:40:53 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >That's why I didn't mention MMX - just 3DNow! and SIMD which are both > >instruction sets that work with FP operations. > > I got the opinion that some firms use SIMD for integer and the term > vector for FP operations, although in theory both terms are synonymous. I have the impression that a lot of SIMD instructions are the same as 3DNow! instructions. I haven't looked - I don't have a processor that does either. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 07:37:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38703 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:30:10 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I have the impression that a lot of SIMD instructions are the same as >3DNow! instructions. I haven't looked - I don't have a processor that does >either. :) I don't know much about 3DNow! but AMD had to include MMX compatabilty and there are surely some standard operations you can do so they might just have chosen these for their own 3DNow! as well. The implementational difference between 3DNow! and MMX is that AMD uses the same registers for FP, MMX, and 3DNow! and Intel has separate register sets for FP, MMX, and ISSE. On the outside MMX and FP registers seem to be identical because that way you don't have to change the operating system to save these registers on a task switch. The consequence is that ISSE is almost useless when you don't have an OS which supports saving of these registers as well. There might be a further difference between SIMD and vector FP operations. SIMD normally works is saturation mode, ie. if you normally would get a carry the result is the highest possible value instead. I'm not sure if this makes much sense for FP operations... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 07:53:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38736 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF82F2.EDB5D51E@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:49:06 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I have the impression that a lot of SIMD instructions are the same as > >3DNow! instructions. I haven't looked - I don't have a processor that > does > >either. :) > > I don't know much about 3DNow! but AMD had to include MMX compatabilty > and there are surely some standard operations you can do so they might > just have chosen these for their own 3DNow! as well. AMD have had MMX since the K6. That one I know - because I had one. :) > The implementational difference between 3DNow! and MMX is that AMD uses > the same registers for FP, MMX, and 3DNow! and Intel has separate > register sets for FP, MMX, and ISSE. On the outside MMX and FP > registers seem to be identical because that way you don't have to > change the operating system to save these registers on a task switch. > The consequence is that ISSE is almost useless when you don't have an > OS which supports saving of these registers as well. I'm not entirely sure what the OS has to do with it... Oh, I've just re-read what you wrote and now I see. Yes, okay, I'll give you that. :) > There might be a further difference between SIMD and vector FP > operations. SIMD normally works is saturation mode, ie. if you normally > would get a carry the result is the highest possible value instead. I'm > not sure if this makes much sense for FP operations... That could get confusing if you didn't know that. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 08:23:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38811 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:23:39 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >AMD have had MMX since the K6. That one I know - because I had one. :) My AMD is too old to have MMX... >I'm not entirely sure what the OS has to do with it... Oh, I've just >re-read what you wrote and now I see. Yes, okay, I'll give you that. :) I don't know if there already as an OS that saves the ISSE registers, maybe Win2000 but certainly not Win98. >That could get confusing if you didn't know that. :) Most processors provide a mode switch for saturation or wrap-around, but for most multi-media data saturation is more suitable since you don't want white to turn into black when you add 1 ;-) But as I said I'm really not sure if saturation can also be used for FP data. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 08:44:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38901 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:44:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF8F3D.1645C5C7@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:41:33 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >AMD have had MMX since the K6. That one I know - because I had one. :) > > My AMD is too old to have MMX... So it's a K5 or lower then? > >I'm not entirely sure what the OS has to do with it... Oh, I've just > >re-read what you wrote and now I see. Yes, okay, I'll give you that. > :) > > I don't know if there already as an OS that saves the ISSE registers, > maybe Win2000 but certainly not Win98. Linux, maybe? I'm pretty sure it supports IA-32 so far... > >That could get confusing if you didn't know that. :) > > Most processors provide a mode switch for saturation or wrap-around, > but for most multi-media data saturation is more suitable since you > don't want white to turn into black when you add 1 ;-) Hey, it's a feature, not a bug! ;) > But as I said I'm really not sure if saturation can also be used for FP > data. I'd hope not. Else lots of programs could get confused. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 08:47:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38934 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:47:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38DF8FAE.92BF3E06@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:43:26 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation References: <200003270628.IAA01274@florensa.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > On the machine? Certainly. On the authors? I think they want to remain > > anonymous, so we can't ask them anything! > > > Oh well, then only on the machine. I'm pretty sure it's the PSEmu guys, though. I'd be surprised if it wasn't. But I don't actually care if it is or isn't, to be honest. :) > > Erm... I can't remember their name! My god... anyway, they wrote all those > > cutsey games like Bubble Bobble, Rainbow Islands and so on... > > > Do you mean Taito? It's also a great company but I don't know what games they are actually doing. I do mean Taito, yes. And they're probably doing Puzzle Bobble 2000 right now... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 09:23:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA39097 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:23:07 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > The implementational difference between 3DNow! and MMX is that AMD uses > the same registers for FP, MMX, and 3DNow! and Intel has separate > register sets for FP, MMX, and ISSE. On the outside MMX and FP No, no.. FP/MMX Use the same (FP) registers. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 09:29:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA39136 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:29:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:29:18 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38DF3213.D640C089@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > In fact, this is something I live quite happily without. Whether that's due > more to my disinterest or the fact that I have to pay for the phone bill, > I'm not quite sure... :) Hey, I'm all for porn! It's just a matter of time, that's all! > > You and I should probably work together on this one. I already have a lot > > of the pieces of the puzzle. > Really? I'd be very interested in this. I'll check with the other guy and > if he has no problems then we can maybe make a start on it in a few weeks > (we're currently designing the framework for the emulator at the moment, > doing the graphics routines etc)? I had planned on doing my own 68K core, too, but my thinking is that we can create a 68K core that would "plug in" directly to this recompiler "architecture" I'm working on. > > But I did look at the recompiler tonight a bit. I stopped at the > > conditional jump instructions because there are three possible jump code > > scenarios: > > > > * Jump to an address you already know (just create a jump instruction to > > that address) > > > > * Jump to an address that is in the currently recompiled block (which you > > WILL know the address when the block is finished) > > > > * Jump to an address that you have no idea what it is > > > > Option #1 and #3 are covered. #2 Isn't, which is really just a variant of > > option 1. My brain is fried for tonight. More as I know it! > #2 will be a little more difficult to cover, I'd have thought. Ah well... Actually, #2 is already handled by the emitter. I just point it to an sOp structure rather than an actual address or virtual address and it takes care of the rest. Last night I just couldn't remember how to do it! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 09:53:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA39220 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:44:09 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No, no.. FP/MMX Use the same (FP) registers. According to my information in the implementation these two are different: 8 FP registers with 80-bit and 8 MMX registers with 64-bit. But for the architecture they are handled just like FP registers to save and restore these with FSAVE and FRSTOR. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 09:53:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA39229 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:53:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:46:40 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >So it's a K5 or lower then? AMD 5x86. >Linux, maybe? I'm pretty sure it supports IA-32 so far... I don't know much about Linux kernels... >Hey, it's a feature, not a bug! ;) That's precise enough! ;-) >I'd hope not. Else lots of programs could get confused. :)) Are you talking about AI programs? ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 09:53:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA39235 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:53:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:53:40 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I had planned on doing my own 68K core, too, but my thinking is that we >can create a 68K core that would "plug in" directly to this recompiler >"architecture" I'm working on. According to which systems should be supported some changes like a paged TransMap would be necessary, but it certainly would be a much better starting point than trying to find another method and just end up with yet another hacked approach. >Actually, #2 is already handled by the emitter. I just point it to an sOp >structure rather than an actual address or virtual address and it takes >care of the rest. Last night I just couldn't remember how to do it! Since I also should know that you have such an entry in your opcode structure you're not alone in not remembering it... BTW, I hope you could convince you that your work is really appreciated! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 10:00:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA39270 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:00:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:00:46 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >No, no.. FP/MMX Use the same (FP) registers. > According to my information in the implementation these two are > different: 8 FP registers with 80-bit and 8 MMX registers with 64-bit. > But for the architecture they are handled just like FP registers to > save and restore these with FSAVE and FRSTOR. Well, no, actually. That was the big push when they were released. You couldn't do FP when you were doing MMX and vice versa. When I talked to the guys in IAL, they were concerned that existing operating systems wouldn't save an alternate set of registers off when switching contexts, so the easiest thing to do to retain compatability was to use the general FP regs. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 10:18:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA39353 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:18:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:18:46 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Well, no, actually. That was the big push when they were released. You >couldn't do FP when you were doing MMX and vice versa. It seems that the info in my book is too old. I'll have a look at the official papers by Intel then. But I also heard that FP and MMX instructions couldn't be used at the same time so it's likely that you're right. >When I talked to >the guys in IAL, they were concerned that existing operating systems >wouldn't save an alternate set of registers off when switching contexts, Now they have exactly that problem with the ISSE registers... >so the easiest thing to do to retain compatability was to use the general >FP regs. That's what MIPS does with MDMX and probably also most other procesors. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 10:31:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA39407 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:31:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:31:35 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Well, no, actually. That was the big push when they were released. You > >couldn't do FP when you were doing MMX and vice versa. > It seems that the info in my book is too old. I'll have a look at the > official papers by Intel then. But I also heard that FP and MMX > instructions couldn't be used at the same time so it's likely that > you're right. Correct. Oh, if only they were separate! According to the Intel Architecture Software Developer's Manual (10-2): "The MMX state consists of eight 64 bit registers (MM0-MM7). These registers are aliased to the 64 bit mantissas (bits 0-63) of floating point registers R0 through R7. Note that the MMX registers are mapped to the physical locations of the floating point registers (R0 through R7), not to the relative locations of the registers in the floating point register stack (ST0 through ST7). As a result, the MMX register mapping is fixed and is not affected by value in top of stack field in the floating point status word. When a value is written into an MMX register using an MMX instruction, the value also appears in the corresponding floating point register in bits 0 through 63. Likewise, when a floating point value written into a floating point register by a floating point instruction, the mantissa of the value also appears in the corresponding MMX register." -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 11:46:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39721 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:52:38 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: PC emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Just in case anyone is wondering about this, I figured I'd dump everything I learned when I tried =) First you have the CPU. You need to decide which one you are going to emulate, 8086/8088, 286, or 386+. If you are going with the 8086/8088, you will need to be cycle accurate, and limit the speed to that of the early PC's due to teh fact that people still timed code. This may also be true with the 286. The 8086/8088 have an interesting design, they are made up of 2 main units, the Execution Unit (EU), and Bus Interface Unit (BIU). The BIU takes 4 clocks to read an atom of data (8 bits on the 8088, 16 bits on the 8086). It has an internal queue (8 bytes if I remember correctly) to hold instructions. If there are 2 free spots or more, it will read until it is full (8086, 8088 fills if 1 or mroe is full). If, at the beginning of a 4-clock bus cycle, the EU has an outstanding request for memory access, the BIU operates on that. The EU gets all instruction bytes from the queue. I believe the 8086 book gives the execution times in EU cycles, and you have to add 4 for each memory transaction. For the 286, it has it's own little protected mode that I have no information on whatsoever. The 386+'s are beasts. Emulating every last protection check can be a real pain in the ass. If you are going the extreme route, you also need to emulate the effects of both the cache, and possibly the somewhat complex behavior of the PPro and up... (out of order execution, register renaming, etc) However nasty that may sound, it pales in comparison to the rest. First, you need a bios image. Acquiring this can be harder than it sounds, as the 386+ chips start executing at FFFFFFF0. The first far JMP will change this down to FFFF0. What that means is that there could be bios code not accessible in most circumstances. I made an attempt to trace this stuff once. The code was worse than Super Mario Brothers when it came to spaghetti jumps. Hardware is another issue. Off the top of my head, here is the list of basic devices you have to emulate at the low end: RTC, 2 8259 PICs, DMA controller, graphics card, 8250/16450/16550 serial port, Parallel port, keyboard (with onboard 8048), IDE controller, floppy controller, and possibly a sound card. Information on these can be somewhat difficult to acquire, at least at the level of detail needed for perfect emulation. On the upside, for most things post 286 era, you do not need to be cycle perfect, unless you're dealing with some particular tightly coded demos that pull insane shit with the VGA. The graphics cards are large projects on their own. The VGA was capable of some fairly complex operations in 4-bit and 8-bit planar modes. The vast slew of SVGA cards also comes to mind, some with fairly complicated coprocessors/accelerator chips. Documentation for most of these is not too hard to come by though, the "Programmers Guide to the EGA/VGA, and SVGA chipsets" (not exact title, it's 1500 miles away right now...) provides more information than one would think possible. For a bare bones emulation, the RTC, PIC, DMA, and floppy controller are needed. If you are going for PC/XT emulation, remember that they used a different HD interface than the current one. Information on these is somewhat limited outside of a library with books at the right age. Then again, your goals may differ. When I tried, I was going for something basic that would let me test OS code without rebooting (I grew rather fond of dosemu letting me debug the bootloader...) Hence, I needed a 386+ implementation that supported all the Pmode trappings... So, if you really consider doing one, that's what you're up against =) I have considered doing a CPU only implementation of the IA-64 just for the hell of it, but then, what would it be good for? =P John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 13:41:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA40226 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:41:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004701bf9834$d8eb8be0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:37:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > In fact, this is something I live quite happily without. Whether that's due > > more to my disinterest or the fact that I have to pay for the phone bill, > > I'm not quite sure... :) > > Hey, I'm all for porn! It's just a matter of time, that's all! I'm on a modem and I have to pay for phone calls. I'm not. :) > > > You and I should probably work together on this one. I already have a lot > > > of the pieces of the puzzle. > > Really? I'd be very interested in this. I'll check with the other guy and > > if he has no problems then we can maybe make a start on it in a few weeks > > (we're currently designing the framework for the emulator at the moment, > > doing the graphics routines etc)? > > I had planned on doing my own 68K core, too, but my thinking is that we > can create a 68K core that would "plug in" directly to this recompiler > "architecture" I'm working on. Sounds a cool idea. I'm very interested. Yes indeed. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 14:46:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA40515 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:46:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:45:38 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Correct. Oh, if only they were separate! According to the Intel >Architecture Software Developer's Manual (10-2): >"The MMX state consists of eight 64 bit registers (MM0-MM7). These >registers are aliased to the 64 bit mantissas (bits 0-63) of floating >point registers R0 through R7. Note that the MMX registers are mapped to >the physical locations of the floating point registers (R0 through R7), >not to the relative locations of the registers in the floating point >register stack (ST0 through ST7). As a result, the MMX register mapping is >fixed and is not affected by value in top of stack field in the floating >point status word. >When a value is written into an MMX register using an MMX instruction, the >value also appears in the corresponding floating point register in bits 0 >through 63. Likewise, when a floating point value written into a floating >point register by a floating point instruction, the mantissa of the value >also appears in the corresponding MMX register." Why did they implement two different physical locations when the act as the same anyway? Well, maybe it was easier to realize the MMX istructions on 64-bit registers than on the FP registers, but it's still a bit weird... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 15:02:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA40562 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:02:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:04:59 -0500 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: <9upvdss3vsvvdgp8e02u76ccflnp4066qq@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:45:38 CEST, "Michael Koenig" wrote: >>Correct. Oh, if only they were separate! According to the Intel >>Architecture Software Developer's Manual (10-2): >>"The MMX state consists of eight 64 bit registers (MM0-MM7). These >>registers are aliased to the 64 bit mantissas (bits 0-63) of floating >>point registers R0 through R7. Note that the MMX registers are mapped >to >>the physical locations of the floating point registers (R0 through >R7), >>not to the relative locations of the registers in the floating point >>register stack (ST0 through ST7). As a result, the MMX register >mapping is >>fixed and is not affected by value in top of stack field in the >floating >>point status word. >>When a value is written into an MMX register using an MMX instruction, >the >>value also appears in the corresponding floating point register in >bits 0 >>through 63. Likewise, when a floating point value written into a >floating >>point register by a floating point instruction, the mantissa of the >value >>also appears in the corresponding MMX register." > >Why did they implement two different physical locations when the act as >the same anyway? Well, maybe it was easier to realize the MMX >istructions on 64-bit registers than on the FP registers, but it's >still a bit weird... The key is that they use the same physical locations in the CPU, addressed through two different access methods - FP and MMX ops. By doing this, multitasking operating systems that already maintained the FP register context would by default also maintain the MMX register context - since they are, in actuality, the same registers. In other words, MMX could be implemented without requiring any changes to existing multitasking operating systems (like Windows, Linux, and Beos). -- Jack ---- The road to truth and enlightenment is long... be sure to bring a snack and something to drink - Seen on a bumper sticker --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 15:11:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA40627 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:11:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:11:49 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > value > >also appears in the corresponding MMX register." > Why did they implement two different physical locations when the act as > the same anyway? They didn't. They're aliased to the same registers! The reasons for doing so are as follows: * No need to change any existing operating system context switching routines for multiple apps using MMX/FP * When you're doing MMX style of instructions, FP really isn't that useful (and vice versa). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 23:53:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA42517 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:53:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E06452.8E80B14C@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:50:42 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > >BTW, what happened this weekend? The university server was down ... > > Do you mean on this list or in general? > > Well, eg. we had the Oscar night, or in my case the Oscar morning from > 2 AM to 7:30 AM... > BTW, Spain got the Oscar for the best foreign film. > More details here: > http://www.oscar.com/oscarnight.html > Don´t remember this another time :) Months listening that Almodovar (the director) will win the Oscar, all weekend TV, radio talking about it ... And finally yesterday it was the main subject too ... It´s OK a Spanish film win the Oscar, but I think there was too much publicity here. And I don´t like the director ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Mar 27 23:59:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA42547 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:59:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E065EA.C8B7C589@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:57:30 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > >What do HLE means? > > High Level Emulation: you spare some hardware emulation by trapping > system calls and emulating these directly. In the case of UltraHLE the > calls to Nintendo's game library are trapped. > It´s something like trap system calls in an OS as DOS to not emulate direct disk access. > > >Do you know new IA-64? I readed something this weekend. > * Have I already mentioned that it's a monster? > Yes :) I have readed a bit of what you say. I have all documentation from Intel (all I found) and I have to take a more careful look. The first impression is that it´s really something big and new. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 00:05:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA42568 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:05:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E066E1.3A7AFA11@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:01:37 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > >What I don't know still is how IA-64 keeps backwards compatibility > with IA-32, > >perhaps I have missed it but I haven't seen anything in Intel > documentation. > >They just say it's compatible, but I haven't see how. > > The processor has two hardware modes: IA-32 and IA-64. An idea, which > was probably inventend by ARM (now also used by MIPS and SuperH) to > switch between their ARM and Thumb instruction sets is utilized by > Itanium. But what they have then, two decode engines in the same chip? Something I have thought: what would be faster use a hardware decoder for IA-32 or use 'Code Morphin' (in fact emulation) how is used in TransMeta. Perhaps a dynarec for IA-32 would generate faster code. > Special jump instructions are used to jump between blocks of > different modes, x86 therefore got a new the new instruction "jmpe" > (jump and exchange?) and the IA-64 equivalent is "bra.ia". Interrupts > are only handled by IA-64 which is why the operating system must > support x86 programs to be really able to run these. So you can change the mode each time you want. > > In IA-32 mode some of the GPRs and FPRs (8 to 31) are used to emulate > the x86 register, for EFLAG the application register 24 is reserved. > That's what I could extract from Intel's "IA-64 Application Developer's > Architecture Guide, Rev. 1.0". Hope that helps ;-) > I will take a large look up at it. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 00:22:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA42609 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:22:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E06B31.A755E3DC@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:20:01 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <004701bf9834$d8eb8be0$0a909090@okay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > > > > You and I should probably work together on this one. I already have a > lot > > > > of the pieces of the puzzle. > > > Really? I'd be very interested in this. I'll check with the other guy > and > > > if he has no problems then we can maybe make a start on it in a few > weeks > > > (we're currently designing the framework for the emulator at the moment, > > > doing the graphics routines etc)? > > > > I had planned on doing my own 68K core, too, but my thinking is that we > > can create a 68K core that would "plug in" directly to this recompiler > > "architecture" I'm working on. > > Sounds a cool idea. I'm very interested. Yes indeed. :) > In my university project I planned to do a simple MegaDrive emulator with a recompiler M68000 (now is really stoped :( ), but if I don´t change my mind and implement a GameBoy one :) I thought to use the NB approach to the M68000 recompiler core (I think it fits better with a MegaDrive). I have to do it on my own (someday ...) but I could help in something in your M68000 core if you want (In fact when I started a Z80 core -never finished- it was hard after seen Neil´s core to do something different in the general ideas, perhaps I don´t have my own ideas ... :o, so something similar could happen with the M68000 core) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 00:30:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA42636 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:30:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E06D1C.9959209B@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:28:12 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: PC emulation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com tarquin@austin.rr.com wrote: > Just in case anyone is wondering about this, I figured I'd dump everything > I learned when I tried =) > Really interesting your information :) I know a bit also about PC, ok well it´s the only system I really know well ;) And I figured a lot of things you say. I readed someday about 386+ priviliged instructions and I ever believed it will be really hard to do an emulator for this. And you have to emulate direct disk access (by In/Out) or to trap BIOS or OS calls if you want to emulate DOS (and perhaps WinX too). An XT and perhaps a 286 AT could be done with less or more work, perhaps would be the same as doing an Amiga emulator or something like that (and this is already difficult). But a 386+ would be a real nightmare for implement, a lot of work will be needed. Perhaps would be the most ambitous emulater even made ;) > > I have considered doing a CPU only implementation of the IA-64 just for > the hell of it, but then, what would it be good for? =P > You can´t stand without try the new IA-64, don´t you? ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 01:39:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA42768 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:39:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E07B11.CA559CB5@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:27:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <004701bf9834$d8eb8be0$0a909090@okay> <38E06B31.A755E3DC@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Sounds a cool idea. I'm very interested. Yes indeed. :) > > In my university project I planned to do a simple MegaDrive emulator with a > recompiler M68000 (now is really stoped :( ), but if I don´t change my mind and > implement a GameBoy one :) I thought to use the NB approach to the M68000 > recompiler core (I think it fits better with a MegaDrive). I have to do it on > my own (someday ...) but I could help in something in your M68000 core if you > want (In fact when I started a Z80 core -never finished- it was hard after seen > Neil´s core to do something different in the general ideas, perhaps I don´t have > my own ideas ... :o, so something similar could happen with the M68000 core) Up to NB, though I don't mind. Anyway, looks like NB is busy at the moment. I'll be working on my own emulator core in the meantime (I can leave the CPU out for the moment) doing all the graphics routines and things. Heck, I'm busy too - so by the time I've done this, NB will probably have finished his contract! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 01:43:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA42781 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:43:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E07C83.17B8B54C@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:33:55 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Memory Cache References: <38E06D1C.9959209B@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I said to talk about memory cache in emulation. I don´t really know much about it but I will talk a bit. Nowadays we have really big caches so it isn´t perhaps a problem but I can talk about it. The problem comes from the expansion in code and data that suposes an interpreter. An interpreter from a 16 bit CPU as M68000 (as the StarScream core is) uses big tables for decoding purpose and a lot of differents functions to perform the emulation of the M68K instruction set. This becomes in a big expansion in the code really executed in emulated. You can see that a native loop executed in an interpreter executes a lot of more code than in the native system. In the last case you only have to store in cache (ok, this systems don´t have cache though ...) the loop code and the data you are using. But in an interpreter you have to store the loop code itself, the data used by the loop and then the functions that execute the instructions for all instructions in the loop and the decode table entries for this instructions. So the size of the cached data becomes really big. This won´t really happen on an 8-bit CPU because the real size of the core fits full in actual caches: for example for Z80 you need only four (or five) decode tables of 1KB size each and only about a hundred or less of different functions for execute instructions, each function 100 bytes in size, so in 256KB or 512KB caches all CPU core fits (and usually all emulator data too!). But with an assembler full optimized M68K core you will use a 64K entries table each entry of 4 bytes. So you need 256KB only for the decode table. And you have hundreds (perhaps a thousand) different functions if you really want to full use the decode table. So you have a lot of more code for being cached. So this hardly will fit in a normal cache. You don´t need all time all the decode table nor the functions so cache already works but you will get some cache misses. The problem comes from do a full 16-bit opcode decode, you can use arrays of partial decodes (4 bits to 4 bits decodes for example) but you will still need a lot of tables, but perhaps less code. And you can decode in the instrucntion function. You need less memory and there are less cache misses but this two cases supose slowest code, too. So perhaps will be interesting study what it´s more important a fast decode and fast functions or to have less cache misses. These were my ideas. Now I think that this isn´t a problem, our caches are now really big and fast but I come to this ideas long time ago when I have an old 486. Other issues with cache will be how the hardware emulation functions handle the data they use. I´m thinking in graphics and sound emulation. If there is a lot of movement of data you need to think about cache when you build the graphics and sound system. But I´m no really an expert in graphics nor sound emulation :( BTW do you know documents/links or whatever to learn about this topics? Something more. When building a dynarec emulator there are some architectures that have separate instruction and data caches (not happens in x86) and they need an instruction that flushes the cache when code is modified. Something to take into account when building a dynarec. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 01:47:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA42797 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E07EB7.4AD5A850@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:43:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: PC emulation References: <38E06D1C.9959209B@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Perhaps would be the most ambitous emulater even made ;) Ooh, I don't know. I could emulate it really easily on my PII. ;) > > I have considered doing a CPU only implementation of the IA-64 just for > > the hell of it, but then, what would it be good for? =P > > You can´t stand without try the new IA-64, don´t you? ;) If Intel want to send me one for free, I know that I wouldn't complain. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 03:15:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA43212 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:15:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:07:21 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id DAA43209 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Don´t remember this another time :) >Months listening that Almodovar (the director) will win the Oscar, all weekend >TV, radio talking about it ... >And finally yesterday it was the main subject too ... >It´s OK a Spanish film win the Oscar, but I think there was too much publicity >here. And I don´t like the director ;) I have to admit that I haven't seen many films by Pedro Almadovar so far... I only thought it was worth mentioning it to you, but if you already knew it... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 03:15:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA43223 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:15:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:13:58 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id DAA43220 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes :) I have readed a bit of what you say. I have all documentation from >Intel (all I found) and I have to take a more careful look. The first >impression is that it´s really something big and new. I wouldn't call it new. They took lots of features that are already known, but they made it big, big, big... >But what they have then, two decode engines in the same chip? They have to. But I only have the architecture description and not the implementation whitepaper. >Something I have thought: what would be faster use a hardware decoder for IA-32 >or use 'Code Morphin' (in fact emulation) how is used in TransMeta. Perhaps a >dynarec for IA-32 would generate faster code. Well, since a Pentium already translates the x86 to RISC-like internal instructions I guess they'll do something similar in Itanium... >So you can change the mode each time you want. Yes, but you won't have that many IA-32 applacations calling IA-64 code blocks I bet. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 03:15:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA43230 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:15:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: PC emulation Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:14:16 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >If Intel want to send me one for free, I know that I wouldn't complain. :) Neither would I ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 04:06:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA43325 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Memory Cache Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:06:08 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Ok, I don't have that much time right now, so I will be brief: * My Atari Mega STE 4 has a standard 68K but clocked with 16MHz and equipped with a cache, although I don't know how large it is. * The newer (Pentium++) Intel and AMD processors also have split L1 caches, but for compatability reasons they had to make these "transparent", ie. self-modifying code is handled by the hardware. * It's a bit too easy to take just the size of the cache, you also have to consider its organization: - How large is a cache line? - How many lines are there? - Are the entries direct mapped, fully associative, or set associative? - How are cache lines replaced? - How are the cache lines indexed and tagged? I think that's about it. Prepare for more comprehensive coverage of these questions later today... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 04:07:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA43334 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E09F7E.219AD795@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:03:10 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: PC emulation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >If Intel want to send me one for free, I know that I wouldn't > complain. :) > > Neither would I ;-) So, NB, hold any influence at Intel? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 04:08:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA43343 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:08:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E09F62.D15B8ACC@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:02:42 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Well, since a Pentium already translates the x86 to RISC-like internal > instructions I guess they'll do something similar in Itanium... It's not just RISC-like - it is RISC. They break CISC instructions into RISC through their convertor (I *do* know the name for it, but I can't remember!) which is built into the pipelines and execute the RISC instructions. It's because of this that I wonder how long it'll be before they want to lose x86 instruction compatibility. From their point of view, it may well be worth doing a x86 emulator and running that instead. > Yes, but you won't have that many IA-32 applacations calling IA-64 code > blocks I bet. Or many IA-32 applications at all! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 04:42:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA43421 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:42:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003281244.OAA08758@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: PC emulation In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 28, 2000 01:14:16 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:44:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >If Intel want to send me one for free, I know that I wouldn't > complain. :) > > Neither would I ;-) > I want one too ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 04:45:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA43434 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:42:24 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It's not just RISC-like - it is RISC. They break CISC instructions into >RISC through their convertor (I *do* know the name for it, but I can't >remember!) which is built into the pipelines and execute the RISC >instructions. The main reason why I call it RISC-like is that RISC is an architectural and not an implementational term! You cannot call something RISC just because it uses some techniques that were developed for RISC architectures if you don't sense anything of it at the architectural level, and that wasn't changed in any way since the 386. Yes, they introduced some new instructions but the overall architecture is the same. >It's because of this that I wonder how long it'll be before they want to >lose x86 instruction compatibility. From their point of view, it may well >be worth doing a x86 emulator and running that instead. I said that long ago and I bet Intel thought of it as well, but they don't want to loose any customers... If the customers understood more of processor architectures then the IA-32 would have been abandoned years ago. >> Yes, but you won't have that many IA-32 applacations calling IA-64 code >> blocks I bet. >Or many IA-32 applications at all! :) Sure, the most important applications will be ported to IA-64 but there will be still some that won't be ported or that just take a bit longer to be ported. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 04:46:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA43442 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:46:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003281247.OAA11839@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 28, 2000 01:07:21 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:47:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I only thought it was worth mentioning it to you, but if you already > knew it... You have to trust me, there isn't a single person in Spain who doesn't knows it ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 05:02:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA43474 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:02:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E0ABC2.F375E203@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:55:30 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > The main reason why I call it RISC-like is that RISC is an > architectural and not an implementational term! You cannot call > something RISC just because it uses some techniques that were developed > for RISC architectures if you don't sense anything of it at the > architectural level, and that wasn't changed in any way since the 386. > Yes, they introduced some new instructions but the overall architecture > is the same. No. In fact it *IS* a RISC CPU with a CISC translator. If your internal working is RISC then it doesn't matter how you interface with the CPU, does it? I like the term they invented for it at the time: CRISP. :) > I said that long ago and I bet Intel thought of it as well, but they > don't want to loose any customers... If the customers understood more > of processor architectures then the IA-32 would have been abandoned > years ago. We think alike, because I've been saying that since Pentium times. Possibly 486 times too, but definitely from the P5 times... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 08:30:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA44022 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:30:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <20000328162808.18427.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [212.229.0.107] From: "D C" To: References: <38E09F62.D15B8ACC@eurocopter.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:22:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Well, since a Pentium already translates the x86 to RISC-like internal > > instructions I guess they'll do something similar in Itanium... > > It's not just RISC-like - it is RISC. They break CISC instructions into > RISC through their convertor (I *do* know the name for it, but I can't > remember!) which is built into the pipelines and execute the RISC > instructions. > > It's because of this that I wonder how long it'll be before they want to > lose x86 instruction compatibility. From their point of view, it may well > be worth doing a x86 emulator and running that instead. > Its just an idea but if Intel ever decided to ditch the x86 instruction set wouldn't the backwards compatability with all older software get thrown out of the window. But if they did the result would probably be something like protected mode wherer the core of the CPU could be switched on the fly from reading instrucutions as x86 and converting them to direct to RISC instructions. The coder could then decided what instruction set to use and the procressor would also run all that old code i.e. Buggy Windows. Just a thought. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 08:45:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA44077 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:45:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E0E05F.4C888259@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:39:59 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <38E09F62.D15B8ACC@eurocopter.de> <20000328162808.18427.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > It's because of this that I wonder how long it'll be before they want to > > lose x86 instruction compatibility. From their point of view, it may well > > be worth doing a x86 emulator and running that instead. > > > Its just an idea but if Intel ever decided to ditch the x86 instruction set wouldn't the backwards > compatability with all older software get thrown out of the window. Yes, along with their main reason for such a high market share. However, that's why I suggested the need for a x86 emulator. The technology is there (Transmeta, anyone?) and can be perfected. > But if they did the result > would probably be something like protected mode wherer the core of the CPU could be switched on the > fly from reading instrucutions as x86 and converting them to direct to RISC instructions. The coder > could then decided what instruction set to use and the procressor would also run all that old code > i.e. Buggy Windows. If they got rid of x86 instructions, this wouldn't be possible. Or do you mean having like a seperate part of the CPU just for translating x86 into RISC? Maybe, though I think the emulation would be a cheaper idea - and would also scale with the speed of the CPU... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 09:31:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA44195 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:23:39 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No. In fact it *IS* a RISC CPU with a CISC translator. If your internal >working is RISC then it doesn't matter how you interface with the CPU, does >it? It does matter because that's purely implementational and you still only see the aged IA-32 on the outside! This is as if you'd say that a Pentium has a large register set, which is totally true if you take a look at the implementation since it has a large register file for register renaming, but nevertheless you're unable to use these directly. Another example is Transmeta's Crusoe. It's a VLIW processor but so far I found no information about it's instruction set and I only know how many registers it has (64) but not how large these are. So from the architectural view it's just another x86 clone... >I like the term they invented for it at the time: CRISP. :) Pure PR talk! They noticed that RISC processors sell good and that some customers heard that RISC is said to be superior and then every firm used to sell RISC products no matter if it really was RISC in the original sense! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 09:31:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA44199 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:26:20 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >You have to trust me, there isn't a single person in Spain who doesn't knows it ;) Erm, I might have estimated that... I saw a show yesterday, what they called the "highlights" of Oscar, and I was shocked that they left out many categories including most technical ones which led to Matrix not being mentioned at all and that film got 4 Oscars... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 09:31:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA44207 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:31:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:28:08 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Its just an idea but if Intel ever decided to ditch the x86 instruction set wouldn't the backwards >compatability with all older software get thrown out of the window. But if they did the result >would probably be something like protected mode wherer the core of the CPU could be switched on the >fly from reading instrucutions as x86 and converting them to direct to RISC instructions. The coder >could then decided what instruction set to use and the procressor would also run all that old code >i.e. Buggy Windows. >Just a thought. Take a look at Itanium (IA-64) and you'll see that they did exactly that! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 09:32:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA44214 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:32:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: PC emulation Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:29:06 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com BTW, isn't Bochs open source now? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 10:11:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA44362 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:11:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Free BeOS 5 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:39:45 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com A bit off topic... Free BeOS 5 is now available: http://free.be.com/ Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 10:19:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA44407 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:19:21 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E09F62.D15B8ACC@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Well, since a Pentium already translates the x86 to RISC-like internal > > instructions I guess they'll do something similar in Itanium... > It's not just RISC-like - it is RISC. They break CISC instructions into > RISC through their convertor (I *do* know the name for it, but I can't > remember!) which is built into the pipelines and execute the RISC > instructions. Superscalar stage 3 RISC CPU. > It's because of this that I wonder how long it'll be before they want to > lose x86 instruction compatibility. From their point of view, it may well > be worth doing a x86 emulator and running that instead. Probably won't for a long, long time. That would be business suicide. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 10:21:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA44421 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:21:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:21:04 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >RISC through their convertor (I *do* know the name for it, but I can't > >remember!) which is built into the pipelines and execute the RISC > >instructions. > The main reason why I call it RISC-like is that RISC is an > architectural and not an implementational term! You cannot call > something RISC just because it uses some techniques that were developed > for RISC architectures if you don't sense anything of it at the > architectural level, and that wasn't changed in any way since the 386. > Yes, they introduced some new instructions but the overall architecture > is the same. Don't know much about the Pentium's internals, do you? ;-) Indeed, it's a *RADICAL* change from the 486. About the only thing they kept was the lookup tables for doing basic math, but the CPU is a complete redesign of the 486 and not laid out anything like anything pre-Pentium. > >> Yes, but you won't have that many IA-32 applacations calling IA-64 > >> blocks I bet. > >Or many IA-32 applications at all! :) > Sure, the most important applications will be ported to IA-64 but there > will be still some that won't be ported or that just take a bit longer > to be ported. Or you run it on a Wilamette. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 10:25:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA44450 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:25:25 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >working is RISC then it doesn't matter how you interface with the CPU, > >it? > It does matter because that's purely implementational and you still > only see the aged IA-32 on the outside! This is as if you'd say that a > Pentium has a large register set, which is totally true if you take a > look at the implementation since it has a large register file for > register renaming, but nevertheless you're unable to use these > directly. Internally it does have a large register set and dozens of execution units. It's a hardware emulator for the Pentium. ;-) > Another example is Transmeta's Crusoe. It's a VLIW processor but so far > I found no information about it's instruction set and I only know how > many registers it has (64) but not how large these are. So from the > architectural view it's just another x86 clone... So if a MIPS-4 emulates a Z80, then it's just a Z80 clone, right? ;-) > >I like the term they invented for it at the time: CRISP. :) > Pure PR talk! They noticed that RISC processors sell good and that some > customers heard that RISC is said to be superior and then every firm > used to sell RISC products no matter if it really was RISC in the > original sense! That's awful presumptuous of you - attaching speculation on something that you had zero involvement in. ;-| Until you mentioned it above, I had never heard of "CRISP", and I work for the company - 2 years of which in the CPU division! So much for PR talk. But at the micro op level, it's a 4 on the floor RISC machine with many execution units and an architecture that's both straightforward and complex. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 13:10:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA45305 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:10:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf98f9$a9d747c0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:51:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Another example is Transmeta's Crusoe. It's a VLIW processor but so far > > I found no information about it's instruction set and I only know how > > many registers it has (64) but not how large these are. So from the > > architectural view it's just another x86 clone... > > So if a MIPS-4 emulates a Z80, then it's just a Z80 clone, right? ;-) I'm glad you agree with my point. :) > > >I like the term they invented for it at the time: CRISP. :) > > Pure PR talk! They noticed that RISC processors sell good and that some > > customers heard that RISC is said to be superior and then every firm > > used to sell RISC products no matter if it really was RISC in the > > original sense! > > That's awful presumptuous of you - attaching speculation on something that > you had zero involvement in. ;-| Until you mentioned it above, I had never > heard of "CRISP", and I work for the company - 2 years of which in the CPU > division! So much for PR talk. I'm sorry about that. When you create a new acronym for computers and give it a food name, I'm not going to forget it. Sorry. :) If I remember correctly, it stands for "Complex Reduced Instruction Set Processor"... > But at the micro op level, it's a 4 on the floor RISC machine with many > execution units and an architecture that's both straightforward and > complex. Sounds just like any other RISC processor. But then... that's because it is! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 13:10:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA45313 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:10:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000201bf98f9$a623b5a0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:47:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > It does matter because that's purely implementational and you still > only see the aged IA-32 on the outside! Okay, we're becoming more theological. :) Imagine this: You are now running a C64 emulator. You now only see the 6510 CPU on the outside. It's not a 6510, it's just acting like one. Imagine this: You have a RISC CPU. You have a CISC->RISC convertor. Is your CPU RISC or CISC? It's only acting like a CISC processor... > Another example is Transmeta's Crusoe. It's a VLIW processor but so far > I found no information about it's instruction set and I only know how > many registers it has (64) but not how large these are. So from the > architectural view it's just another x86 clone... And if I make it run 68k code, it's a 68k clone? > >I like the term they invented for it at the time: CRISP. :) > > Pure PR talk! They noticed that RISC processors sell good and that some > customers heard that RISC is said to be superior and then every firm > used to sell RISC products no matter if it really was RISC in the > original sense! a) That doesn't change the fact that I like the term "CRISP". It amuses me somewhat. It's great for overclockers. "Your CPU's a bit CRISPy, isn't it?"... :) b) So, what *IS* RISC in the original sense? What makes the P5 and above series a non-RISC CPU? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 13:35:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA45389 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:35:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Memory Cache Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:34:49 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Ok, now something more about caches... First of all a cache isn't just a pool of 256k memory or so which is fast and can cache often used memory locations. To really work it needs an organisation. First of all a cache is divided in entries where each consists of a tag to identify the entry and a cache line which holds several bytes of data. To see if a certain address is already cached the address is normally split in three parts: * The upper part (similar to the page number) is used as the tag. * The middle part is used as an index to the cache. * The lowest part addresses the desired byte in the cache line. In the most primitive but also fastest cache, a direct mapping one, the cache controller simply takes the middle part of the address and performs a "index modulo number of cache lines" operation. That way we find out which cache line could yield the data. Now the tag of the address (upper part) and the tag in the cache entry are compared to check if it holds the correct data. If it does, good. If it doesn't hold the right data then the data and some additional bytes to fill the whole cache line of that entry are loaded from the main memory. The advantage of the direct mapped cache is that it's simple and fast but if you happen to repeatedly access data with the same index on different pages then you always have to replace the same cache line even when the other entries of the cache should be unused. BTW, you don't have to use the physical address as the cache index. Most processors with virtual memory use the virtual address instead because you don't have to wait till the MMU found the right page translation to know if the cache holds the right data. Some processors have a hybrid approach, eg. SPARC is virtually indexed and physically tagged. This means the virtual address is used to calculate the cache index and when it has found the cache line the MMU should have the physical address ready to to compare it to the tag. The advantage of virtually indexed caches should be clear, speed. The disadvantage is that you could have address aliases, ie. if you have shared memory two different virtual addresses refer to the same physical address. In that case the cache either has to be kept up to date all the time, but since that's rather complicated the normal method is to leave shared memory uncached. The other extreme of cache organisation is a fully assiciative cache. In that case you have no index at all and the tag of the address, which is now the whole address apart from the lower part needed to address the byte in the cache line, is compared to *all* tags in the cache to find the correct cache line. This is normally implemented by storing the cache tag in CAM (content addressable memory) and the cache line in RAM as usual. The advantage of such a cache is that you only have to replace cache entries if the cache is totally full. The disadvantages are that it's slower to compare all the tags than just one, CAMs need more power than RAM, and if you have to replace a cache entry you need an algorithm to do that, either LRU or a pseudo random algorithm are used. Ok, these were the two extreme forms but there are lots of possible steps in between. These are called n-way set associative caches. In this case the index of the address is used to select a certain set from the cache and then compare the "n" entries in that set to the tag of the address. In reality you have separate caches RAMs where the tag at the same index is compared in parallel. Due to this caches beyond 4-way set associativity are rather complicated and seldom used. The advantage is a better speed than the fully associative cache and a better use of cache space and less accidentally replaced cache lines than in a direct mapped cache. The disadvantage is that you also need a cache entry replacement algorithm, but it only has to operate on the entries on one set and not on the entire cache. The ARM610 has an extraordinary cache, which is 64-way set associative with 256 cache lines. It doesn't have 64 parallel RAMs, but 4 parallel CAMs with 64 tags each. The idea was to save power because only one CAM has to be active and according to statistics the 64-way is as good as a fully associative cache. The Pentium III has first level data and instruction caches with 16k each and both are 4-way set associative. The L2 cache is unified, direct mapped and has either 256k or 512k. The two first level caches of the Athlon are 64k each but are only 2- way set associative. The purest cache monster I know is HP's PA8500. It has first level (L1!) caches of 512k 4-way set associative for instructions and 1MB for data! I have to admit that I need a bit more facts on the Pentium caches (number of entries, size of cache line, virtually or physically indexed) for a real discussion about that topic, but I thought we some might need more information about cache operation first. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 13:35:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA45393 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:35:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:44:32 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Don't know much about the Pentium's internals, do you? ;-) Indeed, it's a >*RADICAL* change from the 486. About the only thing they kept was the >lookup tables for doing basic math, but the CPU is a complete redesign of >the 486 and not laid out anything like anything pre-Pentium. "Internals" is absolutely the right word, because it's on an implementional level. I was talking about instruction set architectures (ISAs) which covers not much more than the registers and instructions visable to the programmer. That's what I've written in the past few mails but no-one seems to get the point. There are two levels (or layers, since you like that term): the ISA and the implementation. The term RISC belongs to the ISA and not to the implementation. >Or you run it on a Wilamette. I guess Merced will only for high-end servers anyway. >Internally it does have a large register set and dozens of execution >units. It's a hardware emulator for the Pentium. ;-) And again it's just internal, ie. an implementation issue, the programmer doesn't see that, so the ISA hasn't changed much since the 386 apart from a few additional instructions and MMX and ISSE. [Crusoe = x86?] >So if a MIPS-4 emulates a Z80, then it's just a Z80 clone, right? ;-) Nope, because you can program the MIPS directly. I'm not sure if this is possible at all with Crusoe but you certainly will have difficulties without any information about it's *real* ISA! >That's awful presumptuous of you - attaching speculation on something that >you had zero involvement in. ;-| Until you mentioned it above, I had never >heard of "CRISP", and I work for the company - 2 years of which in the CPU >division! So much for PR talk. I have to admit that I haven't heard the term CRISP before too. What I meant with PR talk is that at a certain time everyone claimed to have RISC products when they didn't really know what RISC is about! >But at the micro op level, it's a 4 on the floor RISC machine with many >execution units and an architecture that's both straightforward and >complex. And again, RISC is an architecture term. It's nice when they use techniques originally developed for RISC architectures to speed up their processors, but as long as it's implemented deep inside and doesn't show up at the surface you cannot call it a RISC processor! That's all I wanted to express. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 13:46:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA45445 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:46:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:46:42 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >*RADICAL* change from the 486. About the only thing they kept was the > >lookup tables for doing basic math, but the CPU is a complete redesign > >the 486 and not laid out anything like anything pre-Pentium. > "Internals" is absolutely the right word, because it's on an > implementional level. I was talking about instruction set architectures > (ISAs) which covers not much more than the registers and instructions > visable to the programmer. "Instruction set architecture" is really an oxymoron, as "instruction set" and "architecture" have no bearing on one another. > That's what I've written in the past few mails but no-one seems to get > the point. There are two levels (or layers, since you like that term): > the ISA and the implementation. The term RISC belongs to the ISA and > not to the implementation. Uh... no, you've got that wrong. RISC Can apply to execution of any instruction set, which internally the Pentium is. Saying it's RISC CPU emulating a CISC instruction set is the correct way to be stated. But at heart it is a RISC CPU. Sorry - even masters of their fields would disagree with you on this one. > [Crusoe = x86?] > >So if a MIPS-4 emulates a Z80, then it's just a Z80 clone, right? ;-) > Nope, because you can program the MIPS directly. I'm not sure if this > is possible at all with Crusoe but you certainly will have difficulties > without any information about it's *real* ISA! Okay, so if I reprogram a Crusoe to become a Z80 at the micro op level, it's no longer a RISC CPU? That's splitting hairs to an extreme. > I have to admit that I haven't heard the term CRISP before too. What I > meant with PR talk is that at a certain time everyone claimed to have > RISC products when they didn't really know what RISC is about! Oh come on. Ever heard of the i860 and i960 (circa 1984)? Intel knows something about it. Sheesh. And that was long before the Pentium. So what do you call the Power PC architecture (since it's not a CPU)? It has so many CISC like instructions that it shouldn't be called RISC. > >But at the micro op level, it's a 4 on the floor RISC machine with > >execution units and an architecture that's both straightforward and > >complex. > And again, RISC is an architecture term. It's nice when they use > techniques originally developed for RISC architectures to speed up > their processors, but as long as it's implemented deep inside and > doesn't show up at the surface you cannot call it a RISC processor! You're going to stumble across a lot of people who will disagree with you on this point. The term "RISC" has been so smeared in the last 10 years that it's almost a politically correct meaningless term. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 13:47:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA45454 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:47:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:45:24 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Okay, we're becoming more theological. :) Really? I'm not very religious! ;-) >Imagine this: You are now running a C64 emulator. You now only see the 6510 >CPU on the outside. It's not a 6510, it's just acting like one. >Imagine this: You have a RISC CPU. You have a CISC->RISC convertor. Is your >CPU RISC or CISC? It's only acting like a CISC processor... In both cases you'd still be able to run software that uses the real ISA, but on a Pentium you are not able to access these RISC instructions nor all those registers it's hiding inside!!! That's the difference between ISA and implementation. >And if I make it run 68k code, it's a 68k clone? If you can write a code morpher for it, sure. The gag is that as soon as the code morpher runs you won't be able to execute other code than that what the code morpher is abe to translate so the real architecture of the processor is disguised. But I doubt that you'd be able to write a code morpher for Crusoe if you don't know what registers or instructions you have available... >b) So, what *IS* RISC in the original sense? What makes the P5 and above >series a non-RISC CPU? The instruction set architecture, meaning the registers and instructions you can use to program that thing! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 14:13:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA45585 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:13:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:13:51 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >"Instruction set architecture" is really an oxymoron, as "instruction set" >and "architecture" have no bearing on one another. It's "instruction set" + "architecture", where architecture means the registers which you can access as a systems programmer. I think you mix up the terms architecture and implementation. >Uh... no, you've got that wrong. RISC Can apply to execution of any >instruction set, which internally the Pentium is. Saying it's RISC CPU >emulating a CISC instruction set is the correct way to be stated. But at >heart it is a RISC CPU. Sorry - even masters of their fields would >disagree with you on this one. Ok, are you able to use all those fancy registers and RISC instructions inside the Pentium? No, so it's not a RISC processor for me! >Okay, so if I reprogram a Crusoe to become a Z80 at the micro op level, >it's no longer a RISC CPU? That's splitting hairs to an extreme. Just as I answered to NG: If you have a code morpher for Z80 code then Crusoe will only be able to execute Z80 code and nothing else so you won't be able to distinguish it from a very fast Z80 if your code morpher works correctly. Remember the code morpher is activated before the BIOS is executed so it's quite similar to some older computers where you could change the microcode. >Oh come on. Ever heard of the i860 and i960 (circa 1984)? Intel knows >something about it. Sheesh. And that was long before the Pentium. I know, and these are truely RISC: 32 GRPs, 32-bit instructions, few addressing modes, relatively simple instructions. I meant that the term RISC was used for Pentium, ColdFire and some other products that don't deserve it. >So what do you call the Power PC architecture (since it's not a CPU)? It >has so many CISC like instructions that it shouldn't be called RISC. The Power architecture is a very extreme example and most see it as a hybrid between RISC and CISC. I surely wouldn't call intructions like "load string" or the 4 branch instructions which yield a few hundred extended forms as RISC. Even the author of the book I have ("Optimizing PowerPC Code") recognized the problem and wrote that in the case of the PowerPC the term RISC cannot be understood as "Reduced Instruction Set Computer" but "Reduced Instruction Set Complexity"! >You're going to stumble across a lot of people who will disagree with you >on this point. The term "RISC" has been so smeared in the last 10 years >that it's almost a politically correct meaningless term. Yeah, but only because it was misused when firms observed that they were able to catch customers with that term. My understanding of the term RISC mainly grounds on the work of David Patterson and John Hennessy, and Patterson *invented* that term! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 14:22:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA45649 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:22:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:22:13 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >and "architecture" have no bearing on one another. > It's "instruction set" + "architecture", where architecture means the > registers which you can access as a systems programmer. Depends. Architecture means "design of processor" or "organization of processor hardware". > I think you mix up the terms architecture and implementation. No, they're completely separate terms. > >emulating a CISC instruction set is the correct way to be stated. But > >heart it is a RISC CPU. Sorry - even masters of their fields would > >disagree with you on this one. > Ok, are you able to use all those fancy registers and RISC instructions > inside the Pentium? No, so it's not a RISC processor for me! Key words: *FOR YOU*. I wouldn't call a Pentium a RISC CPU. That'd be misleading. But the Pentium is a RISC CPU at the basic level, emulating a CISC instruction set. > >Okay, so if I reprogram a Crusoe to become a Z80 at the micro op > >it's no longer a RISC CPU? That's splitting hairs to an extreme. > Just as I answered to NG: If you have a code morpher for Z80 code then > Crusoe will only be able to execute Z80 code and nothing else so you > won't be able to distinguish it from a very fast Z80 if your code > morpher works correctly. You can reprogram the Crusoe to emulate any CPU type and not know the difference. It's still a RISC CPU. > I meant that the term RISC was used for Pentium, ColdFire and some > other products that don't deserve it. I think we're saying the same thing. Calling a Pentium an outright RISC CPU is misleading and not quite the whole story. But it's not totally CISC, either. > Even the author of the book I have ("Optimizing PowerPC Code") > recognized the problem and wrote that in the case of the PowerPC the > term RISC cannot be understood as "Reduced Instruction Set Computer" > but "Reduced Instruction Set Complexity"! And that throws on more fuel to the fire. The 386 eliminated a lot of register specific instructions that the 286/8086/8088 had to deal with. It reduced the instruction set complexity quite a bit. But it 'aint RISC! ;-) > Yeah, but only because it was misused when firms observed that they > were able to catch customers with that term. Just like "Security" and "Linux" - other meaningless buzzwords. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 14:38:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA45737 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:38:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:38:46 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Memory Cache In-Reply-To: <38E07C83.17B8B54C@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by synthcom.com id OAA45734 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Nowadays we have really big caches so it isn´t perhaps a problem but I > can talk about it. The problem comes from the expansion in code and > data that suposes an interpreter. An interpreter from a 16 bit CPU as > M68000 (as the StarScream core is) uses big tables for decoding > purpose and a lot of differents functions to perform the emulation of > the M68K instruction set. This becomes in a big expansion in the code > really executed in emulated. You can see that a native loop executed Just remember that only about 10-15% of the instructions are used at any given time. The emulation of instructions and their jump-to addresses only tag a fraction of the overall core size. And also remember that a lot of the opcodes map to the same piece of code. > entries for this instructions. So the size of the cached data becomes > really big. Only if the emulated code has a sparse instruction utilization. > of 4 bytes. So you need 256KB only for the decode table. And you > have hundreds (perhaps a thousand) different functions if you really > want to full use the decode table. So you have a lot of more code for Again, just because it's there, doesn't mean it'll actually wind up in the CPU's cache. Only if it's EXECUTED, and if you have a ton of different instructions that are executed, well, then you're screwed anyway and the cache won't do you any good. > works but you will get some cache misses. The problem comes from do a > full 16-bit opcode decode, you can use arrays of partial decodes (4 > bits to 4 bits decodes for example) but you will still need a lot of > tables, but perhaps less code. And you can decode in the instrucntion You'll spend more time processing the smaller tables than just utilizing a single indirect lookup. You wind up slowing it down. Been there - done that. > These were my ideas. Now I think that this isn´t a problem, our > caches are now really big and fast but I come to this ideas long time > ago when I have an old 486. Then the instructions to parse the smaller lists would be MUCH more of a speed impact. > Something more. When building a dynarec emulator there are some > architectures that have separate instruction and data caches (not > happens in x86) and they need an instruction that flushes the cache > when code is modified. Something to take into account when building a > dynarec. Only if the code is modified at run time. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 14:56:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA45822 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:56:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:56:49 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Depends. Architecture means "design of processor" or "organization of >processor hardware". Then I seem to be used to the first interpretation. >Key words: *FOR YOU*. I wouldn't call a Pentium a RISC CPU. That'd be >misleading. But the Pentium is a RISC CPU at the basic level, emulating a >CISC instruction set. Ok, so we could agreen on the fact that the Pentium has a RISC core which doesn't shine through though and therefore the whole package is not a RISC processor. >You can reprogram the Crusoe to emulate any CPU type and not know the >difference. If you can get enough information about Crusoe's real architecture, which I was unable to get so far. Transmeta doesn't seem to be interested in someone knowing what's under the code morpher, they only want to sell a x86 compatible processor so it's a basically a x86 clone for me. Just as you mentioned in one of our discussions some time ago, what the Crusoe does with it's code morpher isn't that different from what the Pentium does in hardware. >It's still a RISC CPU. Actually it's a VLIW architecture ;-) Well, I think it uses RISC atoms but I only know a very small part of the instruction set from those small code morphing examples. >I think we're saying the same thing. Calling a Pentium an outright RISC >CPU is misleading and not quite the whole story. But it's not totally >CISC, either. Yeah, we've reached an agreement here. >And that throws on more fuel to the fire. The 386 eliminated a lot of >register specific instructions that the 286/8086/8088 had to deal with. It >reduced the instruction set complexity quite a bit. But it 'aint RISC! ;-) Well, the registers are still far from being real GPRs and the instruction length has much variation and it still has many string instructions or the count prefix, so it surely isn't RISC. But there are also RISC processors with some CISC features. To see what I mean you could take a look at my document about the ARM in comparison to other architectures (RISC and CISC) which is still WIP: http://www.linguistik.uni-erlangen.de/~mlkoenig/ArchARM.html >Just like "Security" and "Linux" - other meaningless buzzwords. ;-) Too true! I guess in the future we'll have to refer to certain Linux systems by the name of the distributor because they will be totally incompatible to other "Linux" systems. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 15:01:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA45846 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:01:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:01:15 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Key words: *FOR YOU*. I wouldn't call a Pentium a RISC CPU. That'd be > >misleading. But the Pentium is a RISC CPU at the basic level, > >CISC instruction set. > Ok, so we could agreen on the fact that the Pentium has a RISC core > which doesn't shine through though and therefore the whole package is > not a RISC processor. No, but it's not exclusively a CISC, either. If someone asks me if the Pentium is a RISC or CISC CPU, my response is always "RISC Microarchitecture, CISC instruction set". > Just as you mentioned in one of our discussions some time ago, what the > Crusoe does with it's code morpher isn't that different from what the > Pentium does in hardware. Even the Pentium's microarchitecture is partially programmable. > Well, the registers are still far from being real GPRs and the > instruction length has much variation and it still has many string > instructions or the count prefix, so it surely isn't RISC. I wouldn't say far... but it still has a few instructions that are register specific. > >Just like "Security" and "Linux" - other meaningless buzzwords. ;-) > Too true! I guess in the future we'll have to refer to certain Linux > systems by the name of the distributor because they will be totally > incompatible to other "Linux" systems. That's one of the reasons I have a distaste for Linux. Hype, Hype and 50000 different versions of it that are kinda 4.4BSD and kinda System 5, and kinda its own thing. At least FreeBSD and other *BSDs are full-on 4.4 or even try to adhere to industry standards. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 15:08:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA45887 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:08:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Memory Cache Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:08:13 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> of 4 bytes. So you need 256KB only for the decode table. And you >> have hundreds (perhaps a thousand) different functions if you really >> want to full use the decode table. So you have a lot of more code for >Again, just because it's there, doesn't mean it'll actually wind up in the >CPU's cache. Only if it's EXECUTED, and if you have a ton of different >instructions that are executed, well, then you're screwed anyway and the >cache won't do you any good. Yes, only the parts of the decode table you've recently used will be in the cache. >> Something more. When building a dynarec emulator there are some >> architectures that have separate instruction and data caches (not >> happens in x86) and they need an instruction that flushes the cache >> when code is modified. Something to take into account when building a >> dynarec. >Only if the code is modified at run time. The only has to be done after a new block has just been generated and even then you don't have to flush the whole caches. When self-modifying code isn't handled by hardware (as done by Intel and AMD) then the OS normally has a system call with which you can invalidate all cache entries of a specified memory location. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 15:20:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA45948 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:20:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:20:25 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No, but it's not exclusively a CISC, either. If someone asks me if the >Pentium is a RISC or CISC CPU, my response is always "RISC >Microarchitecture, CISC instruction set". That's a statement I can accept ;-) >Even the Pentium's microarchitecture is partially programmable. Really? That's interesting. Do you know any details? >I wouldn't say far... but it still has a few instructions that are >register specific. Then it would be better not to tell you that Thumb and MIPS16 have PUSH /POP instructions with a hard-wired stack pointer... >That's one of the reasons I have a distaste for Linux. Hype, Hype and >50000 different versions of it that are kinda 4.4BSD and kinda System 5, >and kinda its own thing. Indeed, I especially don't understand the hype because it certainly isn't the answer to all questions. In a magazine they had a comparison of OSs where they wrote that Linux supports more hardware than BeOS, which is perferctly right since the Linux community is quite big and there are several good programmers who write new drivers and BeOS only has a few dozen employees who write new drivers. But on the other hand my sound card works with BeOS but not with Linux, and every time when I ask someone they just answer "I haven't even tried to get it working"! So much for the great hardware support... >At least FreeBSD and other *BSDs are full-on 4.4 >or even try to adhere to industry standards. IMO Unix is a monster OS and not very suitable for the simple single user, but as a server it surely is more stable than NT. I knew I took a look at it but I forgot what system the Synthcom server runs on. Was it Linux or FreeBSD? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 20:35:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA46989 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:35:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:35:09 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >No, but it's not exclusively a CISC, either. If someone asks me if the > >Pentium is a RISC or CISC CPU, my response is always "RISC > >Microarchitecture, CISC instruction set". > That's a statement I can accept ;-) I figured we were saying the same thing. > >Even the Pentium's microarchitecture is partially programmable. > Really? That's interesting. Do you know any details? Yes, but it's Intel secret and I'd have to kill you. > >I wouldn't say far... but it still has a few instructions that are > >register specific. > Then it would be better not to tell you that Thumb and MIPS16 have PUSH > /POP instructions with a hard-wired stack pointer... But I think everything runs that way. The 68K, PPC, Sparc, and 34010 all seem to do that. > >That's one of the reasons I have a distaste for Linux. Hype, Hype and > >50000 different versions of it that are kinda 4.4BSD and kinda System > >and kinda its own thing. > Indeed, I especially don't understand the hype because it certainly > isn't the answer to all questions. It's barely an answer at all, in my opinion. > In a magazine they had a comparison of OSs where they wrote that Linux > supports more hardware than BeOS, which is perferctly right since the > Linux community is quite big and there are several good programmers who > write new drivers and BeOS only has a few dozen employees who write new > drivers. What BeOS does support it supports very well. What Linux supports it's so-so across the board. > But on the other hand my sound card works with BeOS but not > with Linux, and every time when I ask someone they just answer "I > haven't even tried to get it working"! So much for the great hardware > support... Yeah. The other problem is Linux is full of a bunch of UNIX newbies that think it's neEt and KewL to use. > >At least FreeBSD and other *BSDs are full-on 4.4 > >or even try to adhere to industry standards. > IMO Unix is a monster OS and not very suitable for the simple single > user, but as a server it surely is more stable than NT. I've had them be equally stable even under heavy load. FreeBSD surely performs better, though - more bang for processor buck. > I knew I took a look at it but I forgot what system the Synthcom server > runs on. Was it Linux or FreeBSD? FreeBSD. Of course. ;-) I've been running FreeBSD on it since 386bsd days and it's the only OS that has *NEVER* crashed on me. I went away for 3 weeks one time and Synthcom was still up when I got back. My longest uptime is around 8 months and I also have a friend who has had his up for over 4 years (UPS Backed). It's one of those things where you're not wanting to bring the machine down for the bummer of having your uptime reset. ;-( -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Mar 28 22:44:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA47314 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:44:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E1A465.86B96C40@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:36:21 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > >No, but it's not exclusively a CISC, either. If someone asks me if the > > >Pentium is a RISC or CISC CPU, my response is always "RISC > > >Microarchitecture, CISC instruction set". > > That's a statement I can accept ;-) > > I figured we were saying the same thing. I'm glad Mike came around to my way of thinking. Welcome to the dark side of the force. ;) In actual fact, the correct term for this architecture is "Hybrid". So, in fact, the P5 is a hybrid processor. > > >Even the Pentium's microarchitecture is partially programmable. > > Really? That's interesting. Do you know any details? > > Yes, but it's Intel secret and I'd have to kill you. That seems fair. If you tell him on the list, we'll all ignore that message, you can kill him and no-one else would know. ;) > > >I wouldn't say far... but it still has a few instructions that are > > >register specific. > > Then it would be better not to tell you that Thumb and MIPS16 have PUSH > > /POP instructions with a hard-wired stack pointer... > > But I think everything runs that way. The 68K, PPC, Sparc, and 34010 all > seem to do that. I like people against the x86 chipset. "But you haven't got a hardware stack!" they cry. "Yes, but then I can increase the size of my stack whenever I want to" is my reply. A hardware stack is nice and fast, but Intel could never go for one now. Unless it's a rather large one. So many programs use the stack and quite a few have a large stack that it could be quite difficult... > > Indeed, I especially don't understand the hype because it certainly > > isn't the answer to all questions. > > It's barely an answer at all, in my opinion. Agreed. I use Linux occasionally when I want to know how to do something in Solaris - I have to use it here at work. Haven't got BSD, else I'd use that. Whatever, there's no point me swapping to either BSD or Solaris because of the new hardware I always seem to have - it only gets supported about 2 years after I've had it. And by that time, I've got something else which also isn't supported... :-/ I could, of course, support it myself. But I'm not going to. :) > > In a magazine they had a comparison of OSs where they wrote that Linux > > supports more hardware than BeOS, which is perferctly right since the > > Linux community is quite big and there are several good programmers who > > write new drivers and BeOS only has a few dozen employees who write new > > drivers. > > What BeOS does support it supports very well. What Linux supports it's > so-so across the board. While BeOS may not have the support that Linux does, it does have more up-to-date drivers. Which is more than can be said for Linux. After all, BeOS is a multimedia OS - that's what it's aimed at. People need to have modern hardware for that... > > But on the other hand my sound card works with BeOS but not > > with Linux, and every time when I ask someone they just answer "I > > haven't even tried to get it working"! So much for the great hardware > > support... > > Yeah. The other problem is Linux is full of a bunch of UNIX newbies that > think it's neEt and KewL to use. W04H, L1nuX 15 l33t d00d. 1 4m s0 k3wl 1t HuRt5. Christ, that's difficult to do. :) > > >At least FreeBSD and other *BSDs are full-on 4.4 > > >or even try to adhere to industry standards. > > IMO Unix is a monster OS and not very suitable for the simple single > > user, but as a server it surely is more stable than NT. > > I've had them be equally stable even under heavy load. FreeBSD surely > performs better, though - more bang for processor buck. I've never used it - never had a copy. Could be interesting for a play, though I'm not going to use it as my main OS. > > I knew I took a look at it but I forgot what system the Synthcom server > > runs on. Was it Linux or FreeBSD? > > FreeBSD. Of course. ;-) I've been running FreeBSD on it since 386bsd days > and it's the only OS that has *NEVER* crashed on me. I went away for 3 > weeks one time and Synthcom was still up when I got back. My longest > uptime is around 8 months and I also have a friend who has had his up for > over 4 years (UPS Backed). It's one of those things where you're not > wanting to bring the machine down for the bummer of having your uptime > reset. ;-( Heh: "Do you want this in your kernel or as an object?" "Object, please" "Tough, it's going in your kernel. You have to restart. Hahaha!" Oh, erm... And what is it about Windows '9X while I think about it. That question "Do you want to restart Windows?" really bugs me. NO! I do *NOT* want to restart Windows! And then, to make it worse, you click "Yes" and it does restart Windows. But only after restarting your machine. AAARRGGHHH! It doesn't need to reset the machine! That's my main problem with Windows '9X. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 00:15:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA47526 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:15:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E1B9B7.54DE279E@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:07:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Depends. Architecture means "design of processor" or "organization of > >processor hardware". > > Then I seem to be used to the first interpretation. So it's RISC then. The design of the processor is RISC, it just has a translator in there for good measure. > >Key words: *FOR YOU*. I wouldn't call a Pentium a RISC CPU. That'd be > >misleading. But the Pentium is a RISC CPU at the basic level, > emulating a > >CISC instruction set. > > Ok, so we could agreen on the fact that the Pentium has a RISC core > which doesn't shine through though and therefore the whole package is > not a RISC processor. No, it's a hybrid processor. But you've changed your tune now - you're now conceding that it does use RISC. You wouldn't say that before! ;) > >You can reprogram the Crusoe to emulate any CPU type and not know the > >difference. > > If you can get enough information about Crusoe's real architecture, > which I was unable to get so far. Transmeta doesn't seem to be > interested in someone knowing what's under the code morpher, they only > want to sell a x86 compatible processor so it's a basically a x86 clone > for me. Whether it's a x86 clone to you or not, that doesn't mean that technically it's an x86 clone. > >It's still a RISC CPU. > > Actually it's a VLIW architecture ;-) Maybe, but how are you going to define what RISC is now? It means "Reduced Instruction Set Computing" (though I prefer "Chip") and so any processor with a reduced instruction set must be RISC. ;) And how do you define what has a reduced instruction set? Can I remove one instruction from a processor and claim that it's RISC? ;) > >I think we're saying the same thing. Calling a Pentium an outright > > RISC CPU is misleading and not quite the whole story. But it's not totally > >CISC, either. > > Yeah, we've reached an agreement here. Good. The Neils win the argument! ;)) > But there are also RISC processors with some CISC features. To see what > I mean you could take a look at my document about the ARM in comparison > to other architectures (RISC and CISC) which is still WIP: > http://www.linguistik.uni-erlangen.de/~mlkoenig/ArchARM.html I did a short (3 months) research project on RISC and CISC which is when I discovered about the P5 being a hybrid. I didn't know that before - Intel didn't make a big thing of it. In fact, I told several computing friends and they wouldn't believe me until I showed them my research. I wonder how many people know this? I don't think it's too many, to be honest. > >Just like "Security" and "Linux" - other meaningless buzzwords. ;-) > > Too true! I guess in the future we'll have to refer to certain Linux > systems by the name of the distributor because they will be totally > incompatible to other "Linux" systems. So long as they retain the same kernel, most things should remain. But if programs become dependent upon parts of a certain distribution, then they'll become incompatible. We'll see. Whatever, I don't like Linux too much at the moment. The error messages are a load of crap - as is the documentation. It's getting better, but it's not brilliant. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 01:23:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA47613 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:23:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003290914.LAA01447@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Memory Cache In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 28, 2000 11:34:49 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:14:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Ok, now something more about caches... > > First of all a cache isn't just a pool of 256k memory or so which is > fast and can cache often used memory locations. To really work it needs > an organisation. > I know this :) > I have to admit that I need a bit more facts on the Pentium caches > (number of entries, size of cache line, virtually or physically > indexed) for a real discussion about that topic, but I thought we some > might need more information about cache operation first. > But unless we want a very complet discussion about cache usage we didn't need to considerer all about cache operation. And then will be better to do some tests with a software as Tune(Intel) or other that it uses Pentium probe registers. Then we could see how is really working the emulator. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 01:32:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA47632 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003290930.LAA02355@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E1B9B7.54DE279E@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 29, 2000 10:07:19 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:30:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > >Depends. Architecture means "design of processor" or "organization of > > >processor hardware". > > > > Then I seem to be used to the first interpretation. > > So it's RISC then. The design of the processor is RISC, it just has a > translator in there for good measure. > > I think this RISC/CISC discussion is like the dynamic recompilation/dynamic translation or whatever discussion. You talk about the same: how really works the different CPUs. But you are using different names for it, and you are discussing about which is the better name. I think is more important to know how works something than how someone (or someother) calls it. Pentium an P-II are internally RISC CPUs but their instruction set are CISC, this is all for me. You can name them RISC or CISC but this don't change what they are. And I think RISC and CISC are now outdated terms. They have some sense when they were created and where they were created (last 80s and in an university-theorical level) but nowadays and in real architectures they are mixed. You can't say a CPU with vectorial instruction (as SIMD and MMX) is RISC if you use the real definition of RISC, but in fact they have a lot of things from RISC too. Ummm, this are my thoughts. I hope I don't ofense someone. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 02:23:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA47922 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:23:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:23:55 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Graphics theories Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Here's a 2D graphics methodology with built in optimizing and dirty regioning, making it braindead simple for the programmer to deal with flat 2D hardware in a 2D hardware-assist style mode. It's not complete, but it should give an idea of what I'm thinking. It'll also make the document better based upon your questions and feedback. Let me know what you think: ------------------------ This document describes an approach to doing multilayered graphics on a flat 2D system, including dirty buffering. With any video game or other graphics intensive program using multiple layers of graphics (such as a backdrop graphic, a sprite, and a tile), the author is faced with the challenge of figuring out how to combine them on a single 2 dimensional surface for quick play. A common method is to draw all surfaces on separate surfaces and then combine them to a single surface, which is blitted to the final destination. This has several disadvantages: * Each surface must be erased and redrawn every frame * Memory consumption is greatly increased by the separate surfaces * Combining them onto a common surface takes considerable CPU time * More system cache is used, harming overall app performance The approach I'm proposing gives several advantages: * Everything is drawn to a common surface * Priorities are handled by virtue of the definition of the various layers * Handles viewport management so that scrolling regions and views can take advantage of the dirty buffering * The game logic itself isn't required to know what is in need of being redrawn * Only affected regions are redrawn * Only affected regions are blitted to the final destination surface * Takes up far less memory than surface combining * Makes adding in new types of graphics layer handlers easy, orthogonal, and immediately take advantage of the dirty buffering. THE BASIC CONCEPT ----------------- Let's first start with some terminology: Backbuffer - An in-memory (usually system memory and not video card) buffer that comprises the entirety of all surfaces, displayed or not. Viewport - The displayed region of a backbuffer. Backbuffers can be much larger than the viewport actually shows. Tile - Any "chunk" of graphics - rectangular or square in shape that is based on a character, such as any alphanumeric graphics, that is used on a grid (32X32 matrix) and is bound to fixed positions. Sprite - Any "chunk" of graphics - rectangular or square in shape that is based on a picture that can have transparent aspects to it and can be placed at arbitrary positions throughout the screen. Backdrop - A large graphic that shows through any tile or sprite layer when no other layers are in front of it. Overlay - Large graphic that has transparencies or translucent properties that will obscure layers behind it. Dirty tile - A system that keeps track of all tiles that are touched by other objects (sprites, backdrops, etc...) that must be redrawn the next frame so they show up again. (Overdraw) Border - A region of pixels around a backbuffer. For example: +---------------+ | 2 | | +---------+ | | | | | |2 | 1 | 2| |2 | 1 | 2| | | | | | +---------+ | | 2 | +---------------+ So 1 would be the actual backbuffer surface and 2 would be the border. This is done so that when a sprite that's 32x32 is drawn in the lower right extreme of the backbuffer, the graphics routines don't need to clip the image to fit. The border is really a scratch region where overdraw of sprites and other goodies can occur. Active surface - Region 1 above. Anything *NOT* comprising the overdraw border - the active section of the backbuffer that is either displayed by the viewport or possibly displayable by the viewport. Dirty buffering - A system that keeps track of deltas between a prior frame and the current frame and blits ONLY the changes to the display device (a significant time savings). ------------------------- This approach also assumes that the overdraw area is a constant pixel width on both the X and Y axis. The overdraw area should be as large in pixels as the largest axis of any sprite that would be drawn to the active surface. This is so the sprite/tile/whatever can be drawn at any place on the active surface and the overdraw won't go beyond the memory region allocated and seriously corrupt things, or wrap around and clobber data on the opposite side of the backbuffer. Now that that's all said and done, here is an example backbuffer for a game that uses a 224x288 playfield area with a static viewport, with a 16 pixel border. This assumes that the pixel border is the same width all the way around the backbuffer viewport: +---------------+ | 2 | | +---------+ | | | | | |2 | 1 | 2| |2 | 1 | 2| | | | | | +---------+ | | 2 | +---------------+ 1=Active surface 2=Overdraw border And a definition for the graphical layers: struct sLayerDefinition sLayers[] = { {LAYER_TILE, 0, sTileDefs}, {LAYER_SPRITE, 0, sSpriteDefs}, {LAYER_EOL} }; First column is the type of layer it is, the second is the instance of the layer itself (I.E. are we doing tile layer 0 or 1?) and the third is a layer specific pointer that gives specific definition to aspects of that layer. For example, the sTileDefs might contain an offset mapping that will swizzle offsets in memory to X/Y coordinates on the backbuffer, or where the tiles will appear on the backbuffer (what X/Y coordinates). When the sprite layer draws a sprite, it makes a call up to the prior layer saying "dirty region x1/y1 - x2/y2" for the area of the sprite. The tile layer in turn "dirties" the tiles that it touches so they will be redrawn next frame. Remember, sprites are redrawn every frame. Using this approach, we can layer many layers, and each layer will figure out if it needs to pass dirty region information up to the prior layer. Each layer is responsible for being able to dirty itself (hehehehehe). It's a start. Comments? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 02:41:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA47950 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:41:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:41:09 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'm glad Mike came around to my way of thinking. Welcome to the dark side >of the force. ;) "You are only a Master of evil, Neil!" ;-) >In actual fact, the correct term for this architecture is "Hybrid". So, in >fact, the P5 is a hybrid processor. Let's say it's a hybrid design and the PPC has a hybrid instruction set. >That seems fair. If you tell him on the list, we'll all ignore that >message, you can kill him and no-one else would know. ;) Hey, what is this? Treachery against me? >While BeOS may not have the support that Linux does, it does have more >up-to-date drivers. Which is more than can be said for Linux. After all, >BeOS is a multimedia OS - that's what it's aimed at. People need to have >modern hardware for that... Yeah, I was surprised that BeOS 5 already has G400 drivers. But people are only mocking that it doesn't have GeForce drivers yet. Does Linux have these? No. BTW, BeOS 5 Pro will be the first OS with MP3 codecs, ie. you don't need a special MP3 player and you can load and save MP3 in any application that uses the media translators correctly. And it's also nice to have a CD burn application preinstalled. >"Do you want this in your kernel or as an object?" >"Object, please" >"Tough, it's going in your kernel. You have to restart. Hahaha!" Imagine this: I tried Quake 2 on BeOS and thought some hardware acceleration would be nice. So I copied the experimental library to a special directory, started Quake 2 one second later and it worked! This is how it should be. And when you change network settings the network services are simply restarted. About the only thing where you need to restart is when you change the application server, ie. the main graphics driver. These are the advantages of a microkernel OS. >And what is it about Windows '9X while I think about it. That question "Do >you want to restart Windows?" really bugs me. NO! I do *NOT* want to >restart Windows! And then, to make it worse, you click "Yes" and it does >restart Windows. But only after restarting your machine. AAARRGGHHH! It >doesn't need to reset the machine! >That's my main problem with Windows '9X. :) I think the main problem is the formulation: "Do you *want* to restart Windows now?" No, I surely don't *want* to do this but in most cases I have to. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 02:41:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA47957 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:41:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:27:37 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes, but it's Intel secret and I'd have to kill you. That would be ok ;-) >But I think everything runs that way. The 68K, PPC, Sparc, and 34010 all >seem to do that. On the other hand ARM, MIPS, Alpha, SPARC, etc can use any GPR as SP. BTW, I don't think that PPC has a hardware SP. >What BeOS does support it supports very well. What Linux supports it's >so-so across the board. True. >I've had them be equally stable even under heavy load. FreeBSD surely >performs better, though - more bang for processor buck. You surely didn't have a RAS connection. We once crashed NT that way. >FreeBSD. Of course. ;-) I answered the question to myself by taking a look at the Synthcom server... BTW, I always thought that the BSD devil is cuter than Tux anyway! ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 02:56:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA47990 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:56:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003291058.MAA03233@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 29, 2000 02:23:55 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:58:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Here's a 2D graphics methodology with built in optimizing and dirty > regioning, making it braindead simple for the programmer to deal with flat > 2D hardware in a 2D hardware-assist style mode. It's not complete, but it > should give an idea of what I'm thinking. It'll also make the document > better based upon your questions and feedback. Let me know what you think: > I don't know more than basis about 2D graphics systems so I can't really help. But I'm ready to learn a lot :) > > THE BASIC CONCEPT > ----------------- > > Let's first start with some terminology: > I understand all terminology. You explain really well :) > When the sprite layer draws a sprite, it makes a call up to the prior layer > saying "dirty region x1/y1 - x2/y2" for the area of the sprite. The tile > layer in turn "dirties" the tiles that it touches so they will be redrawn > next frame. Remember, sprites are redrawn every frame. > Depth traversal? ;) > Using this approach, we can layer many layers, and each layer will figure > out if it needs to pass dirty region information up to the prior layer. > Each layer is responsible for being able to dirty itself (hehehehehe). > So, when the program modifies a layer this layer is called and then this layer calls prior layer because of modifications and so on. A kind of cascade. What happens when the definition of a sprite changes? I don't know if this is possible, perhaps all sprites are ROMed. > It's a start. Comments? > > For me seems all correct. I think I will try this afternoon to learn a bit about 2D graphics by myself, to don't get lost. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 03:52:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA48069 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:52:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:51:44 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No, it's a hybrid processor. But you've changed your tune now - you're now >conceding that it does use RISC. You wouldn't say that before! ;) Sometimes a compromise is better than endless discussion... >Whether it's a x86 clone to you or not, that doesn't mean that technically >it's an x86 clone. It isn't really a x86 clone, but with having only a x86 code morpher and no information available about its real architecture it isn't much more either. >Maybe, but how are you going to define what RISC is now? It means "Reduced >Instruction Set Computing" (though I prefer "Chip") and so any processor >with a reduced instruction set must be RISC. ;) It's "Reduced Instruction Set Computer" and you don't have to take the term too literal because it's only one of the features that make a processor RISC. Some people really argumented that according to this term a 6502 would be RISC too. So here is what I think to be RISC: * Few instructions; this is a bit relative because PPC has a few hundred. * Simple instructions, most of these can be executed in one cycle by utilizing a pipeline. * Load/store architecture, ie. most instructions only operate on registers and immediates and special instructions are needed for memory access. * Large set of general purpose registers, at least 16. * Uniform instruction length, either 32-bit or 16-bit. A few rare ones, like TriCore or M32R, are able to mix two instruction formats. >And how do you define what has a reduced instruction set? Can I remove one >instruction from a processor and claim that it's RISC? ;) Well, compare the 6502 to the list above and you'll see that it is not RISC. You just take the term RISC too literal. As I already said I mainly take the original definition by David Patterson (Berkeley RISC) who invented that term. >I did a short (3 months) research project on RISC and CISC which is when I >discovered about the P5 being a hybrid. I didn't know that before - Intel >didn't make a big thing of it. In fact, I told several computing friends >and they wouldn't believe me until I showed them my research. I wonder how >many people know this? I don't think it's too many, to be honest. I already knew that some time ago... During my research I analysed over a dozen RISC and CISC architectures. I think I have information on many RISC processors you never heard of. >So long as they retain the same kernel, most things should remain. But if >programs become dependent upon parts of a certain distribution, then >they'll become incompatible. We'll see. Whatever, I don't like Linux too >much at the moment. The error messages are a load of crap - as is the >documentation. It's getting better, but it's not brilliant. But I think many distributors adjust the kernel. Also the whole directory structure is different for each distribution, which means that you need a software package for your distribution because the package of another distribution won't install correctly. This isn't what I call compatible! Just one little example: the directory where the link to the X server is created can differ: SuSE: /var/X11R6/bin/X RedHat: /etc/X In my opinion RedHat is better since /etc is where also other configuration files like fstab go. I wonder why SuSE decided to put it into /var/... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 04:29:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA48134 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:28:40 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The approach I'm proposing gives several advantages: >* Everything is drawn to a common surface Less memory used and acts more like a real video buffer. >* Priorities are handled by virtue of the definition of the various layers Nice concept. >* Handles viewport management so that scrolling regions and views can take > advantage of the dirty buffering What about a strongly scrolling game like Sonic? In that case you'll end up with the whole screen being dirty and you still have to redraw everything? Wait! I think I begin to understand your concept. You just replace the viewport on the backbuffer and redraw the sprite positions. I think the ideal way would be if this technique would be adjusted to the largest layer and not to the layer in the back which normally only displays some mountains being scrolled a bit slower in a small portion of the screen to get a pseudo 3D effect. >* Only affected regions are redrawn That's how it should be, isn't it? >* Only affected regions are blitted to the final destination surface I guess by destination surface you mean the video buffer of the host system. >(Overdraw) Border - A region of pixels around a backbuffer. If I understand it correctly than this is a way to spare a special clipping function without having to fear about memory leaks. Neat! >And a definition for the graphical layers: >struct sLayerDefinition sLayers[] >{ > {LAYER_TILE, 0, sTileDefs}, > {LAYER_SPRITE, 0, sSpriteDefs}, > {LAYER_EOL} >}; >When the sprite layer draws a sprite, it makes a call up to the prior layer >saying "dirty region x1/y1 - x2/y2" for the area of the sprite. The tile >layer in turn "dirties" the tiles that it touches so they will be redrawn >next frame. Remember, sprites are redrawn every frame. Ok, let me just see if I get your idea. You start to redraw at the layer in the front which then passes the changed regions to the underlying layer which again passes the changed regions (including those changed by that layer) to the next one and so on. Sounds pretty neat to me, but I'm surely not a graphics expert. What would be interesting to me is according to which layer you move the viewport. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 09:16:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA48933 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:16:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E21327.F88BA257@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:28:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <200003290930.LAA02355@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > > Then I seem to be used to the first interpretation. > > > > So it's RISC then. The design of the processor is RISC, it just has a > > translator in there for good measure. > > > > I think this RISC/CISC discussion is like the dynamic recompilation/dynamic > translation or whatever discussion. You talk about the same: how really works > the different CPUs. But you are using different names for it, and you are > discussing about which is the better name. I think is more important to know > how works something than how someone (or someother) calls it. Of course. In actual fact I meant to put a smilie there, but I forgot. And then I was going to reply to my reply to say there should be a smilie there, but I thought that would be strange. So I didn't. :) > Pentium an P-II are internally RISC CPUs but their instruction set are CISC, > this is all for me. You can name them RISC or CISC but this don't change what > they are. Hybrid! ;) > Ummm, this are my thoughts. I hope I don't ofense someone. Grr! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 11:17:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA49441 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:17:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:17:40 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories In-Reply-To: <200003291058.MAA03233@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > saying "dirty region x1/y1 - x2/y2" for the area of the sprite. The tile > > layer in turn "dirties" the tiles that it touches so they will be redrawn > > next frame. Remember, sprites are redrawn every frame. > Depth traversal? ;) Heh. Not really. Depth traversal sorta requires that you call yourself with a pointer to the next place you go. In this case you've only got to dirty the stuff underneath you. > > Using this approach, we can layer many layers, and each layer will figure > > out if it needs to pass dirty region information up to the prior layer. > > Each layer is responsible for being able to dirty itself (hehehehehe). > So, when the program modifies a layer this layer is called and then > this layer calls prior layer because of modifications and so on. A Correct. And each layer knows how to dirty a region for itself. > kind of cascade. What happens when the definition of a sprite changes? Do you mean the size or the color? In either case, sprites are redrawn every frame anyway, and if its size or color changes then it falls out by redrawing and dirtying the layers below it. > > It's a start. Comments? > For me seems all correct. I think I will try this afternoon to learn > a bit about 2D graphics by myself, to don't get lost. Wait until I get to the hardware blitting aspect of things. It keeps a dirty buffer list so it knows exactly what to blit. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 11:23:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA49457 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:23:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:23:22 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > What about a strongly scrolling game like Sonic? In that case you'll > end up with the whole screen being dirty and you still have to redraw > everything? Yeah. You're kinda screwed. You'll have to blit the entire thing to the display device. But also think about even when it's scrolling, not every frame is a change in scroll position. When the viewport position changes, you'll have to reblit the entire screen anyway (to the video card that is), but if it doesn't change, then the graphics routines will just blit the stuff that has changed. > Wait! > I think I begin to understand your concept. You just replace the > viewport on the backbuffer and redraw the sprite positions. The sprite positions and whatnot are still drawn to the overall backbuffer. The only thing you change is the viewport. > I think the ideal way would be if this technique would be adjusted to > the largest layer and not to the layer in the back which normally only > displays some mountains being scrolled a bit slower in a small portion > of the screen to get a pseudo 3D effect. Even with the Genesis, there's a bit of an overdraw region and it has a backbuffer that's much larger than the viewport. > >* Only affected regions are redrawn > That's how it should be, isn't it? Yes, but you'll find a lot of publicly released emulators are NOT this way. > >* Only affected regions are blitted to the final destination surface > I guess by destination surface you mean the video buffer of the host > system. Correct. The reason I didn't say "video buffer" is that it might go through yet another memory region (OS anyone?). > >(Overdraw) Border - A region of pixels around a backbuffer. > If I understand it correctly than this is a way to spare a special > clipping function without having to fear about memory leaks. Neat! Or more importantly, memory corruption, yes. > >struct sLayerDefinition sLayers[] >{ > > {LAYER_TILE, 0, sTileDefs}, > > {LAYER_SPRITE, 0, sSpriteDefs}, > > {LAYER_EOL} > >}; > >When the sprite layer draws a sprite, it makes a call up to the prior > >saying "dirty region x1/y1 - x2/y2" for the area of the sprite. The > >layer in turn "dirties" the tiles that it touches so they will be > >next frame. Remember, sprites are redrawn every frame. > Ok, let me just see if I get your idea. You start to redraw at the > layer in the front which then passes the changed regions to the Actually, you start at the lowest layer (LAYER_TILE in this case) and work your way toward the front. > underlying layer which again passes the changed regions (including > those changed by that layer) to the next one and so on. Correct. > Sounds pretty neat to me, but I'm surely not a graphics expert. > What would be interesting to me is according to which layer you move > the viewport. It all winds up being one backbuffer surface anyway, even if you have 10 scrolling layers. They all get drawn to a common place, and your viewport would be just a view into the backbuffer. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 12:02:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA49667 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:02:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <007701bf99b9$407e9420$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:56:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > "You are only a Master of evil, Neil!" ;-) "Strong is the power of the dark, yeees". :) > >In actual fact, the correct term for this architecture is "Hybrid". > So, in > >fact, the P5 is a hybrid processor. > > Let's say it's a hybrid design and the PPC has a hybrid instruction > set. No: in fact the official term is "Hybrid". So the P5 is, in fact, a hybrid processor. Don't know about the PPC, though. I wasn't arguing that point. :) > >That seems fair. If you tell him on the list, we'll all ignore that > >message, you can kill him and no-one else would know. ;) > > Hey, what is this? Treachery against me? No, not at all. I just reckon that unless they've perfected the e-mail bomb (it actually harms humans now) that you're safe. NB is, after all, several thousand miles away from you. ;) > Yeah, I was surprised that BeOS 5 already has G400 drivers. But people > are only mocking that it doesn't have GeForce drivers yet. Does Linux > have these? No. I want ViperII support in either. Mainly because I have a ViperII. :) > BTW, BeOS 5 Pro will be the first OS with MP3 codecs, ie. you don't > need a special MP3 player and you can load and save MP3 in any > application that uses the media translators correctly. And it's also > nice to have a CD burn application preinstalled. You've been able to do that in Win '9X for ages - though it wasn't part of Win '95. The MP3 encoding thing, I mean. The CD burn application is nice, though that does come with Linux. And *BSD too, AFAIK. > Imagine this: I tried Quake 2 on BeOS and thought some hardware > acceleration would be nice. So I copied the experimental library to a > special directory, started Quake 2 one second later and it worked! This > is how it should be. Indeed. And so long as you don't get a BSOD when (if!) it crashes, I'll be happy. > And when you change network settings the network services are simply > restarted. About the only thing where you need to restart is when you > change the application server, ie. the main graphics driver. > These are the advantages of a microkernel OS. Yes, this is why I like this design. > I think the main problem is the formulation: "Do you *want* to restart > Windows now?" > No, I surely don't *want* to do this but in most cases I have to. That was my whole point exactly. I hate that phrase. A better phrase would be "No, you *HAVE* to restart Windows - but do you want to do it now or not?". :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 14:37:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50335 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:37:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:11:49 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yeah. You're kinda screwed. Very likely, my knowledge about graphics is... limited. >You'll have to blit the entire thing to the >display device. But also think about even when it's scrolling, not every >frame is a change in scroll position. When the viewport position changes, >you'll have to reblit the entire screen anyway (to the video card that >is), but if it doesn't change, then the graphics routines will just blit >the stuff that has changed. Oops, forgot the last step of finally making everything visable... >The sprite positions and whatnot are still drawn to the overall >backbuffer. The only thing you change is the viewport. Yeah, that's what I meant, but I had the wrong order. Surely the sprites have to be redrawn before the viewport is set. >Even with the Genesis, there's a bit of an overdraw region and it has a >backbuffer that's much larger than the viewport. Have to take a look at the Generator docs again... >Actually, you start at the lowest layer (LAYER_TILE in this case) and work >your way toward the front. So you pass the dirty regions from front to back and then redraw everything from back to front? >It all winds up being one backbuffer surface anyway, even if you have 10 >scrolling layers. They all get drawn to a common place, and your viewport >would be just a view into the backbuffer. You surely know more about the topic than me. Thank God that the topic isn't sound emulation or I'll go totally nuts... BTW, I think graphical enhancements like Eagle could be optionally applied during the transfer from the viewport to the surface display. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 14:38:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50343 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:22:29 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >"Strong is the power of the dark, yeees". :) Why do all dark power uses die then? ;-) >No: in fact the official term is "Hybrid". So the P5 is, in fact, a hybrid >processor. Is that as official as CRISP? ;-) >Don't know about the PPC, though. I wasn't arguing that point. :) Some parts of the PPC are nice, others are just weird! For emulators it could be nice because you have intructions to load and store data byte- reversed ;-) >No, not at all. I just reckon that unless they've perfected the e-mail bomb >(it actually harms humans now) that you're safe. NB is, after all, several >thousand miles away from you. ;) Aha, I hope the email bomb doesn't work with BeMail ;-) >I want ViperII support in either. Mainly because I have a ViperII. :) Tell Be... >You've been able to do that in Win '9X for ages - though it wasn't part of >Win '95. The MP3 encoding thing, I mean. But it certainly didn't work like the BeOS media translators where every application that makes correct use of the translators can load and store any format you have a translator for! >The CD burn application is nice, though that does come with Linux. And *BSD >too, AFAIK. Linux surely has one. >Indeed. And so long as you don't get a BSOD when (if!) it crashes, I'll be >happy. I read that they added the WSOD to BeOS 5, but it's interactive. Anyway you won't see it that often. >That was my whole point exactly. I hate that phrase. A better phrase would >be "No, you *HAVE* to restart Windows - but do you want to do it now or >not?". :) Hehe. Even better is the translated shutdown message. I think the original says something like "It's now safe to turn the computer off." The German translation says: "You can switch off the computer now." What do they know about what I can or cannot do? They also could have written: "You can throw the computer out of the window now." I guess the computer market would have increased sales then ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 22:38:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA51880 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:38:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:38:26 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Yeah. You're kinda screwed. > Very likely, my knowledge about graphics is... limited. Actually, I was referring to when you have to scroll the whole screen - there's nothing you can do other than just blit the whole thing. Not that you were screwed personally. ;-) > >frame is a change in scroll position. When the viewport position > >you'll have to reblit the entire screen anyway (to the video card that > >is), but if it doesn't change, then the graphics routines will just > >the stuff that has changed. > Oops, forgot the last step of finally making everything visable... Yeah. Just creating it in memory might be faster, but getting to see it is even better! > >The sprite positions and whatnot are still drawn to the overall > >backbuffer. The only thing you change is the viewport. > Yeah, that's what I meant, but I had the wrong order. Surely the > sprites have to be redrawn before the viewport is set. I would say it depends. Some sprites in games (like Toobin' for example) can have their sprites relative to the viewport and some relative to the entire backbuffer. So I'd leave that up to the individual layer. > >Actually, you start at the lowest layer (LAYER_TILE in this case) and > >your way toward the front. > So you pass the dirty regions from front to back and then redraw > everything from back to front? Sort - As each layer is drawn, it "dirties" the layer beneath it if it affects it so that the layer redraws it the next frame. > >It all winds up being one backbuffer surface anyway, even if you have > >scrolling layers. They all get drawn to a common place, and your > >would be just a view into the backbuffer. > You surely know more about the topic than me. I've had a bit of experience... ;-( > Thank God that the topic isn't sound emulation or I'll go totally > nuts... I've had a bit of experience with that, too - even moreso than graphics! > BTW, I think graphical enhancements like Eagle could be optionally > applied during the transfer from the viewport to the surface display. Easily. You can also do weird effects like scanlining and pixel stretching at that level, too. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 22:42:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA51894 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:42:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E2F601.7E06BA07@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:36:49 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >"Strong is the power of the dark, yeees". :) > > Why do all dark power uses die then? ;-) As a Star Wars fan, you should know that there were only 2 Jedi Knights left in Episode IV. It appears that users of the light die easily too. ;) > >No: in fact the official term is "Hybrid". So the P5 is, in fact, a > hybrid > >processor. > > Is that as official as CRISP? ;-) I don't know. ;) CRISP surely isn't an official term. Hybrid is though. > >Don't know about the PPC, though. I wasn't arguing that point. :) > > Some parts of the PPC are nice, others are just weird! For emulators it > could be nice because you have intructions to load and store data byte- > reversed ;-) Do you mean endian reversed, or actually full reversal - so that instead of storage going from 0000 to FFFF, it goes from FFFF to 0000? > >No, not at all. I just reckon that unless they've perfected the e-mail > bomb > >(it actually harms humans now) that you're safe. NB is, after all, > several > >thousand miles away from you. ;) > > Aha, I hope the email bomb doesn't work with BeMail ;-) Ooh, I don't know. Maybe it supports the "Monitor blowing up(tm) protocol". Let's hope not, hey? ;) > >I want ViperII support in either. Mainly because I have a ViperII. :) > > Tell Be... Might do at that. I could also take the piss and ask for support for crap chipsets like "my SiS 6326" or... no, just the SiS 6326. Or any other chipset that SiS (also known as PC Chips) create. :) Which reminds me, I've GOT to do a pisstake website for the 6326. I've come up with a logo just now: "All the graphics ability of a... TNT! All the speed of a... 286. And a slow 286 at that!". :) > >You've been able to do that in Win '9X for ages - though it wasn't > part of > >Win '95. The MP3 encoding thing, I mean. > > But it certainly didn't work like the BeOS media translators where > every application that makes correct use of the translators can load > and store any format you have a translator for! It did, actually. Any program that used the Win '95 sound codecs (that'll be all the normal ones - I haven't seen one that didn't) could load and save from and into MP3 files. > >The CD burn application is nice, though that does come with Linux. And > *BSD > >too, AFAIK. > > Linux surely has one. Yes, it does. It's crap, mind, but it does have one. :) > >Indeed. And so long as you don't get a BSOD when (if!) it crashes, > I'll be > >happy. > > I read that they added the WSOD to BeOS 5, but it's interactive. Anyway > you won't see it that often. "Place your bets, please". I surely can make it crash a lot. :) > Even better is the translated shutdown message. I think the original > says something like "It's now safe to turn the computer off." The > German translation says: "You can switch off the computer now." What do > they know about what I can or cannot do? They also could have written: > "You can throw the computer out of the window now." I guess the > computer market would have increased sales then ;-) Maybe Win2K says that. After all, they'll be wanting to sell the X-Box, won't they? :) I don't actually know what it says. I've got an ATX mobo and PSU and so my computer turns off before that message appears... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 23:20:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA51957 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:20:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E2FF47.730E464@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:16:23 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Actually, I was referring to when you have to scroll the whole screen - > there's nothing you can do other than just blit the whole thing. Not that > you were screwed personally. ;-) And apart from you saying that the scrolling doesn't occur every frame, you can also take parallax into account. In that case you may find that the background doesn't move much at all. And even in Sonic, you're not always scrolling. There's not a hell of a lot you can do when scrolling. You could try some clever techniques such as buffering what you've just seen (erm... you're scrolling right to left, so you remember what was on the left side of the screen) which will speed up if you were to change directions. Otherwise I can't think of much that would speed up this process. Well, you could always not display it. That'd keep the speed up. :) > Yeah. Just creating it in memory might be faster, but getting to see it is > even better! Ooh, I don't know. Just think what you could be doing with those extra clock cycles! ;) > I would say it depends. Some sprites in games (like Toobin' for example) > can have their sprites relative to the viewport and some relative to the > entire backbuffer. So I'd leave that up to the individual layer. Ah, is that way Toobin' took so long to emulate and to get right? > > You surely know more about the topic than me. > > I've had a bit of experience... ;-( I've had a fair bit as well, though not as much on the PC as you probably have. I was going to add some comments to this last night, but I fell asleep instead which is a really bad plan when you're sitting up. Arse! I'm just glad I disconnected from the 'net first! > > Thank God that the topic isn't sound emulation or I'll go totally > > nuts... > > I've had a bit of experience with that, too - even moreso than graphics! This is where I've had little experience on the PC. > > BTW, I think graphical enhancements like Eagle could be optionally > > applied during the transfer from the viewport to the surface display. > > Easily. You can also do weird effects like scanlining and pixel stretching > at that level, too. Does anyone here actually like Eagle, BTW? I know that I don't. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 23:27:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA51982 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:27:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:27:53 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories In-Reply-To: <38E2FF47.730E464@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > there's nothing you can do other than just blit the whole thing. Not that > > you were screwed personally. ;-) > And apart from you saying that the scrolling doesn't occur every frame, you > can also take parallax into account. In that case you may find that the > background doesn't move much at all. And even in Sonic, you're not always > scrolling. A bit more clarification: Scrolling doesn't *ALWAYS* occur every frame... > There's not a hell of a lot you can do when scrolling. You could try some > clever techniques such as buffering what you've just seen (erm... you're And those wind up just taking longer than blitting the whole thing anyway. > > can have their sprites relative to the viewport and some relative to the > > entire backbuffer. So I'd leave that up to the individual layer. > Ah, is that way Toobin' took so long to emulate and to get right? Did it take so long to emulate and get right? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 23:40:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA52014 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E303FA.85FAD2D3@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:36:27 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > And apart from you saying that the scrolling doesn't occur every frame, you > > can also take parallax into account. In that case you may find that the > > background doesn't move much at all. And even in Sonic, you're not always > > scrolling. > > A bit more clarification: Scrolling doesn't *ALWAYS* occur every frame... Sorry, yes. I meant that, but I didn't write it. My bad. :) > > There's not a hell of a lot you can do when scrolling. You could try some > > clever techniques such as buffering what you've just seen (erm... you're > > And those wind up just taking longer than blitting the whole thing anyway. I imagine so, yes. When you write to the screen, do you always use DWORDS or something else? > > Ah, is that way Toobin' took so long to emulate and to get right? > > Did it take so long to emulate and get right? You got it before the MAME team did, IIRC. I remember they had problems getting it to display properly. And I seem to remember even now seeing some graphics glitches, though whether they're from the original I just don't know... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 23:46:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA52091 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:16:44 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Actually, I was referring to when you have to scroll the whole screen - >there's nothing you can do other than just blit the whole thing. Not that >you were screwed personally. ;-) Heh, but I guess it would be true as well ;-) >Yeah. Just creating it in memory might be faster, but getting to see it is >even better! Why? You could market it as "increased challange" ;-) >I would say it depends. Some sprites in games (like Toobin' for example) >can have their sprites relative to the viewport and some relative to the >entire backbuffer. So I'd leave that up to the individual layer. It seems I really need to learn more about the topic... >Sort - As each layer is drawn, it "dirties" the layer beneath it if it >affects it so that the layer redraws it the next frame. The redraw is done in the next frame? Won't that make a difference? >I've had a bit of experience... ;-( It seems you also had negative experience... >> Thank God that the topic isn't sound emulation or I'll go totally >> nuts... >I've had a bit of experience with that, too - even moreso than graphics! For sound it seems that I enjoy produced sounds so much that I find the theory too boring to understand much. One of my friends was surprised that I knew of ADSR but that's about it... >Easily. You can also do weird effects like scanlining and pixel stretching >at that level, too. And if it's done correctly you still only have to do it for the modified portions ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Mar 29 23:46:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA52098 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:32:41 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >As a Star Wars fan, you should know that there were only 2 Jedi Knights >left in Episode IV. It appears that users of the light die easily too. ;) That was because they were hunted down... Also you have to note that Yoda didn't consider Leia. Maybe Luke was just the only one powerful enough to stand the threat... BTW, did you know that Palpatine comes back 7 years after the Battle of Endor? ;-) >Do you mean endian reversed, or actually full reversal - so that instead of >storage going from 0000 to FFFF, it goes from FFFF to 0000? IBM calls it byte reversed but it's actually endian conversion. They have a good hand for weird names: RLWNM - Rotate Left Word then AND with Mask EIEIO - Enforce In-order Execution of I/O, surely invented by a farmer called McDonald! >Ooh, I don't know. Maybe it supports the "Monitor blowing up(tm) protocol". >Let's hope not, hey? ;) I bet it won't work on RISC OS! ;-) BTW, you could blow up a colour monitor on a ST. There was some way to switch off the emergency reset when the frequency was too high, then switch to 70Hz and see how long the monitor lives... >It did, actually. Any program that used the Win '95 sound codecs (that'll >be all the normal ones - I haven't seen one that didn't) could load and >save from and into MP3 files. Didn't know that Windows is this flexible... >Yes, it does. It's crap, mind, but it does have one. :) Haven't tried it yet. >"Place your bets, please". >I surely can make it crash a lot. :) I don't bet, at least not money. >Maybe Win2K says that. After all, they'll be wanting to sell the X- Box, >won't they? :) Hehe. And you would still be able to tell most customers that this is normal! I noticed that PC customers accept lots of quirks that no other computer user would have accepted some years ago. One of my friends bought a notebook recently. When a program crashed he did a reboot, but instead of starting up it just turned the screen on and off all the time and it didn't switch off until he took the batteries out. He really believed that to be normal and due to the crash of the program before!!! >I don't actually know what it says. I've got an ATX mobo and PSU and so my >computer turns off before that message appears... I know that from Win95 running on my PC card. And you also see it in Windows NT. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 00:19:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52172 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E30D16.2EA8B032@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:15:18 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > >As a Star Wars fan, you should know that there were only 2 Jedi > Knights > >left in Episode IV. It appears that users of the light die easily too. > ;) > > That was because they were hunted down... > Also you have to note that Yoda didn't consider Leia. Maybe Luke was > just the only one powerful enough to stand the threat... > BTW, did you know that Palpatine comes back 7 years after the Battle of > Endor? ;-) > Something about dies and Star Wars. Today I was talking about Episode I with a friend and he said there is a web page called something like 'Jar-Jar must die'. Do you know about this? What do you think about this 'thing' called Jar-Jar? I don´t know the web direction but he said me there is a section about manners of kill it but ever 'at the start of the movie' ;) BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie of the saga. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 00:23:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52185 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E30E6F.EEB47838@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:21:03 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories References: <38E2FF47.730E464@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > Does anyone here actually like Eagle, BTW? I know that I don't. :) > Eagle? What is it Eagle? A bird ;) I usually don´t like this kind of 'effects'. About Graphics Theories. How are priorities handled in the NB model? For example Genesis (from Generator doc): has a background, scroll B, scroll A and sprite layer. Each has a priority bit so finally how is shown a picture is: background scroll B prio 0 scroll A prio 0 sprite prio 0 scroll B prio 1 scroll A prio 1 sprite prio 1 Perhaps this could be done having a different layer for each priority so the structure for layers would be something like this: {background, layer_scroll_b_0, layer_scroll_a_0, layer_sprite_0, layer_scroll_b_1, layer_scroll_a_1, layer_sprite_1} Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 00:39:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52218 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:39:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E311E5.8F34A05C@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:35:49 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > > >* Only affected regions are redrawn > > That's how it should be, isn't it? > > Yes, but you'll find a lot of publicly released emulators are NOT this > way. > Yes ; ) And because of this is why some emulators run nicely a game on a old PC and other just don´t run in the last P-7000. One example I got long ago was Dave Spicer´s Arcade emulator (Sparcade). All games runned well on my old 486 but others emulators didn´t run properly games like SI or Pacman, too slow !!. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 00:40:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52230 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:40:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E311C7.C82BB227@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:35:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >As a Star Wars fan, you should know that there were only 2 Jedi > Knights > >left in Episode IV. It appears that users of the light die easily too. > ;) > > That was because they were hunted down... No idea, I haven't read any of the books (that the films are based on or whatever) so I don't know the story - other than what I've seen in the films. I like the sage, but I read one of the books once and it was crap. Terrible writing. So I didn't bother with any others. > Also you have to note that Yoda didn't consider Leia. Maybe Luke was > just the only one powerful enough to stand the threat... He did, in fact. There's one point where he says to the ghost of Obi-Wan something like "No, there is another". Referring to Leia. We think. :) > BTW, did you know that Palpatine comes back 7 years after the Battle of > Endor? ;-) Nope, didn't know that. :) > IBM calls it byte reversed but it's actually endian conversion. Ah, okay. Good. :) > EIEIO - Enforce In-order Execution of I/O, surely invented by a farmer > called McDonald! This one made me laugh. :)) > I bet it won't work on RISC OS! ;-) Is that a real RISC OS? ;) I don't know. If you have free control of refresh rates, you can blow something up. Either the monitor or the RAMDAC on the video card. Both achieve the same effect (ie no picture) but one is a whole lot cheaper to replace than the other... > BTW, you could blow up a colour monitor on a ST. There was some way to > switch off the emergency reset when the frequency was too high, then > switch to 70Hz and see how long the monitor lives... Really? Hmm. Also, why would 70Hz kill the monitor? What refresh was it normally at? I was under the impression that the Atari ST and Amiga monitors were in fact TVs without any tuners... > Didn't know that Windows is this flexible... If you mess around with the installed codecs, yes. I'm pretty sure it was a German company who released the codec - "Fraunhoffer" or something like that. I also know that within one week it was withdrawn from public because they realised that anyone could now create MP3s easily. It was also pretty good quality, but slow. > >Yes, it does. It's crap, mind, but it does have one. :) > > Haven't tried it yet. I wouldn't bother. Text interfaces suck - but commandline interfaces suck more. And this is a commandline led program thing... :-/ > >"Place your bets, please". > >I surely can make it crash a lot. :) > > I don't bet, at least not money. It's safer that way. :) > Hehe. And you would still be able to tell most customers that this is > normal! I noticed that PC customers accept lots of quirks that no other > computer user would have accepted some years ago. I agree. Such as "Oh, my computer has crashed. Never mind!" whereas on other computers it'd be more like "Oh, my computer has crashed. Why? WHY? WTF?!". We're used to it - and we shouldn't be. > One of my friends bought a notebook recently. When a program crashed he > did a reboot, but instead of starting up it just turned the screen on > and off all the time and it didn't switch off until he took the > batteries out. He really believed that to be normal and due to the > crash of the program before!!! Ooh, bad. Don't know why that would happen... > >I don't actually know what it says. I've got an ATX mobo and PSU and > so my > >computer turns off before that message appears... > > I know that from Win95 running on my PC card. And you also see it in > Windows NT. I'm not going to run NT if I can possibly help it. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 00:41:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52239 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:41:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E31275.A478DA4F@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:38:13 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories References: <38E2FF47.730E464@eurocopter.de> <38E30E6F.EEB47838@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Does anyone here actually like Eagle, BTW? I know that I don't. :) > > Eagle? What is it Eagle? A bird ;) It surely is. :) > I usually don´t like this kind of 'effects'. Nor me. Only effect like this I do like is the TV-mode in ZSNES and SNES9X. > About Graphics Theories. How are priorities handled in the NB model? AFAIK they're not. You'd have to implement that as an additional thing. The model that NB showed us was more a design for an overall engine and not meant to handle things like this. Wouldn't be hard to implement though. > Perhaps this could be done having a different layer for each priority so the > structure for layers would be something like this: > > {background, layer_scroll_b_0, layer_scroll_a_0, layer_sprite_0, > layer_scroll_b_1, layer_scroll_a_1, layer_sprite_1} Something like this, yes. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 00:56:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52268 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:56:09 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories In-Reply-To: <38E311E5.8F34A05C@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by synthcom.com id AAA52265 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Yes, but you'll find a lot of publicly released emulators are NOT this > > way. > Yes ; ) And because of this is why some emulators run nicely a game on a old PC > and other just don´t run in the last P-7000. One example I got long ago was Dave > Spicer´s Arcade emulator (Sparcade). All games runned well on my old 486 but > others emulators didn´t run properly games like SI or Pacman, too slow !!. Well Retrocade'll run Galaga on a 486/66 full speed (with a cruddy ISA card). It's no slouch performer! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 00:57:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52278 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:57:05 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories In-Reply-To: <38E30E6F.EEB47838@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by synthcom.com id AAA52275 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Does anyone here actually like Eagle, BTW? I know that I don't. :) > Eagle? What is it Eagle? A bird ;) > I usually don´t like this kind of 'effects'. A big bird that makes big poop. > About Graphics Theories. How are priorities handled in the NB model? For > example Genesis (from Generator doc): has a background, scroll B, scroll A and > sprite layer. Each has a priority bit so finally how is shown a picture is: > background > scroll B prio 0 > scroll A prio 0 > sprite prio 0 > scroll B prio 1 > scroll A prio 1 > sprite prio 1 > Perhaps this could be done having a different layer for each priority so the > structure for layers would be something like this: > {background, layer_scroll_b_0, layer_scroll_a_0, layer_sprite_0, > layer_scroll_b_1, layer_scroll_a_1, layer_sprite_1} Bingo. When the sprite is drawn, the code decides (based on its priority) which layer it goes to. If a given layer doesn't have anything to draw that frame, then *NOTHING* happens and it passes right through. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:04:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52299 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:04:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E31819.ABE2D451@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:02:17 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <38E311C7.C82BB227@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > Hi, > > > >As a Star Wars fan, you should know that there were only 2 Jedi > > Knights > > >left in Episode IV. It appears that users of the light die easily too. > > ;) > > > > That was because they were hunted down... > > No idea, I haven't read any of the books (that the films are based on or > whatever) so I don't know the story - other than what I've seen in the > films. I like the sage, but I read one of the books once and it was crap. > Terrible writing. So I didn't bother with any others. > I have readed some of the books, they aren´t real SF books (like the ones I really like) but for do some reading they are good. Palpatine and Darth Vader killed all Jedi nights some time before episode IV. And Darks Jedis are a lot of stronger than Light ones so they didn´t have a chance ;) I think I readed first Dark One was someone called Lord of Sith (Darth Vader is called so sometimes also). In a book Luke has to fight against his spirit in the moon ... what was the moon of the first movie? But in the books wrote later than first saga remake a lot of things were changed by the authors. It seems the Empire had impressive weapons (a lot of more powerful than Death Star Station) but they didn´t use them !!!. And twenty years later Luke and others are still fighting against Empire forces !! It´s a bit unbelieveable, but what do you want in an adventures book? > > > Also you have to note that Yoda didn't consider Leia. Maybe Luke was > > just the only one powerful enough to stand the threat... > > He did, in fact. There's one point where he says to the ghost of Obi-Wan > something like "No, there is another". Referring to Leia. We think. :) > > > BTW, did you know that Palpatine comes back 7 years after the Battle of > > Endor? ;-) > > Nope, didn't know that. :) > > > > BTW, you could blow up a colour monitor on a ST. There was some way to > > switch off the emergency reset when the frequency was too high, then > > switch to 70Hz and see how long the monitor lives... > > Really? Hmm. Also, why would 70Hz kill the monitor? What refresh was it > normally at? I was under the impression that the Atari ST and Amiga > monitors were in fact TVs without any tuners... > I have a 14 inch SVGA monitor theorically 60 Hz max refresh rate. The image was uggly because it is pretty bad and old so I put it to 75 Hz (Hehehe :)) ) and still works. So one day the monitor will burn up but then I will buy something better. And I can´t use now 60Hz refresh rate because seems in fact a 2 Hz refresh rate. > > Hehe. And you would still be able to tell most customers that this is > > normal! I noticed that PC customers accept lots of quirks that no other > > computer user would have accepted some years ago. > > I agree. Such as "Oh, my computer has crashed. Never mind!" whereas on > other computers it'd be more like "Oh, my computer has crashed. Why? WHY? > WTF?!". We're used to it - and we shouldn't be. > In PC, 'my computer has crashed again, ok well just restart the system ;)'. What really overcomes me is why a crash in a word processor (Word) have to crash all the system. This fucking Word2000 didn´t let me read the Genesis Tech doc ... It´s incredible that word just don´t support itself and the worst is that it crashes Windows in a standard Dead Blue Screen .... : ( This old DOS days where there wasn´t nothing to crash .... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:07:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52312 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E31855.246D98B8@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:03:17 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. > If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then > open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. Rather freaky. This is the second message in 2 days from NB to be corrupted. I can open it, but it's got lots of crap bytes before and after the message... And the stranger thing is that the corrupted message yesterday was fine in OE at home, but not in Netscape Composer here at work... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:07:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52322 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:07:34 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E30D16.2EA8B032@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > friend and he said there is a web page called something like 'Jar-Jar must > die'. Do you know about this? What do you think about this 'thing' called > Jar-Jar? Jar-Jar is the evil spawn of Satan. He instills hatred and annoyance in everyone everywhere, much like Barney or the Teletubbies, but with satanic influence. > BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie > of the saga. Yes. It sucked. Wait for it on video cassette - if then. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:10:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52342 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:10:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E318C3.F986E406@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:07 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Graphics theories References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > > Well Retrocade'll run Galaga on a 486/66 full speed (with a cruddy ISA > card). It's no slouch performer! > Oh, sorry I didn´t tried never Retrocade :( And my 486 is now stored somewhere ... But I believe you :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:32:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52390 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:32:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003300933.LAA17723@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 30, 2000 01:07:34 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:33:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > friend and he said there is a web page called something like 'Jar-Jar must > > die'. Do you know about this? What do you think about this 'thing' called > > Jar-Jar? > > Jar-Jar is the evil spawn of Satan. He instills hatred and annoyance in > everyone everywhere, much like Barney or the Teletubbies, but with satanic > influence. > I agree. And I can't read Teletubbies without .... oughhh ... Oh, not again!! ;) I don't want to think how will be children who have seen Teletubbies when grow up. These could be really hurtly. > > BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie > > of the saga. > > Yes. It sucked. Wait for it on video cassette - if then. > I saw it at the cinema. Good FX but bad story. How in hell there wasn't a single dead in the final battle between Jar-Jar's Kinds (Gungas??)? Only some robots being destroyed ... In think there were only two deads: ObiWan's master and the evil knight ... A friend saied me in TV really sucks because FX then aren't so important. For 3D made movies I like more Final Fantasy movies (more reals), I'm waiting for the Final Fantasy Movie (for next year) I hope it comes to Spain but usually there isn't Japanese Movies here. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:36:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52408 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:36:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E31F81.E271AFB5@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:33:53 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Jar-Jar is the evil spawn of Satan. He instills hatred and annoyance in > everyone everywhere, much like Barney or the Teletubbies, but with satanic > influence. Agreed. > > BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie > > of the saga. > > Yes. It sucked. Wait for it on video cassette - if then. Hey, it didn't suck too badly. It had Natalie Portman in it. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:40:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52423 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:40:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:40:56 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <200003300933.LAA17723@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Jar-Jar is the evil spawn of Satan. He instills hatred and annoyance in > > everyone everywhere, much like Barney or the Teletubbies, but with satanic > > influence. > I agree. And I can't read Teletubbies without .... oughhh ... Oh, not again!! > ;) I don't want to think how will be children who have seen Teletubbies when > grow up. These could be really hurtly. I swear someone ate some really bad mushrooms when they conjured up the Teletubbies. I'll bet it'd be really good stoned. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:41:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52432 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:41:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E31F81.E271AFB5@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie > > > of the saga. > > Yes. It sucked. Wait for it on video cassette - if then. > Hey, it didn't suck too badly. It had Natalie Portman in it. :) Yup. She's way yummy. But the story was lame, lame lame. And the pod races I just got totally lost. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:43:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52442 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:43:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003300944.LAA30096@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E31F81.E271AFB5@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 30, 2000 11:33:53 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:44:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > Jar-Jar is the evil spawn of Satan. He instills hatred and annoyance in > > everyone everywhere, much like Barney or the Teletubbies, but with satanic > > influence. > > Agreed. > Everybody agrees. Only braindeads doesn't agree. > > > BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie > > > of the saga. > > > > Yes. It sucked. Wait for it on video cassette - if then. > > Hey, it didn't suck too badly. It had Natalie Portman in it. :) > > Yes :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:47:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52471 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:47:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003300948.LAA04239@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Mar 30, 2000 01:41:22 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:48:40 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Yup. She's way yummy. But the story was lame, lame lame. And the pod races > I just got totally lost. > They want to do a copy of Ben-Hur races. I like more Ben-Hur ones (and this isn't the kind of movie a like). Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:51:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52486 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:51:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E322AA.FDC26FF2@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:47:22 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I swear someone ate some really bad mushrooms when they conjured up the > Teletubbies. I'll bet it'd be really good stoned. ;-) I just feel bad that I'm from the country responsible for distributing Tellytubbies to the world. But if you think they're evil NOW, you wait until you see the German version. It's even MORE scary! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:54:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52496 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:54:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:54:04 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E322AA.FDC26FF2@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I swear someone ate some really bad mushrooms when they conjured up the > > Teletubbies. I'll bet it'd be really good stoned. ;-) > I just feel bad that I'm from the country responsible for distributing > Tellytubbies to the world. I think every country has had their fair share of crappy things come from it. Just look at the French! > But if you think they're evil NOW, you wait until you see the German > version. It's even MORE scary! I thought it was a requirement that you be stoned to watch the teletubbies. And if I got a chance to watch it in German (when I don't speak German), I'd probably die of laughter. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:55:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52508 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:55:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E323B2.A614E86F@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:51:46 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Hey, it didn't suck too badly. It had Natalie Portman in it. :) > > Yup. She's way yummy. But the story was lame, lame lame. And the pod races > I just got totally lost. Of course, the story was crap. But so was "The Empire Strikes Back". Episode I and V were lame - and the only movies to have a storyline from George Lucas himself. The others had a professional storywriter to edit them. Hmm... Anyway, Nat is way yummy. And she's mine - you can't have her! ;p Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 01:59:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52520 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003300959.LAA01097@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E322AA.FDC26FF2@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 30, 2000 11:47:22 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:59:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > I swear someone ate some really bad mushrooms when they conjured up the > > Teletubbies. I'll bet it'd be really good stoned. ;-) > > I just feel bad that I'm from the country responsible for distributing > Tellytubbies to the world. > > But if you think they're evil NOW, you wait until you see the German > version. It's even MORE scary! God Thanks, I never seen the Spanish version either. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 02:10:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA52658 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:10:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:10:31 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E323B2.A614E86F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Hey, it didn't suck too badly. It had Natalie Portman in it. :) > > Yup. She's way yummy. But the story was lame, lame lame. And the pod races > > I just got totally lost. > Of course, the story was crap. But so was "The Empire Strikes Back". I think you're thinking of Return Of The Jedi. That story was crap. ESB Is considered by many people to be the best of the series (I do, too). > Episode I and V were lame - and the only movies to have a storyline from > George Lucas himself. The others had a professional storywriter to edit > them. Hmm... Edit yes, but Lucas penned them all. > Anyway, Nat is way yummy. And she's mine - you can't have her! ;p Ha! Now are we going to get on the topic of women? Well, here's my list: Helent Hunt Salma Hayek Julianne Moore Julia Roberts Renee O'Connor Christine Taylor Christina Applegate Jennifer Aniston Sanda Bullock Laura Dern Heather Graham Teri Hatcher Anne Heche (bummer she's gay) Elizabeth Hurley Reese Witherspoon Marisa Tomei Denise Richards (no brains, but *DAMN*!) Gates McFadden (she's 50 but still damned hot) Alyssa Milano Andie MacDowell Julia Louis-Dreyfus Natalie Portman Anyone else? ;-) There's something I find "cute" about the teeny bopper girls but I dig the older women. If you don't know who they are, do a web search. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 02:27:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA52727 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E32ABF.13A44CCC@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:21:51 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I think you're thinking of Return Of The Jedi. That story was crap. ESB Is > considered by many people to be the best of the series (I do, too). The second one of the three is the one I'm referring to. I thought that was terrible! > > Episode I and V were lame - and the only movies to have a storyline from > > George Lucas himself. The others had a professional storywriter to edit > > them. Hmm... > > Edit yes, but Lucas penned them all. Yes. But the ones left untouched were bad (or at least I think so)! > > Anyway, Nat is way yummy. And she's mine - you can't have her! ;p > > Ha! Now are we going to get on the topic of women? Well, here's my list: Okay, let's see who I agree with: > Julia Roberts > Christina Applegate > Jennifer Aniston > Sanda Bullock > Heather Graham > Teri Hatcher > Elizabeth Hurley > Denise Richards (no brains, but *DAMN*!) So you've seen "Wild Things" then? I bet you used the pause button! ;) > Natalie Portman > Alyssa Milano People I don't know (or their name doesn't ring a bell): > Helent Hunt > Salma Hayek > Julianne Moore > Renee O'Connor > Christine Taylor > Laura Dern > Anne Heche (bummer she's gay) > Reese Witherspoon > Marisa Tomei > Julia Louis-Dreyfus People I don't think are great: > Gates McFadden (she's 50 but still damned hot) > Andie MacDowell None of those in the list were bad. :) > Anyone else? ;-) There's something I find "cute" about the teeny bopper > girls but I dig the older women. If you don't know who they are, do a web > search. ;-) I'm sure I will. I'm trying to think who else I'd add. In terms of actresses, I can't think of any more to add to that list (you've covered my list, pretty much). Others I may add would be: Christina Aguilera Britney Spears (Yes, they're fake... but I'm not after her when she's 50...) There are a few others, but you're not likely to know them. Either soap stars or just people off British TV. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 02:37:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA52755 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:37:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:37:38 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E32ABF.13A44CCC@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I think you're thinking of Return Of The Jedi. That story was crap. ESB Is > > considered by many people to be the best of the series (I do, too). > The second one of the three is the one I'm referring to. I thought that was > terrible! I don't know how you can say that. That was the only episode with any sort of soul! What did you find awful about it? Certainly it wasn't anywhere near as bad as the Ewoks! > > Denise Richards (no brains, but *DAMN*!) > So you've seen "Wild Things" then? I bet you used the pause button! ;) I've seen it, but no pause button (wife was watching, too). Major chubbyage! > People I don't know (or their name doesn't ring a bell): > > Helent Hunt Twister (bad move) > > Salma Hayek Was in Wild, Wild West (bad movie) > > Julianne Moore 9 Months, Boogie Nights, Lost World (terrible movie) > > Renee O'Connor Xena: Warrior Princess's sidekick > > Christine Taylor Brady Bunch Movie > > Laura Dern Jurassic Park (Ellie Sattler) > > Anne Heche (bummer she's gay) Can't remember... > > Reese Witherspoon Election, Pleasantville > > Marisa Tomei My Cousin Vinny - cute Italian > > Julia Louis-Dreyfus Seinfeld > People I don't think are great: > > Gates McFadden (she's 50 but still damned hot) Hey.... you gotta see her - season 3 - in those starfleet uniforms. Hubba hubba! > > Andie MacDowell The wood is fading, but it's still there. She's yummy, too. > None of those in the list were bad. :) It's not like I threw a Kathy Bates in there to see if you were paying attention. > Christina Aguilera Dumb, brainless tart. > Britney Spears (Yes, they're fake... but I'm not after her when she's > 50...) Dumb, brainless tart. These are the type of "girls" we'd "fuck & chuck" when in high school. > There are a few others, but you're not likely to know them. Either soap > stars or just people off British TV. :) Well, I remember some chick in Dr. Who named Sarah who was a short little hottie. But then again, I was 12 at the time and I don't think my sense of what was and wasn't attractive had solidifed yet. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 02:52:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA52787 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:52:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E330B9.CC1AE139@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:47:21 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > > Salma Hayek > > Was in Wild, Wild West (bad movie) I know now. > > > Julianne Moore > > 9 Months, Boogie Nights, Lost World (terrible movie) I think I know now (I got bored in Boogie Nights, didn't think that was up to much)... > > > Renee O'Connor > > Xena: Warrior Princess's sidekick Yes, I know. She's quite nice, though not in my top 20. > > > Christine Taylor > > Brady Bunch Movie Haven't seen it. > > > Laura Dern > > Jurassic Park (Ellie Sattler) Hmm... okay, yep. > > > Reese Witherspoon > > Election, Pleasantville Haven't seen either... > > > Marisa Tomei > > My Cousin Vinny - cute Italian Ooh. Okay, she could go in my list. > > > Julia Louis-Dreyfus > > Seinfeld Still no clue. > > People I don't think are great: > > > Gates McFadden (she's 50 but still damned hot) > > Hey.... you gotta see her - season 3 - in those starfleet uniforms. Hubba > hubba! Heh. :) > > None of those in the list were bad. :) > > It's not like I threw a Kathy Bates in there to see if you were paying > attention. Good. :) > > Christina Aguilera > > Dumb, brainless tart. Yes. > > Britney Spears (Yes, they're fake... but I'm not after her when she's > > 50...) > > Dumb, brainless tart. Yes. Your point is? ;) >These are the type of "girls" we'd "fuck & chuck" when in high school. Yes, exactly. But I was just talking about girls who look nice. I'm not going to have a relationship with either, so I don't care how clever they are. :) > > There are a few others, but you're not likely to know them. Either soap > > stars or just people off British TV. :) > > Well, I remember some chick in Dr. Who named Sarah who was a short little > hottie. But then again, I was 12 at the time and I don't think my sense of > what was and wasn't attractive had solidifed yet. Was that the blonde? No, what am I saying? Almost all of them were! :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 06:13:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA53155 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003301414.QAA11016@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E32ABF.13A44CCC@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 30, 2000 12:21:51 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:14:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, MIKE, I have seen your web page and I have a question to ask you. In your book section you have Tolkien's "Silmarillion". Why? Usually people reads "Lord of the Rings" or "The Hobbit". But the only one you have is "Silmarillion". I ask you this because it's the book a like more from Tolkien. You also seem to read some SF (Science Fiction) books. Perhaps, you are also a SF maniac :). I'm luckly because my university (UPC) has a very good SF library so I have readed tons of SF books, and there is also an UPC Science Fiction Award, do you know it? It seems it's known outside of Spain and a lot of SF writers have come to talk each year. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 06:23:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA53197 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:23:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E3627B.4960D17@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:19:39 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <200003301414.QAA11016@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > MIKE, I have seen your web page and I have a question to ask you. In your book > section you have Tolkien's "Silmarillion". Why? Usually people reads "Lord of > the Rings" or "The Hobbit". But the only one you have is "Silmarillion". I ask > you this because it's the book a like more from Tolkien. And in fact it's quite usual for children in Britain to make a study of "The Hobbit". > You also seem to read some SF (Science Fiction) books. Perhaps, you are also a > SF maniac :). I'm luckly because my university (UPC) has a very good SF > library so I have readed tons of SF books, and there is also an UPC Science > Fiction Award, do you know it? It seems it's known outside of Spain and a > lot of SF writers have come to talk each year. I don't mind SF books, but I'm really into Science Fantasy books. I have several favourite authors (such as David Eddings - who I'm prepared to believe is the next Tolkien - and Piers Anthony). There are others, these are just the ones I can remember straight away. My other favourite author is Terry Pratchett (British!) whose books, while being fantasy, also have a lot of humour inside. Apparently he's Britains number 1 author at the moment, but I've been reading his books since he was an unknown. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 06:37:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA53226 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:37:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003301438.QAA08712@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E3627B.4960D17@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 30, 2000 04:19:39 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:38:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > And in fact it's quite usual for children in Britain to make a study of > "The Hobbit". Being a so easy to read book and so well wrote (but I didn't read it in english though, but Tolkien was a english teacher so ...) it seems very normal. I don't mind SF books, but I'm really into Science Fantasy books. I have > several favourite authors (such as David Eddings - who I'm prepared to > believe is the next Tolkien - and Piers Anthony). There are others, these > are just the ones I can remember straight away. My other favourite author > is Terry Pratchett (British!) whose books, while being fantasy, also have a > lot of humour inside. Apparently he's Britains number 1 author at the > moment, but I've been reading his books since he was an unknown. :) I have readed some Fantasy books too, in fact there is a discussion between writers about what is Fantasy and what is Science Fiction. Sometimes is hard to say if a book is Fantasy or SF. I don't remember to know about 'David Eddings', what has he written? I know Terry Pratchett but I have readed only a few of his books, the UPC library doesn't have Fantasy books. Do you know who is Michael Morcok (I don't remember how exactly is his name)? But I only have readed some Fantasy books so I'm not an expert. If my university has Fantasy books .... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:04:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA53964 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:04:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:29:52 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id LAA53961 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Something about dies and Star Wars. Today I was talking about Episode I with a >friend and he said there is a web page called something like 'Jar-Jar must >die'. Do you know about this? I haven't seen the site yet, but I've heard of such movement. >What do you think about this 'thing' called Jar-Jar? Well, they replaced the humor between R2-D2 and C-3PO with this slapstick character. Exqueese me - what else shall I say? >I don´t know the web direction but he said me there is a section >about manners of kill it but ever 'at the start of the movie' ;) Some one even said that Jar-Jar will be a Dark Jedi because fear feeds the Dark Side and just take this Jar-Jar quote: "This gonna be messy, me no watching." >BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie of the >saga. Some say it's bad and somewhat unfinished. What they don't understand is that this film is only the prologue of a series which should originally consist of 9 films. And Episode 1 certainly did to me what Lucas intended: I had the need to see the second prequel! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:04:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA53972 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:04:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:43:35 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No idea, I haven't read any of the books (that the films are based on or >whatever) so I don't know the story - other than what I've seen in the >films. I like the sage, but I read one of the books once and it was crap. >Terrible writing. So I didn't bother with any others. Do you know which one it was? An older or newer one? There are several newer ones which are really crap, eg. Crystal Star. The best Star Wars books are written by Timothy Zahn and Michael Stackpole. My favourite is "I, Jedi" by the latter author. >He did, in fact. There's one point where he says to the ghost of Obi- Wan >something like "No, there is another". Referring to Leia. We think. :) But he wasn't sure if she was strong enough so he didn't mention her. And it was Obi-Wan's guess that it must be Leia. >Nope, didn't know that. :) Really, before he "dies" in Return of the Jedi (originally Revenge of the Jedi, and during filming Blue Harvest - disguised as a horror movie) he transferred his soul (did he have one?) to a prepared clone on a world very near to the galactic core. He comes back 7 years later in the comic Dark Empire. >> EIEIO - Enforce In-order Execution of I/O, surely invented by a farmer >> called McDonald! >This one made me laugh. :)) The instruction is really called that way! I stole the joke from Peter van der Linden though... >Is that a real RISC OS? ;) The name is RISC OS and it runs on the oldest commercial RISC architecture: ARM. Currently I have a StrongARM but I'd only need 2 minutes to fit my old ARM610 again. >I don't know. If you have free control of refresh rates, you can blow >something up. Either the monitor or the RAMDAC on the video card. Both >achieve the same effect (ie no picture) but one is a whole lot cheaper to >replace than the other... Good, I don't think that such a prog knows how the VIDC20 works ;-) >Really? Hmm. Also, why would 70Hz kill the monitor? What refresh was it >normally at? I was under the impression that the Atari ST and Amiga >monitors were in fact TVs without any tuners... Colour monitors or TV sets were driven with 60Hz but Atari's b/w monitors (old 12 inch SM124 or the newer 14 inch SM146) ran at 70Hz frequency. >If you mess around with the installed codecs, yes. I'm pretty sure it was a >German company who released the codec - "Fraunhoffer" or something like >that. I also know that within one week it was withdrawn from public because >they realised that anyone could now create MP3s easily. It was also pretty >good quality, but slow. Yeah, I think one guy from Erlangen (where I live) created it ;-) >I wouldn't bother. Text interfaces suck - but commandline interfaces suck >more. And this is a commandline led program thing... :-/ The Be CDBurner has a GUI but it doesn't recognize my HP CDR6020i :-( >I agree. Such as "Oh, my computer has crashed. Never mind!" whereas on >other computers it'd be more like "Oh, my computer has crashed. Why? WHY? >WTF?!". We're used to it - and we shouldn't be. Indeed! >Ooh, bad. Don't know why that would happen... Yeah, I said to him that he should tell dealer what happend because this surely is a fault in the notebook, but he thought that was normal... >I'm not going to run NT if I can possibly help it. :) Well done. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:04:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA53981 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:04:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:17:48 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id LAA53978 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I have readed some of the books, they aren´t real SF books (like the ones I >really like) but for do some reading they are good. Palpatine and Darth Vader >killed all Jedi nights some time before episode IV. Not all, there were at least Obi-Wan and Yoda left. There is actually an explanation why they didn't find Yoda. Remember that place on Dagobah where Luke beheaded Darth Vader and it turned out to be himself? Yoda defeatet a Dark Jedi there some time ago and due to the high concentration of the Dark Side there Yoda's power was neutralized and couldn't be tracked. But it still doesn't explain why they weren't able to find Obi-Wan. >And Darks Jedis are a lot >of stronger than Light ones so they didn´t have a chance ;) According to Yoda the Dark Side doesn't make one stronger. >I think I readed >first Dark One was someone called Lord of Sith (Darth Vader is called so >sometimes also). According a comic series the Sith were a race and the mightiest was called the Dark Lord of the Sith. One of these (forgot his name) fled to Yavin 4. >In a book Luke has to fight against his spirit in the moon >... what was the moon of the first movie? You mean Exar Kun, he was a Jedi who searcher for Sith lore and came to Yavin 4. It's claimed that he was even more mighty than Palpatine or Vader. BTW, did you read Kevin J. Andersons Jedi Acadamy Trilogy or was that part from the parallel book "I, Jedi"? I don't like Kevin Anderson much and especially after he killed Crix Madine in Darksaber. But I wasn't as shock as when Chewie died in Vector Prime... >But in the books wrote later than >first saga remake a lot of things were changed by the authors. It seems the >Empire had impressive weapons (a lot of more powerful than Death Star Station) >but they didn´t use them !!!. Do you mean "Palpatine's Eye" from "Children of the Jedi"? Or do you refer to the Noghri? >And twenty years later Luke and others are >still fighting against Empire forces !! The make a peace treaty in the end of Zahn's "Vision of the Future". >It´s a bit unbelieveable, but what do you want in an adventures book? Well, they always want to make it bigger, bigger, and bigger. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:05:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA53993 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:21:43 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Jar-Jar is the evil spawn of Satan. He instills hatred and annoyance in >everyone everywhere, much like Barney or the Teletubbies, but with satanic >influence. Hehe. >> BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie >> of the saga. >Yes. It sucked. Wait for it on video cassette - if then. No, it certainly wasn't that bad. There are lots of references to the past and the future. It's certainly most interesting to watch Palpatine when he reveals himself as the bad guy ;-) BTW, did you know the shortes description of Episode 1? Qui gone. Darth mauled. Obi won. ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:05:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA54007 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:23:59 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I saw it at the cinema. Good FX but bad story. How in hell there wasn't a >single dead in the final battle between Jar-Jar's Kinds (Gungas??)? The name of the species is Gungan. >Only some >robots being destroyed ... In think there were only two deads: ObiWan's master >and the evil knight ... Some Naboo pilots and the whole crew of a droid controll ship... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:05:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA54008 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:25:17 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >But if you think they're evil NOW, you wait until you see the German >version. It's even MORE scary! Really? I can only watch it for a few seconds anyway before it drives me mad... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:05:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA54019 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:48:21 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I think you're thinking of Return Of The Jedi. That story was crap. ESB Is >considered by many people to be the best of the series (I do, too). So do I. >Ha! Now are we going to get on the topic of women? Well, here's my list: Now to the chicks... BTW, stormtroopers are also sometimes called chicks ;-) >Helent Hunt I think she got an Oscar last year for a film with Jack Nicholson, but I forgot the name... >Salma Hayek Hot! >Julianne Moore I first recognized her due to her very short appearance in The Fugitive. >Julia Roberts Don't like her that much. >Renee O'Connor She's better than Lucy Lawless ;-) >Christine Taylor Don't know her... >Christina Applegate Kelly Bundy. I think she now stars in the sitcom Jessie. >Jennifer Aniston Nice Friend(s). You forgot Courtney Cox. >Sanda Bullock Speedy ;-) >Laura Dern The daughter of Bruce Dern. Don't like her that much. >Heather Graham Haven't seen any of her performances (apart from that during the Oscar night) but she's cute. >Teri Hatcher She already is the girlfriend of Superman. >Anne Heche (bummer she's gay) Vulcano? >Elizabeth Hurley In some films I like her in others not. >Reese Witherspoon I recognized her when she was still young and in a movie playing in Africa, don't know the title though. >Marisa Tomei I think I saw her in afilm with Robert Downey jr. >Denise Richards (no brains, but *DAMN*!) Oh no! In Starship troopers I prefered Dina Meyer but the wrong one died! >Gates McFadden (she's 50 but still damned hot) True. >Alyssa Milano Even better in combination with her 2 witch sisters ;-) >Andie MacDowell Groundhog day... >Julia Louis-Dreyfus Yes! >Natalie Portman Maybe they shouldn't have changed her voice as Amidala that much. What about: Christina Ricci Julie Delpy Kate Beckinsale Cameron Diaz Charlize Theron Elizabeth Shue Madchen Amick I'm sure I forgot many... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:05:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA54028 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Books Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:58:43 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >MIKE, I have seen your web page and I have a question to ask you. In your book >section you have Tolkien's "Silmarillion". Why? Usually people reads "Lord of >the Rings" or "The Hobbit". But the only one you have is "Silmarillion". I ask >you this because it's the book a like more from Tolkien. I read the Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion, Tales form Middle-Earth, and several secondary literature. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to decide if I am more Tolkien or Star Wars maniac, but I have more Star Wars material now. The reason why I list the Silmarillion instead of LOTR: - Everyone says the LOTR is great so why have it to do that? - When I was younger I read many Greek sagas and later switched to Norse sagas which also largely inspired Tolkien - take the Old Edda and you'll notice that he got names like Thorin or Gandalf from there! Since I mainly enjoy the tales with the gods (Odin, Thor, Loki,...) it's natural that I also like the Silmarillion, which is like Tolkien's bible. BTW, did you know that the Elven name for Middle-Earth is "Endor"? ;-) >You also seem to read some SF (Science Fiction) books. Perhaps, you are also a >SF maniac :). It depends. My problem is that I often don't have the time to read so many books. But Ian Banks' "Agains a Dark Background" is great! I'd like to read more books written by him but I have problems to get these. >I'm luckly because my university (UPC) has a very good SF >library so I have readed tons of SF books, and there is also an UPC Science >Fiction Award, do you know it? It seems it's known outside of Spain and a >lot of SF writers have come to talk each year. That's new to me. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:05:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA54036 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Books Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:01:18 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >And in fact it's quite usual for children in Britain to make a study of >"The Hobbit". I bet so! >I don't mind SF books, but I'm really into Science Fantasy books. Star Wars is often classified as Science Fantasy too. >I have >several favourite authors (such as David Eddings - who I'm prepared to >believe is the next Tolkien - and Piers Anthony). One of my friends likes Piers Anthony but I haven't read any of his books yet. >There are others, these >are just the ones I can remember straight away. My other favourite author >is Terry Pratchett (British!) whose books, while being fantasy, also have a >lot of humour inside. Apparently he's Britains number 1 author at the >moment, but I've been reading his books since he was an unknown. :) Do you know "Good Omens"? He co-wrote that book with Neil Gaiman. Absolutely great. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 11:05:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA54045 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:05:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:04:25 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Being a so easy to read book and so well wrote (but I didn't read it in english >though, but Tolkien was a english teacher so ...) it seems very normal. Well, he was a professor... >I have readed some Fantasy books too, in fact there is a discussion between >writers about what is Fantasy and what is Science Fiction. Sometimes is hard to >say if a book is Fantasy or SF. I don't remember to know about 'David Eddings', >what has he written? Don't know that one. >I know Terry Pratchett but I have readed only a few of his >books, the UPC library doesn't have Fantasy books. Do you know who is Michael >Morcok (I don't remember how exactly is his name)? The name is Michael Moorcock. He wrote the books about Elric of Melnibone (eg. Stormbringer) and Corum. I only know that because I have the Strombringer RPG. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 14:19:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA54945 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003e01bf9a95$9ccdc980$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:04:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Christina Ricci Ooh, forgot her... > Cameron Diaz DEFINITELY! :) > I'm sure I forgot many... I forgot Sarah Michelle Gellar... She's nice too. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 14:19:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA54954 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01bf9a95$a289aec0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Books Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:05:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > One of my friends likes Piers Anthony but I haven't read any of his > books yet. Some are strange, but worth reading. Funny, for sure. :) > Do you know "Good Omens"? He co-wrote that book with Neil Gaiman. > Absolutely great. I know it, I have it - and I agree. It's great! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 14:20:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA54967 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004001bf9a95$a7bdc660$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200003301438.QAA08712@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:08:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I don't remember to know about 'David Eddings', what has he written? Possibly the two best fantasy series' of the last 50 years or so. The Belgariad and the Mallorean. Both are trilogies made up of 5 books. Absolutely fantastic, he has a way with words. Having said that, I'm not so keen on some of the other series' that he's written, so maybe it was just those... :) > Do you know who is Michael > Morcok (I don't remember how exactly is his name)? Yes, though I find his books too short personally. I'm a fast reader and I can quite easily go through a 200-page book in an hour. Which is a bad thing, believe me. :-/ > But I only have readed some Fantasy books so I'm not an expert. If my > university has Fantasy books .... I don't know whether I'm an expert, but I'd like to think I am. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 14:20:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA54976 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004101bf9a95$aebeaec0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Books Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:13:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > But Ian Banks' "Agains a Dark Background" is great! I'd like to read > more books written by him but I have problems to get these. Good author - I've read two of his books. Can't remember which ones, though. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 17:21:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA55647 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:21:09 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks In-Reply-To: <003e01bf9a95$9ccdc980$0a909090@okay> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Christina Ricci > Ooh, forgot her... Kind of a ho... > > Cameron Diaz > DEFINITELY! :) Definitely *NOT*. She's total trailer trash! > > I'm sure I forgot many... > I forgot Sarah Michelle Gellar... She's nice too. :) Yep. ;-) But she reminds me too much of one of my nieces and that just causes weird feelings. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 22:38:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00293 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:38:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E445FC.4BF1F5E5@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:30:20 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >> EIEIO - Enforce In-order Execution of I/O, surely invented by a > farmer > >> called McDonald! > >This one made me laugh. :)) > > The instruction is really called that way! I stole the joke from Peter > van der Linden though... I believe you! It's just... funny. :) > >Is that a real RISC OS? ;) > > The name is RISC OS and it runs on the oldest commercial RISC > architecture: ARM. Currently I have a StrongARM but I'd only need 2 > minutes to fit my old ARM610 again. I was joking, I know RISC OS. I've used it a lot when I was using some old Archimedes computers back when I was in high school... > >Really? Hmm. Also, why would 70Hz kill the monitor? What refresh was > it > >normally at? I was under the impression that the Atari ST and Amiga > >monitors were in fact TVs without any tuners... > > Colour monitors or TV sets were driven with 60Hz but Atari's b/w > monitors (old 12 inch SM124 or the newer 14 inch SM146) ran at 70Hz > frequency. TV sets in Europe (and most of the world) should be 50Hz, in fact. You only get 60Hz in places like the US and Japan. But we make up for it by having more definition on our TVs. :) > >It was also pretty good quality, but slow. > > Yeah, I think one guy from Erlangen (where I live) created it ;-) Really? Heh. :) > >I wouldn't bother. Text interfaces suck - but commandline interfaces > >suck more. And this is a commandline led program thing... :-/ > > The Be CDBurner has a GUI but it doesn't recognize my HP CDR6020i :-( Is that SCSI or IDE? It must be SCSI because if it's IDE, there's something up with BeOS. > >Ooh, bad. Don't know why that would happen... > > Yeah, I said to him that he should tell dealer what happend because > this surely is a fault in the notebook, but he thought that was > normal... Heh. I'd guess at it not being normal, actually. :) > >I'm not going to run NT if I can possibly help it. :) > > Well done. Thank you. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 22:38:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00306 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E442E9.68A55674@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:17:13 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > > Christina Ricci > > Ooh, forgot her... > > Kind of a ho... Heh. :) > > > Cameron Diaz > > DEFINITELY! :) > > Definitely *NOT*. She's total trailer trash! Maybe so, but she's trailer trash with nice tits. :) BTW, what is "trailer trash"? > > > I'm sure I forgot many... > > I forgot Sarah Michelle Gellar... She's nice too. :) > > Yep. ;-) But she reminds me too much of one of my nieces and that just > causes weird feelings. She's nice and I shouldn't have forgotten her. Too bad you have wierd feelings about that. So, SMG reminds you of your niece? So... about your niece... ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 22:42:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00362 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:42:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:42:45 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E445FC.4BF1F5E5@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >Really? Hmm. Also, why would 70Hz kill the monitor? What refresh was > > >normally at? I was under the impression that the Atari ST and Amiga > > >monitors were in fact TVs without any tuners... > > Colour monitors or TV sets were driven with 60Hz but Atari's b/w > > monitors (old 12 inch SM124 or the newer 14 inch SM146) ran at 70Hz > > frequency. > TV sets in Europe (and most of the world) should be 50Hz, in fact. No, they shouldn't. Even 60hz is too slow. > You only > get 60Hz in places like the US and Japan. But we make up for it by having > more definition on our TVs. :) 8% more horizontal lines of resolution and 5FPS slower than NTSC? People wouldn't notice it anyway. No thanks. It flickers bad enough at 60HZ let alone 50HZ, and yes, I've seen PAL and NTSC side by side on professional studio monitors and NTSC is far crisper and smoother. PAL Looks smeared and flickery by comparison. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 22:46:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00436 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003310650.IAA14560@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 30, 2000 07:29:52 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:50:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >BTW we can talk about what do you think about this last(first?!) movie > of the > >saga. > > Some say it's bad and somewhat unfinished. What they don't understand > is that this film is only the prologue of a series which should > originally consist of 9 films. And Episode 1 certainly did to me what > Lucas intended: I had the need to see the second prequel! What I think is perhaps I won't want to see the second prequel. Episode II seems to be a love story between Anakin and ???, I don't remember who. But do you think he will do Episode III. In Episode III Anakin has to become Darth Vader, Palpatine the Emperor a lot of people killed. I think this is far from the kind of movie is Episode I, perhaps would be an adventures movie but it isn't a movie for laugh. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:03:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00481 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E44CC5.3C8BB8CA@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:59:17 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > TV sets in Europe (and most of the world) should be 50Hz, in fact. > > No, they shouldn't. Even 60hz is too slow. You're right. Maybe saying they "should be" was wrong. In this case, "usually are" might have been better. HDTV could be interesting. :) > > You only > > get 60Hz in places like the US and Japan. But we make up for it by having > > more definition on our TVs. :) > > 8% more horizontal lines of resolution and 5FPS slower than NTSC? People > wouldn't notice it anyway. No thanks. It flickers bad enough at 60HZ let > alone 50HZ, and yes, I've seen PAL and NTSC side by side on professional > studio monitors and NTSC is far crisper and smoother. PAL Looks smeared > and flickery by comparison. You notice the difference in quality between US and UK TVs - 8% extra vertical width makes a lot of difference. You don't usually notice the flicker unless you're in a darkened room - and only usually then when you look at the light from the TV on the wall. I can see it sometimes, depends how tired I am. :) I've also seen PAL and NTSC side by side - and NTSC on one of our TVs is great (I don't know why but some TVs support it). NTSC is definitely better than PAL - I'm not going to argue that. But the greater vertical width is highly noticable. It's the difference between 320x200 and 320x240 - quite noticable. But proof, if needed, is just watch any on of the US shows that they show over in the UK (usually chat shows, I don't know why they bother - but it can be anything). Quite often the quality is completely shit. And so is the program usually. "Go Jerry! Go Jerry!" :-/ "Eh-oh!" >:-) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:03:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00492 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:03:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E44D27.7B999211@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:00:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: <200003310650.IAA14560@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Some say it's bad and somewhat unfinished. What they don't understand > > is that this film is only the prologue of a series which should > > originally consist of 9 films. And Episode 1 certainly did to me what > > Lucas intended: I had the need to see the second prequel! > > What I think is perhaps I won't want to see the second prequel. Episode II > seems to be a love story between Anakin and ???, I don't remember who. Queen Amidala, played by Natalie Portman. I'm not going to enjoy that film - for one good reason. "No, Nat, no! Don't do it! Save yourself!" :) > But do > you think he will do Episode III. In Episode III Anakin has to become Darth > Vader, Palpatine the Emperor a lot of people killed. I think this is far from > the kind of movie is Episode I, perhaps would be an adventures movie but it > isn't a movie for laugh. Who knows when it'll happen? He could start to turn to the Dark Side in Episode II... Who knows? George Lucas, most likely. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:04:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00499 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:04:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003310707.JAA13725@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 30, 2000 08:17:48 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:07:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pons.ac.upc.es id JAA13725 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id XAA00496 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Not all, there were at least Obi-Wan and Yoda left. There is actually > an explanation why they didn't find Yoda. Remember that place on > Dagobah where Luke beheaded Darth Vader and it turned out to be > himself? Yoda defeatet a Dark Jedi there some time ago and due to the > high concentration of the Dark Side there Yoda's power was neutralized > and couldn't be tracked. But it still doesn't explain why they weren't > able to find Obi-Wan. > I know this. What I means is all Jedi Knights were killed but Obi-Wan and Yoda. And in some books there are also other lost Jedis. For example I remember a clone from an old Knight and also a number of Dark Knights. > >And Darks Jedis are a lot > >of stronger than Light ones so they didn´t have a chance ;) > > According to Yoda the Dark Side doesn't make one stronger. > I'm talking about the facts :) If the writer makes the heroe win although it is weaker this doesn't make the bad guy being more powerful. In fact in the books I have readed seems Luke has more luck than other thing. It's better he would become a Jedi professor and let new Jedis fight agains dark forces. It seems a bad copy of Obi-Wan with less age. > >I think I readed > >first Dark One was someone called Lord of Sith (Darth Vader is called > so > >sometimes also). > > According a comic series the Sith were a race and the mightiest was > called the Dark Lord of the Sith. One of these (forgot his name) fled > to Yavin 4. > I think I remember something like this ... but my memory is really bad :( > >In a book Luke has to fight against his spirit in the moon > >... what was the moon of the first movie? > > You mean Exar Kun, he was a Jedi who searcher for Sith lore and came to > Yavin 4. It's claimed that he was even more mighty than Palpatine or > Vader. > BTW, did you read Kevin J. Andersons Jedi Acadamy Trilogy or was that > part from the parallel book "I, Jedi"? > I don't like Kevin Anderson much and especially after he killed Crix > Madine in Darksaber. But I wasn't as shock as when Chewie died in > Vector Prime... > I don't remember now if I have readed "I, Jedi", knowing Spanish translators they can have changed the title, and my memory is really bad. I have readed Jedi Academy Trilogy and some more trylogy. > >But in the books wrote later than > >first saga remake a lot of things were changed by the authors. It > seems the > >Empire had impressive weapons (a lot of more powerful than Death Star > Station) > >but they didn´t use them !!!. > > Do you mean "Palpatine's Eye" from "Children of the Jedi"? Or do you > refer to the Noghri? > And the star crusher and planet destroyers and a lot of more weapons. I remember there was a scientist facility hidden with the Death Star Prototype. I just have remembered the Noghri's. Thrawn/Vader special forces when they saw Leia they follow her. > >And twenty years later Luke and others are > >still fighting against Empire forces !! > > The make a peace treaty in the end of Zahn's "Vision of the Future". > I think I'm readed something from Zahn. But I can't just remember. Finally there are only a few imperial forces resting. I remember that woman admiral (I just don't remember her name) who finally becomes in a kind of piracy band. And helps Luke and friends!! It was sad when Thrawn died ..., it was a good enemy, perhaps the better general of the Empire ... > >It´s a bit unbelieveable, but what do you want in an adventures book? > > Well, they always want to make it bigger, bigger, and bigger. > Yes this is the general idea. To sell more books :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:13:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00532 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:13:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003310716.JAA09337@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Books In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 30, 2000 08:58:43 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:16:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I read the Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion, Tales form Middle-Earth, and > several secondary literature. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to decide if I > am more Tolkien or Star Wars maniac, but I have more Star Wars material > now. > The reason why I list the Silmarillion instead of LOTR: I'm readed Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion and perhaps some more but I don't remember. I think LOTR it's a good book but I like more The Hobbit and Silmarillion. The last book of LOTR it's too sad, too slow and too boring for me. I can accept the good ones being defeated but not support the Frodo's quest to destroy the ring, he really didn't nothing!!. I like a lot sagas, so the best book for me is Silmarillion. And you can learn about all what happened in Middle-Earth. > BTW, did you know that the Elven name for Middle-Earth is "Endor"? ;-) > "Endor" brings me something to my head, but I can't just remember ... > >You also seem to read some SF (Science Fiction) books. Perhaps, you > are also a > >SF maniac :). > > It depends. My problem is that I often don't have the time to read so > many books. > But Ian Banks' "Agains a Dark Background" is great! I'd like to read > more books written by him but I have problems to get these. > I remember I have readed something from Ian Banks, but I can't remember this title, perhaps are this fucking Spanish translators ... I readed some books from a serie were large's IAs and humans live in large Space Ships ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:20:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00549 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:20:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003310724.JAA13171@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <004001bf9a95$a7bdc660$0a909090@okay> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 31, 2000 00:08:46 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:24:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > I don't remember to know about 'David Eddings', what has he written? > > Possibly the two best fantasy series' of the last 50 years or so. The > Belgariad and the Mallorean. Both are trilogies made up of 5 books. > Absolutely fantastic, he has a way with words. Having said that, I'm not so > keen on some of the other series' that he's written, so maybe it was just > those... :) > I think I haven't readed nothing from it :( > > Do you know who is Michael > > Morcok (I don't remember how exactly is his name)? > > Yes, though I find his books too short personally. I'm a fast reader and I > can quite easily go through a 200-page book in an hour. Which is a bad > thing, believe me. :-/ > But just group each serie in a single book an you will get a large book. I also read fast, a 200-page book it's a 'small' story for me ;) I want large books of 1000-2000 pages (poor writers) :)) I have readed three or four of his series. In fact they are all the same (same hero, same enemies, same sad story). And I have 'Tales form RuneStaff' (or something similar in name' in my home. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:23:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00559 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:23:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003310727.JAA10370@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: <38E44D27.7B999211@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 31, 2000 09:00:55 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:27:20 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Queen Amidala, played by Natalie Portman. I'm not going to enjoy that film > - for one good reason. "No, Nat, no! Don't do it! Save yourself!" :) Think about this, Di Caprio being Anakin :) God thanks finally he didn't want to do this movie. I think Di Caprio would have killed StarWars Saga for ever ... > Who knows when it'll happen? He could start to turn to the Dark Side in > Episode II... Who knows? George Lucas, most likely. :) > I'm sure he will let the better/worst for the end. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:41:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00602 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E45593.7D7A4727@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:36:51 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: <200003310727.JAA10370@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Queen Amidala, played by Natalie Portman. I'm not going to enjoy that film > > - for one good reason. "No, Nat, no! Don't do it! Save yourself!" :) > Think about this, Di Caprio being Anakin :) Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! > God thanks finally he didn't want to do this movie. I think Di Caprio would have > killed StarWars Saga for ever ... He would, but that's not my problem. I hate him and think he's one of the biggest arseholes in the world. Which reminds me, two more to add to my list: Claire Danes Heather Graham > > Who knows when it'll happen? He could start to turn to the Dark Side in > > Episode II... Who knows? George Lucas, most likely. :) > > > I'm sure he will let the better/worst for the end. Maybe. Oh well, I'm not going to waste time worrying about it. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:50:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00620 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:50:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200003310753.JAA05651@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: <38E45593.7D7A4727@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Mar 31, 2000 09:36:51 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:53:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > He would, but that's not my problem. I hate him and think he's one of the > biggest arseholes in the world. > Agreed. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Mar 30 23:54:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00629 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:54:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E458F4.DDCB1284@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:51:16 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: <200003310724.JAA13171@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Possibly the two best fantasy series' of the last 50 years or so. The > > Belgariad and the Mallorean. Both are trilogies made up of 5 books. > > Absolutely fantastic, he has a way with words. Having said that, I'm not so > > keen on some of the other series' that he's written, so maybe it was just > > those... :) > > > I think I haven't readed nothing from it :( If you can, try. It's worth the effort it'll take to find the books. "Pawn of Prophecy" is the first book in "The Belgariad" series. "The Mallorean" continues from that. > > Yes, though I find his books too short personally. I'm a fast reader and I > > can quite easily go through a 200-page book in an hour. Which is a bad > > thing, believe me. :-/ > > > But just group each serie in a single book an you will get a large book. I > also read fast, a 200-page book it's a 'small' story for me ;) I want large > books of 1000-2000 pages (poor writers) :)) Same here. And then my arms get tired from holding it. :)) > I have readed three or four of his series. In fact they are all the same (same > hero, same enemies, same sad story). And I have 'Tales form RuneStaff' (or > something similar in name' in my home. I don't think much of his stories, though I am being a little harsh. I don't like small books. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 00:02:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00661 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:02:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:02:32 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks In-Reply-To: <38E442E9.68A55674@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > > Cameron Diaz > > > DEFINITELY! :) > > Definitely *NOT*. She's total trailer trash! > Maybe so, but she's trailer trash with nice tits. :) I'll take the tits, but the rest I can leave. > BTW, what is "trailer trash"? Ah. This is some Americanism. Here's the background: In the southeastern and southern midwestern US (Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, parts of Texas, parts of Georgia, etc...) is where all the stupid, inbred, low life, scum of the earth live. We refer to them as rednecks or white trash. They can't afford real homes, so they buy trailers. So the term "trailer trash" means the low life scums who live in trailer parks. Beer drinkin'. Shootin' guns. Makin' moonshine. Getting pregnant at 14. Sleeping with your sister (or brother). All part of being a trailer trash redneck. People who aren't worth a damn... Ever wonder why when tornadoes hit in the US that so many trailer parks are nailed? Tornado alley just so happens to have all the trailer trash in one place. I actually think that trailer parks actually cause tornadoes! > So, SMG reminds you of your niece? So... about your niece... ;) Heh. She's interning on the David Letterman show right now, and she actually made it in an episode (well, at least her legs did). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 00:07:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00683 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:07:55 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E44CC5.3C8BB8CA@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > 8% more horizontal lines of resolution and 5FPS slower than NTSC? People > > wouldn't notice it anyway. No thanks. It flickers bad enough at 60HZ let > > alone 50HZ, and yes, I've seen PAL and NTSC side by side on professional > > studio monitors and NTSC is far crisper and smoother. PAL Looks smeared > > and flickery by comparison. > You notice the difference in quality between US and UK TVs - 8% extra > vertical width makes a lot of difference. I'm actually talking studio production equipment. 8% Makes very little difference, and the only time the average person can tell is when they *ARE* side by side. Further strengthened by the fact that people actually use extended play on their VCRs even though it looks like shite! > flicker unless you're in a darkened room - and only usually then when you > look at the light from the TV on the wall. I can see it sometimes, depends > how tired I am. :) The problem is I can always see it. And it does have a fatiguing effect on people (subconcious effect). > I've also seen PAL and NTSC side by side - and NTSC on one of our TVs is > great (I don't know why but some TVs support it). NTSC is definitely better > than PAL - I'm not going to argue that. But the greater vertical width is > highly noticable. It's the difference between 320x200 and 320x240 - quite > noticable. No, that's 17% more lines, not 8% viewable. And no, 8% doesn't make that much difference - even side by side. I also wouldn't say that NTSC is necessarily better than PAL. They're both barely tolerable standards. > But proof, if needed, is just watch any on of the US shows that they show > over in the UK (usually chat shows, I don't know why they bother - but it > can be anything). Quite often the quality is completely shit. And so is the > program usually. Ever thought about the fact that the conversion might be shite? > "Go Jerry! Go Jerry!" :-/ Hey! That's a perfect example of trailer trash! They get paid $5000 to talk about their lesbian nazi hooker sisters with whom they've had a kid! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 00:08:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00694 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:08:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:08:39 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: <38E45593.7D7A4727@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > He would, but that's not my problem. I hate him and think he's one of the > biggest arseholes in the world. > Which reminds me, two more to add to my list: Two assholes? > Claire Danes Nah. > Heather Graham Makes me *RANDY*, baby, yeah! ;-) So whaddya think of Austin Powers? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 00:11:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00722 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:11:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:11:14 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by synthcom.com id AAA00719 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >And Darks Jedis are a lot > >of stronger than Light ones so they didn´t have a chance ;) > According to Yoda the Dark Side doesn't make one stronger. Speaking of Yoda and general humor: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/ripped.jpg And this one: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/edgell.jpg ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 00:32:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00868 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:32:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E461DC.55298234@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:29:16 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > > Definitely *NOT*. She's total trailer trash! > > Maybe so, but she's trailer trash with nice tits. :) > > I'll take the tits, but the rest I can leave. I wonder if you can get a discount then? ;)) > > BTW, what is "trailer trash"? > > Ah. This is some Americanism. Here's the background: > > In the southeastern and southern midwestern US (Arkansas, Missouri, > Oklahoma, parts of Texas, parts of Georgia, etc...) is where all the > stupid, inbred, low life, scum of the earth live. We refer to them as > rednecks or white trash. They can't afford real homes, so they buy > trailers. So the term "trailer trash" means the low life scums who live in > trailer parks. Ah, I know what you mean now. I've only seen things like that in films, though. Like "Mars Attacks". I mention that only because I watched it last weekend... > Beer drinkin'. Shootin' guns. Makin' moonshine. Getting pregnant at 14. > Sleeping with your sister (or brother). All part of being a trailer trash > redneck. People who aren't worth a damn... Hmm. Seems a strange way of life. > Ever wonder why when tornadoes hit in the US that so many trailer parks > are nailed? Tornado alley just so happens to have all the trailer trash in > one place. I actually think that trailer parks actually cause tornadoes! Do you never think that it's natures way of getting rid of the garbage? :) > > So, SMG reminds you of your niece? So... about your niece... ;) > > Heh. She's interning on the David Letterman show right now, and she > actually made it in an episode (well, at least her legs did). Really? Cool. I've seen a few of those shows. I'm pretty sure that they show some even over here in Germany (on cable), though I'm not 100% sure about that. They show some every Friday night back in the UK though. Can't say I've ever watched it though... Either way, sounds like a good way to get into the media business. I take it that's what she wants to do? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 00:35:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00882 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:35:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E462F4.89D6E36@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:33:56 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Which reminds me, two more to add to my list: > > Two assholes? Between them, yeah. And if not... oh dear. :) > > Claire Danes > > Nah. Yeah. ;) > > Heather Graham > > Makes me *RANDY*, baby, yeah! ;-) > > So whaddya think of Austin Powers? Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Very, very funny - both of them. I know that sometimes he (Mike Myers) is trying to take the piss out of Britain, but I think it's very funny. Both of the films are better than the Waynes World series, IMO. Though that is also pretty funny too. :) "Yeah, baby, yeah!" and "Do I make you randy, baby, do I?" Though I think the funniest sketch so far in either films is the penis enlarger (first film). I almost collapsed at that point. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 01:03:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00939 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:03:42 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks In-Reply-To: <38E461DC.55298234@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > rednecks or white trash. They can't afford real homes, so they buy > > trailers. So the term "trailer trash" means the low life scums who live in > > trailer parks. > Ah, I know what you mean now. I've only seen things like that in films, > though. Like "Mars Attacks". I mention that only because I watched it last > weekend... Bingo. Bad movie, though. Didn't even come close to the comic books. > > Beer drinkin'. Shootin' guns. Makin' moonshine. Getting pregnant at 14. > > Sleeping with your sister (or brother). All part of being a trailer trash > > redneck. People who aren't worth a damn... > Hmm. Seems a strange way of life. I guess when you don't have any money and there's no big city to go to, the only thing to do is sleep with everyone in the trailer park and shag sheep. And drink. And smoke cigarettes. > > are nailed? Tornado alley just so happens to have all the trailer trash in > > one place. I actually think that trailer parks actually cause tornadoes! > Do you never think that it's natures way of getting rid of the garbage? :) The problem is that it doesn't go away. IT just gets strewn all over the countryside. ;-0 > Either way, sounds like a good way to get into the media business. I take > it that's what she wants to do? She's a communications major, and what better way? She's a real life "Felicity" or "Time of your life" if you get those shows where you are. They're campy "girl coming of age and finding herself" shows. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 01:04:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00948 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:04:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:04:53 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: <38E462F4.89D6E36@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Very, very funny - both of them. I know > that sometimes he (Mike Myers) is trying to take the piss out of Britain, What does "take the piss out of" mean? > but I think it's very funny. Both of the films are better than the Waynes > World series, IMO. Though that is also pretty funny too. :) Yes, I think I like the Spy who Shagged me btter than the first. Fat bastard is a riot: "Where's your *SHITTER*?! I've got a tutle head pokin' out!" I completely lost it when I heard this... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 01:06:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00960 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:06:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E46638.A812D598@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:47:52 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > You notice the difference in quality between US and UK TVs - 8% extra > > vertical width makes a lot of difference. > > I'm actually talking studio production equipment. 8% Makes very little > difference, and the only time the average person can tell is when they > *ARE* side by side. Further strengthened by the fact that people actually > use extended play on their VCRs even though it looks like shite! Firstly: I meant "vertical height". Just noticed that. :) If the average person can't see 8% then I'm not average because I notice these things very easily. And I also *never* use the "long play" modes because the quality goes down so sharply. > > flicker unless you're in a darkened room - and only usually then when you > > look at the light from the TV on the wall. I can see it sometimes, depends > > how tired I am. :) > > The problem is I can always see it. And it does have a fatiguing effect on > people (subconcious effect). I can't see it in a well lit room (such as in daylight), but I do notice it in a darker room. I put it down to me being tired, but it could just be more noticable in that condition. > > I've also seen PAL and NTSC side by side - and NTSC on one of our TVs is > > great (I don't know why but some TVs support it). NTSC is definitely better > > than PAL - I'm not going to argue that. But the greater vertical width is > > highly noticable. It's the difference between 320x200 and 320x240 - quite > > noticable. > > No, that's 17% more lines, not 8% viewable. And no, 8% doesn't make that > much difference - even side by side. I also wouldn't say that NTSC is > necessarily better than PAL. They're both barely tolerable standards. Of course, but NTSC does hurt the eyes less. Hmm. How many lines are on your TV? I know it's between 580 and 600 for ours. > > But proof, if needed, is just watch any on of the US shows that they show > > over in the UK (usually chat shows, I don't know why they bother - but it > > can be anything). Quite often the quality is completely shit. And so is the > > program usually. > > Ever thought about the fact that the conversion might be shite? Yes. But then I've seen videos of US shows (my parents have a dual format VCR) that also look crap. The odds are against them being high quality. :) > > "Go Jerry! Go Jerry!" :-/ > > Hey! That's a perfect example of trailer trash! They get paid $5000 to > talk about their lesbian nazi hooker sisters with whom they've had a kid! Is it? Ooh, I know what trailer trash is! I know what it is! ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 01:15:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00980 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:15:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:15:04 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes In-Reply-To: <38E46638.A812D598@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > difference, and the only time the average person can tell is when they > > *ARE* side by side. Further strengthened by the fact that people actually > > use extended play on their VCRs even though it looks like shite! > Firstly: I meant "vertical height". Just noticed that. :) Uh, the aspect ratios are the same, so the only thing we're talking about is # of horizontal lines. > If the average person can't see 8% then I'm not average because I notice > these things very easily. And I also *never* use the "long play" modes > because the quality goes down so sharply. I can't even tolerate standard play VHS. It has to be S-VHS *MINIMUM*. But then again, I've got a 53" screen so you tend to notice crappy sources. > > No, that's 17% more lines, not 8% viewable. And no, 8% doesn't make that > > much difference - even side by side. I also wouldn't say that NTSC is > > necessarily better than PAL. They're both barely tolerable standards. > Of course, but NTSC does hurt the eyes less. Hmm. How many lines are on > your TV? I know it's between 580 and 600 for ours. NTSC Is 525 Lines - 500 of which are viewable. PAL Is 576. > > > can be anything). Quite often the quality is completely shit. And so is the > > > program usually. > > Ever thought about the fact that the conversion might be shite? > Yes. But then I've seen videos of US shows (my parents have a dual format > VCR) that also look crap. The odds are against them being high quality. :) VHS I would assume, which is 240 lines of horizontal resolution. I'm talking about a *DECENT* video source. The broadcast video quality is quite good here when the cable company doesn't fuck up the reception. > > > "Go Jerry! Go Jerry!" :-/ > > Hey! That's a perfect example of trailer trash! They get paid $5000 to > > talk about their lesbian nazi hooker sisters with whom they've had a kid! > Is it? Ooh, I know what trailer trash is! I know what it is! ;)) Yep. That show is a trailer trash magnet! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 01:35:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01026 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:35:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E470ED.95EEB7CC@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:33:33 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Very, very funny - both of them. I know > > that sometimes he (Mike Myers) is trying to take the piss out of Britain, > > What does "take the piss out of" mean? Ah, a Briticism (I've invented a new word!). To "take the piss out of" is to wind something or someone up - to tease them, if you will. > > but I think it's very funny. Both of the films are better than the Waynes > > World series, IMO. Though that is also pretty funny too. :) > > Yes, I think I like the Spy who Shagged me btter than the first. Fat > bastard is a riot: > > "Where's your *SHITTER*?! I've got a tutle head pokin' out!" > > I completely lost it when I heard this... Yes, that was funny. I prefer the second to the first - though I don't think Dr. Evil is as funny in the second. And I did exactly the same as you in this case. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 01:36:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01035 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:36:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:36:19 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Digital camera - wow! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I just bought a Kodak DC-290 camera and I'm extremely impressed. Check out this photo that I just picked up the camera and clicked a picture: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/stinky.jpg This is Stinky, my cat. Notice the incredible amount of detail that this camera has. Wow! I've also photographed a picture of my office that I sit in and work: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/office.jpg And my home theater: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/theater.jpg And my arcade: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/arcade1.jpg http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/arcade2.jpg http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/arcade3.jpg These are all really big files but you'll get an idea of what a bonehead amateur like me can do with a camera just by pulling it out of the box! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 01:47:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01074 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:47:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E473A3.60CEDB6@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:45:07 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Firstly: I meant "vertical height". Just noticed that. :) > > Uh, the aspect ratios are the same, so the only thing we're talking about > is # of horizontal lines. Yes. If you increase the # of horizontal lines, you increase the vertical height. Not vertical width which is what I originally wrote. That makes no sense. :) > > If the average person can't see 8% then I'm not average because I notice > > these things very easily. And I also *never* use the "long play" modes > > because the quality goes down so sharply. > > I can't even tolerate standard play VHS. It has to be S-VHS *MINIMUM*. But > then again, I've got a 53" screen so you tend to notice crappy sources. Yes, you would. I bet games play nicely on a 53" TV. Hmm, I bet that DVD looks crap on that. That would make it so easy to see all the artifacts that you wouldn't normally notice... > > > No, that's 17% more lines, not 8% viewable. And no, 8% doesn't make that > > > much difference - even side by side. I also wouldn't say that NTSC is > > > necessarily better than PAL. They're both barely tolerable standards. > > Of course, but NTSC does hurt the eyes less. Hmm. How many lines are on > > your TV? I know it's between 580 and 600 for ours. > > NTSC Is 525 Lines - 500 of which are viewable. PAL Is 576. 576, that's the one. Not above 580. Oops. :) > > > Ever thought about the fact that the conversion might be shite? > > Yes. But then I've seen videos of US shows (my parents have a dual format > > VCR) that also look crap. The odds are against them being high quality. :) > > VHS I would assume, which is 240 lines of horizontal resolution. I'm > talking about a *DECENT* video source. The broadcast video quality is > quite good here when the cable company doesn't fuck up the reception. VHS, yes. Not the best source in the world, but I can compare it with things recorded over here. Of course you've got to take different heads and different tape into account so it's not really a fair test. I'll see for myself when I head over to the US (hopefully!) this year. > > > Hey! That's a perfect example of trailer trash! They get paid $5000 to > > > talk about their lesbian nazi hooker sisters with whom they've had a kid! > > Is it? Ooh, I know what trailer trash is! I know what it is! ;)) > > Yep. That show is a trailer trash magnet! I agree now I know what it is. :) Hmm - not forgetting "Go Ricky! Go Ricky!". :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 01:49:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01083 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:49:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E47410.C6F95238@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:46:56 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Ah, I know what you mean now. I've only seen things like that in films, > > though. Like "Mars Attacks". I mention that only because I watched it last > > weekend... > > Bingo. Bad movie, though. Didn't even come close to the comic books. Bad movie, yes. But it has Natalie Portman in it. ;) > > Hmm. Seems a strange way of life. > > I guess when you don't have any money and there's no big city to go to, > the only thing to do is sleep with everyone in the trailer park and shag > sheep. And drink. And smoke cigarettes. I guess so. It's just not something I could do. I like my computer too much! > > Do you never think that it's natures way of getting rid of the garbage? :) > > The problem is that it doesn't go away. IT just gets strewn all over the > countryside. ;-0 I didn't say it worked. ;) > > Either way, sounds like a good way to get into the media business. I take > > it that's what she wants to do? > > She's a communications major, and what better way? She's a real life > "Felicity" or "Time of your life" if you get those shows where you are. > They're campy "girl coming of age and finding herself" shows. I don't know the shows, but I guess I know what you mean. And I agree - what better way to get a communications major? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 02:58:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01365 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:57:15 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I forgot Sarah Michelle Gellar... She's nice too. :) As long as you're not a vampire ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 02:58:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01369 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:01:31 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> I don't remember to know about 'David Eddings', what has he written? >Possibly the two best fantasy series' of the last 50 years or so. The >Belgariad and the Mallorean. Both are trilogies made up of 5 books. >Absolutely fantastic, he has a way with words. Having said that, I'm not so >keen on some of the other series' that he's written, so maybe it was just >those... :) Still have no idea... >Yes, though I find his books too short personally. I'm a fast reader and I >can quite easily go through a 200-page book in an hour. Which is a bad >thing, believe me. :-/ Oh shit, this is *fast*! So you must be able to read the "Lord of the Rings" in 6 hours! I think it took me one week to read that one... My record was 6 Star Wars books in two weeks IIRC. >I don't know whether I'm an expert, but I'd like to think I am. :) I bet you don't know the German fantasy authors ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 03:09:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01393 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:09:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E486D4.F9A24ED9@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:07:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Yes, though I find his books too short personally. I'm a fast reader > >and I can quite easily go through a 200-page book in an hour. Which is a bad > >thing, believe me. :-/ > > Oh shit, this is *fast*! So you must be able to read the "Lord of the > Rings" in 6 hours! I think it took me one week to read that one... > My record was 6 Star Wars books in two weeks IIRC. The complete trilogy? No, unless I really like it then I can't sit and read for 6 hours... > >I don't know whether I'm an expert, but I'd like to think I am. :) > > I bet you don't know the German fantasy authors ;-) German fantasy authors? Are they the ones who write about how great Germany is? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 03:21:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01414 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E489CD.95A3AA4F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:19:41 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Digital camera - wow! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I just bought a Kodak DC-290 camera and I'm extremely impressed. Check out > this photo that I just picked up the camera and clicked a picture: > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/stinky.jpg > > This is Stinky, my cat. Notice the incredible amount of detail that this > camera has. Wow! I've also photographed a picture of my office that I sit > in and work: AAAAAAARRRGGGGHHHH! AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH! HUGE CAT! ;) No, really, there's a lot of detail there. Looks good! Heh, and you can play MAME on it too, can't you? ;) > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/office.jpg Looks incredibly like mine (no case on it) - although you've got two. I've only got the one... > And my home theater: > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/theater.jpg Niiiice! Is that a Pro-Logic setup or a 5.1/DTS setup? > And my arcade: > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/arcade1.jpg This is where you see where the camera starts to fail (probably also due to JPG format) - look at the dithering and artifacts on the wall... > These are all really big files but you'll get an idea of what a bonehead > amateur like me can do with a camera just by pulling it out of the box! I'm impressed, I have to say. :) And now you have to send a picture of your SMG-look-a-like niece! ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 03:34:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01450 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:34:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:18:31 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I was joking, I know RISC OS. I've used it a lot when I was using some old >Archimedes computers back when I was in high school... Oops, you mentioned that some time earlier but I just forgot it... >TV sets in Europe (and most of the world) should be 50Hz, in fact. You only >get 60Hz in places like the US and Japan. But we make up for it by having >more definition on our TVs. :) Sure, unless you have a telly with 100Hz ;-) >Is that SCSI or IDE? It must be SCSI because if it's IDE, there's something >up with BeOS. It's SCSI of course! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 03:34:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01461 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:32:49 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I know this. >What I means is all Jedi Knights were killed but Obi-Wan and Yoda. And in some >books there are also other lost Jedis. For example I remember a clone from an >old Knight and also a number of Dark Knights. I guess you mean Joruus C'abot (sp?). So you've read the Thrawn trilogy. >I'm talking about the facts :) >If the writer makes the heroe win although it is weaker this doesn't make the >bad guy being more powerful. Hehe. >In fact in the books I have readed seems Luke has more luck than other thing. >It's better he would become a Jedi professor and let new Jedis fight agains dark >forces. It seems a bad copy of Obi-Wan with less age. BTW, Obi-Wan is my favourite Jedi and I think Ewen McGregor was a good pick for that role. Did you know that he is the nephew of Denis Lawson, who played Wedge Antilles in the original trilogy? >I think I remember something like this ... but my memory is really bad :( I have to admit that I forgot most details of the comics... >I don't remember now if I have readed "I, Jedi", knowing Spanish translators they >can have changed the title, and my memory is really bad. You'd know if you read "I, Jedi": The main character is Corran Horn and it's the only Star Wars book told in first person. >And the star crusher Oops, forgot that one. Maybe because Kyp Durron isn't my favourite character. >and planet destroyers and a lot of more weapons. Planet destroyers? Do you mean world devastators? >I remember >there was a scientist facility hidden with the Death Star Prototype. Yeah, but the prototype was much smaller than the Death Star and it only was a skeleton. >I think I'm readed something from Zahn. But I can't just remember. Finally there are >only a few imperial forces resting. You surely have read Zahn's Thrawn trilogy. >I remember that woman admiral (I just don't remember >her name) who finally becomes in a kind of piracy band. Admiral Daala? >And helps Luke and friends!! Daala helps Luke? Have I missed something?? >It was sad when Thrawn died ..., it was a good enemy, perhaps the better general of the >Empire ... The Zahn duology "Specter of the Past" and "Vison of the Future" is about Thraw again but it's really a fake. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 03:34:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01465 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:34:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:21:48 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >What I think is perhaps I won't want to see the second prequel. Episode II >seems to be a love story between Anakin and ???, I don't remember who. You mean Queen Amidala aka Padme. She'll be the mother of Luke and Leia. >But do >you think he will do Episode III. In Episode III Anakin has to become Darth >Vader, Palpatine the Emperor a lot of people killed. I think this is far from >the kind of movie is Episode I, perhaps would be an adventures movie but it >isn't a movie for laugh. Episode II will be a bit like The Empire Strikes Back and Episode III will be even darker ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 03:34:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01472 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Books Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:35:52 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'm readed Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion and perhaps some more but I don't >remember. I think LOTR it's a good book but I like more The Hobbit and >Silmarillion. The last book of LOTR it's too sad, too slow and too boring for >me. I can accept the good ones being defeated but not support the Frodo's quest >to destroy the ring, he really didn't nothing!!. The best thing in LOTR were the dialogs between Merry and Pippin and Logolas and Gimli. >I like a lot sagas, so the best book for me is Silmarillion. And you can learn >about all what happened in Middle-Earth. Indeed. >"Endor" brings me something to my head, but I can't just remember ... Just think of the forest moon in The Return of the Jedi ;-) >I remember I have readed something from Ian Banks, but I can't remember this >title, perhaps are this fucking Spanish translators ... I readed some books >from a serie were large's IAs and humans live in large Space Ships ... The one I have is about a strange weapon called the "Lazy Gun". Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 03:48:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01505 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:48:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E4903A.95ECFA8F@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:47:06 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > > You mean Queen Amidala aka Padme. She'll be the mother of Luke and > Leia. > Yes I know, but I wasn´t sure. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 03:51:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01517 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:51:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E4912F.C8374F43@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:51:11 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > >I know this. > >What I means is all Jedi Knights were killed but Obi-Wan and Yoda. > And in some > >books there are also other lost Jedis. For example I remember a clone > from an > >old Knight and also a number of Dark Knights. > > I guess you mean Joruus C'abot (sp?). So you've read the Thrawn > trilogy. > Yes, I do :) > >In fact in the books I have readed seems Luke has more luck than other > thing. > >It's better he would become a Jedi professor and let new Jedis fight > agains dark > >forces. It seems a bad copy of Obi-Wan with less age. > > BTW, Obi-Wan is my favourite Jedi and I think Ewen McGregor was a good > pick for that role. Did you know that he is the nephew of Denis Lawson, > who played Wedge Antilles in the original trilogy? Really? > >I don't remember now if I have readed "I, Jedi", knowing Spanish > translators they > >can have changed the title, and my memory is really bad. > > You'd know if you read "I, Jedi": The main character is Corran Horn and > it's the only Star Wars book told in first person. > Then I haven´t readed it. I will try to find it. > >and planet destroyers and a lot of more weapons. > > Planet destroyers? Do you mean world devastators? > Yes, I´m bad translating from spanish to english :) > >I remember that woman admiral (I just don't remember > >her name) who finally becomes in a kind of piracy band. > > Admiral Daala? > > >And helps Luke and friends!! > > Daala helps Luke? Have I missed something?? > Yes. I don´t remember in what book. I will search. What I remember is that happens more than ten years later, Anakin (the son of Leia and Solo) is 6 or so years old. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 04:16:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01576 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:12:35 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Think about this, Di Caprio being Anakin :) He will surely not, because after the first rumours that he might play Anakin most people on the web said they wouldn't watch the film if he does. So Lucas won't cast him, but it was a nice shock anyway. >God thanks finally he didn't want to do this movie. I think Di Caprio would have >killed StarWars Saga for ever ... Too true. >I'm sure he will let the better/worst for the end. Well, we all know how the prequels will end so the interesting thing will be what makes Anakin to change sides. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 04:16:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01583 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:16:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:14:34 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> God thanks finally he didn't want to do this movie. I think Di Caprio would have >> killed StarWars Saga for ever ... >He would, but that's not my problem. I hate him and think he's one of the >biggest arseholes in the world. True! I don't know why so many chicks like him! But I guess if I could understand the girls I wouldn't be solo... >Claire Danes But she played with Leo too! >Heather Graham I think NB already mentioned her. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 04:51:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01647 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:51:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:29:51 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Speaking of Yoda and general humor: >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/ripped.jpg Now we know why Yoda speaks that way: he's constantly stoned! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 04:51:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01657 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:51:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:35:14 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >German fantasy authors? Are they the ones who write about how great Germany >is? ;) I guess you already know me good enough that I wouldn't talk about such crap! But have you ever heard of Michael Ende or Wolfgang Hohlbein? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 04:51:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01664 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:51:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:33:41 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >But it has Natalie Portman in it. ;) Is that a typical British saying? David McEwen also used statements like these a lot! ;-) >I guess so. It's just not something I could do. I like my computer too >much! Are you already engaged? ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 04:51:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01671 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:51:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:48:28 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id EAA01668 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Then I haven´t readed it. I will try to find it. "I, Jedi" is the best Star Wars book IMO. You might want to read the first four books of the X-Wing series to know how the characters are. These are also some of my favorite books, maybe becaused the overused characters like Han, Luke, and Leia only appear very seldom. The important people in the first few X-Wing books are Corran Horn, Wedge Antilles, and various other new pilots. >Yes, I´m bad translating from spanish to english :) Much better than my Spanish! And compared to Pedro Almodovar your English is perfect! ;-) >> Daala helps Luke? Have I missed something?? >Yes. I don´t remember in what book. I will search. What I remember is that >happens more than ten years later, Anakin >(the son of Leia and Solo) is 6 or so years old. Either I forgot about that book or it's in one of those I haven't read yet. In that time period (after the first appearance of Admiral Daala in the Jedi Academy Trilogy) these are only "Planet of Twilight", "X- Wing: Starfighters of Adumar", and the Junior and Young Jedi Knigth books. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 04:51:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01678 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:51:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Digital camera - wow! Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:31:10 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/stinky.jpg >This is Stinky, my cat. Notice the incredible amount of detail that this >camera has. Attack of the monster cats! >Wow! I've also photographed a picture of my office that I sit >in and work: >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/office.jpg I'm pleased that I'm not the only one who has such a mess... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 08:46:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02229 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:46:14 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Digital camera - wow! In-Reply-To: <38E489CD.95A3AA4F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > No, really, there's a lot of detail there. Looks good! Heh, and you can > play MAME on it too, can't you? ;) Nope, not that I'm aware of! > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/office.jpg > Looks incredibly like mine (no case on it) - although you've got two. I've > only got the one... I didn't put the other two rooms in the photo. ;-) > > And my home theater: > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/theater.jpg > Niiiice! Is that a Pro-Logic setup or a 5.1/DTS setup? 5.1 (no rear speakers). The fronts are so good at imaging that surround speakers are *NOT* needed. > > And my arcade: > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/arcade1.jpg > This is where you see where the camera starts to fail (probably also due to > JPG format) - look at the dithering and artifacts on the wall... That's the JPG format. I can do uncompressed, too, but the pictures are bloody huge! > And now you have to send a picture of your SMG-look-a-like niece! ;)) When she returns from New York, I'll do that. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Mar 31 09:17:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02360 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:17:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:26:23 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Time for my 2 cents again =P Star Wars books: Han Solo at Stars End Han Solo's Revenge -- this series was quite good. The author does a Han Solo and the Lost Legacy -- great job of getting the characters right Lando Trilogy -- this one is much like the previous one, excellent set of characters Splinter of the Minds Eye -- written between Empire and Jedi I believe, no longer canon since it has Luke thinking about getting it on with Leia... Courtship of Princess Leia -- not bad, rancors are always fun Thrawn Trilogy -- Zahn is the best SW author at the moment, period. Dark Empire -- Decent art, story relies a bit too much on the old superweapons DE2, Empires End -- Two more comics which I haven't read. Pull the same tricks Children of the Jedi -- introduces that bitch Callista, mediocre book Darksaber -- This one is fairly cliche like the rest of the crap Anderson spews out The Crystal Star -- this one was a bit strange, but liveable XWing novels -- the ones I've read were great, this guy has potential The Black Fleet Trilogy -- barely stomachable politics. Author seems to be trying for Thrawn level politics and fails miserably Corellian Trilogy -- wasn't as bad as it could have been... Haven't read the newest Han Solo Trilogy Tales from the -- all of these are good. Authors seem to do a bit better when they are working with characters most people have little knowledge of... Bounty Hunter Wars -- Seems to be a decent enough Fett, kind of soft though... Jedi Acadamy Trilogy -- Anderson should not be allowed to write SW books. This trilogy falls back on a standard run of the mill superweapon that just happens to be invulnerable. Character development is almost nonexistant. He seems to think everyone will forget that Mara's hair is red, so he mentions it every other sentance. Qui Xux is about as improbable as they come. Daala is a sick joke, if she had really been an Admiral she would not have fucked up to the degree she fucked up. Hell, not even Ozzel screwed up as much as her... Newest Thrawn books -- it's about %&#*#$#@ time.... Vector Prime -- I have a mixed opinion on this one. The writing is decent, and he's the first author since Zahn to do some MAJOR development on main characters, but I think he goes a bit to the extremes... villians are good though. Only read a few of the Young Jedi Knights books, seems to be more Anderson shovelware... If you want to check out some fanfiction, the Dark Ring / Return of the Empire are nice. Find those over at www.fanfix.com John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 01:18:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05202 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 01:18:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 01:18:57 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Soo.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com What shall the topic be this week? We already covered graphics, controllers, and dynarec, Star Wars, how much we all hate the French ( ;-) ) and something about shagging sheep. How about this as a question: How are US citizens viewed by the countries you're all from? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 03:40:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA07951 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 03:40:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 04:12:00 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Time for my 2 cents again =P Looks like a bit more than 2 cents ;-) >Han Solo at Stars End >Han Solo's Revenge -- this series was quite good. The author does a >Han Solo and the Lost Legacy -- great job of getting the characters right It's long since I read these. I think the author died one or two year ago... >Lando Trilogy -- this one is much like the previous one, excellent set of > characters I think I have to read these again two since I forgot too much about the two trilogies. >Splinter of the Minds Eye -- written between Empire and Jedi I believe, no > longer canon since it has Luke thinking about > getting it on with Leia... Nope, it came out shortly after the first film which is the reason why it doesn't fit into the rest of the trilogy. It also brought up the rumours that Alan Dean Foster might have been the ghost writer of the Star Wars novel. BTW, the story Splinter of the Minds Eye is closer to the first darft of the Star Wars screenplay where a crystal was the main source of the Force. This idea was later taken over as one story element of The Dark Crystal, which had the same producer as Star Wars ;-) >Courtship of Princess Leia -- not bad, rancors are always fun It was quite nice, but a bit surprising to have all these witches... >Thrawn Trilogy -- Zahn is the best SW author at the moment, period. I read it twice to compare it with Michael Stackpole's work and I didn't like it that much the second time, but maybe I have to read an untranslated copy. >Dark Empire -- Decent art, story relies a bit too much on the old > superweapons It was a bit disappointing for me as I read the Dark Empire Sourcebook for the RPG by West End Games (now Wizards of the Coast took over the license) and it had much more interesting details. >DE2, Empires End -- Two more comics which I haven't read. Pull the same > tricks I haven't read these yet, mainly because I thought it to be a bit lame that the Emperor used the clone trick again... >Children of the Jedi -- introduces that bitch Callista, mediocre book That book was way too long, 500 pages for a story that could be told in 300 pages! It was also the reason why I didn't read Planet of Twilight be the same author yet. >Darksaber -- This one is fairly cliche like the rest of the crap Anderson > spews out Indeed, and he drove me nuts when Crix Madine was killed. >The Crystal Star -- this one was a bit strange, but liveable Yeah, strange and a bit boring... >XWing novels -- the ones I've read were great, this guy has potential There are two different authors actually. 1 to 4 and 8 are about Rogue squadron, were written by Michael Stackpole and are some of my favourites. I haven't read 5 to 7 by Aaron Allston yet, which feature the Wraith squadron which is also led by Wedge Antilles. If you like Michael Stackpole's books then you have to read "I, Jedi" which I consider to be one of the best Star Wars novels, but maybe I'm just to fond of Corran Horn, who is one of the best characters in that galaxy far far away. >The Black Fleet Trilogy -- barely stomachable politics. Author seems to be > trying for Thrawn level politics and fails > miserably I think the author must have run out of ideas and made a very rushed end. >Corellian Trilogy -- wasn't as bad as it could have been... It was nice to learn a bit more about Corellia but I found the story slightly confusing. >Haven't read the newest Han Solo Trilogy Neither did I. >Tales from the -- all of these are good. Authors seem to do a bit > better when they are working with characters > most people have little knowledge of... Yeah, the nice thing about these books is that you have short stories about not so well known characters which you recognize from the movies though. And the whole plot is around some famous scenes. One part I found really amusing. When in one story a Jawa buys a blaster and that story ends when he starts to open fire on some stormtroopers. And in the next story you learn that the guy who sold the blaster took out the battery pack before he handed it over - poor Jawa ;-) >Bounty Hunter Wars -- Seems to be a decent enough Fett, kind of soft > though... Haven't read it yet, but I head that it isn't that good. >Jedi Acadamy Trilogy -- Anderson should not be allowed to write SW books. Just my thought! But I think he's even the chief editor, or how they call it... > This trilogy falls back on a standard run of the > mill superweapon that just happens to be > invulnerable. Small, invulnerable, yet powerful - quite an oxymeron! > Character development is almost > nonexistant. I think so, and I don't like Kyp Durron anyway... > He seems to think everyone will > forget that Mara's hair is red, so he mentions it > every other sentance. Haven't noticed that but I bet you're right. > Qui Xux is about as > improbable as they come. Much too naive! > Daala is a sick joke, > if she had really been an Admiral she would not > have fucked up to the degree she fucked up. Hell, > not even Ozzel screwed up as much as her... Hehe, yeah. "Apologize accepted Kevin Anderson." ;-) >Newest Thrawn books -- it's about %&#*#$#@ time.... The best character is Pelleon but the rest was too much fake... And I knew what "The Hand of Thrawn" is long before they figured it out! >Vector Prime -- I have a mixed opinion on this one. The writing is decent, > and he's the first author since Zahn to do some MAJOR > development on main characters, but I think he goes a bit > to the extremes... villians are good though. This is one of the few books I read in the original version, and I had to get used to his writing style first. BTW, the other books I read in original version are: I Jedi, X-Wing 8, The Phantom Menace, Specter of the Past, and Vision of the Future. Translated books are just cheaper... I think it was a bad move to let Chewie die... You're right that the villians are the best part of the book, which is mainly due to their strange organic technology, although that idea isn't that new too... >Only read a few of the Young Jedi Knights books, seems to be more Anderson >shovelware... That's what I estimated and I'm too old for children books. Do these also feature babysitting droids with built-in blasters?? What else do I have what you haven't mentioned? Shadows of the Empire: One of the few books between episodes V and VI. It isn't bad, but could have been better given the fact that the main villian is the head of the Black Sun. It's also a bit illogic that the alliance let Luke and Leia perform some search for Han in Imperial City. I think it certainly wasn't worth the hype: Soundtrack, computer game, whatsoever... A Truce at Bakura: Plays only a few days after the battle of Endor. The alliance have to help an Imperial world against a powerful alien race. This is one of the better books. The New Rebellion: Isn't that bad, but it's strange that one of Luke's former students wants to be the ruler... The Phantom Menace: Terry Brooks' style is quite good and he tells us many details which weren't explained in the film (eg. how Anakin saved his racer "mostly"). I guess for those who know the film it won't be that interesting though. I read it before I saw the film. I forgot most details about the Tales of the Jedi comics, maybe I should read these again someday... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 05:03:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA08062 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 05:03:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:04:46 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >What shall the topic be this week? We already covered graphics, >controllers, and dynarec, Star Wars, how much we all hate the French ( ;-) >) and something about shagging sheep. I think you forgot some topics ;-) But we still seem to have some lurkers, which is quite astonishing! BTW, I want to greet all the lurkers from NSA, CIA, or what you are from ;-) >How about this as a question: How are US citizens viewed by the countries >you're all from? Do you really want to hear that? Do you know the comic Asterix? Obelix always would say: "They are crazy, the Romans!" - Well just exchange Romans with Americans ;-) Some Americans seem to think that everyone apart from them and maybe Japan are still living in the stone ages, but they have some backwardness themselves: - No good paper hankies, Cleanex (sp?) is a joke! - Washing machines don't heat up the water! When my brother-in-law asked someone in a shop if they had washing machines that heat up the water the guy looked at him as if he asked for a wonder. - Most of the American kitchen stoves would be forbidden in Germany because they're not safe enough. - Compared to most American houses our garden shed is very solid. - There shouldn't be any mental diseases in your family if you wnat to visit the US, maybe they think they already have enough mad people. - The American knowledge of Europe is somewhat limited - I'm talking about the average American and not you, of course! They think that they can see everithing interesting in Europe in one week because it's so much smaller than the US. - Bavarians always run around in leather pants, they think. - Germany is full of Nazis, although there should be much more in the US. - They are so fond of their history that they have a sign for every skirmish they know of. If we did that in Europe you couldn't walk a meter before running into the next sign. - Their history starts in 1776, in some rare cases even 1492. If you show them a house that was built before these dates they think it has to be a fake. I hope I didn't offend anyone. You're always free to write something about the German Barbarians of course ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 06:56:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08387 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:56:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006701bf9bea$4b956e00$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:42:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > BTW, Obi-Wan is my favourite Jedi and I think Ewen McGregor was a good > pick for that role. Did you know that he is the nephew of Denis Lawson, > who played Wedge Antilles in the original trilogy? Yes - but this was made into a big deal in Britain. It was reported everywhere. Mind you, Ewan always mentioned it in all of his interviews. :) What impressed me the most was that Ewan McGregor has a Scottish accent normally. He really copied the original Obi-Wans accent very well. > >I remember that woman admiral (I just don't remember > >her name) who finally becomes in a kind of piracy band. > > Admiral Daala? I think he could be talking about Mara Jade, in fact. > >And helps Luke and friends!! > > Daala helps Luke? Have I missed something?? But now I'm not so sure... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 06:56:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08395 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:56:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006801bf9bea$4d390be0$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:45:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > True! I don't know why so many chicks like him! But I guess if I could > understand the girls I wouldn't be solo... I'm guessing it's because he looks nice. It certainly can't be for any other reason! > >Claire Danes > > But she played with Leo too! Yeah, I know... :-/ > >Heather Graham > > I think NB already mentioned her. IIRC, that was Heather Locklear. Heather Graham was the girl out of "Austin Powers 2: The Spy Who Shagged Me". :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 06:56:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08404 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:56:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006901bf9bea$5033fc60$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:46:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >But it has Natalie Portman in it. ;) > > Is that a typical British saying? David McEwen also used statements > like these a lot! ;-) No idea who David McEwen is, but it's a sort of statement that I like making. Stupid, yet amusing. :) > >I guess so. It's just not something I could do. I like my computer too > >much! > > Are you already engaged? ;-) It appears that way. Every time I want it to do something demanding, it crashes. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 06:56:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08414 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006a01bf9bea$52b04700$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:47:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >German fantasy authors? Are they the ones who write about how great > Germany > >is? ;) > > I guess you already know me good enough that I wouldn't talk about such > crap! Germany is a nice place. It's over-rated by the Germans in general - but I think that's true of all countries. Especially France. :) > But have you ever heard of Michael Ende or Wolfgang Hohlbein? I've heard of Michael Ende, though I can't think of any of his work... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 06:56:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08422 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:56:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <006b01bf9bea$53e78e80$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Digital camera - wow! Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:51:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > No, really, there's a lot of detail there. Looks good! Heh, and you can > > play MAME on it too, can't you? ;) > > Nope, not that I'm aware of! Oh - I thought it was one of those that you could. Wrong again! :) > > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/office.jpg > > Looks incredibly like mine (no case on it) - although you've got two. I've > > only got the one... > > I didn't put the other two rooms in the photo. ;-) Grr. ;) > > > And my home theater: > > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/theater.jpg > > Niiiice! Is that a Pro-Logic setup or a 5.1/DTS setup? > > 5.1 (no rear speakers). The fronts are so good at imaging that surround > speakers are *NOT* needed. Although you've probably mentioned it before, what speakers are they? I've just bought myself a 5.1 setup today - though I have to wait until next weekend to get my speakers. I've got the amp though, which is a bit of a bugger really, all things considered. :) > > > And my arcade: > > > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/arcade1.jpg > > This is where you see where the camera starts to fail (probably also due to > > JPG format) - look at the dithering and artifacts on the wall... > > That's the JPG format. I can do uncompressed, too, but the pictures are > bloody huge! And I wouldn't be too impressed at downloading them either. ;) > > And now you have to send a picture of your SMG-look-a-like niece! ;)) > > When she returns from New York, I'll do that. ;-) Well, I was joking. But if you're going to do it, I won't argue... ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 08:04:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08580 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:04:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 18:01:27 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes - but this was made into a big deal in Britain. It was reported >everywhere. Mind you, Ewan always mentioned it in all of his interviews. :) I bet so, it was his uncle who made him play. >What impressed me the most was that Ewan McGregor has a Scottish accent >normally. He really copied the original Obi-Wans accent very well. I haven't heard Ewan McGregor with his normal language before but I knew that he is Scottish and was very impressed that he had an almost snobistic English. IMO he and Ian McDiarmid were the best actors in the film anyway. >> Admiral Daala? >I think he could be talking about Mara Jade, in fact. Hey, that could be the solution! >> Daala helps Luke? Have I missed something?? >But now I'm not so sure... :) Well, I wasn't that sure because I really missed that Luke got married (to Mara of course). But now I'm back on track again ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 08:04:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08590 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Fakes Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 18:05:49 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Germany is a nice place. It's over-rated by the Germans in general - but I >think that's true of all countries. Especially France. :) Germany is not perfect, but it could be much worse... >I've heard of Michael Ende, though I can't think of any of his work... "Neverending Story" - Forget the film, the book is much better. "Momo" ... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 08:04:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08594 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars and chicks Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 18:04:19 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No idea who David McEwen is, David McEwen is for RISC OS what Richard Bannister is for Mac, ie. he ported about a dozen emulators and since I'm his only beta tester I have all of these ;-) >but it's a sort of statement that I like making. Stupid, yet amusing. :) He used that two: "But it has XYZ in it." ;-) >It appears that way. Every time I want it to do something demanding, it >crashes. ;) I guess a golden ring wouldn't help much in that case though ;-) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 11:14:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09037 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:14:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:23:17 -0800 (PST) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Michael Koenig wrote: > >Children of the Jedi -- introduces that bitch Callista, mediocre book > > That book was way too long, 500 pages for a story that could be told in > 300 pages! It was also the reason why I didn't read Planet of Twilight > be the same author yet. Ahh, I forgot about that one, it was more of the same. > >Darksaber -- This one is fairly cliche like the rest of the crap > Anderson > > spews out > > Indeed, and he drove me nuts when Crix Madine was killed. Forgot about him killing Madine... he is the embodiment of a crappy author. He doesn't have the balls to kill someone really big, nor the balls to even attempt some character development. > I haven't read 5 to 7 by Aaron Allston yet, which feature the Wraith > squadron which is also led by Wedge Antilles. The Wraith Squadron ones are pretty good, Booster Terrik has fun with a star destroyer... > If you like Michael Stackpole's books then you have to read "I, Jedi" > which I consider to be one of the best Star Wars novels, but maybe I'm > just to fond of Corran Horn, who is one of the best characters in that > galaxy far far away. Hmm, I've seen this one around, guess it's time to pick it up =P > >The Black Fleet Trilogy -- barely stomachable politics. Author seems > to be > > trying for Thrawn level politics and fails > > miserably > > I think the author must have run out of ideas and made a very rushed > end. I had that idea after the first couple of chapters =P > >Corellian Trilogy -- wasn't as bad as it could have been... > > It was nice to learn a bit more about Corellia but I found the story > slightly confusing. There are times when having the jedi kids outdoing everyone else at everything gets excessive =P > Yeah, the nice thing about these books is that you have short stories > about not so well known characters which you recognize from the movies > though. And the whole plot is around some famous scenes. Amazingly enough I think Anderson was the editor for these =) > stormtroopers. And in the next story you learn that the guy who sold > the blaster took out the battery pack before he handed it over - poor > Jawa ;-) Hehe, "DIE &*%$(@)#*%#)@'S! ... > I think it was a bad move to let Chewie die... I would definitely agree with you there. I'm betting that Lucas will de-canonize this one =P > You're right that the villians are the best part of the book, which is > mainly due to their strange organic technology, although that idea > isn't that new too... > > >Only read a few of the Young Jedi Knights books, seems to be more > Anderson > >shovelware... > > That's what I estimated and I'm too old for children books. Do these > also feature babysitting droids with built-in blasters?? Think Corellia trilogy > Shadows of the Empire: > One of the few books between episodes V and VI. It isn't bad, but could Never read this one, played the game though. > A Truce at Bakura: > Plays only a few days after the battle of Endor. The alliance have to > help an Imperial world against a powerful alien race. This is one of > the better books. This one seemed to bail out of any real major character development. Overall this one was good. > The New Rebellion: > Isn't that bad, but it's strange that one of Luke's former students > wants to be the ruler... Did not read this one. > The Phantom Menace: > Terry Brooks' style is quite good and he tells us many details which > weren't explained in the film (eg. how Anakin saved his racer > "mostly"). I guess for those who know the film it won't be that > interesting though. I read it before I saw the film. Hmm, Brooks did a fine job with those Elfstone books, looks like another one to check out... > I forgot most details about the Tales of the Jedi comics, maybe I > should read these again someday... Heh, the Marvel comics? The ones where Luke invariably scored a half dozen chicks that all died horribly before the end? The ones that got de-canonized? =) > Bye, > M.I.K.e > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other > ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. > John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Flatline Studios http://www.flatlinestudios.com Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 11:33:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09081 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:33:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:33:49 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >How about this as a question: How are US citizens viewed by the > >you're all from? > Do you really want to hear that? Sure! > Do you know the comic Asterix? Obelix always would say: "They are > crazy, the Romans!" - Well just exchange Romans with Americans ;-) Too true. > - No good paper hankies, Cleanex (sp?) is a joke! I'm not sure I understand... Kleenex is crap since it throws up lots of dust particles. I just use a towel or a paper towel! > - Washing machines don't heat up the water! When my brother-in-law > asked someone in a shop if they had washing machines that heat up the > water the guy looked at him as if he asked for a wonder. You mean washing machines in the US don't heat up the water? Mine surely doesn't - it takes a hot water tap out of the hot water that runs throughout our house. > - Most of the American kitchen stoves would be forbidden in Germany > because they're not safe enough. Really? How so? > - Compared to most American houses our garden shed is very solid. Considering that I and a *LOT* of Americans don't have them, I'll take your word for it. ;-) > - There shouldn't be any mental diseases in your family if you wnat to > visit the US, maybe they think they already have enough mad people. Is this an immigration rule or something? > - The American knowledge of Europe is somewhat limited - I'm talking > about the average American and not you, of course! They think that they > can see everithing interesting in Europe in one week because it's so > much smaller than the US. I have a feeling US citizens have less time on their hands than the rest of the world. Also, this might sound arrogant, but the US is the economic captial of the world and the "one to follow", so the attention is usually toward the US. US Citizens typically don't spend much time studying foreign countries because they are too distracted with their own lives. > - Bavarians always run around in leather pants, they think. Heh. Well, the weirdo Bavarians do. ;-) We have our share of leather pants wearing freaks here in the states. Just look at San Fransisco! > - Germany is full of Nazis, although there should be much more in the > US. That would be the Southeastern United States. Lots of "Neo Nazis" who are nothing more than white supremecist racist pricks. There's still a lot of racial bias in the south. Doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me (I'm from the Northwestern US). > - They are so fond of their history that they have a sign for every > skirmish they know of. If we did that in Europe you couldn't walk a > meter before running into the next sign. A sign for every skirmish? You mean like the Vietnam Memorial and shit like that? Yeah, we've got a bunch of those. That's because the "veterans" want to be remembered and recognized. Most people don't give a flying fuck about it. > - Their history starts in 1776, in some rare cases even 1492. If you > show them a house that was built before these dates they think it has > to be a fake. ???? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 11:34:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09090 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:34:20 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: <006801bf9bea$4d390be0$0a909090@okay> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >Heather Graham > > I think NB already mentioned her. > IIRC, that was Heather Locklear. Heather Graham was the girl out of "Austin > Powers 2: The Spy Who Shagged Me". :) No, I said Heather Graham. She's a hot one! Heather Locklear is cute, too, but she's getting up there in years. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 13:33:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09407 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 13:33:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 23:12:55 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No, I said Heather Graham. She's a hot one! Heather Locklear is cute, too, >but she's getting up there in years. Ah, so I was right. I was getting worried! I thought I could distinguish these two, but when NG said you had Locklear on your list I thought my internal RAM had some leaks again... Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 13:33:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09414 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 13:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 23:33:16 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Sure! What a brave man! ;-) >> Do you know the comic Asterix? Obelix always would say: "They are >> crazy, the Romans!" - Well just exchange Romans with Americans ;-) >Too true. I even have another one, but I don't know if I translate it correctly: America is often referred to as the "land of unlimited possibilities." And I say it's the "land of unlimited impossibilities." ;-) >I'm not sure I understand... Kleenex is crap since it throws up lots of >dust particles. I just use a towel or a paper towel! My mother always imports tons of "Softies", ask NG what it is... Actually my mother visits the US with very have luggage but when she comes back she sometimes puts the smaller suitcase into the larger one! About the only things she exports are: jeans (for my father, I prefer cord), Tabasco, jazz, and books (for me). >You mean washing machines in the US don't heat up the water? Mine surely >doesn't - it takes a hot water tap out of the hot water that runs >throughout our house. How hot can that water be? Some of our cloth is "cooked" 95 degrees centigrade, I think that's about 200 degrees fahrenheit. >> - Most of the American kitchen stoves would be forbidden in Germany >> because they're not safe enough. >Really? How so? My sister has a better stove now, but before she had one where the heating spirals were lying open and the controlls were in the back. This would be surely forbidden in Germany! >Considering that I and a *LOT* of Americans don't have them, I'll take >your word for it. ;-) But a stone house is quite expensive in the US, right? >Is this an immigration rule or something? I think you actually have to fill in a form asking you questions about mental diseases, AIDS, and so on every time when you visit the US. But I can ask my mother if you're interested. It's also a bit strange that my sister had to make a special driving test given the fact that in Germany you have to learn several weeks to drive and pay about 1500 dollars till you get your driving license! When you learn on an automatic car in Germany you even get a note in your license that you're only allowed to drive such cars, but I think in the US such cars are in the majority. >I have a feeling US citizens have less time on their hands than the rest >of the world. Also, this might sound arrogant, but the US is the economic >captial of the world and the "one to follow", so the attention is usually >toward the US. US Citizens typically don't spend much time studying >foreign countries because they are too distracted with their own lives. Actually that led to a big surprise in some firms when Asian firms was able to manufacture higher quality computer parts at a lower price... >Heh. Well, the weirdo Bavarians do. ;-) We have our share of leather pants >wearing freaks here in the states. Just look at San Fransisco! Yeah, but don't think we run around that way here ;-) >A sign for every skirmish? You mean like the Vietnam Memorial and shit >like that? Yeah, we've got a bunch of those. That's because the "veterans" >want to be remembered and recognized. Most people don't give a flying fuck >about it. No, I mean the skirmishes from the Independence War and the war between North and South - how do you call it? If we'd do that in Europe, or the rest of the world you couldn't build a single house because everything would be crowded with sings... >> - Their history starts in 1776, in some rare cases even 1492. If you >> show them a house that was built before these dates they think it has >> to be a fake. >???? Believe me it really was that way! I think the worst thing was when some Americans where invited to the 1000 year celebration of a city. They just couldn't believe it. And this only was the first mentioning of that city, only god knows when that city was founded! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 16:26:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09756 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:26:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:26:49 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I even have another one, but I don't know if I translate it correctly: > America is often referred to as the "land of unlimited possibilities." > And I say it's the "land of unlimited impossibilities." ;-) It's both, actually - depending upon what you want to do. There's no restriction on how far you can take things, but if you get too big, people tend to get pissy about it (I.E. Microsoft, Intel, etc...). > >You mean washing machines in the US don't heat up the water? Mine > >doesn't - it takes a hot water tap out of the hot water that runs > >throughout our house. > How hot can that water be? Some of our cloth is "cooked" 95 degrees > centigrade, I think that's about 200 degrees fahrenheit. Standard water is 190F, which is 87C, so close, yeah. > >> because they're not safe enough. > >Really? How so? > My sister has a better stove now, but before she had one where the > heating spirals were lying open and the controlls were in the back. > This would be surely forbidden in Germany! Those stoves haven't been made in at least 20 years. Controls are on the front these days. > >Considering that I and a *LOT* of Americans don't have them, I'll take > >your word for it. ;-) > But a stone house is quite expensive in the US, right? Uh... I dunno - I never have checked! But brick houses are more expensive, yes... > >Is this an immigration rule or something? > I think you actually have to fill in a form asking you questions about > mental diseases, AIDS, and so on every time when you visit the US. But > I can ask my mother if you're interested. That's there to deter getting the crazies into the country. I surely don't want any more wackos than we've already got. > It's also a bit strange that my sister had to make a special driving > test given the fact that in Germany you have to learn several weeks to > drive and pay about 1500 dollars till you get your driving license! Sure, but driving laws here are different than they are in Germany, and that's all the driver's license/tests are really for - so you know them. They do NOT teach you how to drive. > When you learn on an automatic car in Germany you even get a note in > your license that you're only allowed to drive such cars, but I think > in the US such cars are in the majority. Automatics? Nah - they're about 50/50. I don't think the driving tests are stringent enough. They ought to have emergency situations accounted for (meaning actual testing of reaction of emergency situations) and spend a 6 week course on how to handle your fucking vehicle. They'll give any moron a driver's license around here. I much prefer Germany's approach. > >I have a feeling US citizens have less time on their hands than the > >of the world. Also, this might sound arrogant, but the US is the > >captial of the world and the "one to follow", so the attention is > >toward the US. US Citizens typically don't spend much time studying > >foreign countries because they are too distracted with their own > Actually that led to a big surprise in some firms when Asian firms was > able to manufacture higher quality computer parts at a lower price... Non-US citizens tend to think we don't know enough about other countries. We ask "WTF are you spending so much time worrying about and studying us for?" ;-) But seriously, we know lots about our own country. It just so happens that the size of your entire country is the size of a few of our states, so it's like a mini-grouping of countries. > >Heh. Well, the weirdo Bavarians do. ;-) We have our share of leather > >wearing freaks here in the states. Just look at San Fransisco! > Yeah, but don't think we run around that way here ;-) I don't think anyone does. Germans are made fun of a lot for some of the more eccentric things (like sex fetish videos - why do they all seem to be German?), but no one takes them seriously. > >A sign for every skirmish? You mean like the Vietnam Memorial and shit > >like that? Yeah, we've got a bunch of those. That's because the > >want to be remembered and recognized. Most people don't give a flying > >about it. > No, I mean the skirmishes from the Independence War and the war between > North and South - how do you call it? You mean the revolutionary war? I didn't even know we had signs for THOSE skirmishes. I'm not sure what you mean by "signs", either. Do you mean like the confederate flag? > If we'd do that in Europe, or the rest of the world you couldn't build > a single house because everything would be crowded with sings... We stopped fighting in our country over a hundred years ago, so there's no call for new ones. ;-) > >> - Their history starts in 1776, in some rare cases even 1492. If you > >> show them a house that was built before these dates they think it > >> to be a fake. > >???? > Believe me it really was that way! I think the worst thing was when > some Americans where invited to the 1000 year celebration of a city. > They just couldn't believe it. And this only was the first mentioning > of that city, only god knows when that city was founded! I admit that a 1000 year old city is novel to any country that's only a couple of hundred years old. But to *DISBELIEVE* it is entirely another thing! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 19:29:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA10118 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 19:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E6BD82.C97F539E@zaz.com.br> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 00:24:50 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Greetings :), Neil Bradley wrote: > > What shall the topic be this week? We already covered graphics, > controllers, and dynarec, Star Wars, how much we all hate the French ( ;-) > ) and something about shagging sheep. > > How about this as a question: How are US citizens viewed by the countries > you're all from? Let me try... Willian, from Brazil, here. 1) Visions about the US are always distorted by it being the mightiest country, bad points are overemphasized, good points not considered... distortions extrapolate. Any silly isolate example is generalized to the whole nation by a detractor. We probably have all kinds of people around here, so anything from hate to love to uh? happens. Absolute minorities apart: 2) There are masses who simply live their lives and don't care about faraway matters. Unless during soccer competitions. Actually the american team is just beginning to be respected here, If we loose, it's still considered our fault. Good discipline and defense, though -- but soccer is an art, it has to be beautiful, fluid, like you play basketball. 3) The so-called new rich ones ( in case this is local, new rich are those who became rich or almost, but have no "proper" education and tradition, blah blah ). The ones who buy in New York and Miami, go to Disneyland, buy import cars, etc. They love this US they see as THE US. Ah, traditional ones prefer Europe, of course. 4) Just like many other places, we are bombarded with american culture, specially commercial one. Some consider this a form of domination. And that it takes space from our own -- better -- culture. Also, because what comes to big tv stations is mostly commercial, for the masses, many ( probably not just in Brazil ) take that as an example of how ALL americans are: dumb, ignorant and arrogant. Of course this is naive thinking to say the least. Our own culture has a lot of space, easily much more than foreign ones. This was not the case for some years in the 80's ( our creative fault ), but more and more it is happening. Just don't think it is for our GOOD culture ( the one that is better than american -- than any -- COMMERCIAL STUFF, of course ). It is space for our own trash. That's why I said it was naive thinking. 5) I've already said we are a mix from many places, massively Portugal, Italy, Africans, Germany and even Japan, markedly Spain, Middle East countries, etc. Although the US is the foreign nation with most exposure on tv, etc., others are close to that. So, in some sense, the US is "just another country, that happens to be the #1 economy, military force, science, technology, etc. ". In essence, americans -- or any other people -- are not hated at all in here. Brazilians are in general warm, nice people. No holy wars or major prejudices. Willian, wgermano@zaz.com.br --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 1 21:50:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA10354 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:50:05 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... In-Reply-To: <38E6BD82.C97F539E@zaz.com.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > How about this as a question: How are US citizens viewed by the countries > > you're all from? > Let me try... Willian, from Brazil, here. > 1) Visions about the US are always distorted by it being the mightiest > country, bad points are overemphasized, good points not considered... Yeah, that's probably true. My guess is that what most people know of the US is limited to television that gets exported, which most people here don't think is worth a damn. Well, most *DECENT* people don't think much of it. > 2) There are masses who simply live their lives and don't care about > faraway matters. Unless during soccer competitions. Actually the Yeah. I find that rather offenseive myself. I've often said that the more of a sports fan someone is the less of an IQ they have. > 3) The so-called new rich ones ( in case this is local, new rich are > those who became rich or almost, but have no "proper" education and > tradition, blah blah ). The ones who buy in New York and Miami, go to > Disneyland, buy import cars, etc. They love this US they see as THE US. > Ah, traditional ones prefer Europe, of course. You lost me here - something in the translation, I guess. In my case I can remember when $50 meant whether or not I ate during that week. I'm nowhere near that now, but I do have quite a bit of respect for $$! > 4) Just like many other places, we are bombarded with american culture, > specially commercial one. Some consider this a form of domination. And > that it takes space from our own -- better -- culture. Also, because > what comes to big tv stations is mostly commercial, for the masses, many > ( probably not just in Brazil ) take that as an example of how ALL > americans are: dumb, ignorant and arrogant. Of course this is naive > thinking to say the least. Funny, we think that the ads are aimed at dumb, ignorant, etc... We're honestly so numb to advertising now that companies *REALLY* have to go over the top to sell us on a product. Some ads are absolutely brilliant - most are just lame. Like is my life so fucking important that I need a calling plan, or that I should dail 10-10-220-800-collect so I can save a dollar or two? Bleugh. > but more and more it is happening. Just don't think it is for our GOOD > culture ( the one that is better than american -- than any -- COMMERCIAL > STUFF, of course ). It is space for our own trash. That's why I said it > was naive thinking. The reason it becomes popular is most often because the natives are sick of what they've got and want a change. If it wasn't the US, it would be something else. But advancement comes at a price of ditching old traditional ways. Honestly, being traditional about anything for the sake of tradition is just stupid. As transporation barriers break down, everyone will eventually wind up polluting everyone else and we'll run into a situation where the world is a hybrid of everything. *THAT* Is when the world society will begin to advance in leaps and bounds. > In essence, americans -- or any other people -- are not hated at all in > here. Brazilians are in general warm, nice people. No holy wars or major > prejudices. I think that's typical here as well. Well, except for the racist southeastern United States. ;-) The reason I asked the original question is to perhaps explain what's really going on so it can be understood. I find Europeans always bitch that US citizens don't care about foreign countries. To a large extent, that's true. We generally don't hold a lot of value in knowing anything about non-US countries, and it all boils down to time. In fact, we often question why Europeans are so obsessed with thinking they know everything about US, too! I don't know what the work pace is like in a lot of countries, but I know I'm personally so busy with just getting things I *HAVE* to do done that I don't have time to devote to studying foreign cultures. This is actually one way I do it - by polling. ;-) I'd absolutely love to visit Germany, Australia, the UK, Japan, and Egypt. They are, what I consider to be, the richest countries of culture and style in the world. Seeing the castles of Germany would be euphoria. We don't have castles in the US. We've got boring, bland buildings mostly. Have I bored you enough? Any other questions from the inside of the US? Have a US stereotype you'd like explained? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 06:07:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA11041 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 06:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004201bf9ca4$3ef24e60$0a909090@okay> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:04:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > How about this as a question: How are US citizens viewed by the countries > you're all from? That's a good question. Hmm... :) Well, I'm afraid that Britain is 50/50 with America. In some respects we dislike the country, in other ways we aspire to be like it. I'm not a normal British person anymore. A true Britan would keep himself to himself in regards to other countries - an English person especially dislikes people from other countries. As for me, I think that's stupid - so I try to learn all I can about the various countries so I can make up my own opinion. Britain sees America as having a very poor education system. Because of this, most Americans are seen as being quite stupid. It doesn't help the American cause when you have American tourists walking around in utter disbelief that any country has been around for more than 500 years and saying that everything is "quaint". America is respected as a political power - but the actual political system seems to be quite poor. You can elect lots of people to look after each state - but you have one senator who can be from another party who has enough power to overrule anything they want to do. Because of this it is seen that your political system just doesn't work very well. We also see America as being a very violent place. Everyone carries a gun with them and there are regular shootings. I don't agree with this stereotype - though I do think that there are more shootings and killings (or the ratio is higher) than in Britain or any other country I know about. Whatever, the American film industry definitely doesn't do you any favours here. Americans also have quite a high opinion of themselves and think that every country that isn't America is nowhere near as good. You're like the French in that regard. ;) I know a lot of people think that Americans are terrible for knowing very little about history outside of America. While I know that America is big (indeed, anyone of the great lakes could quite easily fit Britain inside!) it doesn't really have a huge history. In our history lessons, not only do we learn about our own history - we learn about other peoples too. I think the only other thing I can think of that people think about is that Americans don't generally know what is going on around the world. They know what is happening in their village, city and state - but not too much about anywhere else. This doesn't help them when they are seen as being not so bright. Now I'm not saying that I agree with these stereotypes. Indeed, I've spoke with a fair few Americans, like yourself, who I wouldn't say would fit into these categories. However, I have met quite a few Americans who do fit quite easily into some of them. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 12:03:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11861 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:03:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:03:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... In-Reply-To: <004201bf9ca4$3ef24e60$0a909090@okay> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I'm not a normal British person anymore. A true Britan would keep himself to > himself in regards to other countries - an English person especially > dislikes people from other countries. As for me, I think that's stupid - so > I try to learn all I can about the various countries so I can make up my own > opinion. Yeah, that is stupid. It's almost racist (disliking everyone from another country). Except for the French, of course. ;-) > Britain sees America as having a very poor education system. Because of > this, most Americans are seen as being quite stupid. It doesn't help the That's certainly not true, but I think you know it. I can say, having been through the US's public education system, that the grades K-12 aren't worth a damn. The only time you really learn in school is when you go on to college, whether it be a state university or a community college. My math education is so screwed up because they put me in too high of a math class to start with, realized their mistake, put me in too low of a math class, and by the time I was a senior in high school, they had me at sophomore level math. I graduated high school in the first 3 months of me being a senior, and went directly to community college. > American cause when you have American tourists walking around in utter > disbelief that any country has been around for more than 500 years and > saying that everything is "quaint". As I said in my other email, having buildings that are 200 years old or older is a novelty to us. To you it's just standard issue, but for US citizens, we just don't have anything like that in the states! > seems to be quite poor. You can elect lots of people to look after each > state - but you have one senator who can be from another party who has > enough power to overrule anything they want to do. Because of this it is > seen that your political system just doesn't work very well. It works well enough to be the #1 military, economic, and cultural center of the world. ;-) But what you're not seeing is that our senators are elected in each state because of their mindset, and we're not often disappointed. It actually does work quite well. > We also see America as being a very violent place. Everyone carries a gun > with them and there are regular shootings. I don't agree with this That's total bullshit, and is further fueled by my major enemy - the media. Since guns in schools are a hot topic, any time they have a shooting, the media goes hog wild talking about "Violence in our schools" and making a huge fucking deal about it. If anything, it just fuels more copycats. I really, really hate the media. I write nastygrams to them on a consistent basis. > stereotype - though I do think that there are more shootings and killings > (or the ratio is higher) than in Britain or any other country I know about. Either that or we just glorify it more often when it happens. > Whatever, the American film industry definitely doesn't do you any favours > here. And of course, the film industry is most often a joke, and doesn't reflect real life. I've met a handful of Germans who think that everyone has swimming pools in their mansions in the US because of reruns of crappy soap operas like Knott's Landing. ;-) But then again, I don't think you'd like Americans to view the English as a bunch of herion junkies (I.E. Trainspotting - horrible fucking movie). ;-) > Americans also have quite a high opinion of themselves and think that every > country that isn't America is nowhere near as good. You're like the French > in that regard. ;) We do? It depends upon what you mean by "nowhere near as good". Good in what way? If you mean economically, well, that can't be argued with successfully. ;-) Our minimum standards for health are quite a bit higher than other countries. One thing I don't understand about a lot of foreign countries is why everybody seems to smoke. Can't a country that has been around for thousands of years, especially ones that know damn well what the consequences of doing so are, change their culture to ban it in public places? In this part of the US, you'll get ostracized if you light up a cigarette. It's a filthy, smelly, stinky, unhealthy habit that should not be allowed in public (in private it's OK), and should be treated as a drug addiction. > I know a lot of people think that Americans are terrible for knowing very > little about history outside of America. While I know that America is big > (indeed, anyone of the great lakes could quite easily fit Britain inside!) > it doesn't really have a huge history. In our history lessons, not only do > we learn about our own history - we learn about other peoples too. We do as well. We just don't remember it after we leave school unless we're going into a field that requires it. ;-) > I think the only other thing I can think of that people think about is that > Americans don't generally know what is going on around the world. They know > what is happening in their village, city and state - but not too much about > anywhere else. This doesn't help them when they are seen as being not so > bright. And as I mentioned in my prior emails, why exactly is this so important, and why does that make US citizens look stupid? The reverse could be said: Why are you so interested in everyone else's affairs? ;-) > Now I'm not saying that I agree with these stereotypes. Indeed, I've spoke > with a fair few Americans, like yourself, who I wouldn't say would fit into > these categories. However, I have met quite a few Americans who do fit quite > easily into some of them. :) I have met very few that fit in the stereotypical view, actually. Then again, I tend to hang around highly educated people. But I'd also say that England isn't free of dipshits, either. You just value knowing the history of your surrounding neighbors. It just so happens that our "surrounding neighbors" span several thousand miles that we call "states". ;-) It has a common history/ancestry. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 12:45:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11952 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E7A22F.1F9CD6F3@zaz.com.br> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:40:31 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi :), Neil Bradley wrote: > > > > How about this as a question: How are US citizens viewed by the countries > > > you're all from? > > Let me try... Willian, from Brazil, here. > Yeah, that's probably true. My guess is that what most people know of the > US is limited to television that gets exported, which most people here > don't think is worth a damn. Well, most *DECENT* people don't think much > of it. You know, TV is like Pandora's box, you don't have much control over what they put there. Open at your own risk. But most people seem to rely too much on it. We can say one can always turn it off if nothing good is on, there are worlds of other possibilities around. But many people seem to be too depending on tv, they simply didn't develop taste for much else. They are doomed with a very time demanding hobby that never evolves. Maybe those people saying TV is a devil's thing are right :). Now God sent the Internet ;). > You lost me here - something in the translation, I guess. In my case I can > remember when $50 meant whether or not I ate during that week. I'm nowhere > near that now, but I do have quite a bit of respect for $$! Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. New rich is not a term for anyone who got money, but for people who think money is everything and whose sport is spending money on expensive, shiny things. Basically just concerned with their position in their social group. They judge others based on their house, electronic gadgets, the brand of the cars, clothes, parties you go to, who you know, social columns on newspapers and tv, etc. Got the picture ? The sad thing is that they are arrogant, a quality that comes with ignorance, surely. If something is not cool in their group, then it's worth nothing. It's just another sad/funny tribe in our "jungle". What I said about traditional rich people not liking them is not a praise for tradition. It's just how these two groups relate: the new rich ones want to be accepted among the later, who think they are disgusting, because they have no taste or "advanced" culture. But they usually have to welcome them, specially when their bank accounts start not doing justice to their "status/tradition" anymore. Comedians love to mock on these stereotypes. Clear now ? So, these new rich love the US as they see it: home of Miami, limousines, stores in NY, Las Vegas, Disneyland, etc. > Funny, we think that the ads are aimed at dumb, ignorant, etc... We're yes, ours too. Though now and then some pretty funny/smart ad comes out. But I guess I made another confusion here: when I said commercial stuff, I meant movies, series, cartoons, etc. with no quality, done with no other intent but getting money from it. The industry of the million clones... > Some ads are absolutely brilliant - > most are just lame. Like is my life so fucking important that I need a > calling plan, or that I should dail 10-10-220-800-collect so I can save a > dollar or two? Bleugh. :) Smaller tv stations here sometimes accept those old pseudo shows where they try to prove some product will change your life... Once I saw one, of a face cleaner cream or something (my english surely doesn't help here), where a young adult guy was saying: "Now I have a future!", just because he claimed the product got his face rid of a bunch of skin eruptions. Willian --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 12:46:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11961 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E7A26D.B6BEA35E@zaz.com.br> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:41:33 -0300 From: Willian Padovani Germano X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi again, Neil Bradley wrote: > I find Europeans always bitch that US citizens don't care about foreign > countries. To a large extent, that's true. We generally don't hold a lot > of value in knowing anything about non-US countries, and it all boils down > to time. In fact, we often question why Europeans are so obsessed with > thinking they know everything about US, too! > I don't know what the work pace is like in a lot of countries, but I know > I'm personally so busy with just getting things I *HAVE* to do done that I > don't have time to devote to studying foreign cultures. This is actually > one way I do it - by polling. ;-) Great. We're all busy ;), though we can try to minimize that. I'm not European, but I guess I can help a little. Maybe it's not that they want you to *study* their culture. Just respect them, intellectually (not saying that you don't, read the alert at the end). 1) There's the emotional part, too. Watching american movies, cartoons, tv series, shows, music star, etc. on a daily basis makes that part of our societies and cultures, too, of course. We get 'to know how you are', see that we have many things in common: we all believe in love and in good against evil, etc. It gets to the point where they don't even seem foreign anymore ( global communications, translations adapted to our tastes and common roots help that ). Brazilians don't care, we expect that others may not know anything true about us, but Europeans probably expect a two-way road, like friendship, which implies sharing. Or at least expect an open spirit. But while they know so much about american culture (?), the average american ( averages always get their voice spread worldwide! ) knows nothing and even mocks on things he has no clue about. The average man we talk about is stupid everywhere probably. He thinks he is the best, makes fun of things he doesn't understand ( at least that's better than a dog, who pisses on new things :) )-- and worst, proudly spreads his ignorance in loud words. So let's not take these things seriously. On the other side, I understand that americans may be bothered about this pseudo knowledge others claim to have about them. Surely what gets exported from their culture is not enough to give us a decent view about them, but some people don't realize this ( global communications, translations adapted to our tastes and common roots help that ). And then foreigners may end thinking they have twice as much culture as someone in the US: the american one and their own, simply from watching TV :). Besides that, you didn't come to my door and said "I'm Neil Bradley, take these tapes and learn about the americans". Business did it, you might not even know we watch the same programs, which were made for americans. Not your problem if they were sold worldwide and exhibited here, this doesn't mean you have to learn about us all in exchange. Apparently this is not the reasoning some adopt... We shouldn't care about mindless complaints, generalizations, etc. I'm just writing this all for the slight chance that it helps answering your questions. 2) We all know how knowledge and comprehension broadens our views. If some people have their attention limited to a country, they are restricting their own development. They fall into ignorance. If they think other countries can't be relevant ( they are arrogant ) and do that intentionally, they are dumb. So others with a broader view and maybe some hurt feelings will have a terrible opinion about them and no respect for their minds. This whole matter is illusory in all sides. First, nations can't isolate themselves. Some citizens can, but others will have an open mind and bring innovation and experience from wherever it lies. Second, we're both in the new world, our culture evolved from a recent mix of other ones, with a never-ending feedback system linking everything. This is obvious, there's no such thing as "the exclusive, original, better way" in general. The whole of humanity built the knowledge we have today. Probably everything one may claim as his achievement developed upon contributions from many civilizations through time. Besides that, many foreigners working in the US are directly responsible for key developments in science, technology, etc. So it's at least not very practical to suddenly close your eyes to what is done elsewhere. One more illusion: who said americans don't know that ? There may be some who don't but... you know, there are all kinds... so is the world. Personally I try to stay away from these matters. These generalizations, complaints, prejudices, etc. are not part of how I think, it's hard to talk about what you don't believe. I like to talk, like to get in touch with other cultures, but being the voice of the masses, ugh . Well, hope it helps. [ALERT: this post talked roughly about an abstract entity called the average man, who some suppose is an acceptable model for the crowds that populate modern societies. Nothing here is aimed at my fellow Dynareckers ( hope this is not an offensive word... )] Willian, from Brazil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 13:04:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12014 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:04:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... In-Reply-To: <38E7A22F.1F9CD6F3@zaz.com.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > You know, TV is like Pandora's box, you don't have much control over > what they put there. Open at your own risk. But most people seem to rely > too much on it. Right. I've had quite a few foreigners (for lack of a better term) razz me for shit they see in ads and on TV. The average US citizen doesn't like 90% of the shows on TV anyway. > evolves. Maybe those people saying TV is a devil's thing are right :). > Now God sent the Internet ;). It has been said that a million monkeys pounding on typewriters will eventually write every literary work written. Now with the internet, we've proven that that's not the case. ;-) > > You lost me here - something in the translation, I guess. In my case I can > > remember when $50 meant whether or not I ate during that week. I'm nowhere > > near that now, but I do have quite a bit of respect for $$! > Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. New rich is not a term for anyone who > got money, but for people who think money is everything and whose sport > is spending money on expensive, shiny things. "In it for the money" - gotcha. I butt heads with people at work who just want to get their job done and the only reason they're doing programming at all is because it's a well paying job. These people do what little they have to. As I told my boss, I find them to be the most offensive people on the planet and are single-handedly screwing the industry. > Basically just concerned > with their position in their social group. They judge others based on > their house, electronic gadgets, the brand of the cars, clothes, parties > you go to, who you know, social columns on newspapers and tv, etc. Got Hey, I like toys, but I like toys because I like the toys - not because I want to impress someone. I want to impress *ME*! ;-) I can understand liking to have nice things, but just buying things for the sake of impressing others (I.E. people who own BMWs, which are nice cars, but aren't even close to worth it) are just lame. > the picture ? The sad thing is that they are arrogant, a quality that > comes with ignorance, surely. If something is not cool in their group, > then it's worth nothing. Aggressively incompetent is what I call them. > have no taste or "advanced" culture. But they usually have to welcome > them, specially when their bank accounts start not doing justice to > their "status/tradition" anymore. Comedians love to mock on these > stereotypes. Fortunately, though, the new rich are the first to get tanked if the economy goes sour. > > Funny, we think that the ads are aimed at dumb, ignorant, etc... We're > yes, ours too. Though now and then some pretty funny/smart ad comes out. Yep. And some that are riotous. > But I guess I made another confusion here: when I said commercial stuff, > I meant movies, series, cartoons, etc. with no quality, done with no > other intent but getting money from it. The industry of the million > clones... Oh, you mean like the US music industry? I also happen to be a musician and I find everything "popular" to be offensive. Britney Spears wouldn't have a record contract if she weighed 300 pounds. It's assembly line *CRAP* music. And funnily enough, it doesn't seem to permeate outside the US. I happen to love European music much much more than US music (which I absolutely abhor). > > most are just lame. Like is my life so fucking important that I need a > > calling plan, or that I should dail 10-10-220-800-collect so I can save a > > dollar or two? Bleugh. > :) Smaller tv stations here sometimes accept those old pseudo shows > where they try to prove some product will change your life... Once I saw > one, of a face cleaner cream or something (my english surely doesn't > help here), where a young adult guy was saying: "Now I have a future!", > just because he claimed the product got his face rid of a bunch of skin > eruptions. Sadly, though, people in every culture around the world tend to treat better looking people better. But I've known many a zit face who have gotten master's degrees and became wonderful contributors to society, so it's certainly not a disability! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 14:11:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12268 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Delays... Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:19:33 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Sorry for the delayed replies but my SMTP host wasn't working again :-( I will have to look for a different provider since this really gets onto my nerves! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 14:11:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12270 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 00:01:58 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Have you seen this one? ;-) http://www.avault.com/hardware/buttonless.asp Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 14:11:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12280 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:11:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:28:23 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> That book was way too long, 500 pages for a story that could be told in >> 300 pages! It was also the reason why I didn't read Planet of Twilight >> be the same author yet. >Ahh, I forgot about that one, it was more of the same. Good that you told me then I don't have to read it myself... >The Wraith Squadron ones are pretty good, Booster Terrik has fun with a >star destroyer... Hehe, Booster is always fun, but how can he have fun with the Errant Venture with only 10 turbolaser batteries? >Hmm, I've seen this one around, guess it's time to pick it up =P Be warned that "I, Jedi" is in first person and everything is narrated from the view of Corran, but this book really has character development. >There are times when having the jedi kids outdoing everyone else at >everything gets excessive =P Yeah, tell me about it! >Amazingly enough I think Anderson was the editor for these =) Yes, but the good news is that he only wrote one tale per book! >I would definitely agree with you there. I'm betting that Lucas will >de-canonize this one =P I'm not sure. I think all stories are reviewed first, and Vector Prime is the start of a whole series. >> The New Rebellion: >Did not read this one. It isn't that bad but it isn't one of the better ones as well. I guess you won't miss much when you don't read it. >Hmm, Brooks did a fine job with those Elfstone books, looks like another >one to check out... You learn more about the Sith and why there are only two, which was the most interesting part, forgot to mark that page though... >Heh, the Marvel comics? The ones where Luke invariably scored a half dozen >chicks that all died horribly before the end? The ones that got >de-canonized? =) I mean those Sith comics set about 5000 to 4000 years before ANH. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 14:11:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12287 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:51:53 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Those stoves haven't been made in at least 20 years. Controls are on the >front these days. The new one my sister has is much better I heard. >That's there to deter getting the crazies into the country. I surely don't >want any more wackos than we've already got. I asked my mother and she told me that she has to fill out such a form (mental diseases, ever kidnapped an American, etc) every time she visits(!) the US! When she once said that this procedure isn't too different from what you have to do to visit the GDR (German Democratic Republic) the guys at the customs almost got upset. But she knows both procedures well enough to notice such similarities. >Sure, but driving laws here are different than they are in Germany, and >that's all the driver's license/tests are really for - so you know them. >They do NOT teach you how to drive. In Germany you have two tests: theory and driving. >Automatics? Nah - they're about 50/50. I don't think the driving tests are >stringent enough. They ought to have emergency situations accounted for >(meaning actual testing of reaction of emergency situations) and spend a 6 >week course on how to handle your fucking vehicle. I guess what you mean is a special course in Germany, but I didn't do that one. I was in a special driving school where I had a few hours of driving practice every day and it still lasted for three weeks. The bad thing was that the postal service needed a whole week to deliver the official papers in my home town and therefore I had to do both tests on the same day, which certainly isn't normal. But I had zero errors in each one anyway ;-) >They'll give any moron >a driver's license around here. I much prefer Germany's approach. We still have enough morons on the streets, especially those in BMW and Mercedes who think they're the kings of the road. And a really like to see a speed limit for our highways. If it goes on the way it is now than our highways are just suicide. Most have only two tracks, the left one is crowded with trucks, mainly from Eastern Europe and most shouldn't be driving due to our technical standards, and on the left track you have to watch out for the crazy guys who drive full throttle and shoot ahead with 200kph! >Non-US citizens tend to think we don't know enough about other countries. >We ask "WTF are you spending so much time worrying about and studying us >for?" ;-) But seriously, we know lots about our own country. It just so >happens that the size of your entire country is the size of a few of our >states, so it's like a mini-grouping of countries. That's true, but we also have a larger population density. It was also a bit weird why the US Air Force had to practice their low flights over all our populated regions (they did - this isn't hear-say, I experienced that on my own!) when they have enough open spaces in America. >I don't think anyone does. Germans are made fun of a lot for some of the >more eccentric things (like sex fetish videos - why do they all seem to be >German?), but no one takes them seriously. Don't ask me! >You mean the revolutionary war? I didn't even know we had signs for >THOSE skirmishes. I'm not sure what you mean by "signs", either. Do you >mean like the confederate flag? Probably "sign" is the wrong word. I'm talkong about "signs" saying: on there was a skirmish here. That might be typical for the Eastern part of the US though. >We stopped fighting in our country over a hundred years ago, so there's no >call for new ones. ;-) Yeah, then the army started playing in other countries... I think the country which didn't have war for the longest period is Switzerland, and they even have the largest army of the world because everyone who has ever been in the army, that is every man at a certain age, is still part of the army. >I admit that a 1000 year old city is novel to any country that's only a >couple of hundred years old. But to *DISBELIEVE* it is entirely another >thing! Ok, then tell them that a wall was running through Berlin (Ok, they might know that), and that a large fence ran right through Germany and people were shot while trying to cross it. Most Americans will think you're just joking! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 14:51:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12417 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:51:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:51:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > http://www.avault.com/hardware/buttonless.asp Looks like April fools to me. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 2 23:27:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13451 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004030630.IAA17550@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars In-Reply-To: from Michael Koenig at "Mar 31, 2000 02:48:28 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:30:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pons.ac.upc.es id IAA17550 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id XAA13447 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Much better than my Spanish! And compared to Pedro Almodovar your > English is perfect! ;-) > Hehehe, I think you are wrong, my spoken english is really worst :) If you heared Almodovar speaking then you know the tipical spanish english. > >> Daala helps Luke? Have I missed something?? > >Yes. I don´t remember in what book. I will search. What I remember > is that > >happens more than ten years later, Anakin > >(the son of Leia and Solo) is 6 or so years old. > > Either I forgot about that book or it's in one of those I haven't read > yet. In that time period (after the first appearance of Admiral Daala > in the Jedi Academy Trilogy) these are only "Planet of Twilight", "X- > Wing: Starfighters of Adumar", and the Junior and Young Jedi Knigth > books. > It's "Planet of Twilight" and Daala helps Han Solo to deal with some kind of enemy float. Books I surely I have readed: "The Truce of Bakura", Kathy Tyers "New Republic Trilogy", Timothy Zahn "Jedi Academy Trilogy", Kevin J. Anderson "The Crystal Star", Vonda McIntyre "The New Rebellion", Kristine Kathryn Rush Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 01:07:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13668 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 01:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004030810.KAA27760@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Apr 2, 2000 01:04:17 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:10:33 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I think today I'm too sleeped to talk seriously ... I only know US by movies and TV so I really don't know nothing only the crap they send to us, so you can see what Spanish people think about US ... I agree with all has been saied this weekend, but I only have done a fast reading. I suppose in US there are all kind of people like here in Spain and all over the world. The only I can really disagree with US is its international policy but this is related mainly to politics and so and not to all the people living there. And in Spain I think people are a bit historical angry with the country who 'stole' our last outsea colonies :). The new empire crushing the old one. hehehe. It doesn't matter really, Spain empire was already dead at this time and I don't like imperialism. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 01:30:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13749 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 01:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E855EE.9A1A4716@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:27:26 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Yeah, that is stupid. It's almost racist (disliking everyone from another > country). Except for the French, of course. ;-) Oh, there's no doubt about it. It's quite a racist country in that regard. All I can say is that I don't suffer from it. I detest racism in all its forms. Except when it's about the French. ;) > > Britain sees America as having a very poor education system. Because of > > this, most Americans are seen as being quite stupid. It doesn't help the > > That's certainly not true, but I think you know it. I can say, having been > through the US's public education system, that the grades K-12 aren't > worth a damn. The only time you really learn in school is when you go on > to college, whether it be a state university or a community college. My > math education is so screwed up because they put me in too high of a math > class to start with, realized their mistake, put me in too low of a math > class, and by the time I was a senior in high school, they had me at > sophomore level math. I graduated high school in the first 3 months of me > being a senior, and went directly to community college. I've heard that the state education in America is among the worst in the developed countries. There was apparently research done and a table drawn up of how all the countries performed. America was down at the bottom, though I don't think it was last. I'm not sure where Britain stood, but by the fact that fun is still made of America I assume it was higher. I believe it was either France or Germany that performed the best. Damn. :) I don't actually know the different levels of schooling in America. While I understand that Junior, Sophomore, Senior etc are different years, I don't know which is the first or which is the last. In Britain we just give a number for each year. Education starts at age 5 - in an Infant school - but this year is really for integration and isn't counted. We start counting at the age of six (called "Year 1") which goes on to "Year 2". You then leave Infant school and join the Junior school for 4 years - up to "Year 6". Secondary school finishes in "Year 11" and you are 16. You take your GCSEs at the end of this year and get your results in August. That's the end of compulsory education. After that you can either stay in High School (Secondary School) and do your "A" Levels - or go to College and do either "A" Levels or an equivalent - or (try and) get a job. That generally lasts for 2 years. You can then either try and get a job or go to University. The two main types of course are HND (a Diploma - lasts for 2 years), Degree (lasts for 2 years) or a degree with honours (three years). > > American cause when you have American tourists walking around in utter > > disbelief that any country has been around for more than 500 years and > > saying that everything is "quaint". > > As I said in my other email, having buildings that are 200 years old or > older is a novelty to us. To you it's just standard issue, but for US > citizens, we just don't have anything like that in the states! For me in particular, I live right by Chester which used to be an ancient Roman fortress - and the walls they built still exist. There's a wall that goes all the way around the city. In fact, Chester used to be the Roman capital of England. And we still have laws that date back hundreds of years. For instance, it is still legal to kill a Welshman in Chester with a longbow if you see him inside the city walls after midnight! And anyway, the word "quaint" is quite offensive to a lot of people. :) > > seems to be quite poor. You can elect lots of people to look after each > > state - but you have one senator who can be from another party who has > > enough power to overrule anything they want to do. Because of this it is > > seen that your political system just doesn't work very well. > > It works well enough to be the #1 military, economic, and cultural center > of the world. ;-) But what you're not seeing is that our senators are > elected in each state because of their mindset, and we're not often > disappointed. It actually does work quite well. You're the #1 economic center of the world. I don't know about cultural center or military - especially not military as your country has bombed it's own side in every war since WW2! ;) I also think I used the wrong word. I didn't mean "Senator" but Governor. I don't know the difference, but I think the Governor has less power. > > We also see America as being a very violent place. Everyone carries a gun > > with them and there are regular shootings. I don't agree with this > > That's total bullshit, and is further fueled by my major enemy - the > media. Since guns in schools are a hot topic, any time they have a > shooting, the media goes hog wild talking about "Violence in our schools" > and making a huge fucking deal about it. If anything, it just fuels more > copycats. I really, really hate the media. I write nastygrams to them on a > consistent basis. Yes, I hate the media too. Of course it's fueled by them. It's disgusting the way they act. I don't write to them - I just don't buy any newspapers because I don't want them to have any of my money. > > stereotype - though I do think that there are more shootings and killings > > (or the ratio is higher) than in Britain or any other country I know about. > > Either that or we just glorify it more often when it happens. I don't think so. There have been a couple of shootings in Britain - but these weren't by school children but by members of the public who had managed to get into the school. I don't know how easy it is to get a gun in the US but I know that it is really difficult in this country. You need to have a psycho-analysis, have talks with policemen and other tests and if you fail any, you won't get a licence to have a gun. And if you don't have a licence, you can't buy one. Well, at least you can't legally. > > Whatever, the American film industry definitely doesn't do you any favours > > here. > > And of course, the film industry is most often a joke, and doesn't reflect > real life. I've met a handful of Germans who think that everyone has > swimming pools in their mansions in the US because of reruns of crappy > soap operas like Knott's Landing. ;-) But then again, I don't think you'd > like Americans to view the English as a bunch of herion junkies (I.E. > Trainspotting - horrible fucking movie). ;-) Of course the film industry is a joke. I can watch it and know that everything is exaggerated, over-hyped and I don't get drawn in. I don't believe what I see. However, I can't say the same for everybody because I know it's not true. To a lot of people, what they see on TV is what they believe! Anyway, Trainspotting wasn't about the English - it was about the Scottish! ;) And if you believe the movies, there are no coloured people in Notting Hill and everyone speaks like Hugh Grant over here - like a big puff. :)) > > Americans also have quite a high opinion of themselves and think that every > > country that isn't America is nowhere near as good. You're like the French > > in that regard. ;) > > We do? It depends upon what you mean by "nowhere near as good". Good in > what way? If you mean economically, well, that can't be argued with > successfully. ;-) Our minimum standards for health are quite a bit higher > than other countries. I don't know in what way, I haven't heard of a single thing that Americans think is better! I agree that you have a good health system. However, it's also very expensive. Ours is still very good, but free. Well, sort of. Money gets taken out of your wages to pay for it, but it is also Government subsidised. >From what I've heard about food in America (first hand reports), it appears that there's no imagination. It appears that a lot of the food involves steak. And foreign food (such as Italian) isn't so great. However, I've also heard that the Pizzas you make in America are the nicest in the world. And food is cheap. :) > One thing I don't understand about a lot of foreign countries is why > everybody seems to smoke. Can't a country that has been around for > thousands of years, especially ones that know damn well what the > consequences of doing so are, change their culture to ban it in public > places? In this part of the US, you'll get ostracized if you light up a > cigarette. It's a filthy, smelly, stinky, unhealthy habit that should not > be allowed in public (in private it's OK), and should be treated as a > drug addiction. Yes, I agree here. Britain is at least getting better in that it's banning advertising of cigarette adverts and making sure that certain places are no smoking zones. Germany is definitely the worst place for this that I've seen so far. Lots of people smoke around here! > > I think the only other thing I can think of that people think about is that > > Americans don't generally know what is going on around the world. They know > > what is happening in their village, city and state - but not too much about > > anywhere else. This doesn't help them when they are seen as being not so > > bright. > > And as I mentioned in my prior emails, why exactly is this so important, > and why does that make US citizens look stupid? The reverse could be said: > Why are you so interested in everyone else's affairs? ;-) You seem like an intelligent person. Do you really think that what happens in another state or another country doesn't affect you at all? It obviously depends on what it is, but lots of important things affect other countries. > I have met very few that fit in the stereotypical view, actually. Then > again, I tend to hang around highly educated people. But I'd also say that > England isn't free of dipshits, either. You just value knowing the history > of your surrounding neighbors. It just so happens that our "surrounding > neighbors" span several thousand miles that we call "states". ;-) It has a > common history/ancestry. Certainly, Britain isn't free of dipshits and I wouldn't say that it is. In terms of trouble-makers, England and Germany are the worst in Europe (look at football games). It's just that while I'd say there are quite a lot of intelligent people in America, you certainly have a really unfair share of unintelligent. ;) Okay, you can blame that on South America if you want. :) Anyway, I wasn't saying that I agree with these views, I was just letting you know what they were. I've spoken to enough stupid Americans who knew nothing about anything but spoke as if they did (I'll give you that, Americans are not afraid to speak in public) which gives me a rather bad impression. But I still know some people, like yourself, who I'd certainly class as intelligent. It's a much lower ratio, though. And yes, there are thick people in Britain. I just stay away from them. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 02:01:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA13943 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 02:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 02:01:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... In-Reply-To: <38E855EE.9A1A4716@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Oh, there's no doubt about it. It's quite a racist country in that regard. > All I can say is that I don't suffer from it. I detest racism in all its > forms. Except when it's about the French. ;) Yeah, except it's not full blown racism. It's just merciless teasing! > > That's certainly not true, but I think you know it. I can say, having been > > through the US's public education system, that the grades K-12 aren't > > worth a damn. The only time you really learn in school is when you go on > I've heard that the state education in America is among the worst in the > developed countries. There was apparently research done and a table drawn > up of how all the countries performed. America was down at the bottom, > though I don't think it was last. I'm not sure where Britain stood, but by > the fact that fun is still made of America I assume it was higher. Since schools are state run (not federally run), the quality, depending upon where the school is located, can vary *WIDELY*. Growing up, they canned computer class so we could have a fucking football league. What a joke! But at the same time, there's a K-6 school across the street that is in part of the wealthiest part of Beaverton and is thusly heavily funded, meaning that all the best teachers, best programs, and best materials are available for the students. Go to north Portland where a lot of poor, lower class black families live, and their education system is shit. There are minimum standards that all schools must follow across the country (which aren't very high IMHO) - that's set and controlled at a federal level. But the states can do what they with with electives. > I believe it was either France or Germany that performed the best. Damn. :) I think the French need a humility class. ;-) > I don't actually know the different levels of schooling in America. While I > understand that Junior, Sophomore, Senior etc are different years, I don't > know which is the first or which is the last. In Britain we just give a Preschool - 0-5 years old Elementary school: Kindergarten - 5 years old Grade school: Grades 1-6 - 6-11 years old "Middle" or "Junior high" school: Grades 7-9 (or 7-8): High school or senior high: Freshman - Grade 9 Sophomore - Grade 10 Junior - Grade 11 Senior - Grade 12 So you're going to public school here (mandatory until grade 9) until you're 18. Grades 9-12 the student can drop out of. There are some rare cases where people drop out as low as 7th or 8th grade, but that's really an exception. After this you go to college - whether it be a community college (usually offering 2 year 'associates' degress) or a university (offering 4 year or 6 year degrees). Some handle doctorates as well - it depends upon the school. > for 2 years. You can then either try and get a job or go to University. The > two main types of course are HND (a Diploma - lasts for 2 years), Degree > (lasts for 2 years) or a degree with honours (three years). Hm... our bachelor's degrees last 4 years, so you'd be in school until you're 22! > goes all the way around the city. In fact, Chester used to be the Roman > capital of England. And we still have laws that date back hundreds of > years. For instance, it is still legal to kill a Welshman in Chester with a > longbow if you see him inside the city walls after midnight! I would guess that there are laws on the book that contradict it and prevent murder. ;-) Too bad there's no rule like that for the French! > And anyway, the word "quaint" is quite offensive to a lot of people. :) I consider it a "stylish" word that people use because they like the sound of it (rather than knowing what it means). It's certainly not in my vernacular. > > It works well enough to be the #1 military, economic, and cultural center > > of the world. ;-) But what you're not seeing is that our senators are > > elected in each state because of their mindset, and we're not often > > disappointed. It actually does work quite well. > You're the #1 economic center of the world. I don't know about cultural > center or military - especially not military as your country has bombed > it's own side in every war since WW2! ;) Well considering that the US is (unfortunately) emulated and envied in terms of culture around the world, it sure points to some strong evidence! And yep, we've bombed our own guys, but you and everyone else has, too. ;-) > I also think I used the wrong word. I didn't mean "Senator" but Governor. I > don't know the difference, but I think the Governor has less power. Aha - here's something about politics that I know that you don't! At least about US politics: Governor - Resides in the state and deals with the day to day runnings of state affairs. The most directly powerful person in a state. Senator - Resides in the senate in Washington DC at the federal level and lobbies/influences/votes for the state that they represent. They are actually peers with two separate jobs, though senators are looked more highly upon than Governors are. Both positions are elected offices by the people. > > > stereotype - though I do think that there are more shootings and killings > > > (or the ratio is higher) than in Britain or any other country I know about. > > Either that or we just glorify it more often when it happens. > I don't think so. There have been a couple of shootings in Britain - but > these weren't by school children but by members of the public who had > managed to get into the school. There've been 5 in the US in the past 2 years. Sounds like a lot more, right? Well how many times do you think a kid in Britain has brought a gun to school? When they do it in the states, it's national headlines. > I don't know how easy it is to get a gun in the US but I know that it is > really difficult in this country. You need to have a psycho-analysis, have It varies on a state by state basis, and it's in our constitution for the right to bear arms. Which means only the wackos go out and buy guns. There's a 5 day waiting period while they do a criminal check on you. If you have any assult charges or convictions, you don't get a gun. But a private party can sell a gun to anyone. And there's concealed weapons permits and other factors that allow you to carry a weapon at any time, but they're lots harder to get. > Anyway, Trainspotting wasn't about the English - it was about the Scottish! > ;) IT's tough for me to distinguish cockney and Scottish accents because I haven't heard them enough to REALLY know the difference. > And if you believe the movies, there are no coloured people in Notting Hill > and everyone speaks like Hugh Grant over here - like a big puff. :)) Except in the US, where politically correct activists now must place an obligatory black guy, Chinese guy, Indian guy, in every fucking scene of the movie even though you don't run into that in real life! > I agree that you have a good health system. However, it's also very > expensive. Yes it is, but that's what medical insurance is for. ;-) That's standard issue at any job you'll get in the states. > Ours is still very good, but free. Well, sort of. Money gets > taken out of your wages to pay for it, but it is also Government > subsidised. We call it "Medicade", where I'm forced to pay in to a huge pool of money to help pay for medical aid when I'm older. I don't have an option, and I'm pissed about it. > >From what I've heard about food in America (first hand reports), it appears > that there's no imagination. It appears that a lot of the food involves > steak. And foreign food (such as Italian) isn't so great. However, I've Steak? Really? I'd say that depends. In the midwest, it's much more prevalent. But in the western coast, it's far more diverse. Portland Oregon has the highest # of restaurants per capita in the *ENTIRE WORLD*. We have our share of boring restaurants, but there are a zillion others that are quite worthwhile! We have awesome German, Italian, Moroccan, Indian, Thai (ooooh, I love Thai food), etc... restaurants all over the city. > also heard that the Pizzas you make in America are the nicest in the world. I know of many places that are good, but tons that are absolute crap. Have a Domino's pizza sometime and it'll change that opinion quick! > And food is cheap. :) That's why we have so many fat asses here. > > One thing I don't understand about a lot of foreign countries is why > > everybody seems to smoke. Can't a country that has been around for > Yes, I agree here. Britain is at least getting better in that it's banning > advertising of cigarette adverts and making sure that certain places are no We banned cigarette advertising in billboards, TV, and radio ads over 30 years ago now. ;-) > smoking zones. Germany is definitely the worst place for this that I've > seen so far. Lots of people smoke around here! In California, not even bars allow smoking. In Oregon, almost no public restaurant allows smoking (in fact, I can't think of one offhand). It's filthy, disgusting, smelly, unheatlhy, and just a waste of money. > > And as I mentioned in my prior emails, why exactly is this so important, > > and why does that make US citizens look stupid? The reverse could be said: > > Why are you so interested in everyone else's affairs? ;-) > You seem like an intelligent person. Do you really think that what happens > in another state or another country doesn't affect you at all? It obviously > depends on what it is, but lots of important things affect other countries. Of course I do. But I don't particularly care what happens in Poland, but I certainly might care what happens in India or China! I think everything is a matter of degree. I know at a high level what's going on in other countries, as do most other US citizens. But I don't necessarily konw the names of the presidents, who they shagged last, or any of that other crap that the British (present company excluded) seem to love so much, like who Prince Charles is shagging. > > England isn't free of dipshits, either. You just value knowing the history > > of your surrounding neighbors. It just so happens that our "surrounding > > neighbors" span several thousand miles that we call "states". ;-) It has a > > common history/ancestry. > Certainly, Britain isn't free of dipshits and I wouldn't say that it is. In > terms of trouble-makers, England and Germany are the worst in Europe (look > at football games). It's just that while I'd say there are quite a lot of > intelligent people in America, you certainly have a really unfair share of > unintelligent. ;) I think that's a lopsided view. We've got a LOT of smart people in the US - some so intelligent that it scares the shit out of me. They tend to congregate in cities, though. > Okay, you can blame that on South America if you want. :) That's an ENTIRELY different world! > Anyway, I wasn't saying that I agree with these views, I was just letting > you know what they were. I've spoken to enough stupid Americans who knew > nothing about anything but spoke as if they did (I'll give you that, Yep, and they're just embarassing, lamebrained idiots. Tourists tend to be pretty clueless, because the smart ones are working all the time. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 03:04:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA14104 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:04:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E86C2C.D9DB801B@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:02:20 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Soo.... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Yeah, except it's not full blown racism. It's just merciless teasing! Ooh, I don't know... ;) > Since schools are state run (not federally run), the quality, depending > upon where the school is located, can vary *WIDELY*. Growing up, they > canned computer class so we could have a fucking football league. What a > joke! Whaaaat?! I'd be terribly pissed off at that. Luckily that never happened to me! > But at the same time, there's a K-6 school across the street that is in > part of the wealthiest part of Beaverton and is thusly heavily funded, > meaning that all the best teachers, best programs, and best materials are > available for the students. Go to north Portland where a lot of poor, > lower class black families live, and their education system is shit. Ah, right. Well, although we have privately funded schools, the majority of schools are funded by the state. The way they do that is per student so a big school has more money - but generally has less in the end because they need more teachers etc. > There are minimum standards that all schools must follow across the > country (which aren't very high IMHO) - that's set and controlled at a > federal level. But the states can do what they with with electives. It's pretty much the same here. > > I believe it was either France or Germany that performed the best. Damn. :) > > I think the French need a humility class. ;-) Indeed. I'm teaching them 1 by 1. ;) > High school or senior high: > > Freshman - Grade 9 So you're 14 when you're a Freshman? > So you're going to public school here (mandatory until grade 9) until > you're 18. Grades 9-12 the student can drop out of. There are some rare > cases where people drop out as low as 7th or 8th grade, but that's really > an exception. So you obviously aren't 14 when you're a Freshman. Hmm. :o > After this you go to college - whether it be a community college (usually > offering 2 year 'associates' degress) or a university (offering 4 year or > 6 year degrees). Some handle doctorates as well - it depends upon the > school. Of course, you can do doctorates here. But you have to go to a University to do one. > Hm... our bachelor's degrees last 4 years, so you'd be in school until > you're 22! I will be anyway! I already have letters after my name (with my 2 year Diploma) and I'm taking a degree at the moment. I'd like to take a MSc (Masters Degree) or PhD (Doctorate) but I won't - at 22 I believe I've been in the education system for too long. I'd rather go out and actually work. Hopefully doing something I enjoy! > > goes all the way around the city. In fact, Chester used to be the Roman > > capital of England. And we still have laws that date back hundreds of > > years. For instance, it is still legal to kill a Welshman in Chester with a > > longbow if you see him inside the city walls after midnight! > > I would guess that there are laws on the book that contradict it and > prevent murder. ;-) Too bad there's no rule like that for the French! No. The way that the legal system in the UK works is by precedent. So a judge passes a sentence on someone and that becomes law. The only way that can be changed is in a court of appeal (or any other higher court). While it may sound strange, it still works. BTW, did you know that people can still be hung in this country? No-one has been since 1969, but it's still possible. All you have to do is commit treason (an act against the Queen). And seeing as the Royal Mail is... well, Royal, all you have to do is to steal a letter and it's treason. So you could get hung for it. Strange but true! > > And anyway, the word "quaint" is quite offensive to a lot of people. :) > > I consider it a "stylish" word that people use because they like the sound > of it (rather than knowing what it means). It's certainly not in my > vernacular. It's in mine, but I wouldn't use it. I know what the word means, so I'd consider it offensive too! Luckily I haven't heard an American say it to me. :) > > You're the #1 economic center of the world. I don't know about cultural > > center or military - especially not military as your country has bombed > > it's own side in every war since WW2! ;) > > Well considering that the US is (unfortunately) emulated and envied in > terms of culture around the world, it sure points to some strong evidence! > And yep, we've bombed our own guys, but you and everyone else has, too. > ;-) I really don't know what you mean about culture - that's the first time I've heard that ever! AFAIK America isn't envied for culture. And also, AFAIK, America envies Europe for exactly the same! And as for the military, yes - we've bombed our own side too. It's just that we've had wars where we haven't. Which is more than you. ;) > > I also think I used the wrong word. I didn't mean "Senator" but Governor. I > > don't know the difference, but I think the Governor has less power. > > Aha - here's something about politics that I know that you don't! At least > about US politics: > > Governor - Resides in the state and deals with the day to day runnings of > state affairs. The most directly powerful person in a state. > > Senator - Resides in the senate in Washington DC at the federal level and > lobbies/influences/votes for the state that they represent. > > They are actually peers with two separate jobs, though senators are looked > more highly upon than Governors are. Both positions are elected offices by > the people. That's the one - it's definitely a Governor that I meant. It's just remembering - your legal and political systems work a whole lot differently than the one I'm used to. > > I don't think so. There have been a couple of shootings in Britain - but > > these weren't by school children but by members of the public who had > > managed to get into the school. > > There've been 5 in the US in the past 2 years. Sounds like a lot more, > right? Well how many times do you think a kid in Britain has brought a gun > to school? When they do it in the states, it's national headlines. I know children have brought air-rifles into school - but I don't know of any who brought in a pistol or any other type of handgun. 5 in 2 years is too many, but how can you stop it? I know there hasn't been that many in Britain - at least not by children. The horrific one was in Dublain where a man came in and shot lots of children and teachers. That was about 2 years ago now. I'd be more concerned about how to stop things like this happening than exaggerating the whole story and printing a load of meaningless drivel. > > I don't know how easy it is to get a gun in the US but I know that it is > > really difficult in this country. You need to have a psycho-analysis, have > > It varies on a state by state basis, and it's in our constitution for the > right to bear arms. Which means only the wackos go out and buy guns. Yes, I figured that. I know it's in your constitution. Maybe it should be changed, but it'd be a brave government that tried to do it (I know why it's in the constitution). But, at the end of the day, the constitution was written for that time and maybe it should be changed. But even if that happens, will it stop? Probably not. > There's a 5 day waiting period while they do a criminal check on you. If > you have any assult charges or convictions, you don't get a gun. But a > private party can sell a gun to anyone. Hmm, not sure that's a great idea. > And there's concealed weapons permits and other factors that allow you to > carry a weapon at any time, but they're lots harder to get. It's still scary. Easy access to weapons like that. Not good. :-/ > > Anyway, Trainspotting wasn't about the English - it was about the Scottish! > > ;) > > IT's tough for me to distinguish cockney and Scottish accents because I > haven't heard them enough to REALLY know the difference. I understand. I can tell the difference between North, Mid and Southern America accents - but if there are accents on a state-to-state (or even inter-state) basis then I don't think I could. I could tell you were American though. ;) In Britain I'm quite good with accents. I can place people to within 50 miles of their home town in England - there are so many accents. Although it does get difficult with Scottish, Irish and Welsh accents. I can then only place them to the quarter of that country (NE, NW, SE, SW, N, S, E, W). And some Irish accents I just can't understand too well. And considering I've lived with 3 Irish guys for 9 months, that's bad! I'm sure you could tell the difference between Scottish and Cockney accents if you heard two people from Scotland and London talking. You might not know which is which, but you could tell the difference! > > And if you believe the movies, there are no coloured people in Notting Hill > > and everyone speaks like Hugh Grant over here - like a big puff. :)) > > Except in the US, where politically correct activists now must place an > obligatory black guy, Chinese guy, Indian guy, in every fucking scene of > the movie even though you don't run into that in real life! Political correctness tried to make its way over to Britain, but died a sudden death. > > I agree that you have a good health system. However, it's also very > > expensive. > > Yes it is, but that's what medical insurance is for. ;-) That's standard > issue at any job you'll get in the states. You can have medical insurance here for private healthcare. But that's not a normal package you get with your job. > > Ours is still very good, but free. Well, sort of. Money gets > > taken out of your wages to pay for it, but it is also Government > > subsidised. > > We call it "Medicade", where I'm forced to pay in to a huge pool of money > to help pay for medical aid when I'm older. I don't have an option, and > I'm pissed about it. What's the state with pensions over there? Up until last year, everyone used to have a state pension (some money would go out of your wages) - but anyone who starts up now will have to have a private pension. > Steak? Really? I'd say that depends. In the midwest, it's much more > prevalent. But in the western coast, it's far more diverse. Portland > Oregon has the highest # of restaurants per capita in the *ENTIRE WORLD*. > We have our share of boring restaurants, but there are a zillion others > that are quite worthwhile! We have awesome German, Italian, Moroccan, > Indian, Thai (ooooh, I love Thai food), etc... restaurants all over the > city. You have German restaurants? What do they serve? I cannot, for the life of me, find a German restaurant *anywhere*! I can find German-owned restaurants, but the food they cook is no different to any other restaurant! One of the French guys I share a house with is of Moroccon descent (his parents are Moroccon). I've tasted Moroccon food when he's cooked some and it's quite nice. Fairly hot too. Suits me down to the ground. I love Thai food a lot - and Indian food is the most popular in Britain. In fact, the #1 meal to have in Britain is "Chicken Tikka Masalla" - which was even *invented* in Britain and sent back to India! So, yes, I like Indian food too. And I like spices. It generally doesn't matter how spicy the food is, I'll eat it and enjoy it. :) > > also heard that the Pizzas you make in America are the nicest in the world. > > I know of many places that are good, but tons that are absolute crap. Have > a Domino's pizza sometime and it'll change that opinion quick! I've never been to America (hope to change that this year), but people who have tell me that the Pizzas are the best they've ever had. I like Pizza, so I'll have to do some research! :) > > And food is cheap. :) > > That's why we have so many fat asses here. Oh yeah, that's the other thing that we see about America. Everyone is fat. Now I know that's not true - but that's certainly the image we have. Or, let's change that. Every woman under 35 is really thin and attractive. Over that and they're fat and unattractive. You can thank the film industry for that, probably... > > Yes, I agree here. Britain is at least getting better in that it's banning > > advertising of cigarette adverts and making sure that certain places are no > > We banned cigarette advertising in billboards, TV, and radio ads over 30 > years ago now. ;-) I think it was about 1 year ago for Britain. Still, so long as it gets done... > > smoking zones. Germany is definitely the worst place for this that I've > > seen so far. Lots of people smoke around here! > > In California, not even bars allow smoking. In Oregon, almost no public > restaurant allows smoking (in fact, I can't think of one offhand). It's > filthy, disgusting, smelly, unheatlhy, and just a waste of money. I agree. I hate it, myself. I take it you live in Oregon? > > You seem like an intelligent person. Do you really think that what happens > > in another state or another country doesn't affect you at all? It obviously > > depends on what it is, but lots of important things affect other countries. > > Of course I do. But I don't particularly care what happens in Poland, but > I certainly might care what happens in India or China! I think everything > is a matter of degree. I know at a high level what's going on in other > countries, as do most other US citizens. But I don't necessarily konw the > names of the presidents, who they shagged last, or any of that other crap > that the British (present company excluded) seem to love so much, like who > Prince Charles is shagging. I don't particularly care what happens in Poland either. I agree that it's on a matter of degree - but let's give you an example. Last year was the big forest fires in California. Spoke to some Americans who didn't even know about it. The annoying thing is that the media think that we care who Bill Clinton has been shagging last, where he did it and what position he used. I don't care. :) Nor do I care about Prince Charles - or any other member of the Royal family for that matter. So yes, I'll probably get hung now. :) > I think that's a lopsided view. We've got a LOT of smart people in the US > - some so intelligent that it scares the shit out of me. They tend to > congregate in cities, though. Guess they're too intelligent to talk to me then. :) > > Okay, you can blame that on South America if you want. :) > > That's an ENTIRELY different world! Heh. ;) > > Anyway, I wasn't saying that I agree with these views, I was just letting > > you know what they were. I've spoken to enough stupid Americans who knew > > nothing about anything but spoke as if they did (I'll give you that, > > Yep, and they're just embarassing, lamebrained idiots. Tourists tend to be > pretty clueless, because the smart ones are working all the time. ;-) Yes, that's pretty true. And tourists don't try and learn the local ways of life or languages for the most part when they're British or American. That's quite bad. Both have a bad reputation because of this. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 04:11:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14226 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 04:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 03:43:54 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> http://www.avault.com/hardware/buttonless.asp >Looks like April fools to me. Yeah, sure. I actually wanted to send the mail on April 1st but that damn SMTP didn't let me. But it seems you figured it out anyway ;-) Has anyone found other April fools? This was the only one I stumbled across on the web. Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 04:20:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14254 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 04:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:21:26 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Hehehe, I think you are wrong, my spoken english is really worst :) >If you heared Almodovar speaking then you know the tipical spanish english. Billy Crystals commentary was: Against Pedro Roberto Bergnini sounds like an English teacher... >It's "Planet of Twilight" and Daala helps Han Solo to deal with some kind of enemy >float. Maybe I have to read that then... Thanks for checking it! Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 06:41:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA14549 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 06:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E89F57.B94EA023@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:40:39 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Looks like April fools to me. > > Yeah, sure. I actually wanted to send the mail on April 1st but that > damn SMTP didn't let me. But it seems you figured it out anyway ;-) It was the "Oompah-Loompah" bit that gave it away to me. That and the buttonless bit. :) > Has anyone found other April fools? This was the only one I stumbled > across on the web. Found one about a new hoverboard (as in Back to the Future 2). There were a few. Funnily enough, one guy did an April Fool, upset a load of people and has now quit one site. I find that amusing anyway. If you're going to play a joke, be prepared for a backlash off people who have no sense of humour! :) I was going to do one on my site, but I could only think of cruel ones - so I didn't bother. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 07:08:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14619 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:08:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:02:43 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It was the "Oompah-Loompah" bit that gave it away to me. That and the >buttonless bit. :) Well, I couldn't believe the buttonlessbit too, but the fake was revealed when they claimed that their frag count in Q3A increased by 50% ;-) I didn't know what Oompah-Loompah are anyway... >Found one about a new hoverboard (as in Back to the Future 2). There were a >few. Seems I'm visiting the wrong sites... >Funnily enough, one guy did an April Fool, upset a load of people and >has now quit one site. I find that amusing anyway. If you're going to play >a joke, be prepared for a backlash off people who have no sense of humour! >:) Yeah, too bad. >I was going to do one on my site, but I could only think of cruel ones - so >I didn't bother. :) You even have your own site? Anything interesting? Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 07:22:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14652 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:22:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E8A8A9.D311AA3D@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:20:25 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >It was the "Oompah-Loompah" bit that gave it away to me. That and the > >buttonless bit. :) > > Well, I couldn't believe the buttonlessbit too, but the fake was > revealed when they claimed that their frag count in Q3A increased by > 50% ;-) That's possible - if they're badly arthritic or just have general hand problems. For a normal person, though, I'd agree. :) > I didn't know what Oompah-Loompah are anyway... Ooh. There's a famous British childrens author called "Rhoal Dahl" (I think that's how you spell his name) who wrote "Charlie and the chocolate factory". The Oompah-Loohmpahs are small people who used to work in the factory from the book. Ooh, that brings back memories. I used to have all of his books. Other books by him are "James and the giant peach" and "Danny the champion of the world". Oh yes, he also wrote "Matilda". Definite memory material there. I haven't read those books since I was 11 or under! :o > >Found one about a new hoverboard (as in Back to the Future 2). There > were a > >few. > > Seems I'm visiting the wrong sites... The link is still on RetroGames (http://www.retrogames.com). > >Funnily enough, one guy did an April Fool, upset a load of people and > >has now quit one site. I find that amusing anyway. If you're going to > play > >a joke, be prepared for a backlash off people who have no sense of > humour! > >:) > > Yeah, too bad. I don't know what the joke was either. Damn! They've deleted it! :o > >I was going to do one on my site, but I could only think of cruel ones > - so > >I didn't bother. :) > > You even have your own site? Anything interesting? That depends on whether you have a S3 card. I'm one of the authors of S3Tweak and the website I work on is "S3 Planet" (http://www.s3p.co.uk). It's because of this that I know so much (or little!) about 3D and 3D cards. Apart from the site being the longest running (and the first!) S3 customer support site, we're all completely unbiased. That's why S3 don't talk to us that much anymore. :)) Still, we write S3Tweak, so they can't complain. And if we do... well, there'd be a whole load of p*ssed off people. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 08:22:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA14830 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:24:29 CEST From: "Michael Koenig" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: BeOS Mail [R4.5.2] Message-Id: Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ooh. There's a famous British childrens author called "Rhoal Dahl" (I think >that's how you spell his name) who wrote "Charlie and the chocolate >factory". The Oompah-Loohmpahs are small people who used to work in the >factory from the book. Ah, I think you mean Roald Dahl and he also wrote books like "Kiss Kiss" which surely aren't for children. Only few people know that he also created the Gremlins for his novel "Some Time Never". I always tried to get this book but without any luck :-( >Ooh, that brings back memories. I used to have all of his books. Other >books by him are "James and the giant peach" and "Danny the champion of the >world". Oh yes, he also wrote "Matilda". Definite memory material there. I >haven't read those books since I was 11 or under! :o One of the best German children book authors is Otfried Preussler. He wrote books like Hotzenplotz, The Little Witch, or Krabat. >That depends on whether you have a S3 card. Nope. >I'm one of the authors of >S3Tweak and the website I work on is "S3 Planet" (http:// www.s3p.co.uk). >It's because of this that I know so much (or little!) about 3D and 3D >cards. Ah, this explains some things. >Apart from the site being the longest running (and the first!) S3 >customer support site, we're all completely unbiased. That's why S3 don't >talk to us that much anymore. :)) >Still, we write S3Tweak, so they can't complain. And if we do... well, >there'd be a whole load of p*ssed off people. :) Hehe ;-) BTW, which chipset does your card have? Since BeOS 5 supports the following: S3 Virge, Virge DX, and Virge GX (but not VX or HX) Bye, M.I.K.e --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 08:40:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA14877 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:40:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E8BA93.EAFD0D24@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:36:51 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Ah, I think you mean Roald Dahl and he also wrote books like "Kiss > Kiss" which surely aren't for children. Only few people know that he > also created the Gremlins for his novel "Some Time Never". I always > tried to get this book but without any luck :-( Roald Dahl, that's the one. I knew how to SAY the name, just not how to spell it. :) I've never heard of "Kiss Kiss" (should I?) nor "Some Time Never". Heh. :) > One of the best German children book authors is Otfried Preussler. He > wrote books like Hotzenplotz, The Little Witch, or Krabat. "The Little Witch" I've heard of - assuming it was translated. Otherwise... no. > >That depends on whether you have a S3 card. > > Nope. That's probably a good thing! ;) > >It's because of this that I know so much (or little!) about 3D and 3D > >cards. > > Ah, this explains some things. I'm one of the few people running any sort of 3D card site who actually: a) Knows about 3D and 3D techniques and b) Is willing to criticize the company the site is about and c) Knows a fair bit about other cards :) > >Still, we write S3Tweak, so they can't complain. And if we do... well, > >there'd be a whole load of p*ssed off people. :) > > Hehe ;-) It's not quite blackmail. But if they insist of having crap support... > BTW, which chipset does your card have? Since BeOS 5 supports the > following: > S3 Virge, Virge DX, and Virge GX (but not VX or HX) My card at the moment is a Savage2K. So it isn't supported. Arse. But I do have a ViRGE /DX - and a Savage3D (several, in fact). And a Savage4 (several of those too!). I'm willing to get a GeForce - but as I see it, their support isn't particularly better. They've still got driver problems. At least for the S2K S3 have an excuse (it's a new chip with a new design). The Savage4 they had no excuse for - it was basically a Savage3D with some hardware bugs removed, some added for good measure - and a strange form of multi-texturing. 3Dfx are probably the worst for support, actually. I mean... how long did it take them to get an ICD? And, AFAIK, they still haven't got a full ICD. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 10:27:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15176 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:27:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38E8BA93.EAFD0D24@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003645eb63ca785_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38E8BA93.EAFD0D24@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:27:57 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Roald Dahl, that's the one. I knew how to SAY the name, just not how to >spell it. :) BTW, I just found out that he was born in Wales ;-) >I've never heard of "Kiss Kiss" (should I?) nor "Some Time Never". Heh. :) "Kiss Kiss" and some other books contain lots of strange short strories similar to Poe or Kafka but a lot funnier. In one story (but not from Kiss Kiss) a wife kills her husband with a frozen lamb leg. Until the police arrives she cocks it and they end up eating the "weapon" ;-) >"The Little Witch" I've heard of - assuming it was translated. Otherwise... >no. Some of Otfried Preussler's books were translated into several languages. >> >That depends on whether you have a S3 card. >> Nope. >That's probably a good thing! ;) Hehe. Are they that bad? >I'm one of the few people running any sort of 3D card site who actually: >a) Knows about 3D and 3D techniques and >b) Is willing to criticize the company the site is about and >c) Knows a fair bit about other cards I certainly cannot claim that for myself. >My card at the moment is a Savage2K. So it isn't supported. Arse. But I do >have a ViRGE /DX - and a Savage3D (several, in fact). And a Savage4 >(several of those too!). Erm, do you have several cards in your computers or are these just spare ones? >I'm willing to get a GeForce - but as I see it, their support isn't >particularly better. They've still got driver problems. And no diver for BeOS yet... >3Dfx are probably the worst for support, actually. I mean... how long did >it take them to get an ICD? And, AFAIK, they still haven't got a full ICD. ICD? Yet another acronym I don't know? -- M.I.Ke First Law of Bicycling: No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the wind. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 10:33:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15204 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:33:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:33:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Those wacky Germans Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Will men in German town take toilet order sitting down? March 31, 2000 Web posted at: 10:58 p.m. EST (0358 GMT) BERLIN (Reuters) -- Germany's reputation for precision has taken a knock, judging by a ban on urinating while standing that has been imposed on tenants in an east German apartment block, the daily Bild reported Friday. Landlords, complaining that misdirected urine is causing their radiators to rust, ordered male tenants to answer the call of nature off their feet. But men in the town of Radeburg are not taking the the ban ban sitting down. "I'm not going to let anybody tell me how I take care of business. I'm going to carry on standing. Basta!" said local cemetery worker Juergen Galler. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 10:56:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15287 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:56:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Those wacky Germans From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003645f17e2b795_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:55:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Will men in German town take toilet order sitting down? I won't!!! Damn females, they are just jealous! -- M.I.Ke Ducharme's Axiom: If you view your problem closely enough you will recognize yourself as part of the problem. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 14:27:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16133 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00a601bf9dbb$8bf38220$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <0003645f17e2b795_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Those wacky Germans Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:00:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Will men in German town take toilet order sitting down? > > I won't!!! Nor me. Hey, I'm not German. Whew! ;) > Damn females, they are just jealous! Yeah. They just want to be able to write their names in the snow too. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 14:27:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16137 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00a501bf9dbb$8af01be0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <38E8BA93.EAFD0D24@eurocopter.de> <0003645eb63ca785_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:58:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Roald Dahl, that's the one. I knew how to SAY the name, just not how to > >spell it. :) > > BTW, I just found out that he was born in Wales ;-) Really? I never knew that. I wonder if he speaks Welsh? It'd be quite funny if he didn't. Him being born in Wales and not speaking it - and me NOT being born in Wales but being able to speak it! :) > >I've never heard of "Kiss Kiss" (should I?) nor "Some Time Never". Heh. :) > > "Kiss Kiss" and some other books contain lots of strange short strories > similar to Poe or Kafka but a lot funnier. In one story (but not from Kiss > Kiss) a wife kills her husband with a frozen lamb leg. Until the police > arrives she cocks it and they end up eating the "weapon" ;-) Heh. Nope, not heard of them before! > >"The Little Witch" I've heard of - assuming it was translated. Otherwise... > >no. > > Some of Otfried Preussler's books were translated into several languages. Okay. Well I guess I've read a book by a German author now. Damn. And I was trying to avoid it... ;) > >> >That depends on whether you have a S3 card. > >> Nope. > >That's probably a good thing! ;) > > Hehe. Are they that bad? No, not really. But I do like to tease. :) > >I'm one of the few people running any sort of 3D card site who actually: > >a) Knows about 3D and 3D techniques and > >b) Is willing to criticize the company the site is about and > >c) Knows a fair bit about other cards > > I certainly cannot claim that for myself. I have to. If only so that I can compare to other cards. There are not many other website owners that I can respect for the same thing... There are a few - just not so many. :-/ > >My card at the moment is a Savage2K. So it isn't supported. Arse. But I do > >have a ViRGE /DX - and a Savage3D (several, in fact). And a Savage4 > >(several of those too!). > > Erm, do you have several cards in your computers or are these just spare > ones? Spare. I'll probably have two in my machine when I go home, though. Mainly because I can then dual-monitor. Which has got to make programming so much easier. :) > >I'm willing to get a GeForce - but as I see it, their support isn't > >particularly better. They've still got driver problems. > > And no diver for BeOS yet... No, but that's up to the Be team to implement. nVidea certainly aren't going to do it themselves - not enough demand. > >3Dfx are probably the worst for support, actually. I mean... how long did > >it take them to get an ICD? And, AFAIK, they still haven't got a full ICD. > > ICD? Yet another acronym I don't know? Installable Client Driver. It's a full OpenGL implementation. Anything less is a MiniGL. The other word you may have heard of is MCD - Microsoft Client Driver. I bet you can guess what that is. ;) > First Law of Bicycling: > No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the > wind. I completely agree. That - and car drivers are complete bastards when you're riding a bike. :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 14:30:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16165 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:30:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:30:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <00a501bf9dbb$8af01be0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >> >That depends on whether you have a S3 card. > > >> Nope. > > >That's probably a good thing! ;) > > Hehe. Are they that bad? > No, not really. But I do like to tease. :) Actually, yes, they are. > > >My card at the moment is a Savage2K. So it isn't supported. Arse. But I > > >have a ViRGE /DX - and a Savage3D (several, in fact). And a Savage4 > > >(several of those too!). > > Erm, do you have several cards in your computers or are these just spare > > ones? > Spare. I'll probably have two in my machine when I go home, though. Mainly > because I can then dual-monitor. Which has got to make programming so much > easier. :) I've got two 770 Ultras in my Windows 2K box and I run dual monitors. I can't live without it now. > No, but that's up to the Be team to implement. nVidea certainly aren't going > to do it themselves - not enough demand. Nvidia, actually. ;-) > > First Law of Bicycling: > > No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the > > wind. > I completely agree. That - and car drivers are complete bastards when you're > riding a bike. :-/ Being someone who was both a cyclist and a motorist in downtown Portland, I can say that the assholedom is far worse with bicyclists - at least in Portland. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 14:37:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16200 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00ba01bf9dbc$ea6a22e0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:35:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > > Hehe. Are they that bad? > > No, not really. But I do like to tease. :) > > Actually, yes, they are. After having one for 5 years and also using a TNT for some time, I can say that I prefer S3. I had much more problems with the TNT when I had it. > > Spare. I'll probably have two in my machine when I go home, though. Mainly > > because I can then dual-monitor. Which has got to make programming so much > > easier. :) > > I've got two 770 Ultras in my Windows 2K box and I run dual monitors. I > can't live without it now. As I say, it's got to be useful. I can think of so many good things to implement with it! > > No, but that's up to the Be team to implement. nVidea certainly aren't going > > to do it themselves - not enough demand. > > Nvidia, actually. ;-) Really? Strange. :) > > I completely agree. That - and car drivers are complete bastards when you're > > riding a bike. :-/ > > Being someone who was both a cyclist and a motorist in downtown Portland, > I can say that the assholedom is far worse with bicyclists - at least in > Portland. I take it you've never been knocked off your bike by a motorist on the wrong side of the road then? And then when they see you lying in a pool of blood with half your face ripped open they drive off? Never happened to you? Well, it has to me. So I have a rather low opinion of car drivers. Especially when they drive on MY side of the road at ridiculous speeds. And to drive off after hitting me... That's the epitomy of arseholeness. All I can say is that it's a good job my face healed so well. I'm still scarred under my eye though... :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 14:43:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16232 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:47:32 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <00ba01bf9dbc$ea6a22e0$0100a8c0@lion> In-Reply-To: <00ba01bf9dbc$ea6a22e0$0100a8c0@lion> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:35:25 +0100, "Neil Griffiths" wrote: >> Being someone who was both a cyclist and a motorist in downtown Portland, >> I can say that the assholedom is far worse with bicyclists - at least in >> Portland. > >I take it you've never been knocked off your bike by a motorist on the wrong >side of the road then? And then when they see you lying in a pool of blood >with half your face ripped open they drive off? Never happened to you? Well, >it has to me. So I have a rather low opinion of car drivers. Especially when >they drive on MY side of the road at ridiculous speeds. And to drive off >after hitting me... That's the epitomy of arseholeness. All I can say is >that it's a good job my face healed so well. I'm still scarred under my eye >though... :-/ That's a pretty serious offense here in the US. "Leaving the scene of an accident" or "hit and run" depending on the seriousness of the accident. Add to that "crossing a double yellow line" (we use double yellow lines in the center/centre of our roadways). Did they catch the ^$#&(* blighter? -- Jack ---- The road to truth and enlightenment is long... be sure to bring a snack and something to drink - Seen on a bumper sticker --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 14:43:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16241 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:43:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:43:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <00ba01bf9dbc$ea6a22e0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > No, not really. But I do like to tease. :) > > Actually, yes, they are. > After having one for 5 years and also using a TNT for some time, I can say > that I prefer S3. I had much more problems with the TNT when I had it. I had exactly the opposite experience. I couldn't get the S3 to work reliably, especially under Windows. The TNT series has always been awesome. > > can't live without it now. > As I say, it's got to be useful. I can think of so many good things to > implement with it! DOUBLE PORN! ;-=) > > Being someone who was both a cyclist and a motorist in downtown Portland, > > I can say that the assholedom is far worse with bicyclists - at least in > > Portland. > I take it you've never been knocked off your bike by a motorist on the wrong > side of the road then? And then when they see you lying in a pool of blood > with half your face ripped open they drive off? Never happened to you? Well, Not face ripped open, but I've been knocked down by passing motorists whose mirrors stick out so far that they smack me. But yes, I have had that happen. And I cycled far more than I drove when I lived downtown. > it has to me. So I have a rather low opinion of car drivers. Especially when > they drive on MY side of the road at ridiculous speeds. And to drive off > after hitting me... That's the epitomy of arseholeness. All I can say is > that it's a good job my face healed so well. I'm still scarred under my eye > though... :-/ It's quite the opposite here. Bicyclists often hold up traffic, run red lights, turn in front of you for no reason and act like YOU are the jerk for being on the road, etc... It's to the point where cyclists act like they own the whole fucking road but don't bother to obey the rules of the road which they are required by law to do. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 14:50:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16302 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:50:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00cd01bf9dbe$d2a2e0a0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <00ba01bf9dbc$ea6a22e0$0100a8c0@lion> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:46:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > That's a pretty serious offense here in the US. "Leaving the scene of > an accident" or "hit and run" depending on the seriousness of the > accident. Add to that "crossing a double yellow line" (we use double > yellow lines in the center/centre of our roadways). Did they catch the > ^$#&(* blighter? No. And if they did, I'd probably kill the git. Whatever, I'm scarred for life. Only happened a year and a half ago... :-/ It's a serious offence, but the police weren't bothered. Wasn't happy about it, but that's the way it goes. Hmm. :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 14:50:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16309 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00ce01bf9dbe$d35b8240$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:49:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > After having one for 5 years and also using a TNT for some time, I can say > > that I prefer S3. I had much more problems with the TNT when I had it. > > I had exactly the opposite experience. I couldn't get the S3 to work > reliably, especially under Windows. The TNT series has always been > awesome. Oh well. :) > > As I say, it's got to be useful. I can think of so many good things to > > implement with it! > > DOUBLE PORN! ;-=) Well... yeah. :) > > I take it you've never been knocked off your bike by a motorist on the wrong > > side of the road then? And then when they see you lying in a pool of blood > > with half your face ripped open they drive off? Never happened to you? Well, > > Not face ripped open, but I've been knocked down by passing motorists > whose mirrors stick out so far that they smack me. But yes, I have had > that happen. And I cycled far more than I drove when I lived downtown. I haven't cycled since - though that's more due to the lack of opportunity than fear. But yes, the car hit me at roughly 50mph - ~80kph. Fast, whatever. Especially in a 30mph limit... > > it has to me. So I have a rather low opinion of car drivers. Especially when > > they drive on MY side of the road at ridiculous speeds. And to drive off > > after hitting me... That's the epitomy of arseholeness. All I can say is > > that it's a good job my face healed so well. I'm still scarred under my eye > > though... :-/ > > It's quite the opposite here. Bicyclists often hold up traffic, run red > lights, turn in front of you for no reason and act like YOU are the jerk > for being on the road, etc... It's to the point where cyclists act like > they own the whole fucking road but don't bother to obey the rules of the > road which they are required by law to do. I'd say that it's the few who do this that give the rest a bad name. Personally I believe that you should be required to have a licence to ride a bike on the road. That'd solve the problem. And more bike lanes too... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 15:04:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16394 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:04:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <00a501bf9dbb$8af01be0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <0003646285344d0c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38E8BA93.EAFD0D24@eurocopter.de> <0003645eb63ca785_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <00a501bf9dbb$8af01be0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:00:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Really? I never knew that. I wonder if he speaks Welsh? It'd be quite funny >if he didn't. Him being born in Wales and not speaking it - and me NOT being >born in Wales but being able to speak it! :) I'm not sure. I think his parents are from Norway... Where were you born if not in Wales? >Heh. Nope, not heard of them before! Strange, I Germany he's more well-known for these short stories than his children books. >Okay. Well I guess I've read a book by a German author now. Damn. And I was >trying to avoid it... ;) Hehe. One German author you should avoid is Günter Grass, especially the book "Die Blechtromel". But a must read is "Faust" by Wolfgang Goethe, I'm sure I mentioned that already... >Spare. I'll probably have two in my machine when I go home, though. Mainly >because I can then dual-monitor. Which has got to make programming so much >easier. :) For me it's the other way round: I have one monitor for two computers... >No, but that's up to the Be team to implement. It would be nice if Be receives enough publicity that this changes. According to some estimations the Personal Edition of BeOS 5 was downloaded over half a million times up to the fourth day after its first announcement. >Installable Client Driver. It's a full OpenGL implementation. Anything less >is a MiniGL. Ah, now I know. I even searched the 3Dfx site to get this driver but found nothing... >The other word you may have heard of is MCD - Microsoft Client >Driver. I bet you can guess what that is. ;) That's a hard one: D3D? ;-) >> First Law of Bicycling: >> No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the >> wind. Indeed! -- M.I.Ke Beware of low-flying butterflies. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 15:04:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16402 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036462967e50a1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:05:24 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> No, but that's up to the Be team to implement. nVidea certainly aren't >>going to do it themselves - not enough demand. >Nvidia, actually. ;-) Really? I wonder why there is a project for an unofficial driver then... -- M.I.Ke We can defeat gravity. The problem is the paperwork involved. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 15:04:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16409 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Those wacky Germans From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <00a601bf9dbb$8bf38220$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <000364628f560d76_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003645f17e2b795_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <00a601bf9dbb$8bf38220$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:03:24 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Nor me. Hey, I'm not German. Whew! ;) Lucky you ;-) >Yeah. They just want to be able to write their names in the snow too. :)) If you drank so much to be able to write your name then you won't get the spelling right ;-) BTW, what I always wanted to ask you: Don't all the Germans you know have severe problems to pronounce your last name correctly? I bet it'll sound like "Griffisss" then. -- M.I.Ke Excellent day to have a rotten day. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 15:36:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16525 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:40:22 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: <9a7ies06udrojgr5jq1kos9pktmm7l643d@4ax.com> References: <00ba01bf9dbc$ea6a22e0$0100a8c0@lion> <00cd01bf9dbe$d2a2e0a0$0100a8c0@lion> In-Reply-To: <00cd01bf9dbe$d2a2e0a0$0100a8c0@lion> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:46:32 +0100, "Neil Griffiths" wrote: >Hi, > > >> That's a pretty serious offense here in the US. "Leaving the scene of >> an accident" or "hit and run" depending on the seriousness of the >> accident. Add to that "crossing a double yellow line" (we use double >> yellow lines in the center/centre of our roadways). Did they catch the >> ^$#&(* blighter? > >No. And if they did, I'd probably kill the git. Whatever, I'm scarred for >life. Only happened a year and a half ago... :-/ He was probably a tourist: "Hey Martha - Look at that quaint English boy bleeding to death on the side of the road." -- Jack ---- The road to truth and enlightenment is long... be sure to bring a snack and something to drink - Seen on a bumper sticker --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 15:41:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16547 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:41:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <00ce01bf9dbe$d35b8240$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Not face ripped open, but I've been knocked down by passing motorists > > whose mirrors stick out so far that they smack me. But yes, I have had > > that happen. And I cycled far more than I drove when I lived downtown. > I haven't cycled since - though that's more due to the lack of opportunity > than fear. But yes, the car hit me at roughly 50mph - ~80kph. Fast, > whatever. Especially in a 30mph limit... Okay, but at 30 you'd still be hurt just as bad. Just because the guy was driving too fast doesn't necessarily mean it was reckless or negligent. It's easy to do harm driving too slow! > > It's quite the opposite here. Bicyclists often hold up traffic, run red > > lights, turn in front of you for no reason and act like YOU are the jerk > > for being on the road, etc... It's to the point where cyclists act like > > they own the whole fucking road but don't bother to obey the rules of the > > road which they are required by law to do. > I'd say that it's the few who do this that give the rest a bad name. No, it's few who *DON'T&* do this, and besides, you don't live where I live - you couldn't know! > Personally I believe that you should be required to have a licence to ride a > bike on the road. That'd solve the problem. And more bike lanes too... I agree. And give shotguns to motorists for rude bicyclists. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 18:17:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA17057 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:17:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003646548db972f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 03:18:26 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Okay, but at 30 you'd still be hurt just as bad. Just because the guy was >driving too fast doesn't necessarily mean it was reckless or negligent. >It's easy to do harm driving too slow! True, but I live in a street with a 30kph limit and I couldn't drive much faster than that although I know the street by heart (the problem are playing children and lots of cars parking on the street). I don't know how some people think that they can drive 60 to 70kph, apart from the fact that they are not allowed to. >> > It's quite the opposite here. Bicyclists often hold up traffic, run red >> > lights, turn in front of you for no reason and act like YOU are the jerk >> > for being on the road, etc... It's to the point where cyclists act like >> > they own the whole fucking road but don't bother to obey the rules of the >> > road which they are required by law to do. >> I'd say that it's the few who do this that give the rest a bad name. What I hate is when they drive on the street although a special bike lane is available. >I agree. And give shotguns to motorists for rude bicyclists. OK, but then I also want to have a granade launcher for my bike against all those drivers who think they have a special license to park right on the bike lanes! -- M.I.Ke Boob's Law: You always find something in the last place you look. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 23:19:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17737 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:19:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E988EA.DAEB4CB3@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:17:14 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft References: <00ba01bf9dbc$ea6a22e0$0100a8c0@lion> <00cd01bf9dbe$d2a2e0a0$0100a8c0@lion> <9a7ies06udrojgr5jq1kos9pktmm7l643d@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >No. And if they did, I'd probably kill the git. Whatever, I'm scarred for > >life. Only happened a year and a half ago... :-/ > > He was probably a tourist: "Hey Martha - Look at that quaint English > boy bleeding to death on the side of the road." Heh. Who knows? :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 23:28:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17765 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:28:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E98ACB.EBEC388E@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:25:15 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Okay, but at 30 you'd still be hurt just as bad. Just because the guy was > driving too fast doesn't necessarily mean it was reckless or negligent. > It's easy to do harm driving too slow! I'd have been hurt, but not as bad. The force would have been less - so I would therefore have flown less and not hit the ground as hard. Anyway, he was on the wrong side of the road! And he hit me and drove off! If that doesn't count as reckless or negligant behaviour then I don't know what does! > > I'd say that it's the few who do this that give the rest a bad name. > > No, it's few who *DON'T&* do this, and besides, you don't live where I > live - you couldn't know! In that case it's completely different in Britain. There are a few *really* stupid cyclists - but the majority are pretty damn good. People are encouraged to take a "Cycling Proficiency Test" early on in life so that they can be taught how to ride properly and safely - and if they pass the (practical) test, they get a certificate. I think the majority (or a lot) of people have taken this course, so we've got a fair few safe riders. Besides, where I live there are a lot of mountain bikers - about 5m away is the start of the Welsh mountains! > > Personally I believe that you should be required to have a licence to ride a > > bike on the road. That'd solve the problem. And more bike lanes too... > > I agree. And give shotguns to motorists for rude bicyclists. Whatever, there are still a hell of stupid drivers who should be forced to take their tests again. A quick example: how much room do you give a cyclist when you overtake him? The correct answer should be that you give him the *same* amount of space as if you were overtaking a car. The majority of drivers don't do this - and that makes life really difficult for a cyclist - especially in windy weather! I'm not a pro-cyclist and anti-car user. I use both. But cyclists are getting a lot of flak at the moment and it is only the few causing the problems. There are faaaaar more shit drivers than cyclists! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 23:31:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17789 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:31:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E98BE3.2E05C87D@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:29:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Those wacky Germans References: <0003645f17e2b795_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <00a601bf9dbb$8bf38220$0100a8c0@lion> <000364628f560d76_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Nor me. Hey, I'm not German. Whew! ;) > > Lucky you ;-) I'm English... oh. ;) > >Yeah. They just want to be able to write their names in the snow too. :)) > > If you drank so much to be able to write your name then you won't get the > spelling right ;-) True. But what if it was water? ;) > BTW, what I always wanted to ask you: > Don't all the Germans you know have severe problems to pronounce your last > name correctly? I bet it'll sound like "Griffisss" then. And my first name too. But yes, they have problems with it - but you can't really hear it. They have real problems to spell it, though. "Griffis" or "Griffis" is quite usual. And they can't spell my first name either. It's the first country I've been to where I have this problem! The good thing is that while "Griffiths" is quite a popular name in Britain, I don't know of a single other person with Griffiths. That's good. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 23:35:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17807 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:35:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:35:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <38E98ACB.EBEC388E@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Anyway, he was on the wrong side of the road! And he hit me and drove off! > If that doesn't count as reckless or negligant behaviour then I don't know > what does! That is reckless and negligent, but your original message said nothing but speed. I keep getting in this fight with a million people that just because you violate the speed limit by 5 or 10 miles an hour doesn't mean you're more accident prone or that it would really make a difference to drive 5-10 miles an hour slower! > > No, it's few who *DON'T&* do this, and besides, you don't live where I > > live - you couldn't know! > In that case it's completely different in Britain. There are a few *really* > stupid cyclists - but the majority are pretty damn good. People are Here they are arrogant, I-own-the-road, screw-you-you-motorist-pigs, Nazi bicyclists who consistently violate all the laws that motorists must (and they are required to follow as well) adhere to as well! > > > Personally I believe that you should be required to have a licence to ride a > > > bike on the road. That'd solve the problem. And more bike lanes too... > > I agree. And give shotguns to motorists for rude bicyclists. > Whatever, there are still a hell of stupid drivers who should be forced to > take their tests again. A quick example: how much room do you give a > cyclist when you overtake him? Oh agreed. But in downtown Portland where you can't go faster than 20MPH anyway due to so much bloody traffic, people and cyclists, you can't go fast enough to be stupid! > I'm not a pro-cyclist and anti-car user. I use both. But cyclists are > getting a lot of flak at the moment and it is only the few causing the > problems. There are faaaaar more shit drivers than cyclists! I use both as well, but the cyclists here are just assholes. They'll hold up traffic, run red lights, and in one case some asshole actually hit the back of my car because I stopped abruptly for a red light, and screamed at *ME* for stopping! Like whose fucking fault was that? His for not paying attention and following too close! Sorry, of the experiences as a cyclist and a motorist in Portland, the cyclists are the elitist pricks who deserve no respect at all. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 3 23:58:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17866 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:58:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E99141.688C4D5D@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:52:49 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Anyway, he was on the wrong side of the road! And he hit me and drove off! > > If that doesn't count as reckless or negligant behaviour then I don't know > > what does! > > That is reckless and negligent, but your original message said nothing but > speed. No, you're right. But it did say he was on my side of the road at the time. > I keep getting in this fight with a million people that just > because you violate the speed limit by 5 or 10 miles an hour doesn't mean > you're more accident prone or that it would really make a difference to > drive 5-10 miles an hour slower! No, but you've got to drive according to the conditions. If you can't see more than 20m in front of you then you have to drive slowly. Of course, if you've got clear vision for hundreds of metres, then drive ahead! But 50mph is 20 more than the 30mph limit - not to mention that it would be stupid to attempt to drive 30mph on this road anyway. If you drive on a housing estate (which is where this happened) you can't drive fast - you don't know what will be in the road. Small children, pets, me... ;) > > In that case it's completely different in Britain. There are a few *really* > > stupid cyclists - but the majority are pretty damn good. People are > > Here they are arrogant, I-own-the-road, screw-you-you-motorist-pigs, Nazi > bicyclists who consistently violate all the laws that motorists must (and > they are required to follow as well) adhere to as well! Really? Well the police can do you for doing that, so you have to behave fairly well. You still have to follow all the motorist laws and the highway code. I agree though, there are many people who don't. > > Whatever, there are still a hell of stupid drivers who should be forced to > > take their tests again. A quick example: how much room do you give a > > cyclist when you overtake him? > > Oh agreed. But in downtown Portland where you can't go faster than 20MPH > anyway due to so much bloody traffic, people and cyclists, you can't go > fast enough to be stupid! Heh. In that case it's a different situation altogether! :) > > I'm not a pro-cyclist and anti-car user. I use both. But cyclists are > > getting a lot of flak at the moment and it is only the few causing the > > problems. There are faaaaar more shit drivers than cyclists! > > I use both as well, but the cyclists here are just assholes. They'll hold > up traffic, run red lights, and in one case some asshole actually hit the > back of my car because I stopped abruptly for a red light, and screamed at > *ME* for stopping! Like whose fucking fault was that? His for not paying > attention and following too close! Yes, I can see why you hold that view. In this case it was definitely the cyclist at fault. I mean, you've got to give yourself decent stopping distance - it's stupid not to! > Sorry, of the experiences as a cyclist and a motorist in Portland, the > cyclists are the elitist pricks who deserve no respect at all. In that case, I'll agree - but the situation is certainly different back home. And here, for that matter. Cycle lanes all over the place! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 00:08:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17896 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 00:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E994A7.7BA7187D@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:07:19 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > >Hehehe, I think you are wrong, my spoken english is really worst :) > >If you heared Almodovar speaking then you know the tipical spanish > english. > > Billy Crystals commentary was: Against Pedro Roberto Bergnini sounds > like an English teacher... : ) Oh well, I didn´t understand him either but it´s the kind of english you can expect from a spanish who doesn´t really know how to speak english. If you hear someone talking like that you have found a spanish guy. Do you want to know what he couldn´t say of his speak? Something like US people should begin to learn spanish because they will be conquered by the people from South America. But in fact is true. I heared all candidates for president are learning spanish to get more votes. I think he forgot also Spanish people should begin to learn arabian or morocco language for the same reason. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 00:13:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17921 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 00:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E995D5.9804F0@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:12:21 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Buttonless Mouse from Microsoft References: <38E89F57.B94EA023@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > Hi, > > > >Looks like April fools to me. > > > > Yeah, sure. I actually wanted to send the mail on April 1st but that > > damn SMTP didn't let me. But it seems you figured it out anyway ;-) > > It was the "Oompah-Loompah" bit that gave it away to me. That and the > buttonless bit. :) > > > Has anyone found other April fools? This was the only one I stumbled > > across on the web. > I think someone send me one, perhaps not. The problem is that in Spain April Fools isn´t in april and we never remember it´s april fools :o A movie for a PSX RPG game from Square: "Parasite Eve: A female NYPD officer who must stop a genetically mutated and psychotic villainess from destroying not only New York City, but changing the rest of the world's population via sinister DNA manipulation. Rumoured Stars: Madonna" Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 00:22:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17936 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 00:22:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E99715.4BF3C683@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:17:41 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: <38E994A7.7BA7187D@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Oh well, I didn´t understand him either but it´s the kind of english you can > expect from a spanish who doesn´t really know how to speak english. If you > hear someone talking like that you have found a spanish guy. There's a Spanish guy here I'm friends with who has *really* good English. Mind you, he did live in England for 5 years. :) > I think he forgot also Spanish people should begin to learn arabian or morocco > language for the same reason. Oh, you're safe there. One of the guys I live with - his father is a Moroccon Ambassador. If I hear anything, I'll give you warning. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 00:31:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17962 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 00:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38E99A07.EA822BFE@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:30:15 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Star Wars References: <38E994A7.7BA7187D@est.fib.upc.es> <38E99715.4BF3C683@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I think he forgot also Spanish people should begin to learn arabian or morocco > > language for the same reason. > > Oh, you're safe there. One of the guys I live with - his father is a > Moroccon Ambassador. If I hear anything, I'll give you warning. ;) > : ) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 10:02:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19498 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:02:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004041705.TAA20089@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers In-Reply-To: <38E99A07.EA822BFE@est.fib.upc.es> from "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" at "Apr 4, 2000 09:30:15 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:05:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Perhaps someone it's interested to talk about this. This weekend a mad boy (17 years) killed all his family using a katana (samurai sword) somewhere in Spain. This is a sad notice, but this kind of things happens sometimes all over the world. Well. Now comes the bad news. It seems this boy was a Final Fantasy 8 player (I don't know how journalist discovered this, perhaps they invented). So now all media in Spain are talking about how violent, how dangerous and how mad are all people who plays this (perhaps all) kind of videogames. I'm really angry. This isn't the first time that videogames, or rol games (board games) are used in Spain to explain some murder. Perhaps they think all people who plays computer games or rol games are mad. I think something similar happened sometime ago with some US boys who began shoting in a their school and killed some students. The media said they were 'Doom'-like games players. So with the 'perfect' logic journalists use the game is guilty and all game players are dangerous. My parents are beginning to think I could become a psicokiller :( Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 10:26:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19575 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004041705.TAA20089@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036472d484c607_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004041705.TAA20089@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:28:04 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >This weekend a mad boy (17 years) killed all his family using a katana >(samurai sword) somewhere in Spain. This is a sad notice, but this kind of things >happens sometimes all over the world. Indeed. At least he shows some style by using a katana, ok bad joke... >Well. Now comes the bad news. It seems this boy was a Final Fantasy 8 >player (I don't know how journalist discovered this, perhaps they invented). So now >all media in Spain are talking about how violent, how dangerous and how mad are >all people who plays this (perhaps all) kind of videogames. How typical for the press. They always search for a reason and they either end up with action movies or action games instead of searching for the personal problems that must have caused this boy to go rampage. BTW, I think that most TV news are actually more brutal than any computer game I know! >I'm really angry. This isn't the first time that videogames, or rol games >(board games) are used in Spain to explain some murder. This has been done in the US and also in Germany before. The main difference is that in Germany most brutal games are illegal or you have to be at least 18 years old to get these. Or you are just fast enough to buy the game before it's forbidden and the "original German version" is released, as I did with Half-Life. >Perhaps they think >all people who plays computer games or rol games are mad. It's somewhat strange that they now even think that RPGs can make you mad! >I think something similar happened sometime ago with some US boys who began >shoting in a their school and killed some students. The media said they were >'Doom'-like games players. So with the 'perfect' logic journalists use the >game is guilty and all game players are dangerous. The journalists - especially yellow press - always search for the easiest solution even if it's totally wrong. If this was really the case then you wouldn't have a few mad guys but *thousands* of these! Actually I can even calm down again after having played an action game! >My parents are beginning to think I could become a psicokiller :( Then ask them if they believe everything what's mentioned in the press! -- M.I.Ke "Even the best of friends cannot attend each other's funeral." -- Kehlog Albran, "The Profit" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 10:32:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19617 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:32:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers In-Reply-To: <200004041705.TAA20089@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I'm really angry. This isn't the first time that videogames, or rol > games (board games) are used in Spain to explain some murder. > Perhaps they think all people who plays computer games or rol games > are mad. People who take the "extra step" and go off and kill people are predispositioned to go kill people anyway, and if it wasn't video games it'd be something else. This is a really lame excuse. I also remember the time a 4 year old kid set fire to his trailer (which killed his little sister) and his mother blamed it on an episode of Beavis & Butthead where Beavis said "Fire! Fire! Fire!". Later it was found that the kid had never seen nor heard of the show, so his mother was just trying to make an excuse. I've often felt that I have far more of a collective IQ than the media does. So often I'm irritated by the over generalization and conservatism found in the voice/writing of the journalists to the point I'll shut off the TV or put down the paper. When I see some low life dumbshit going on for pages about video game violence without naming one iota of redeeming qualities (I.E. hand/eye coordination, logical thought, planning, which are all proven qualities of video games), it makes me want to pick up a katana and go chop some heads. HEy! That's it! The journalists made me do it! Let's outlaw journalists! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 10:49:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19713 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:50:32 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >People who take the "extra step" and go off and kill people are >predispositioned to go kill people anyway, and if it wasn't video games >it'd be something else. This is a really lame excuse. Indeed. The games might be the last nail for the coffin but they're certainly not the reason! >I've often felt that I have far more of a collective IQ than the media >does. So often I'm irritated by the over generalization and conservatism >found in the voice/writing of the journalists to the point I'll shut off >the TV or put down the paper. Yeah, I once read an article about the Pentium (a few years ago of course) in a otherwise good news magazine (Der Spiegel), and they said that it was the fastest processor (nope, it surely was Alpha at that time and Alpha is still faster than a P3-1000MHz!) and that the first PC processor was the 286. We all know that the 286 was the first AT processor but the first PC-XT processor was the 8088! So much about good research... But even well know computer magazines talk about Athlon and Pentium III being the fastest processors as if they never heard of Alpha or PA-RISC, which leads to many readers thinking that there isn't anything else! :-( >When I see some low life dumbshit going on >for pages about video game violence without naming one iota of redeeming >qualities (I.E. hand/eye coordination, logical thought, planning, which >are all proven qualities of video games), it makes me want to pick up a >katana and go chop some heads. Hand me the wakisashi and I'll be with you! >HEy! That's it! The journalists made me do it! Let's outlaw journalists! Yes!!! -- M.I.Ke The light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming dragon. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 4 23:35:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA22236 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EADE38.BD72FDE6@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:33:28 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004041705.TAA20089@pons.ac.upc.es> <00036472d484c607_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > BTW, I think that most TV news are actually more brutal than any computer > game I know! > You are right. News about people killed in wars, people burned and so on. And these are real people dead! > > This has been done in the US and also in Germany before. The main difference > is that in Germany most brutal games are illegal or you have to be at least > 18 years old to get these. Or you are just fast enough to buy the game before > it's forbidden and the "original German version" is released, as I did with > Half-Life. > Here in Spain there isn´t actually any limitation. And knowing it is one of the countries with more videogames piracy it´s difficult to control them. > > It's somewhat strange that they now even think that RPGs can make you mad! > One or two years ago two boys (16-18 years) killed a man who was standing in a bus stop with a big knife. These boys were rol games (board games) players and the more crazy of them said that they were playing a kind of real rol game. So the media began a persecution against all rol players. > The journalists - especially yellow press - always search for the easiest > solution even if it's totally wrong. If this was really the case then you > wouldn't have a few mad guys but *thousands* of these! > Actually I can even calm down again after having played an action game! > And think about violence in some sports and sport fans aren´t prosecuted. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 00:24:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22322 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EAE8EE.AE7B7967@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:19:10 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I'm really angry. This isn't the first time that videogames, or rol > > games (board games) are used in Spain to explain some murder. > > Perhaps they think all people who plays computer games or rol games > > are mad. > > People who take the "extra step" and go off and kill people are > predispositioned to go kill people anyway, and if it wasn't video games > it'd be something else. This is a really lame excuse. Yes, I completely agree. The trouble with the media - and parents - is that when children do something like this, they have to have something to blame. And with both of them, it can never be themselves. I've played video games since I was 8 and I watched scary movies even then (although my parents never knew about it!). I can say that I have never actually killed someone in real life - nor have I thought "Ooh, this is a game" or "Ooh, I'm in a film!". You know? Am I the exception - or are they? If they are the exception, you've got to look at all the other people who aren't affected. There are millions worldwide who aren't affected by it. So you have to think "Hmm... maybe it's NOT games or films then". And then you've got to look elsewhere. The parents, the childs upbringing, his friends, his friends' parents. Anything and everything that could have made this person act like he did. Computer games and films are not the cause for violence in this world. Look at the wars we've seen in Africa (10 years ago, for instance). I somehow doubt that the majority of the people would have seen videos or played computer games. Look back in history - when we didn't have films and games. Violence there? Yes. Heard of "Jack the ripper?". He was a mass murderer in London many, many years ago. There weren't films or computer games then. What was the cause of that? Who knows, but what I do know is that if it had happened now, the media would blame films and computer games. Films and computer games model real life violence. Of course, they make it more gratuitous, but the fact is that it is modelled on real life. There is nothing more violent in this world than a human being. Violence - and peace - are part of human nature - and you'll always find people who are more inclined to either. Sometimes you just get people with severe problems who are just violent and do violent things for no particular reason. Maybe that's the case here? Who knows. What I do know is that I can almost certainly say that computer games and films are NOT the reason for this. One screwed up kid - yes. > I also remember the time a 4 year old kid set fire to his trailer (which > killed his little sister) and his mother blamed it on an episode of Beavis > & Butthead where Beavis said "Fire! Fire! Fire!". Later it was found that > the kid had never seen nor heard of the show, so his mother was just > trying to make an excuse. Children at that age are inquisitive - and will try and copy their parents. If a 4 year old has seen his parents light a match, he'll want to know how that happened - and he'll want to try it for himself. Fact of life. Okay, it's a shame he set fire to the trailer - but it could happen. You can't blame that on a *cartoon* for christs sake! My god, think how screwed up children would be if they watch "Tom & Jerry" for instance! > I've often felt that I have far more of a collective IQ than the media > does. So often I'm irritated by the over generalization and conservatism > found in the voice/writing of the journalists to the point I'll shut off > the TV or put down the paper. When I see some low life dumbshit going on > for pages about video game violence without naming one iota of redeeming > qualities (I.E. hand/eye coordination, logical thought, planning, which > are all proven qualities of video games), it makes me want to pick up a > katana and go chop some heads. Yes, I feel the same. And I hate any biased reports. I don't mind reports that come to a conclusion I disagree with - but if it's unbiased then I don't really mind. If it's biased, I'm likely to get angry about it. Reporters should NEVER be biased when making a report. Unfortunately, reporters who are unbiased are few and far between. > HEy! That's it! The journalists made me do it! Let's outlaw journalists! Hand me a katana, somebody! I'm going to get me some journalist butt! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 00:26:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22334 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:24:35 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Yeah, I once read an article about the Pentium (a few years ago of course) in > a otherwise good news magazine (Der Spiegel), and they said that it was the > fastest processor (nope, it surely was Alpha at that time and Alpha is still > faster than a P3-1000MHz!) and that the first PC processor was the 286. We > all know that the 286 was the first AT processor but the first PC-XT > processor was the 8088! If we want to get technical, the fastest processor even then wouldn't be an Alpha. Too many people forget that we don't just have micro-computers - we have mini-computers and mainframes. I'm thinking "Cray", to be honest. The processors used in that must be tremendous! > So much about good research... But even well know computer magazines talk > about Athlon and Pentium III being the fastest processors as if they never > heard of Alpha or PA-RISC, which leads to many readers thinking that there > isn't anything else! :-( Of course, you wouldn't normally have a Cray in your computer room, but still. There are alternatives - like the ones you mentioned - but I'll stay with the x86 series for now. Everything I normally use is for that platform, so I'm sticking with it. :) > >When I see some low life dumbshit going on > >for pages about video game violence without naming one iota of redeeming > >qualities (I.E. hand/eye coordination, logical thought, planning, which > >are all proven qualities of video games), it makes me want to pick up a > >katana and go chop some heads. > > Hand me the wakisashi and I'll be with you! Aaah. I used to Judo - and did it for 10 years, in fact. Anyway, I was talking to a German guy who works here who was telling me he's been doing Ji-jitsu - and when I told him I did Judo, he told me to go with him. So I went there last night for the first time and now I'm in pain. Aaah! My arms hurt! Must... stop... typing... :) As Mr. Mackey (South Park) might say: "Pain is bad, M'kay?". And if he said it, I'd agree. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 00:32:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22358 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:32:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EADE38.BD72FDE6@est.fib.upc.es> Message-Id: <0003647e951ff069_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004041705.TAA20089@pons.ac.upc.es> <00036472d484c607_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EADE38.BD72FDE6@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:29:20 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >You are right. News about people killed in wars, people burned and so on. >And these are real people dead! Indeed. In action movies I know that it's fake and in a computer game it certainly isn't real, but some news are really disgusting! >Here in Spain there isn´t actually any limitation. And knowing it is one of >the countries with more videogames piracy it´s difficult to control them. Even with control there is no real control. The ones who want to have the game either have it before it's forbidden or they find other ways to get the game. >One or two years ago two boys (16-18 years) killed a man who was standing in >a bus stop with a big knife. These boys were rol games (board games) players >and the more crazy of them said that they were playing a kind of real rol game. >So the media began a persecution against all rol players. I guess you mean LARP (Live Action Role-Playing). I prefer it the old style with dice and pencil. I even had some email discussion with the inventor of the second oldest role-playing game, Tunnels and Trolls. But have you ever heard that all people with a driving license are accused just because yet another accident has happend? >And think about violence in some sports and sport fans aren´t prosecuted. One German proverb says "Sport ist Mord": "Sports is murder", but that means a different aspect of sports... -- M.I.Ke Admiration, n.: Our polite recognition of another's resemblance to ourselves. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 00:51:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22396 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:51:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:50:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >If we want to get technical, the fastest processor even then wouldn't be an >Alpha. Too many people forget that we don't just have micro-computers - we >have mini-computers and mainframes. OK, I should have written microprocessor... >I'm thinking "Cray", to be honest. The >processors used in that must be tremendous! Cray aren't the fastest computers now. But don't ask me which is faster. Maybe it's a NEC? >Of course, you wouldn't normally have a Cray in your computer room, but >still. There are alternatives - like the ones you mentioned - but I'll stay >with the x86 series for now. Everything I normally use is for that >platform, so I'm sticking with it. :) It would be perfectly right if the say that Athlon and Pentium III are currently the fastest x86 compatible microprocessors, and not like they say/ write it which implies for about 90% of the readers that nothing else is faster... >Aaah. I used to Judo - and did it for 10 years, in fact. Really? Which belt do you have? >Anyway, I was >talking to a German guy who works here who was telling me he's been doing >Ji-jitsu - and when I told him I did Judo, he told me to go with him. So I >went there last night for the first time and now I'm in pain. Aaah! My arms >hurt! Must... stop... typing... :) Hehe. I could have told you that before ;-) I mean, Judo is a sports dicipline and Jiu-jitsu is a martial art, and one that is specialised to incapacitate your opponent. I have to admit that I'd prefer a mixture of Shaolin Chuan Fa and Ninjitsu ;- ) But this is also a good argument against these action movie theories: I have some knowledge about martial art styles and you shouldn't watch an action movie with me because I know most of the weapons. But I couldn't really use that knowledge to hurt someone because I never practiced martial arts and I never fired a weapon. I mean you really have to practice that several times before you can be as effective as some of these guys have been. And movies and video games don't provide the practice nor the weapons to do it. OK, a katana is a bit different, but if you don't know how to use it you probably only chop yourself... -- M.I.Ke The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only much, much heavier. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 01:11:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22466 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:11:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:11:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers In-Reply-To: <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > all know that the 286 was the first AT processor but the first PC-XT > > processor was the 8088! > If we want to get technical, the fastest processor even then wouldn't be an > Alpha. Too many people forget that we don't just have micro-computers - we > have mini-computers and mainframes. I'm thinking "Cray", to be honest. The > processors used in that must be tremendous! No... no... no... That would be the Intel Paragon. Crays are actually fairly slow by comparison. ;-) > Ji-jitsu - and when I told him I did Judo, he told me to go with him. So I > went there last night for the first time and now I'm in pain. Aaah! My arms > hurt! Must... stop... typing... :) Hm... Well, when he asked you to go with him, I was thinking it was more of a sexual thing. Just why again do your arms hurt so much? ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 01:20:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22485 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers In-Reply-To: <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 5, 2000 09:50:54 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:22:30 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hehe. I could have told you that before ;-) > I mean, Judo is a sports dicipline and Jiu-jitsu is a martial art, and one > that is specialised to incapacitate your opponent. > I have to admit that I'd prefer a mixture of Shaolin Chuan Fa and Ninjitsu ;- > ) > A martial art expert? As I like Japanese and oriental culture I'm also interested in this kind of things (and martial art movies are fun :). But my knowledge is very limited. > But this is also a good argument against these action movie theories: > I have some knowledge about martial art styles and you shouldn't watch an > action movie with me because I know most of the weapons. > But I couldn't really use that knowledge to hurt someone because I never > practiced martial arts and I never fired a weapon. I mean you really have to > practice that several times before you can be as effective as some of these > guys have been. And movies and video games don't provide the practice nor the > weapons to do it. Do you mean? I was playing last weekend Final Fantasy 8 and now I feel I could go to a street and begin to kill people with a gun blade (what a strange weapon) :) > OK, a katana is a bit different, but if you don't know how to use it you > probably only chop yourself... > More easyly than you can think :) If I have cut myself sometimes using a small kitchen knife I don't want to think what can happen to me with these large sharp swords :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 01:24:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22498 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EAF7C9.5E1A1684@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:22:33 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > If we want to get technical, the fastest processor even then wouldn't be an > > Alpha. Too many people forget that we don't just have micro-computers - we > > have mini-computers and mainframes. I'm thinking "Cray", to be honest. The > > processors used in that must be tremendous! > > No... no... no... That would be the Intel Paragon. Crays are actually > fairly slow by comparison. ;-) Okay, but it was the only mainframe I could think of at the time. Did I mention that I hurt at the moment? ;) > > Ji-jitsu - and when I told him I did Judo, he told me to go with him. So I > > went there last night for the first time and now I'm in pain. Aaah! My arms > > hurt! Must... stop... typing... :) > > Hm... Well, when he asked you to go with him, I was thinking it was more > of a sexual thing. Just why again do your arms hurt so much? ;-) Well, he had one of my arms behind my back and I had the other arm around his neck and... ohmygod! :o :)) Hey, my first night there and already a girl asked me to go with her for a drink next Tuesday. ;p Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 01:25:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22510 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:25:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:20:21 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >If we want to get technical, the fastest processor even then wouldn't be an > >Alpha. Too many people forget that we don't just have micro-computers - we > >have mini-computers and mainframes. > > OK, I should have written microprocessor... Not you - the *magazine* should have written it! > >I'm thinking "Cray", to be honest. The > >processors used in that must be tremendous! > > Cray aren't the fastest computers now. But don't ask me which is faster. > Maybe it's a NEC? No idea, I don't follow the mainframe market. The cost is a little out of my price range. :) > >Of course, you wouldn't normally have a Cray in your computer room, but > >still. There are alternatives - like the ones you mentioned - but I'll stay > >with the x86 series for now. Everything I normally use is for that > >platform, so I'm sticking with it. :) > > It would be perfectly right if the say that Athlon and Pentium III are > currently the fastest x86 compatible microprocessors, and not like they say/ > write it which implies for about 90% of the readers that nothing else is > faster... Yes, I agree. Still, I don't know what quality the journalists are for this magazine. My guess is not very high quality at all... > >Aaah. I used to Judo - and did it for 10 years, in fact. > > Really? Which belt do you have? Black belt, 2nd Dan. > >Anyway, I was > >talking to a German guy who works here who was telling me he's been doing > >Ji-jitsu - and when I told him I did Judo, he told me to go with him. So I > >went there last night for the first time and now I'm in pain. Aaah! My arms > >hurt! Must... stop... typing... :) > > Hehe. I could have told you that before ;-) I knew, but I don't remember hurting like this. Of course, that'll be because I did Judo for ages and got really flexible. But I haven't done anything now for almost 4 years and so I've lost it. Still, hope I pick it up again soon! > I mean, Judo is a sports dicipline and Jiu-jitsu is a martial art, and one > that is specialised to incapacitate your opponent. Yes, though not as specialised as JKD. > I have to admit that I'd prefer a mixture of Shaolin Chuan Fa and Ninjitsu ;- > ) They're not bad, but I'm glad you didn't say Karate. I have no respect for the followers of that - most people who do that are bullies because the discipline is less. > But this is also a good argument against these action movie theories: > I have some knowledge about martial art styles and you shouldn't watch an > action movie with me because I know most of the weapons. That's a gun. That's a knife. That's a really sharp and long knife. That's a sword... ;) > But I couldn't really use that knowledge to hurt someone because I never > practiced martial arts and I never fired a weapon. I mean you really have to > practice that several times before you can be as effective as some of these > guys have been. And movies and video games don't provide the practice nor the > weapons to do it. No, of course not. > OK, a katana is a bit different, but if you don't know how to use it you > probably only chop yourself... I can use a sword - but that's because I also used to fence. Not just Epee (no accent on these keyboards!), but Foil and Sabre (closest to the japanese style). Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 01:28:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22519 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:28:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:28:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers In-Reply-To: <38EAF7C9.5E1A1684@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Ji-jitsu - and when I told him I did Judo, he told me to go with him. So I > > > went there last night for the first time and now I'm in pain. Aaah! My arms > > > hurt! Must... stop... typing... :) > > Hm... Well, when he asked you to go with him, I was thinking it was more > > of a sexual thing. Just why again do your arms hurt so much? ;-) > Well, he had one of my arms behind my back and I had the other arm around > his neck and... ohmygod! :o And really quick like, you pulled his underwear up over his head, right? ;-) POWER WEDGIE! I think that would be a good idea to put in a video game of some sort. > Hey, my first night there and already a girl asked me to go with her for a > drink next Tuesday. ;p Cool! She wasn't one of the lee sisters, was she? (Ug and Home) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 01:34:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22544 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:34:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:29:05 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > A martial art expert? As I like Japanese and oriental culture I'm also > interested in this kind of things (and martial art movies are fun :). But my > knowledge is very limited. I, myself, am no martial arts expert. I'm good at what I do - Judo - but my knowledge only stretches to theory with other pracices (Kung-Fu, TKD etc)/ > Do you mean? I was playing last weekend Final Fantasy 8 and now I feel I could > go to a street and begin to kill people with a gun blade (what a strange weapon) > :) Don't, though. I mean, you've got to FIND the blade first - and when you've done that, you're going to set the media off again... ;) > > OK, a katana is a bit different, but if you don't know how to use it you > > probably only chop yourself... > > More easyly than you can think :) If I have cut myself sometimes using a small > kitchen knife I don't want to think what can happen to me with these large > sharp swords :) I can beat that - I've stabbed myself through the hand with a steak knife (one of the big ones). And no, I didn't do it on purpose. :) My friend can beat that as well - he got shot in the leg with a shotgun! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 01:42:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA22571 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:42:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EAFBEA.7FFC6A21@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:10 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Well, he had one of my arms behind my back and I had the other arm around > > his neck and... ohmygod! :o > > And really quick like, you pulled his underwear up over his head, right? > ;-) > > POWER WEDGIE! > > I think that would be a good idea to put in a video game of some sort. Heh! Yeah, that'd be cool. I can see the advert now: "Street Figher MCXXVI-and-a-bit: Coming soon to an arcade near you! With new features such as Tickle-a-thon(tm) and the much touted POWER WEDGIE mode!" :)) > > Hey, my first night there and already a girl asked me to go with her for a > > drink next Tuesday. ;p > > Cool! She wasn't one of the lee sisters, was she? (Ug and Home) I don't know who they are. But she wasn't ugly, so I'm guessing the answer is no. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 06:47:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23363 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:47:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EAF7C9.5E1A1684@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036483c4207733_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38EAF7C9.5E1A1684@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:40:24 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Okay, but it was the only mainframe I could think of at the time. Did I >mention that I hurt at the moment? ;) Not in the last few seconds ;-) >Hey, my first night there and already a girl asked me to go with her for a >drink next Tuesday. ;p How did you manage that? Maybe she just seeks for someone who cannot beat her ;-) -- M.I.Ke One is not superior merely because one sees the world as odious. -- Chateaubriand (1768-1848) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 06:47:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23376 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:47:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:34:35 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No idea, I don't follow the mainframe market. The cost is a little out of >my price range. :) You don't have at least a IBM S/390? Too bad! ;-) >Black belt, 2nd Dan. Not bad! I think there are 10 Dan grades in Judo, right? >I knew, but I don't remember hurting like this. Of course, that'll be >because I did Judo for ages and got really flexible. But I haven't done >anything now for almost 4 years and so I've lost it. Still, hope I pick it >up again soon! It was exactly the same when I didn't play badminton for some time, then I thought my right arm was falling off. >Yes, though not as specialised as JKD. I guess you mean Jete Kun Do (sp?) the style created by Bruce Lee. I think that is a mixture of Jiu-jitsu and Escrima... >They're not bad, but I'm glad you didn't say Karate. I have no respect for >the followers of that - most people who do that are bullies because the >discipline is less. Karate is too blunt without any elegance! >That's a gun. That's a knife. That's a really sharp and long knife. That's >a sword... ;) For old weapons I'd be more precise (dagger, gladius, broad sword, sabre, katana, ...) and I certainly can tell a ninjato from a katana. In action movies it goes like this: Oh no, not the Beretta M92F again, they're using it too much. Nice Desert Eagle. Is it .357, .44, or .50AE? Hey, wait how can he fire an Ingram MAC-10 single-handed? Caliber .45ACP and 30 round magazine that is emptied in just 1.5 seconds you simply cannot controll that! I think I'd get on your nerves ;-) >I can use a sword - but that's because I also used to fence. Not just Epee >(no accent on these keyboards!), but Foil and Sabre (closest to the >japanese style). Oh shit, here we have the next candidate... ;-) OK, sabre might be relatively close to a katana because of the curved, one edged blade, but I think the technique is still different. Although I have to admit that you will be able to do some damage with it. -- M.I.Ke If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. -- Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 06:47:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23381 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:47:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036483bf365cfd_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:39:01 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >A martial art expert? Nope, I have absolutely no practice. Like in most other topic I have only theoretical knowledge. >As I like Japanese and oriental culture I'm also >interested in this kind of things (and martial art movies are fun :). I adore Jackie Chan, that guy is great! >Do you mean? I was playing last weekend Final Fantasy 8 and now I feel I >could go to a street and begin to kill people with a gun blade (what a strange >weapon) :) Gun blade? Hey even I don't know that one! >More easyly than you can think :) If I have cut myself sometimes using a >small kitchen knife I don't want to think what can happen to me with these large >sharp swords :) Hehe. I got my hands cut several times when I was younger, but now I'm don't have much problems with knives. -- M.I.Ke I see a good deal of talk from Washington about lowering taxes. I hope they do get 'em lowered enough so people can afford to pay 'em. -- Will Rogers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 06:47:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23387 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:44:02 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I, myself, am no martial arts expert. I'm good at what I do - Judo - but my >knowledge only stretches to theory with other pracices (Kung-Fu, TKD etc)/ I think Kung-Fu isn't a style for itself but rather a group of styles similar to Budo. The fencing style is Wushu, which is what Ray Park, the guy who played Darth Maul, does. >I can beat that - I've stabbed myself through the hand with a steak knife >(one of the big ones). And no, I didn't do it on purpose. :) I did something similar with a pocket knife but I didn't stab through. >My friend can beat that as well - he got shot in the leg with a shotgun! :o Uh, that must hurt for sure! Did he loose his leg? -- M.I.Ke "I have to convince you, or at least snow you ..." -- Prof. Romas Aleliunas, CS 435 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 06:54:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23426 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EAFBEA.7FFC6A21@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036483dec5e6a7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38EAFBEA.7FFC6A21@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:47:51 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >"Street Figher MCXXVI-and-a-bit: Coming soon to an arcade near you! With >new features such as Tickle-a-thon(tm) and the much touted POWER WEDGIE >mode!" There is a German (table) RPG where you play teddy bears and similar stuff. In that game you're also able to learn a martial arts style called Whum-Uae witch lots of funny techniques ;-) -- M.I.Ke Help fight continental drift. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 07:18:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23481 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB4AA8.50492A67@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:16:08 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <00036483bf365cfd_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >As I like Japanese and oriental culture I'm also > >interested in this kind of things (and martial art movies are fun :). > > I adore Jackie Chan, that guy is great! I'm surprised he's still alive! AFAIK he's one of the only people alive to have broken every bone in his body! > >Do you mean? I was playing last weekend Final Fantasy 8 and now I feel I > >could go to a street and begin to kill people with a gun blade (what a > strange > >weapon) :) > > Gun blade? Hey even I don't know that one! That's probably because it's not real. It's from a game. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 07:18:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23490 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:14:03 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >No idea, I don't follow the mainframe market. The cost is a little out of > >my price range. :) > > You don't have at least a IBM S/390? Too bad! ;-) No. But I have got a Gameboy. ;) > >Black belt, 2nd Dan. > > Not bad! I think there are 10 Dan grades in Judo, right? I don't know how far it goes up, to be honest - I just know that some of the top guys in Britain are 13th Dan. Maybe 15 or 20? Whatever, I don't want to fight those guys! :o > >I knew, but I don't remember hurting like this. Of course, that'll be > >because I did Judo for ages and got really flexible. But I haven't done > >anything now for almost 4 years and so I've lost it. Still, hope I pick it > >up again soon! > > It was exactly the same when I didn't play badminton for some time, then I > thought my right arm was falling off. Heh. I played that again back at Uni. Played doubles - and I was jumping around all over the place. On the floor and everything. Hey, my side won! :) > >Yes, though not as specialised as JKD. > > I guess you mean Jete Kun Do (sp?) the style created by Bruce Lee. I think > that is a mixture of Jiu-jitsu and Escrima... Jae Kwon Do - and yes, I mean that. Not so much a martial art as a death sentence - it's designed to immobilize your opponent as quickly as possible. Scary stuff! > >They're not bad, but I'm glad you didn't say Karate. I have no respect for > >the followers of that - most people who do that are bullies because the > >discipline is less. > > Karate is too blunt without any elegance! Absolutely! > >That's a gun. That's a knife. That's a really sharp and long knife. That's > >a sword... ;) > > For old weapons I'd be more precise (dagger, gladius, broad sword, sabre, > katana, ...) and I certainly can tell a ninjato from a katana. Same here. > In action movies it goes like this: > Oh no, not the Beretta M92F again, they're using it too much. Nice Desert > Eagle. Is it .357, .44, or .50AE? > Hey, wait how can he fire an Ingram MAC-10 single-handed? Caliber .45ACP and > 30 round magazine that is emptied in just 1.5 seconds you simply cannot > controll that! > I think I'd get on your nerves ;-) Yes. I laugh at stupidly done stuff, but I don't know enough about weapons to do the same. :) > >I can use a sword - but that's because I also used to fence. Not just Epee > >(no accent on these keyboards!), but Foil and Sabre (closest to the > >japanese style). > > Oh shit, here we have the next candidate... ;-) ;) > OK, sabre might be relatively close to a katana because of the curved, one > edged blade, but I think the technique is still different. Although I have to > admit that you will be able to do some damage with it. The technique is certainly different - but it is the closest in styles to a Japanese style. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 07:24:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23524 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB4C07.A4C830EB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:21:59 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <38EAF7C9.5E1A1684@eurocopter.de> <00036483c4207733_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Okay, but it was the only mainframe I could think of at the time. Did I > >mention that I hurt at the moment? ;) > > Not in the last few seconds ;-) Oh, that's good. If that's the case, you won't mind me mentioning that I hurt. ;) > >Hey, my first night there and already a girl asked me to go with her for a > >drink next Tuesday. ;p > > How did you manage that? Good looks, charm and personality. Hell, I don't know! ;)) > Maybe she just seeks for someone who cannot beat her ;-) Yeah, maybe... Hey, hang on! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 07:34:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23556 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:28:32 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I think Kung-Fu isn't a style for itself but rather a group of styles similar > to Budo. The fencing style is Wushu, which is what Ray Park, the guy who > played Darth Maul, does. You're right - Kung-Fu isn't a style in itself but a practice. There are several styles that form Kung-Fu. Then again, the same could be said of most martial arts! > >I can beat that - I've stabbed myself through the hand with a steak knife > >(one of the big ones). And no, I didn't do it on purpose. :) > > I did something similar with a pocket knife but I didn't stab through. Well, I didn't really. The bone got in the way! :o > >My friend can beat that as well - he got shot in the leg with a shotgun! :o > > Uh, that must hurt for sure! Did he loose his leg? No, but he was lucky - it was only a few pellets that hit his knee. The funny thing (well, ironic) was that it was a soldier who did it. He was on an army camp as part of a high school thing and the soldier was - at that moment in time - talking about what could happen if the safety was off! However... the safety was off and when he fired it (expecting it not to fire), it did. Not good! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 07:39:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23596 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:39:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:40:10 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No. But I have got a Gameboy. ;) What a mainframe! >I don't know how far it goes up, to be honest - I just know that some of >the top guys in Britain are 13th Dan. Maybe 15 or 20? Whatever, I don't >want to fight those guys! :o That high? I thought there were only 10 Dan grades, or was than karate? >Heh. I played that again back at Uni. Played doubles - and I was jumping >around all over the place. On the floor and everything. Hey, my side won! >:) I'm too lazy to run around all the time so I'm a better double player. I'm one of the few player who do a long service even in doubles and it doesn't always work, but believe me as soon as two of these are not out and your opponents guessed wrong they will try to get any ball no matter how bad ;-) >Jae Kwon Do - and yes, I mean that. Not so much a martial art as a death >sentence - it's designed to immobilize your opponent as quickly as >possible. Scary stuff! I checked the spelling, it's Jeet Kune Do. And it's a mixture of Wing Chun (no, not the group), Escrima, and other styles. >> Karate is too blunt without any elegance! >Absolutely! Good that we agree on this one ;-) >Yes. I laugh at stupidly done stuff, but I don't know enough about weapons >to do the same. :) >From time to time they have weapons I don't know or cannot identify because you don't see them long enough, but most of the time they have the typical weapons. I certainly have nothing against the Beretta, it's a nice pistol, but why do they have to use it in almost any action movie. What about the P7 or Mark 23, these are cool pistols too! >The technique is certainly different - but it is the closest in styles to a >Japanese style. Unless you know how to handle a scramasax ;-) >> I adore Jackie Chan, that guy is great! >I'm surprised he's still alive! AFAIK he's one of the only people alive to >have broken every bone in his body! Yeah, I think he broke some bones even twice at least. >> Gun blade? Hey even I don't know that one! >That's probably because it's not real. It's from a game. :) I know, Victor mentioned that it's from FF8. -- M.I.Ke Monday, n.: In Christian countries, the day after the baseball game. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 07:48:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23621 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:48:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:49:16 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Oh, that's good. If that's the case, you won't mind me mentioning that I >hurt. ;) Haven't I heard that before? >Good looks, charm and personality. Let's check my chances: - good looks - no - charm - well, I have I good hand with dogs but girls are no dogs... - personality - yes, but nothing girls would be interested in. Hey, my chances are even higher than 0% ;-) >Hell, I don't know! ;)) Shit, I thought I can get hints from someone who knows what he does... >Yeah, maybe... Hey, hang on! ;) Good luck! ;-) >You're right - Kung-Fu isn't a style in itself but a practice. There are >several styles that form Kung-Fu. Then again, the same could be said of >most martial arts! True. >Well, I didn't really. The bone got in the way! :o What's that supposed to do in your hand? ;-) >No, but he was lucky - it was only a few pellets that hit his knee. The >funny thing (well, ironic) was that it was a soldier who did it. He was on >an army camp as part of a high school thing and the soldier was - at that >moment in time - talking about what could happen if the safety was off! >However... the safety was off and when he fired it (expecting it not to >fire), it did. Not good! Too bad! That's why the H&K P7 is so cool. The safety is in the grip, so it's absolutely safe as long as you don't really want to fire it. -- M.I.Ke Self Test for Paranoia: You know you have it when you can't think of anything that's your own fault. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 08:01:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23656 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:01:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:57:07 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >No. But I have got a Gameboy. ;) > > What a mainframe! I know. And it's one of the original ones too! Yeah, I run all my computers off it! I used to use it as a web server, but the batteries kept running out. ;) > >I don't know how far it goes up, to be honest - I just know that some of > >the top guys in Britain are 13th Dan. Maybe 15 or 20? Whatever, I don't > >want to fight those guys! :o > > That high? I thought there were only 10 Dan grades, or was than karate? Must be Karate. There's at least 2 guys in Britain at 13th Dan. One's written a book about it too... > >Heh. I played that again back at Uni. Played doubles - and I was jumping > >around all over the place. On the floor and everything. Hey, my side won! > >:) > > I'm too lazy to run around all the time so I'm a better double player. I'm > one of the few player who do a long service even in doubles and it doesn't > always work, but believe me as soon as two of these are not out and your > opponents guessed wrong they will try to get any ball no matter how bad ;-) I'm a better doubles player too. But I'm not scared of the floor, so I jump around for no good reason. :) > >Jae Kwon Do - and yes, I mean that. Not so much a martial art as a death > >sentence - it's designed to immobilize your opponent as quickly as > >possible. Scary stuff! > > I checked the spelling, it's Jeet Kune Do. And it's a mixture of Wing Chun > (no, not the group), Escrima, and other styles. Is it? I've seen it written as "Jae Kwon Do" before now. "Jeet Kune Do" sounds cooler though. :) And Wing Chun is, of course, a part of Kung Fu. > >> Karate is too blunt without any elegance! > >Absolutely! > > Good that we agree on this one ;-) Absolutely! ;) > I certainly have nothing against the Beretta, it's a nice pistol, but why do > they have to use it in almost any action movie. What about the P7 or Mark 23, > these are cool pistols too! Don't know. Maybe they actually have realistic models of the Beretta and they don't want to buy anything else? > >The technique is certainly different - but it is the closest in styles to a > >Japanese style. > > Unless you know how to handle a scramasax ;-) Well, I wouldn't go into a fight with a sabre anyway. In fact, if I could possibly help it, I wouldn't go into a fight at all - especially not one involving weapons! > >I'm surprised he's still alive! AFAIK he's one of the only people alive to > >have broken every bone in his body! > > Yeah, I think he broke some bones even twice at least. I can believe it. But hey, it's what you get for doing your own stunts all the time - and being in as many films as he has been in! > >> Gun blade? Hey even I don't know that one! > >That's probably because it's not real. It's from a game. :) > > I know, Victor mentioned that it's from FF8. Of course. I was just teasing you. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 08:19:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23683 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:16:04 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Oh, that's good. If that's the case, you won't mind me mentioning that I > >hurt. ;) > > Haven't I heard that before? Maybe, but it wouldn't have been from me. But by a strange coincedence, now you mention it, I do actually hurt. ;)) > >Good looks, charm and personality. > > Let's check my chances: > - good looks - no Well, I'm hardly... damn, can't think of anyone. Was going to write Leonardo DiCaprio, but I wouldn't even WANT to be him! > - charm - well, I have I good hand with dogs but girls are no dogs... Well, that depends on... no, I'm not going there. :) > - personality - yes, but nothing girls would be interested in. Depends on the girl. I've done the impossible: found girls interested in computers, games and... emulation! They _do_ exist! It's just... they have boyfriends. Damn! > Hey, my chances are even higher than 0% ;-) Your chances are never 0% so long as you don't look like a Labrador, smell like sewage and have the personality of a tree. And even then - maybe, just maybe... ;) I'd say whatever the situation is, your odds are better than winning the lottery. Why do I say this? Well, typically 3 people win the jackpot every Saturday. I'd say that a whole load more win in Real Life(tm) every day! > >Hell, I don't know! ;)) > > Shit, I thought I can get hints from someone who knows what he does... I don't know. I'm just as scared as you! ;) > >Yeah, maybe... Hey, hang on! ;) > > Good luck! ;-) Damnit! > >Well, I didn't really. The bone got in the way! :o > > What's that supposed to do in your hand? ;-) I don't know, but I've figured one if its uses is to stop knives going completely through hands. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 08:24:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23702 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:24:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364853bb8267e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:25:25 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I know. And it's one of the original ones too! Yeah, I run all my computers >off it! I used to use it as a web server, but the batteries kept running >out. ;) You have to stop using it as a power station for your hi-fi equipment and the microwave then the batteries hold much longer ;-) >Must be Karate. There's at least 2 guys in Britain at 13th Dan. One's >written a book about it too... I look it up in the Judo book I have and it says there are 10 Dan grades. But I guess the book is wrong then. >I'm a better doubles player too. But I'm not scared of the floor, so I jump >around for no good reason. :) Might distract the opponent ;-) >Is it? I've seen it written as "Jae Kwon Do" before now. "Jeet Kune Do" >sounds cooler though. :) Is it possible that you mixed it with Tae Kwon Do? OK, "do" is the way, "kwon" is the fist, "tae" is the jump/kick, but what would be "jae"? >And Wing Chun is, of course, a part of Kung Fu. Sure, and I was stupid to write that JKD had something to do with Jiu-jitsu since that belongs to Budo. >Don't know. Maybe they actually have realistic models of the Beretta and >they don't want to buy anything else? Yeah, maybe. Although the boss of the bad guys in Die Hard (played by Alan Rickman) has a P7. >Well, I wouldn't go into a fight with a sabre anyway. In fact, if I could >possibly help it, I wouldn't go into a fight at all - especially not one >involving weapons! Agreed! >I can believe it. But hey, it's what you get for doing your own stunts all >the time - and being in as many films as he has been in! Indeed! Have you seen the trailer for the movies the'll show in April on Pro 7? Mr Bean, Mission Impossible, Eraser, and First Strike. If you take Mr Bean out than it's a bit strange to combine that Jackie Chan film with the other two because all of his stunts are real and most of the stuff in the others is only computer graphics! >Of course. I was just teasing you. ;) You like teasing, don't you? I just have to find a way to tease you ;-) -- M.I.Ke A lack of leadership is no substitute for inaction. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 08:38:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23729 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:39:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Maybe, but it wouldn't have been from me. But by a strange coincedence, now >you mention it, I do actually hurt. ;)) Why, really? ;-) >Well, I'm hardly... damn, can't think of anyone. Was going to write >Leonardo DiCaprio, but I wouldn't even WANT to be him! I don't think that Leo looks that good... BTW, the good news is that he won't be in Episode 2 ;-) Well, I call myself an intellectual barbarian because I have to wear glasses (I'm blind as a mole and contact lenses don't agree with me) and I combine that with a full beard. >Well, that depends on... no, I'm not going there. :) No comment on that one. But I really have a good hand with dogs. When I went to the city today a small dog ran to the fence I just walked past and I noticed that it was beginning to bark. So simply let it sniff at my hand, stroked it a bit, and then went on. Well, it started to bark then but also waved its tail as if to say, hey that's not enough ;-) >Depends on the girl. I've done the impossible: found girls interested in >computers, games and... emulation! They _do_ exist! Really? Must be pretty rare! >It's just... they have boyfriends. Damn! We have a German proverb which could be translated like this: "Girls are like toilets, either shit or occupied." >Your chances are never 0% so long as you don't look like a Labrador, smell >like sewage and have the personality of a tree. And even then - maybe, just >maybe... ;) Well, you forgot in your evaluation that there are more men than women in the damn world... >I'd say whatever the situation is, your odds are better than winning the >lottery. Why do I say this? Well, typically 3 people win the jackpot every >Saturday. I'd say that a whole load more win in Real Life(tm) every day! What's Real Life? Can I buy that? Does it run on my computer? ;-) >I don't know. I'm just as scared as you! ;) As long as you don't let her notice that ;-) >I don't know, but I've figured one if its uses is to stop knives going >completely through hands. ;) Isn't evolution great? ;-) -- M.I.Ke I gave up Smoking, Drinking and Sex. It was the most * __________horrifying* 20 minutes of my life! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 08:53:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23788 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB6099.64A8AC7@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:49:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> <000364853bb8267e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > You have to stop using it as a power station for your hi-fi equipment and the > microwave then the batteries hold much longer ;-) But what about the rest of the street that use it for their main power source? > >Must be Karate. There's at least 2 guys in Britain at 13th Dan. One's > >written a book about it too... > > I look it up in the Judo book I have and it says there are 10 Dan grades. But > I guess the book is wrong then. I'd say so, yes. :) How old is the book, BTW? > >I'm a better doubles player too. But I'm not scared of the floor, so I jump > >around for no good reason. :) > > Might distract the opponent ;-) Well, I do attempt to hit the shuttlecock at the same time. But I suppose actually falling on the floor for no good reason serves its own purpose too. :) > >Is it? I've seen it written as "Jae Kwon Do" before now. "Jeet Kune Do" > >sounds cooler though. :) > > Is it possible that you mixed it with Tae Kwon Do? > OK, "do" is the way, "kwon" is the fist, "tae" is the jump/kick, but what > would be "jae"? I don't speak Chinese/Japanese (I'm not sure from which the phrase comes from). > >And Wing Chun is, of course, a part of Kung Fu. > > Sure, and I was stupid to write that JKD had something to do with Jiu-jitsu > since that belongs to Budo. No idea. I only know what I've been told about JKD. :) > >Don't know. Maybe they actually have realistic models of the Beretta and > >they don't want to buy anything else? > > Yeah, maybe. Although the boss of the bad guys in Die Hard (played by Alan > Rickman) has a P7. Really? And speaking of Alan Rickman, I think he's a really good actor and always makes a good "bad guy" in every film he's been in. :) > Indeed! Have you seen the trailer for the movies the'll show in April on Pro > 7? Mr Bean, Mission Impossible, Eraser, and First Strike. If you take Mr Bean > out than it's a bit strange to combine that Jackie Chan film with the other > two because all of his stunts are real and most of the stuff in the others is > only computer graphics! No. Hmm. I may watch them. :) > >Of course. I was just teasing you. ;) > > You like teasing, don't you? Yes, it's one of the downsides to being British. ;) > I just have to find a way to tease you ;-) I'm living in Germany. Isn't that enough? ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 09:17:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23872 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:17:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EB6099.64A8AC7@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036485f9d57b46_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> <000364853bb8267e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6099.64A8AC7@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:18:35 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >But what about the rest of the street that use it for their main power >source? Tell them to buy their own Gameboys ;-) >How old is the book, BTW? Have to check... 1978. >Well, I do attempt to hit the shuttlecock at the same time. But I suppose >actually falling on the floor for no good reason serves its own purpose >too. :) If you want to be a clown, yes ;-) >I don't speak Chinese/Japanese (I'm not sure from which the phrase comes >from). That's one thing I don't understand anyway: Tae Kwon Do is Korean, but the name seems to be Japanese... >Really? And speaking of Alan Rickman, I think he's a really good actor and >always makes a good "bad guy" in every film he's been in. :) He is a good actor indeed, and I think one of the reasons why the other two Die Hard films aren't that good is because they don't feature such a good bad guy. Not to mention Kevin Costner's Robin Hood... >Yes, it's one of the downsides to being British. ;) It seems so. >I'm living in Germany. Isn't that enough? ;)) No! Am I cruel today? ;-) -- M.I.Ke In 1914, the first crossword puzzle was printed in a newspaper. The creator received $4000 down ... and $3000 across. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 09:22:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23911 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:22:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:19:35 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Well, I'm hardly... damn, can't think of anyone. Was going to write > >Leonardo DiCaprio, but I wouldn't even WANT to be him! > > I don't think that Leo looks that good... Nor I - but several thousand girls do, so what does that mean? Well, it means that several thousand girls have no taste - but it means that they DO think he looks good. Strange people. :) > BTW, the good news is that he won't be in Episode 2 ;-) That is good news. I really do hate him with a passion people can only dream of. :) > Well, I call myself an intellectual barbarian because I have to wear glasses > (I'm blind as a mole and contact lenses don't agree with me) and I combine > that with a full beard. I also wear glasses, but I don't have a beard. Having blonde hair and a beard looks strange. Or, to be fair, it does on me. :) > >Well, that depends on... no, I'm not going there. :) > > No comment on that one. It's safer not to. :) > But I really have a good hand with dogs. When I went to the city today a > small dog ran to the fence I just walked past and I noticed that it was > beginning to bark. So simply let it sniff at my hand, stroked it a bit, and > then went on. Well, it started to bark then but also waved its tail as if to > say, hey that's not enough ;-) So long as it didn't think it'd found a new sexual partner: your hand. ;) > >Depends on the girl. I've done the impossible: found girls interested in > >computers, games and... emulation! They _do_ exist! > > Really? Must be pretty rare! It seems so. I've only found two so far. And I still don't understand why... Well, no, I think I do: advertising. > >It's just... they have boyfriends. Damn! > > We have a German proverb which could be translated like this: > "Girls are like toilets, either shit or occupied." I like that proverb and I'm going to introduce that into Britain when I go back in a couple of weeks. :) > >Your chances are never 0% so long as you don't look like a Labrador, smell > >like sewage and have the personality of a tree. And even then - maybe, just > >maybe... ;) > > Well, you forgot in your evaluation that there are more men than women in the > damn world... Not true. 52% women, 48% men. So some men could be really lucky (or unlucky when you really think about it)... > >I'd say whatever the situation is, your odds are better than winning the > >lottery. Why do I say this? Well, typically 3 people win the jackpot every > >Saturday. I'd say that a whole load more win in Real Life(tm) every day! > > What's Real Life? Can I buy that? Does it run on my computer? ;-) It should be in your local computer shop right now. ;) > >I don't know. I'm just as scared as you! ;) > > As long as you don't let her notice that ;-) Of course. I was shocked, that's all I can say! :o > >I don't know, but I've figured one if its uses is to stop knives going > >completely through hands. ;) > > Isn't evolution great? ;-) I know. Just think, we have bones in our hand just so that people like me, when being stupid, don't shove knives through their hands. ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 09:37:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23977 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EB6B5C.1AF0711E@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:35:40 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> <000364853bb8267e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6099.64A8AC7@eurocopter.de> <00036485f9d57b46_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >But what about the rest of the street that use it for their main power > >source? > > Tell them to buy their own Gameboys ;-) Okay, I'll do that. :) > >How old is the book, BTW? > > Have to check... 1978. That may explain it. Whatever, Judo is a new sport and the rules are still changing - even now. > >Well, I do attempt to hit the shuttlecock at the same time. But I suppose > >actually falling on the floor for no good reason serves its own purpose > >too. :) > > If you want to be a clown, yes ;-) You could scare the other team by running into the net too while screaming. That'd serve a purpose too. Of course, you could get locked up after doing both of these - but it'd be funny for a short while. :)) > >I don't speak Chinese/Japanese (I'm not sure from which the phrase comes > >from). > > That's one thing I don't understand anyway: Tae Kwon Do is Korean, but the > name seems to be Japanese... It does - from the little Japanese that I know. > >Really? And speaking of Alan Rickman, I think he's a really good actor and > >always makes a good "bad guy" in every film he's been in. :) > > He is a good actor indeed, and I think one of the reasons why the other two > Die Hard films aren't that good is because they don't feature such a good bad > guy. Not to mention Kevin Costner's Robin Hood... He was brilliant in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Which is more than could be said for Kevin Costner. Also - why has every Robin Hood ever (except one) been American and not even attempted an English accent? :o > >Yes, it's one of the downsides to being British. ;) > > It seems so. Sarcasm does appear to be a way of life, I'm afraid. And teasing. Especially teasing. > >I'm living in Germany. Isn't that enough? ;)) > > No! Am I cruel today? ;-) Yes, damn you! ;) To be fair, it took quite a lot of courage to come out here like I did. I knew little of Germany, I knew very little German - but I'm getting by now. I can hold a conversation in German now - so long as it doesn't last more than 10 seconds. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 10:24:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24180 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:24:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036486e6e38456_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 19:24:52 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Nor I - but several thousand girls do, so what does that mean? Well, it >means that several thousand girls have no taste - but it means that they DO >think he looks good. Strange people. :) Tell me about it... >> BTW, the good news is that he won't be in Episode 2 ;-) >That is good news. I really do hate him with a passion people can only >dream of. :) I hope it's really official, I read it on JediNet. >I also wear glasses, but I don't have a beard. Having blonde hair and a >beard looks strange. Or, to be fair, it does on me. :) Well, I have dark blond hair (almost brown) and my beard is brown. At first it was lazyness not to shave but then I noticed that I looked at least 2 or 3 years younger than I actually was after having shaved the beard off. Now I'm just used to it. >So long as it didn't think it'd found a new sexual partner: your hand. ;) You have a very dirty imagination! >It seems so. I've only found two so far. And I still don't understand >why... Well, no, I think I do: advertising. Advertising? How does this work? >I like that proverb and I'm going to introduce that into Britain when I go >back in a couple of weeks. :) Oh my, what have I done? ;-) Well, the strange thing that the statement is true in most cases! >Not true. 52% women, 48% men. So some men could be really lucky (or unlucky >when you really think about it)... Oops, have to take a look at the statistics again... But I thought that more boys than girls are born which is equalized by the fact that women can get older than men. >It should be in your local computer shop right now. ;) Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! I have to go there tomorrow! ;-) >Of course. I was shocked, that's all I can say! :o Is she German? >That may explain it. Whatever, Judo is a new sport and the rules are still >changing - even now. I think it was invented shortly after the second world war. >You could scare the other team by running into the net too while screaming. That's a great strategy! ;-) >He was brilliant in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Which is more than could >be said for Kevin Costner. Also - why has every Robin Hood ever (except >one) been American and not even attempted an English accent? :o Haven't noticed that because I always saw them dubbed. Hey, now that you mention it, why did Kevin Costner speak fluent German in the whole film? ;-) BTW, I guess the one exception you mentioned is the film with Sean Connery, although he doesn't have an English accent as well. >> No! Am I cruel today? ;-) >Yes, damn you! ;) You could have eaten some of my lunch today: Bratwürste, Sauerkraut, and Kartoffelbrei ;-) >To be fair, it took quite a lot of courage to come out here like I did. I >knew little of Germany, I knew very little German - but I'm getting by now. I think I had problems to go to - say - Italy and work there because my Italian is almost non-existent. >I can hold a conversation in German now - so long as it doesn't last more >than 10 seconds. ;) Ah, yes that's quite long. Well, I visited one of my friends today very briefly, and we ended up to have a discussion about 2 hours long... -- M.I.Ke "Apathy is not the problem, it's the solution" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 23:24:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00329 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:24:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:23:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com http://www.cnn.com/2000/TRAVEL/NEWS/04/05/airfrance.engl.ap/index.html Only the French are so arrogant to put their petty little false pride in front of people's safety. Should we talk about recompilers again? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 23:33:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00351 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC2F8A.B836257F@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:32:42 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Only the French are so arrogant to put their petty little false pride in > front of people's safety. I can't read this at the moment as I only have 1hr of Internet usage a day - between 12 and 1pm. And it's 8:33 at the moment. What's it about? > Should we talk about recompilers again? What, you want to get on topic now? ;) Yes, certainly. How about this for a topic: how can we optimise code produced by a dynamic recompiler - yet keep it fast? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 23:35:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00364 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:35:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC2F16.BF37DDDD@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:30:46 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> <00036486e6e38456_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >> BTW, the good news is that he won't be in Episode 2 ;-) > >That is good news. I really do hate him with a passion people can only > >dream of. :) > > I hope it's really official, I read it on JediNet. Is that an official or unofficial site? > >I also wear glasses, but I don't have a beard. Having blonde hair and a > >beard looks strange. Or, to be fair, it does on me. :) > > Well, I have dark blond hair (almost brown) and my beard is brown. > At first it was lazyness not to shave but then I noticed that I looked at > least 2 or 3 years younger than I actually was after having shaved the beard > off. Now I'm just used to it. But I have light blonde hair - and my beard, if I let it grow, doesn't grow in one colour. On either side of my chin hair grows in black. As I said, it makes me look strange. :) > >So long as it didn't think it'd found a new sexual partner: your hand. ;) > > You have a very dirty imagination! Okay, fair cop. But I know small dogs! ;) > >It seems so. I've only found two so far. And I still don't understand > >why... Well, no, I think I do: advertising. > > Advertising? How does this work? Advertising for computer games tends to be biased towards men all the time. There's not so many games I can think of that were advertised for both sexes - or a game advertised primarily for women (except for the "Barbie" games - which is for girls and not women anyway!). > >I like that proverb and I'm going to introduce that into Britain when I go > >back in a couple of weeks. :) > > Oh my, what have I done? ;-) Corrupting the English language! "Oh my god, they've killed the English Language!" "You bastards!"... :) > Well, the strange thing that the statement is true in most cases! It... seems so, yes. > >Not true. 52% women, 48% men. So some men could be really lucky (or unlucky > >when you really think about it)... > > Oops, have to take a look at the statistics again... > But I thought that more boys than girls are born which is equalized by the > fact that women can get older than men. No, I'm fairly sure that there are more women being born than men - certainly true in Britain. At the moment, they're blaming it on chemicals put in water (used to clean it) which seems to make people produce more oestrogen. I imagine it's the same across any developed country - we all use the same chemicals to clean the water! > >It should be in your local computer shop right now. ;) > > Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! I have to go there tomorrow! ;-) Shame about the price you have to pay, though... ;) > >Of course. I was shocked, that's all I can say! :o > > Is she German? Yes. So maybe that explains it. Girls do like people from different countries - but I am in Munich which has a high ratio of foreigners to Germans. Who knows? > >That may explain it. Whatever, Judo is a new sport and the rules are still > >changing - even now. > > I think it was invented shortly after the second world war. I don't actually know for sure, but that sounds about right. > >You could scare the other team by running into the net too while screaming. > > That's a great strategy! ;-) It's got to be worth a go. > >He was brilliant in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Which is more than could > >be said for Kevin Costner. Also - why has every Robin Hood ever (except > >one) been American and not even attempted an English accent? :o > > Haven't noticed that because I always saw them dubbed. Hey, now that you > mention it, why did Kevin Costner speak fluent German in the whole film? ;-) I'd say "He's talented", but I've been taught not to lie. ;) > BTW, I guess the one exception you mentioned is the film with Sean Connery, > although he doesn't have an English accent as well. No, in fact I was thinking of someone else. Who's name I've forgotten right now. Oops! Sean Connery is close, but still a Scottish accent... > >> No! Am I cruel today? ;-) > >Yes, damn you! ;) > > You could have eaten some of my lunch today: Bratwürste, Sauerkraut, and > Kartoffelbrei ;-) Sausage, strange cabbage stuff and potato... what? > >To be fair, it took quite a lot of courage to come out here like I did. I > >knew little of Germany, I knew very little German - but I'm getting by now. > > I think I had problems to go to - say - Italy and work there because my > Italian is almost non-existent. Somewhat like my German, then? No, to be fair, it's much improved now. > >I can hold a conversation in German now - so long as it doesn't last more > >than 10 seconds. ;) > > Ah, yes that's quite long. It's just about enough to tell them my name and what I do - then ask them about themselves. :) > Well, I visited one of my friends today very briefly, and we ended up to have > a discussion about 2 hours long... I can do that. On the phone too. Which is really bad when you're phoning Britain! Neil. PS How off-topic can two people get, eh? It's all your fault, Victor! ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 5 23:51:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00393 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:51:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC33D8.56BA9DB@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:51:04 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <00036483bf365cfd_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > > Gun blade? Hey even I don't know that one! > It´s a mix between a revolver and a large sword. Just search someone who has FF8 :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 00:08:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00435 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:08:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38EC2F8A.B836257F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Only the French are so arrogant to put their petty little false pride in > > front of people's safety. > I can't read this at the moment as I only have 1hr of Internet usage a day > - between 12 and 1pm. And it's 8:33 at the moment. What's it about? French air traffic controllers don't want to speak English even though every international airport in the world speaks it (and it has caused problems). > Yes, certainly. How about this for a topic: how can we optimise code > produced by a dynamic recompiler - yet keep it fast? Well, if you're optimizing code from a recompiler and it slows down, then, you're not quite optimizing it, are you? ;-) -->NEil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 00:11:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00455 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:11:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC3892.8641769B@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:11:14 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > > > BTW, the good news is that he won't be in Episode 2 ;-) > > That is good news. I really do hate him with a passion people can only > dream of. :) > There is a 'Di Caprio must die club' somewhere? :) I want to join. > > > Well, I call myself an intellectual barbarian because I have to wear glasses > > (I'm blind as a mole and contact lenses don't agree with me) and I combine > > that with a full beard. > > I also wear glasses, but I don't have a beard. Having blonde hair and a > beard looks strange. Or, to be fair, it does on me. :) > I think you waste too much time watching TV and computer monitors ;) But I also wear glasses, actually who doesn´t wear glasses this days? And I didn´t like contact lenses either. I usually use a five days beard (oh well, no beard, one day beard, two days beard, three days beard, I think I have to cut my beard but I really don´t want ..., four day beard, this beard is beginning to teasing me ..., five days beard, oh well, I surrender, I will cut my beard ; ) > > > But I really have a good hand with dogs. When I went to the city today a > > small dog ran to the fence I just walked past and I noticed that it was > > beginning to bark. So simply let it sniff at my hand, stroked it a bit, and > > then went on. Well, it started to bark then but also waved its tail as if to > > say, hey that's not enough ;-) > > So long as it didn't think it'd found a new sexual partner: your hand. ;) > Dogs ..., I don´t like them, they don´t like me ... I like cats, tigers, panthers, lions and wolves. > > > >Depends on the girl. I've done the impossible: found girls interested in > > >computers, games and... emulation! They _do_ exist! > > > > Really? Must be pretty rare! > > It seems so. I've only found two so far. And I still don't understand > why... Well, no, I think I do: advertising. > You have found two !!! > > >Your chances are never 0% so long as you don't look like a Labrador, smell > > >like sewage and have the personality of a tree. And even then - maybe, just > > >maybe... ;) > > > > Well, you forgot in your evaluation that there are more men than women in the > > damn world... > > Not true. 52% women, 48% men. So some men could be really lucky (or unlucky > when you really think about it)... > Not really. 54% young men 46%young women, and 48%old men and 52%old women. Women live more than men. And my chance are -50 % ; ). Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 00:14:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00465 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:14:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC394C.3660E8AD@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:14:20 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> <000364853bb8267e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6099.64A8AC7@eurocopter.de> <00036485f9d57b46_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6B5C.1AF0711E@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > > > >I don't speak Chinese/Japanese (I'm not sure from which the phrase comes > > >from). > > > > That's one thing I don't understand anyway: Tae Kwon Do is Korean, but the > > name seems to be Japanese... > > It does - from the little Japanese that I know. > You know Japanase? Anata no name wa nan to iu no? Watashi no namae wa Victor (Bikutoru) desu. :)) > > > >Really? And speaking of Alan Rickman, I think he's a really good actor and > > >always makes a good "bad guy" in every film he's been in. :) > > > > He is a good actor indeed, and I think one of the reasons why the other two > > Die Hard films aren't that good is because they don't feature such a good bad > > guy. Not to mention Kevin Costner's Robin Hood... > > He was brilliant in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Which is more than could > be said for Kevin Costner. Also - why has every Robin Hood ever (except > one) been American and not even attempted an English accent? :o > Yes he´s a good bad guy :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 00:47:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00599 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036492c046811b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:33:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Only the French are so arrogant to put their petty little false pride in >front of people's safety. Probably... >Should we talk about recompilers again? I already wanted to ask: "How about a dynarec topic, just for a change?" ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 00:47:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00603 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:47:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036492e906af8f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:44:27 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Yes, certainly. How about this for a topic: how can we optimise code >> produced by a dynamic recompiler - yet keep it fast? >Well, if you're optimizing code from a recompiler and it slows down, then, >you're not quite optimizing it, are you? ;-) I guess what he means is how to optimise code without slowing the translation process down too much. -- M.I.Ke "Now this is a totally brain damaged algorithm. Gag me with a smurfette." -- P. Buhr, Computer Science 354 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 00:47:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00615 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:47:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EC2F16.BF37DDDD@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036492e445edaa_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> <00036486e6e38456_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EC2F16.BF37DDDD@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:43:07 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Is that an official or unofficial site? It's a fan site, but one of the more official ones. >But I have light blonde hair - and my beard, if I let it grow, doesn't grow >in one colour. On either side of my chin hair grows in black. As I said, it >makes me look strange. :) I also know some guys who cannot grow a beard because the hair only grows in some parts of their face. I on the other hand have a pretty regular beard. >Okay, fair cop. But I know small dogs! ;) I prefer the larger ones too, but not what you think! >Advertising for computer games tends to be biased towards men all the time. >There's not so many games I can think of that were advertised for both >sexes - or a game advertised primarily for women (except for the "Barbie" >games - which is for girls and not women anyway!). So how does this advertising help you to find out which girl likes computers and emulators? >Corrupting the English language! "Oh my god, they've killed the English >Language!" "You bastards!"... :) Hehe. >No, I'm fairly sure that there are more women being born than men - >certainly true in Britain. At the moment, they're blaming it on chemicals >put in water (used to clean it) which seems to make people produce more >oestrogen. I imagine it's the same across any developed country - we all >use the same chemicals to clean the water! They all blame it on the stuff in the water... hmm, which brings us back to our subject ;-) >> Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! I have to go there tomorrow! ;-) >Shame about the price you have to pay, though... ;) Yes? What's the price? >Yes. So maybe that explains it. Girls do like people from different >countries - but I am in Munich which has a high ratio of foreigners to >Germans. Who knows? Yeah, Munich even has an English Garden ;-) >No, in fact I was thinking of someone else. Who's name I've forgotten right >now. Oops! Sean Connery is close, but still a Scottish accent... Ah, so was that Peter Bergin then? >Sausage, strange cabbage stuff and potato... what? Sausages, sauerkraut, and meshed potatos. >Somewhat like my German, then? No, to be fair, it's much improved now. Indeed? >It's just about enough to tell them my name and what I do - then ask them >about themselves. :) Yeah, very informative ;-) >I can do that. On the phone too. Which is really bad when you're phoning >Britain! Deutsche Telekom will be happy :-( >PS How off-topic can two people get, eh? It's all your fault, Victor! ;) What was the topic anyway? ;-) -- M.I.Ke "I'm prepared for all emergencies but totally unprepared for everyday life." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 00:48:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00625 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EC394C.3660E8AD@est.fib.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036492fb02be01_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> <000364853bb8267e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6099.64A8AC7@eurocopter.de> <00036485f9d57b46_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6B5C.1AF0711E@eurocopter.de> <38EC394C.3660E8AD@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:49:29 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >You know Japanase? Not really... Ohaio gosaimasu. >Anata no name wa nan to iu no? >Watashi no namae wa Victor (Bikutoru) desu. Some parts sound familiar, but I don't get what you're saying... -- M.I.Ke "She said, `I know you ... you cannot sing'. I said, `That's nothing, you should hear me play piano.'" -- Morrisey --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 00:48:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00629 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EC3892.8641769B@est.fib.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036492f63d8c76_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> <38EC3892.8641769B@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:48:09 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id AAA00622 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >There is a 'Di Caprio must die club' somewhere? :) I want to join. Me too, me too! Oh, is that on-topic again? Leo made me do it... ;-) >Dogs ..., I don´t like them, they don´t like me ... I like cats, tigers, >panthers, lions and wolves. I don't like cats that much, but if you like wolves (as do I) than you should also like some dogs. >Not really. 54% young men 46%young women, and 48%old men and 52%old women. >Women live more than men. >And my chance are -50 % ; ). Does that mean you spoilt all your chances? -- M.I.Ke Bumper sticker: "All the parts falling off this car are of the very finest British manufacture" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 01:06:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00686 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:06:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004060807.KAA24328@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers In-Reply-To: <00036492fb02be01_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 6, 2000 09:49:29 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:07:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >You know Japanase? > > Not really... > I only take a look to a 'Learn Japanese in 21 days' book. > Ohaio gosaimasu. > What this means? A salutation? > >Anata no name wa nan to iu no? > >Watashi no namae wa Victor (Bikutoru) desu. > > Some parts sound familiar, but I don't get what you're saying... > If I haven't missed something means: what's your name? My name is Victor (kinda japanese transcription). :)) I only know the phrase structure and two or three dozens of words. I want to learn more but I don't have time. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 01:06:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00698 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004060808.KAA13406@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <00036492e906af8f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 6, 2000 09:44:27 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:08:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >> Yes, certainly. How about this for a topic: how can we optimise code > >> produced by a dynamic recompiler - yet keep it fast? > >Well, if you're optimizing code from a recompiler and it slows down, then, > >you're not quite optimizing it, are you? ;-) > > I guess what he means is how to optimise code without slowing the translation > process down too much. > We are really on topic? I can't believe that :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 02:10:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01027 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC433D.8F1EA412@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:56:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I can't read this at the moment as I only have 1hr of Internet usage a day > > - between 12 and 1pm. And it's 8:33 at the moment. What's it about? > > French air traffic controllers don't want to speak English even though > every international airport in the world speaks it (and it has caused > problems). Really? Hmm, that's bad. Okay, they don't like English. I can accept that. However, there HAS to be one language for the world to use in airports - pilots aren't just from America and Britain, you know! But the pilots from other places still learn English because they have to all around the world. Hmm... > > Yes, certainly. How about this for a topic: how can we optimise code > > produced by a dynamic recompiler - yet keep it fast? > > Well, if you're optimizing code from a recompiler and it slows down, then, > you're not quite optimizing it, are you? ;-) No, that's right. But I was talking about keeping the *optimiser* fast - not the code! An easy optimisation is to use the registers as much as possible - but can we do such things as pipelining, yet keeping the optimiser fast? And other optimisations? How can we do them, yet keeping the optimiser fast? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 02:38:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01069 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC4270.5338D730@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:53:20 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> <38EC3892.8641769B@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > That is good news. I really do hate him with a passion people can only > > dream of. :) > > There is a 'Di Caprio must die club' somewhere? :) I want to join. If it doesn't exist, I want to start it. :) > > I also wear glasses, but I don't have a beard. Having blonde hair and a > > beard looks strange. Or, to be fair, it does on me. :) > > > > I think you waste too much time watching TV and computer monitors ;) But I also > wear glasses, actually who doesn´t wear glasses this days? And I didn´t like > contact lenses either. I usually use a five days beard (oh well, no beard, one day > beard, two days beard, three days beard, I think I have to cut my beard but I > really don´t want ..., four day beard, this beard is beginning to teasing me ..., > five days beard, oh well, I surrender, I will cut my beard ; ) Heh. I think that everybody wearing glasses is a plot by opticians to make money. Hmm... Hmm... :) > > So long as it didn't think it'd found a new sexual partner: your hand. ;) > > Dogs ..., I don´t like them, they don´t like me ... I like cats, tigers, panthers, > lions and wolves. How about huskies? They're very close to both wolf and dog families (of course, dogs come from wolves)... > > Not true. 52% women, 48% men. So some men could be really lucky (or unlucky > > when you really think about it)... > > Not really. 54% young men 46%young women, and 48%old men and 52%old women. Women > live more than men. No, I certainly read that the percentage of babies born into this world today is 52% women. Although whether the report was for Britain alone or the whole world, I don't know. > And my chance are -50 % ; ). What - of living? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 02:55:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01116 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:55:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004060958.LAA24548@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers In-Reply-To: <38EC4270.5338D730@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 6, 2000 09:53:20 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:58:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pons.ac.upc.es id LAA24548 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id CAA01113 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > That is good news. I really do hate him with a passion people can only > > > dream of. :) > > > > There is a 'Di Caprio must die club' somewhere? :) I want to join. > > If it doesn't exist, I want to start it. :) > Why don't change this mailing list into a 'we hate Di Caprio' list ;) What do you say NB? > > > So long as it didn't think it'd found a new sexual partner: your hand. ;) > > > > Dogs ..., I don´t like them, they don´t like me ... I like cats, tigers, panthers, > > lions and wolves. > > How about huskies? They're very close to both wolf and dog families (of > course, dogs come from wolves)... > Yes I like huskies too, and 'pastores alemanes', german ??? ... I can't remember how is called a man who takes cares of animals. I don't like pitbulls and other heavy mutated dogs races. > > > Not true. 52% women, 48% men. So some men could be really lucky (or unlucky > > > when you really think about it)... > > > > Not really. 54% young men 46%young women, and 48%old men and 52%old women. Women > > live more than men. > > No, I certainly read that the percentage of babies born into this world > today is 52% women. Although whether the report was for Britain alone or > the whole world, I don't know. > I haven't readed/heared this. I have heared that more male babies born because they have more chance to day before getting old... Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm sure I have heared this somewhere ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 05:57:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA01445 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 05:57:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC891A.9B5EE37F@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:54:50 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> <000364853bb8267e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6099.64A8AC7@eurocopter.de> <00036485f9d57b46_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6B5C.1AF0711E@eurocopter.de> <38EC394C.3660E8AD@est.fib.upc.es> <00036492fb02be01_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >You know Japanase? > > Not really... I know very little. I know how to write my name in Japanese - and in Chinese, though I don't know which dialect. Mandarin I think, but I'm not sure. > Ohaio gosaimasu. Fight! ;) > >Anata no name wa nan to iu no? > >Watashi no namae wa Victor (Bikutoru) desu. > > Some parts sound familiar, but I don't get what you're saying... What's your name? My name is Victor. You've just about covered the only phrases I know! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 05:57:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA01454 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 05:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC88AB.F809C413@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:52:59 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> <00036486e6e38456_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EC2F16.BF37DDDD@eurocopter.de> <00036492e445edaa_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Advertising for computer games tends to be biased towards men all the time. > >There's not so many games I can think of that were advertised for both > >sexes - or a game advertised primarily for women (except for the "Barbie" > >games - which is for girls and not women anyway!). > > So how does this advertising help you to find out which girl likes computers > and emulators? It doesn't: it's the reason why there are less girls who like computers and emulation. Well, it's the best reason I can think of... > >> Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! I have to go there tomorrow! ;-) > >Shame about the price you have to pay, though... ;) > > Yes? What's the price? You have to hand in your fake life. ;) > >Yes. So maybe that explains it. Girls do like people from different > >countries - but I am in Munich which has a high ratio of foreigners to > >Germans. Who knows? > > Yeah, Munich even has an English Garden ;-) Yep, with many beer gardens in there. Which is something that Neil may be interested in: I found out yesterday that there are over 300 "micro" breweries in Munich alone. And I have 7 months left to try and sample each type of beer. It's a mission and a half - but I'm up for it. :) > >No, in fact I was thinking of someone else. Who's name I've forgotten right > >now. Oops! Sean Connery is close, but still a Scottish accent... > > Ah, so was that Peter Bergin then? I think it probably was, yes. > >Sausage, strange cabbage stuff and potato... what? > > Sausages, sauerkraut, and meshed potatos. Sauerkraut = strange cabbage stuff. ;) Mashed potato... Ah, now I know what that's called. A British dish called "Bangers and Mash" is sausages with (and sometimes inside the) mashed potato... > >Somewhat like my German, then? No, to be fair, it's much improved now. > > Indeed? Well, yes. I could count up to 20 when I got here. I can do more than that now. :) > >It's just about enough to tell them my name and what I do - then ask them > >about themselves. :) > > Yeah, very informative ;-) Thanks. ;) > >I can do that. On the phone too. Which is really bad when you're phoning > >Britain! > > Deutsche Telekom will be happy :-( Don't use them. Use one of those strange call-by-call numbers... > >PS How off-topic can two people get, eh? It's all your fault, Victor! ;) > > What was the topic anyway? ;-) Game killers. Like how we're "mailing list killers" ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 05:59:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA01477 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 05:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EC89B3.B849D95F@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:57:23 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers References: <200004060958.LAA24548@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Why don't change this mailing list into a 'we hate Di Caprio' list ;) > What do you say NB? No - the less I think of him, the happier I'll feel. :) > > How about huskies? They're very close to both wolf and dog families (of > > course, dogs come from wolves)... > > > Yes I like huskies too, and 'pastores alemanes', german ??? ... I can't remember > how is called a man who takes cares of animals. I don't like pitbulls and other > heavy mutated dogs races. German Shepards, I'm guessing. Often used for police dogs. I also don't like pitbulls or anything like that... > > No, I certainly read that the percentage of babies born into this world > > today is 52% women. Although whether the report was for Britain alone or > > the whole world, I don't know. > > > I haven't readed/heared this. I have heared that more male babies born because > they have more chance to day before getting old... Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm > sure I have heared this somewhere ... I have heard that female babies are sometimes killed in China because male babies can grow up to be "more useful". If this is true, that's horrible. :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 06:04:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA01492 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004061307.PAA02342@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38EC433D.8F1EA412@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 6, 2000 09:56:45 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:07:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Yes, certainly. How about this for a topic: how can we optimise code > > > produced by a dynamic recompiler - yet keep it fast? > > > > Well, if you're optimizing code from a recompiler and it slows down, then, > > you're not quite optimizing it, are you? ;-) > > No, that's right. But I was talking about keeping the *optimiser* fast - > not the code! > > An easy optimisation is to use the registers as much as possible - but can > we do such things as pipelining, yet keeping the optimiser fast? And other > optimisations? How can we do them, yet keeping the optimiser fast? > It's difficult to say. For code which is executed a lot of times to use more optimization techniques is good, for code which is executed only once no optimizations it's the better chance. The more time a piece of code is used the more optimizations can be done keeping the whole emulator faster. What optimizations techniques can be used for dynamic recompilation? How says NB it depends upon your target emulator. I have found examples for all approach, no optimizations, register allocation and flag evaluation optimizations, and full block optimizations. Usually, for the arcade CPU's we want to emulate some register pre-allocation, flag evaluation and perhaps pipeling is useful and I think can be implemented without made the emulator slower than an interpreter (and if it's a C interpreter perhaps some more). In fact I believe the best solution for emulate 8-bit and 16-bit CPUs used in emulation escene is to use NB's method, because usually this machines need a very accurate timing. And using a per-instruction timing reduces the number of optimizations you can do are reduced. And I think it still manteins a better performance than some interpreters if it's well implemented. Perhaps when NB's Z80 Recompiler will be implemented some test could be done in this way. I think for 32 bits and new 64 bits CPUs (??) a per-block optimization approach would be more useful because they don't need a very accurate timing (or I think so) and the code generated must be the better posible. These CPUs need all power of actual processors (oh, well, with the GHz race we are seing lately in one or two years a PlayStation will be emulated in only two years :) so all optimizations are wellcome. With these CPUs some analysis of the code of each block is needed, use pipelining ever, supress all flag evaluation not needed, and perhaps use others optimizations from compilers theory. What usually will be never used are optimizations that require a large and slow tree analysis of dependences as some compilers use (or they should use). Although some implementations I know use these techniques (FX!32, Hot Spot) I think this isn't good for our emulation purposes. In any case. I think a lot of this is talk for just talking. The better and only way for know what optimizations can be implemented is to build a emulator and test it. Or in any case do some code translation tests watching speed of translation and speed of translated code. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 06:11:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA01515 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:11:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004061314.PAA26091@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers In-Reply-To: <38EC89B3.B849D95F@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 6, 2000 02:57:23 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:14:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Why don't change this mailing list into a 'we hate Di Caprio' list ;) > > What do you say NB? > > No - the less I think of him, the happier I'll feel. :) Yes, it's better not to think of him. :) > > I have heard that female babies are sometimes killed in China because male > babies can grow up to be "more useful". If this is true, that's horrible. > :-/ It's true and, yes, it is terrible. This kind of discrimination as males are useful for work, females are only useful for wifes is really awful, stone age discrimination. I don't like it. Better education is needed to avoid this. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 09:51:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02017 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004060807.KAA24328@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036499ba0aa888_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004060807.KAA24328@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:52:24 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I only take a look to a 'Learn Japanese in 21 days' book. Hehe. >> Ohaio gosaimasu. >What this means? A salutation? It's a greeting, but I don't know the exact translation. I think it's a bit more formal than "moshi-moshi", which simply means "hello". >If I haven't missed something means: >what's your name? >My name is Victor (kinda japanese transcription). Ah, could have guessed that. -- M.I.Ke 7:30, Channel 5: The Bionic Dog (Action/Adventure) The Bionic Dog drinks too much and kicks over the National Redwood Forest. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 09:51:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02026 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:51:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004060958.LAA24548@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036499e2b594dd_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004060958.LAA24548@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:03:46 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes I like huskies too, and 'pastores alemanes', german ??? ... I can't >remember how is called a man who takes cares of animals. The German name is "Deutscher Schaeferhund" and the English term is "German Shepard" as NG noted. I don't like these dogs that much because they are over -bred (I hope that term makes sense), they are sometimes agressive, and their hind legs are shorter which causes many problems with their backbones when they get older. I also like what is called "Irischer Wolfshund" in German. Is it "irish wolfhound"? These are nice big dogs and very peacful. >I don't like pitbulls and other heavy mutated dogs races. Me neither. And I don't like the dogs which have a similar size like rats. For me a dog has to look a bit similar to a wolf. If you're interested I could send you a photo of our family dog who died a few years ago... -- M.I.Ke Give thought to your reputation. Consider changing name and moving to a new town. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 09:51:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02035 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EC88AB.F809C413@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003649a8b434e8a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004050822.KAA27435@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EAF951.5BF2AD1F@eurocopter.de> <00036483d12ab51b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4D90.E76C2F56@eurocopter.de> <00036484ba71f980_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB58B4.C898E6B@eurocopter.de> <000364856c4e23f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6797.A9F44FB3@eurocopter.de> <00036486e6e38456_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EC2F16.BF37DDDD@eurocopter.de> <00036492e445edaa_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EC88AB.F809C413@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:50:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It doesn't: it's the reason why there are less girls who like computers and >emulation. Well, it's the best reason I can think of... Ah, now I understand. I thought you used some kind of advertisement to find out which girls like emulators. >You have to hand in your fake life. ;) That's too high a price to pay! >Yep, with many beer gardens in there. ;-) >Which is something that Neil may be interested in: I found out yesterday >that there are over 300 "micro" breweries in Munich alone. And I have 7 >months left to try and sample each type of beer. It's a mission and a half >- but I'm up for it. :) I hope this mail doesn't self-destruct in 5 seconds... >Sauerkraut = strange cabbage stuff. ;) You can use the right term, it's even in my English dictionary ;-) >Mashed potato... Oops, I got the spelling wrong... >Ah, now I know what that's called. Indeed, that's what we call Kartoffelbrei. Maybe you just have to buy a dictionary, it sometimes helps ;-) >Well, yes. I could count up to 20 when I got here. I can do more than that >now. :) So how was your first meeting at Eurocopter then? Q: "Wie ist Ihr Name?" A: "Eins." ;-) >Don't use them. Use one of those strange call-by-call numbers... Aha. >Game killers. Like how we're "mailing list killers" ;) Hehe ;-) -- M.I.Ke God did not create the world in seven days; he screwed around for six days and then pulled an all-nighter. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 09:51:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02044 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: New Topic: Game killers From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EC891A.9B5EE37F@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003649a8f4e8d19_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003647324dac08b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAEA33.220C7F5F@eurocopter.de> <0003647ee23f4a59_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EAF745.F96DBECF@eurocopter.de> <00036483af533359_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB4A2B.2D5C5A20@eurocopter.de> <0003648499e2a7c3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB5443.1E7C91E7@eurocopter.de> <000364853bb8267e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6099.64A8AC7@eurocopter.de> <00036485f9d57b46_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EB6B5C.1AF0711E@eurocopter.de> <38EC394C.3660E8AD@est.fib.upc.es> <00036492fb02be01_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EC891A.9B5EE37F@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:52:02 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I know very little. I know how to write my name in Japanese - and in >Chinese, though I don't know which dialect. Mandarin I think, but I'm not >sure. Zai jian ;-) >> Ohaio gosaimasu. >Fight! Hey, it doesn't mean "en garde" ;-) -- M.I.Ke Playing an unamplified electric guitar is like strumming on a picnic table. -- Dave Barry, "The Snake" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 10:54:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02255 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:54:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004061307.PAA02342@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <0003649b728bca82_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004061307.PAA02342@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:55:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >What optimizations techniques can be used for dynamic recompilation? How >says NB it depends upon your target emulator. I have found examples for all >approach, no optimizations, register allocation and flag evaluation >optimizations, and full block optimizations. No optimisation might be slower than an optimised interpreter and should be avoided if possible. I still think that register allocation can be very useful especially when both machines have many registers. According to Hennessy/Patterson good register allocation yields a better speed increase than any other single optimisation method. Flag evaluation reduction can help much, especially when the flags of the two systems aren't as similar as they are in Z80 and x86. Flag reduction will be done in the source layer since there are some processors (MIPS, Alpha, SuperH) which have no flags or only for some evaluations. I don't think that a full block optimisation will be that helpful. Also typical compiler techniques like common subexpression or strength reduction involve to much search to be of much help. But simple peephole optimisation could be done on a block. >Usually, for the arcade CPU's >we want to emulate some register pre-allocation, Since you know most of the code the machine will run NB's approach to have a static register allocation should work quite well, especially for all those 8 -bit CPU which don't have that much registers. >flag evaluation and perhaps >pipeling is useful and I think can be implemented without made the emulator >slower than an interpreter (and if it's a C interpreter perhaps some more). Flag evaluation reduction is almost obligatory for 8-bit processors because this is where the emulator will spend most of the time since the instructions shouldn't be too complicated. >In fact I believe the best solution for emulate 8-bit and 16-bit CPUs used in >emulation escene is to use NB's method, because usually this machines need a >very accurate timing. And using a per-instruction timing reduces the number >of optimizations you can do are reduced. For timing sensitive systems NB's approach is the best solution indeed, and it'll cost a Pentium less cycles to execute than we think by reading the generated code. Flag reduction can always be performed. Slight peephole optimisation should be possible too but then the emulator looses the ability to jump to any preferred instruction, so optimisations have to be carefully picked. >And I think it still manteins a better >performance than some interpreters if it's well implemented. Perhaps when >NB's Z80 Recompiler will be implemented some test could be done in this way. Yeah, it will be interesting to see how fast the Z80 dynarec is compared to MZ80. >I think for 32 bits and new 64 bits CPUs (??) a per-block optimization >approach >would be more useful because they don't need a very accurate timing (or I >think >so) and the code generated must be the better posible. That's what I think too. Especially with some register ladden systems a dynamic register allocation could be useful, which means that you have to work with small closed blocks. But these blocks can then be optimised as much as possible. >These CPUs need all >power of actual processors (oh, well, with the GHz race we are seing lately >in one or two years a PlayStation will be emulated in only two years :) Don't expect too much from these GHz CPUs. We need a faster bus first or otherwise it will be a severe bottleneck! > so all >optimizations are wellcome. With these CPUs some analysis of the code of >each >block is needed, use pipelining ever, supress all flag evaluation not needed, >and perhaps use others optimizations from compilers theory. I don't think that there are too many techniques from compiler theory that are useful for fast optimisation of code. I guess by pipelining you mean that the generated code is arranged in a way that fewer pipeline hazards occur and parallel execution is supported. If I understand NB's approach right then he'll handle this in the code emitter later. The advantage is that you don't have to care about the instruction order too much during translation and that the same code emitter can be used for any dynarec on the same target, so you only have to invent the instruction reordering once! >What usually will be never used are optimizations that require a large and >slow >tree analysis of dependences as some compilers use (or they should use). >Although some implementations I know use these techniques (FX!32, Hot Spot) I >think this isn't good for our emulation purposes. This is one of the reasons why many compiler optimisation methods aren't helpful to us, they are created to operate on semantic trees. But we don't have such a tree since we don't translate a high-level language. IMO it would be a too time consuming process to convert the sequential code into a semantic tree just to use some compiler optimisations and generate sequential code again. >In any case. I think a lot of this is talk for just talking. The better and >only way for know what optimizations can be implemented is to build a >emulator >and test it. Or in any case do some code translation tests watching speed of >translation and speed of translated code. Too true... -- M.I.Ke Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. -- Henry David Thoreau --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 23:38:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA04331 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:38:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <00036492e906af8f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >> produced by a dynamic recompiler - yet keep it fast? > >Well, if you're optimizing code from a recompiler and it slows down, then, > >you're not quite optimizing it, are you? ;-) > I guess what he means is how to optimise code without slowing the translation > process down too much. But that would be OK, wouldn't it? It'd only have to be done once, right? I don't see that doing the optimization step would really be all that time consuming. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 6 23:40:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA04351 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:40:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:40:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38EC433D.8F1EA412@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Well, if you're optimizing code from a recompiler and it slows down, then, > > you're not quite optimizing it, are you? ;-) > No, that's right. But I was talking about keeping the *optimiser* fast - > not the code! Aha! > An easy optimisation is to use the registers as much as possible - but can > we do such things as pipelining, yet keeping the optimiser fast Why not? Pipelining would be a bunch of table lookups and reorderings. > And other > optimisations? How can we do them, yet keeping the optimiser fast? You optimize on a per-block basis. We're not talkinga bout a lot of code, here. I really don't see that the recompilation process would take inordinate amounts of time doing the optimization. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 00:27:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04477 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:27:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004070730.JAA14765@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <0003649b728bca82_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 6, 2000 07:55:34 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:30:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > No optimisation might be slower than an optimised interpreter and should be > avoided if possible. A recompiler without optimisation can be faster than an optimised interpreter because you are decoding only once each instruction and you avoid the code for fetching next instruction in each instruction. Only with this and making a fast translation you will be always faster than and interpreter. And I'm talking about in assembler made interpreter, so you can think about a C interpreter. Translated code will be ever faster than interpreter code. > I still think that register allocation can be very useful especially when > both machines have many registers. According to Hennessy/Patterson good > register allocation yields a better speed increase than any other single > optimisation method. You are true, but now we are only emulating for PC so register allocation can hurt more than help. > I don't think that a full block optimisation will be that helpful. Also > typical compiler techniques like common subexpression or strength reduction > involve to much search to be of much help. But simple peephole optimisation > could be done on a block. > I agree peephole could be done. But I'm not sure about others optimizations, it depends upon your final objective. > > For timing sensitive systems NB's approach is the best solution indeed, and > it'll cost a Pentium less cycles to execute than we think by reading the > generated code. Flag reduction can always be performed. > Slight peephole optimisation should be possible too but then the emulator > looses the ability to jump to any preferred instruction, so optimisations > have to be carefully picked. > And timing accuracy also it's affected a bit. > Don't expect too much from these GHz CPUs. We need a faster bus first or > otherwise it will be a severe bottleneck! > Hehe, you are right. Intel uses now a 133 Mhz bus and AMD a 200 Mhz bus, I think. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 01:53:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04741 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EDA19C.B68ED88A@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 10:51:40 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > An easy optimisation is to use the registers as much as possible - but can > > we do such things as pipelining, yet keeping the optimiser fast > > Why not? Pipelining would be a bunch of table lookups and reorderings. That's true. But I'm thinking about a faster CPU than a Z80 - the TMS38310 (not sure about the numbers) or the 68K. But then... hmm, when I think about it, no. We can still do optimisation on these and still stay fast. Okay. So, what optimisation methods can we use? - Register allocation - Pipelining - Peephole optimisation Anything else? > > And other > > optimisations? How can we do them, yet keeping the optimiser fast? > > You optimize on a per-block basis. We're not talkinga bout a lot of code, > here. I really don't see that the recompilation process would take > inordinate amounts of time doing the optimization. Yes, I now agree. When I think about it, the main difference between the 68K and Z80 is the speed (yes, yes - one is 16-bit and the other 8-bit). One runs at around 4MHz, the other at about 7MHz. Yes, the speed shouldn't be too much of an issue. So, what's the most advanced/fastest CPU used in arcade machines that we could possibly emulate now? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 02:05:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04881 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:05:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004070908.LAA03994@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38EDA19C.B68ED88A@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 7, 2000 10:51:40 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:08:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > That's true. But I'm thinking about a faster CPU than a Z80 - the TMS38310 > (not sure about the numbers) or the 68K. But then... hmm, when I think > about it, no. We can still do optimisation on these and still stay fast. > Okay. So, what optimisation methods can we use? > > - Register allocation > - Pipelining > - Peephole optimisation > > Anything else? > Flag evaluation suppression. And then there are all these compiler theory optimizations. > > > And other > > > optimisations? How can we do them, yet keeping the optimiser fast? > > > > You optimize on a per-block basis. We're not talkinga bout a lot of code, > > here. I really don't see that the recompilation process would take > > inordinate amounts of time doing the optimization. > > Yes, I now agree. When I think about it, the main difference between the > 68K and Z80 is the speed (yes, yes - one is 16-bit and the other 8-bit). And the number and complexity of instruction. A Z80 it's easy to emulate, a M68k has a lot of more work in my thoughts. > One runs at around 4MHz, the other at about 7MHz. Yes, the speed shouldn't > be too much of an issue. So, what's the most advanced/fastest CPU used in > arcade machines that we could possibly emulate now? Also runs at 12Mhz on some machines. I think the CPU used in these TAITO and CAPCOM machines emulated on Impact Emu :). Any 32 bit RISC CPU will fit this characteristics. I don't know what are the modern arcade machines. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 02:20:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04960 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EDA728.7FC488FD@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:15:20 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004070908.LAA03994@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Anything else? > > > Flag evaluation suppression. Yes, that's an idea. > And then there are all these compiler theory optimizations. Not sure how applicable they are... > > Yes, I now agree. When I think about it, the main difference between the > > 68K and Z80 is the speed (yes, yes - one is 16-bit and the other 8-bit). > And the number and complexity of instruction. A Z80 it's easy to emulate, a > M68k has a lot of more work in my thoughts. Of course there are more instructions (though looking at the book in front of me I don't think it's by much). But the complexity issue I'll agree with. > > One runs at around 4MHz, the other at about 7MHz. Yes, the speed shouldn't > > be too much of an issue. So, what's the most advanced/fastest CPU used in > > arcade machines that we could possibly emulate now? > Also runs at 12Mhz on some machines. I think the CPU used in these TAITO and > CAPCOM machines emulated on Impact Emu :). Any 32 bit RISC CPU will fit this > characteristics. I don't know what are the modern arcade machines. That was just one example. Some Z80s run at ~24MHz. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 02:30:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04975 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004070933.LAA20047@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38EDA728.7FC488FD@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 7, 2000 11:15:20 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:33:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > And then there are all these compiler theory optimizations. > > Not sure how applicable they are... > Either I am :/ > Of course there are more instructions (though looking at the book in front > of me I don't think it's by much). But the complexity issue I'll agree > with. > Oh, perhaps not so many new instructions types but a lot of more variations for each instruction type, you know all this addressing modes :). I think I know well Z80 and M68K (they are the only I know) because I have studied a lot of times how emulate them and I have readed books and I have their ISAs at home ... No offense, but what is happening with SI emulator? Do you need some help? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 02:48:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05011 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EDAE0F.42B7DBFE@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:44:47 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004070933.LAA20047@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Not sure how applicable they are... > > > Either I am :/ Hmm. I'd guess at it not being possible, but the only way to prove me wrong is to try it. :) > Oh, perhaps not so many new instructions types but a lot of more variations for > each instruction type, you know all this addressing modes :). Well, I do for the Z80. :) I'm learning about the 68K at the moment. Because we use them here at work there's loads of documentation. I may just... 'liberate' some and take them home. :) > I think I know well Z80 and M68K (they are the only I know) because I have > studied a lot of times how emulate them and I have readed books and I have their > ISAs at home ... I'm currently doing this. > No offense, but what is happening with SI emulator? Do you need some help? Hmm. I really want to do the SI emulator to help newbies. But I've also committed myself to working on a new emulator which involves writing a dynamic compilation (NOT recompilation - although I think they could be freely adapted) core for the 68K - amongst other CPUs. I'd like to do both, but my interests lie more in the direction of the 68K one - because of the compilation issue. Besides, I've emulated one 8-bit machine (the Spectrum) and I want something that is actually going to challenge my programming skills. Besides, if everything works out well, I'll end up doing 3D programming as well which *really* interests me - this is the area of work I want to end up in. So, basically, I'd suggest that someone else commands this project. Although I can help and overview, I can't do both. At least - I *could* do both, but it'd mean having no life (and not meeting my mission of getting to every beer garden in Munich!). So... I'm not going to do the SI tutorial project thing. Besides, it annoyed me when I got hardly any replies - yet so many people keep asking about where they can find stuff about writing an emulator. You know, when I actually committed myself to it, no-one replied. I was annoyed about that to be honest. :) Add that to the fact that I'm getting my home-cinema setup completed tomorrow, I can see time just disappearing. :) Would anyone here be interested in taking control of the SI tutorial project? When I get an answer, I'll let the mul8 list know. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 04:26:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA05165 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EDC584.672DD1F8@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:24:52 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004070933.LAA20047@pons.ac.upc.es> <38EDAE0F.42B7DBFE@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > Hi, > > > > Not sure how applicable they are... > > > > > Either I am :/ > > Hmm. I'd guess at it not being possible, but the only way to prove me wrong > is to try it. :) > Yes, but who has the time :( > > No offense, but what is happening with SI emulator? Do you need some help? > Would anyone here be interested in taking control of the SI tutorial > project? When I get an answer, I'll let the mul8 list know. :) > I haven´t either so much free time. I haven´t write a single line for my documentation project in a month! But I think a step-by-step emulator can be useful for teaching emulation techniques. I think I could help some, but take control ... I don´t know, now I want first finish (someday) a first simple version of the dynarec doc. Perhaps for this project it´s need more people, perhaps a team ... But then it will be more difficult to coordinate ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 06:04:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA05420 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:04:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004070730.JAA14765@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000364ab62ec30f0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004070730.JAA14765@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:56:31 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >A recompiler without optimisation can be faster than an optimised interpreter >because you are decoding only once each instruction and you avoid the code >for fetching next instruction in each instruction. Only with this and making >a fast translation you will be always faster than and interpreter. And I'm >talking about in assembler made interpreter, so you can think about a C >interpreter. Translated code will be ever faster than interpreter code. Paul Clifford had an experimental dynarec versionof his PCEngine emulator for RISC OS. It wasn't optimising and therefore slower than the interpreter written in ARM assembly, so he told me. >You are true, but now we are only emulating for PC so register allocation can >hurt more than help. That's why I wrote that both systems should have a relatively large number of registers. On IA-32 a dynamic register allocator would end up constantly swapping registers. >> Slight peephole optimisation should be possible too but then the emulator >> looses the ability to jump to any preferred instruction, so optimisations >> have to be carefully picked. >And timing accuracy also it's affected a bit. Indeed, that's why NB's current approach is the best solution for timing sensitive systems. >Hehe, you are right. Intel uses now a 133 Mhz bus and AMD a 200 Mhz bus, I >think. The Athlon can use a 200MHz bus, but there are no PC-200 DIMMs so I guess it uses a 133MHz bus as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong... -- M.I.Ke An Englishman never enjoys himself, except for a noble purpose. -- A. P. Herbert --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 06:04:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA05429 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EDA19C.B68ED88A@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364ab80442c07_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38EDA19C.B68ED88A@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:04:44 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Okay. So, what optimisation methods can we use? >- Register allocation >- Pipelining >- Peephole optimisation >Anything else? As Victor noted there is also flag evaluation supression. It's also interesting to consider which optimisations can be performed when: * Source Layer Mainly flag evaluation supression can be utilized here, maybe even some peephole optimisation. * Target Layer Peephole optimisation should form the largest part here, optionally combined with register allocation. * Code Emitter All code reordering should be done here. The main reason for identifying the right layers for each optimisation method is to reduce the need of having to program that optimisation anew when the dynarec is ported to another system or a new dynarec is added to the same host. -- M.I.Ke "Calling J-Man Kink. Calling J-Man Kink. Hash missile sighted, target Los Angeles. Disregard personal feelings about city and intercept." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 08:34:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA05770 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38EDF11A.B430DDBD@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:30:51 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004070730.JAA14765@pons.ac.upc.es> <000364ab62ec30f0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, Off-topic, just for a change, but I've just thought of something. Mike, your last name. Isn't that written, in German, as "König"? If so, doesn't that mean that your name, in English, is "Michael King"? You don't know anyone called "Stephan", do you? ;) > > Translated code will be ever faster than interpreter code. > > Paul Clifford had an experimental dynarec versionof his PCEngine emulator for > RISC OS. It wasn't optimising and therefore slower than the interpreter > written in ARM assembly, so he told me. The good thing about ARM assembly is the amount of registers. I'm quite used to working with a poor amount of registers, but there are times where I can increase the speed of my code quite a lot with just 2 or 3 extra registers! So having... 32 registers available would be really nice for me. :) Intel/AMD - are you listening? :) > That's why I wrote that both systems should have a relatively large number of > registers. On IA-32 a dynamic register allocator would end up constantly > swapping registers. Relatively: you could really do with double the amount of registers as the CPU you're emulating. That would give you a remarkable speed boost and just generally be nice. Of course, if the CPU you're emulating only has 4 registers, having triple or quadruple the amount of registers would be nice. To just have 16 free for my own use would be great! > >Hehe, you are right. Intel uses now a 133 Mhz bus and AMD a 200 Mhz bus, I > >think. > > The Athlon can use a 200MHz bus, but there are no PC-200 DIMMs so I guess it > uses a 133MHz bus as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong... I'm thinking that PC-100 is half of the bus speed. So everything works at 200MHz except for the memory bus. But that's just a guess, I can't check it at the moment. :) Whatever, half speed cache sucks. I know why AMD had to take their cache down to half speed when they hit the 800MHz zone, but still... why do you think the Celeron A series did so well? Yes, they were overclockable - but so was the original Celerons. And they had no cache memory worth speaking of. > An Englishman never enjoys himself, except for a noble purpose. > -- A. P. Herbert I'll agree with this one. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 7 08:50:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA05817 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38EDF11A.B430DDBD@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364add6019ed4_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004070730.JAA14765@pons.ac.upc.es> <000364ab62ec30f0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38EDF11A.B430DDBD@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:51:52 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Off-topic, just for a change, but I've just thought of something. Mike, >your last name. Isn't that written, in German, as "König"? If so, doesn't >that mean that your name, in English, is "Michael King"? Your German is getting better indeed, since my last name "König" means "king" in English, but I prefer to translate the full name as "King Michael" ;-) >You don't know anyone called "Stephan", do you? ;) I know several Stephans, but no-one called Stephan König... >The good thing about ARM assembly is the amount of registers. I'm quite >used to working with a poor amount of registers, but there are times where >I can increase the speed of my code quite a lot with just 2 or 3 extra >registers! So having... 32 registers available would be really nice for me. >:) Well, the ARM has only 16 registers and R15 is occipied by the PC and is used as LR, but otherwise it's quite nice. >Intel/AMD - are you listening? :) Only if they provide the NSA with their equipment ;-) >Relatively: you could really do with double the amount of registers as the >CPU you're emulating. That would give you a remarkable speed boost and just >generally be nice. Of course, if the CPU you're emulating only has 4 >registers, having triple or quadruple the amount of registers would be >nice. To just have 16 free for my own use would be great! Yeah, emulation on IA-64 might be fun. >I'm thinking that PC-100 is half of the bus speed. So everything works at >200MHz except for the memory bus. But that's just a guess, I can't check it >at the moment. :) That might be the other solution. >Whatever, half speed cache sucks. I know why AMD had to take their cache >down to half speed when they hit the 800MHz zone, but still... why do you >think the Celeron A series did so well? Yes, they were overclockable - but >so was the original Celerons. And they had no cache memory worth speaking >of. Yeah, but I prefer 100MHz bus clock instead of 66MHz. >> An Englishman never enjoys himself, except for a noble purpose. >> -- A. P. Herbert >I'll agree with this one. ;) I bet you do! It seems you enjoy that I activated the fortunes in the signature when I switched from BeMail to Mail-It. -- M.I.Ke The bogosity meter just pegged. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 9 23:21:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03725 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:21:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004100625.IAA25900@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <000364ab80442c07_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 7, 2000 03:04:44 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:25:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > It's also interesting to consider which optimisations can be performed when: > > * Source Layer > Mainly flag evaluation supression can be utilized here, maybe even some > peephole optimisation. > > * Target Layer > Peephole optimisation should form the largest part here, optionally combined > with register allocation. > > * Code Emitter > All code reordering should be done here. > > The main reason for identifying the right layers for each optimisation method > is to reduce the need of having to program that optimisation anew when the > dynarec is ported to another system or a new dynarec is added to the same > host. > I think this can be a good approach. Perhaps it would be good if we think about this a bit more. But I'm still a bit sleepy this morning so I don't have new ideas :(. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 9 23:36:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03756 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004100640.IAA18081@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <000364ab62ec30f0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 7, 2000 02:56:31 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:40:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Paul Clifford had an experimental dynarec versionof his PCEngine emulator for > RISC OS. It wasn't optimising and therefore slower than the interpreter > written in ARM assembly, so he told me. > Interesting. I think in theory if the translation is made fast (as in NB recompiler) without optimizations the code will be still better because you don't have the decode overhead of a interpreter. You see when interpreting the code for each instruction is something like this: instr_xx() { perhaps_some_more_decode implement_instruction test_elapsed_cycles decode_next_instruction_and_jump } The main decode is implemented with an array of functions for each instruction accessed by opcode as usual. In a recompiler all decoding is made only once and this time is wasted by the recompiler for emit the translated code. If you execute enough instructions and reuse the translated code the time spended in decoding in an interpreter will be larger than the time spended translating. For this to be true is needed that the translation don't be a lot of more slow than the decoding in the interpreter. What I can't really believe is that a well done recompiler will be slower than a C (or other high-level language) interpreter. He said what was the bottleneck in the recompiler? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 00:15:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03841 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:15:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:15:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38EDA19C.B68ED88A@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > An easy optimisation is to use the registers as much as possible - but can > > > we do such things as pipelining, yet keeping the optimiser fast > > Why not? Pipelining would be a bunch of table lookups and reorderings. > That's true. But I'm thinking about a faster CPU than a Z80 - the TMS38310 > (not sure about the numbers) or the 68K. But then... hmm, when I think > about it, no. We can still do optimisation on these and still stay fast. > Okay. So, what optimisation methods can we use? I'm not even sure why we're talking about this. Any optimizations done would only have to be done *ONCE* and never again. Even if it took a whopping 10 seconds to recompile an entire 512K chunk of code it still wouldn't be a big deal. Why does everyone think this will be a big time sink? > be too much of an issue. So, what's the most advanced/fastest CPU used in > arcade machines that we could possibly emulate now? Some games use 68030s, but the 34010 is pretty beefy. 50MHZ. It's basically an 8 cycle blitter chip. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 00:20:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03870 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:20:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <000364ab62ec30f0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >a fast translation you will be always faster than and interpreter. And I'm > >talking about in assembler made interpreter, so you can think about a C > >interpreter. Translated code will be ever faster than interpreter code. > Paul Clifford had an experimental dynarec versionof his PCEngine emulator for > RISC OS. It wasn't optimising and therefore slower than the interpreter > written in ARM assembly, so he told me. No offense, but if his recompiler is slower than his interpreted code, it's a creappy recompiler. Any recompiler should be able to out clock an interpreted emulator. At worst case the recompiler should be no worse than the interpreted emulator since it doesn't have to fetch any code. If your recompiler is slower than your emulated version of the core, then your recompiler frankly sucks. There's no excuse for it, actually. > That's why I wrote that both systems should have a relatively large number of > registers. On IA-32 a dynamic register allocator would end up constantly > swapping registers. Yup. That's why I use the "pick 4 and use them". You'll find fairly uniform allocation across all CPUs (like the 68K for example). There are registers that are used more than others. Though the 34010 seems to break that mold. > >> looses the ability to jump to any preferred instruction, so optimisations > >> have to be carefully picked. > >And timing accuracy also it's affected a bit. > Indeed, that's why NB's current approach is the best solution for timing > sensitive systems. Even for timing insensitive techniques it's still the best solution. ;-) > >Hehe, you are right. Intel uses now a 133 Mhz bus and AMD a 200 Mhz bus, I > >think. > The Athlon can use a 200MHz bus, but there are no PC-200 DIMMs so I guess it > uses a 133MHz bus as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong... No one can seem to make the 200MHZ memory bus actually function full speed for any length of time, which is why no one is manufacturing RAM for the thing. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 00:23:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03887 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:23:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:23:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <200004100625.IAA25900@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > * Target Layer > > Peephole optimisation should form the largest part here, optionally combined > > with register allocation. > > * Code Emitter > > All code reordering should be done here. In my approach the target layer and the code emitter are really the same layer. You don't want to divorce them because the target layer can pass hints to the code emission routines to indicate what instructions can be combined, pitched, ignored, reordered, etc... Having them tightly coupled is a huge advantage. > > The main reason for identifying the right layers for each optimisation method > > is to reduce the need of having to program that optimisation anew when the > > dynarec is ported to another system or a new dynarec is added to the same > > host. Right. And in my case, you'd have to rewrite a target layer for every target that you'd want to support. But the "architecture" I've got allows you to share the atoms amongst multiple recompiler cores. The part that creates (from my example) an sOp. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 00:27:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03936 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004100729.JAA31985@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Apr 10, 2000 00:15:55 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:29:44 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I'm not even sure why we're talking about this. Any optimizations done > would only have to be done *ONCE* and never again. Even if it took a > whopping 10 seconds to recompile an entire 512K chunk of code it still > wouldn't be a big deal. Why does everyone think this will be a big time > sink? > Ummm, you are right but perhaps you need more than 10 seconds for some optimization . And you don't translate all the code in a single shot so you can have a emulator that sometimes (when executing the code the first time) slowdowns (what It musn't to be bad, genecyst did that on my old 486, first a bit slow and a couple of second later run a lot of faster, something similar when using a cache). The problem I see is we are talking about theory without a practical base. We (I) haven't tested these ideas yet. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 00:30:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03948 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F18242.BEE24FD9@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:26:58 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I'm not even sure why we're talking about this. Any optimizations done > would only have to be done *ONCE* and never again. Even if it took a > whopping 10 seconds to recompile an entire 512K chunk of code it still > wouldn't be a big deal. Why does everyone think this will be a big time > sink? Because what would happen if that 512KB chunk had some minor opcodes changed each cycle so you'd have to recompile that chunk each time? > > be too much of an issue. So, what's the most advanced/fastest CPU used in > > arcade machines that we could possibly emulate now? > > Some games use 68030s, but the 34010 is pretty beefy. 50MHZ. It's > basically an 8 cycle blitter chip. Okay, but I think I want to leave that one alone for the time being. :) 68k series, here I come! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 00:32:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03961 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:32:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:32:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F18242.BEE24FD9@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > whopping 10 seconds to recompile an entire 512K chunk of code it still > > wouldn't be a big deal. Why does everyone think this will be a big time > > sink? > Because what would happen if that 512KB chunk had some minor opcodes > changed each cycle so you'd have to recompile that chunk each time? You're assuming that the code writes self modifying code, which isn't the case for 99.9% of the code out there, so you shouldn't be hung up on it. The last time I saw self modifying code was in a video game two years ago and I'm only aware of 1 out of a thousand. In that case, a recompiler isn't the right solution. An emulated interpreter is. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 01:16:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04121 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:16:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F18C51.25A0BC9E@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:09:53 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Because what would happen if that 512KB chunk had some minor opcodes > > changed each cycle so you'd have to recompile that chunk each time? > > You're assuming that the code writes self modifying code, which isn't the > case for 99.9% of the code out there, so you shouldn't be hung up on it. So why write a dynamic recompiler then if we're not thinking about self modifying code? If I'm to discount that, I may as well just write a dynamic compiler. > The last time I saw self modifying code was in a video game two years ago > and I'm only aware of 1 out of a thousand. In that case, a recompiler > isn't the right solution. An emulated interpreter is. I was personally thinking about computers where I've seen self-modifying code a lot. Except in a lot of the newer stuff, I must admit. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 01:24:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04147 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004100828.KAA11862@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F18C51.25A0BC9E@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 10, 2000 10:09:53 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:28:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > So why write a dynamic recompiler then if we're not thinking about self > modifying code? If I'm to discount that, I may as well just write a dynamic > compiler. > Another time this? I think all agreed that 'dynamic recompiler' it's the name used and known everywhere by everybody for dynamic translation doesn't matter if it's a recompiler or a only a compiler. BTW has anyone done a real dynamic REcompiler? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 01:44:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04242 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F193C0.BCA3AC39@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:41:36 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004100828.KAA11862@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Another time this? I think all agreed that 'dynamic recompiler' it's the name > used and known everywhere by everybody for dynamic translation doesn't matter if > it's a recompiler or a only a compiler. BTW has anyone done a real dynamic > REcompiler? Eh? I came up with a list of terms a few weeks ago and we all agreed. A dynamic recompiler handles self-modifying code. A dynamic compiler doesn't. If we want to come up with new terms, then great - but until then, I'm correct and you're not. Nyarh! ;p :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 02:33:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04493 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F193C0.BCA3AC39@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 10, 2000 10:41:36 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:34:32 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > Another time this? I think all agreed that 'dynamic recompiler' it's the name > > used and known everywhere by everybody for dynamic translation doesn't matter if > > it's a recompiler or a only a compiler. BTW has anyone done a real dynamic > > REcompiler? > > Eh? I came up with a list of terms a few weeks ago and we all agreed. A > dynamic recompiler handles self-modifying code. A dynamic compiler doesn't. > If we want to come up with new terms, then great - but until then, I'm > correct and you're not. Nyarh! ;p > > :) > But it seems people haven't agreed totally with your terms :) It doesn't matter really. Next time I will call dynamic compilation to all it, because you have to agree there is noone doing dynamic recompilation. Talking about SI tutorial. What was your idea about this tutorial? I took a loot to the INVZ in MUL8 page that uses MZ80 core and the video and sound hardware are really easy. The main difficulty it's the 8080 core. You planned to do the 8080 core? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 02:49:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04521 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:49:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:46:46 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > But it seems people haven't agreed totally with your terms :) Maybe. But they should do! ;) > It doesn't matter really. Next time I will call dynamic compilation to all it, > because you have to agree there is noone doing dynamic recompilation. I thought that NBs could handle self-modifying code? Or, to change that, *will* be able to. The thing with me is that I make a distinction. That's because I'm looking at starting to co-write a 68k which dynamically compiles. This is because I will be emulating an arcade machine which generally won't use self-modifying code (and I'll be really, really upset if it does). Don't really want to talk about it too much because we haven't completely decided on everything yet, though we are getting there. One thing is for sure that it'll be a Win32 emulator. We should be writing it so that it's portable, yet fast. It needs a huge amount of function pointers, though. Oh yes, and we're going to try and make it OOP with C++. Yes, we both love a challenge. :) > Talking about SI tutorial. What was your idea about this tutorial? I took a loot > to the INVZ in MUL8 page that uses MZ80 core and the video and sound hardware > are really easy. The main difficulty it's the 8080 core. You planned to do > the 8080 core? Yep, I planned to write everything. Because I really feel sorry for people who want to start it, I'll make a deal. I'll overlook the whole thing, helping out whenever necessary, but I can't maintain it or even keep control of the whole project. I have a Real Life(tm) to look after - and I want to do this emulator I've sort of not mentioned at all. Especially now that I'll be starting German lessons, I'm keeping up Ju-jitsu (and teaching some Judo techniques as well, apparently - I was asked to) and I generally have too much work. I'm in work from 8:15am through to 6:55pm - it's a really, really long day and I feel really tired after it. Two choices, basically: 1) We start the SI tutorial now with me just helping out and someone else with control over the project. 2) We wait until the end of August which is when I finish here and I'll have lots more free time. Seeing as I don't think people are that patient, I really want someone to take over. I just don't have the time... ...and besides, when the other guy and myself get this emulator working, people should be impressed! That's the plan, anyway! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 02:56:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04548 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: VICTOR MOYA DEL BARRIO Message-Id: <200004100955.LAA19459@alabi.fib.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 10, 0 11:46:46 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:55:13 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It doesn't matter really. Next time I will call dynamic compilation to all it, > > because you have to agree there is noone doing dynamic recompilation. > > I thought that NBs could handle self-modifying code? Or, to change that, > *will* be able to. > In fact any dynamic compiler will be able to. NB compiler it's not thought for self-modifying code. > Don't really want to talk about it too much because we haven't completely > decided on everything yet, though we are getting there. One thing is for > sure that it'll be a Win32 emulator. We should be writing it so that it's > portable, yet fast. It needs a huge amount of function pointers, though. Oh > yes, and we're going to try and make it OOP with C++. Yes, we both love a > challenge. :) > I hope the better luck to your projecct. > Yep, I planned to write everything. Because I really feel sorry for people > who want to start it, I'll make a deal. I'll overlook the whole thing, > helping out whenever necessary, but I can't maintain it or even keep > control of the whole project. I have a Real Life(tm) to look after - and I > want to do this emulator I've sort of not mentioned at all. Especially now > that I'll be starting German lessons, I'm keeping up Ju-jitsu (and teaching > some Judo techniques as well, apparently - I was asked to) and I generally > have too much work. I'm in work from 8:15am through to 6:55pm - it's a > really, really long day and I feel really tired after it. > > Two choices, basically: > > 1) We start the SI tutorial now with me just helping out and someone else > with control over the project. > 2) We wait until the end of August which is when I finish here and I'll > have lots more free time. > > Seeing as I don't think people are that patient, I really want someone to > take over. I just don't have the time... > > ...and besides, when the other guy and myself get this emulator working, > people should be impressed! That's the plan, anyway! :) > I have no more time today. Perhaps I will be interested, more in the 8080 core part, but I need still to think about it. I will say something tomorrow. Sorry. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 05:14:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04812 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <000364e6ef7f4d44_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:59:13 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No offense, but if his recompiler is slower than his interpreted code, >it's a creappy recompiler. Any recompiler should be able to out clock an >interpreted emulator. At worst case the recompiler should be no worse than >the interpreted emulator since it doesn't have to fetch any code. If your >recompiler is slower than your emulated version of the core, then your >recompiler frankly sucks. There's no excuse for it, actually. >From the knowledge I have now I can simply agree with what you are saying. But when I had my dicussions with him I just started to be insterested in dynarecs and didn't know much, so I just had to believe what he told me. >Yup. That's why I use the "pick 4 and use them". You'll find fairly >uniform allocation across all CPUs (like the 68K for example). There are >registers that are used more than others. Though the 34010 seems to break >that mold. There is always an exception to the rule ;-) >Even for timing insensitive techniques it's still the best solution. ;-) And it's the cleanest solution of course! ;-) >No one can seem to make the 200MHZ memory bus actually function full speed >for any length of time, which is why no one is manufacturing RAM for the >thing. So what for do I need a 1GHz processor when it's slowed down by the bus bottleneck? -- M.I.Ke A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 05:14:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04822 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <000364e6fb0e7271_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:02:27 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >In my approach the target layer and the code emitter are really the same >layer. You don't want to divorce them because the target layer can pass >hints to the code emission routines to indicate what instructions can be >combined, pitched, ignored, reordered, etc... Having them tightly coupled >is a huge advantage. But I think it's still possible to reuse the code emitter for a different target layer. >Right. And in my case, you'd have to rewrite a target layer for every >target that you'd want to support. But the "architecture" I've got allows >you to share the atoms amongst multiple recompiler cores. The part that >creates (from my example) an sOp. Indeed, you'd have one code emitter per host platform and one source layer for every emulated CPU. The only thing that needs to be rewritten during a port is the target layer, right? -- M.I.Ke Cabbage, n.: A familiar kitchen-garden vegetable about as large and wise as a man's head. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 05:14:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04827 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F193C0.BCA3AC39@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364e70b043c72_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004100828.KAA11862@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F193C0.BCA3AC39@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:06:55 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Nyarh! ;p Could you translate that please? ;-) -- M.I.Ke Pascal, n.: A programming language named after a man who would turn over in his grave if he knew about it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 05:14:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04834 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:15:33 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Maybe. But they should do! ;) When you tell me I should do something I'll just do the opposite thing ;-) >I thought that NBs could handle self-modifying code? Or, to change that, >*will* be able to. He could add it but it's up to him if he wants to. >The thing with me is that I make a distinction. That's because I'm looking >at starting to co-write a 68k which dynamically compiles. This is because I >will be emulating an arcade machine which generally won't use >self-modifying code (and I'll be really, really upset if it does). Good luck! ;-) >Don't really want to talk about it too much because we haven't completely >decided on everything yet, though we are getting there. One thing is for >sure that it'll be a Win32 emulator. Not BeOS? :-( >We should be writing it so that it's portable, yet fast. I guess you mean portable to other x86 based OSs. >It needs a huge amount of function pointers, though. Oh >yes, and we're going to try and make it OOP with C++. Fast and C++, isn't that an oxymoron? I means C++ compilers generate such overheads that you won't be lucky with the speed of it! >...and besides, when the other guy and myself get this emulator working, >people should be impressed! That's the plan, anyway! :) How about simply naming the compiler "Impressive" then? ;-) -- M.I.Ke Support wildlife -- vote for an orgy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 05:31:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04889 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F1C8E8.E62C7E52@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:28:24 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <000364e6ef7f4d44_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Yup. That's why I use the "pick 4 and use them". You'll find fairly > >uniform allocation across all CPUs (like the 68K for example). There are > >registers that are used more than others. Though the 34010 seems to break > >that mold. > > There is always an exception to the rule ;-) Yep. What's the saying? Something like "The exception proves the rule" or something. That's a load of crap, that is. I mean... if it's a rule... :) > >No one can seem to make the 200MHZ memory bus actually function full speed > >for any length of time, which is why no one is manufacturing RAM for the > >thing. > > So what for do I need a 1GHz processor when it's slowed down by the bus > bottleneck? You don't, to put it simply. No-one who does normal tasks - even playing games - needs a 1GHz processor. But if you did go for 1GHz, it'd be great for anything that isn't pulling or pushing huge chunks of data from the memory bus. So if you're dealing with lots of small chunks of data, you're fine. They've pipelined the memory bus to get it up to speed - but if you aren't reading logically then it doesn't help. At the moment it's the memory speeds that are slowing *everything* down. Well, okay, not everything. I mean, I don't need a faster keyboard. ;) The problem with both Intel and AMD using such large branch predictions isn't generally thought about. Yes, it means you can get faster CPUs. However, it also means that you get a much more difficult to produce CPU. It's why they are so expensive and not widely available. It's also the reason for so many chip failures (or, to rephrase, so many *more* failures). This is, of course, my opinion - but I don't think I'm wrong in this. If I am, I'm sure NB will let me know in no uncertain terms. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 05:43:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04942 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:41:03 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Maybe. But they should do! ;) > > When you tell me I should do something I'll just do the opposite thing ;-) Okay. So in your case, you shouldn't do it. ;) > >I thought that NBs could handle self-modifying code? Or, to change that, > >*will* be able to. > > He could add it but it's up to him if he wants to. I thought it was meant to support it anyway. It needs to if it is to be used in a computer such as the Amiga. > >The thing with me is that I make a distinction. That's because I'm looking > >at starting to co-write a 68k which dynamically compiles. This is because I > >will be emulating an arcade machine which generally won't use > >self-modifying code (and I'll be really, really upset if it does). > > Good luck! ;-) Thanks. We'll both need it looking at the feature set we're making a list up of! And the worst thing is that our e-mails have increased to about 70k each time - and this is without attachments! We're spending more time writing the e-mails than code! ;) > >Don't really want to talk about it too much because we haven't completely > >decided on everything yet, though we are getting there. One thing is for > >sure that it'll be a Win32 emulator. > > Not BeOS? :-( It's not out of the question. It's just that we want to write it for one platform at a time. It should be easily platform portable - we are writing it with things like this in mind. > >We should be writing it so that it's portable, yet fast. > > I guess you mean portable to other x86 based OSs. Well... yes. Though the main thing that would need to be changed for other CPU types would be the CPU core, so it's not totally out of the question... > >It needs a huge amount of function pointers, though. Oh > >yes, and we're going to try and make it OOP with C++. > > Fast and C++, isn't that an oxymoron? Not quite, no. > I means C++ compilers generate such overheads that you won't be lucky with > the speed of it! We've taken this into account too. I think too much is said about the "overheads". Yes, there are some. But you can get around most of them if you structure the code correctly. And make use of virtuals and pointers. And we'll be compiling it with VC6 Enterprise Edition, so it should be pretty fast. Besides, making use of things like DirectX is a little easier in C++. > >...and besides, when the other guy and myself get this emulator working, > >people should be impressed! That's the plan, anyway! :) > > How about simply naming the compiler "Impressive" then? ;-) Heh. We've got a better name for the emulator. Wait and see. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 06:04:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA04994 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:04:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:02:22 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Okay. So in your case, you shouldn't do it. ;) Teasing again? ;-) [self-modifying code] >I thought it was meant to support it anyway. It needs to if it is to be >used in a computer such as the Amiga. I guess NB wants to get SI running first before he thinks of such topics. >Thanks. We'll both need it looking at the feature set we're making a list >up of! And the worst thing is that our e-mails have increased to about 70k >each time - and this is without attachments! We're spending more time >writing the e-mails than code! ;) Oh my... >> Not BeOS? :-( >It's not out of the question. It's just that we want to write it for one >platform at a time. It should be easily platform portable - we are writing >it with things like this in mind. Nice ;-) >Well... yes. Though the main thing that would need to be changed for other >CPU types would be the CPU core, so it's not totally out of the question... I hope you do it clean then ;-) >We've taken this into account too. I think too much is said about the >"overheads". Yes, there are some. But you can get around most of them if >you structure the code correctly. And make use of virtuals and pointers. If you are using pointers then it isn't clean C++... >And we'll be compiling it with VC6 Enterprise Edition, so it should be >pretty fast. I guess the Voyager Edition would be even faster ;-) >Besides, making use of things like DirectX is a little easier in C++. Ah, the API also one reason why you have to program BeOS mainly in C++. >Heh. We've got a better name for the emulator. Wait and see. :) Now you made me curious... -- M.I.Ke "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a bit longer." -- Henry Kissinger --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 06:04:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA05002 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F1C8E8.E62C7E52@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364e7dd9f9582_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <000364e6ef7f4d44_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1C8E8.E62C7E52@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:05:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yep. What's the saying? Something like "The exception proves the rule" or >something. That's a load of crap, that is. I mean... if it's a rule... :) Hehe. Language certainly isn't logical. >You don't, to put it simply. No-one who does normal tasks - even playing >games - needs a 1GHz processor. That's what I thought. >They've pipelined the memory bus to get it up to speed - but if you aren't >reading logically then it doesn't help. At the moment it's the memory >speeds that are slowing *everything* down. Well, okay, not everything. I >mean, I don't need a faster keyboard. ;) Or a buttonless mouse ;-) I mean the fastest way would be to plug directly into the computer, cyberpunk -like. >The problem with both Intel and AMD using such large branch predictions >isn't generally thought about. Yes, it means you can get faster CPUs. >However, it also means that you get a much more difficult to produce CPU. >It's why they are so expensive and not widely available. It's also the >reason for so many chip failures (or, to rephrase, so many *more* >failures). This is, of course, my opinion - but I don't think I'm wrong in >this. Well, I'd agree with you. >If I am, I'm sure NB will let me know in no uncertain terms. :) Sure ;-) -- M.I.Ke You will remember, Watson, how the dreadful business of the Abernetty family was first brought to my notice by the depth which the parsley had sunk into the butter upon a hot day. -- Sherlock Holmes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 06:35:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA05072 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:35:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:32:02 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Okay. So in your case, you shouldn't do it. ;) > > Teasing again? ;-) Of course not! ;) > [self-modifying code] > >I thought it was meant to support it anyway. It needs to if it is to be > >used in a computer such as the Amiga. > > I guess NB wants to get SI running first before he thinks of such topics. He's already started thinking about it. So have I. But that's something for the future... > >It's not out of the question. It's just that we want to write it for one > >platform at a time. It should be easily platform portable - we are writing > >it with things like this in mind. > > Nice ;-) Thanks. We're currently looking at the MAME source so that we know what we SHOULDN'T do. It's one of the great things about open source. You can look at the mistakes that others have made - and then try not to copy them. :) I won't guarantee we won't make our own, though. :) > >Well... yes. Though the main thing that would need to be changed for other > >CPU types would be the CPU core, so it's not totally out of the question... > > I hope you do it clean then ;-) That's the plan. > >We've taken this into account too. I think too much is said about the > >"overheads". Yes, there are some. But you can get around most of them if > >you structure the code correctly. And make use of virtuals and pointers. > > If you are using pointers then it isn't clean C++... So? I don't care. The use of OOP is good - especially for multi-platform emulators. And pointers are good. Admittedly they aren't so great for a true OO design - but we both want speed as well. > >And we'll be compiling it with VC6 Enterprise Edition, so it should be > >pretty fast. > > I guess the Voyager Edition would be even faster ;-) Please, let's not get onto Sci-Fi again. :) > >Besides, making use of things like DirectX is a little easier in C++. > > Ah, the API also one reason why you have to program BeOS mainly in C++. Really? I haven't looked. But DirectX won't be our only API - it's just the one we'll probably start off with. > >Heh. We've got a better name for the emulator. Wait and see. :) > > Now you made me curious... That was the plan. ;) But it wasn't me who came up with the name, so I'm not about to tell everybody. And the scary thing is that the other guy is on this list - but hasn't said anything yet. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 07:18:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA05169 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:18:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:09:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >He's already started thinking about it. So have I. But that's something for >the future... You certainly cannot do everything at the same time... >Thanks. We're currently looking at the MAME source so that we know what we >SHOULDN'T do. Hehe, I bet so! >It's one of the great things about open source. You can look >at the mistakes that others have made - and then try not to copy them. :) Just imagine if Windows would be open source!!! ;-) >I won't guarantee we won't make our own, though. :) Erare humanum est. >So? I don't care. The use of OOP is good - especially for multi-platform >emulators. And pointers are good. Admittedly they aren't so great for a >true OO design - but we both want speed as well. So it's a hybrid design ;-) >Please, let's not get onto Sci-Fi again. :) Why not? Hey, what about fantasy? It seems that the LOTR trailer has been released: http://www.webslacker.com/lotr/ >But it wasn't me who came up with the name, so I'm not about to tell >everybody. And the scary thing is that the other guy is on this list - but >hasn't said anything yet. :) What? Even more lurkers?!? I wonder how they are able to listen to our discussions without writing a comment or going totally nuts ;-) -- M.I.Ke "This is a country where people are free to practice their religion, regardless of race, creed, color, obesity, or number of dangling keys ..." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 08:17:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA05332 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:17:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:14:07 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Thanks. We're currently looking at the MAME source so that we know what we > >SHOULDN'T do. > > Hehe, I bet so! Well, that's what MAME is for, isn't it? :) > >It's one of the great things about open source. You can look > >at the mistakes that others have made - and then try not to copy them. :) > > Just imagine if Windows would be open source!!! ;-) Heh. It'd be interesting to see, actually. A big project like that. I wonder how they maintain it? It's impressive they get a end-product anyway - especially given the time it takes. I may not respect the business practices of Microsoft, but they do have some talented guys working for them - and they do produce some good stuff. I can understand the amount of bugs in the software too - but I think that they shouldn't charge so much for software they know has X amount of bugs... > >I won't guarantee we won't make our own, though. :) > > Erare humanum est. Exactly, and I agree. > >So? I don't care. The use of OOP is good - especially for multi-platform > >emulators. And pointers are good. Admittedly they aren't so great for a > >true OO design - but we both want speed as well. > > So it's a hybrid design ;-) No, it's just a great design. ;) > >Please, let's not get onto Sci-Fi again. :) > > Why not? Because we'll all join in again and increase the amount of traffic in this list tenfold - yet not discuss anything emulation related. I enjoy it - but I wonder if EVERYONE does? :o > Hey, what about fantasy? It seems that the LOTR trailer has been released: > http://www.webslacker.com/lotr/ Yes, I know - but I'm not watching it across my modem and there is no version of Quicktime 4.0 for Solaris. So I won't be watching it... :-/ > >But it wasn't me who came up with the name, so I'm not about to tell > >everybody. And the scary thing is that the other guy is on this list - but > >hasn't said anything yet. :) > > What? Even more lurkers?!? I think there's lots. Asking NB might be good - he runs the mailing list on Synthcom! > I wonder how they are able to listen to our discussions without writing a > comment or going totally nuts ;-) They're on a Dynamic Recompilation mailing list. I can't imagine normal people subscribing to it to start with! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 09:19:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA05487 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364ea96102809_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:20:32 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Well, that's what MAME is for, isn't it? :) Maybe they just want to get another Guinnes record for the most people working on a single program? >Heh. It'd be interesting to see, actually. A big project like that. I >wonder how they maintain it? I don't even want to know! >It's impressive they get a end-product anyway >- especially given the time it takes. I may not respect the business >practices of Microsoft, but they do have some talented guys working for >them Yeah, two ex-Microsoft programmers founded Valve... >- and they do produce some good stuff. Eg. Cabinet compression... >I can understand the amount of bugs in the software too - We sometimes get very strange bugs on certain computers or with special database systems, it will be even worse for an OS that has to work with so much different hardware. >but I think that they shouldn't charge so much >for software they know has X amount of bugs... Indeed. >No, it's just a great design. ;) "Eigenlob stinkt!" - I don't know if I should translate that ;-) >Because we'll all join in again and increase the amount of traffic in this >list tenfold - yet not discuss anything emulation related. So what? >I enjoy it - Me too. >but I wonder if EVERYONE does? :o Well, I wonder who "everyone" is, BTW! >> http://www.webslacker.com/lotr/ >Yes, I know - but I'm not watching it across my modem and there is no >version of Quicktime 4.0 for Solaris. So I won't be watching it... :-/ That's why you have non-Quicktime versions on that site. >I think there's lots. Oh shit, I have to be careful what I say... >Asking NB might be good - he runs the mailing list on Synthcom! Hey, NB what about telling us how many guys are on the list? I don't ask for their addresses if they want to stay in the shadows, but it would be nice to know how many lurkers we have... >They're on a Dynamic Recompilation mailing list. I can't imagine normal >people subscribing to it to start with! :o You have a point there! ;-) -- M.I.Ke Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 09:34:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA05553 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:34:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F20235.8C7AC029@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:32:53 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> <000364ea96102809_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Well, that's what MAME is for, isn't it? :) > > Maybe they just want to get another Guinnes record for the most people > working on a single program? For a free program, maybe. But I think projects like Linux and FreeBSD still beat that... > Yeah, two ex-Microsoft programmers founded Valve... Did they? Didn't know that. > >- and they do produce some good stuff. > > Eg. Cabinet compression... Visual Studio, Office etc. Although Office is slow because lots of it is in Pseudo-code. Why?! The only reason I can come up with is: Intel. > >No, it's just a great design. ;) > > "Eigenlob stinkt!" - I don't know if I should translate that ;-) "Praise your own stink"? Er, can I give that a miss? ;) > >Because we'll all join in again and increase the amount of traffic in this > >list tenfold - yet not discuss anything emulation related. > > So what? Okay, you have a point. ;)) > >but I wonder if EVERYONE does? :o > > Well, I wonder who "everyone" is, BTW! This is true. > >Yes, I know - but I'm not watching it across my modem and there is no > >version of Quicktime 4.0 for Solaris. So I won't be watching it... :-/ > > That's why you have non-Quicktime versions on that site. Is there? On the official site on Friday the only available format was QT4. > >I think there's lots. > > Oh shit, I have to be careful what I say... Let's insult lots of countries and see who replies. ;) > >Asking NB might be good - he runs the mailing list on Synthcom! > > Hey, NB what about telling us how many guys are on the list? I don't ask for > their addresses if they want to stay in the shadows, but it would be nice to > know how many lurkers we have... This is true. :) > >They're on a Dynamic Recompilation mailing list. I can't imagine normal > >people subscribing to it to start with! :o > > You have a point there! ;-) Thanks. :) > Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal. Because of the lack of grammar in this, this sentence doesn't make sense. It's quite funny though. :) I suppose if the drink in question was Guinness, it might be possible... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 12:19:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA06144 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F20235.8C7AC029@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364ed1c947a03_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> <000364ea96102809_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F20235.8C7AC029@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:21:19 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >For a free program, maybe. But I think projects like Linux and FreeBSD >still beat that... As projects, yes. But probably not as a single program. >> Yeah, two ex-Microsoft programmers founded Valve... >Did they? Didn't know that. At least that's what I've read. >Visual Studio, Don't know it. >Office etc. Although Office is slow because lots of it is in >Pseudo-code. Why?! The only reason I can come up with is: Intel. Office is crap! >"Praise your own stink"? Er, can I give that a miss? ;) "Praising your own work stinks", but you were pretty close! >Okay, you have a point. ;)) Does that mean we can discuss SF again? ;-) >> That's why you have non-Quicktime versions on that site. >Is there? On the official site on Friday the only available format was QT4. Maybe not non-Quicktime, but certainly not QT4 so it should run on BeOS and Linux: http://www.webslacker.com/lotr/ >Let's insult lots of countries and see who replies. ;) You already tried it on a general basis ("Your country sux!") without much effect... >> Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal. >Because of the lack of grammar in this, this sentence doesn't make sense. >It's quite funny though. :) I don't write this, I just activated the fortunes. When I browsed through that file once I found some nice ones: "A baby is an alimentary canal with a loud voice at one end and no responsibility at the other." ;-) >I suppose if the drink in question was Guinness, it might be possible... >:)) Haven't tried Guinness yet. Germany beer is better anyway ;-) -- M.I.Ke Cloning is the sincerest form of flattery. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 14:25:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA06655 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:25:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003201bfa335$efb25820$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> <000364ea96102809_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F20235.8C7AC029@eurocopter.de> <000364ed1c947a03_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:43:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >For a free program, maybe. But I think projects like Linux and FreeBSD > >still beat that... > > As projects, yes. But probably not as a single program. The kernel could be counted as a single driver. Especially when you compare MAME to it... > At least that's what I've read. > > >Visual Studio, > > Don't know it. I'm sure you know the various components - like VC and VB for instance. > >Office etc. Although Office is slow because lots of it is in > >Pseudo-code. Why?! The only reason I can come up with is: Intel. > > Office is crap! Only decent alternative I can think of is StarOffice. > >"Praise your own stink"? Er, can I give that a miss? ;) > > "Praising your own work stinks", but you were pretty close! Not bad, I suppose. My German is definitely coming along nicely, isn't it? :) > >Okay, you have a point. ;)) > > Does that mean we can discuss SF again? ;-) Erm... let's see if anyone starts crying first. :) > >Is there? On the official site on Friday the only available format was QT4. > > Maybe not non-Quicktime, but certainly not QT4 so it should run on BeOS and > Linux: > http://www.webslacker.com/lotr/ I'll have a go tomorrow then. :) > >Let's insult lots of countries and see who replies. ;) > > You already tried it on a general basis ("Your country sux!") without much > effect... Okay, let's be more explicit: Okay, your country sucks - and you smell of elderberries! Let me know if I'm wrong! ;) > >Because of the lack of grammar in this, this sentence doesn't make sense. > >It's quite funny though. :) > > I don't write this, I just activated the fortunes. Of course, I know this. Otherwise it'd be strange why you write things like "Blah blah blah - Winston Churchill". ;) > When I browsed through that file once I found some nice ones: > "A baby is an alimentary canal with a loud voice at one end and no > responsibility at the other." > ;-) I like that one. :) > >I suppose if the drink in question was Guinness, it might be possible... > >:)) > > Haven't tried Guinness yet. Germany beer is better anyway ;-) Guinness isn't a beer. It's a stout. I've no particular idea what the difference is, but if there are any Guinness drinkers on this list, you'll probably get flamed for calling it a beer. ;) I hate it, by the way. Tastes like complete crap to me... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 14:48:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA06789 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:48:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <003201bfa335$efb25820$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <000364ef30cfa6d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> <000364ea96102809_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F20235.8C7AC029@eurocopter.de> <000364ed1c947a03_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <003201bfa335$efb25820$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:50:09 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> >Visual Studio, >> Don't know it. >I'm sure you know the various components - like VC and VB for instance. Ah, now I know. But I haven't worked with these yet. >Only decent alternative I can think of is StarOffice. I guess Gobe Productive on BeOS is quite good, I think of buying it. On Atari ST you have Signum and for RISC OS there's TechWriter, which fits onto one 1.44MB disc (without the spelling dictionary) and is even able to open some Word documents that Office screwed up ;-) >Not bad, I suppose. My German is definitely coming along nicely, isn't it? >:) Yes indeed, I'm quite impressed. You seem to do the first steps in understanding German morphology, which might not be as complex as for Finnish but it's certainly more complicated than in English. >Erm... let's see if anyone starts crying first. :) I give everyone on the list 24 hours to start complaining ;-) >I'll have a go tomorrow then. :) It's Quicktime but in Cinepak format, whatever that means. I haven't tested it yet as the download would take ages with my modem. >Okay, your country sucks - and you smell of elderberries! Let me know if I'm >wrong! >;) Is "you smell of elderberries" a flame in English?? >Of course, I know this. Otherwise it'd be strange why you write things like >"Blah blah blah - Winston Churchill". ;) Well, as you noted we are all strange people on the list ;-) >Guinness isn't a beer. It's a stout. I've no particular idea what the >difference is, but if there are any Guinness drinkers on this list, you'll >probably get flamed for calling it a beer. ;) According to my English-German dictionary "stout" means "Starkbier", which is what you'll currently get in Munich. But there has to be some other difference as well. >I hate it, by the way. Tastes like complete crap to me... Haven't tasted it yet, but it looks a bit like muddy water, and I heard that the foam was similar to concrete... -- M.I.Ke Oh, I am a C programmer and I'm okay I muck with indices and structs all day And when it works, I shout hoo-ray Oh, I am a C programmer and I'm okay --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:26:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01198 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:26:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2C4F0.42B6BC@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:23:44 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> <000364ea96102809_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F20235.8C7AC029@eurocopter.de> <000364ed1c947a03_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <003201bfa335$efb25820$0100a8c0@lion> <000364ef30cfa6d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I'm sure you know the various components - like VC and VB for instance. > > Ah, now I know. But I haven't worked with these yet. Really? That's... surprising. I'd have thought that EVERYONE would have used VB by now - in one of its forms... > >Only decent alternative I can think of is StarOffice. > > I guess Gobe Productive on BeOS is quite good, I think of buying it. > On Atari ST you have Signum and for RISC OS there's TechWriter, which fits > onto one 1.44MB disc (without the spelling dictionary) and is even able to > open some Word documents that Office screwed up ;-) But the problem with all of these is that I don't use them. So I have two alternatives: MS Office or StarOffice. Seeing as I get to use MS Office for free, it's fine by me. If I had to pay, I'd be using StarOffice. > >Not bad, I suppose. My German is definitely coming along nicely, isn't it? > >:) > > Yes indeed, I'm quite impressed. You seem to do the first steps in > understanding German morphology, which might not be as complex as for Finnish > but it's certainly more complicated than in English. But the scary thing is that I haven't had any German lessons yet - this is all from listening and picking up words when I'm out and about in Munich. It's quite scary, most people can't do this! :o > I give everyone on the list 24 hours to start complaining ;-) Okay, it's a deal. ;) > >I'll have a go tomorrow then. :) > > It's Quicktime but in Cinepak format, whatever that means. I haven't tested > it yet as the download would take ages with my modem. Which is why I didn't want to check it out at home... > >Okay, your country sucks - and you smell of elderberries! Let me know if I'm > >wrong! > >;) > > Is "you smell of elderberries" a flame in English?? No, it's just part of a joke from one of the "Monty Pythons Flying Circus" episodes. At the time it amused me. And it continues to. "Your father smells of Yak piss - and your mother smells of elderberries"! > >Of course, I know this. Otherwise it'd be strange why you write things like > >"Blah blah blah - Winston Churchill". ;) > > Well, as you noted we are all strange people on the list ;-) This is true. It certainly wasn't conclusive evidence... ;) > >Guinness isn't a beer. It's a stout. I've no particular idea what the > >difference is, but if there are any Guinness drinkers on this list, you'll > >probably get flamed for calling it a beer. ;) > > According to my English-German dictionary "stout" means "Starkbier", which is > what you'll currently get in Munich. But there has to be some other > difference as well. Yes, there certainly is. I've had several types of Starkbier now and it's not the same. But, as I said, I don't know what Stout is exactly. I'm guessing the nearest equivalent that Germany has is Starkbier - which is why you found it in the dictionary. But it's not the same. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing. :) > >I hate it, by the way. Tastes like complete crap to me... > > Haven't tasted it yet, but it looks a bit like muddy water, and I heard that > the foam was similar to concrete... Indeed, and I believe it was used instead of cement to hold bricks together when buildings were made. ;) > Oh, I am a C programmer and I'm okay > I muck with indices and structs all day > And when it works, I shout hoo-ray > Oh, I am a C programmer and I'm okay Was this song written about me? :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:33:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01226 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:33:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F193C0.BCA3AC39@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Another time this? I think all agreed that 'dynamic recompiler' it's the name > > used and known everywhere by everybody for dynamic translation doesn't matter if > > it's a recompiler or a only a compiler. BTW has anyone done a real dynamic > > REcompiler? > Eh? I came up with a list of terms a few weeks ago and we all agreed. A > dynamic recompiler handles self-modifying code. A dynamic compiler doesn't. > If we want to come up with new terms, then great - but until then, I'm > correct and you're not. Nyarh! ;p Well, we haven't all committed your terms to memory. Dynamic recompiler is what I'll use until I have the brain power to commit (and agree with) your terms. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:36:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01247 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:36:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It doesn't matter really. Next time I will call dynamic compilation to all it, > > because you have to agree there is noone doing dynamic recompilation. > I thought that NBs could handle self-modifying code? Or, to change that, > *will* be able to. Not that I had planned, anyway. > sure that it'll be a Win32 emulator. We should be writing it so that it's > portable, yet fast. It needs a huge amount of function pointers, though. Oh > yes, and we're going to try and make it OOP with C++. Yes, we both love a > challenge. :) You can make anything object oriented in any language. C++ does not necessarily equal object oriented programming. C++ Has zero connection with it. Goddamn, I hate C++ for this very reason. And yes, I have plenty of experience with C++ and C. C++ Fucking sucks. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:37:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01260 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:37:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:37:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <000364e6ef7f4d44_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > So what for do I need a 1GHz processor when it's slowed down by the bus > bottleneck? To make your "internet experience better". I'm still not sure how it's actually done, though... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:38:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01277 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:38:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <000364e6fb0e7271_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >combined, pitched, ignored, reordered, etc... Having them tightly coupled > >is a huge advantage. > But I think it's still possible to reuse the code emitter for a different > target layer. The emitter (in my recompiler) is about 20 lines of code, so there's no need to create another layer. I think you mean the opcode generator, right? The one that generates the sOp structures? > >target that you'd want to support. But the "architecture" I've got allows > >you to share the atoms amongst multiple recompiler cores. The part that > >creates (from my example) an sOp. > Indeed, you'd have one code emitter per host platform and one source layer > for every emulated CPU. The only thing that needs to be rewritten during a > port is the target layer, right? Correct. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:41:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01289 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:41:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2C8EB.44F00046@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:40:43 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Well, we haven't all committed your terms to memory. Dynamic recompiler is > what I'll use until I have the brain power to commit (and agree with) your > terms. ;-) That sounds like exactly the sort of thing I wrote last night when I was tired. God, anyone would think you were doing too much work! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:43:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01298 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:43:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:43:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >It needs a huge amount of function pointers, though. Oh > > >yes, and we're going to try and make it OOP with C++. > > Fast and C++, isn't that an oxymoron? > Not quite, no. If all you're using are C++ class wrappers and constructors/destructors, that's like getting a bunch of porno mags, a jar of vaseline and your right hand and claiming you're ready for sex! ;-) > "overheads". Yes, there are some. But you can get around most of them if > you structure the code correctly. And make use of virtuals and pointers. If you have to tiptoe around the constructs of the language, what good is it? Write it in C and save yourself some hassle. And please *DO NOT* tell me you're using MFC! That's a bloated piece of garbage that was originally designed to ween people off of DOS to to Windows apps. > And we'll be compiling it with VC6 Enterprise Edition, so it should be > pretty fast. Besides, making use of things like DirectX is a little easier > in C++. As compared to C? Nope - Seeing how all the Microsoft press books on DirectX (Inside DirectX as an example) are *ALL* written in C. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:46:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01319 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:46:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:46:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >We've taken this into account too. I think too much is said about the > > >"overheads". Yes, there are some. But you can get around most of them if > > >you structure the code correctly. And make use of virtuals and pointers. > > If you are using pointers then it isn't clean C++... > So? I don't care. The use of OOP is good - especially for multi-platform > emulators. But you don't need C++ to do it. > And pointers are good. Admittedly they aren't so great for a > true OO design - but we both want speed as well. Not true. Object oriented programming is a *DESIGN* methodology - not what language or language constructs you use. You do know that C++ was originally a preprocessor to C, right? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:48:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01333 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2CA28.1FF42403@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:46:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I thought that NBs could handle self-modifying code? Or, to change that, > > *will* be able to. > > Not that I had planned, anyway. Really? Oh, I completely misunderstood. If this is the case, then *yes* - I definitely would like to join in to create the 68k core when you're ready. :) > > sure that it'll be a Win32 emulator. We should be writing it so that it's > > portable, yet fast. It needs a huge amount of function pointers, though. Oh > > yes, and we're going to try and make it OOP with C++. Yes, we both love a > > challenge. :) > > You can make anything object oriented in any language. C++ does not > necessarily equal object oriented programming. C++ Has zero connection > with it. Goddamn, I hate C++ for this very reason. Of course you *can* make anything OO in any language. C++ makes it easier for what we want to do though. And though I agree that you can make anything OO in just about any language, you can't always do things like inheritance - or having private or protected data. These are also things I intend to make use of. Thinking about it, can you make things OO in any language? That's quite a theoretical question, actually... > And yes, I have plenty of experience with C++ and C. C++ Fucking sucks. So do I. And yes, it sucks. But I hope you give me the credibility to actually give some thought to something before committing myself to a language! As I said earlier, C++ makes it easier for us to do what we want to do. That's why we're using it. If it didn't make things any easier, we wouldn't be using it. I'm not using it just for the sake of using it - just so I can say "Look - it's written in C++"! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:51:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01349 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2CAA0.10B6AE5C@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:48:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > So what for do I need a 1GHz processor when it's slowed down by the bus > > bottleneck? > > To make your "internet experience better". I'm still not sure how it's > actually done, though... First of all, we've got to discount marketing. They do, of course, tell the truth - so it must be something else. Maybe they include really fast ISDN cards inside the processors. It's Intels hidden feature! God, I'm really excited now! ;)) Actually, I suppose if you're coming from a P-90 then upgrading to a 1GHz processor probably would make your Internet experience better. You could actually scroll the webpage and have it be nice and smooth. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:54:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01358 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:54:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:54:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >Thanks. We're currently looking at the MAME source so that we know what we > > >SHOULDN'T do. > > Hehe, I bet so! > Well, that's what MAME is for, isn't it? :) A testament to this is the guy who is doing the CE port of MAME. A bit of history: I visited Microsoft in person in June of last year when I presented Retrocade in full Windows CE form - running at 75FPS with full sound - running Pacman. Single CPU emulation on a MIPS 4000. Some other guy (working on CE at Microsoft) did a MAME port that was running at 40FPS with *NO* sound with Pacman, and that was after he did hoards of optimization and cleaning a lot of stuff up. Still couldn't make full speed even without sound. There's this other guy who is doing a CE port currently who is far better off to write his own emulator for the platform, but is convinced that dynamic recompilation will actually help it. No chance in hell. The emulation of MAME tops at around 25FPS for Pacman and it's *AWFULLY* slow. So I have to ask - what is MAME doing that takes 3 times longer than Retrocade's core? I can imagine a 50% slowness, but *3X* slower?!?! > them - and they do produce some good stuff. I can understand the amount of > bugs in the software too - but I think that they shouldn't charge so much > for software they know has X amount of bugs... The problem with the 63000 number is: * Is that good or bad? * What are the categories of the bugs? * What other products on the market have the same level of functionality and how many bugs does *IT* have? We have no lithmus test to even judge what that number means, let alone claiming that they shouldn't charge "so much" for it. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 10 23:57:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01370 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:57:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F2CA28.1FF42403@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > I thought that NBs could handle self-modifying code? Or, to change that, > > > *will* be able to. > > Not that I had planned, anyway. > Really? Oh, I completely misunderstood. If this is the case, then *yes* - I > definitely would like to join in to create the 68k core when you're ready. > :) At that point I'll already have an opcode emitter (debugged) and a lot of the theory flattened out. > > You can make anything object oriented in any language. C++ does not > > necessarily equal object oriented programming. C++ Has zero connection > > with it. Goddamn, I hate C++ for this very reason. > Of course you *can* make anything OO in any language. C++ makes it easier > for what we want to do though. How does it make it "easier"? It just ads more bulk to the program. > And though I agree that you can make anything OO in just about any > language, you can't always do things like inheritance - or having private > or protected data. These are also things I intend to make use of. You can do protected data in C, too (static anyone). I also fail to see how inheritance would help you in emulation. > Thinking about it, can you make things OO in any language? That's quite a > theoretical question, actually... Of course you can. Object oriented programming means putting things in small, compartmentable, "black boxes" that allow simple, uniform, connectivity. Case in point - Our system management firmware at work is 100% object oriented (we designed it as a graphical layout first), and guess what? 100% C! > > And yes, I have plenty of experience with C++ and C. C++ Fucking sucks. > So do I. And yes, it sucks. But I hope you give me the credibility to > actually give some thought to something before committing myself to a > language! Well, you never know. ;-| If I was sitting across from a desk from you, I'd probably figure it out really fast. > As I said earlier, C++ makes it easier for us to do what we want > to do. That's why we're using it. If it didn't make things any easier, we > wouldn't be using it. I'm not using it just for the sake of using it - just > so I can say "Look - it's written in C++"! :) I still fail to see how any of it is made "easier". -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:01:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01393 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2CD29.840A443F@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:58:49 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > > Fast and C++, isn't that an oxymoron? > > Not quite, no. > > If all you're using are C++ class wrappers and constructors/destructors, > that's like getting a bunch of porno mags, a jar of vaseline and your > right hand and claiming you're ready for sex! ;-) True. But luckily we're not. Don't know about the porno ma... No, let's leave it. ;) > > "overheads". Yes, there are some. But you can get around most of them if > > you structure the code correctly. And make use of virtuals and pointers. > > If you have to tiptoe around the constructs of the language, what good is > it? Write it in C and save yourself some hassle. Yes, but we're not. I don't want to go into any great detail on how it works because we're only just approaching the end of the design stages. Though some parts are currently being implemented, these are definitely WIP and subject to change. > And please *DO NOT* tell me you're using MFC! That's a bloated piece of > garbage that was originally designed to ween people off of DOS to to > Windows apps. You and me have similar opinions on this. No, I'm not using MFC. I don't like it. See S3Tweak. A program I co-wrote - and it doesn't use it. Although... I do seem to remember that MFC is being used in it - but only for the GUI. As I've said, it's subject to change. At the moment it's only so we have something to work with. It can - and will, without doubt - be changed. > > And we'll be compiling it with VC6 Enterprise Edition, so it should be > > pretty fast. Besides, making use of things like DirectX is a little easier > > in C++. > > As compared to C? Nope - Seeing how all the Microsoft press books on > DirectX (Inside DirectX as an example) are *ALL* written in C. Yes, but there are classes available for DirectX usage which keeps things a whole lot nicer. Can you tell me one good reason why we shouldn't consider writing it in C++ ? I can give you many reasons why we should. But here is just one big reason for it: We can keep each arcade machine type as a class. We can keep each game as a class. As I said, I don't want to get into the internal workings of it just yet - especially not on a public mailing list. This is, after all, a WIP emulator which is only just beginning to be wrote. There are other reasons for keeping it all in classes too - but we won't see these reasons until we near completion. Which is, to be fair, a long way off. Given that it's April now, I wouldn't expect us to have anything working properly until September. I could be wrong, I'm just trying to be realistic. :) And, besides, no-one else has done it before. Whether that means it can't be done, I just don't know. But I doubt it. And if it works... good. And if it doesn't... it's not going to take too much work to go down to C. But I intend to make full use of any features available to me if I think that it makes things better. Okay, you don't like C++. But I'm not a C++ lover - I just intend to utilise anything that makes my life easier. I'm not using it just because I can... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:06:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01409 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:06:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2CE4F.95AC69DF@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:03:43 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > So? I don't care. The use of OOP is good - especially for multi-platform > > emulators. > > But you don't need C++ to do it. I know I don't. I have actually put some thought into it. There are reasons why we chose it. No, we don't NEED C++. But we have decided that it will make our lives easier. > > And pointers are good. Admittedly they aren't so great for a > > true OO design - but we both want speed as well. > > Not true. Object oriented programming is a *DESIGN* methodology - not what > language or language constructs you use. I know that - you can see that even from my last sentence: "aren't so great for a true OO design". Yes, OO is a methodology. And it's a methodology we intend to use. And take full advantage of. I'm not entirely sure what you've got against C++. Yes, people have used it badly before. But I would say that I've been using it for long enough now that I'm not going to make the same mistakes. I know techniques I can use to use OOP in C++ and still remain fast. It may not be quite as fast as a C program - but the only way to compare is to write two programs. And I'm not about to do that now. :) > You do know that C++ was originally a preprocessor to C, right? I didn't, but it doesn't change anything for me. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:10:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01421 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:10:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F2CD29.840A443F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > If you have to tiptoe around the constructs of the language, what good is > > it? Write it in C and save yourself some hassle. > Yes, but we're not. I don't want to go into any great detail on how it > works because we're only just approaching the end of the design stages. > Though some parts are currently being implemented, these are definitely WIP > and subject to change. Hehehehe. No project is ever finished. It's always a WIP. ;-) > > And please *DO NOT* tell me you're using MFC! That's a bloated piece of > > garbage that was originally designed to ween people off of DOS to to > > Windows apps. > You and me have similar opinions on this. No, I'm not using MFC. I don't > like it. See S3Tweak. A program I co-wrote - and it doesn't use it. When you visit the US (or I visit the UK), let's hold an MFC lynch mob burning rally, shall we? ;-) I can tell you a zillion horror stories about its memory leaks and memory overwrites. > Although... I do seem to remember that MFC is being used in it - but only > for the GUI. As I've said, it's subject to change. At the moment it's only > so we have something to work with. It can - and will, without doubt - be > changed. Eeeeewww...... Yuk. Use ATL instead! Just having the MFC DLL loaded ads an additional 2.4 megabytes of memory used. Yuck! > > > pretty fast. Besides, making use of things like DirectX is a little easier > > > in C++. > > As compared to C? Nope - Seeing how all the Microsoft press books on > > DirectX (Inside DirectX as an example) are *ALL* written in C. > Yes, but there are classes available for DirectX usage which keeps things a > whole lot nicer. I depends upon what you mean by "nicer". DirectX isn't all that heavy. > Can you tell me one good reason why we shouldn't consider writing it in C++ > ? Can you tell me one good reason why you *SHOULD* consider writing it in C++? I can't. > We can keep each arcade machine type as a class. We can keep each game as a > class. Make each arcade machine type a DLL. > And, besides, no-one else has done it before. Flatly not true. It was done 3 years ago with MageX (Edward Massey's multi-game emulator for Windows). It was also done with Brian Levine's emulator (forgot the name) two years ago. In fact, the original code I ported was C++ (ported it down to C). > Okay, you don't like C++. But I'm not a C++ lover - I just intend to > utilise anything that makes my life easier. I'm not using it just because I > can... I've had similar conversations with people about this. And in every instance to date I've seen people fall in love with the C++ constructs but after very, very close examination, it buys them *NOTHING*. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:21:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01436 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:21:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F2CE4F.95AC69DF@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > And pointers are good. Admittedly they aren't so great for a > > > true OO design - but we both want speed as well. > > Not true. Object oriented programming is a *DESIGN* methodology - not what > > language or language constructs you use. > I know that - you can see that even from my last sentence: "aren't so great > for a true OO design". Why aren't pointers so great for a true OO design? True OO design *DEMANDS* the use of pointers - even if they're hidden. > Yes, OO is a methodology. And it's a methodology we > intend to use. And take full advantage of. It's a great methodology. > I'm not entirely sure what > you've got against C++. Walk many footsteps in my shoes, my friend. ;-) For the past 5 years I've had to live with the legacy of people writing shitty, unmaintainable, C++ code just because it was fashionable or they were somehow smokescreened into believing it made their lives better. I've seen projects collapse under the weight of their own infrastructure because you get 50 people (of varying levels of experience) hacking on it. Abstraction becomes an irrational passion until the cogs make it run so slow it's a sluggish turd. C++ Is the devil spawn of Satan. It has *NO NEED* to exist. It does very, very little that C doesn't, and certainly doesn't do anything that C couldn't also accomplish. I also have my beefs with C (switch/case statements are screwed, some typechecking is flawed, etc...), too, but they are spread far and few between. > Yes, people have used it badly before. But I would > say that I've been using it for long enough now that I'm not going to make > the same mistakes. I know techniques I can use to use OOP in C++ and still > remain fast. It may not be quite as fast as a C program - but the only way > to compare is to write two programs. And I'm not about to do that now. :) I wouldn't imagine that you're write your CPU emulator in C++. That already has been a mistake. I know of two people who wrote C++ based CPU emulator cores and they were horridly slow - due to C++'s overhead. It will never, ever beat C. Take a look at the stack frame that the compiler sets up for C++ calls alone and that'll scare the living hell out of you. Or maybe it won't. ;-) But if you're going to use assembly cores for things, it won't matter much, because the C++ aspect of things is hardly used as compared to the CPU emulation time sink. > > You do know that C++ was originally a preprocessor to C, right? > I didn't, but it doesn't change anything for me. :) Damnit. They ought to force people to learn this before C++ compilers are handed out. Yes, indeed, C++ was a preprocessor to C. It's a similar concept to what's done with STL to Win32. C++ Was a processor that was designed to teach you how to think in an OO fashion. Now it's the fashion language of the 90's with far too many people who are clueless idiots about it who write bloated code and eat up all of our MIPS. Ever wonder why our apps run the same speed even though we have much faster processors, memory, and hard disks than we did 5 years ago? Because little Timmy out of college wanted to write an OO program and he used C++ to create his little MFC app, and took 2.4 megabytes to say "hello world" on the screen... But I'm not bitter... ;-) I've had far too many bad experiences with C++ to even consider using it in a serious project. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:24:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01445 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:24:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > We can keep each arcade machine type as a class. We can keep each game as a > > class. > Make each arcade machine type a DLL. FWIW, This is how Retrocade works. No DLL, but we have a "platform" and a "game". Platform is the platform type, like Namco System 1 (hence the name 'platform extension', adding a platform to Retrocade is extending it). "game" Is a specific ROMset and control set that uses a platform (Dragon Spirit, Galaga 88, etc...). Done with simple, orthogonal structures, entirely in C. Simple to use. Simple to read. Simple to extend. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:29:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01465 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:29:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2D2F6.CCF80486@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:23:34 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Really? Oh, I completely misunderstood. If this is the case, then *yes* - I > > definitely would like to join in to create the 68k core when you're ready. > > :) > > At that point I'll already have an opcode emitter (debugged) and a lot of > the theory flattened out. Which is very, very cool indeed. :) > > Of course you *can* make anything OO in any language. C++ makes it easier > > for what we want to do though. > > How does it make it "easier"? It just ads more bulk to the program. If you really want to know, I can forward you ~1MB of e-mails which you could read and find out. ;) > > And though I agree that you can make anything OO in just about any > > language, you can't always do things like inheritance - or having private > > or protected data. These are also things I intend to make use of. > > You can do protected data in C, too (static anyone). I also fail to see > how inheritance would help you in emulation. I didn't say inheritance would help in emulation. I was just talking about inheritance in general then. > > Thinking about it, can you make things OO in any language? That's quite a > > theoretical question, actually... > > Of course you can. Object oriented programming means putting things in > small, compartmentable, "black boxes" that allow simple, uniform, > connectivity. Think Prolog or Miranda. > Case in point - Our system management firmware at work is 100% object > oriented (we designed it as a graphical layout first), and guess what? > 100% C! I agree, it's easy to apply OO methodologies to most languages. I've done it myself. :) > > So do I. And yes, it sucks. But I hope you give me the credibility to > > actually give some thought to something before committing myself to a > > language! > > Well, you never know. ;-| If I was sitting across from a desk from you, > I'd probably figure it out really fast. That's true. But given that this has been discussed for just over 2 months now, I should hope that we've planned it out carefully. I've learnt from previous mistakes that plans should be made before the implementation. If it is planned carefully enough, you can see mistakes before they happen and work around them - or even fix them before they become mistakes. It's also a very good thing when two people are working on the same project. > > As I said earlier, C++ makes it easier for us to do what we want > > to do. That's why we're using it. If it didn't make things any easier, we > > wouldn't be using it. I'm not using it just for the sake of using it - just > > so I can say "Look - it's written in C++"! :) > > I still fail to see how any of it is made "easier". Because of the way we're writing it. We can design each system as a class and each game as a class. If we want to create a new system, we can do it very easily. If a game requires a special add-on to a machine, we can add it very easily. If we want to use multi-threading, we can do it easily. If we want to add a new machine, we can add it very easily. If we... no, don't want to give too much away... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:32:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01484 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:32:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:32:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F2D2F6.CCF80486@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > wouldn't be using it. I'm not using it just for the sake of using it - just > > > so I can say "Look - it's written in C++"! :) > > I still fail to see how any of it is made "easier". > Because of the way we're writing it. We can design each system as a class > and each game as a class. If we want to create a new system, we can do it > very easily. If a game requires a special add-on to a machine, we can add > it very easily. If we want to use multi-threading, we can do it easily. If > we want to add a new machine, we can add it very easily. If we... no, don't > want to give too much away... :) Oh come on, Neil. What you're describing isn't anything new. It has all been done before in both C++ and C code. It's not like you're harboring any huge secret. I have all of what you've got above in C and it's real clean, too. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:34:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01506 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:32:24 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Yes, but we're not. I don't want to go into any great detail on how it > > works because we're only just approaching the end of the design stages. > > Though some parts are currently being implemented, these are definitely WIP > > and subject to change. > > Hehehehe. No project is ever finished. It's always a WIP. ;-) That's true. But this project is barely started. :) > > You and me have similar opinions on this. No, I'm not using MFC. I don't > > like it. See S3Tweak. A program I co-wrote - and it doesn't use it. > > When you visit the US (or I visit the UK), let's hold an MFC lynch mob > burning rally, shall we? ;-) I can tell you a zillion horror stories about > its memory leaks and memory overwrites. Okay, that seems like a fair deal. :) I really don't like MFC - which the other guy (who still hasn't introduced himself!) knows because I told him in no uncertain terms. But as it will be used as a temporary measure. Mind you, I won't be using it. I refuse to. :) > > Although... I do seem to remember that MFC is being used in it - but only > > for the GUI. As I've said, it's subject to change. At the moment it's only > > so we have something to work with. It can - and will, without doubt - be > > changed. > > Eeeeewww...... Yuk. Use ATL instead! Just having the MFC DLL loaded ads an > additional 2.4 megabytes of memory used. Yuck! Really? I can use ATL. I actually did it direct (calling Windows functions directly) with S3Tweak, but I don't want to make things more difficult than necessary for this. This is ever so slightly a bigger project. :) I find that strange that it takes up an extra 2.4MB. Surely the whole point of DLLs is that you only load the functions you need? > > Yes, but there are classes available for DirectX usage which keeps things a > > whole lot nicer. > > I depends upon what you mean by "nicer". DirectX isn't all that heavy. Nicer = easier for me to maintain. > Can you tell me one good reason why you *SHOULD* consider writing it in > C++? I can't. I just did. Probably many times. ;) > > And, besides, no-one else has done it before. > > Flatly not true. It was done 3 years ago with MageX (Edward Massey's > multi-game emulator for Windows). It was also done with Brian Levine's > emulator (forgot the name) two years ago. In fact, the original code I > ported was C++ (ported it down to C). Multi-system (not game)? If so, I'll take that back. But I don't remember that. > > Okay, you don't like C++. But I'm not a C++ lover - I just intend to > > utilise anything that makes my life easier. I'm not using it just because I > > can... > > I've had similar conversations with people about this. And in every > instance to date I've seen people fall in love with the C++ constructs but > after very, very close examination, it buys them *NOTHING*. Yes, okay, I'll give you that. But I haven't fallen in love with C++. I use C a lot - I can do things quickly in it. But, in this case, I believe I can use it as a tool to help us get the thing done with a minimum of fuss - and effort. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:35:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01518 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:35:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:35:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: FWIW... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com There are 20 subscribed people to the Dynarec list. Also, my contract work has ended. I have too much free time, and I don't know what to do with myself. ;-) I'll sleep I think... unless you guys can get me really motivated! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:39:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01531 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:39:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Eeeeewww...... Yuk. Use ATL instead! Just having the MFC DLL loaded ads an > > additional 2.4 megabytes of memory used. Yuck! > Really? I can use ATL. I actually did it direct (calling Windows functions > directly) with S3Tweak, but I don't want to make things more difficult than > necessary for this. This is ever so slightly a bigger project. :) Sorry... STL - not ATL. ;-( What's S3Tweak? Some sort of DirectX bypass? > I find that strange that it takes up an extra 2.4MB. Surely the whole point > of DLLs is that you only load the functions you need? It loads the MSVC60.DLL (or whatever it's called). The DLL is atomic. Call one function, suck the whole DLL. Yeuck. > > > Yes, but there are classes available for DirectX usage which keeps things a > > > whole lot nicer. > > I depends upon what you mean by "nicer". DirectX isn't all that heavy. > Nicer = easier for me to maintain. > > > Can you tell me one good reason why you *SHOULD* consider writing it in > > C++? I can't. > I just did. Probably many times. ;) I didn't see any. > > > And, besides, no-one else has done it before. > > Flatly not true. It was done 3 years ago with MageX (Edward Massey's > > multi-game emulator for Windows). It was also done with Brian Levine's > > emulator (forgot the name) two years ago. In fact, the original code I > > ported was C++ (ported it down to C). > Multi-system (not game)? If so, I'll take that back. But I don't remember > that. Yes. MageX, from memory did: Sinistar, Galaga, Pacman, Space Invaders, Joust, a bunch of the Williams games, - about 50 in all. All different platforms. Remember that that was when arcade emulation was fairly young, so there weren't a lot of other games emulated. Brian Levine's emulator did 30+ of the same genre. So yes, you need to take that back. ;-) MageX Ran pretty well, but Brian's emulator was notably slower (but still not as slow as MAME at the time). > > I've had similar conversations with people about this. And in every > > instance to date I've seen people fall in love with the C++ constructs but > > after very, very close examination, it buys them *NOTHING*. > Yes, okay, I'll give you that. But I haven't fallen in love with C++. I use > C a lot - I can do things quickly in it. But, in this case, I believe I can > use it as a tool to help us get the thing done with a minimum of fuss - and > effort. :) Okay - but I just don't to see the wool being pulled over a smart guy's eyes. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 00:46:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01546 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:46:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... In-Reply-To: <38F2D2F6.CCF80486@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Because of the way we're writing it. We can design each system as a class > and each game as a class. If we want to create a new system, we can do it > very easily. If a game requires a special add-on to a machine, we can add > it very easily. If we want to use multi-threading, we can do it easily. If > we want to add a new machine, we can add it very easily. If we... no, don't > want to give too much away... :) Some words of wisdom from someone who has been where you're going. When dealing with CPU emulation specifically, multithreading will buy you little to nothing, and you're better off making processor emulation single threaded. Here's why. Most often when you've got CPUs talking to eachother, there's a bit of synchronization that goes on. I'll take Major Havoc as an example - if the slave CPU doesn't respond in 200 emulated microseconds, it'll think the sound processor has stopped responding and will reset it. Not only that, the slave CPU must give back a signal to the master CPU indicating that it has been acknowledged. In the case where they don't need to be synchronized, you'll hope that they don't both use the same CPU. If they use the same code and different data segments, you've now just caused an additional level of indirection to have to be coded into the CPU emulator. The CPUs in most games have to be interleaved very closely. Leaving them free run or even pacing them is tough to get right in a non-realtime OS. I fought with this for months - even with my own multiprocessor OS - to get the emulation to run better/faster, and the single threaded approach always won out in performance and accurate operability. However - Using separate threads to run video, sound, and controller input (which really should be message based anyway) is about the only way to do it IMHO. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 01:18:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01613 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2DF25.18AF08C@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:15:33 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > There are 20 subscribed people to the Dynarec list. So, we have about 5 active members. Who are you other 15, eh? ;) > Also, my contract work has ended. I have too much free time, and I don't > know what to do with myself. ;-) I'll sleep I think... unless you guys can > get me really motivated! Congratulations! So, you're going to get some sleep - and then you're going to finish the Z80 core. Aren't you. Aren't you, eh? Aren't you? ;) You will. You will, you know. Yes, you will. You have to. You have no choice. You will. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 01:18:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01621 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2DEC1.E03423C3@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:13:53 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Make each arcade machine type a DLL. > > FWIW, This is how Retrocade works. No DLL, but we have a "platform" and a > "game". Platform is the platform type, like Namco System 1 (hence the name > 'platform extension', adding a platform to Retrocade is extending it). > "game" Is a specific ROMset and control set that uses a platform (Dragon > Spirit, Galaga 88, etc...). > > Done with simple, orthogonal structures, entirely in C. Simple to use. > Simple to read. Simple to extend. Exactly the approach we're using - except we're using classes to do it. Same technique though. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 01:19:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01630 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:19:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2DF9F.F90595D@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:17:35 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Oh come on, Neil. What you're describing isn't anything new. It has all > been done before in both C++ and C code. It's not like you're harboring > any huge secret. I have all of what you've got above in C and it's real > clean, too. ;-) Actually, what we're planning hasn't been done before. Yes, I'll admit the techniques have been used before - but that's because we want to keep things simple. Apart from knowing that the emu will use a 68k core, does anyone know what it is? What it'll do? What it's emulating? No. I don't want to give too much away - partly because it's not my sole project but mainly because we don't need the pressure to get it finished. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 01:19:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01639 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:19:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2DE88.F23C30F0@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:12:56 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I know that - you can see that even from my last sentence: "aren't so great > > for a true OO design". > > Why aren't pointers so great for a true OO design? True OO design > *DEMANDS* the use of pointers - even if they're hidden. Okay, that's bad wording. Yes, pointers are required "behind the scenes" as it were. No, I was wrong to say that. > > Yes, OO is a methodology. And it's a methodology we > > intend to use. And take full advantage of. > > It's a great methodology. It is, yes. > > I'm not entirely sure what > > you've got against C++. > > Walk many footsteps in my shoes, my friend. ;-) For the past 5 years I've > had to live with the legacy of people writing shitty, unmaintainable, C++ > code just because it was fashionable or they were somehow smokescreened > into believing it made their lives better. Oh, okay, I'll forgive you. ;) If it makes you feel any better, can I say that the whole thing won't be OO? We won't be using classes in any place they're not needed. They're only being used in places where we think it'll make things easier. Otherwise we'll stick to C. > I've seen projects collapse under the weight of their own infrastructure > because you get 50 people (of varying levels of experience) hacking on it. > Abstraction becomes an irrational passion until the cogs make it run so > slow it's a sluggish turd. Yes - this is the one big problem of C++ - abstraction. Don't worry, we won't be using this. Too much, at least. > C++ Is the devil spawn of Satan. It has *NO NEED* to exist. It does very, > very little that C doesn't, and certainly doesn't do anything that C > couldn't also accomplish. Yes, I agree. That's the whole point, I guess. You can do it in C - C++ is just meant to take away some of that work. > I also have my beefs with C (switch/case statements are screwed, some > typechecking is flawed, etc...), too, but they are spread far and few > between. I have plenty of gripes with Ada - but that's the main language I don't like. Probably because I have to use it everyday. > I wouldn't imagine that you're write your CPU emulator in C++. That > already has been a mistake. I know of two people who wrote C++ based CPU > emulator cores and they were horridly slow - due to C++'s overhead. It > will never, ever beat C. Take a look at the stack frame that the compiler > sets up for C++ calls alone and that'll scare the living hell out of you. > Or maybe it won't. ;-) No, I do agree that it can generate horrible code. But you *can* get around it if you code sensibly. Which I'm intending to do. And no, I don't intend to do the CPU core in C++ because that seems really stupid to me. There's no point using it where it's not needed. > But if you're going to use assembly cores for things, it won't matter > much, because the C++ aspect of things is hardly used as compared to the > CPU emulation time sink. That's true. But anyway, I won't be using C++ for the CPU core. Too much hassle. > > > You do know that C++ was originally a preprocessor to C, right? > > I didn't, but it doesn't change anything for me. :) > > Damnit. They ought to force people to learn this before C++ compilers are > handed out. Yes, indeed, C++ was a preprocessor to C. It's a similar > concept to what's done with STL to Win32. C++ Was a processor that was > designed to teach you how to think in an OO fashion. Ah, right. No, didn't know that - but it does make sense. > Now it's the fashion language of the 90's with far too many people who are > clueless idiots about it who write bloated code and eat up all of our > MIPS. Ever wonder why our apps run the same speed even though we have much > faster processors, memory, and hard disks than we did 5 years ago? Because > little Timmy out of college wanted to write an OO program and he used C++ > to create his little MFC app, and took 2.4 megabytes to say "hello world" > on the screen... No, I haven't wondered that. I *know* damn well why our apps run the same speed (and even slower) - and I don't like it either. I'm not using it because it's a fashionable language to use. I didn't even know it was! A language is a tool and I think that in this case, C++ is the tool for the job. That - and a healthy dose of C as well. > But I'm not bitter... ;-) I've had far too many bad experiences with C++ > to even consider using it in a serious project. Who knows? Maybe I'll learn. But, for now, we'll see. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 01:24:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01657 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:24:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2E12C.85E9522D@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:24:12 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > There are 20 subscribed people to the Dynarec list. > So many? Where are they I have seen only 8 (aprox) :) > > Also, my contract work has ended. I have too much free time, and I don't > know what to do with myself. ;-) I'll sleep I think... unless you guys can > get me really motivated! > I suggest you go to sleep, it´s good for health and mind :) And I envy you because you have now time to sleep. But next week it´s holyday in Spain so I will sleep a lot too ;) About motivation, what do you want a fan club? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 01:28:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01674 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:28:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2E14D.E032BBC0@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:24:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Really? I can use ATL. I actually did it direct (calling Windows functions > > directly) with S3Tweak, but I don't want to make things more difficult than > > necessary for this. This is ever so slightly a bigger project. :) > > Sorry... STL - not ATL. ;-( What's S3Tweak? Some sort of DirectX bypass? I wondered what ATL was. :) S3Tweak is just a program for S3 card owners that lets them tweak the driver settings, overclock and do other miscellaneous stuff. Sits in the task bar and has a pop-up menu when you right-click it. Is about 145k when loaded - and that includes little icons. So that's pretty good, isn't it? :) > > I find that strange that it takes up an extra 2.4MB. Surely the whole point > > of DLLs is that you only load the functions you need? > > It loads the MSVC60.DLL (or whatever it's called). The DLL is atomic. Call > one function, suck the whole DLL. Yeuck. Yuck indeed! That's... not just horrible, but horribly stupid! > > > Can you tell me one good reason why you *SHOULD* consider writing it in > > > C++? I can't. > > I just did. Probably many times. ;) > > I didn't see any. Oh well. The way that we see it, it makes things easier. And if it doesn't, it's not going to be so difficult to port it back to C. You could moan if I wrote it in... ooh, I don't know... Java or Delphi. ;) > > Multi-system (not game)? If so, I'll take that back. But I don't remember > > that. > > Yes. MageX, from memory did: > > Sinistar, Galaga, Pacman, Space Invaders, Joust, a bunch of the Williams > games, - about 50 in all. All different platforms. Remember that that was > when arcade emulation was fairly young, so there weren't a lot of other > games emulated. > > Brian Levine's emulator did 30+ of the same genre. > > So yes, you need to take that back. ;-) MageX Ran pretty well, but Brian's > emulator was notably slower (but still not as slow as MAME at the time). Okay, I take that back. I do remember them... I'm trying to remember the name of Brians emulator, but I can't. I know I've been around from the start though. I remember the old sites like... Node99. Archaic Ruins. I'm trying to remember the others. I know I was emulating myself before it took off in a big way on the PC... Saddo that I am. :)) > > Yes, okay, I'll give you that. But I haven't fallen in love with C++. I use > > C a lot - I can do things quickly in it. But, in this case, I believe I can > > use it as a tool to help us get the thing done with a minimum of fuss - and > > effort. :) > > Okay - but I just don't to see the wool being pulled over a smart guy's > eyes. ;-) Nice to know you care. I love you too. ;) No, being serious, we will be using C as well. The OO is just to make certain things easier. Lots of things won't be OO - just some things will. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 01:30:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01696 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2E1C5.9021B4E5@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:26:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > When dealing with CPU emulation specifically, multithreading will buy you > little to nothing, and you're better off making processor emulation single > threaded. Here's why. --- Snipped very useful comments --- > I fought with this for months - even with my own multiprocessor OS - to > get the emulation to run better/faster, and the single threaded approach > always won out in performance and accurate operability. CPU core will be single threaded. I can't actually think of a good way to make it multi-threaded anyway! > However - Using separate threads to run video, sound, and controller input > (which really should be message based anyway) is about the only way to do > it IMHO. Indeed. These will be using seperate threads. And so will anything else we can usefully multi-thread. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 01:46:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01763 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:46:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2E643.2CB6CC74@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:45:55 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: SI project References: <38F2E1C5.9021B4E5@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Do you want to talk a bit about SI? First, disadvantatges I find on getting involved on this: 1) I have no real experience with emulators, I only have worked with theory 2) no Internet access at home 3) I think I´m good with CPU emulation, but graphics and sound are another thing 4) I have time at weekends but not the rest of the week 5) I can´t begin until two weeks later, next week is holyday 7) I really don´t know allegro 8) a lot of more I can´t just remember Advantages: 1) noone 2) there is a better solution? 3) I´m interested 4) This will give me some real experience and perhaps it would be useful to see what mistakes makes a newby. In fact I´m more interested in doing the 8080 core and later think about graphics and sound. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. 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You must put your email in the subject line otherwise our software won't recognize your remove request ***************************************************************** Thank You! ************* ************************** 87819 From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 02:24:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02019 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2EE73.22906CCF@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:20:51 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI project References: <38F2E1C5.9021B4E5@eurocopter.de> <38F2E643.2CB6CC74@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Do you want to talk a bit about SI? Sure, not a problem. > First, disadvantatges I find on getting involved on this: > > 1) I have no real experience with emulators, I only have worked with theory That's fine. In fact, that's probably more useful. > 2) no Internet access at home That could be a problem - it depends on how much you wanted to do. > 3) I think I´m good with CPU emulation, but graphics and sound are another > thing That's why we chose SI in the end - it's easy. :) > 4) I have time at weekends but not the rest of the week I don't even have that! > 5) I can´t begin until two weeks later, next week is holyday > 7) I really don´t know allegro So you're also a beginner. That could be a good thing, you know. > Advantages: > > 1) noone > 2) there is a better solution? > 3) I´m interested > 4) This will give me some real experience and perhaps it would be useful to > see > what mistakes makes a newby. > > In fact I´m more interested in doing the 8080 core and later think about > graphics and sound. If you want to do it, let me know and I'll let Mul8 know. I realise the problems (I also thought the same way) but if you have some interest in it then that's good. I have interest, but I have a rather major lack of time. And I want to work on dynarec for the time being. :) Whatever, I'll still be around to help. I just can't be in control of it all. I'm sure the other people like NB will also help out. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 02:40:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02058 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:40:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2F2B9.D8F962D0@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:39:05 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI project References: <38F2E1C5.9021B4E5@eurocopter.de> <38F2E643.2CB6CC74@est.fib.upc.es> <38F2EE73.22906CCF@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > > 2) no Internet access at home > > That could be a problem - it depends on how much you wanted to do. > Implement code, write documents and try to answer some questions. I think if there are a lot of questions the better way is other people in Mul8 list, with more experience and better Internet access, helps answering them. > > > 5) I can´t begin until two weeks later, next week is holyday > > 7) I really don´t know allegro > > So you're also a beginner. That could be a good thing, you know. > Yes, anybody will know what a bad programmer I am :) and then they will realize how easy is an emulator. > If you want to do it, let me know and I'll let Mul8 know. I realise the > problems (I also thought the same way) but if you have some interest in it > then that's good. I have interest, but I have a rather major lack of time. > And I want to work on dynarec for the time being. :) > > Whatever, I'll still be around to help. I just can't be in control of it > all. I'm sure the other people like NB will also help out. I think first I need to do some study of the question, work a bit about how the emulator will be implemented, try to write some lessons (I like more writing documents than code :o) and search some info about SI and 8080 processor. I also want you explain a bit how you planned to do the project and discuss a bit here how I will implement it. For example I have thought in writing a kind of document/lesson explaining something about the emulator, then write some of the code and let the people to write themselves the rest of the code (for example I implement a general opcode function and then all other are implemented by people). I have thought in a lesson each week, but it depends upon how finally goes all. The main problem it´s I don´t know how many people it´s interested and what they will do or they want to do. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 04:15:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA02250 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F2C4F0.42B6BC@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000364fa6abb7d28_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> <000364ea96102809_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F20235.8C7AC029@eurocopter.de> <000364ed1c947a03_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <003201bfa335$efb25820$0100a8c0@lion> <000364ef30cfa6d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F2C4F0.42B6BC@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:13:45 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Really? That's... surprising. I'd have thought that EVERYONE would have >used VB by now - in one of its forms... Ah, forgot about it. I once programmed a bit VB for ASP. >But the scary thing is that I haven't had any German lessons yet - this is >all from listening and picking up words when I'm out and about in Munich. >It's quite scary, most people can't do this! :o I think I could do that. I actually talked to someone with a strong Munich accent on the phone and needed at least 5 minutes to understand more than 50% of what he was saying ;-) >No, it's just part of a joke from one of the "Monty Pythons Flying Circus" >episodes. At the time it amused me. And it continues to. "Your father >smells of Yak piss - and your mother smells of elderberries"! Which episode was that? >Yes, there certainly is. I've had several types of Starkbier now and it's >not the same. But, as I said, I don't know what Stout is exactly. I'm >guessing the nearest equivalent that Germany has is Starkbier - which is >why you found it in the dictionary. But it's not the same. Which, in my >opinion, is a good thing. :) So you enjoy the Starkbier? ;-) >Indeed, and I believe it was used instead of cement to hold bricks together >when buildings were made. ;) Hehe. >> Oh, I am a C programmer and I'm okay >> I muck with indices and structs all day >> And when it works, I shout hoo-ray >> Oh, I am a C programmer and I'm okay >Was this song written about me? :o I'm not sure... BTW, is that to the tune of "I'm a lumberjack"? -- M.I.Ke To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. -- Thomas Edison --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 04:15:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA02259 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:15:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <000364fa6d984c2a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:14:33 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> So what for do I need a 1GHz processor when it's slowed down by the bus >> bottleneck? >To make your "internet experience better". I'm still not sure how it's >actually done, though... Maybe by ISSE? ;-) -- M.I.Ke Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody is looking -- H. L. Mencken --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 05:12:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02387 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F315FD.D8569A68@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:09:33 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1D7D2.40158C3@eurocopter.de> <000364e8c051ed96_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1EFBF.A042725B@eurocopter.de> <000364ea96102809_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F20235.8C7AC029@eurocopter.de> <000364ed1c947a03_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <003201bfa335$efb25820$0100a8c0@lion> <000364ef30cfa6d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F2C4F0.42B6BC@eurocopter.de> <000364fa6abb7d28_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I think I could do that. I actually talked to someone with a strong Munich > accent on the phone and needed at least 5 minutes to understand more than 50% > of what he was saying ;-) I have the same problem with people from Munich - or anywhere in Bavaria. I just can't understand them! I have had problems with Austrians as well. :o > >No, it's just part of a joke from one of the "Monty Pythons Flying Circus" > >episodes. At the time it amused me. And it continues to. "Your father > >smells of Yak piss - and your mother smells of elderberries"! > > Which episode was that? Can't remember. One of them. I've got the scene in MP3 format if you're interested... > >Yes, there certainly is. I've had several types of Starkbier now and it's > >not the same. But, as I said, I don't know what Stout is exactly. I'm > >guessing the nearest equivalent that Germany has is Starkbier - which is > >why you found it in the dictionary. But it's not the same. Which, in my > >opinion, is a good thing. :) > > So you enjoy the Starkbier? ;-) I do, actually! It's nowhere near as horrible as Guinness. :) > >Was this song written about me? :o > > I'm not sure... It could have been... ;) > BTW, is that to the tune of "I'm a lumberjack"? I think so, yes. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 05:12:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02396 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:12:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F31581.2EDFEB34@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:07:29 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI project References: <38F2E1C5.9021B4E5@eurocopter.de> <38F2E643.2CB6CC74@est.fib.upc.es> <38F2EE73.22906CCF@eurocopter.de> <38F2F2B9.D8F962D0@est.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Implement code, write documents and try to answer some questions. I think if there > are a lot of questions the better way is other people in Mul8 list, with more experience > and better Internet access, helps answering them. Absolutely. But this is the great thing about the project taking place over a mailing list - you get lots of input! > > So you're also a beginner. That could be a good thing, you know. > > Yes, anybody will know what a bad programmer I am :) and then they will realize how > easy is an emulator. Maybe, but that wasn't the answer I was looking for. :) I was thinking that if you are a beginner, you'll also know what the problems are. > > Whatever, I'll still be around to help. I just can't be in control of it > > all. I'm sure the other people like NB will also help out. > > I think first I need to do some study of the question, work a bit about how the > emulator will be implemented, try to write some lessons (I like more writing documents > than code :o) and search some info about SI and 8080 processor. That's exactly what I was doing - and putting it all into a webpage. However, that plan didn't happen. > I also want you explain a bit how you planned to do the project and discuss a bit > here how I will implement it. I planned it to happen like this: I would say "We need to implement this" and maybe give a small piece of code. Then the others could expand on that until it was finished. > For example I have thought in writing a kind of document/lesson explaining something > about the emulator, then write some of the code and let the people to write themselves the > rest of the code (for example I implement a general opcode function and then all other are > implemented by people). I have thought in a lesson each week, but it depends upon how finally > goes all. The main problem it´s I don´t know how many people it´s interested and what they will do > or they want to do. That's the problem - but if you document the process then you have a pretty cool tutorial already written up! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 05:47:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02455 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004111248.OAA10622@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI project In-Reply-To: <38F31581.2EDFEB34@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 11, 2000 02:07:29 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:48:22 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > Implement code, write documents and try to answer some questions. I think if there > > are a lot of questions the better way is other people in Mul8 list, with more experience > > and better Internet access, helps answering them. > > Absolutely. But this is the great thing about the project taking place over > a mailing list - you get lots of input! > Yes, you say you will do some work and then this work is all done by other people ;) > > > So you're also a beginner. That could be a good thing, you know. > > > > Yes, anybody will know what a bad programmer I am :) and then they will realize how > > easy is an emulator. > > Maybe, but that wasn't the answer I was looking for. :) > > I was thinking that if you are a beginner, you'll also know what the > problems are. > Yes I thought something similar. The problem it's I'm not the usual beginner. > That's exactly what I was doing - and putting it all into a webpage. > However, that plan didn't happen. > A webpage, what an interesting idea. But I can't mantein a webpage, perhaps I will look for someone who wants, I have to ask a friend. > > I also want you explain a bit how you planned to do the project and discuss a bit > > here how I will implement it. > > I planned it to happen like this: > > I would say "We need to implement this" and maybe give a small piece of > code. Then the others could expand on that until it was finished. > Hehe. The hard work for beginners the glory for the chief ;) > That's the problem - but if you document the process then you have a pretty > cool tutorial already written up! > Written in something than resembles english :) Do you have some information about SI, or do you know were I can get some information? This weekend I took a look at INVZ and a bit to the mame driver, but I think I need some more information. About the 8080 I think I will find enough information and as it's a old and simple version of Z80 will be easy for me. I have studied a lot Z80, and started to write an assembler core for it, don't finished though, in fact the only thing I did was write some code on paper and then rewrite it to a file. But I didn't tested nothing although I implemented all standard opcode (not extended opcodes). This time the core will be in C I supose, more easy for teaching, but I like more assembler. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 07:13:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA02658 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004111417.QAA22178@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Apr 11, 2000 00:35:07 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:17:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > There are 20 subscribed people to the Dynarec list. > > Also, my contract work has ended. I have too much free time, and I don't > know what to do with myself. ;-) I'll sleep I think... unless you guys can > get me really motivated! > Last mail was just a joke. I will show you tomorrow something I'm working on although it isn't finished. We will see what do you think about it, then. In any case what you have to do is what you really want, of course. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 11:15:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03436 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:15:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:15:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... In-Reply-To: <38F2E12C.85E9522D@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > About motivation, what do you want a fan club? Sure! With dancing girls with big hooters. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 11:21:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03484 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:21:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <00036500660e01cb_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:21:56 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Have you seen this list? http://www.emucamp.com/frames.html?/articles/top100/index.html I don't know two of the emulators in the top 10, some emulators are much too high, and others much too low. Who thinks that MAME is this good while Retrocade is only in the middle?!? -- M.I.Ke Stay away from hurricanes for a while. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 11:21:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03492 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:21:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003650013fd8075_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:58:59 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >There are 20 subscribed people to the Dynarec list. Are you kidding? Ok, we have us 4 hardcore guys and some occasional posters (forgot the exact amount), but that means that over 50% are lurkers! >Also, my contract work has ended. I have too much free time, and I don't >know what to do with myself. ;-) I'll sleep I think... Ok, get some rest then you can have a fresh start ;-) >unless you guys can get me really motivated! Please Neil, continue your great work to enlighten us unimportant creatures with the best dynarec in existence! How was that? ;-) -- M.I.Ke Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 11:21:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03501 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <000364fffbcb3b1f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:52:13 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I also have my beefs with C (switch/case statements are screwed, some >typechecking is flawed, etc...), too, but they are spread far and few >between. One nice bug is also when you forget the semicolon after a structure since you'll get a strange error somewhere else... But I agree that most C bugs are well-know now and if you don't use too much macros you'll understand new C code better than C++ where you first have to find out what class hirarchy the programmer used and what methods are available. >I wouldn't imagine that you're write your CPU emulator in C++. That >already has been a mistake. I know of two people who wrote C++ based CPU >emulator cores and they were horridly slow - due to C++'s overhead. It >will never, ever beat C. I think Stella is written in C++ and it needs a really fast machine given the fact that it only emulates a 6507, although the biggest problem will be the graphics emulation. >Take a look at the stack frame that the compiler >sets up for C++ calls alone and that'll scare the living hell out of you. Not to forget the class descriptors and method tables that have to be copied, and when you have multiple inheritation it gets *really messy*! >Or maybe it won't. ;-) Most programmers won't know what's going on since they won't be able to find "their" code in all that overhead... >Now it's the fashion language of the 90's with far too many people who are >clueless idiots about it who write bloated code and eat up all of our >MIPS. Ever wonder why our apps run the same speed even though we have much >faster processors, memory, and hard disks than we did 5 years ago? Because >little Timmy out of college wanted to write an OO program and he used C++ >to create his little MFC app, and took 2.4 megabytes to say "hello world" >on the screen... Too true! :-( -- M.I.Ke If you think the United States has stood still, who built the largest shopping center in the world? -- Richard M. Nixon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 11:26:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03521 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:26:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <00036500660e01cb_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Have you seen this list? > http://www.emucamp.com/frames.html?/articles/top100/index.html > I don't know two of the emulators in the top 10, some emulators are much too > high, and others much too low. Who thinks that MAME is this good while > Retrocade is only in the middle?!? # Of games emulated. People care about quantity and not quality. Plus, Retrocade hasn't had a release since May of last year so it kinda went out of the public limelight. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 11:56:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03643 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:56:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:06:55 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Neil Bradley wrote: > > Have you seen this list? > > http://www.emucamp.com/frames.html?/articles/top100/index.html > > I don't know two of the emulators in the top 10, some emulators are much too > > high, and others much too low. Who thinks that MAME is this good while > > Retrocade is only in the middle?!? > > # Of games emulated. People care about quantity and not quality. Plus, > Retrocade hasn't had a release since May of last year so it kinda went out > of the public limelight. IMHO the list is a complete joke. First, "best" emulator is not really a valid concept as there's no real way to compare emulator A that emulates say, the SNES, and emulator B that emulates the 2600. On the arcade side, MAME gets points from the sheer number of games it emulates, even if it is slow as all hell and an excellent example of how not to design something. For SNES, well, zsnes and snes9x are about equal, mostly because the authors tended to share information. N64, UltraHLE (nemu64 as well?) is HLE, and not a real emulator. As for NES, nesticle is nowhere near the best. While it did show the general populace that they didn't have to put up with Marat's pile of shit, it is no longer an example of decent emulation. AFAIK, the most accurate NES emulators at the moment are NESten, and loopynes. FCE Ultra might be in there somewhere. None of them are quite perfect yet. About the other 50 on the list I have never heard of... > -->Neil John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 12:26:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03808 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003650151a05453_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:27:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >IMHO the list is a complete joke. First, "best" emulator is not really a >valid concept as there's no real way to compare emulator A that emulates >say, the SNES, and emulator B that emulates the 2600. Correct. >On the arcade side, MAME gets points from the sheer number of games it >emulates, even if it is slow as all hell and an excellent example of how >not to design something. Indeed, and don't even think that it achieves good emulation. >For SNES, well, zsnes and snes9x are about equal, mostly because the >authors tended to share information. I always liked Snes9X more, maybe because it's available on so many systems. >N64, UltraHLE (nemu64 as well?) is HLE, and not a real emulator. The more complex the emulated systems get the more HLE will be used since it's no longer possible to emulate every little piece of hardware and the programs won't be that low-level anymore that you really had to do it. For me HLE is also emualtion as long as it acompanies a decent emulation, which is the case for Nemu64 but not for UltraHLE IMHO. >As for NES, nesticle is nowhere near the best. While it did show the >general populace that they didn't have to put up with Marat's pile of >shit, it is no longer an example of decent emulation. I think Nesticle should be remembered as the emulator that started the avalanche of NES emulators we have today, but it simply isn't state of the art anymore. >AFAIK, the most >accurate NES emulators at the moment are NESten, and loopynes. FCE Ultra >might be in there somewhere. None of them are quite perfect yet. I think JNes has the best NES sound emulation I heard so far, but I haven't tested the lastest NESten versions. >About the other 50 on the list I have never heard of... I'm not sure if it's that much in my case but I was surprised that I don't know two out of the top 10! -- M.I.Ke "I have a very firm grasp on reality! I can reach out and strangle it any time!" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 12:39:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03858 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:49:57 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <0003650151a05453_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Michael Koenig wrote: > >For SNES, well, zsnes and snes9x are about equal, mostly because the > >authors tended to share information. > > I always liked Snes9X more, maybe because it's available on so many systems. Heh, past a general overview I have no real opinion about zsnes, as it doesn't run under my primary OS =) > >N64, UltraHLE (nemu64 as well?) is HLE, and not a real emulator. > > The more complex the emulated systems get the more HLE will be used since > it's no longer possible to emulate every little piece of hardware and the > programs won't be that low-level anymore that you really had to do it. > For me HLE is also emualtion as long as it acompanies a decent emulation, > which is the case for Nemu64 but not for UltraHLE IMHO. Point, but there's HLE and then there's UltraHLE. Hacking something for every single game to get added is no way to write a (decent) emulator... > I think Nesticle should be remembered as the emulator that started the > avalanche of NES emulators we have today, but it simply isn't state of the > art anymore. So very true, though I've heard it's debugger can be handy... > I think JNes has the best NES sound emulation I heard so far, but I haven't > tested the lastest NESten versions. I haven't seen Jabo on efnet in a fairly long time. The things about NES sound that are left at the moment (AFAIK) are incomplete, incorrect, or nonexistant documentation on the pulse sweeps, and some synthesis and generation issues dealing with the noise channel (samplerate of about 400KHz...) The documentation issue will be resolved whenever Kevin Horton gets around to finishing the RE... John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 13:13:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03982 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:13:56 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Heh, past a general overview I have no real opinion about zsnes, as it >doesn't run under my primary OS =) Linux? My current primary OS is BeOS... >Point, but there's HLE and then there's UltraHLE. Hacking something for >every single game to get added is no way to write a (decent) emulator... True. It's a bit strange when an emulator can run a few comercial games but is unable to get some simple demos right. >I haven't seen Jabo on efnet in a fairly long time. The things about NES >sound that are left at the moment (AFAIK) are incomplete, incorrect, or >nonexistant documentation on the pulse sweeps, and some synthesis and >generation issues dealing with the noise channel (samplerate of about >400KHz...) The documentation issue will be resolved whenever Kevin Horton >gets around to finishing the RE... I don't know that much about NES emulation, but in JNes I got some digitized speech (in Karate Champ eg.) which I haven't heard in any other emulator. What I also don't like about the list is that great computer emulators like VICE or Basilisk are rather low on the list :-( It seems that most guys only want to play the newest games... Not much nostalgia left :-( -- M.I.Ke Save energy: be apathetic. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 15:54:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04659 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:32:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > Yes, but we're not. I don't want to go into any great detail on how it > > > works because we're only just approaching the end of the design stages. > > > Though some parts are currently being implemented, these are definitely WIP > > > and subject to change. > > > > Hehehehe. No project is ever finished. It's always a WIP. ;-) > > That's true. But this project is barely started. :) > > > > You and me have similar opinions on this. No, I'm not using MFC. I don't > > > like it. See S3Tweak. A program I co-wrote - and it doesn't use it. > > > > When you visit the US (or I visit the UK), let's hold an MFC lynch mob > > burning rally, shall we? ;-) I can tell you a zillion horror stories about > > its memory leaks and memory overwrites. > > Okay, that seems like a fair deal. :) > > I really don't like MFC - which the other guy (who still hasn't introduced > himself!) knows because I told him in no uncertain terms. But as it will be > used as a temporary measure. Mind you, I won't be using it. I refuse to. :) *cough* It isn't using MFC, though. I decided that MFC made it far to difficult to get at the fun stuff and, as t'other Neil mentioned, takes up a ton of memory. The current code uses a very un-OO, dull looking, C style, common controls based Gui, and is intended to stay that way. Erm... hello everyone, by the way! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 17:56:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA05207 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> Message-Id: <00036505edd39554_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:57:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Erm... hello everyone, by the way! Ah, another lurker demasked ;-) BTW, your email address rang a bell and after a check I noticed that my organic computer fetched the right data: So you are the author of SpectrEm- Dr, right? Well, it could be really interesting for you when NB finally finishes his Z80 dynarec ;-) -- M.I.Ke Telephone, n.: An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance. -- Ambrose Bierce --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 23:29:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06190 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F41756.E75DFB30@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:27:34 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <000364fffbcb3b1f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > One nice bug is also when you forget the semicolon after a structure since > you'll get a strange error somewhere else... Yes, I've encountered this - but I think this depends on the actual compiler itself. > But I agree that most C bugs are well-know now and if you don't use too much > macros you'll understand new C code better than C++ where you first have to > find out what class hirarchy the programmer used and what methods are > available. If you have to figure out a class hierarchy then the programmer was crap. You should only ever interface with one class and you shouldn't need to know about the class hierarchy - ever. > >Take a look at the stack frame that the compiler > >sets up for C++ calls alone and that'll scare the living hell out of you. > > Not to forget the class descriptors and method tables that have to be copied, > and when you have multiple inheritation it gets *really messy*! Yes, it can do. But if you make clever use of function pointers and especially clever use of virtual functions, then it's not so much. It gets messy if you don't take care. Admittedly, the programmer shouldn't *need* to take care, but I guess people get used to it. And they shouldn't. > >Or maybe it won't. ;-) > > Most programmers won't know what's going on since they won't be able to find > "their" code in all that overhead... Hmm. The "overhead" depends on the compiler used - most overhead is at the start of the program. I'll agree that there is too much in the middle of the code - but again, think cleverly and it is reduced. > >Now it's the fashion language of the 90's with far too many people who are > >clueless idiots about it who write bloated code and eat up all of our > >MIPS. Ever wonder why our apps run the same speed even though we have much > >faster processors, memory, and hard disks than we did 5 years ago? Because > >little Timmy out of college wanted to write an OO program and he used C++ > >to create his little MFC app, and took 2.4 megabytes to say "hello world" > >on the screen... > > Too true! :-( Although I thought Java was the fashion language of the 90's now - but there we go. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 23:30:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06202 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:30:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F417C2.34A89011@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:29:22 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: <200004111417.QAA22178@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F2BC214D90F24BCD655DE7BA" Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F2BC214D90F24BCD655DE7BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Victor Moya del Barrio wrote: > I will show you tomorrow something I'm working on although it isn't finished. > We will see what do you think about it, then. > OK, not really impresive or new. 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Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 23:30:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06211 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:30:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:28:18 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > About motivation, what do you want a fan club? > > Sure! With dancing girls with big hooters. ;-) If you want to pay for it, I can arrange it. It's very, very possible here in Germany. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 23:33:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06224 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F417C1.D599B498@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:29:21 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Have you seen this list? > > http://www.emucamp.com/frames.html?/articles/top100/index.html > > I don't know two of the emulators in the top 10, some emulators are much too > > high, and others much too low. Who thinks that MAME is this good while > > Retrocade is only in the middle?!? > > # Of games emulated. People care about quantity and not quality. Plus, > Retrocade hasn't had a release since May of last year so it kinda went out > of the public limelight. Yes, I agree that this is the way things are going. I'll personally pick quality over quantity any day. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 23:34:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06233 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:34:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:34:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... In-Reply-To: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > About motivation, what do you want a fan club? > > Sure! With dancing girls with big hooters. ;-) > If you want to pay for it, I can arrange it. It's very, very possible here > in Germany. ;) To really, really motivate me, find me a nice photo of a brown eyed brunette with perfect boobs. Not huge ones, not small ones, but natural looking "nurse me" boobs... that'll motivate me! I just got done having marathon sex so I've only got one thing on my mind... ;p -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 23:36:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06249 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:36:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:33:57 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, And I'd like to introduce... the other guy. :) > *cough* Very good, Mr. Davidson. You can put your trousers back up now. ;) > It isn't using MFC, though. I decided that MFC made it far to difficult to > get at the fun stuff and, as t'other Neil mentioned, takes up a ton of > memory. The current code uses a very un-OO, dull looking, C style, common > controls based Gui, and is intended to stay that way. Isn't it? Erm, oops. That shows how deep I looked into the GUI code, doesn't it? :o Okay, NB, you can be happy (or happier) now. We're not using MFC. :) > Erm... hello everyone, by the way! Haha! I knew talking about this would draw you out of the shadows. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 23:42:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06265 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F419D4.36573B8@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:38:12 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > To really, really motivate me, find me a nice photo of a brown eyed > brunette with perfect boobs. Not huge ones, not small ones, but natural > looking "nurse me" boobs... that'll motivate me! Erm... sort of Jennifer Aniston or Courtney Cox style? Or are you thinking Jenny McCarthy style (she's dyed her hair)? > I just got done having marathon sex so I've only got one thing on my > mind... ;p ...and you're using your computer? Go back! Go back, I say! Back! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 11 23:46:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06281 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:46:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... In-Reply-To: <38F419D4.36573B8@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > brunette with perfect boobs. Not huge ones, not small ones, but natural > > looking "nurse me" boobs... that'll motivate me! > Erm... sort of Jennifer Aniston or Courtney Cox style? Or are you thinking > Jenny McCarthy style (she's dyed her hair)? Jennifer Aniston - most definitely. Courtney Cox is too thin for me. Jenny McCarthy is well, not quite it. More along the lines of Jeanne Tripplehorn. ;-) > > I just got done having marathon sex so I've only got one thing on my > > mind... ;p > ...and you're using your computer? Go back! Go back, I say! Back! ;) She's tired and fell asleep. I'm using the computer now... heheheheheh... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 00:17:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06370 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F42273.667485BB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:14:59 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Erm... sort of Jennifer Aniston or Courtney Cox style? Or are you thinking > > Jenny McCarthy style (she's dyed her hair)? > > Jennifer Aniston - most definitely. Me too. :) > Courtney Cox is too thin for me. Yes, I find that a bit of a turnoff. > Jenny McCarthy is well, not quite it. I quite like her now she has dark hair. :) > More along the lines of Jeanne Tripplehorn. ;-) Nope, no idea who that is. > > ...and you're using your computer? Go back! Go back, I say! Back! ;) > > She's tired and fell asleep. I'm using the computer now... heheheheheh... You see, if that happens, you should find somewhere that *isn't* on the bed. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 00:22:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06382 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:22:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:19:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > What I also don't like about the list is that great computer emulators like > VICE or Basilisk are rather low on the list :-( I'm not so interested in Macintosh emulation (there's only one game I ever enjoyed for the Macintosh - Bolo), but C64, Spectrum and *especially* CPC emulation is what I like when I do computer emulation. And that's bad that they're so low... :-/ > It seems that most guys only want to play the newest games... > Not much nostalgia left :-( There's no nostalgia anymore. The only nostalgia you'll find these days is with the people who were in the emu 'scene' from the beginning. There we go, a new topic. What happened to the emu scene? When did it all change for, what I think is, the worse? My personal opinion is that it started to go wrong with Callus. I'm not blaming Sardu for that emulator, I think it's an amazing piece of code. But the games were pretty new and very popular and attracted a lot of attention. The other possibility is with Genesis and SNES emulation. But... what do you all think? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 00:32:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06408 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F425AE.E7EAA197@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:28:46 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: <0003650151a05453_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >N64, UltraHLE (nemu64 as well?) is HLE, and not a real emulator. > > The more complex the emulated systems get the more HLE will be used since > it's no longer possible to emulate every little piece of hardware and the > programs won't be that low-level anymore that you really had to do it. > For me HLE is also emualtion as long as it acompanies a decent emulation, > which is the case for Nemu64 but not for UltraHLE IMHO. And if you're going to claim that, you've got to think about sound emulation. For example, what about sound emulation with the NES or SNES? You can't claim that to be "true" emulation if you think that. That's a topic we could start, but I don't want to. I want to get my work finished today. :) > I'm not sure if it's that much in my case but I was surprised that I don't > know two out of the top 10! I remember NeoDanji as the first NeoGeo emulator - it emulated that NAM game thing. I know there was one I didn't know, though - and that's bad. I just can't believe the lack of old computers and consoles. Also, if memory serves me correctly, MAME wasn't #1 - was it? If not, that's even worse. Okay, I don't think it's the "best" emulator - but it does emulate a whole load of nostalgic games for me. Top 10 is fair enough, but I'd have to put Retrocade in there. Hmm, my top 10 would look something like: 1) Raine 2) MAME (it plays Bubble Bobble, okay?) 3) Retrocade 4) ZSNES 5) SNES9X 6) KGEN 7) Oh, choose any CPC emulator - No$CPC 8) Choose any C64 emulator - CC64S 9) Any speccy emulator 10) Erm... Callus Although number 10 is dodgy as I don't normally use that anymore. Oh, okay: 10) NeoRAGE-X I use that more... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 00:40:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06428 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:40:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004120742.JAA19323@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 12, 2000 09:19:19 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:42:22 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It seems that most guys only want to play the newest games... > > Not much nostalgia left :-( > > There's no nostalgia anymore. The only nostalgia you'll find these days is > with the people who were in the emu 'scene' from the beginning. > Now people wants to play N64 and Play Station games on their PCs. But this is because emulation scene has grown a lot. Now emulators aren't underground, they have become in a another part of the warez and piracy scene. When something becomes popular the average people who follows it becomes worst. > My personal opinion is that it started to go wrong with Callus. I'm not > blaming Sardu for that emulator, I think it's an amazing piece of code. But > the games were pretty new and very popular and attracted a lot of > attention. > Perhaps. I like Callus because is a really fast emulator with a great compatibility (it's almost work without sound in my old 486) and I think Sardu it's one of the best emulator authors. > The other possibility is with Genesis and SNES emulation. But... what do > you all think? > In fact my interest in emulation systems is limited, for example most of the first computers don't interest me (like Spectrum or C64) with the exception of course of the great MSX. Either the arcade systems. What I really like are all old Japanese consoles and those impressive Japanase games I never couldn't try when I was young. Why does people like emulation? They can play games from their old computers, so nostalgia. They can play games they couldn't play when they were released, so curiosity. They can play games that haven't been ported to their system (PC), so piracy. And perhaps some more. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 00:52:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06453 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:03:11 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F425AE.E7EAA197@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Neil Griffiths wrote: > And if you're going to claim that, you've got to think about sound > emulation. For example, what about sound emulation with the NES or SNES? > You can't claim that to be "true" emulation if you think that. What exactly do you mean? AFAIK, most of the current crop of NES emulators emulate the sound at the register level. I am not familiar with the SNES setup, but I was under the impression that they were somewhat similar. The NES scene does not use samples anymore =) > That's a topic we could start, but I don't want to. I want to get my work > finished today. :) Too late =) John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 00:58:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA06465 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004120802.KAA21001@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F425AE.E7EAA197@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 12, 2000 09:28:46 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:02:01 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Retrocade in there. Hmm, my top 10 would look something like: > > 1) Raine > 2) MAME (it plays Bubble Bobble, okay?) > 3) Retrocade > 4) ZSNES > 5) SNES9X > 6) KGEN > 7) Oh, choose any CPC emulator - No$CPC > 8) Choose any C64 emulator - CC64S > 9) Any speccy emulator > 10) Erm... Callus > > Although number 10 is dodgy as I don't normally use that anymore. Oh, okay: > > 10) NeoRAGE-X > > I use that more... My own list, it's limited and it has some severe missing because I haven't tried all emulators out there (for example Retrocade, although I'm sure it's one of the best). They are only emulators I usually use: 1) ZSNES (but lately it's becoming too slow) 2) Genecyst (some compatibity lacks, but really fast) 3) KGEN (too slow in old systems) 4) DBOY (other Gameboy emulators are also good) 5) Sparcade 6) Magic Engine 7) NeoRageX 8) CVGS (a bit slow but better than bleem) 9) UltraHLE (not tested the others, I don't like N64) 10) RAPE and NeogeoPock (these are news ..) 30) MAME (don't like it at all, but it's a good project for compile information on arcade systems) There are also some MSX emulators and Master System/GameGear emulators and I'm sure forgetting some. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 01:10:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA06494 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:10:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F42EBB.65864D50@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:07:23 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > And if you're going to claim that, you've got to think about sound > > emulation. For example, what about sound emulation with the NES or SNES? > > You can't claim that to be "true" emulation if you think that. > > What exactly do you mean? AFAIK, most of the current crop of NES emulators > emulate the sound at the register level. I am not familiar with the SNES > setup, but I was under the impression that they were somewhat similar. Yes, but they then try to make it sound like how it used to. Then it becomes simulation. Well... it does in my book. :) > The NES scene does not use samples anymore =) Which is a good thing. :) > > That's a topic we could start, but I don't want to. I want to get my work > > finished today. :) > > Too late =) Damnit! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 02:00:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06689 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004120903.LAA27092@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: <38F42EBB.65864D50@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 12, 2000 10:07:23 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:03:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com So there are 20 members in the list. I think it's a good number for a votation about dynarec terminology. What about it? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 02:12:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06787 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F43D50.61910FD2@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:09:36 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004120903.LAA27092@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > So there are 20 members in the list. > > I think it's a good number for a votation about dynarec terminology. > > What about it? I vote for my terms because they're correct. ;)) - Dynamic recompilation = Binary translation + handles self modifying code. Done during execution. - Dynamic compilation = Binary translation but cannot handle self modifying code. Done during execution. - Static recompilation = Binary translation + handles self modifying code. Done before execution - but may also use runtime analysis for self modifying code - Static compilation = Binary translation but cannot handle self modifying code. Done before execution. I would suggest that we try and come up with some new terms - but that may be what you mean by this vote. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 02:26:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06817 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004120929.LAA11701@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: <38F43D50.61910FD2@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 12, 2000 11:09:36 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:29:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > So there are 20 members in the list. > > > > I think it's a good number for a votation about dynarec terminology. > > > > What about it? > > I vote for my terms because they're correct. ;)) > Not really :)) > - Dynamic recompilation = Binary translation + handles self modifying code. > Done during execution. OK. > - Dynamic compilation = Binary translation but cannot handle self modifying > code. Done during execution. OK. > - Static recompilation = Binary translation + handles self modifying code. > Done before execution - but may also use runtime analysis for self > modifying code Never!!!! ;) I don't like this term. > - Static compilation = Binary translation but cannot handle self modifying > code. Done before execution. > OK. > I would suggest that we try and come up with some new terms - but that may > be what you mean by this vote. :) > Alternative terms changing translation for compilation. The basic terms: - Dynamic translation - Static translation - Interpreter I'm not sure about the 're-' preffix meaning that handles self-modifying code because it also can mean you don't cache all translations. But if people agrees with it I will agree too. It's shorter. Extended terminology: Append characteristhics or techniques used by the emulator as: - handles self-modifying code or not (and perhaps how) - transmapping or TLBs - size of the translation block - etc. It will be good to search short names for all those. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 02:42:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06874 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F4446B.94FF67A3@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:39:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004120929.LAA11701@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I vote for my terms because they're correct. ;)) > > > Not really :)) I'm right! I'm right! I'm right! ;))) > > - Static recompilation = Binary translation + handles self modifying code. > > Done before execution - but may also use runtime analysis for self > > modifying code > Never!!!! ;) I don't like this term. Nor me, but that's what it is. At least one document I've read has mentioned this. > Alternative terms changing translation for compilation. > > The basic terms: > > - Dynamic translation > - Static translation > - Interpreter I can agree with those, but it's important - for me - to be able to distinguish between compilation and recompilation. > I'm not sure about the 're-' preffix meaning that handles self-modifying code > because it also can mean you don't cache all translations. But if people agrees > with it I will agree too. It's shorter. The "re" comes from Latin and it means that something happens more than once. So, if you "recompile" - you must compile more than once. You can see this all through the English language. :) > Extended terminology: > > Append characteristhics or techniques used by the emulator as: > > - handles self-modifying code or not (and perhaps how) > - transmapping or TLBs > - size of the translation block > - etc. > > It will be good to search short names for all those. I agree. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 02:55:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06906 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: <38F4446B.94FF67A3@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 12, 2000 11:39:55 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:58:12 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > I vote for my terms because they're correct. ;)) > > > > > Not really :)) > > I'm right! I'm right! I'm right! ;))) > ;)))) > > > - Static recompilation = Binary translation + handles self modifying code. > > > Done before execution - but may also use runtime analysis for self > > > modifying code > > Never!!!! ;) I don't like this term. > > Nor me, but that's what it is. At least one document I've read has > mentioned this. > What document? Where can I find it? > > Alternative terms changing translation for compilation. > > > > The basic terms: > > > > - Dynamic translation > > - Static translation > > - Interpreter > > I can agree with those, but it's important - for me - to be able to > distinguish between compilation and recompilation. > > > I'm not sure about the 're-' preffix meaning that handles self-modifying code > > because it also can mean you don't cache all translations. But if people agrees > > with it I will agree too. It's shorter. > > The "re" comes from Latin and it means that something happens more than > once. So, if you "recompile" - you must compile more than once. > > You can see this all through the English language. :) > Same in Spanish, but I don't mean that. I mean that there are dynarec emulators that can be recompilers but they don't handle self-modifying code. For example a emulator with a limited amount of memory that has to delete translations because needs the memory. So recompilation or retranslation don't means that handles self-modifying code. > > Extended terminology: > > > > Append characteristhics or techniques used by the emulator as: > > > > - handles self-modifying code or not (and perhaps how) > > - transmapping or TLBs > > - size of the translation block > > - etc. > > > > It will be good to search short names for all those. > > I agree. :) > Good :) I think MIKE wrote a good mail about it, perhaps we use that mail as a start. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 04:49:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA07091 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:49:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003650e04cb4649_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:36:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'm not so interested in Macintosh emulation Neither am I, but Basilisk is cool. I had it installed on BeOS, I put an audio CD in the drive and Basilisk started playing it ;-) >(there's only one game I ever enjoyed for the Macintosh - Bolo), And that's originally an Atari ST game, since the programmer is Meinolf Schneider ;-) >but C64, Spectrum and *especially* CPC >emulation is what I like when I do computer emulation. And that's bad that >they're so low... :-/ I guess it depends on what you used, so I'm not that interested in Spectrum or CPC, but I always test a few C64 emulators for each platform. >There's no nostalgia anymore. The only nostalgia you'll find these days is >with the people who were in the emu 'scene' from the beginning. I'm not sure if I was in the scene from the beginning but I started quite early. >There we go, a new topic. What happened to the emu scene? When did it all >change for, what I think is, the worse? I think the really big change came with UltraHLE when there were ROM beggers all around, but there were slight changes even earlier. >My personal opinion is that it started to go wrong with Callus. I'm not >blaming Sardu for that emulator, I think it's an amazing piece of code. But >the games were pretty new and very popular and attracted a lot of >attention. Yeah, it was the first time that I could play arcade games that I played on the real machine. But it probably started even earlier and it surely was a console emulator and not a computer emulator. >The other possibility is with Genesis and SNES emulation. But... what do >you all think? Yeah, Snes9x and Genecyst made also a big change... -- M.I.Ke It is impossible to travel faster than light, and certainly not desirable, as one's hat keeps blowing off. -- Woody Allen --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 04:49:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA07099 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:24:25 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> > About motivation, what do you want a fan club? >> Sure! With dancing girls with big hooters. ;-) >If you want to pay for it, I can arrange it. It's very, very possible here >in Germany. ;) Really? I didn't know that :-( -- M.I.Ke Mencken and Nathan's Sixteenth Law of The Average American: Milking a cow is an operation demanding a special talent that is possessed only by yokels, and no person born in a large city can never hope to acquire it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 04:49:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA07108 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:49:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F42273.667485BB@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003650de5f6bd8c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F42273.667485BB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:28:17 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> More along the lines of Jeanne Tripplehorn. ;-) >Nope, no idea who that is. Think of Basic Instinct and Waterworld... -- M.I.Ke Things will be bright in P.M. A cop will shine a light in your face. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 04:49:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA07117 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:26:37 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >And I'd like to introduce... the other guy. :) OK, do that. >Very good, Mr. Davidson. You can put your trousers back up now. ;) Hehe ;-) >Isn't it? Erm, oops. That shows how deep I looked into the GUI code, >doesn't it? :o Shame on you! >Okay, NB, you can be happy (or happier) now. We're not using MFC. :) Not only NB ;-) >Haha! I knew talking about this would draw you out of the shadows. ;) Hey, you could have told us that he already did a dynarec... -- M.I.Ke The human animal differs from the lesser primates in his passion for lists of "Ten Best". -- H. Allen Smith --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 05:05:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA07174 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:03:02 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >If you want to pay for it, I can arrange it. It's very, very possible here > >in Germany. ;) > > Really? I didn't know that :-( Come to Munich! Go behind the Hauptbahnhoff and see for yourself! :o Not that I'd *ever* go looking, of course. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 05:06:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA07183 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:06:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:01:54 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Nor me, but that's what it is. At least one document I've read has > > mentioned this. > > > What document? Where can I find it? No idea. I've got the sort of memory that I can remember almost word perfect complete passages from books and magazines. But if you asked me which book or magazine that came from, I couldn't tell you. :) > > The "re" comes from Latin and it means that something happens more than > > once. So, if you "recompile" - you must compile more than once. > > > > You can see this all through the English language. :) > > > Same in Spanish, but I don't mean that. I mean that there are dynarec emulators > that can be recompilers but they don't handle self-modifying code. For example > a emulator with a limited amount of memory that has to delete translations > because needs the memory. So recompilation or retranslation don't means that > handles self-modifying code. Okay, I see what you mean. But if they do that, they're still recompiling - it doesn't matter whether the code has changed or not. I never said that a recompiler is *just* for self-modifying code. But I did say that a compiler can't handle it. :) > I think MIKE wrote a good mail about it, perhaps we use that mail as a start. If Mike says it's okay to do so, then yes. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 05:16:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA07220 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:16:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F46851.7B66711@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:13:05 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >And I'd like to introduce... the other guy. :) > > OK, do that. I already did, you're too late. ;) > >Isn't it? Erm, oops. That shows how deep I looked into the GUI code, > >doesn't it? :o > > Shame on you! I'm more interested in the emulation itself than the GUI. :) > >Okay, NB, you can be happy (or happier) now. We're not using MFC. :) > > Not only NB ;-) Okay, *everybody* in the whole wide world (except Microsoft) can be happy at that choice. :) > >Haha! I knew talking about this would draw you out of the shadows. ;) > > Hey, you could have told us that he already did a dynarec... I... didn't actually know! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 05:21:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA07236 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F46976.46CABDC9@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:17:58 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> <0003650e04cb4649_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >(there's only one game I ever enjoyed for the Macintosh - Bolo), > > And that's originally an Atari ST game, since the programmer is Meinolf > Schneider ;-) Then we're talking about different games because the game "Bolo" that I'm talking about only exists on the Macintosh. It's a multiplayer 2D overhead tank game thing. Was really my introduction to network gaming which is probably why I like it so much. > I guess it depends on what you used, so I'm not that interested in Spectrum > or CPC, but I always test a few C64 emulators for each platform. Spectrum because... well, you have to. C64 because of the hours me and my best friend used to play 2-player games on it - and CPC for obvious reasons (I must have mentioned it enough in the past!). That's something I miss - decent 2 player games you can play on one computer. Internet gaming may be all fine and dandy in the US where local phone calls are free - but not anywhere else in the world. Except Australia. Arse! :-/ > >There's no nostalgia anymore. The only nostalgia you'll find these days is > >with the people who were in the emu 'scene' from the beginning. > > I'm not sure if I was in the scene from the beginning but I started quite > early. I've been in it since ~1993/94... > >There we go, a new topic. What happened to the emu scene? When did it all > >change for, what I think is, the worse? > > I think the really big change came with UltraHLE when there were ROM beggers > all around, but there were slight changes even earlier. Oh, definitely. But the emu scene had press coverage before that. That's when it all started... > >My personal opinion is that it started to go wrong with Callus. I'm not > >blaming Sardu for that emulator, I think it's an amazing piece of code. But > >the games were pretty new and very popular and attracted a lot of > >attention. > > Yeah, it was the first time that I could play arcade games that I played on > the real machine. But it probably started even earlier and it surely was a > console emulator and not a computer emulator. Yes, I agree. > >The other possibility is with Genesis and SNES emulation. But... what do > >you all think? > > Yeah, Snes9x and Genecyst made also a big change... So... we're blaming Sardu then? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 06:43:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA07379 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036510a05da096_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:43:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I think MIKE wrote a good mail about it, perhaps we use that mail as a start. Nice, then I don't have to rewrite my opinion on that matter ;-) BTW, for all of you who don't have a mailer with a find procedure, my latest mail no that topic was on March 22 with the subject "Re: DYNAREC: OT: Compilation and recompilation", in which I disribed NB's approach as "volatile code-emitting dynamic translation without self-modifying code detection (yet)"... -- M.I.Ke "...and the fully armed nuclear warheads, are, of course, merely a courtesy detail." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 08:33:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07605 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:20:04 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No idea. I've got the sort of memory that I can remember almost word >perfect complete passages from books and magazines. But if you asked me >which book or magazine that came from, I couldn't tell you. :) For me it's often the other way round... >Okay, I see what you mean. But if they do that, they're still recompiling - >it doesn't matter whether the code has changed or not. I never said that a >recompiler is *just* for self-modifying code. But I did say that a compiler >can't handle it. :) Gotcha! Then a dynamic compiler (in your terms) would be a dynamic recompiler as well because it translates blocks of code and then starts to translate again when not enough code is available. You might not have emphasized that a dynamic recompiler is not only for self-modifying code, but that is the main difference between a dynamic compiler and a dynamic recompiler you quote so often. See why I feel that the small prefix "re" isn't good to distinguish different approaches? >If Mike says it's okay to do so, then yes. :) If what's ok? Using my mail as reference? Of course it's ok, that's why I posted it. -- M.I.Ke You worry too much about your job. Stop it. You're not paid enough to worry. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 08:33:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07616 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F46851.7B66711@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000365120b7f7dbb_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46851.7B66711@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:25:06 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Hey, you could have told us that he already did a dynarec... >I... didn't actually know! :) If there are not so many people with the same email address around then he wrote Spectrem-Dr, a dynarec Spectrum emulator... -- M.I.Ke If you wish to live wisely, ignore sayings -- including this one. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 08:33:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07617 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F46976.46CABDC9@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000365122d3b898f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> <0003650e04cb4649_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46976.46CABDC9@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:34:32 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Then we're talking about different games because the game "Bolo" that I'm >talking about only exists on the Macintosh. It's a multiplayer 2D overhead >tank game thing. Then it's a different game... >Was really my introduction to network gaming which is >probably why I like it so much. My first introduction to "network" gaming was MidiMaze on the Atari ST. A bit like Doom although you only ran around with Smilies, but you could connect up to 16 STs via MIDI. >That's something I miss - decent 2 player games you can play on one >computer. Indeed! It was just cool to play Bubble Bobble, Bruce Lee, MULE, etc sitting in front of the *same* computer. >Internet gaming may be all fine and dandy in the US where local >phone calls are free - but not anywhere else in the world. Except >Australia. Arse! :-/ Yeah, especially the fees of Deutsche Telekom and British Telecom are a real hinderence! >I've been in it since ~1993/94... Then I started a bit earlier on the ST. My first commercial emulator was a colour emulator (which was crap BTW) because I only had a monochrome monitor and couldn't run much games, but that emulator didn't change the situation. I also has a very primitive C64 emulator and two Spectrum emulators. >Oh, definitely. But the emu scene had press coverage before that. That's >when it all started... I think especially MAME and later Bleem were mentioned in the press. >So... we're blaming Sardu then? ;) He only did some nice emulators, the real problem were the ROM beggars... -- M.I.Ke There is no satisfaction in hanging a man who does not object to it -- G. B. Shaw --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 08:33:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07627 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000365120429d1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:23:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Come to Munich! Go behind the Hauptbahnhoff and see for yourself! :o I've never been there but now I can imagine what you meant ;-) BTW, the spelling is "Hauptbahnhof" because the "o" is long, in your spelling it would be short. >Not that I'd *ever* go looking, of course. :) Hey Pinoccio, isn't that long nose a problem in front of a computer monitor? ;-) -- M.I.Ke You cannot kill time without injuring eternity. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 08:47:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07656 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:43:57 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >No idea. I've got the sort of memory that I can remember almost word > >perfect complete passages from books and magazines. But if you asked me > >which book or magazine that came from, I couldn't tell you. :) > > For me it's often the other way round... Heh. We'd make a great team then. ;) > >Okay, I see what you mean. But if they do that, they're still recompiling - > >it doesn't matter whether the code has changed or not. I never said that a > >recompiler is *just* for self-modifying code. But I did say that a compiler > >can't handle it. :) > > Gotcha! Then a dynamic compiler (in your terms) would be a dynamic recompiler > as well because it translates blocks of code and then starts to translate > again when not enough code is available. You might not have emphasized that a > dynamic recompiler is not only for self-modifying code, but that is the main > difference between a dynamic compiler and a dynamic recompiler you quote so > often. If it can go back and retranslate code which was translated before then yes, it is indeed a dynamic recompiler. That's the difference. A recompiler can go back. But the real point is this: if it *can* go back and translate code (for whatever reason) then it stands to reason that it will also be able to handle self-modifying code too (maybe with a few very minor checks). > See why I feel that the small prefix "re" isn't good to distinguish different > approaches? But you see what the difference is? > >If Mike says it's okay to do so, then yes. :) > > If what's ok? Using my mail as reference? Of course it's ok, that's why I > posted it. Good. Because he was going to use it anyway. Ha! ;p :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 08:48:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07665 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:48:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F49A54.30BCDFC6@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:46:28 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> <000365120429d1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Come to Munich! Go behind the Hauptbahnhoff and see for yourself! :o > > I've never been there but now I can imagine what you meant ;-) Good, good. ;) The parks are meant to be pretty good during summer too. And alongside the river. Heh, I'll be lost for choices. So, where shall I go birdwatching today then? :)) > BTW, the spelling is "Hauptbahnhof" because the "o" is long, in your spelling > it would be short. Ah, my bad. Yes, you're right. I was just trying to type quickly! > >Not that I'd *ever* go looking, of course. :) > > Hey Pinoccio, isn't that long nose a problem in front of a computer monitor? > ;-) I haven't been looking... yet. :) But the "Erotik Messe" is now on. I may have to go along - just for research purposes, obviously. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 08:51:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07678 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:51:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F49AC3.811C346C@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:48:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46851.7B66711@eurocopter.de> <000365120b7f7dbb_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > If there are not so many people with the same email address around then he > wrote Spectrem-Dr, a dynarec Spectrum emulator... We spoke about his Spectrum emulator and, indeed, my own. I don't remember him mentioning about it being dynarec - but this was in the middle of several ~100k e-mail messages. It's difficult to remember exactly what was written then. Whatever, we both agree that a lot of clever tricks were pulled off to make the Speccy do *half* of what it did. :) I could be nasty and say "colour". Or truthful and say "sound". :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 08:58:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07704 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:58:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F49C89.B4904EEE@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:55:53 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> <0003650e04cb4649_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46976.46CABDC9@eurocopter.de> <000365122d3b898f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Then we're talking about different games because the game "Bolo" that I'm > >talking about only exists on the Macintosh. It's a multiplayer 2D overhead > >tank game thing. > > Then it's a different game... Definitely. I have been considering re-writing, but I know I'm not going to get around to it. And if I do, I'll want to make it 3D. Which is a really, really interesting concept actually... :) > >Was really my introduction to network gaming which is > >probably why I like it so much. > > My first introduction to "network" gaming was MidiMaze on the Atari ST. A bit > like Doom although you only ran around with Smilies, but you could connect up > to 16 STs via MIDI. Was that a realtime thing? Sounds like fun! I think Bolo would support up to 32 people at once. I remember we had 8 - which was pretty amazing at the time. That was via AppleTalk - through the connections normally used by the printers. This is funny because this was on the Macintoshes at high school. We had to break the protection on them (really difficult - hold down the left SHIFT key when booting) and change the network settings. Even now, apparently, those Macs still say "Printing using Lion" - Lion being my old demo coder name (and still my game-name). :)) > >That's something I miss - decent 2 player games you can play on one > >computer. > > Indeed! It was just cool to play Bubble Bobble, Bruce Lee, MULE, etc sitting > in front of the *same* computer. Yes, it was. But because people have moved onto FPS, this won't happen so easily. I know there are ports out for Doom that let 2 people play at once - that seems interesting. But my heart - for 2 player games - lies with platformers. :) > >Internet gaming may be all fine and dandy in the US where local > >phone calls are free - but not anywhere else in the world. Except > >Australia. Arse! :-/ > > Yeah, especially the fees of Deutsche Telekom and British Telecom are a real > hinderence! Yes, though we are getting flat-rate in Britain for reasonable money at the moment. There are similar things in Germany, but there are stupid restrictions. Such as 150DM/month for unlimited access - but you can only download 2GB/month. Doh! > >I've been in it since ~1993/94... > > Then I started a bit earlier on the ST. My first commercial emulator was a > colour emulator (which was crap BTW) because I only had a monochrome monitor > and couldn't run much games, but that emulator didn't change the situation. I > also has a very primitive C64 emulator and two Spectrum emulators. I wrote a terminal emulator before that - about 1988. For my amazingly fast (and expensive) 2400 baud acoustic coupler. Ah, those were the days. :) > >Oh, definitely. But the emu scene had press coverage before that. That's > >when it all started... > > I think especially MAME and later Bleem were mentioned in the press. Hmm. MAME started to attract attention... but was the attention before or after Callus? It hasn't been for too long - it started to get like it is now around 1997 - IIRC. > >So... we're blaming Sardu then? ;) > > He only did some nice emulators, the real problem were the ROM beggars... Of course, it's not the fault of the emu authors. It's the fault of the users. In a perfect world. When you look at UltraHLE - do you really believe that the authors thought that everyone would be nice and not beg for N64 ROMs? I know that I don't... But then, I'm a born cynic. I'm British! :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 09:11:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07756 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:08:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Heh. We'd make a great team then. ;) We just would keep teasing each other ;-) >If it can go back and retranslate code which was translated before then >yes, it is indeed a dynamic recompiler. That's the difference. A recompiler >can go back. So it's not a recompiler but a backtracking compiler? ;-) >But the real point is this: if it *can* go back and translate >code (for whatever reason) then it stands to reason that it will also be >able to handle self-modifying code too (maybe with a few very minor >checks). No, because the big problem is not how to "retranslate" the code but how to quickly identify if the code has been modified! >But you see what the difference is? If I use a magnifier, yes ;-) Actually I'm blind as a mole (about -9.5 on both eyes!)... >Good. Because he was going to use it anyway. Ha! ;p Hey Victor, what about a shareware fee ;-) Uh, bad idea, he'll be using Spanish terms then... ;-) -- M.I.Ke *** NEWSFLASH *** Russian tanks steamrolling through New Jersey!!!! Details at eleven! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 09:11:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07764 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F49A54.30BCDFC6@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036512ae0ef1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> <000365120429d1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49A54.30BCDFC6@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:10:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The parks are meant to be pretty good during summer too. And alongside the >river. Heh, I'll be lost for choices. So, where shall I go birdwatching >today then? :)) Watching pretty big birds (without wings) in the English Garden? ;-) >But the "Erotik Messe" is now on. I may have to go along - just for >research purposes, obviously. :)) Research, on what topic? BTW, how was your date? -- M.I.Ke Life is a whim of several billion cells to be you for a while. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 09:11:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07771 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F49AC3.811C346C@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036512b5cb43b2_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46851.7B66711@eurocopter.de> <000365120b7f7dbb_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49AC3.811C346C@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:12:43 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >We spoke about his Spectrum emulator and, indeed, my own. I don't remember >him mentioning about it being dynarec He has two versions, and the dynarec one is more or less experimental, but I only took a look at the source of the DR one. BTW, which Speccy emulator did you write? > - but this was in the middle of >several ~100k e-mail messages. It's difficult to remember exactly what was >written then. Whatever, we both agree that a lot of clever tricks were >pulled off to make the Speccy do *half* of what it did. :) Isn't that always done? ;-) >I could be nasty and say "colour". Or truthful and say "sound". :) I guess I have to know the Spectrum to understand these jokes. -- M.I.Ke Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 09:25:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07845 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:25:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F49C89.B4904EEE@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036512e5a191fa_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> <0003650e04cb4649_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46976.46CABDC9@eurocopter.de> <000365122d3b898f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49C89.B4904EEE@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:26:06 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Was that a realtime thing? Sounds like fun! I guess so, I only played it once. >I think Bolo would support up >to 32 people at once. I remember we had 8 - which was pretty amazing at the >time. That was via AppleTalk - through the connections normally used by the >printers. Not bad. >This is funny because this was on the Macintoshes at high school. We had to >break the protection on them (really difficult - hold down the left SHIFT >key when booting) and change the network settings. Hehe. >Even now, apparently, >those Macs still say "Printing using Lion" - Lion being my old demo coder >name (and still my game-name). :)) My game-name used to by Mike or my initials MIK when only 3 letters are possible. My online name M.I.K.e is aktually a hybrid of these two. After having played Half-Life with three others who decided to hunt me down together, which led to me having more kills than they together in most levels, I changed my game-name to KingOfPain since the first word is a translation of my last name and I'm also a big Sting fan. >Yes, it was. But because people have moved onto FPS, this won't happen so >easily. I know there are ports out for Doom that let 2 people play at once >- that seems interesting. But you could spy where the other one is runnign around. >But my heart - for 2 player games - lies with platformers. :) I'm not that into platformers... >I wrote a terminal emulator before that - about 1988. For my amazingly fast >(and expensive) 2400 baud acoustic coupler. I only got a modem after I had my PC. >Ah, those were the days. :) Oh yes! >Hmm. MAME started to attract attention... but was the attention before or >after Callus? I think it was after Callus, but I'm not too sure about that. >Of course, it's not the fault of the emu authors. It's the fault of the >users. In a perfect world. When you look at UltraHLE - do you really >believe that the authors thought that everyone would be nice and not beg >for N64 ROMs? I know that I don't... But then, I'm a born cynic. I'm >British! :)) Yeah, the reaction was obvious but much stronger than everyone imagined... -- M.I.Ke I don't care for the Sugar Smacks commercial. I don't like the idea of a frog jumping on my Breakfast. -- Lowell, Chicago Reader 10/15/82 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 09:28:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07869 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:28:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:28:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F49C89.B4904EEE@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >Oh, definitely. But the emu scene had press coverage before that. That's > > >when it all started... > > I think especially MAME and later Bleem were mentioned in the press. > Hmm. MAME started to attract attention... but was the attention before or > after Callus? It hasn't been for too long - it started to get like it is > now around 1997 - IIRC. Ahem.... Let me step in here... If you're talking console emulation, it existed in about 1995, but the arcade emulation stuff didn't start until January of 1996 when Dave Spicer released Sparcade. After that, I released EMU in September of 1996 and started a mailing list - That's when things started going. And MAME was started in Feb of '97 - one of the latecomers. At that time there were at least two dozen arcade emulators. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 10:33:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08199 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:33:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036513da80e263_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:34:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ahem.... Let me step in here... >If you're talking console emulation, it existed in about 1995, but the >arcade emulation stuff didn't start until January of 1996 when Dave Spicer >released Sparcade. >After that, I released EMU in September of 1996 and started a mailing list >- That's when things started going. And MAME was started in Feb of '97 - >one of the latecomers. At that time there were at least two dozen arcade >emulators. You obviously know more about arcade emulation than I do! But we didn't discuss which emulator has been the first, but which was mentioned even in the press and started the lamer problem. I'm certainly not a fan of MAME, but it was even mentioned in non-computer magazines in Germany, which made me think: "Why do they write about that *bad * example?" -- M.I.Ke Twenty Percent of Zero is Better than Nothing. -- Walt Kelly --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 10:39:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08231 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:50:41 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F42EBB.65864D50@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Neil Griffiths wrote: > > What exactly do you mean? AFAIK, most of the current crop of NES emulators > > emulate the sound at the register level. I am not familiar with the SNES > > setup, but I was under the impression that they were somewhat similar. > > Yes, but they then try to make it sound like how it used to. Then it > becomes simulation. Well... it does in my book. :) Give an example of what you're talking about =) If you mean that they tend to filter the sound a bit, that is because they're attempting to emulate that nasty big analog filter between the NES CPU (where the audio is generated) and the RCA jack. If you mean filtering elsewhere, it has little to do with the actual emulation, and more to do with the deficiencies of the sound card. Dumping a 1.789772.5 MHz signal out to the soundblaster without filtering does not sound all that great =P In short, all the decent NES emulators are emulating the sound at the hardware level. It's the only way to get it right. John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 11:17:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08428 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:17:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004101bfa4ab$75d4b3a0$901d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <00036505edd39554_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:10:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Erm... hello everyone, by the way! > > Ah, another lurker demasked ;-) > > BTW, your email address rang a bell and after a check I noticed that my > organic computer fetched the right data: So you are the author of SpectrEm- > Dr, right? Indeed. I'll probably never live that down... ;) > Well, it could be really interesting for you when NB finally finishes his Z80 > dynarec ;-) Hopefully it'll be a tad faster and more efficient than the core in SpectrEm, which was pants. It was a very useful learning experience, though. Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 11:31:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08524 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:31:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:31:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >And I'd like to introduce... the other guy. :) > > OK, do that. > > >Very good, Mr. Davidson. You can put your trousers back up now. ;) > > Hehe ;-) Shocking! :) > >Haha! I knew talking about this would draw you out of the shadows. ;) > > Hey, you could have told us that he already did a dynarec... It's not all that dynarec, though. It was intended to be, originally, but the full dynarec version I did was so slow I threw it away and did an immediate value recompiler instead. If the Z80 code modifies an immediate value it simply self-modifies the equivalent compiled x86 value, which is an awful lot faster than full block recompilation. I've since had a number of ideas for some rather spiffy block spliting that should allow full recompilation without destroying the speed, but it's going to be a fair bit of work and I'm far to lazy to ever sit down and try it. Incidentally, with regard to the naming conventions, what do you people think we should call a partial recompiler like that in SpectrEm-DR? In my constant quest for interesting bits and bobs about compiling emulators I found a web page (which I've since lost the URL of!) that accused SpectrEm-DR of being a "lazy" recompiler. I quite like that. It pretty much sums up my whole work ethos! :) Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 12:42:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08896 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> Message-Id: <000365159f472f39_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:41:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It's not all that dynarec, though. It was intended to be, originally, but >the full dynarec version I did was so slow I threw it away and did an >immediate value recompiler instead. If the Z80 code modifies an immediate >value it simply self-modifies the equivalent compiled x86 value, which is an >awful lot faster than full block recompilation. I've since had a number of >ideas for some rather spiffy block spliting that should allow full >recompilation without destroying the speed, but it's going to be a fair bit >of work and I'm far to lazy to ever sit down and try it. Maybe you can share some of your ideas with us if you want. >Incidentally, with regard to the naming conventions, what do you people >think we should call a partial recompiler like that in SpectrEm-DR? I bet NG calls it a dynamic compiler ;-) Maybe combined with "backtracked patching" to support self-modifying code. >In my >constant quest for interesting bits and bobs about compiling emulators I >found a web page (which I've since lost the URL of!) that accused >SpectrEm-DR of being a "lazy" recompiler. I quite like that. It pretty much >sums up my whole work ethos! :) Erm, I think that was "lazy code translation" which was just used as an alternative term for dynamic recompilation, inspired of lazy evaluation in languages like Miranda or Gopher. The URL of the page is: http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/emulation/ dynrcomp.htm Just in case you haven't guessed already, I wrote that page... -- M.I.Ke Barach's Rule: An alcoholic is a person who drinks more than his own physician. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 17:14:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09813 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:14:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002101bfa4d3$c809bf80$ce21883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> <000365159f472f39_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:06:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >It's not all that dynarec, though. It was intended to be, originally, but > >the full dynarec version I did was so slow I threw it away and did an > >immediate value recompiler instead. If the Z80 code modifies an immediate > >value it simply self-modifies the equivalent compiled x86 value, which is an > >awful lot faster than full block recompilation. I've since had a number of > >ideas for some rather spiffy block spliting that should allow full > >recompilation without destroying the speed, but it's going to be a fair bit > >of work and I'm far to lazy to ever sit down and try it. > > Maybe you can share some of your ideas with us if you want. I'd love to, I find the whole subject fascinating. The thing is, it's all a tad pointless for a 3.5mhz CPU. On my P2-266 SpectrEm-DR uses about 5% of the cpus power. If it was rewritten properly I think you could probably halve that. When I benchmarked Z80, which is written in C, I think it managed about 10% cpu usage at 3.5mhz. It just doesn't seem worth the effort for CPUs that are intended to run at such teeny clock rates. Still, overclocking it was fun. I managed to emulate a 49mhz Speccy on my machine without slowdown, and I'm dying to hear what kind of performance you can get on a decent PC! Playing Feud at 14 times its intended speed is certainly interesting... :) The only problem is, the core is too buggy to run any of the 3D speccy games. Driller (a 3D 'Freescape' game) runs at about 1.5 SPF (yep, SPF, not FPS) on a standard Speccy, so it should be just about playable at 49mhz... Mind, I bet it uses self modifying code all over the place... Maybe I should write a NeoGeo emulator. They run their Z80s at 6mhz, don't they? We might be able to get a worthwhile performance increase with that... > >Incidentally, with regard to the naming conventions, what do you people > >think we should call a partial recompiler like that in SpectrEm-DR? > > I bet NG calls it a dynamic compiler ;-) > Maybe combined with "backtracked patching" to support self-modifying code. Oooh stop! My head hurts. I'm with Neil Griffiths on this one, whether he's right or wrong. We spent a couple of months arguing about it and we're finally pretty much in agreement, so I'm all argued out, I'm afraid! ;) Mind, saying that... Simplification is often advantageous. You need to define a few simple terms, which are bound to be a bit inaccurate because simple terms can't describe complex ideas, then you take your terms, and you define them. This just seems to make more sense to me than having a million different paragraph length descriptions for each and every possible technique or idea ever. Translation instead of compilation is an idea, though... only it doesn't allow the idea of repeated translation (support for self-modification) to come in... Argh! I'm off again! Someone sedate me! > >In my > >constant quest for interesting bits and bobs about compiling emulators I > >found a web page (which I've since lost the URL of!) that accused > >SpectrEm-DR of being a "lazy" recompiler. I quite like that. It pretty much > >sums up my whole work ethos! :) > > Erm, I think that was "lazy code translation" which was just used as an > alternative term for dynamic recompilation, inspired of lazy evaluation in > languages like Miranda or Gopher. > The URL of the page is: http://www.cybervillage.co.uk/acorn/emulation/ > dynrcomp.htm > Just in case you haven't guessed already, I wrote that page... That's the one! It's a nice page, that. I found it very interesting. So how come you didn't describe the other dynarec cores as lazy code translators? That was the reason I thought it was a specialist term, you see... > -- > M.I.Ke > > Barach's Rule: > An alcoholic is a person who drinks more than his own > physician. Oh dear. Mine's a tee-totaller! Andrew (hic!) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 23:27:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10914 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:27:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:27:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... In-Reply-To: <38F42273.667485BB@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > More along the lines of Jeanne Tripplehorn. ;-) > Nope, no idea who that is. http://filosofo.net/JeanneTripplehorn/foto/JeanneTripplehorn/jeanne23.htm She was in The Firm and a few other movies. Not a big actress, but I like her. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 23:30:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10928 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:30:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:30:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > There we go, a new topic. What happened to the emu scene? When did it all > change for, what I think is, the worse? The "kids" took over. It became a WaReZ scene. > My personal opinion is that it started to go wrong with Callus. I'm not > blaming Sardu for that emulator, I think it's an amazing piece of code. But > the games were pretty new and very popular and attracted a lot of > attention. Yeah, the wrong kind of "kiddie" attention where the kids just joined up trading ROMs and act like they are entitled to everything. It's a similar militaristic attitude of the right wing open source Nazis. Because their stuff is open source, they think everything is and should be freely available and are justified in stealing. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 23:34:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10938 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:34:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F56993.16A771F9@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:30:43 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> <000365159f472f39_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa4d3$c809bf80$ce21883e@ben> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Maybe you can share some of your ideas with us if you want. > > I'd love to, I find the whole subject fascinating. The thing is, it's all a > tad pointless for a 3.5mhz CPU. On my P2-266 SpectrEm-DR uses about 5% of > the cpus power. If it was rewritten properly I think you could probably > halve that. When I benchmarked Z80, which is written in C, I think it > managed about 10% cpu usage at 3.5mhz. It just doesn't seem worth the effort > for CPUs that are intended to run at such teeny clock rates. Still, > overclocking it was fun. I managed to emulate a 49mhz Speccy on my machine > without slowdown, and I'm dying to hear what kind of performance you can get > on a decent PC! Playing Feud at 14 times its intended speed is certainly > interesting... :) The only problem is, the core is too buggy to run any of > the 3D speccy games. Driller (a 3D 'Freescape' game) runs at about 1.5 SPF > (yep, SPF, not FPS) on a standard Speccy, so it should be just about > playable at 49mhz... Mind, I bet it uses self modifying code all over the > place... Ah... all the talk yesterday about 8-bit computers made me think. So I loaded "Animedes" (it's called something like that) and discovered a program that, for the first time in almost 3 years, needed EMS. I couldn't be arsed with that, so I loaded up No$CPC. It's been ages since I've used a CPC emulator now. Gosh, it brought back memories... Anyway, playing Dizzy at "Unlimited speed" is something that can be recommended if you are completely pissed. My god, it's very, VERY funny. :) On my 450MHz CPU I'm not sure how many FPS it was - but it was certainly over 90fps. :) > Maybe I should write a NeoGeo emulator. They run their Z80s at 6mhz, don't > they? We might be able to get a worthwhile performance increase with that... Okay, Andrew, deep breaths. In... out... in... and out. Good. Now, calm down. ;) > > I bet NG calls it a dynamic compiler ;-) > > Maybe combined with "backtracked patching" to support self-modifying code. > > Oooh stop! My head hurts. I'm with Neil Griffiths on this one, whether he's > right or wrong. We spent a couple of months arguing about it and we're > finally pretty much in agreement, so I'm all argued out, I'm afraid! ;) I was going to say exactly the same. Hey, it was a great couple of months though. :) > Mind, saying that... Simplification is often advantageous. You need to > define a few simple terms, which are bound to be a bit inaccurate because > simple terms can't describe complex ideas, then you take your terms, and you > define them. This just seems to make more sense to me than having a million > different paragraph length descriptions for each and every possible > technique or idea ever. Translation instead of compilation is an idea, > though... only it doesn't allow the idea of repeated translation (support > for self-modification) to come in... Argh! I'm off again! Someone sedate me! How about "Repetitive translation compiler"? :) > That's the one! It's a nice page, that. I found it very interesting. So how > come you didn't describe the other dynarec cores as lazy code translators? > That was the reason I thought it was a specialist term, you see... The scary thing is that it sums up my whole work ethos too. I'm now madly answering e-mail so I don't have to do work. I'm working on something which is basically the black box - it monitors when things have gone wrong. But, ironically, it is broken itself - and they want me to find out why. I can tell them why. "Because it's crap!" I think they want a more descriptive answer though... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 23:39:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10955 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:39:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:35:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Heh. We'd make a great team then. ;) > > We just would keep teasing each other ;-) True. But it'd be fun. ;) > >If it can go back and retranslate code which was translated before then > >yes, it is indeed a dynamic recompiler. That's the difference. A recompiler > >can go back. > > So it's not a recompiler but a backtracking compiler? ;-) Yes - but that's exactly what a recompiler does. Or, to be fair, *can* do. > >But the real point is this: if it *can* go back and translate > >code (for whatever reason) then it stands to reason that it will also be > >able to handle self-modifying code too (maybe with a few very minor > >checks). > > No, because the big problem is not how to "retranslate" the code but how to > quickly identify if the code has been modified! Split off each 4K (or less). If a write happens inside one of the 4K blocks, mark it somewhere (you only need 1 bit to do this). If the IP gets to that 4K then recompile. If you can handle going back to translate code again, this shouldn't be a problem. And it should be pretty damn fast too. That's just a quick idea I've come up with. Probably isn't the best in the world - but I did come up with it in just under 5 seconds. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 23:42:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10971 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F56B86.D0C2273A@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:39:02 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> <000365120429d1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49A54.30BCDFC6@eurocopter.de> <00036512ae0ef1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Watching pretty big birds (without wings) in the English Garden? ;-) Yes - and if it's cold then I'll be watching for some blue tits (okay, that's a joke that non-English speakers may not get). :) > >But the "Erotik Messe" is now on. I may have to go along - just for > >research purposes, obviously. :)) > > Research, on what topic? Erm... I'm not going to touch that one with a 9ft barge-pole. :) > BTW, how was your date? Hmm, yes. Was that the one that never happened? :o Someone gave me a quick punch to the... painful bits... and I generally didn't want to do anything after that. Two good reasons: a) I was in pain b) If it went well, then... ow. =:o I've got to get some of those protection pad things, but I don't know what they're called in German - so I don't know what to ask for. And everytime I go into any sports shop, it's always a fairly attractive female behind the counter - so I can't even do the mime for it. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 23:44:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10983 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F56C22.187B6767@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:41:38 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46851.7B66711@eurocopter.de> <000365120b7f7dbb_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49AC3.811C346C@eurocopter.de> <00036512b5cb43b2_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > BTW, which Speccy emulator did you write? Not many people got to see it because I never released it. It was a Speccy emulator for... my CPC. Yes. Using a CPC 6128 (with 128K of RAM) you could load an 8k (or up to 12k - if you were lucky) Spectrum program and it'd work. I didn't have to do much work with the CPU (same one - haha!) and so my main problem was getting a BIOS image and reading Spectrum tapes. Oh, and getting an image up. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 12 23:54:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA11004 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:54:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <200004120742.JAA19323@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Not much nostalgia left :-( > > There's no nostalgia anymore. The only nostalgia you'll find these days is > > with the people who were in the emu 'scene' from the beginning. > Now people wants to play N64 and Play Station games on their PCs. But this > is because emulation scene has grown a lot. Now emulators aren't underground, > they have become in a another part of the warez and piracy scene. When > something becomes popular the average people who follows it becomes worst. I see it as a disturbing trend - not just with emulation, but the internet and computing society as a whole. The quality of software is going down because people's minimum expectations are lower. Computers are getting easier to use and thusly more idiots are writing programs. We're taking a step backward in audio technology (MP3 - it's lossy and far worse than CDs are). Our CPUs are getting faster and software runs about the same as it always has. The Linux community are a bunch of anti-everything Nazis who are forcibly ramming their medicore half attempt at an OS down everyone's throat (didn't they accuse Microsoft of the same thing?). People are self-appointed clairvoyant mediums who suddenly have the ability to peer deep into the souls of every company and know what their intentions. What the fuck do they know? I think it boils down to most people are too stupid and ignorant to care or know any differently. What bugs me is people seem to be happily ignorant - like it's OK! I'd be much, much happier if there was some sort of programming license required before you can obtain a compiler. And if Linux just went away. I'm really sick of hearing about it when there are better alternatives. I'm tired of the hype. I'm tired of the lameo following of people who are using it. Like fucking Honda Accord owners who think their car is the purest and best thing on the market and absolutely nothing that happens to it mechanically is really a failure, when on any other car it would be reason to never buy another one. Just like Macintosh owners! Sorry to vent. I just had a long day where a tool at work couldn't figure out that his "preference" causes extra work for other people. That, and another guy who doesn't fucking listen to anyone and just implements whatever he feels like implementing. I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but stupidity is forever binding it seems. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't Synthcom Systems, Inc. care!" - Peter Gibbons - Office Space ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:00:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11042 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F56FD3.8AD4C660@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:57:23 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> <0003650e04cb4649_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46976.46CABDC9@eurocopter.de> <000365122d3b898f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49C89.B4904EEE@eurocopter.de> <00036512e5a191fa_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Even now, apparently, > >those Macs still say "Printing using Lion" - Lion being my old demo coder > >name (and still my game-name). :)) > > My game-name used to by Mike or my initials MIK when only 3 letters are > possible. My online name M.I.K.e is aktually a hybrid of these two. > After having played Half-Life with three others who decided to hunt me down > together, which led to me having more kills than they together in most > levels, I changed my game-name to KingOfPain since the first word is a > translation of my last name and I'm also a big Sting fan. Heh. :) I'm pretty good at FPS games - everyone usually has one type of game that they're really good at - and this type is mine. For instance, played a network game at my house the other day in Q3A. Put on 6 bots on the medium skill setting and me and my flatmate connected. About 45mins later I was on 150 kills - and you could have picked any other two people from the game, added their scores and they wouldn't have been as high as mine. This may not seem so brilliant until you realise that my flatmate used to play FPS games online all day every day last year and has been asked to join lots of clans. So he's considered to be quite good. May I just insert an evil laugh here? :)) > >Yes, it was. But because people have moved onto FPS, this won't happen so > >easily. I know there are ports out for Doom that let 2 people play at once > >- that seems interesting. > > But you could spy where the other one is runnign around. Agreed, but you could play co-operatively. Like with the majority of the old 2-players. :) > >But my heart - for 2 player games - lies with platformers. :) > > I'm not that into platformers... Nor me - only for 2-player games. > >Of course, it's not the fault of the emu authors. It's the fault of the > >users. In a perfect world. When you look at UltraHLE - do you really > >believe that the authors thought that everyone would be nice and not beg > >for N64 ROMs? I know that I don't... But then, I'm a born cynic. I'm > >British! :)) > > Yeah, the reaction was obvious but much stronger than everyone imagined... I didn't. When I saw it back in that January (I was at my friends house at the time) I thought "Nah, it isn't possible". We tried it out with a Mario64 ROM - and it worked. I thought it was a joke and just a simulation and would crash out after a while - nope. It was then that I thought "Ooooh shit. Downhill from here onwards," and I was right. :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:02:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11054 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:02:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F57041.7F157327@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:59:13 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > If you're talking console emulation, it existed in about 1995, but the > arcade emulation stuff didn't start until January of 1996 when Dave Spicer > released Sparcade. > > After that, I released EMU in September of 1996 and started a mailing list > - That's when things started going. And MAME was started in Feb of '97 - > one of the latecomers. At that time there were at least two dozen arcade > emulators. I can't quite remember which was my first arcade emulator. I know that it could have been Sparcade. I remember EMU - but I seem to remember a Gauntlet emulator around the same time. Was that MAGE? I can't remember. Whatever, I'm sure I played Gauntlet before I used MAME... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:04:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11068 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:04:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F570DD.C3948D90@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:01:49 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> <000365159f472f39_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Erm, I think that was "lazy code translation" which was just used as an > alternative term for dynamic recompilation, inspired of lazy evaluation in > languages like Miranda or Gopher. AAAAARGH! AAAARGGHHHH! AARGH! Whew, that brought back bad memories. I *never* want to touch Miranda again. It's an evil language and should be banished to the lowest levels of hell. Which is roughly where it come from, IMO. I *hate* functional languages, but I especially hate Miranda. I don't like Prolog either. Hell, I can't think of a functional language that I *do* like! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:06:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11080 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5718A.AEAD0D00@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:05:10 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Michael Koenig wrote: > >Heh. We'd make a great team then. ;) > > We just would keep teasing each other ;-) > Hehe ;) > >But the real point is this: if it *can* go back and translate > >code (for whatever reason) then it stands to reason that it will also be > >able to handle self-modifying code too (maybe with a few very minor > >checks). > > No, because the big problem is not how to "retranslate" the code but how to > quickly identify if the code has been modified! > You are right. My opinion now is this: dynamic recompiling has no sense as NG is now talking about it because any dynamic compiler CAN recompile by it´s own definition. You see, if you can build a translation there isn´t a reason you can´t translate the same block of code twice, three or any times. So a dynamic compiler and a dynamic recompiler are the same, you are only saing that in one of them you use the capabality of make multiple translation of the same block of code and in the other don´t. The real important thing is if you are TESTING for self-modifying code. This is the real problem about self-modifying code, how to detect it. Then rebuild the translation it´s easy just use the same standard as it was a new block of code. Because of this I think than any dynamic translator can become easily a dynamic translator that handles self-modifying code adding a test for memory write on code memory regions. The real problem is how make this test enough fast, because usually will be a real knightmare for perfomance. > > >But you see what the difference is? > > If I use a magnifier, yes ;-) > Actually I'm blind as a mole (about -9.5 on both eyes!)... > I only -3.5 and -4.5 :) > > >Good. Because he was going to use it anyway. Ha! ;p > > Hey Victor, what about a shareware fee ;-) > Uh, bad idea, he'll be using Spanish terms then... ;-) > I thought that mail was for free ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:06:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11093 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:06:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F56B86.D0C2273A@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003651f33ef615d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> <000365120429d1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49A54.30BCDFC6@eurocopter.de> <00036512ae0ef1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56B86.D0C2273A@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:06:59 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes - and if it's cold then I'll be watching for some blue tits (okay, >that's a joke that non-English speakers may not get). :) I think I can understand that ;-) >Hmm, yes. Was that the one that never happened? :o Oww :-( >I've got to get some of those protection pad things, but I don't know what >they're called in German - so I don't know what to ask for. I think it's called "Suspensorium", but I'm not too sure about that. >And everytime I >go into any sports shop, it's always a fairly attractive female behind the >counter - so I can't even do the mime for it. :)) Hehe ;-) You could also call it "Eierwärmer", but you certainly don't want to do that in front of a women ;-) -- M.I.Ke "But officer, I was only trying to gain enough speed so I could coast to the nearest gas station." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:08:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11102 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5718E.B330CC63@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:04:46 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > There we go, a new topic. What happened to the emu scene? When did it all > > change for, what I think is, the worse? > > The "kids" took over. It became a WaReZ scene. Agreed - and it's not something I'm happy about. :-/ > > My personal opinion is that it started to go wrong with Callus. I'm not > > blaming Sardu for that emulator, I think it's an amazing piece of code. But > > the games were pretty new and very popular and attracted a lot of > > attention. > > Yeah, the wrong kind of "kiddie" attention where the kids just joined up > trading ROMs and act like they are entitled to everything. Exactly - and it's extremely wrong. But you can see this from the EmuCamp "Top 100" where the "best" emulators are the ones that emulate the modern stuff. I don't like that. Mind you, that's probably because most arcades in the UK are old and I can still play that stuff on the real machine. :)) > It's a similar militaristic attitude of the right wing open source Nazis. > Because their stuff is open source, they think everything is and should be > freely available and are justified in stealing. I agree, it's not a good situation. That's why I'm getting back into the *writing* of emulators - I can do something useful. Which is more than the other 99.999% of people out there in the "scene". :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:10:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11115 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:10:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F56EB8.1CF84763@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:52:40 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: <00036501f68e75d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F42377.E0EF566@eurocopter.de> <0003650e04cb4649_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F46976.46CABDC9@eurocopter.de> <000365122d3b898f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49C89.B4904EEE@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Griffiths wrote: > > >Internet gaming may be all fine and dandy in the US where local > > >phone calls are free - but not anywhere else in the world. Except > > >Australia. Arse! :-/ > > > > Yeah, especially the fees of Deutsche Telekom and British Telecom are a real > > hinderence! > > Yes, though we are getting flat-rate in Britain for reasonable money at the > moment. There are similar things in Germany, but there are stupid > restrictions. Such as 150DM/month for unlimited access - but you can only > download 2GB/month. Doh! > You are in luck. Here in Spain the standard Internet connection (modem) usually goes about 5-10 Kbps. A lot of more expensive alternatives is something called RDSI (64 Kbps or 128 Kbps with two channels) and the new ADSL technology, but surely it´s too expensive, that works at some MBs second. You pay for time connection or you pay the connection itself and no limits. I haven´t either of them as I only start work last month. I hope I will buy a modem soon. > > > >I've been in it since ~1993/94... > > > > Then I started a bit earlier on the ST. My first commercial emulator was a > > colour emulator (which was crap BTW) because I only had a monochrome monitor > > and couldn't run much games, but that emulator didn't change the situation. I > > also has a very primitive C64 emulator and two Spectrum emulators. > > I wrote a terminal emulator before that - about 1988. For my amazingly fast > (and expensive) 2400 baud acoustic coupler. Ah, those were the days. :) > I´m since five years ago when I started my studies in the unversity. Before that Internet was something unknown for me, and I learn programming by myself in some small librarys near my home with old, really old books. > > > >Oh, definitely. But the emu scene had press coverage before that. That's > > >when it all started... > > > > I think especially MAME and later Bleem were mentioned in the press. > > Hmm. MAME started to attract attention... but was the attention before or > after Callus? It hasn't been for too long - it started to get like it is > now around 1997 - IIRC. > Here in Spain MAME was the first. Now seems is getting more known for people out of Internet or programming scene. In last month a lot of videogames and computer magazines are writing articles about emulation. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:10:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11125 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:10:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F572B5.699DE02D@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:09:41 +0200 From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" Organization: Facultat =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=27Inform=E0tica?= de Barcelona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,es,ca MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Neil Bradley wrote: > Ahem.... Let me step in here... > > If you're talking console emulation, it existed in about 1995, but the > arcade emulation stuff didn't start until January of 1996 when Dave Spicer > released Sparcade. > That was the best arcade emulator I tested until Callus arrived. I get really impressed when any games worked fast in my old 486 when M.A.M.E. was so slow. Dave Spicer impressed me a lot. This remembers me that I have to download Retrocade, I have to test it ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:16:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11169 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:16:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:16:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F572B5.699DE02D@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > That was the best arcade emulator I tested until Callus arrived. I get really > impressed when any games worked fast in my old 486 when M.A.M.E. was so slow. Dave > Spicer impressed me a lot. This remembers me that I have to download Retrocade, I > have to test it ... As a benchmark, Retrocade will run Galaga on a 486/66 full speed (3 Z80s) @ 44.1khz. MAME Can't break 25FPS with half the sample rate. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 00:58:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11269 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:09:15 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: <38F56EB8.1CF84763@est.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com First, half that Linux nazi issue is the media shoveling it out because it's the "hot new thing". Most of us are not quite that blind to the problems =) Upsides: 25 day uptime and counting supports all my hardware runs quake3 free compiler that usually performs acceptably OS sources avaliable Sources to almost everything avaliable None of that Explorer nonsense OS under constant development Downsides: Documentation is somewhat spotty OS under constant development Netscape is extremely unstable (it crash this much in NT?) AT&T asm syntax No decent Intel syntax assembler (nasm is marginal) Don't think it supports any PCI soundcards yet Pretty much locked into the GNU toolchain for now X is long overdue for a complete overhaul GPL is rather extreme As for the types that demand all sources to be free, remember that that is an opinion. Personally I consider the BSD license to be a bit more usable, from a programmer's standpoint. Has a much more practical outlook on things. Programming for X is a bit better than Windows IMHO, but it's far from optimal. Being able to run graphical programs over the network and all is nice but most of the applications of that have pretty much vanished... The GNU toolchain has its own quirks. ld doesn't seem to support real incremental linking. The source trees are quite full, and somewhat inapproachable without LONG study. X took that to an extreme though, unpacked XFree86 4.0 sources are 193MB, though half of that is made up of fonts and documentation (the manuals DO exist in electronic form...) As one person put it, "Linux is proprietary junk, it's not BSD, and it's not SysV" Functional Languages: One of the two courses I took at UT was Intro to CS... taught in Haskell. I passed that one by the skin of my teeth. That language must die, along with all of it's children, parents, relatives, and acquaintances. While you're at it, get rid of BASIC and Pascal, please =P On another note, to anyone who thinks about rewriting their toolchain with somewhat different symbol resolution policies, it isn't as easy as it first appears... John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 01:00:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11294 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 01:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004130803.KAA22779@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F5718E.B330CC63@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 09:04:46 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:03:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > There we go, a new topic. What happened to the emu scene? When did it all > > > change for, what I think is, the worse? > > > > The "kids" took over. It became a WaReZ scene. > > Agreed - and it's not something I'm happy about. :-/ > True. But I think it isn't so bad, you just have to ignore them. > I agree, it's not a good situation. That's why I'm getting back into the > *writing* of emulators - I can do something useful. Which is more than the > other 99.999% of people out there in the "scene". :-/ > Are you talking about me? :o Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 01:34:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11416 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 01:34:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004130835.KAA19323@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Apr 13, 2000 00:16:38 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:35:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > As a benchmark, Retrocade will run Galaga on a 486/66 full speed (3 Z80s) > @ 44.1khz. MAME Can't break 25FPS with half the sample rate. > Really impresive. Do you know how it works compared with Sparcade? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 01:57:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11460 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 01:57:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004130857.KAA30223@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: from "tarquin@austin.rr.com" at "Apr 12, 2000 08:09:15 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:57:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Upsides: > 25 day uptime and counting > supports all my hardware Not mine :( > free compiler that usually performs acceptably > OS sources avaliable > Sources to almost everything avaliable Good for programmers, universities and students but not for end users. > Downsides: > AT&T asm syntax This is really bad :) > > As for the types that demand all sources to be free, remember that that is > an opinion. Personally I consider the BSD license to be a bit more > usable, from a programmer's standpoint. Has a much more practical > outlook on things. > As a opinion I think the main problem (and I'm talking about what happens here in Spain) is the prices are too expensives for the average people, with more reasonable prices perhaps ... I have only used Linux for do homework for my university. > with all of it's children, parents, relatives, and acquaintances. While > you're at it, get rid of BASIC and Pascal, please =P > Hey, I like Basic and Pascal. Basic was my first language and Pascal my second, and I still think it's more understable (but slower) than C. For learning I think is better than C. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 02:04:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA11583 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:04:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:04:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <200004130835.KAA19323@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > As a benchmark, Retrocade will run Galaga on a 486/66 full speed (3 Z80s) > > @ 44.1khz. MAME Can't break 25FPS with half the sample rate. > Really impresive. Do you know how it works compared with Sparcade? At last I checked it was around 30% faster than Sparcade for all commonly supported games. Sparcade rules, though! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 02:08:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA11605 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:08:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > First, half that Linux nazi issue is the media shoveling it out because > it's the "hot new thing". Yep. > Upsides: > 25 day uptime and counting FreeBSD/BSDI regularly beat this. I know of a FreeBSD 1.1.5 system that has been up for 1200 days now. > supports all my hardware Mine too. > runs quake3 Eh? did they come out with a UNIX version? > free compiler that usually performs acceptably gcc - comes with FreeBSD. > OS sources avaliable Same with FreeBSD. > Sources to almost everything avaliable Same with FreeBSD. > None of that Explorer nonsense ;-) > OS under constant development Same with FreeBSD, but the development is much more tightly controlled and they have quite a bit more organization to their project. > Downsides: > Documentation is somewhat spotty True. > OS under constant development ;-) > Netscape is extremely unstable (it crash this much in NT?) > AT&T asm syntax Not Linux's fault. > No decent Intel syntax assembler (nasm is marginal) Not Linux's fault. > Don't think it supports any PCI soundcards yet Really? The SB Live is supported by FreeBSD and I'm sure it is under Linux, too. > Pretty much locked into the GNU toolchain for now > X is long overdue for a complete overhaul That's not Linux's fault - that's Xfree86's... > GPL is rather extreme Yet another FreeBSD advantage. > As for the types that demand all sources to be free, remember that that is > an opinion. Personally I consider the BSD license to be a bit more > usable, from a programmer's standpoint. Has a much more practical > outlook on things. Yep. GPL Is far too restrictive. > As one person put it, "Linux is proprietary junk, it's not BSD, and it's > not SysV" It can't quite figure out what it wants to be. ;-) > One of the two courses I took at UT was Intro to CS... taught in Haskell. > I passed that one by the skin of my teeth. That language must die, along > with all of it's children, parents, relatives, and acquaintances. While > you're at it, get rid of BASIC and Pascal, please =P BASIC Is OK if that's all you ever intend on learning. But going from BASIC to C, you've got to unlearn some really nasty bad habits. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 02:28:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA11712 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:28:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004130931.LAA25394@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: First SI summary In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Apr 13, 2000 02:08:19 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:31:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I have been thinking a bit about the SI project. I'm working in summary. What do you think about this? I have thought a name: Invasores (Invaders in Spanish) but I think better use one peoples agrees with. Invasores Summary 0. Introduction/preparation work - Introduction - Present myself - Present the project - Present the game - Information sources * Docs * Emus * Schematics * ???? - Tools (DJGPP, etc) 1. Getting started - Main structure of an emulator Chapter I The CPU core 1. Main structure of the CPU core - Main loop - Context - First functions 2. Implementing the opcodes 2.0 General implementation of an instruction About this I think it is only a way to organize the work that will be where the more time will be wasted. I think perhaps I will introduce some other techniques only for learning while implementing all the opcodes. 2.1 Arithmetic Instructions 2.2 Memory instructions 2.3 Jump instructions 2.4 Testing 3. Memory maps 4. Interrupts and timing 5. The core interface Chapter II Graphics, sound an other hardware I still have to learn about the SI hardware. Chapter III An asm core (I don't now if making it in parallel with the C core or do it when (if) the whole C emulator will be implemented). Chapter IV A dynarec core Hehe, this could be fun ;) But I think it will be really hard to arrive here, but a step-by-step dynarec core is something I will study someday ... Any comments? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 05:02:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA11963 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131205.OAA19856@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: <38F5718A.AEAD0D00@est.fib.upc.es> from "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" at "Apr 13, 2000 09:05:10 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:05:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I was reading last night Marat's How to and I saw 'static recompilation'. But he was naming in fact 'static compilation'. The same happens when he says 'dynamic recompilation' but really is 'dynamic compilation'. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 05:05:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA11975 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5B730.DEF8CE45@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:01:52 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I see it as a disturbing trend - not just with emulation, but the internet > and computing society as a whole. Amen. Yes, I completely agree with this. And not just with the computing society - but society as a whole. > The quality of software is going down because people's minimum > expectations are lower. Computers are getting easier to use and thusly > more idiots are writing programs. We're taking a step backward in audio > technology (MP3 - it's lossy and far worse than CDs are). Our CPUs are > getting faster and software runs about the same as it always has. The > Linux community are a bunch of anti-everything Nazis who are forcibly > ramming their medicore half attempt at an OS down everyone's throat > (didn't they accuse Microsoft of the same thing?). People are > self-appointed clairvoyant mediums who suddenly have the ability to peer > deep into the souls of every company and know what their intentions. What > the fuck do they know? I completely agree. People have lost any quality ethos that they may have had. I like audio quality - so I'm not keen on MP3. Okay, I can store lots of MP3s on a CD. But the sound quality annoys me. And also, most encoders have a 16KHz cutoff - that also annoys me. I hate the way that people accept lower quality software these days. I hate the way in which people accept crashes as perfectly normal. 6 or 7 years ago this would not have been acceptable. I hate the way in which companies release their software knowing full well that they will need to release bug patches only a couple of days after it ships. This is terrible. Yes, we have the Internet - but we didn't use to and software didn't usually have bugs. Or, to be fair, have bugs which actually stopped the software from working. > I think it boils down to most people are too stupid and ignorant to care > or know any differently. What bugs me is people seem to be happily > ignorant - like it's OK! I'd be much, much happier if there was some sort > of programming license required before you can obtain a compiler. And if > Linux just went away. I'm really sick of hearing about it when there are > better alternatives. I'm tired of the hype. I'm tired of the lameo > following of people who are using it. I also thing that most people seem to be too stupid and ignorant. It's a really, really stupid situation to be in. I can agree with your "programming license" idea, but there are still quite a few home coders out there - like emu authors - who can code well. What would be the deciding factor on getting a licence? Whether they're going to write for Linux or not? ;) I also think that too much hype is put onto Linux. It is NOT that good. It's hard for a beginner to pick up, the documentation is scarce and there are too many h4x0rs using it. I don't want to be in the same crowd as them. Though I do like the idea that it's hard for a beginner to pick up. If you can pick it up, it shows you have some intelligence about you... :)) > Sorry to vent. I just had a long day where a tool at work couldn't figure > out that his "preference" causes extra work for other people. That, and > another guy who doesn't fucking listen to anyone and just implements > whatever he feels like implementing. I know that feeling only too well... > I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but stupidity is forever > binding it seems. It appears that way, yes. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 05:23:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA12011 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:23:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5BAC4.94D014DD@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:17:08 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004131205.OAA19856@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I was reading last night Marat's How to and I saw 'static recompilation'. > But he was naming in fact 'static compilation'. The same happens when > he says 'dynamic recompilation' but really is 'dynamic compilation'. Exactly - this is why we need to get sorted with the terminology. A true dynamic recompiler CPU core is *much* more impressive technically than a dynamic compiler. Having said that, a dynamic compiler core should be faster than the recompiler core. Which is why Andy and myself are wanting to do a dynamic compiler core. And also, probably working alongside NB. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 05:25:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA12027 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5BA56.11397908@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:15:18 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary References: <200004130931.LAA25394@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I have been thinking a bit about the SI project. I'm working in summary. > What do you think about this? I'll read on and let you know. :) > I have thought a name: Invasores (Invaders in Spanish) but I think better > use one peoples agrees with. Well, there was a small vote some time ago and the name that won was "Space8". The name doesn't matter to me, though. > Invasores Summary > > 0. Introduction/preparation work > > - Introduction > - Present myself > - Present the project > - Present the game > - Information sources > * Docs > * Emus > * Schematics > * ???? > - Tools (DJGPP, etc) Yep, that sounds good so far. > 1. Getting started > > - Main structure of an emulator Okay, people need to know and understand this. > Chapter I The CPU core > > 1. Main structure of the CPU core > > - Main loop > - Context > - First functions > > 2. Implementing the opcodes > > 2.0 General implementation of an instruction > > About this I think it is only a way to organize the work that will be > where the more time will be wasted. I think perhaps I will introduce > some other techniques only for learning while implementing all the > opcodes. Yes, this is where the project falls over. This bit is the difficult bit... > 2.1 Arithmetic Instructions > 2.2 Memory instructions > 2.3 Jump instructions > 2.4 Testing By "testing", you mean comparisons? You also need to explain flags. > 3. Memory maps > > 4. Interrupts and timing And this can be a difficult concept to someone coming across this for the first time. > 5. The core interface Yep. Text based is good for this one - otherwise you have to explain how to write a GUI. And writing a good one can be quite difficult! > Chapter II Graphics, sound an other hardware > > I still have to learn about the SI hardware. I've been learning from documentation across the web. Chances are you've already got it! > Chapter III An asm core > > (I don't now if making it in parallel with the C core or do it when (if) the > whole C emulator will be implemented). This is a bad idea. I don't know how good your asm is, but explaining how to write one is a tremendously difficult task. And beginners can quite easily write a *slower* asm core than the default C one. :) > Chapter IV A dynarec core > > Hehe, this could be fun ;) But I think it will be really hard to arrive here, > but a step-by-step dynarec core is something I will study someday ... Again, this gets into the "this isn't funny" stage. Can you truly imagine people new to emulation trying this one out? :o But, if you could explain the asm one and get a good response, maybe it's possible. I just don't think it'll happen. Nothing to stop you from trying it yourself though. :) I can help co-ordinate the project, I can help with anything - I just can't do it by myself at all. It's just not going to happen. It would have been difficult before - but now impossible what with doing Ju-jitsu as well! I'm going to devote most of my programming time to the new emulator (Andrew, are you okay if I mention the name of it - this is killing me!). At least... this is my plan. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 05:35:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA12059 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131237.OAA14249@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F5B730.DEF8CE45@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 02:01:52 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:37:48 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > I see it as a disturbing trend - not just with emulation, but the internet > > and computing society as a whole. > > Amen. Yes, I completely agree with this. And not just with the computing > society - but society as a whole. > I think you have superiority feelings ;) But in fact I also have such feelings sometimes, this is good or it's bad :o. But after seing the average people 'intelligence' it's by far small I can't think it's so bad. > > The quality of software is going down because people's minimum > > expectations are lower. Computers are getting easier to use and thusly > > more idiots are writing programs. We're taking a step backward in audio > > technology (MP3 - it's lossy and far worse than CDs are). Our CPUs are > > getting faster and software runs about the same as it always has. The > > Linux community are a bunch of anti-everything Nazis who are forcibly > > ramming their medicore half attempt at an OS down everyone's throat > > (didn't they accuse Microsoft of the same thing?). People are > > self-appointed clairvoyant mediums who suddenly have the ability to peer > > deep into the souls of every company and know what their intentions. What > > the fuck do they know? > > I completely agree. People have lost any quality ethos that they may have > had. I like audio quality - so I'm not keen on MP3. Okay, I can store lots > of MP3s on a CD. But the sound quality annoys me. And also, most encoders > have a 16KHz cutoff - that also annoys me. > About MP3 I think it has enough quality for people who has an old ISA SB16 with the worst posible loudspeakers to listen them. And I'm one of them. And I think having 10 music hours in a single CD it's a good thing. But perhaps it's because I'm a bit beaf. The average 44khz, 160 or 192 kbps MP3 quality it's quite good for me. But I'm not an expert and I don't have a good music equipment. > I hate the way that people accept lower quality software these days. I hate > the way in which people accept crashes as perfectly normal. 6 or 7 years > ago this would not have been acceptable. I hate the way in which companies > release their software knowing full well that they will need to release bug > patches only a couple of days after it ships. This is terrible. Yes, we > have the Internet - but we didn't use to and software didn't usually have > bugs. Or, to be fair, have bugs which actually stopped the software from > working. > Microsoft? All videogames companies? They release BETA versions of his games! And they sell at the same price as a full made game. People works as beta testers without being paied. And not all people has Internet access. Because of this I usually like more companies who made games for consoles, they usually (but this is changing lately) release finished jobs. I have a game that it's unplayable, the number of bugs it's greatest than the number of bugs of Windows I think. > > I think it boils down to most people are too stupid and ignorant to care > > or know any differently. What bugs me is people seem to be happily > > ignorant - like it's OK! I'd be much, much happier if there was some sort > > of programming license required before you can obtain a compiler. And if > > Linux just went away. I'm really sick of hearing about it when there are > > better alternatives. I'm tired of the hype. I'm tired of the lameo > > following of people who are using it. > > I also thing that most people seem to be too stupid and ignorant. It's a > really, really stupid situation to be in. > Just saw how the world has become. Famine with food excedents, wars everywhere, corruption, what it's called democracy but it isn't real democracy ... Whatever. It's best I shut down. > I can agree with your "programming license" idea, but there are still quite > a few home coders out there - like emu authors - who can code well. What > would be the deciding factor on getting a licence? Whether they're going to > write for Linux or not? ;) > I don't like licences. They easily becomes in a closed scene controled by a few people. Like old middle-age guild corporations. > I also think that too much hype is put onto Linux. It is NOT that good. > It's hard for a beginner to pick up, the documentation is scarce and there > are too many h4x0rs using it. I don't want to be in the same crowd as them. > I think Linux is by far the worst OS for beginners. Now this is changing a bit with new companies as Corel who build more easy Linux versions. But Linux fails in compability in hardware and between Linux and other Unix versions. Linux has been (my university is a good example) a good tool for research and for learning. This is because it's free and source open. I think it's good for university, but still not enough for end users. > > I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but stupidity is forever > > binding it seems. > > It appears that way, yes. > I agree, and the more I hate about the 'average people' it's their stupidity. The worst it's I'm ignorant in a bunch of things and sometimes I also act as I was stupid :( Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 05:54:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA12106 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:54:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131255.OAA10165@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary In-Reply-To: <38F5BA56.11397908@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 02:15:18 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:55:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I have thought a name: Invasores (Invaders in Spanish) but I think better > > use one peoples agrees with. > > Well, there was a small vote some time ago and the name that won was > "Space8". The name doesn't matter to me, though. > Ah. I forgot it. Oh, but I want a Spanish name ;)) > Yes, this is where the project falls over. This bit is the difficult bit... > > > 2.1 Arithmetic Instructions > > 2.2 Memory instructions > > 2.3 Jump instructions > > 2.4 Testing > > By "testing", you mean comparisons? > No these are in fact arithmetic instructions. What I was meaning is how to test that the instructions are well implemented. This could be easy because we have a lot of tested Z80 cores out there as MZ80. What I don't know is whether do it while implementing instructions or at the end of the core. > You also need to explain flags. It will be primary explained in 2.0 and then in arithmetic instructions that are the ones that usually generates flags. > > > 3. Memory maps > > > > 4. Interrupts and timing > > And this can be a difficult concept to someone coming across this for the > first time. > OK, but just a few words. I have thought that while all the opcodes are being implemented I can release small documents with code examples explaining more complex techniques. > > 5. The core interface > > Yep. Text based is good for this one - otherwise you have to explain how to > write a GUI. And writing a good one can be quite difficult! > My english will be a problem I think :( I mean work a bit in the functions needed to call properly the CPU core from the main program. I mean something like mz80reset(), mz80exec(), mz80getcontext and so on. Only for make it more polite. > > Chapter II Graphics, sound an other hardware > > > > I still have to learn about the SI hardware. > > I've been learning from documentation across the web. Chances are you've > already got it! > I'm being downloading something today, I will get a book about 8080 from university library and I will study all this next week :) > > Chapter III An asm core > > > > (I don't now if making it in parallel with the C core or do it when (if) the > > whole C emulator will be implemented). > > This is a bad idea. I don't know how good your asm is, but explaining how > to write one is a tremendously difficult task. And beginners can quite > easily write a *slower* asm core than the default C one. :) > I think my asm is best than my C. I like and understand better asm than C, what the hell! But it's only an idea. I thought making it in parallel could help to do comparision between C and asm. It's better I let it as a second course tutorial. If I finish the first tutorial someday ... > > Chapter IV A dynarec core > > > > Hehe, this could be fun ;) But I think it will be really hard to arrive here, > > but a step-by-step dynarec core is something I will study someday ... > > Again, this gets into the "this isn't funny" stage. Can you truly imagine > people new to emulation trying this one out? :o > No this idea is for people who knows interpreter emulation. And I don't think mul8 will be the best mailing list for it, perhaps dynarec mail list. But all people in dynarec list seems to know enough about dynarec to don't need it though. Perhaps some of the lurkers will need it ;) I will work on that later. People in SI is getting anxious I think, and next week I will be off. Do you think enough people will stand on the list when/if the tutorial get started? :o Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 05:59:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA12119 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131302.PAA26399@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: <38F5BAC4.94D014DD@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 02:17:08 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:02:04 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > I was reading last night Marat's How to and I saw 'static recompilation'. > > But he was naming in fact 'static compilation'. The same happens when > > he says 'dynamic recompilation' but really is 'dynamic compilation'. > > Exactly - this is why we need to get sorted with the terminology. A true > dynamic recompiler CPU core is *much* more impressive technically than a > dynamic compiler. Having said that, a dynamic compiler core should be > faster than the recompiler core. Which is why Andy and myself are wanting > to do a dynamic compiler core. And also, probably working alongside NB. :) > Not again please. I think we disagree on this. Until I see a working and good enough dynamic recompiler I won't think that dynamic recompiling exists. Now, as dynamic recompilation is being told and as no techniques can be found to handle in a proper manner self-modifying code I think a dynamic compiler is a recompiler with self-modifying or recompile feature switched off. A dynamic compiler has all what it's needed for build a recompiler but it's acting as it. An idea: let's try to find a real and fast technique for handling self-modifying code. If this could exist, though. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 06:42:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA12231 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 06:42:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5CD1E.F524E168@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:35:26 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004131302.PAA26399@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Exactly - this is why we need to get sorted with the terminology. A true > > dynamic recompiler CPU core is *much* more impressive technically than a > > dynamic compiler. Having said that, a dynamic compiler core should be > > faster than the recompiler core. Which is why Andy and myself are wanting > > to do a dynamic compiler core. And also, probably working alongside NB. :) > > Not again please. I think we disagree on this. Until I see a working and > good enough dynamic recompiler I won't think that dynamic recompiling exists. It exists. I use one here at work. Made by HP. :) > Now, as dynamic recompilation is being told and as no techniques can be found > to handle in a proper manner self-modifying code I think a dynamic compiler is > a recompiler with self-modifying or recompile feature switched off. A dynamic > compiler has all what it's needed for build a recompiler but it's acting as it. You can use special techniques to speed the emulation in a dynamic compiler because you have no overhead of checking for modified code. So it's not really a recompiler with the feature turned off - though I *do* see what you mean. > An idea: let's try to find a real and fast technique for handling self-modifying > code. If this could exist, though. My technique I mentioned before should be a real and fast technique. And it exists! It just... isn't implemented. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 06:49:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA12243 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 06:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131349.PAA00422@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary In-Reply-To: <200004131255.OAA10165@pons.ac.upc.es> from Victor Moya del Barrio at "Apr 13, 2000 02:55:51 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:49:48 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com A bit of help, please. I have been downloading SI documets from spies.com. But those pdf are really strange, my acrobat reader can't read them. What is it happening? Victor MOya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 06:50:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA12255 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 06:50:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131353.PAA00997@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: <38F5CD1E.F524E168@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 03:35:26 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:53:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > Exactly - this is why we need to get sorted with the terminology. A true > > > dynamic recompiler CPU core is *much* more impressive technically than a > > > dynamic compiler. Having said that, a dynamic compiler core should be > > > faster than the recompiler core. Which is why Andy and myself are wanting > > > to do a dynamic compiler core. And also, probably working alongside NB. :) > > > > Not again please. I think we disagree on this. Until I see a working and > > good enough dynamic recompiler I won't think that dynamic recompiling exists. > > It exists. I use one here at work. Made by HP. :) > Umm, it has documentation? I always search for new info. > > Now, as dynamic recompilation is being told and as no techniques can be found > > to handle in a proper manner self-modifying code I think a dynamic compiler is > > a recompiler with self-modifying or recompile feature switched off. A dynamic > > compiler has all what it's needed for build a recompiler but it's acting as it. > > You can use special techniques to speed the emulation in a dynamic compiler > because you have no overhead of checking for modified code. So it's not > really a recompiler with the feature turned off - though I *do* see what > you mean. > Of course, the only difference I see between dynamic recompilation and dyynamic compilation it's this test. The test for modified code really harms the performance of the emulation. > > An idea: let's try to find a real and fast technique for handling self-modifying > > code. If this could exist, though. > > My technique I mentioned before should be a real and fast technique. And it > exists! It just... isn't implemented. :) > What, where, how ?!!!! I have missed it .... :o I will have to search it ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 06:57:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA12282 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 06:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5D086.23EF2105@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:49:58 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> <000365120429d1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49A54.30BCDFC6@eurocopter.de> <00036512ae0ef1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56B86.D0C2273A@eurocopter.de> <0003651f33ef615d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Yes - and if it's cold then I'll be watching for some blue tits (okay, > >that's a joke that non-English speakers may not get). :) > > I think I can understand that ;-) Good. That means you can understand my whole humour level. :) > >Hmm, yes. Was that the one that never happened? :o > > Oww :-( Amongst many swear-words, this was one of the things I said. :)) The ironic thing is that at the time we were practising a new stance - which allegedly stopped this sort of thing. But... nope. Remember, a swift punch in the knackers (there we go, TRUE British slang) will often put you on the floor. :o > >I've got to get some of those protection pad things, but I don't know what > >they're called in German - so I don't know what to ask for. > > I think it's called "Suspensorium", but I'm not too sure about that. Nor me. I've a feeling it's called a "Cricket box" in Britain, but I'm not even sure about THAT! :o > >And everytime I > >go into any sports shop, it's always a fairly attractive female behind the > >counter - so I can't even do the mime for it. :)) > > Hehe ;-) > You could also call it "Eierwärmer", but you certainly don't want to do that > in front of a women ;-) Thermal underwear? I'm not going to ask. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 06:58:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA12291 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 06:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131401.QAA01781@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 08:35:00 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:01:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I found it :)) > Split off each 4K (or less). If a write happens inside one of the 4K > blocks, mark it somewhere (you only need 1 bit to do this). If the IP gets > to that 4K then recompile. > > If you can handle going back to translate code again, this shouldn't be a > problem. And it should be pretty damn fast too. > > That's just a quick idea I've come up with. Probably isn't the best in the > world - but I did come up with it in just under 5 seconds. :) > This seems a lot like that old paged transmapping technique I thought long time ago. A clear addition to this is use a memory map approach. You know, you don't have to test all memory space for modifyied code only the blocks (as RAM zone in an arcade machine) that can have self-modified code. When I wrote about extending NB dynamic compiler to handle self-modifying code I talk about this, but as NB translation at instruction level each memory byte is and must be marked. The worst is that you still have to track all writes. What I want is something that will help not to test all memory writes because it's what slowsdown the emulation. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 07:15:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA12354 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:26:08 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: <200004130857.KAA30223@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Victor Moya del Barrio wrote: > > Upsides: > > > free compiler that usually performs acceptably > > OS sources avaliable > > Sources to almost everything avaliable > Good for programmers, universities and students but not for end users. Agreed, but then again, are you sure you WANT normal end-users? =P > > Downsides: > > AT&T asm syntax > This is really bad :) What's worse, nasm hasn't been updated since last June, and LCC revved the code generator interface. The lcc->nasm backend ceased to work. And the documentation on the new interface is done in terms of what changed from the book... > As a opinion I think the main problem (and I'm talking about what happens > here in Spain) is the prices are too expensives for the average people, with > more reasonable prices perhaps ... Depends on the software. Most all the things I use are free, because they work well enough to be acceptable =P > > with all of it's children, parents, relatives, and acquaintances. While > > you're at it, get rid of BASIC and Pascal, please =P > > > > Hey, I like Basic and Pascal. Basic was my first language and Pascal my second, > and I still think it's more understable (but slower) than C. For learning I > think is better than C. Learning perhaps, but the problem is people embraced them as production languages. I learned BASIC long ago, switched to HyperTalk, learned C/asm, took a course in Pascal, went back to C/asm before the course ended =P > Victor Moya John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 07:22:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA12370 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:22:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:33:45 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Neil Bradley wrote: Heh, I don't have much against BSD, but I'm not going through the trouble of reformatting any portion of my 27GB drive to try it out =P > > Upsides: > > 25 day uptime and counting > > FreeBSD/BSDI regularly beat this. I know of a FreeBSD 1.1.5 system that > has been up for 1200 days now. Once you get past about 60 it's usually irrelevant. Hardware upgrades and all =P > > runs quake3 > > Eh? did they come out with a UNIX version? Yup, loki ported it to linux. Don't know how well it runs in FreeBSD, hardware accel and everything if Mesa supports your card. > Same with FreeBSD, but the development is much more tightly controlled and > they have quite a bit more organization to their project. So I've noticed, also looked like they supported a couple of extra semantics that linux doesn't seem to yet (SA_SIGINFO comes to mind). However, mmap /proc/self/mem does not seem to work for bankswitching on FreeBSD =P > > Netscape is extremely unstable (it crash this much in NT?) > > AT&T asm syntax > > Not Linux's fault. Didn't think so, the crashes are too predictable... > > No decent Intel syntax assembler (nasm is marginal) > > Not Linux's fault. GNU's fault =P > > Don't think it supports any PCI soundcards yet > > Really? The SB Live is supported by FreeBSD and I'm sure it is under > Linux, too. Heh, I haven't looked into the details any time recently, use a SB32 PnP myself, damn good card. Some of those newer ones like the Diamond MX300 look nice though... 3D sound is cool... > > X is long overdue for a complete overhaul > > That's not Linux's fault - that's Xfree86's... True, though nyef was kicking around the idea of building a decent window system on top of XFree86's drivers... > > GPL is rather extreme > > Yet another FreeBSD advantage. Yes =/ > > As one person put it, "Linux is proprietary junk, it's not BSD, and it's > > not SysV" > > It can't quite figure out what it wants to be. ;-) And unfortunately, neither can it seem to document every last detail =/ Can't quite fault them on that though, I'm not fond of writing docs either... > BASIC Is OK if that's all you ever intend on learning. But going from > BASIC to C, you've got to unlearn some really nasty bad habits. Yes... best way I heard it was that BASIC had great potential for permanent brain damage =P > -->Neil > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but > Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. > ICQ # 29402898 John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 07:31:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA12407 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:42:13 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 In-Reply-To: <38F5B730.DEF8CE45@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Neil Griffiths wrote: > patches only a couple of days after it ships. This is terrible. Yes, we > have the Internet - but we didn't use to and software didn't usually have > bugs. Or, to be fair, have bugs which actually stopped the software from > working. Ahh, the good old days of DOS, before people could routinely download a 15 MB patch. And windows was scorned for being about as reliable as a rainstorm in the sahara... > I also think that too much hype is put onto Linux. It is NOT that good. > It's hard for a beginner to pick up, the documentation is scarce and there > are too many h4x0rs using it. I don't want to be in the same crowd as them. You have a personal beef against Linux? Linus molest you as a kid? =P The fact that it is hard for a beginner to pick up is not restricted to it, it is a side effect of all Unices. However, that fact is also the reason a large amount of its userbase uses it. Steep learning curves weed out those who can't deal with it, and generally mean the system is more likely to do what you want. As for the h4x0rs, we all know your average skript kiddie has the IQ of a roach, the steep learning curve forces them to the help channels earlier. The questions they tend to ask have a nasty tendancy to get them permabanned =) (How do I compile an eggdrop? How do I hack into Apache? etc) Though with the recent setups Redhat and others are coming up with, we're getting more and more idiots running around. New people are good, but now we're getting into the crowd that has no standards and doesn't want to learn =/ Case in point, Enlightenment. The developers have no idea about how to write a decent build process, they've come up with a window manager that can take a minute to load on a BEEFED machine, and not only that, one that crashes unpredictably. Problem is that it's called a decent release =/ > Though I do like the idea that it's hard for a beginner to pick up. If you > can pick it up, it shows you have some intelligence about you... :)) See above =) > Neil. John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 07:41:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA12426 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:41:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131444.QAA00188@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: from "tarquin@austin.rr.com" at "Apr 13, 2000 02:26:08 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:44:16 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Victor Moya del Barrio wrote: > > > > Upsides: > > > > > free compiler that usually performs acceptably > > > OS sources avaliable > > > Sources to almost everything avaliable > > Good for programmers, universities and students but not for end users. > > Agreed, but then again, are you sure you WANT normal end-users? =P > Hehe, but if you are a programmer you still need someone who buys your programs, whatever they are :) > > As a opinion I think the main problem (and I'm talking about what happens > > here in Spain) is the prices are too expensives for the average people, with > > more reasonable prices perhaps ... > > Depends on the software. Most all the things I use are free, because they > work well enough to be acceptable =P > Perhaps, but in Spain the shareware or freeware market it isn't as good as this. Internet access is growing up but still is a bit difficult, magazines provide some shareware too, but you can't search the best shareware by yourself. And more, in Spain piracy is the rule, and I still don't know if I like it or not :o > > > with all of it's children, parents, relatives, and acquaintances. While > > > you're at it, get rid of BASIC and Pascal, please =P > > > > > > > Hey, I like Basic and Pascal. Basic was my first language and Pascal my second, > > and I still think it's more understable (but slower) than C. For learning I > > think is better than C. > > Learning perhaps, but the problem is people embraced them as production > languages. I learned BASIC long ago, switched to HyperTalk, learned > C/asm, took a course in Pascal, went back to C/asm before the course ended > =P > Visual Basic isn't real BASIC and it's still a lot of useful for prototyping and to build simple applications. Pascal isn't worst than Java or C++ or other high level languages. The worst is that it's dead, I think Delphi doesn't have a future ... For the kind of software (slow software) the companies are producing I don't thing they need C or assembler, Pascal or Java are good enough. BTW I don't think they use C or assembler anymore. That good old days when all games were wrotten in assembler. I still can remember how easy they were to understand while debugging for searching for the life variable ..., ahh, it remembers me this happy childhood days .... ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 07:47:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA12469 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:47:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 02:58:42 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: <200004131444.QAA00188@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Victor Moya del Barrio wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Victor Moya del Barrio wrote: > > Agreed, but then again, are you sure you WANT normal end-users? =P > > > Hehe, but if you are a programmer you still need someone who buys your > programs, whatever they are :) That's why you have someone port it to windows for the main market =) > Visual Basic isn't real BASIC and it's still a lot of useful for prototyping and > to build simple applications. Pascal isn't worst than Java or C++ or other > high level languages. The worst is that it's dead, I think Delphi doesn't have > a future ... I have serious issues with the First Law of Pascal: The programmer does not know what they're doing. This ideology permeates the language... > For the kind of software (slow software) the companies are producing I don't > thing they need C or assembler, Pascal or Java are good enough. BTW I don't > think they use C or assembler anymore. That good old days when all games were C or C++ for good software houses. Java makes qbasic look fast... C++ has it's own issues... > wrotten in assembler. I still can remember how easy they were to understand > while debugging for searching for the life variable ..., ahh, it remembers me > this happy childhood days .... ;) Hehe > Victor Moya John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 07:58:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA12506 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:58:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131500.RAA25568@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: from "tarquin@austin.rr.com" at "Apr 13, 2000 02:58:42 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:00:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I have serious issues with the First Law of Pascal: The programmer does > not know what they're doing. This ideology permeates the language... > The sad thing is that usually it's true :( > C or C++ for good software houses. Java makes qbasic look fast... > This is another old one, qbasic ... :) I don't know how someone can say that Java it's the language of the future ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:09:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12543 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:09:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5E2F3.7BC0010A@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:08:35 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... References: <200004131500.RAA25568@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > C or C++ for good software houses. Java makes qbasic look fast... > > > This is another old one, qbasic ... :) Anyone remember GW-BASIC for the PC? :o > I don't know how someone can say that Java it's the language of the future ... The idea behind Java should make it the language of the future. The actual implementation doesn't. Cross-platform languages are good - but when you're talking at this speed, it's horrible... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:10:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12555 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:10:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5E296.D8C8014C@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:07:02 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... References: <200004131444.QAA00188@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Perhaps, but in Spain the shareware or freeware market it isn't as good as this. > Internet access is growing up but still is a bit difficult, magazines provide > some shareware too, but you can't search the best shareware by yourself. I think that Internet access in Europe is ruled by Germany - though Britain is now actually catching up. > And more, in Spain piracy is the rule, and I still don't know if I like it > or not :o Hmm... > Visual Basic isn't real BASIC and it's still a lot of useful for prototyping and > to build simple applications. Pascal isn't worst than Java or C++ or other > high level languages. The worst is that it's dead, I think Delphi doesn't have > a future ... How can you work out that VB isn't real BASIC? Also, Pascal *is* much worse than Java or C++. And Ada takes all the good things out of Pascal and C++ - and then merges all the bad things together. I *hate* Ada. And I have to use it day in, day out. :-/ > For the kind of software (slow software) the companies are producing I don't > thing they need C or assembler, Pascal or Java are good enough. BTW I don't > think they use C or assembler anymore. That good old days when all games were > wrotten in assembler. I still can remember how easy they were to understand > while debugging for searching for the life variable ..., ahh, it remembers me > this happy childhood days .... ;) Me too. I used to have a Multiface II for my CPC. Basically a hardware debugger. Ah, it was great. =) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:16:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12578 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5E38F.ACCB8516@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:11:11 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004131401.QAA01781@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I found it :)) Well done. :) > This seems a lot like that old paged transmapping technique I thought long > time ago. Is it? Well, you know what they say about great minds, don't you? :) > A clear addition to this is use a memory map approach. You know, you don't have > to test all memory space for modifyied code only the blocks (as RAM zone in an > arcade machine) that can have self-modified code. The clear downside to this is that you have to know which areas can contain code. > When I wrote about extending NB dynamic compiler to handle self-modifying code > I talk about this, but as NB translation at instruction level each memory byte > is and must be marked. My solution gets around that. Whether it's the best solution, though, I just don't know! > The worst is that you still have to track all writes. What I want is something > that will help not to test all memory writes because it's what slowsdown > the emulation. No matter what method you'll use, you have to watch for writes. It's how you deal with it that gives you the speed-ups/slow-downs... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:19:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12591 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131522.RAA15285@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: <38F5E2F3.7BC0010A@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 05:08:35 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:22:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > C or C++ for good software houses. Java makes qbasic look fast... > > > > > This is another old one, qbasic ... :) > > Anyone remember GW-BASIC for the PC? :o > :) When I bought my second computer, an Olivetti PC clone, I only have a single 3.5 inch floppy with MS-DOS 3.2, GW-BASIC and DEBUG, what do you think was the first thing I do? ;) Just run GW-BASIC. Later I run DEBUG. And a lot of later I bought my first videogames. > > I don't know how someone can say that Java it's the language of the future ... > > The idea behind Java should make it the language of the future. The actual > implementation doesn't. Cross-platform languages are good - but when you're > talking at this speed, it's horrible... > Say that Java is cross plataform is just a bad joke. The only solution for cross plataform is to have only one plataform. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:30:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12659 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004131533.RAA00491@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: <38F5E296.D8C8014C@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 05:07:02 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:33:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > And more, in Spain piracy is the rule, and I still don't know if I like it > > or not :o > > Hmm... > I don't know what you mean ... > > Visual Basic isn't real BASIC and it's still a lot of useful for prototyping and > > to build simple applications. Pascal isn't worst than Java or C++ or other > > high level languages. The worst is that it's dead, I think Delphi doesn't have > > a future ... > > How can you work out that VB isn't real BASIC? It isn't real good old basic with number lines :) 10 REM I like number lines All syntaxis is changed and a lot of new stuff it's added. Only a few instructions share the same name. And perhaps it manteins and improves the idea of be easy to use. Bill Gates and some other people created BASIC (or perhaps more likely some other people and Bill Gates). Microsoft started with BASIC, perhaps MS isn't as bad at all ;) > > Also, Pascal *is* much worse than Java or C++. And Ada takes all the good > things out of Pascal and C++ - and then merges all the bad things together. > I *hate* Ada. And I have to use it day in, day out. :-/ > This is still another programmer war (like Linux vs MS): Pascal vs C. Or Amiga vs PC, or ... whatever... I think there are too many of this wars. > > For the kind of software (slow software) the companies are producing I don't > > thing they need C or assembler, Pascal or Java are good enough. BTW I don't > > think they use C or assembler anymore. That good old days when all games were > > wrotten in assembler. I still can remember how easy they were to understand > > while debugging for searching for the life variable ..., ahh, it remembers me > > this happy childhood days .... ;) > > Me too. I used to have a Multiface II for my CPC. Basically a hardware > debugger. Ah, it was great. =) > :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:31:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12670 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:31:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5E7DD.46189E8B@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:29:33 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... References: <200004131522.RAA15285@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Anyone remember GW-BASIC for the PC? :o > > > :) > When I bought my second computer, an Olivetti PC clone, I only have a single > 3.5 inch floppy with MS-DOS 3.2, GW-BASIC and DEBUG, what do you think was the > first thing I do? ;) Just run GW-BASIC. Later I run DEBUG. And a lot of later > I bought my first videogames. Pretty much the same here - though the PC wasn't mine, but my friends. A 286 Intertan computer running at 12MHz. Heh. :) I remember when he bought his SoundBlaster 2.0. Played Lemmings and was very impressed. Also, we hacked "Fire and Ice" to get that to work (checked for a 386 even though it had no 32-bit instructions!). That was cool. :) > > The idea behind Java should make it the language of the future. The actual > > implementation doesn't. Cross-platform languages are good - but when you're > > talking at this speed, it's horrible... > > Say that Java is cross plataform is just a bad joke. The only solution for > cross plataform is to have only one plataform. I used to think the same about Java, but my mind has been changed. Cross-platform is great - if you can compile natively for that machine. If you require a virtual machine (an emulator) to make it work then the speed will be poor. Or, at least, comparatively poor. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:39:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12714 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: Near 1000 Postings From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <00036526600f6e04_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:40:24 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, I have currently 979 DYNAREC messages in my folder! Any idea how to celebrate the 1000 messages mark? -- M.I.Ke "The chain which can be yanked is not the eternal chain." -- G. Fitch --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:46:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12741 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5EB12.5F0CCC97@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:43:14 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > patches only a couple of days after it ships. This is terrible. Yes, we > > have the Internet - but we didn't use to and software didn't usually have > > bugs. Or, to be fair, have bugs which actually stopped the software from > > working. > > Ahh, the good old days of DOS, before people could routinely download a 15 > MB patch. And windows was scorned for being about as reliable as a > rainstorm in the sahara... Good old days of DOS, yes - but I was thinking earlier. To the times of 8-bit and 16-bit computers. And anyway, a rainstorm in the Sahara is pretty reliable. I can rely on it not to happen. :) > You have a personal beef against Linux? Linus molest you as a kid? =P Damn you! Damn! Just as I had manage to forget about it and remove the mental scars, you have to remind me! Damn you! ;) > The fact that it is hard for a beginner to pick up is not restricted to > it, it is a side effect of all Unices. However, that fact is also the > reason a large amount of its userbase uses it. Steep learning curves weed > out those who can't deal with it, and generally mean the system is more > likely to do what you want. I use Unix all day at work (Solaris on a Sparc Ultra 5). I don't want to put up with it when I go home. :) And as for steep learning curves meaning "the system is more likely to do what you want" - I don't believe that. I believe that it means that it's more difficult to do what you want - but you get a satisfying feeling afterwards because you got it to work. It's kind of like a game - a text-based adventure game, if you want. :)) > As for the h4x0rs, we all know your average skript kiddie has the IQ of a > roach, the steep learning curve forces them to the help channels earlier. > The questions they tend to ask have a nasty tendancy to get them > permabanned =) (How do I compile an eggdrop? How do I hack into Apache? > etc) So... how do I compile an eggdrop? ;) No, really. I don't want to know. :) > Though with the recent setups Redhat and others are coming up with, we're > getting more and more idiots running around. New people are good, but now > we're getting into the crowd that has no standards and doesn't want to > learn =/ Everyone should use the Debian distribution if you're to use Linux. It's a nice distribution in terms of the packaged software - and it's still a bugger to set up properly. :)) > Case in point, Enlightenment. The developers have no idea about how to > write a decent build process, they've come up with a window manager that > can take a minute to load on a BEEFED machine, and not only that, one that > crashes unpredictably. Problem is that it's called a decent release =/ Don't like it so much. If I use it at home (which I have done previously), then I use Gnome. Or KDE. I've never used FreeBSD. Not because I don't want to - mainly because I haven't had a copy of it to try out yet. I don't want to do it at the moment anyway - not enough time. :) > > Though I do like the idea that it's hard for a beginner to pick up. If you > > can pick it up, it shows you have some intelligence about you... :)) > > See above =) Ah, we agree. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 08:48:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12763 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5EB8F.EFB1A69A@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:45:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Near 1000 Postings References: <00036526600f6e04_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I have currently 979 DYNAREC messages in my folder! > Any idea how to celebrate the 1000 messages mark? Discuss something on-topic? ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:04:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12822 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5EF84.5319C780@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:02:12 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... References: <200004131533.RAA00491@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > > And more, in Spain piracy is the rule, and I still don't know if I like it > > > or not :o > > > > Hmm... > > I don't know what you mean ... Well, I don't completely agree with piracy - and I'm not completely behind it. I'm all for *selective* piracy. :) I didn't finish that sentence there - I meant to say more than "Hmm..." but I forgot. :o Anyway, speaking as someone into emulation, I can't really say "I'm against all piracy and it should be wiped out". I may, or may not have ROMs which I theoretically shouldn't have. Maybe. I'm not going to commit myself one way or the other on a public mailing list. ;) I don't go for pirated programs - stuff under 1-2 years old. I buy it. Generally. I have had copied programs before now - but if I use them on even a semi-regular basis, I buy them. It's only fair. Besides, games is the business I'm trying to get into. So if I don't support it myself, how can I expect others to? :o > > How can you work out that VB isn't real BASIC? > > It isn't real good old basic with number lines :) > > 10 REM I like number lines > > All syntaxis is changed and a lot of new stuff it's added. Only a few > instructions share the same name. And perhaps it manteins and improves the > idea of be easy to use. Bill Gates and some other people created BASIC (or > perhaps more likely some other people and Bill Gates). > Microsoft started with BASIC, perhaps MS isn't as bad at all ;) The only real instruction that I can think of that's been removed from BASIC is PRINT. I can't think of anything else. All the other commands I used to use are in. Except PEEK and POKE - but I don't believe they were part of BASIC. Just my version of it. > > Also, Pascal *is* much worse than Java or C++. And Ada takes all the good > > things out of Pascal and C++ - and then merges all the bad things together. > > I *hate* Ada. And I have to use it day in, day out. :-/ > > This is still another programmer war (like Linux vs MS): Pascal vs C. > > Or Amiga vs PC, or ... whatever... I think there are too many of this wars. Agreed, but in this case I'm in a very real situation to decide. I use Ada (Pascal basically) and C pretty much daily. I'm in a very good position to decide which is the better language. If one can do everything I want easily - and the other is more difficult, then one must be a worse language. If I can do something in one which I can't in the other, then one must be worse. Pascal loses. Ada loses by a looong way. When you get to Amiga vs PC, I have to wonder if this didn't die years ago - this is the first I've heard about it in years. It's stupid to argue about machines because each has it's own benefits and disadvantages. It isn't the case with Pascal and C - C can do everything that Pascal can - but not vice-versa. > > Me too. I used to have a Multiface II for my CPC. Basically a hardware > > debugger. Ah, it was great. =) > > :) What did you have before a PC - or was a PC your first computer (I think I remember you saying this)? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:11:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12842 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:11:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5F0CC.389ADADC@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:07:40 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Two things References: <00036526600f6e04_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F5EB8F.EFB1A69A@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, Debugging a program in hex (not ASM but *HEX*) on a Sparc isn't fun. But one thing is: this is a really scary high-endian machine. I always though that a real address such as 0034FED6 would be written like FED60034 in a high-endian and like 3400D6FE in a low-endian (or something like that, I can't be bothered remembering right now). But on this machine it's stored as I'd write it - 0034FED6. Scary! Neil. PS Bet you're wondering about the other thing now, aren't you? Haha! My plan worked! ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12974 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000365270842965d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:27:26 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> No, because the big problem is not how to "retranslate" the code but how to >> quickly identify if the code has been modified! >Split off each 4K (or less). If a write happens inside one of the 4K >blocks, mark it somewhere (you only need 1 bit to do this). If the IP gets >to that 4K then recompile. >If you can handle going back to translate code again, this shouldn't be a >problem. And it should be pretty damn fast too. OK, first of all we came up with a similar solution when discussing the paged TransMap some time ago... But this is only half of the job, because you don't mention that you not only have to modify the memory handlers to behave that way, but you also have to generate the code for any instruction that writes to a constant RAM address. -- M.I.Ke "If God lived on Earth, people would knock out all His windows." -- Yiddish saying --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12979 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F5718A.AEAD0D00@est.fib.upc.es> Message-Id: <0003652732d01627_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F5718A.AEAD0D00@est.fib.upc.es> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:39:20 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Actually I'm blind as a mole (about -9.5 on both eyes!)... >I only -3.5 and -4.5 :) Lucky you! I could even ride a bike without glasses on with these specs! >I thought that mail was for free ;) Who said that? ;-) -- M.I.Ke Uncle Ed's Rule of Thumb: Never use your thumb for a rule. You'll either hit it with a hammmer or get a splinter in it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12987 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004131205.OAA19856@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036527473cc7eb_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004131205.OAA19856@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:45:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I was reading last night Marat's How to and I saw 'static recompilation'. >But he was naming in fact 'static compilation'. The same happens when >he says 'dynamic recompilation' but really is 'dynamic compilation'. Even the "emulation god" Marat isn't perfect. The worst error I found was that 6502 was listed as an example for big endian processors. Marat should know that it's little endian because he wrote a 6502 emulator... I mentioned the 6809 as a better example for a big endian 8-bit processor, since then the docs feature my favourite 8-bit CPU ;-) -- M.I.Ke Just remember: when you go to court, you are trusting your fate to twelve people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12998 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Emu Top 100 From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F5718E.B330CC63@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000365272a6f305a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F5718E.B330CC63@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:37:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I agree, it's not a good situation. That's why I'm getting back into the >*writing* of emulators - I can do something useful. Which is more than the >other 99.999% of people out there in the "scene". :-/ Shit, I haven't written an emulator yet... -- M.I.Ke "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm converting my calendar watch from Julian to Gregorian." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13015 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004131255.OAA10165@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000365274b668428_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004131255.OAA10165@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:46:13 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> > I have thought a name: Invasores (Invaders in Spanish) but I think better >> > use one peoples agrees with. >> Well, there was a small vote some time ago and the name that won was >> "Space8". The name doesn't matter to me, though. >Ah. I forgot it. Oh, but I want a Spanish name ;)) I think "Invasores" sounds better! ;-) -- M.I.Ke Everybody is somebody else's weirdo. -- Dykstra --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13010 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F5D086.23EF2105@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000365276afdaa76_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> <000365120429d1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49A54.30BCDFC6@eurocopter.de> <00036512ae0ef1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56B86.D0C2273A@eurocopter.de> <0003651f33ef615d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F5D086.23EF2105@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:55:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Good. That means you can understand my whole humour level. :) Really? I doubt that... >The ironic thing is that at the time we were practising a new stance - >which allegedly stopped this sort of thing. But... nope. Remember, a swift >punch in the knackers (there we go, TRUE British slang) will often put you >on the floor. :o Too true... New German lesson ;-) The most precise translation of "knackers" will be "Nüsse" (lit. "nuts"), but you could also say "Eier" (lit. "eggs", Brit. "balls") or "Familienjuwelen" ("familiy treasure"). Do I have to mention that this is slang too? ;-) >Nor me. I've a feeling it's called a "Cricket box" in Britain, but I'm not >even sure about THAT! :o Makes sense since cricket balls should be hard. But what about bugby? >Thermal underwear? I'm not going to ask. ;) Nope, "Eier" (eggs) means "balls" in English. The "Eierwärmer" is a joke because you can have certain cloth to keep boild eggs warm ;-) -- M.I.Ke Man is the only animal that can remain on friendly terms with the victims he intends to eat until he eats them. -- Samuel Butler --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13019 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <002101bfa4d3$c809bf80$ce21883e@ben> Message-Id: <00036526ba194530_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> <000365159f472f39_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa4d3$c809bf80$ce21883e@ben> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:05:35 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'd love to, I find the whole subject fascinating. The thing is, it's all a >tad pointless for a 3.5mhz CPU. On my P2-266 SpectrEm-DR uses about 5% of >the cpus power. Windows eats the other 95%? ;-) >If it was rewritten properly I think you could probably >halve that. When I benchmarked Z80, which is written in C, I think it >managed about 10% cpu usage at 3.5mhz. It just doesn't seem worth the effort >for CPUs that are intended to run at such teeny clock rates. Yeah, my opinion is still that using a dynarec for 8-bit CPUs doesn't help that much. The real speed increase should lie in 68K and RISC emulation. >Maybe I should write a NeoGeo emulator. They run their Z80s at 6mhz, don't >they? We might be able to get a worthwhile performance increase with that... Hmm, NeoGeo also also has a 68K and you and Neil want to write a dynarec for that one..., just an idea ;-) But can a dynarec be used for a secondary CPU that is used for sound? Sorry if this question should be a bit silly but I'm not into multi-processor systems, especially when the CPU is used for SFX. >Mind, saying that... Simplification is often advantageous. You need to >define a few simple terms, which are bound to be a bit inaccurate because >simple terms can't describe complex ideas, then you take your terms, and you >define them. This just seems to make more sense to me than having a million >different paragraph length descriptions for each and every possible >technique or idea ever. True, that's why we need new and better defined terminology. I just want to demonstrate how sloppy our current terms are. >Translation instead of compilation is an idea, I definately prefer translation, or more precise binary translation. Especially "static recompilation" sounds a bit weird, because you could also think of it as taking the original source code and "recompiling" it on a different platform. >though... only it doesn't allow the idea of repeated translation (support >for self-modification) to come in... NG's answer would be: "retranslation" ;-) >That's the one! It's a nice page, that. I found it very interesting. Thanks. The small page took more time to compile that it seems, but I felt there was lack of a good reference so I just created one. The greatest problem was to find all the info and the code. >So how >come you didn't describe the other dynarec cores as lazy code translators? I guess it's just because there aren't so many sources listed yet. In German school you learn that repetition of words is bad, so I didn't use the term "dynarec" or "dynamic recompiler" for every entry. If there would be more sources I might have reused "lazy translation" as well. >That was the reason I thought it was a specialist term, you see... Nope, it isn't (at least not that I know of). I could have written "on-demand translation" as well. But it's nice that you like the term ;-) -- M.I.Ke Yield to Temptation ... it may not pass your way again. -- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13034 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F570DD.C3948D90@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003652726957663_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> <000365159f472f39_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F570DD.C3948D90@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:35:55 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I don't like Prolog either. OK, try a shorter "program" in any other language: s --> np, vp. np --> det, n. vp --> tv, n. det --> [the]. det --> [a]. n --> [dog]. n --> [cat]. tv --> [chases]. :- s([the,dog,chases,a,cat],[]). yes And I even didn't let it build a parse tree yet! ;-) -- M.I.Ke "They're unfriendly, which is fortunate, really. They'd be difficult to like." -- Avon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 09:57:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13038 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036526ee549571_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:20:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > supports all my hardware Not my soundcard: Yamaha Waveforce 192XG :-( Runs prefect with BeOS... > Documentation is somewhat spotty Documentation? > OS under constant development Didn't I read that above? ;-) > Netscape is extremely unstable (it crash this much in NT?) I haven't used it on Linux much, but it crashes often with HP-UX and on NT you often have to log out and in again because Netscape doesn't react to mouse clicks on links or keyboard commands anymore :-( > Don't think it supports any PCI soundcards yet See above :-( The other problem is that there are too many distributions which aren't that compatible as most think... Also I don't like monolithic kernels that much. BeOS shows the pros of a microkernel. >Functional Languages: >One of the two courses I took at UT was Intro to CS... taught in Haskell. >I passed that one by the skin of my teeth. That language must die, along >with all of it's children, parents, relatives, and acquaintances. I think Haskell is similar to Miranda and Gopher, which aren't that bad. These languages are good for rapid prototyping of small math algorithms, but certainly not for large scale (or even medium scale) projects. BTW, blame John McCarthy, who invented LISP, the first functional language. I even saw him once giving a talk about "Lemmings". The original topic should have been what knowledge for AI can be found when a program would be written that can solve the computer game Lemmings. But he ended up discussion certain levels with the audience... >While you're at it, get rid of BASIC and Pascal, please =P Some BASIC dialects aren't that bad. BBC BASIC even has a real inline assembler! And some BASIC compilers for the Atari ST were said to produce better code than most C compilers. Pascal is good to learn a bit about structued programming, but as soon as I knew C I thought you had to much typing work in Pascal. Who wants to write "BEGIN ... END" if "{ ... }" is enough? ;-) -- M.I.Ke "Life is like a buffet; it's not good but there's plenty of it." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 10:11:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13104 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:11:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:11:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: <00036527473cc7eb_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I was reading last night Marat's How to and I saw 'static recompilation'. > >But he was naming in fact 'static compilation'. The same happens when > >he says 'dynamic recompilation' but really is 'dynamic compilation'. > Even the "emulation god" Marat isn't perfect. That's very true, in addition to his coding style being highly unreadable and inefficient as hell. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 10:32:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13196 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Near 1000 Postings From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F5EB8F.EFB1A69A@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003652782f683e6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <00036526600f6e04_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F5EB8F.EFB1A69A@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:01:45 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Discuss something on-topic? ;)) Then could you please remind me what the topic was? ;-) -- M.I.Ke Horses are forbidden to eat fire hydrants in Marshalltown, Iowa. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 10:32:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13204 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Two things From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F5F0CC.389ADADC@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036527cf8d029a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <00036526600f6e04_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F5EB8F.EFB1A69A@eurocopter.de> <38F5F0CC.389ADADC@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:23:10 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Debugging a program in hex (not ASM but *HEX*) on a Sparc isn't fun. I've analyzed bootsector viruses on the Atari ST that way ;-) >But >one thing is: this is a really scary high-endian machine. I always though >that a real address such as 0034FED6 would be written like FED60034 in a >high-endian and like 3400D6FE in a low-endian (or something like that, I >can't be bothered remembering right now). But on this machine it's stored >as I'd write it - 0034FED6. Scary! Erm, you don't seem to know the difference between big and little endian... When you have the value 0034FED6 on the display then * big endian stores exactly that 0034FED6 * little endian stores D6FE3400 -- M.I.Ke One learns to itch where one can scratch. -- Ernest Bramah --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 10:47:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13265 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003652829793a29_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:48:19 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >[Marat] >That's very true, in addition to his coding style being highly unreadable >and inefficient as hell. Yeah, his 6502 core uses far too many macros and I don't even want to know about the Z80 core... -- M.I.Ke Food for thought is no substitute for the real thing. -- Walt Kelly, "Putluck Pogo" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 11:26:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA13403 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:26:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 06:36:51 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Marat cores, endianness, kernels, linux In-Reply-To: <0003652829793a29_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Most situations one hears about on the NES involving Marat's 6502 core run something like this: "Wrote a new CPU core to replace Marat's. Doubled the compatability list, removed CPU core from the top half of the profile." I'm not going to start on how crappy ines/unix is, as it would only get me in a bad mood =P Endianness: I believe you meant that, given the 32 bit value 003456FD, it would be stored like so: 0 1 2 3 memory address 00 34 56 FD MSB first FD 56 34 00 LSB first 34 00 FD 56 PDP order =) The usual way of describing these is how 'UNIX' would look after being read in from memory and written as a number. The possible outputs are UNIX MSB first XINU LSB first NUXI PDP Kernels Anyone able to enlighten me as to the supposed pros and cons of microkerneels and macrokernels? Linux distributions Redhat: nonstandard runtime environment anal-retentive package management package mechanism isn't all that simple new packages aren't always avaliable Debian: Fairly normal GNU environment package manager generally behaves as expected packages are cpio archives new packages are usually avaliable SuSE: never used Slackware: damn near impossible to upgrade steep learning curve manual package management Personally, my system is a bit of a hybrid between Debian and Slackware. I use the Slackware style if sources are easily avaliable and the package isn't too huge. (recompiling libc and gcc are not my idea of fun, did them once already) The first install I ever did was Slackware, but found out about upgrading when I tried going from kernel 1.2.13 to 2.0.x... gave up after 4 tries and got a nice copy of Redhat. Somewhere between RH3 and RH4 I developed a distaste for it, and moved to Debian. Haven't come across any showstopper annoyances yet... John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 14:27:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA14195 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:27:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Two things In-Reply-To: <00036527cf8d029a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >one thing is: this is a really scary high-endian machine. I always though You mean big and little endian, not "high" and "low". > >that a real address such as 0034FED6 would be written like FED60034 in a > >high-endian and like 3400D6FE in a low-endian (or something like that, I > >can't be bothered remembering right now). But on this machine it's stored > >as I'd write it - 0034FED6. Scary! Um... no, it'd be more like d6fe3400 0034fed6 -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 15:49:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14511 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:49:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Marat cores, endianness, kernels, linux From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003652c5c232373_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:48:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Most situations one hears about on the NES involving Marat's 6502 core run >something like this: "Wrote a new CPU core to replace Marat's. Doubled the >compatability list, removed CPU core from the top half of the profile." >I'm not going to start on how crappy ines/unix is, as it would only get me >in a bad mood =P Hehe ;-) >Endianness: I believe you meant that, given the 32 bit value 003456FD, it >would be stored like so: >0 1 2 3 memory address >00 34 56 FD MSB first >FD 56 34 00 LSB first >34 00 FD 56 PDP order =) Yeah, I read that those Programmable Data Processors had a strange byte ordering... >The usual way of describing these is how 'UNIX' would look after being >read in from memory and written as a number. The possible outputs are >UNIX MSB first >XINU LSB first >NUXI PDP Haven't seen that example before but it's very nice ;-) >Kernels >Anyone able to enlighten me as to the supposed pros and cons of >microkerneels and macrokernels? The advantages of a microkernel are: * you don't have to recompile your kernel to add a primitive feature (Linux anyone?) * the microkernel only loads those extensions and drivers that you really need * you can change about any driver during runtime (the only thing in BeOS that cannot be changed without rebooting is the graphics driver) * since the microkernel only performs memory and process management, therefore the whole rest of the system (and that's quite a lot) has far better multi-tasking, unlike Unix where writing a large core file blocks the whole machine for a few seconds. The advantages of a macrokernel are probably that you are able to adapt it to what you need, which is about the only advantage I can think of. Please correct me if I should be wrong, but I certainly prefer microkernel systems. I liked that idea when I first heard how OS/9 works - no not Mac OS 9, but that old system by Microware. >Linux distributions >Redhat: nonstandard runtime environment > anal-retentive package management > package mechanism isn't all that simple > new packages aren't always avaliable I once tried a modified Redhat which wasn't that bad, but it was rather small (got it on a magazine CD) and was lacking XEmacs and LaTeX, so those things I normally use on Linux were missing... >Debian: Fairly normal GNU environment > package manager generally behaves as expected > packages are cpio archives > new packages are usually avaliable Isn't Debian even GNU only? I think that's why they didn't have KDE in the beginning. >SuSE: never used I think SuSE is the most popular in Germany, but they seem to have a very non -standard directory structure and even change that from distribution to distribution. Eg. they create the link to the X server in /var/X11R6/bin/X the Redhat derivate I tried had it as /etc/X Since configuration files like XF86Config and fstab are in /etc I think it's a good place to put the X server link. I wonder who came up with /var/X11R6/ bin/X? I guess the good thing about SuSE is the support. I never needed it direktly, but the have a good online database to find out which hardware is supported and where to find the drivers. >Slackware: damn near impossible to upgrade > steep learning curve > manual package management Nomen est omen? >Personally, my system is a bit of a hybrid between Debian and Slackware. I >use the Slackware style if sources are easily avaliable and the package >isn't too huge. (recompiling libc and gcc are not my idea of fun, did them >once already) The first install I ever did was Slackware, but found out >about upgrading when I tried going from kernel 1.2.13 to 2.0.x... gave up >after 4 tries and got a nice copy of Redhat. Somewhere between RH3 and >RH4 I developed a distaste for it, and moved to Debian. Haven't come >across any showstopper annoyances yet... So your recommendation would be Debian. I think it's even a relatively cheap distrubution. I mean, SuSE comes with 6 (in words six) CDs now and costs DEM 98 (about $49) and the update costs DEM 79 (about $40). I think even the BeOS upgrade isn't much more expensive, and that's certainly a commercial and not a "free" OS. Wait, the professional version of BeOS is commercial but the personal editon is free of course... -- M.I.Ke "Calvin Coolidge was the greatest man who ever came out of Plymouth Corner, Vermont." -- Clarence Darrow --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 16:01:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14561 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: 1000 Postings From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <0003652c864399e6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:00:35 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com BTW, we crossed the mark of 1000 postings... Yeah, I know that senseless messages like this one help us to reach the 2000 mark even faster ;-) -- M.I.Ke Real Programs don't use shared text. Otherwise, how can they use functions for scratch space after they are finished calling them? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 16:02:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14576 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:02:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: Linux Distributions From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <0003652c94b77287_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:04:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com If you are fed up with all the different Linux distributions then you have to read about the BeDope Dstribution ;-) http://www.bedope.com/stories/0089.html And about obtaining and installing that distribution ;-) http://www.bedope.com/stories/0090.html -- M.I.Ke Your conscience never stops you from doing anything. It just stops you from enjoying it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 16:04:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14586 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 1000 Postings Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:07:34 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: <8okcfskmtcc7kcurbhf7o55riafnq3ecee@4ax.com> References: <0003652c864399e6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <0003652c864399e6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:00:35 +0200, Michael Koenig wrote: >BTW, we crossed the mark of 1000 postings... >Yeah, I know that senseless messages like this one help us to reach the 2000 >mark even faster ;-) You won't find me contributing to these off-topic postings. :) -- Jack ---- "Remember: The Internet, of course, is more than a place to find pictures of people having sex with dogs." - Time magazine, June 1995 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 16:18:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14638 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:18:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 1000 Postings From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <8okcfskmtcc7kcurbhf7o55riafnq3ecee@4ax.com> Message-Id: <0003652ca2941541_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003652c864399e6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <8okcfskmtcc7kcurbhf7o55riafnq3ecee@4ax.com> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:08:30 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >You won't find me contributing to these off-topic postings. :) Then the sentence above is a paradoxon ;-) -- M.I.Ke Real programmers disdain structured programming. Structured programming is for compulsive neurotics who were prematurely toilet- trained. They wear neckties and carefully line up pencils on otherwise clear desks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 16:22:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14654 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <008001bfa59f$25beaf20$4e33883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <38F41782.D1156933@eurocopter.de> <0003650dd8262e33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F465F6.8E00829D@eurocopter.de> <000365120429d1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F49A54.30BCDFC6@eurocopter.de> <00036512ae0ef1ce_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56B86.D0C2273A@eurocopter.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: FWIW... Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:34:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > >But the "Erotik Messe" is now on. I may have to go along - just for > > >research purposes, obviously. :)) > > > > Research, on what topic? > > Erm... I'm not going to touch that one with a 9ft barge-pole. :) 9 FEET?!? My my... quite an ego you've got there, Neil! ;) Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 16:22:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14666 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <008101bfa59f$272e6bc0$4e33883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> <000365159f472f39_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa4d3$c809bf80$ce21883e@ben> <00036526ba194530_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:16:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I'd love to, I find the whole subject fascinating. The thing is, it's all a > >tad pointless for a 3.5mhz CPU. On my P2-266 SpectrEm-DR uses about 5% of > >the cpus power. > > Windows eats the other 95%? ;-) I wouldn't know, because I never actually thought about this before! The profiler assumes it's got the CPU all to itself, and just ignores background tasks like windows. I wonder how many extra % I could shave off the thing by actually trying to run it in proper DOS... > >If it was rewritten properly I think you could probably > >halve that. When I benchmarked Z80, which is written in C, I think it > >managed about 10% cpu usage at 3.5mhz. It just doesn't seem worth the effort > >for CPUs that are intended to run at such teeny clock rates. > > Yeah, my opinion is still that using a dynarec for 8-bit CPUs doesn't help > that much. The real speed increase should lie in 68K and RISC emulation. Yep. I'm even a bit worried about the performance gain for a 68k. A 12mhz machine (NeoGeo, possibly CPS1, some of the taito stuff) would probably start to be worth the effort. A 20+mhz 32bit RISC CPU, of course, would just zoom along! > >Maybe I should write a NeoGeo emulator. They run their Z80s at 6mhz, don't > >they? We might be able to get a worthwhile performance increase with that... > > Hmm, NeoGeo also also has a 68K and you and Neil want to write a dynarec for > that one..., just an idea ;-) > But can a dynarec be used for a secondary CPU that is used for sound? Sorry > if this question should be a bit silly but I'm not into multi-processor > systems, especially when the CPU is used for SFX. Try downloading the 0.37b1 release of EMU+ (MAME with a built in overclocker). I played around with underclocking the NeoGeo CPU, and the only effect you get is that the sound goes just like it does if your CPU isn't powerful enough to keep up with the game and the frame rate starts to drop below 40ish fps. Everything seems a bit drawn out, but it works fine. However, when I tried the same with the Williams hardware (Narc, T2, MK, etc.) it reset the machine almost instantly. The ROM code seems to be very picky about getting correctly timed responses from the sound CPUs. I'm not sure how accurate it needs to be, but half a mhz was enough to cause the reset (and this may help to explain the distinct lack of the rumoured dynarec Williams emulator, that and the fact that someone had added an extra '0' onto the end of the TMS CPUs clock speed at some stage!). Given that I reckon that two transpiled (for want of a better word!) CPUs aren't likely to get out of sync by more than a few hundred cycles, there shouldn't be any problems at all. If there are, it's always possible to put in opcode by opcode cycle checkers, although that will impact performance pretty nastily. That sort of thing is another reason SpectrEm-DR's Z80 took up 5% of my CPU resources... > >Mind, saying that... Simplification is often advantageous. You need to > >define a few simple terms, which are bound to be a bit inaccurate because > >simple terms can't describe complex ideas, then you take your terms, and you > >define them. This just seems to make more sense to me than having a million > >different paragraph length descriptions for each and every possible > >technique or idea ever. > > True, that's why we need new and better defined terminology. I just want to > demonstrate how sloppy our current terms are. Indeed they are, but they're short and sharp and make up really cool sounding buzzwords! 'Dynarec' rolls off the tongue a lot more easily than "Native machine code emitting binary translator" ;) If we started calling it that, we'd have to stop being l33t, d00d, and we all know what a tragedy that would be for emulation... > >Translation instead of compilation is an idea, > > I definately prefer translation, or more precise binary translation. > Especially "static recompilation" sounds a bit weird, because you could also > think of it as taking the original source code and "recompiling" it on a > different platform. Yes, "static recompilation" has always bothered me. It's all a bit oxymoronic, really. If you're going to do a one off compile, you can hardly start recompiling self-modified code, because that's dynamic. > >though... only it doesn't allow the idea of repeated translation (support > >for self-modification) to come in... > > NG's answer would be: "retranslation" ;-) Indeed, I think it was when we discussed this point. However, we both quickly decided that "retranslation" was a cruddy description, because... erm... I've forgotten. Neil? Why did we decide it was a cruddy description? > >That's the one! It's a nice page, that. I found it very interesting. > > Thanks. The small page took more time to compile that it seems, but I felt > there was lack of a good reference so I just created one. The greatest > problem was to find all the info and the code. I'll bet it took bloody ages! Resources on the net are few and far between, unfortunately. Does this group have a FAQ or anything, because that page would be an excellent starting point for new joiner-upers. And I'd be able to find it more easily the next time I lose the URL! ;) > >So how > >come you didn't describe the other dynarec cores as lazy code translators? > > I guess it's just because there aren't so many sources listed yet. > In German school you learn that repetition of words is bad, so I didn't use > the term "dynarec" or "dynamic recompiler" for every entry. If there would be > more sources I might have reused "lazy translation" as well. Ah, right. Fair enough. > >That was the reason I thought it was a specialist term, you see... > > Nope, it isn't (at least not that I know of). I could have written "on-demand > translation" as well. But it's nice that you like the term ;-) Indeed I do! :) > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 16:27:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14689 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:27:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 1000 Postings Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:30:59 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <0003652c864399e6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <8okcfskmtcc7kcurbhf7o55riafnq3ecee@4ax.com> <0003652ca2941541_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <0003652ca2941541_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:08:30 +0200, Michael Koenig wrote: >>You won't find me contributing to these off-topic postings. :) > >Then the sentence above is a paradoxon ;-) As it was meant to be. :p >Real programmers disdain structured programming. Structured >programming is for compulsive neurotics who were prematurely toilet- >trained. They wear neckties and carefully line up pencils on otherwise >clear desks. I think you should change your .sig to: "Beginning programmers..." After 20 years of programming, of dealing with other people's tossed of hacks, and of returning to code I've previously written, the use of structured programming techniques and of anally self documenting code is now the only way I'll program. I can show you some old assembly code where one function runs to about 10 pages and bx is set somewhere in the middle of the first page and then not used until the next to last page. That I will never do again. -- Jack ---- The road to truth and enlightenment is long... be sure to bring a snack and something to drink - Seen on a bumper sticker --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 17:11:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14871 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:11:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <008101bfa59f$272e6bc0$4e33883e@ben> Message-Id: <0003652d87da60a4_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <38F2D508.D532B576@eurocopter.de> <007701bfa409$0675af20$6d1f883e@ben> <38F418D5.CB7B221@eurocopter.de> <0003650de00a03c1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004b01bfa4ad$5bba59a0$901d883e@ben> <000365159f472f39_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa4d3$c809bf80$ce21883e@ben> <00036526ba194530_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008101bfa59f$272e6bc0$4e33883e@ben> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:12:37 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yep. I'm even a bit worried about the performance gain for a 68k. A 12mhz >machine (NeoGeo, possibly CPS1, some of the taito stuff) would probably >start to be worth the effort. The performance gain for 68k should be quite good since you are able to predecode the big endian immediates and addresses. >A 20+mhz 32bit RISC CPU, of course, would just zoom along! Indeed ;-) >Try downloading the 0.37b1 release of EMU+ (MAME with a built in >overclocker). I played around with underclocking the NeoGeo CPU, and the >only effect you get is that the sound goes just like it does if your CPU >isn't powerful enough to keep up with the game and the frame rate starts to >drop below 40ish fps. Everything seems a bit drawn out, but it works fine. It seems that 16-bit systems aren't that timing sensitive. >However, when I tried the same with the Williams hardware (Narc, T2, MK, >etc.) it reset the machine almost instantly. The ROM code seems to be very >picky about getting correctly timed responses from the sound CPUs. I'm not >sure how accurate it needs to be, but half a mhz was enough to cause the >reset Guess why NB makes his dynarec so timing sensitive ;-) >(and this may help to explain the distinct lack of the rumoured >dynarec Williams emulator, that and the fact that someone had added an extra >'0' onto the end of the TMS CPUs clock speed at some stage!). TMS? I thought the Williams system had a 6809. >Given that I reckon that two transpiled (for want of a better word!) CPUs >aren't likely to get out of sync by more than a few hundred cycles, there >shouldn't be any problems at all. If there are, it's always possible to put >in opcode by opcode cycle checkers, although that will impact performance >pretty nastily. I think NB's solution is quite good. The test if you have a cycle timer underflow only needs one clock cycle per instruction, and the following conditional jump to the instruction specific return code should be sorted out completely by the branch predictor anyway! >Indeed they are, but they're short and sharp and make up really cool >sounding buzzwords! 'Dynarec' rolls off the tongue a lot more easily than >"Native machine code emitting binary translator" ;) That's the reason why I still use that term, and because it's already well- esablished. >Yes, "static recompilation" has always bothered me. It's all a bit >oxymoronic, really. If you're going to do a one off compile, you can hardly >start recompiling self-modified code, because that's dynamic. That's because "recompiling" is often used in the sense of "recompile" a binary on a different platform, than NG's interpretation of "repetetive translation". Another reason why I don't like putting to much sense on that prefix "re" because three are two totally different interpretations. >I'll bet it took bloody ages! Not ages, but surely months... >Resources on the net are few and far between, unfortunately. Yeah, and you still have to sieve the good ones and leave the bad behind. When I now do a search for "dynamic recompilation" on Altavista or any other search engine I know about 95% of the listed links. >Does this group have a FAQ or anything, because that page >would be an excellent starting point for new joiner-upers. And I'd be able >to find it more easily the next time I lose the URL! ;) We don't have one yet, but I might write one when I'm very bored... I think I already know someone who can do a Spanish version ;-) -- M.I.Ke Time flies like an arrow Fruit flies like a banana --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 17:25:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14917 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 1000 Postings From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003652db8035174_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003652c864399e6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <8okcfskmtcc7kcurbhf7o55riafnq3ecee@4ax.com> <0003652ca2941541_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:26:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >>Then the sentence above is a paradoxon ;-) >As it was meant to be. :p That's what I thought. >I think you should change your .sig to: "Beginning programmers..." Actually my mailer takes these lines from a fortunes file so even I don't know what it says until I receive my copy. >After 20 years of programming, of dealing with other people's tossed >of hacks, and of returning to code I've previously written, the use of >structured programming techniques and of anally self documenting code >is now the only way I'll program. Can help sometimes ;-) >I can show you some old assembly code where one function runs to about >10 pages and bx is set somewhere in the middle of the first page and >then not used until the next to last page. That I will never do again. I took a look at my ST virus killer (written in 68K assembler) some time ago and in some parts I really wasn't sure what I must have thought when I programmed it. >Jack -- M.I.Ke Beware of computerized fortune-tellers! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 13 18:01:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA15048 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: tarquin@austin.rr.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:12:31 -0700 (PDT) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Marat cores, endianness, kernels, linux In-Reply-To: <0003652c5c232373_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Michael Koenig wrote: > >UNIX MSB first > >XINU LSB first > >NUXI PDP > > Haven't seen that example before but it's very nice ;-) I don't quite remember where I saw it, I know I've seen it referred to in the Jargon file... > The advantages of a microkernel are: > * you don't have to recompile your kernel to add a primitive feature (Linux > anyone?) Now that Linux supports modules most of these have gone away =) > * the microkernel only loads those extensions and drivers that you really > need my printer port, sound card, network card, and the fat FS modules tend to stay loaded. The scsi subsystem only loads when I burn =P > * you can change about any driver during runtime (the only thing in BeOS that > cannot be changed without rebooting is the graphics driver) Haven't quite checked up on everything, but almost all of the main kernel drivers can be compiled as modules. If you use an initial ramdisk image, you can even make the drivers for the root disk and root filesystem as modules... > * since the microkernel only performs memory and process management, > therefore the whole rest of the system (and that's quite a lot) has far > better multi-tasking, unlike Unix where writing a large core file blocks the > whole machine for a few seconds. True, but I wouldn't exactly want the HD drivers getting interrupted to keep other processes running... It also depends on the magnitude of the writes, pine had a nasty habit of holding up one CPU while it dealt with a 30MB mailbox... > The advantages of a macrokernel are probably that you are able to adapt it to > what you need, which is about the only advantage I can think of. I believe part of the argument was that things could be more tightly integrated, leading to performance increases... > Please correct me if I should be wrong, but I certainly prefer microkernel > systems. I liked that idea when I first heard how OS/9 works - no not Mac OS > 9, but that old system by Microware. Not familiar with this one... > >Debian: Fairly normal GNU environment > > package manager generally behaves as expected > > packages are cpio archives > > new packages are usually avaliable > > Isn't Debian even GNU only? I think that's why they didn't have KDE in the > beginning. Debian does get a bit anal about using only free software. They do however provide the packages for them, but they have to live in a seperate tree on the main server. > So your recommendation would be Debian. I think it's even a relatively cheap > distrubution. All distributions are cheap =) Most all of them offer the expensive versions, that come with manuals, full phone support, etc. Cheapbytes (www.cheapbytes.com) usually has somethign in the $2-8 range avaliable, and all of them allow you to download it if you are so inclined. Other than that, Debian's install was fairly painless, my issues with them usually occur because I have that (un?)healthy C programmer habit of wanting to screw with everything down to the last bit. Software wise, Linux has an edge on the games thanks to Loki. I don't believe they officially support the BSD flavors, and their current list of completed ports runs Civilization: Call to Power Myth 2 Railroad Tycoon 2 Some Solitaire game Heretic 2 Heroes 3 Quake 3 Arena Heavy Gear 2 and they have SimCity 3000 on the way... They're doing wonders for the normal usability... the big software packages only target the machines with games, the games only go to the machines with low end users, the low end users stick to doze... now we have games for the machines with high end users =) > I mean, SuSE comes with 6 (in words six) CDs now and costs DEM 98 (about $49) > and the update costs DEM 79 (about $40). I think even the BeOS upgrade isn't > much more expensive, and that's certainly a commercial and not a "free" OS. > Wait, the professional version of BeOS is commercial but the personal editon > is free of course... I got RedHat on 6 CD's once, usually those packs are one or two for the main OS install, then freezes of metalab.unc.edu, xfree86.org, kernel.org, etc... > -- > M.I.Ke > > "Calvin Coolidge was the greatest man who ever came out of Plymouth > Corner, Vermont." > -- Clarence Darrow John Allensworth --- tarquin@austin.rr.com -- Reaperman/ReaperSMS Author of XtraWeapons (except the homing missile, eject, and throwing axe) Stanknes forever http://www.parodius.com/~tarquin Real Programmers think better when playing Adventure or Rogue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 00:52:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA16088 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:52:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Two things In-Reply-To: <38F5F0CC.389ADADC@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Debugging a program in hex (not ASM but *HEX*) on a Sparc isn't fun. But > one thing is: this is a really scary high-endian machine. I always though > that a real address such as 0034FED6 would be written like FED60034 in a > high-endian and like 3400D6FE in a low-endian (or something like that, I > can't be bothered remembering right now). But on this machine it's stored > as I'd write it - 0034FED6. Scary! Again, you mean big endian/little endian. ;-) I don't recall any of the work I did on the Sparc causing this kind of grief. Are you sure it isn't the debugger playing tricks on you? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 01:04:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16124 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:04:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:04:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <0003652d87da60a4_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >only effect you get is that the sound goes just like it does if your CPU > >isn't powerful enough to keep up with the game and the frame rate starts to > >drop below 40ish fps. Everything seems a bit drawn out, but it works fine. > It seems that 16-bit systems aren't that timing sensitive. You shouldn't make statements like that! ;-) Timing sensitivty has zero connection with the "bitness" of the CPU - it's ENTIRELY software and architecture dependent. Well over half of the Genesis games are timing critical. You'll cause sprites to appear, disappear, and flicker if you get off by so much as a cycle! Same deal with the Atari System 1 games like Marble Madness, Road Blasters, and Toobin' especially (well, it's not system 1 but still has the same issue). I don't know what this "overclocking" thing is for MAME, but it's a horrid name. In Retrocade if we want to increase the framerate we can just increase it, but it doesn't change any of the internal clocking or timing. > >etc.) it reset the machine almost instantly. The ROM code seems to be very > >picky about getting correctly timed responses from the sound CPUs. I'm not > >sure how accurate it needs to be, but half a mhz was enough to cause the > Guess why NB makes his dynarec so timing sensitive ;-) Bingo. Because in almost all cases its needed. And after I get to the point of doing optimization on the core, I'll put in a little option that'll allow the code to group them together for increased (but less accurate) timing efficiency. > >(and this may help to explain the distinct lack of the rumoured > >dynarec Williams emulator, that and the fact that someone had added an extra > >'0' onto the end of the TMS CPUs clock speed at some stage!). > TMS? I thought the Williams system had a 6809. The question is *WHICH* Williams set of games? If you're talking the early really good ones like Joust, Robotron, etc... they're all 6809 based. IF you're talking about Mortal Kombat, Smash TV, etc... that's the TMS 34010. FWIW, I have seen and worked a bit with the author of the dynarec 34010 emulator. He and I had completely different philosophies on how to do dynamic recompilation, so we went our separate ways. I didn't like the "assemble the preassembled blocks" approach. I still don't. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 01:15:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16183 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004140816.KAA07995@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Near 1000 Postings In-Reply-To: <0003652782f683e6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 13, 2000 07:01:45 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:16:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Discuss something on-topic? ;)) > > Then could you please remind me what the topic was? ;-) > I think was SF books ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 01:15:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16192 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004140814.KAA26466@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Linux, functional languages, and toolchain theory... In-Reply-To: <38F5EF84.5319C780@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 13, 2000 06:02:12 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:14:20 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > > And more, in Spain piracy is the rule, and I still don't know if I like it > > > > or not :o > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > I don't know what you mean ... > > Well, I don't completely agree with piracy - and I'm not completely behind > it. I'm all for *selective* piracy. :) > > Anyway, speaking as someone into emulation, I can't really say "I'm against > all piracy and it should be wiped out". I may, or may not have ROMs which I > theoretically shouldn't have. Maybe. I'm not going to commit myself one way > or the other on a public mailing list. ;) > > I don't go for pirated programs - stuff under 1-2 years old. I buy it. > Generally. I have had copied programs before now - but if I use them on > even a semi-regular basis, I buy them. It's only fair. Besides, games is > the business I'm trying to get into. So if I don't support it myself, how > can I expect others to? :o > I think something similar. If I have the money and the program it's good enough it must be bought, if not ... ;) What happens that I usually I don't have the money ... :o BTW sometimes I think the companies are selling the programs at a too high price (using piracy as an excuse), and most of times the beneficies are most for companies than for programmers, developers, etc. > When you get to Amiga vs PC, I have to wonder if this didn't die years ago > - this is the first I've heard about it in years. It's stupid to argue > about machines because each has it's own benefits and disadvantages. It > isn't the case with Pascal and C - C can do everything that Pascal can - > but not vice-versa. > As Amiga died it's dead. > > > Me too. I used to have a Multiface II for my CPC. Basically a hardware > > > debugger. Ah, it was great. =) > > > > :) > > What did you have before a PC - or was a PC your first computer (I think I > remember you saying this)? > A heavy powerful multipurpose Sinclair ZX81 ;) A text based (I can't call graphics something made with 0.5 cm dots/squares) computer. It uses a Z80 processor, BASIC, 1KB with a 16KB expansion, keyboard integrated. It resembles a bit a PDU in size, it was really small, but you still need a screen. But as it was hard to play with it, I was too young (around ten years) I just learn a bit of Basic with it. And I have a lot of problems saving programs in a cassette so I couldn't write large programs, just turn on it, writing a small program and try it. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 01:16:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16201 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:16:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004140816.KAA11445@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary In-Reply-To: <000365274b668428_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 13, 2000 06:46:13 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:16:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >> > I have thought a name: Invasores (Invaders in Spanish) but I think > better > >> > use one peoples agrees with. > >> Well, there was a small vote some time ago and the name that won was > >> "Space8". The name doesn't matter to me, though. > >Ah. I forgot it. Oh, but I want a Spanish name ;)) > > I think "Invasores" sounds better! ;-) > Hehe, I agree. It sounds just cool ;) Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 01:18:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16210 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004140821.KAA19476@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation In-Reply-To: from Neil Bradley at "Apr 13, 2000 10:11:17 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:21:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >I was reading last night Marat's How to and I saw 'static recompilation'. > > >But he was naming in fact 'static compilation'. The same happens when > > >he says 'dynamic recompilation' but really is 'dynamic compilation'. > > Even the "emulation god" Marat isn't perfect. > > That's very true, in addition to his coding style being highly unreadable > and inefficient as hell. > I agree with you. The first time I started to learn about emulation I tried to read that ugly Marat's Z80 core and I couldn't. But later, when I found your MZ80 core it was so clear (helping that I knew well x86 assembler) I undertood it really fast and easyly. I really can say you have helped me learn about emulation. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 01:23:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16222 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004140826.KAA28957@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Marat cores, endianness, kernels, linux In-Reply-To: from "tarquin@austin.rr.com" at "Apr 13, 2000 01:12:31 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:26:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com About microkernels: I did a subject in my unversity last year about advanced OS technologies and they talked a lot about microkernels. I don't really know about Linux. But microkernels has a lot of sense for multiprocessors computers, the new tendences seems to something called exokernels, what in fact means that there isn't OS at all, only different modules being loaded at application level. It is because when you are in OS level (or privileged level) the execution has to become serialized, so if you want use all the processors what you have to do is make the OS (privileged level) as thin as possible. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 01:25:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16234 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004140828.KAA11354@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 1000 Postings In-Reply-To: <8okcfskmtcc7kcurbhf7o55riafnq3ecee@4ax.com> from Jack at "Apr 13, 2000 07:07:34 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:28:12 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:00:35 +0200, Michael Koenig > wrote: > > >BTW, we crossed the mark of 1000 postings... > >Yeah, I know that senseless messages like this one help us to reach the 2000 > >mark even faster ;-) > > You won't find me contributing to these off-topic postings. :) Then why you don't contribute with some on-topic postings ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 02:27:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA16512 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:27:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:25:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >only effect you get is that the sound goes just like it does if your CPU > > >isn't powerful enough to keep up with the game and the frame rate starts to > > >drop below 40ish fps. Everything seems a bit drawn out, but it works fine. > > It seems that 16-bit systems aren't that timing sensitive. > > You shouldn't make statements like that! ;-) > > Timing sensitivty has zero connection with the "bitness" of the CPU - it's > ENTIRELY software and architecture dependent. Well over half of the > Genesis games are timing critical. You'll cause sprites to appear, > disappear, and flicker if you get off by so much as a cycle! > > Same deal with the Atari System 1 games like Marble Madness, Road > Blasters, and Toobin' especially (well, it's not system 1 but still has > the same issue). Indeed. As I mentioned, the Midway games just keel over if the timing is out. However, the more modern the machine, the greater chance they were designed to be a bit more stable than that. > I don't know what this "overclocking" thing is for MAME, but it's a horrid > name. In Retrocade if we want to increase the framerate we can just > increase it, but it doesn't change any of the internal clocking or timing. Overclocking has nothing to do with the framerate. A game that runs at 60fps will still run at 60fps if you double, triple, or quadruple the core CPU speeds, because you'll be doubling, tripling, or quadrupling all the interupt periods. As most games sync off the vblank interrupt you shouldn't see any difference in performance, except that the game runs at full speed the whole of the time. Metal Slug X on the NeoGeo is ideal for this sort of thing, because it's chucking so many sprites around that it slows down something chronic the second you get hold of a nice destructive weapon like the rocket launcher. With a faster CPU it can manage all those sprites without a loss of game speed. Of course, you'll always get a few shoddily coded games that use slowdown loops and rely on the CPUs clock rate for timing, but, given that pretty much all of the 16bit and up games in MAME come with CPU skippers, I'd say they're few and far between. > > >etc.) it reset the machine almost instantly. The ROM code seems to be very > > >picky about getting correctly timed responses from the sound CPUs. I'm not > > >sure how accurate it needs to be, but half a mhz was enough to cause the > > Guess why NB makes his dynarec so timing sensitive ;-) > > Bingo. Because in almost all cases its needed. And after I get to the > point of doing optimization on the core, I'll put in a little option > that'll allow the code to group them together for increased (but less > accurate) timing efficiency. In almost all of the older (hence 8bit) machines accuracy is needed. SpectrEm-DR does t-state exact timing with its Z80 because the almost all software written for the Spectrum relied on the CPU running at *exactly* 3.5mhz. Based on the fiddling I've done with EMU+ most of the late 80s and onwards games can cope quite admirably with half megahertz changes in CPU speeds, so being out by a few hundred cycles shouldn't do any damage at all. For compatibilities sake, a cycle exact timing method is definately useful. If you want compatibility with an 8-bit CPU, though, some sort of self-modifying code handling is going to be needed, and if you're going to code a cycle exact self-modification capable Z80 you might as well do it in assembler as an interpreted core. A 68k version would be cool, though. It'd certainly do the various Amiga, ST, and MegaDrive emulators a power of good... > > >(and this may help to explain the distinct lack of the rumoured > > >dynarec Williams emulator, that and the fact that someone had added an extra > > >'0' onto the end of the TMS CPUs clock speed at some stage!). > > TMS? I thought the Williams system had a 6809. > > The question is *WHICH* Williams set of games? If you're talking the early > really good ones like Joust, Robotron, etc... they're all 6809 based. IF > you're talking about Mortal Kombat, Smash TV, etc... that's the TMS 34010. I'm talking about the later ones, yes. I ought to point out that if I ever start wittering on about potential compiled core candidates I'm probably discussing anything after around about 1987... > FWIW, I have seen and worked a bit with the author of the dynarec 34010 > emulator. He and I had completely different philosophies on how to do > dynamic recompilation, so we went our separate ways. I didn't like the > "assemble the preassembled blocks" approach. I still don't. Assemble the preassembled blocks? How's that work, then? > -->Neil Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:03:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16582 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:03:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004141006.MAA14082@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> from Andrew Davidson at "Apr 14, 2000 10:25:04 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:06:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Overclocking has nothing to do with the framerate. A game that runs at 60fps > will still run at 60fps if you double, triple, or quadruple the core CPU > speeds, because you'll be doubling, tripling, or quadrupling all the > interupt periods. As most games sync off the vblank interrupt you shouldn't > see any difference in performance, except that the game runs at full speed > the whole of the time. Metal Slug X on the NeoGeo is ideal for this sort of > thing, because it's chucking so many sprites around that it slows down > something chronic the second you get hold of a nice destructive weapon like > the rocket launcher. With a faster CPU it can manage all those sprites > without a loss of game speed. There are some SNES games which needs such overclocking too ;) This idea of overclocking remembers another one. Emulation can be used not only to recreate old computer systems but also to create new ones. For example you could mix characteristhics of varius systems in a single emulator. But it isn't so useful at all, because I think noone would program with those 'irreal' systems. But perhaps it can be interesting just for test it. > assembler as an interpreted core. A 68k version would be cool, though. It'd > certainly do the various Amiga, ST, and MegaDrive emulators a power of > good... > Oh well, I think there are now a lot of people building a M86k dynarec core ;) Neil Bradley is perhaps interested, Neil Griffiths wants also, I think Tom Seddon it's working in one and I also have to build one. Who knows, perhaps the Generator author will end his own. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:10:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16609 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:10:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:08:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >A 68k version would be cool, though. It'd >certainly do the various Amiga, ST, and MegaDrive emulators a power of >good... I'd really like to see a dynarec ST emulator ;-) >Assemble the preassembled blocks? How's that work, then? Take a look at NEStra eg. There you have a a file which looks a bit like an assembly optimised interpretive core, but it has some blanks (or zeros). This file is run through the assembler when the emulator is compiled. During runtime the compiler takes a specific code template according to the found opcode, copies the whole code to the translation cache and patches the blanks to reflect the current instruction arguments - disgusting! -- M.I.Ke Celebrate Hannibal Day this year. Take an elephant to lunch. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:10:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16610 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:10:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Near 1000 Postings From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004140816.KAA07995@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036535e307e059_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004140816.KAA07995@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:10:46 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I think was SF books ;) Great, I'm just half through the second book of the new Han Solo trilogy... ; -) -- M.I.Ke "Last night, I came home and realized that everything in my apartment had been stolen and replaced with an exact duplicate. I told this to my friend -- he said, `Do I know you?'" -- Steven Wright --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:10:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16620 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 1000 Postings From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004140828.KAA11354@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036535e67dde36_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004140828.KAA11354@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:11:44 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Then why you don't contribute with some on-topic postings ;) Great idea! Some other lurkers could do that as well ;-) -- M.I.Ke First Law of Socio-Genetics: Celibacy is not hereditary. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:12:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16628 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:12:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004141013.MAA18798@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary In-Reply-To: <200004140816.KAA11445@pons.ac.upc.es> from Victor Moya del Barrio at "Apr 14, 2000 10:16:21 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:13:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com OK. About SI/Space8/Invasores project. I downloaded yesterday all documentation I found at spies. Today I have copied it to floppys and I will take it to my house (I hope I don't find disk errors :|). Next week is holiday for me so I will try to work in the project. The university isn't closed all the week so perhaps I will come to read mails tuesday or wednesday, but this isn't sure. If not I will return Tuesday 25th. I say this so you don't think SI is dead or I'm dead ;). I'm sure than as soon as I will get out of here you all will begin to talk about emulation and dynarec ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:18:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16640 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:18:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004141006.MAA14082@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <0003653601eda157_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004141006.MAA14082@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:19:25 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Oh well, I think there are now a lot of people building a M86k dynarec core >;) Oops, I know the M68K and the M88K, but the M86K must be a Motorola/Intel hybrid ;-) >Neil Bradley is perhaps interested, Neil Griffiths wants also, I think Tom >Seddon it's working in one and I also have to build one. Forgot about Tom Seddon... >Who knows, perhaps the Generator author will end his own. I think James Ponder's dynarec for ARM is more or less complete but still experimental and he doesn't want to modify it anymore. The problem is that David McEwen told me he activated the dynarec core and it didn't make any difference, so the dynarec is eiter crap, the bottleneck somewhere else, or both. -- M.I.Ke Machines certainly can solve problems, store information, correlate, and play games -- but not with pleasure. -- Leo Rosten --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:20:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16656 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:20:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <007a01bfa5fa$a8257f60$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <200004141006.MAA14082@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:17:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Overclocking has nothing to do with the framerate. A game that runs at 60fps > > will still run at 60fps if you double, triple, or quadruple the core CPU > > speeds, because you'll be doubling, tripling, or quadrupling all the > > interupt periods. As most games sync off the vblank interrupt you shouldn't > > see any difference in performance, except that the game runs at full speed > > the whole of the time. Metal Slug X on the NeoGeo is ideal for this sort of > > thing, because it's chucking so many sprites around that it slows down > > something chronic the second you get hold of a nice destructive weapon like > > the rocket launcher. With a faster CPU it can manage all those sprites > > without a loss of game speed. > > There are some SNES games which needs such overclocking too ;) > This idea of overclocking remembers another one. Emulation can be used not > only to recreate old computer systems but also to create new ones. For example > you could mix characteristhics of varius systems in a single emulator. But > it isn't so useful at all, because I think noone would program with those > 'irreal' systems. But perhaps it can be interesting just for test it. It would definately be interesting, but think how much work it would take! Actually, I believe that some of the bigger processor manufacturers emulate new CPU designs before they actually start pouring millions into producing real live versions... it would certainly make some sense for them to, anyway. However, I'd imagine that they emulate them at a much lower level than we do. > > assembler as an interpreted core. A 68k version would be cool, though. It'd > > certainly do the various Amiga, ST, and MegaDrive emulators a power of > > good... > > > > Oh well, I think there are now a lot of people building a M86k dynarec core ;) > Neil Bradley is perhaps interested, Neil Griffiths wants also, I think Tom Seddon > it's working in one and I also have to build one. Who knows, perhaps the Generator > author will end his own. But are they/you building full cores, or just JIT/translated/compiled cores that can't handle the whole self-modification problem? > Victor Moya Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:24:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16665 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004141013.MAA18798@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <0003653619aafc1c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004141013.MAA18798@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:26:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >OK. About SI/Space8/Invasores project. I downloaded yesterday all >documentation I found at spies. Today I have copied it to floppys and I will >take it to my house (I hope I don't find disk errors :|). I know that problem... Brought the LOTR trailer home on 8 disks and, thank god, there was no error. Why don't they have a Zip drive at work? >If not I will return Tuesday 25th. I say this so you >don't think SI is dead or I'm dead ;). SI surely won't be dead, and I hope you won't be as well ;-) Since NG will have holidays too I wonder who is going to do some posts anyway... >I'm sure than as soon as I will get out of here you all will begin to talk >about emulation and dynarec ;) What was that? These words are neither in my English nor in my German dictionary! -- M.I.Ke Hire the morally handicapped. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:30:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16686 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:27:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >A 68k version would be cool, though. It'd > >certainly do the various Amiga, ST, and MegaDrive emulators a power of > >good... > > I'd really like to see a dynarec ST emulator ;-) Heh! :) Spawn of the devil, those Atari things... (Says the bloke with a pile of old Amigas living in his garage) > >Assemble the preassembled blocks? How's that work, then? > > Take a look at NEStra eg. There you have a a file which looks a bit like an > assembly optimised interpretive core, but it has some blanks (or zeros). This > file is run through the assembler when the emulator is compiled. > During runtime the compiler takes a specific code template according to the > found opcode, copies the whole code to the translation cache and patches the > blanks to reflect the current instruction arguments - disgusting! Ah right, yes. You provide a slice of template machine code for each emulated opcode? I was planning on doing something like this for a Z80 core. It may not be elegant, but it's bloody fast (relatively!) when you've got a code segment that requires lots and lots of recompilation. Of course, you can probably handle that better by running an interpreted core beside the compiled one, and giving it control of any code blocks which self-modify too much... > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:33:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16698 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:33:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004141035.MAA05331@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <007a01bfa5fa$a8257f60$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> from Andrew Davidson at "Apr 14, 2000 11:17:36 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:35:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It would definately be interesting, but think how much work it would take! > Actually, I believe that some of the bigger processor manufacturers emulate > new CPU designs before they actually start pouring millions into producing > real live versions... it would certainly make some sense for them to, > anyway. However, I'd imagine that they emulate them at a much lower level > than we do. > Yes I have found documentation talking about that. > > But are they/you building full cores, or just JIT/translated/compiled cores > that can't handle the whole self-modification problem? > I'm not sure the others, but I think they won't handle self-modifying code. I'm not sure what I will do, as it will be a core for a MegaDrive emulator, I don't think it needs handle self-modifying code. But perhaps will be interesting to test how the NB approach works with a simple self-modifying handle algorithm. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:33:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16708 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:33:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <007a01bfa5fa$a8257f60$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <0003653636f94e6b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004141006.MAA14082@pons.ac.upc.es> <007a01bfa5fa$a8257f60$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:34:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It would definately be interesting, but think how much work it would take! >Actually, I believe that some of the bigger processor manufacturers emulate >new CPU designs before they actually start pouring millions into producing >real live versions... it would certainly make some sense for them to, >anyway. However, I'd imagine that they emulate them at a much lower level >than we do. Indeed. The first ARM processors were simulated in BBC BASIC on a BBC Micro - must have been damn slow, imagine emulating a 8MHz RISC CPU on a 2MHz 6502 ; -) The simulator, know as ASIM, was latter rewritten in Modula-2 and C and is still used. >But are they/you building full cores, or just JIT/translated/compiled cores >that can't handle the whole self-modification problem? I have to admit that I don't know if Generator handles self-modifying 68K code, but it deals with the other self-modification problem which occurs when the dynarec runs on a Harvard architecture ;-) -- M.I.Ke Alexander Graham Bell is alive and well in New York, and still waiting for a dial tone. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:35:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16719 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:35:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004141036.MAA20395@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <0003653601eda157_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 14, 2000 12:19:25 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:36:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Oh well, I think there are now a lot of people building a M86k dynarec core > >;) > > Oops, I know the M68K and the M88K, but the M86K must be a Motorola/Intel > hybrid ;-) > Oops, why I can't just read the mail before posting it? :( > I think James Ponder's dynarec for ARM is more or less complete but still > experimental and he doesn't want to modify it anymore. > The problem is that David McEwen told me he activated the dynarec core and it > didn't make any difference, so the dynarec is eiter crap, the bottleneck > somewhere else, or both. > Oh, bad news I think. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:36:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16728 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004141038.MAA01586@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary In-Reply-To: <0003653619aafc1c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 14, 2000 12:26:03 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:38:31 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >If not I will return Tuesday 25th. I say this so you > >don't think SI is dead or I'm dead ;). > > SI surely won't be dead, and I hope you won't be as well ;-) > Since NG will have holidays too I wonder who is going to do some posts > anyway... > Lurkers :) > >I'm sure than as soon as I will get out of here you all will begin to talk > >about emulation and dynarec ;) > > What was that? These words are neither in my English nor in my German > dictionary! > Ops, I can't remember now where I readed this words? ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:39:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16737 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:40:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Heh! :) Spawn of the devil, those Atari things... (Says the bloke with a >pile of old Amigas living in his garage) AHHH, take that you fiend! I have a Atari Mega STE 4 ready to run and a 1040ST in the antic! BTW, do we really want to carry on with that Atari vs Amiga feud? ;-) >Ah right, yes. You provide a slice of template machine code for each >emulated opcode? I was planning on doing something like this for a Z80 core. >It may not be elegant, but it's bloody fast (relatively!) when you've got a >code segment that requires lots and lots of recompilation. Of course, you >can probably handle that better by running an interpreted core beside the >compiled one, and giving it control of any code blocks which self-modify too >much... I guess I don't have to comment on that since NB surely will tell you wha he thinks of copy-paste-and-patch dynarecs and combined compiling and interpretive cores... >Andrew -- M.I.Ke Overdrawn? But I still have checks left! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:42:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16753 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F6F57E.50BCAD82@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:39:58 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <200004141006.MAA14082@pons.ac.upc.es> <007a01bfa5fa$a8257f60$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > It would definately be interesting, but think how much work it would take! > Actually, I believe that some of the bigger processor manufacturers emulate > new CPU designs before they actually start pouring millions into producing > real live versions... it would certainly make some sense for them to, > anyway. However, I'd imagine that they emulate them at a much lower level > than we do. I know for a fact that most graphics chip companies do this. It may be possible at some point for me to get the source to one of S3s chips in the future. That could be interesting. Written in C, IIRC... I find it hard to believe that AMD and Intel don't do the same. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:46:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16771 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004141036.MAA20395@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000365366758930d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004141036.MAA20395@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:47:46 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Oops, why I can't just read the mail before posting it? :( Because we didn't have the opportunity to mock about it... and no-one else does it as well ;-) >[Generator] >Oh, bad news I think. I'm not sure how the whole dynarec really looks. I only found some code generated for addressing modes when I took a look at the source. I guess the translations have to be generated first just like the interpretive core... -- M.I.Ke A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small package. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:46:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16778 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:46:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004141038.MAA01586@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000365365b7a1304_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004141038.MAA01586@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:44:27 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Since NG will have holidays too I wonder who is going to do some posts >> anyway... >Lurkers :) Hehehe ;-) >Ops, I can't remember now where I readed this words? ;) Which words? Shit, my brain is like a sieve today... ;-) -- M.I.Ke Do not drink coffee in early a.m. It will keep you awake until noon. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 03:47:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16787 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:47:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F6F689.483E99A5@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:44:25 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary References: <200004141013.MAA18798@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003653619aafc1c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I know that problem... Brought the LOTR trailer home on 8 disks and, thank > god, there was no error. Why don't they have a Zip drive at work? I downloaded a 60MB version. Can I fit that on 8 disks, do you think? ;)) > >If not I will return Tuesday 25th. I say this so you > >don't think SI is dead or I'm dead ;). > > SI surely won't be dead, and I hope you won't be as well ;-) > Since NG will have holidays too I wonder who is going to do some posts > anyway... I will have holidays - but I'll be back in Britain. My sister turns 18 next Sunday, so I'll be home for that. I go home next Wednesday and come back the following Tuesday - so chances are you won't hear from me until Wednesday 26th. After next Wednesday that is. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 04:05:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16819 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 04:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <00c001bfa600$e557a380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:02:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Heh! :) Spawn of the devil, those Atari things... (Says the bloke with a > >pile of old Amigas living in his garage) > > AHHH, take that you fiend! I have a Atari Mega STE 4 ready to run and a > 1040ST in the antic! > BTW, do we really want to carry on with that Atari vs Amiga feud? ;-) No need. It was finished years ago when the Amiga trashed the Atari. Argh! I didn't just say that, did I? Sorry! Sorry! Sorry! Amiga! Sorry! Sorry! ;) > >Ah right, yes. You provide a slice of template machine code for each > >emulated opcode? I was planning on doing something like this for a Z80 core. > >It may not be elegant, but it's bloody fast (relatively!) when you've got a > >code segment that requires lots and lots of recompilation. Of course, you > >can probably handle that better by running an interpreted core beside the > >compiled one, and giving it control of any code blocks which self-modify too > >much... > > I guess I don't have to comment on that since NB surely will tell you wha he > thinks of copy-paste-and-patch dynarecs and combined compiling and > interpretive cores... I wrote a program to run on SpectrEm-DR that consisted of a looped code block that called one of two other blocks, each of which modified the code in the main block to cause it to call the othe block the next time it ran. My framerate dropped to about four, and the profiler went mad and broke. Admittedly, it was a slightly excessive example, but a couple of the Speccy speed loaders self-modify almost as regularly as it did, so it's not totally unrealistic. Even block splitting won't handle that sort of code at anywhere near a sensible speed, so you've got to start using icky hacks, the dual compiled/interpreted system being the best of the two, as far as I can see. > -- > M.I.Ke > > Overdrawn? But I still have checks left! And God said "Let there be credit cards"... As if we didn't have enough in the way of temptation already! Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 04:08:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16828 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 04:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: First SI summary From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F6F689.483E99A5@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000365369a0bb4cc_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004141013.MAA18798@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003653619aafc1c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F6F689.483E99A5@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:01:57 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I downloaded a 60MB version. I only have the 12MB version :-( >Can I fit that on 8 disks, do you think? ;)) Depends on the disks ;-) >I will have holidays - but I'll be back in Britain. My sister turns 18 next >Sunday, so I'll be home for that. I go home next Wednesday and come back >the following Tuesday - so chances are you won't hear from me until >Wednesday 26th. After next Wednesday that is. :) Uh, then it will be very silent... :-( -- M.I.Ke You cannot kill time without injuring eternity. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 05:18:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16938 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 05:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <00c001bfa600$e557a380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <00c001bfa600$e557a380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:19:08 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No need. It was finished years ago when the Amiga trashed the Atari. Really? I think there are still more Ataris in use than Amigas, just think of MIDI... >Argh! I didn't just say that, did I? Sorry! Sorry! Sorry! Amiga! Sorry! >Sorry! ;) Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! Atari rules! Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! ;-) >I wrote a program to run on SpectrEm-DR that consisted of a looped code >block that called one of two other blocks, each of which modified the code >in the main block to cause it to call the othe block the next time it ran. >My framerate dropped to about four, and the profiler went mad and broke. >Admittedly, it was a slightly excessive example, but a couple of the Speccy >speed loaders self-modify almost as regularly as it did, so it's not totally >unrealistic. Even block splitting won't handle that sort of code at anywhere >near a sensible speed, so you've got to start using icky hacks, the dual >compiled/interpreted system being the best of the two, as far as I can see. Yes, it's an extreme example but interesting to see how performance drops. I guess NB's answer would be that in such a self-modifying system like that it would be better to use an optimised interpretive-only approach. BTW, how does this block splitting work? >Andrew -- M.I.Ke Barth's Distinction: There are two types of people: those who divide people into two types, and those who don't. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 05:36:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16975 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 05:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:33:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >No need. It was finished years ago when the Amiga trashed the Atari. > > Really? I think there are still more Ataris in use than Amigas, just think of > MIDI... Ah, but that's sound. What about CG? Just think of Video Toasters and Babylon 5 and suchlike... > >Argh! I didn't just say that, did I? Sorry! Sorry! Sorry! Amiga! Sorry! > >Sorry! ;) > > Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! Atari rules! Doesn't matter! > Doesn't matter! ;-) Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! They do not! Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! We may just have invented a whole new form of communication... ;) > >I wrote a program to run on SpectrEm-DR that consisted of a looped code > >block that called one of two other blocks, each of which modified the code > >in the main block to cause it to call the othe block the next time it ran. > >My framerate dropped to about four, and the profiler went mad and broke. > >Admittedly, it was a slightly excessive example, but a couple of the Speccy > >speed loaders self-modify almost as regularly as it did, so it's not totally > >unrealistic. Even block splitting won't handle that sort of code at anywhere > >near a sensible speed, so you've got to start using icky hacks, the dual > >compiled/interpreted system being the best of the two, as far as I can see. > > Yes, it's an extreme example but interesting to see how performance drops. I > guess NB's answer would be that in such a self-modifying system like that it > would be better to use an optimised interpretive-only approach. > BTW, how does this block splitting work? Block splitting is pretty simple really. You keep track of exactly which opcodes are being self modified, then you go back to the machine code you generated for that block, and replace the code that's emulating that opcode with a jump to a sort of sub-block, which consists of nothing but the machine code to emulate that opcode, and a jump back to the main block. You can, of course, optimise that to group sub-blocks, but you've got to be a bit careful with that because you could well end up with a situation where you're splitting sub-blocks into sub-blocks, and you're right back where you started but with a bit of extra overhead. NOPs and other easily compiled opcodes can cause problems, too, because every opcode needs to take up at least 5 x86 bytes (for a direct jump). Of course, you can always compile NOPs as five x86 NOPs or a useless jump that leads directly to the next op. (A three byte +2 relative jump would probably gain you a clock or two here). The idea is that you can modify these sub blocks without worrying about having to reallocate space for the main block, and recompile all the code that follows the modified opcode(s). > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 06:25:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17070 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <000365389e32fe2e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:26:16 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ah, but that's sound. What about CG? Just think of Video Toasters and >Babylon 5 and suchlike... Babylon 5 is made with Amigas? Now I know why it looks so bad! >Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! They do not! Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! Of course! Of course! Of course! Neither does Amiga! Of course! Ofcourse! >We may just have invented a whole new form of communication... ;) You call that communication? ;-) >Block splitting is pretty simple really. You keep track of exactly which >opcodes are being self modified, then you go back to the machine code you >generated for that block, and replace the code that's emulating that opcode >with a jump to a sort of sub-block, which consists of nothing but the >machine code to emulate that opcode, and a jump back to the main block. You >can, of course, optimise that to group sub-blocks, but you've got to be a >bit careful with that because you could well end up with a situation where >you're splitting sub-blocks into sub-blocks, and you're right back where you >started but with a bit of extra overhead. Ok, from Pentium onward the two jumps should be eliminated by the branch predictor, but how do you keep track of all those jumps? I mean, when an instruction is modified then you first have t track down if it was already replaced by a jump, or do you simply overwrite the instruction without checking and leave the older sub-block behind as a zombie? >NOPs and other easily compiled >opcodes can cause problems, too, because every opcode needs to take up at >least 5 x86 bytes (for a direct jump). Of course, you can always compile >NOPs as five x86 NOPs or a useless jump that leads directly to the next op. So you generate at least 5 bytes per translated instruction, filling it with NOPs if in need. How do you keep track of the "instructions lengths", since you'd have to overwrite some bytes with NOPs if the instruction needed more than 5 bytes and shall be replaced by a sub-block, or does this never happen? >(A three byte +2 relative jump would probably gain you a clock or two here). True, but it will be even more complicated, I guess. >The idea is that you can modify these sub blocks without worrying about >having to reallocate space for the main block, and recompile all the code >that follows the modified opcode(s). But that can lead to slight problems as well. Eg. if the last instruction in the block (which should be a jump) is overwritten by a non-jump because the programmer only needed a small part of the block at first but now activates the whole block, you'll end up with 2 blocks and maybe even 1 sub-block and you have to go through the dispatcher loop each time the program flows from the first part to the second part of the block. I admit that this example is extreme as well, but in this case recompiling the whole block would be better. >Andrew -- M.I.Ke Don't believe everything you hear or anything you say. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 06:58:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17151 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:58:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F722C4.FEBABA3A@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:53:08 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365389e32fe2e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Ah, but that's sound. What about CG? Just think of Video Toasters and > >Babylon 5 and suchlike... > > Babylon 5 is made with Amigas? Now I know why it looks so bad! Yep, it's made with Amigas. But beware - Amiga owners will tell you that everything ELSE is made with Amigas too. I've even been told that Toy Story and Toy Story 2 were rendered with an Amiga. :)) > >Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! They do not! Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! > > Of course! Of course! Of course! Neither does Amiga! Of course! Ofcourse! Oh no! I'm sure there's some messages hidden in there, but I can't quite make it out... ;) > >We may just have invented a whole new form of communication... ;) > > You call that communication? ;-) I bet I could dyanrec those comments to translate them into something that is understandable... :) > Don't believe everything you hear or anything you say. That's a fitting ending! That's a fitting ending! No it isn't! That's a fitting ending! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 07:20:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17204 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:20:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <026801bfa61c$43dcc460$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365389e32fe2e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:18:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Ah, but that's sound. What about CG? Just think of Video Toasters and > >Babylon 5 and suchlike... > > Babylon 5 is made with Amigas? Now I know why it looks so bad! Pah! So give me some examples of music made with STs to be rude about. I simply can't think of anything of note! :þ > >Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! They do not! Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! > > Of course! Of course! Of course! Neither does Amiga! Of course! Ofcourse! Yep! Yep! Yep! Right, that's it. I'm telling my mum! Yep! Yep! Yep! > >We may just have invented a whole new form of communication... ;) > > You call that communication? ;-) Indeed I do. Mind, I never had the advantage of growning up surrounded by MIDI ports to learn from... ;) > >Block splitting is pretty simple really. You keep track of exactly which > >opcodes are being self modified, then you go back to the machine code you > >generated for that block, and replace the code that's emulating that opcode > >with a jump to a sort of sub-block, which consists of nothing but the > >machine code to emulate that opcode, and a jump back to the main block. You > >can, of course, optimise that to group sub-blocks, but you've got to be a > >bit careful with that because you could well end up with a situation where > >you're splitting sub-blocks into sub-blocks, and you're right back where you > >started but with a bit of extra overhead. > > Ok, from Pentium onward the two jumps should be eliminated by the branch > predictor, but how do you keep track of all those jumps? I mean, when an > instruction is modified then you first have t track down if it was already > replaced by a jump, or do you simply overwrite the instruction without > checking and leave the older sub-block behind as a zombie? You can keep track of them however you like. Simply keeping a list of modified opcode addresses is a good way for a CPU with a 16bit address bus, whilst reserving oversized areas of memory for sub blocks (which, as they're only a single instruction, can never be large than you single largest emulated opcode) and compiling in the jump back to an area of the memory that can't be overwritten (this is what you meant by 'zombie', is it?) would work fine for 24/32bit buses. In the latter case, the first time the instruction is modified you'd overwrite it with the jump to the sub-block address and just forget about it. > >NOPs and other easily compiled > >opcodes can cause problems, too, because every opcode needs to take up at > >least 5 x86 bytes (for a direct jump). Of course, you can always compile > >NOPs as five x86 NOPs or a useless jump that leads directly to the next op. > > So you generate at least 5 bytes per translated instruction, filling it with > NOPs if in need. How do you keep track of the "instructions lengths", since > you'd have to overwrite some bytes with NOPs if the instruction needed more > than 5 bytes and shall be replaced by a sub-block, or does this never happen? You can tell how many bytes any instruction takes to compile because you know how many bytes are needed to compile that instruction, sort of thing. It's in the code already, and another lookup table (which could easily be automatically generated at either compile or run time) should sort you out for that one. You wouldn't need to overwrite long invalid x86 instruction sequences with NOPs, because the jumping system would kick in at the start of the sequence, and jump back to the first byte of the next emulated opcode sequence, thus ignoring the rest of the system altogether. > >(A three byte +2 relative jump would probably gain you a clock or two here). > > True, but it will be even more complicated, I guess. How? I'm talking about an instruction to skip over the two bytes of padding code that doesn't strictly speaking need to be there (for padding REALLY short emulated opcodes like NOP, which you can do in 0 bytes, without accurate timing). > >The idea is that you can modify these sub blocks without worrying about > >having to reallocate space for the main block, and recompile all the code > >that follows the modified opcode(s). > > But that can lead to slight problems as well. Eg. if the last instruction in > the block (which should be a jump) is overwritten by a non-jump because the > programmer only needed a small part of the block at first but now activates > the whole block, you'll end up with 2 blocks and maybe even 1 sub-block and > you have to go through the dispatcher loop each time the program flows from > the first part to the second part of the block. > I admit that this example is extreme as well, but in this case recompiling > the whole block would be better. Sorry, I don't think I've got my thinking cap on straight today. That lot went right over my head. Are you saying that there would be modifications to the main block? Other than overwriting the first five bytes of an opcodes x86 machine code equivalent with a jump to the single opcode sub-block, nothing in the main block is modified at all. If you mean problems with the sub-block, the last five bytes (with the jump back to the main block encoded in them) can be protected from being overwritten by simply ensuring that the sub-block is five bytes bigger than the largest possible x86 opcode sequence (a couple of hundred bytes at most). > -- > M.I.Ke > > Don't believe everything you hear or anything you say. Especially if it's about STs being good! ;) Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 08:30:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17391 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:30:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: DynaRec FAQ From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <0003653a5fc07b08_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:31:59 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com OK, let's do some brainstorming! What topics should a dynarec FAQ cover? I'll make a brief list, which should be just a beginning. Any recommendations are welcome! * "Dynarec" and other terms - dynamic recompilation, binary translation, JIT compilation, on-demand/on- the-fly/lazy translation * How does dynamic recompilation work in principle? - on-demand translation of binary code blocks to another machine code * What other translation methods are possible? - static compilation, hybrids, ... * How to generate code? - code templates (yuk!), code emitter * How to map translated code blocks? - TLB, TransMap, and paged TransMap * The problem with self-modifying code. - Why a problem? How to detect? How to solve? * What optimisations can be performed? - redundant flag calculation reduction, register allocation, peephole optimisation * How to sync the code? - NB's t-state approach, the sloppy block approach Anything I forgot? -- M.I.Ke Loud burping while walking around the airport is prohibited in Halstead, Kansas. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 08:39:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17424 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38F73B2D.72AFD7C7@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:37:17 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DynaRec FAQ References: <0003653a5fc07b08_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > sloppy block approach I like the sound of that. The downside is that it sounds like some bizarre sexual disease... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 09:00:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17485 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F722C4.FEBABA3A@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003653a86829189_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365389e32fe2e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F722C4.FEBABA3A@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:42:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yep, it's made with Amigas. That's explains why I don't like Babylon 5, much too colourful for space... >But beware - Amiga owners will tell you that >everything ELSE is made with Amigas too. I've even been told that Toy Story >and Toy Story 2 were rendered with an Amiga. :)) Hehe. I think in that case they had SPARC render farms, but normally you'd be using a batch of decent SGIs. >Oh no! I'm sure there's some messages hidden in there, but I can't quite >make it out... ;) A message in a message? I guess you used too much left recursive GNU names recently ;-) >I bet I could dyanrec those comments to translate them into something that >is understandable... :) A dynarec for natural language, noooo! >That's a fitting ending! That's a fitting ending! No it isn't! That's a >fitting ending! ;) Something goes very wrong here.... -- M.I.Ke "As part of the conversion, computer specialists rewrote 1,500 programs; a process that traditionally requires some debugging." -- USA Today, referring to the IRS switchover to a new computer system. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 09:00:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17493 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <026801bfa61c$43dcc460$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365389e32fe2e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <026801bfa61c$43dcc460$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:01:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Pah! So give me some examples of music made with STs to be rude about. I >simply can't think of anything of note! :þ Just as NB says about synths, I can say that you wouldn't notice when a ST is used for music, since it surely isn't the YM2149 that's used but the MIDI to communicate with synths. >Indeed I do. Mind, I never had the advantage of growning up surrounded by >MIDI ports to learn from... ;) But you come from the country that brought us Teletubbies! ;-) >You can keep track of them however you like. Simply keeping a list of >modified opcode addresses is a good way for a CPU with a 16bit address bus, >whilst reserving oversized areas of memory for sub blocks (which, as they're >only a single instruction, can never be large than you single largest >emulated opcode) and compiling in the jump back to an area of the memory >that can't be overwritten (this is what you meant by 'zombie', is it?) would >work fine for 24/32bit buses. In the latter case, the first time the >instruction is modified you'd overwrite it with the jump to the sub-block >address and just forget about it. Ah, ok. What I meant with zombie is a memory location you don't have a pointer to any longer but which is still reserved. >You can tell how many bytes any instruction takes to compile because you >know how many bytes are needed to compile that instruction, sort of thing. >It's in the code already, and another lookup table (which could easily be >automatically generated at either compile or run time) should sort you out >for that one. You wouldn't need to overwrite long invalid x86 instruction >sequences with NOPs, because the jumping system would kick in at the start >of the sequence, and jump back to the first byte of the next emulated opcode >sequence, thus ignoring the rest of the system altogether. Sorry, just forgot that the jump at the end of the sub-block can simply transfer controll to the next instruction in sequence. >How? I'm talking about an instruction to skip over the two bytes of padding >code that doesn't strictly speaking need to be there (for padding REALLY >short emulated opcodes like NOP, which you can do in 0 bytes, without >accurate timing). Oops, got you wrong. I thought you wanted to use the relative jump to the sub -block instead of jumping over the gap that you'd normally have to fill with NOPs. >Sorry, I don't think I've got my thinking cap on straight today. I guess I forgot mine on the nightstand... >That lot >went right over my head. Are you saying that there would be modifications to >the main block? Other than overwriting the first five bytes of an opcodes >x86 machine code equivalent with a jump to the single opcode sub-block, >nothing in the main block is modified at all. If you mean problems with the >sub-block, the last five bytes (with the jump back to the main block encoded >in them) can be protected from being overwritten by simply ensuring that the >sub-block is five bytes bigger than the largest possible x86 opcode sequence >(a couple of hundred bytes at most). I'll make it more precise, take the following (senseless code) addq #1, d0 jmp mainloop sub #20, d0 jump end Say this code is called somewhere in the mainloop, so you'll have a block only consisting of: addq #1, d0 jmp mainloop But when D0 reaches a certain amount mainloop changes the JMP to NOPs, what will happen? Is the whole block recompiled or does it even lead to an error? addq #1, d0 nop... sub #20, d0 jump end >Andrew -- M.I.Ke Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 09:03:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17505 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DynaRec FAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38F73B2D.72AFD7C7@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003653ad5d57366_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003653a5fc07b08_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F73B2D.72AFD7C7@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:05:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> sloppy block approach >I like the sound of that. The downside is that it sounds like some bizarre >sexual disease... :)) I wonder what you're thinking about all the time! Any *productive* reactions? ;-) BTW, in the section "How to map translated code blocks?" I forgot to list UltraHLE's dirty illegal opcode trick. -- M.I.Ke What you don't know can hurt you, only you won't know it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 09:35:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA17642 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:33:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Pah! So give me some examples of music made with STs to be rude about. I > >simply can't think of anything of note! :þ > > Just as NB says about synths, I can say that you wouldn't notice when a ST is > used for music, since it surely isn't the YM2149 that's used but the MIDI to > communicate with synths. I've never been that much of a music fan, so I'm not really up on MIDIs, but don't you get different quality MIDI controllers? For instance, the sort of cheap crap they'd likely bung in the back of an inexpensive home computer would only have support for four MIDI channels, whilst a professional set up would require 8, 16, or 32 channels? > >Indeed I do. Mind, I never had the advantage of growning up surrounded by > >MIDI ports to learn from... ;) > > But you come from the country that brought us Teletubbies! ;-) Yeah, sorry about that! ;) Anyway, they didn't have Teletubbies to teach us pronunciation when I was a lad. They had the Klangers! Meep! > >You can keep track of them however you like. Simply keeping a list of > >modified opcode addresses is a good way for a CPU with a 16bit address bus, > >whilst reserving oversized areas of memory for sub blocks (which, as they're > >only a single instruction, can never be large than you single largest > >emulated opcode) and compiling in the jump back to an area of the memory > >that can't be overwritten (this is what you meant by 'zombie', is it?) would > >work fine for 24/32bit buses. In the latter case, the first time the > >instruction is modified you'd overwrite it with the jump to the sub-block > >address and just forget about it. > > Ah, ok. What I meant with zombie is a memory location you don't have a > pointer to any longer but which is still reserved. Ah, righto. I don't think I'd want to do that. That's asking for memory leakage trouble, that is. > >You can tell how many bytes any instruction takes to compile because you > >know how many bytes are needed to compile that instruction, sort of thing. > >It's in the code already, and another lookup table (which could easily be > >automatically generated at either compile or run time) should sort you out > >for that one. You wouldn't need to overwrite long invalid x86 instruction > >sequences with NOPs, because the jumping system would kick in at the start > >of the sequence, and jump back to the first byte of the next emulated opcode > >sequence, thus ignoring the rest of the system altogether. > > Sorry, just forgot that the jump at the end of the sub-block can simply > transfer controll to the next instruction in sequence. I don't know about simply. You've still got to work out exactly where the next instruction sequence is supposed to start, hence the extra lookup table. Support for self modificatication is a bloody nuisance! > >How? I'm talking about an instruction to skip over the two bytes of padding > >code that doesn't strictly speaking need to be there (for padding REALLY > >short emulated opcodes like NOP, which you can do in 0 bytes, without > >accurate timing). > > Oops, got you wrong. I thought you wanted to use the relative jump to the sub > -block instead of jumping over the gap that you'd normally have to fill with > NOPs. It could be added, but the chances of being able to use a word length offset to jump to the correct address are pretty slim, and I don't know about you, but I can't really be bothered to write code to test for that sort of stuff and compile the correct jump in! :) > >Sorry, I don't think I've got my thinking cap on straight today. > > I guess I forgot mine on the nightstand... :) It's work that's doing it. I'd be all right if I was sat at home with my feet up and a nice hot cup of tea! > >That lot > >went right over my head. Are you saying that there would be modifications to > >the main block? Other than overwriting the first five bytes of an opcodes > >x86 machine code equivalent with a jump to the single opcode sub-block, > >nothing in the main block is modified at all. If you mean problems with the > >sub-block, the last five bytes (with the jump back to the main block encoded > >in them) can be protected from being overwritten by simply ensuring that the > >sub-block is five bytes bigger than the largest possible x86 opcode sequence > >(a couple of hundred bytes at most). > > I'll make it more precise, take the following (senseless code) > > addq #1, d0 > jmp mainloop > sub #20, d0 > jump end > > Say this code is called somewhere in the mainloop, so you'll have a block > only consisting of: > > addq #1, d0 > jmp mainloop > > But when D0 reaches a certain amount mainloop changes the JMP to NOPs, what > will happen? Is the whole block recompiled or does it even lead to an error? > > addq #1, d0 > nop... > sub #20, d0 > jump end Right, got it. This would actually end up being supported by the system anyway, albeit in a slightly messy fashion. Just by way of explanation, I'm considering blocks to begin at whatever address is jumped to, and end at the first unconditional modification of the program counter. This means that your example above would be seen by the compiler as the two line version. It would compile that block and carry on merrily on its way. When the first jmp got modified to a nop it would (because it's stupid and doesn't check for nops) replace the jmp code with a jump to a block of code consisting of nothing more exciting than a jump back to the block termination code (the bit that flushes the CPU register caches back to memory, adds the number of clocks on to the timer, and rets back to the C/C++/whatever control loop). The PC would then be pointing at the 'sub' command, which hasn't been compiled, so this would be compiled for the first time as a two instruction block comprising the sub and the jmp. Everything would continue merrily on its way, and no harm would be done. Of course, that's not optimal because you've introduced a bit of jumping around in the code that really doesn't need to be there (a split block, of sorts), but a bit of clever compiler coding would allow you to spot recompilation of terminating opcodes and deal with it by compiling the rest of the block in after the initial block. > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 10:04:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17800 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 19:05:18 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I've never been that much of a music fan, so I'm not really up on MIDIs, but >don't you get different quality MIDI controllers? For instance, the sort of >cheap crap they'd likely bung in the back of an inexpensive home computer >would only have support for four MIDI channels, whilst a professional set up >would require 8, 16, or 32 channels? Don't ask me, I never used the MIDI of my ST. But I bet NB can answer your question. >Yeah, sorry about that! ;) Anyway, they didn't have Teletubbies to teach us >pronunciation when I was a lad. Lucky you! >They had the Klangers! Meep! Pardon? >Ah, righto. I don't think I'd want to do that. That's asking for memory >leakage trouble, that is. Indeed, that's why I was asking. >I don't know about simply. You've still got to work out exactly where the >next instruction sequence is supposed to start, hence the extra lookup >table. Support for self modificatication is a bloody nuisance! Too true! >It could be added, but the chances of being able to use a word length offset >to jump to the correct address are pretty slim, and I don't know about you, >but I can't really be bothered to write code to test for that sort of stuff >and compile the correct jump in! :) That's why I said that it could be complicated when I thought you were talking about exchanging the direct jumps with relative jumps and not the NOPs. >:) It's work that's doing it. I'd be all right if I was sat at home with my >feet up and a nice hot cup of tea! Yeah, a cup of black tea would be nice now ;-) >Right, got it. This would actually end up being supported by the system >anyway, albeit in a slightly messy fashion. Just by way of explanation, I'm >considering blocks to begin at whatever address is jumped to, and end at the >first unconditional modification of the program counter. NB does it the same way and I think I'd do it as well, although in compiler theory a basic block ends with the first conditional interruption of a code sequence. >This means that >your example above would be seen by the compiler as the two line version. It >would compile that block and carry on merrily on its way. I never saw a merry dynarec before! Is it AI? ;-) >When the first jmp >got modified to a nop it would (because it's stupid and doesn't check for >nops) replace the jmp code with a jump to a block of code consisting of >nothing more exciting than a jump back to the block termination code (the >bit that flushes the CPU register caches back to memory, adds the number of >clocks on to the timer, and rets back to the C/C++/whatever control loop). That's what I guessed. BTW, do you calculate the cycles at the end of each block? >The PC would then be pointing at the 'sub' command, which hasn't been >compiled, so this would be compiled for the first time as a two instruction >block comprising the sub and the jmp. Everything would continue merrily on >its way, and no harm would be done. Which leads exactly to the 2 blocks and 1 sub-block I expected. A bit spooky when you consider that I didn't really study that part of your code! >Of course, that's not optimal because >you've introduced a bit of jumping around in the code that really doesn't >need to be there (a split block, of sorts), but a bit of clever compiler >coding would allow you to spot recompilation of terminating opcodes and deal >with it by compiling the rest of the block in after the initial block. Well, the question is how often code shows such a behaviour anyway, but if it happens from time to time then replacing jumps and using nops as replacement should be specially handled. >Andrew -- M.I.Ke According to Kentucky state law, every person must take a bath at least once a year. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 10:08:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17839 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:08:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > FWIW, I have seen and worked a bit with the author of the dynarec 34010 > > emulator. He and I had completely different philosophies on how to do > > dynamic recompilation, so we went our separate ways. I didn't like the > > "assemble the preassembled blocks" approach. I still don't. > Assemble the preassembled blocks? How's that work, then? * Create a bunch of x86 assembly "covers" for each 34010 instruction * When you "recompile" it, you just memcpy() the cover to a new location * Use the "fill in the blanks" approach and just poke some values into specific locations in that cover Fairly wasteful and you can't do anything to eliminate some of the dead code. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 10:16:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17886 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:16:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Just as NB says about synths, I can say that you wouldn't notice when a ST > > used for music, since it surely isn't the YM2149 that's used but the MIDI > > communicate with synths. > I've never been that much of a music fan, so I'm not really up on MIDIs, but > don't you get different quality MIDI controllers? For instance, the sort of > cheap crap they'd likely bung in the back of an inexpensive home computer > would only have support for four MIDI channels, whilst a professional set up > would require 8, 16, or 32 channels? Unfortunately, people think that MIDI is a sound standard, like WAV. It's not! All MIDI is is a 31.5kbps serial interface that transfers note on/note off and various controller information. Inherently it has *NO* sound encoded in it at all. So for you to actually get sound out of a MIDI file, the device you're sending it to must have sound generation capabilities. What most people hear as "MIDI" files is what's called general MIDI. It's a list of sounds that are expected to be on certain channels and controlled with certain controllers (like volume), and it just takes the note data and generates sound out of it. The problem with it is that it sounds, well, general. Uninteresting. Boring. A MIDI interface is a MIDI interface. There's no way for you to actually hear the difference because they're just serial ports. The thing that makes the sound is what it's connected to. You could have the best MIDI interface in the world with the most horrid synths and create bad sounding music, and also have the worst MIDI interface in the world and connect it to execllent synths and have great music. FWIW, Tangerine Dream's Optical Race was done on a 1040ST. Quite a good album. Every MIDI interface comes with 16 channels per bus. Some MIDI interfaces only have 1 bus, some have 2 buses. As an example, I have a Mark Of The Unicorn MIDI Timepiece/AV, which has *8* MIDI buses (For a total of 128 channels). But all 16 MIDI channels go over the same bus. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 13:00:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18483 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:00:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:37:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > FWIW, I have seen and worked a bit with the author of the dynarec 34010 > > > emulator. He and I had completely different philosophies on how to do > > > dynamic recompilation, so we went our separate ways. I didn't like the > > > "assemble the preassembled blocks" approach. I still don't. > > Assemble the preassembled blocks? How's that work, then? > > * Create a bunch of x86 assembly "covers" for each 34010 instruction > * When you "recompile" it, you just memcpy() the cover to a new location > * Use the "fill in the blanks" approach and just poke some values into > specific locations in that cover > > Fairly wasteful and you can't do anything to eliminate some of the dead > code. Indeed, but it's much faster than standard compilation. The only use I can see for it is in recompiling (self-modification handling) cores, where it could be very neat indeed. > -->Neil Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 13:00:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18487 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:00:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001701bfa64c$1b01eea0$8f52883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:46:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Just as NB says about synths, I can say that you wouldn't notice when a ST > > > used for music, since it surely isn't the YM2149 that's used but the MIDI > > > communicate with synths. > > I've never been that much of a music fan, so I'm not really up on MIDIs, but > > don't you get different quality MIDI controllers? For instance, the sort of > > cheap crap they'd likely bung in the back of an inexpensive home computer > > would only have support for four MIDI channels, whilst a professional set up > > would require 8, 16, or 32 channels? > > Unfortunately, people think that MIDI is a sound standard, like WAV. It's > not! All MIDI is is a 31.5kbps serial interface that transfers note > on/note off and various controller information. Inherently it has *NO* > sound encoded in it at all. So for you to actually get sound out of a MIDI > file, the device you're sending it to must have sound generation > capabilities. > > What most people hear as "MIDI" files is what's called general MIDI. It's > a list of sounds that are expected to be on certain channels and > controlled with certain controllers (like volume), and it just takes the > note data and generates sound out of it. The problem with it is that it > sounds, well, general. Uninteresting. Boring. > > A MIDI interface is a MIDI interface. There's no way for you to actually > hear the difference because they're just serial ports. The thing that > makes the sound is what it's connected to. You could have the best MIDI > interface in the world with the most horrid synths and create bad sounding > music, and also have the worst MIDI interface in the world and connect it > to execllent synths and have great music. > > FWIW, Tangerine Dream's Optical Race was done on a 1040ST. Quite a good > album. > > Every MIDI interface comes with 16 channels per bus. Some MIDI interfaces > only have 1 bus, some have 2 buses. As an example, I have a Mark Of The > Unicorn MIDI Timepiece/AV, which has *8* MIDI buses (For a total of 128 > channels). But all 16 MIDI channels go over the same bus. Ah, right. I knew MIDI worked by instructing various prerecorded instruments (on your keyboard or your soundcard or whatever) to play at different pitches for different durations, but I thought it worked in parallel, thus the somewhat reduced number of possible instruments. How versatile is it? Do you specify specific notes, or actual frequencies, and, if so, how finely can you tune the frequencies? So am I correct in assuming that the ST only had a single bus? Did the later models have more? Also, how complex is the data required? The MIDI files I've got sat here on my PC are certainly teeny tiny compared to WAVs, MP3s, IT/XM, and suchlike, but most of them are still pushing 30k, which seems a lot for a few "play this note now" instructions. I've also got two copies of a song somewhere that sound pretty much identical, are of similar duration, but are massively different in size. 30k vs. 4k. Don't tell me someone's already invented MPMIDI? ;) Either that, or most people release WAVs of all the instruments used with their MIDI songs to ensure you've got the right stuff. > -->Neil Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 13:00:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18494 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:00:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:59:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Yeah, sorry about that! ;) Anyway, they didn't have Teletubbies to teach us > >pronunciation when I was a lad. > > Lucky you! Too right, although their artificially intelligent hoover is pretty cool. > >They had the Klangers! Meep! > > Pardon? Ever heard of Big Klanger, Small Klanger, Tiny Klanger? The Soup Dragon? Classic TV! If they don't show it in Germany you should start a petition or something. And get them to put on Mr Benn, too. And Bagpuss, that was brilliant. Fingermouse! Don't forget that! Cor... Nostalgia's setting in... > >:) It's work that's doing it. I'd be all right if I was sat at home with my > >feet up and a nice hot cup of tea! > > Yeah, a cup of black tea would be nice now ;-) Black tea? Urk! Milk in tea. Extra coffee in coffee. That's the way to do it! :) > >Right, got it. This would actually end up being supported by the system > >anyway, albeit in a slightly messy fashion. Just by way of explanation, I'm > >considering blocks to begin at whatever address is jumped to, and end at the > >first unconditional modification of the program counter. > > NB does it the same way and I think I'd do it as well, although in compiler > theory a basic block ends with the first conditional interruption of a code > sequence. Does it? I never did any courses on compilers. Unconditional modification is definately the way to go, though, because it's the largest blocksize you can easily measure, so you reduce fannying around time trying to sort out which block you should be running in and compiling new segments of code and stuff. > >This means that > >your example above would be seen by the compiler as the two line version. It > >would compile that block and carry on merrily on its way. > > I never saw a merry dynarec before! Is it AI? ;-) Nope, it's just pissed. "Ho ho ho... *hic*! Time for a GPF, mayhap? *burp* *giggle*". > >When the first jmp > >got modified to a nop it would (because it's stupid and doesn't check for > >nops) replace the jmp code with a jump to a block of code consisting of > >nothing more exciting than a jump back to the block termination code (the > >bit that flushes the CPU register caches back to memory, adds the number of > >clocks on to the timer, and rets back to the C/C++/whatever control loop). > > That's what I guessed. > BTW, do you calculate the cycles at the end of each block? When I can get away with it, yes. The loss of accuracy is pretty minor, so unless the system requires spot on perfect timing (because video/audio/secondary cpus require it) you can easily more than halve the x86 cycle count for a block by chopping out the cycle count and test, not to mention save a ton of space for your x86 caches. > >The PC would then be pointing at the 'sub' command, which hasn't been > >compiled, so this would be compiled for the first time as a two instruction > >block comprising the sub and the jmp. Everything would continue merrily on > >its way, and no harm would be done. > > Which leads exactly to the 2 blocks and 1 sub-block I expected. A bit spooky > when you consider that I didn't really study that part of your code! Well done that man. To be honest, I haven't studied it in a while myself, and I've probably gone and done something stupid that'll cause it to fall over in this sort of situation, but *theoretically* it should work fine. :) > >Of course, that's not optimal because > >you've introduced a bit of jumping around in the code that really doesn't > >need to be there (a split block, of sorts), but a bit of clever compiler > >coding would allow you to spot recompilation of terminating opcodes and deal > >with it by compiling the rest of the block in after the initial block. > > Well, the question is how often code shows such a behaviour anyway, but if it > happens from time to time then replacing jumps and using nops as replacement > should be specially handled. I doubt it'll happen enough to warrant the effort, really. Once or twice a program, if that. > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 13:29:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18609 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:29:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> Message-Id: <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 22:18:50 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >[code templates] >Indeed, but it's much faster than standard compilation. The only use I can >see for it is in recompiling (self-modification handling) cores, where it >could be very neat indeed. I'm not sure if it's really that much faster, but the "generated" code will certainly be slower since you cannot perform redundant flag calculation reduction or even simple peephole optimisations. When you don't have very severely self-modifying code then you'll be on the faster side with dynamic code generation after about the third run, I guess. -- M.I.Ke No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 13:29:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18622 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:29:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> Message-Id: <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 22:29:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Too right, although their artificially intelligent hoover is pretty cool. Don't tell me you're really watching it! >Ever heard of Big Klanger, Small Klanger, Tiny Klanger? The Soup Dragon? >Classic TV! If they don't show it in Germany you should start a petition or >something. And get them to put on Mr Benn, too. And Bagpuss, that was >brilliant. Fingermouse! Don't forget that! Cor... Nostalgia's setting in... Doesn't ring a bell... Maybe they changed the names? >Black tea? Urk! Milk in tea. Extra coffee in coffee. That's the way to do >it! :) I drink my tea without milk, but with a bit sugar. I have a great tea mixture - called Batavia - from Java, no not the language but the island ;-) >Does it? I never did any courses on compilers. It depends on which book you read, but most share the opinion that a basic block starts at the entry point and must be an uniterrupted sequence, and a conditional jump would be an interruption. >Unconditional modification is >definately the way to go, though, because it's the largest blocksize you can >easily measure, so you reduce fannying around time trying to sort out which >block you should be running in and compiling new segments of code and stuff. Indeed. >> I never saw a merry dynarec before! Is it AI? ;-) >Nope, it's just pissed. "Ho ho ho... *hic*! Time for a GPF, mayhap? *burp* >*giggle*". GPF? BTW, the portmonteau word from Lewis Carrol's book (was it "Alice in Wonderland" or "Through the Looking-Glass?") is "mayhaps", and a special one indeed because it's also a hen-dia-dioin ;-) Because you asked for a DR-FAQ: anything you want to be included? >Andrew -- M.I.Ke In the Top 40, half the songs are secret messages to the teen world to drop out, turn on, and groove with the chemicals and light shows at discotheques. -- Art Linkletter --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 13:37:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18664 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:37:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > * Use the "fill in the blanks" approach and just poke some values into > > specific locations in that cover > > Fairly wasteful and you can't do anything to eliminate some of the dead > > code. > Indeed, but it's much faster than standard compilation. The only use I can > see for it is in recompiling (self-modification handling) cores, where it > could be very neat indeed. I don't see why compilation speed would be an issue at all. Even recompling a 128K object only takes a fraction of a second, and during emulation you wouldn't notice it anyway. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 13:41:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18685 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:41:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <001701bfa64c$1b01eea0$8f52883e@ben> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Ah, right. I knew MIDI worked by instructing various prerecorded instruments > (on your keyboard or your soundcard or whatever) to play at different > pitches for different durations, but I thought it worked in parallel, thus > the somewhat reduced number of possible instruments. How versatile is it? Do > you specify specific notes, or actual frequencies, and, if so, how finely > can you tune the frequencies? It depends entirely upon the device you're talking to. That's like saying "What's the seek time over SCSI vs. IDE?" The seek time is bound to the drive - not to the interface itself. > So am I correct in assuming that the ST only had a single bus? Did the later > models have more? I think it only had one. At least the 1040. I never knew of a model that had more than one. Doesn't mean that it didn't exist, though. ;-) > Also, how complex is the data required? The MIDI files I've got sat here on > my PC are certainly teeny tiny compared to WAVs, That's because it's a list of notes and timestamps. It's not audio like MP3 or WAV. They aren't even comparable formats. MP3 and WAV files are just recorded audio. MIDI Is *NOT* recorded audio - it's like having the sheet music to a song. You still have to have something interpret the sheet music and turn it in to actual sound. > MP3s, IT/XM, and suchlike, > but most of them are still pushing 30k, which seems a lot for a few "play > this note now" instructions. Not really. You've got note on/note off messages, plus volume control changes and potentially patch changes too. Consider that a 3 note chord is 3 note on messages - 6 bytes each. So even short compositions can be fairly sizable. > I've also got two copies of a song somewhere > that sound pretty much identical, are of similar duration, but are massively > different in size. 30k vs. 4k. Don't tell me someone's already invented > MPMIDI? ;) Nope. What you're seeing in the 30k version is probably a bunch of minute controller changes like volume or perhaps panning, and that'll increase the size of the file. > Either that, or most people release WAVs of all the instruments used with > their MIDI songs to ensure you've got the right stuff. The thing about MIDI is you can compose on one set of synthesizers and it won't translate to another set, especailly if you start putting in controller changes. Think of the anaology: MIDI Is to wave as the SCSI bus is to a SCSI/Hard drive combo. MIDI Is just a serial interface - nothing more. It has no sound generating capabilities. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 14:58:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19017 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:58:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:56:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Too right, although their artificially intelligent hoover is pretty cool. > > Don't tell me you're really watching it! I know there's a hoover that is intelligent, but not much else. I only know what... well, what I haven't seen. I've never watched it! > >Ever heard of Big Klanger, Small Klanger, Tiny Klanger? The Soup Dragon? > >Classic TV! If they don't show it in Germany you should start a petition or > >something. And get them to put on Mr Benn, too. And Bagpuss, that was > >brilliant. Fingermouse! Don't forget that! Cor... Nostalgia's setting in... > > Doesn't ring a bell... Maybe they changed the names? Damn, you've missed out! Rhubarb and Custard? No? Oh no! ;) > >Black tea? Urk! Milk in tea. Extra coffee in coffee. That's the way to do > >it! :) > > I drink my tea without milk, but with a bit sugar. I have a great tea mixture > - called Batavia - from Java, no not the language but the island ;-) And I... don't drink tea nor coffee. Heh. :) > >> I never saw a merry dynarec before! Is it AI? ;-) > >Nope, it's just pissed. "Ho ho ho... *hic*! Time for a GPF, mayhap? *burp* > >*giggle*". > > GPF? General Protection Fault. You've used Windows? Blue Screen Of Death? Usually one of those... > Because you asked for a DR-FAQ: anything you want to be included? There's a couple of things I want, but my brain has switched off for now so I'll let you know tomorrow. BTW, Mike, any places you can recommend visiting in Bavaria? I fancy going somewhere on Sunday because it should be nice - but I have no idea where might be nice. :) Nuernburg is a possibility - but I'm not sure how much there will be to do on a Sunday... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 14 17:40:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19540 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:37:58 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I know there's a hoover that is intelligent, but not much else. I only know >what... well, what I haven't seen. I've never watched it! I hadn't assumed that *anything* in that show is intelligent at all! ;-) >Damn, you've missed out! Rhubarb and Custard? No? Oh no! ;) Well, do you know Pumukel or Jim Knopf? >And I... don't drink tea nor coffee. Heh. :) I don't drink coffee either... >General Protection Fault. You've used Windows? Blue Screen Of Death? Usually >one of those... Why do you all have to use these TLAs? ;-) >[DR-FAQ] >There's a couple of things I want, but my brain has switched off for now so Hey, you're pretty good at typing without your brain ;-) >I'll let you know tomorrow. OK. >BTW, Mike, any places you can recommend visiting in Bavaria? I fancy going >somewhere on Sunday because it should be nice - but I have no idea where >might be nice. :) Good question, I'm not really the traveller type... The Americans always seem to visit King Ludwig's castles (Neuschwanstein, Hohenschwangau), but I'm not sure if that's of interest for you. Bamberg is a very nice city, especially with very good beer ;-) >Nuernburg is a possibility - but I'm not sure how much there will be to do >on a Sunday... Well, most interesting locations will be closed, I'm afraid. Hey, you could even visit me ;-) -- M.I.Ke There has been an alarming increase in the number of things you know nothing about. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 01:42:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20979 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:42:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Grrrrr..... Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 04:43:19 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <200004100934.LAA00754@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F1A306.359D7B6@eurocopter.de> <000364e729ec91f7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F1CBDF.23705F97@eurocopter.de> <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <000364e7d1547fd9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Sorry, I've been busy and have fallen behind in reading. :( On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:02:22 +0200, Michael Koenig wrote: >>We've taken this into account too. I think too much is said about the >>"overheads". Yes, there are some. But you can get around most of them if >>you structure the code correctly. And make use of virtuals and pointers. > >If you are using pointers then it isn't clean C++... Just what do you mean by pointers not being clean C++? What the heck do you think a class instance is??? A pointer. To the instance and it's data/function pointers. Maybe I just don't understand something. I am self taught without the benefit (?) of college, so I haven't had the esoteric learning you all seem privy to. Only 20 years in the field experience. :) -- Jack ---- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 01:59:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21002 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:00:17 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> In-Reply-To: <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:35:00 +0200, Neil Griffiths wrote: >> No, because the big problem is not how to "retranslate" the code but how to >> quickly identify if the code has been modified! > >Split off each 4K (or less). If a write happens inside one of the 4K >blocks, mark it somewhere (you only need 1 bit to do this). If the IP gets >to that 4K then recompile. > >If you can handle going back to translate code again, this shouldn't be a >problem. And it should be pretty damn fast too. > >That's just a quick idea I've come up with. Probably isn't the best in the >world - but I did come up with it in just under 5 seconds. :) What if the opcode and it's parameters cross the 4KB block split? Look ahead a fixed number of bytes based on the maximum opcode size for a particular processor? -- Jack ---- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 02:17:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA21195 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:18:34 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <200004141006.MAA14082@pons.ac.upc.es> <007a01bfa5fa$a8257f60$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38F6F57E.50BCAD82@eurocopter.de> In-Reply-To: <38F6F57E.50BCAD82@eurocopter.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:39:58 +0200, Neil Griffiths wrote: >Hi, > >> It would definately be interesting, but think how much work it would take! >> Actually, I believe that some of the bigger processor manufacturers emulate >> new CPU designs before they actually start pouring millions into producing >> real live versions... it would certainly make some sense for them to, >> anyway. However, I'd imagine that they emulate them at a much lower level >> than we do. > >I know for a fact that most graphics chip companies do this. It may be >possible at some point for me to get the source to one of S3s chips in the >future. That could be interesting. Written in C, IIRC... Video hardware code is not written in C, but it is very C-like. >I find it hard to believe that AMD and Intel don't do the same. :) I can't say how CPUs are designed, only video hardware. ;) -- Jack ---- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 02:19:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA21204 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:21:09 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: <+zP4OJS1KUQqcZ6lWf3YAAA8z3LH@4ax.com> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:40:48 +0200, Michael Koenig wrote: >>Heh! :) Spawn of the devil, those Atari things... (Says the bloke with a >>pile of old Amigas living in his garage) > >AHHH, take that you fiend! I have a Atari Mega STE 4 ready to run and a >1040ST in the antic! >BTW, do we really want to carry on with that Atari vs Amiga feud? ;-) I have both an ST and an Amiga. I'm feeling conflicted. :) -- Jack ---- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 02:21:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA21216 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Jack To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:23:06 -0400 Organization: Three Indians Loony Bin and Fast Food Joint Message-ID: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> In-Reply-To: <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:33:31 +0100, "Andrew Davidson" wrote: >> Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! Atari rules! Doesn't >matter! >> Doesn't matter! ;-) > >Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! They do not! Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! > >We may just have invented a whole new form of communication... ;) Sorry, 6 year olds have been using this technique for millennia. :p -- Jack ---- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 02:47:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA21256 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036549a9001480_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:46:12 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >>Split off each 4K (or less). If a write happens inside one of the 4K >>blocks, mark it somewhere (you only need 1 bit to do this). If the IP gets >>to that 4K then recompile. >>If you can handle going back to translate code again, this shouldn't be a >>problem. And it should be pretty damn fast too. >What if the opcode and it's parameters cross the 4KB block split? Look >ahead a fixed number of bytes based on the maximum opcode size for a >particular processor? That's a good qestion indeed, I'll have to think about it... >Jack -- M.I.Ke Necessity is a mother. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 05:19:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23834 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:03:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >[code templates] > >Indeed, but it's much faster than standard compilation. The only use I can > >see for it is in recompiling (self-modification handling) cores, where it > >could be very neat indeed. > > I'm not sure if it's really that much faster, but the "generated" code will > certainly be slower since you cannot perform redundant flag calculation > reduction or even simple peephole optimisations. > When you don't have very severely self-modifying code then you'll be on the > faster side with dynamic code generation after about the third run, I guess. I suppose it depends on how efficiently your 'normal' compiler works. However, I'm certainly not suggesting you'd use the precompiled version the whole time as, yes, it would kill off any execution speed optimisations you could get. Just to really upset you I'd use it with your other least favourite emulation method, the hybrid system! ;) You'd only start using the precompiled stuff when something needed recompiling, and use the normal, slower to compile, but easily optimised method for the initial compile of any code block. If you combined those with the block splitting method you might even be able to get a decent speed going for most self modifying code stuff. > -- > M.I.Ke > > No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it. Even your random sig generator is starting to get worried about the amount of work in an optimised compiler with precompiled sub-block based dynarec support! Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 05:19:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23845 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002201bfa6d4$e58f13e0$163d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:26:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Too right, although their artificially intelligent hoover is pretty cool. > > Don't tell me you're really watching it! Erm... err... I turned the telly on one day by accident and there it was. Honest. I couldn't help it. They held me down and made me watch it! I didn't want to! > >Ever heard of Big Klanger, Small Klanger, Tiny Klanger? The Soup Dragon? > >Classic TV! If they don't show it in Germany you should start a petition or > >something. And get them to put on Mr Benn, too. And Bagpuss, that was > >brilliant. Fingermouse! Don't forget that! Cor... Nostalgia's setting in... > > Doesn't ring a bell... Maybe they changed the names? Okay. The Klangers are made of felt and live on the moon. When they're hungry they go down to visit the Soup Dragon who gives them some horrible looking green soup. If I was a Klanger I'd have snapped and waxed the bitch years ago, just for the opportunity for a bit of red meat! Mr Benn is the mecca of childrens TV. Every day Mr. Benn leaves his house and walks to the fancy dress party costume rental shop. There the mysterious 'Shop Keeper' gives him a new outfit, which he goes into the changing room to try on. When he's put it on he leaves the changing room and finds himself in a whole new world that pertains to his outfit. He's been all over the place. A pirate, an astronaut, a cowboy.... loads of stuff. At the end of the episode the voiceover man says "As if by magic, the shopkeeper appeared" and he's led through a door that goes back to the changing room. It's a cartoon, and probably explains why I grew up like I did. Mr. Benn never bloody had to work, so why should I? Bagpuss! Bagpuss is brilliant! He's a big, slow, thick soft toy who comes to life at the start of every episode. "And when Bagpuss wakes up, all his friends wake up". So you get this funny wooden bookend in the shape of a woodpecker, a raggity-anne doll, a one of those frogs that's really a mini beanbag, and, of course, the mice. They all live in a shop owned by a little girl called Emily, I think, (who's going to be in real trouble when the DHSS Child Labour division lot get word of it!) and she brings in something old and knackered every episode which the mice fix, whilst singing "We will fix it, we will fix it!". Probably the best remembered episode is the one where the mice con everybody into thinking that some weird dolls house thing that Emily's brought in is actually a chocolate biscuit making machine. Wonderful stuff. Fingermouse, is, well, brilliant. I need a bigger vocabulary! It must have been made on a budget of £3.50, and involves a mouse made out of a tube of cardboard stuck on someone's middle finger, the rest of their fingers doing the job of legs. He's got big whiskers! It's a classic example of the BBC being stingy bastards and trying to cut costs, but still managing to produce something really rather special. Ahhh... memories. > >Black tea? Urk! Milk in tea. Extra coffee in coffee. That's the way to do > >it! :) > > I drink my tea without milk, but with a bit sugar. I have a great tea mixture > - called Batavia - from Java, no not the language but the island ;-) I thought they only did coffee. And you shouldn't put sugar in either! It masks the taste... > >Does it? I never did any courses on compilers. > > It depends on which book you read, but most share the opinion that a basic > block starts at the entry point and must be an uniterrupted sequence, and a > conditional jump would be an interruption. But it only *might* be an interruption. What do they do if it isn't? Or is this conditional jumps in the initial language, rather than in the machine code? Although that'd be a bit useless for Assembler... > >Unconditional modification is > >definately the way to go, though, because it's the largest blocksize you can > >easily measure, so you reduce fannying around time trying to sort out which > >block you should be running in and compiling new segments of code and stuff. > > Indeed. Is everybody in agreement? Put that in the FAQ! ;) > >> I never saw a merry dynarec before! Is it AI? ;-) > >Nope, it's just pissed. "Ho ho ho... *hic*! Time for a GPF, mayhap? *burp* > >*giggle*". > > GPF? General Protection Fault. I take it you're into Linux, then... > BTW, the portmonteau word from Lewis Carrol's book (was it "Alice in > Wonderland" or "Through the Looking-Glass?") is "mayhaps", and a special one > indeed because it's also a hen-dia-dioin ;-) Well... you can hardly expect a drunken, merry, non-AIy code translator to know that, now can you. The poor chap's only just got the Horatio/well thing sorted out... > Because you asked for a DR-FAQ: anything you want to be included? Everything! One of those multi volume 10MB download thingies would be ideal. All the URLs on your page would be nice too, because that gives me even less chance of losing them! :) > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 05:19:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23852 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002301bfa6d4$e80ce520$163d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:30:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > * Use the "fill in the blanks" approach and just poke some values into > > > specific locations in that cover > > > Fairly wasteful and you can't do anything to eliminate some of the dead > > > code. > > Indeed, but it's much faster than standard compilation. The only use I can > > see for it is in recompiling (self-modification handling) cores, where it > > could be very neat indeed. > > I don't see why compilation speed would be an issue at all. Even > recompling a 128K object only takes a fraction of a second, and during > emulation you wouldn't notice it anyway. Yeah, but recompiling it a few hundred times a second takes a few hundred fractions of a second. Recompiling it a few thousand times a second takes s Cray. I'm not talking about using this method for the initial compilation of a block. Just for any recompilation that may be needed in the event of self-modifying code, in which case you'd need as much compilation speed as possible. Sacrificing a few thousand execution cycles is well worth it to save a few hundred thousand (or tens of thousands if you turn some of the optimisation off) compilation cycles. > -->Neil Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 05:19:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23862 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:19:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002401bfa6d4$e985c980$163d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:57:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Ah, right. I knew MIDI worked by instructing various prerecorded instruments > > (on your keyboard or your soundcard or whatever) to play at different > > pitches for different durations, but I thought it worked in parallel, thus > > the somewhat reduced number of possible instruments. How versatile is it? Do > > you specify specific notes, or actual frequencies, and, if so, how finely > > can you tune the frequencies? > > It depends entirely upon the device you're talking to. That's like saying > "What's the seek time over SCSI vs. IDE?" The seek time is bound to the > drive - not to the interface itself. Surely there's an industry standard way of talking to a keyboard or synth or whatever it is you've got your MIDI plugged into. Otherwise all the keyboard manufacturers would be running around expecting their own format to be used and requiring that you have custom software for each different keyboard you buy. They can't be that stupid, can they? I owned a really crap MIDI years ago, which I bought to plug my Amiga into a cheap and nasty Yamaha keyboard. I remember them working fine with MED and SoundTracker, and I didn't need to inform the Amiga of the make and manufacturer of the thing. > > So am I correct in assuming that the ST only had a single bus? Did the later > > models have more? > > I think it only had one. At least the 1040. I never knew of a model that > had more than one. Doesn't mean that it didn't exist, though. ;-) What's the price range from a single bus MIDI to one of those eight bus things like you've got? Given that it's such a simple device you'd think they'd be pretty cheap regardless of the number of buses, but I bet they charge a fortune. > > Also, how complex is the data required? The MIDI files I've got sat here on > > my PC are certainly teeny tiny compared to WAVs, > > That's because it's a list of notes and timestamps. It's not audio like > MP3 or WAV. > > They aren't even comparable formats. MP3 and WAV files are just recorded > audio. MIDI Is *NOT* recorded audio - it's like having the sheet music to > a song. You still have to have something interpret the sheet music and > turn it in to actual sound. Indeed, but what I'm asking is: How often can you make changes to the note that's currently playing. I think that's a better way of describing it. In all the old Amiga Tracker programs you could do volume slides and frequency changes and stuff, but you couldn't do all that many a second. What's the maximum data frequency over a MIDI bus, and do you need top of the range hardware at the other end to be able to respond to it (thus is there a recommended cap, or just a hardware limited maximum). > > MP3s, IT/XM, and suchlike, > > but most of them are still pushing 30k, which seems a lot for a few "play > > this note now" instructions. > > Not really. You've got note on/note off messages, plus volume control > changes and potentially patch changes too. Consider that a 3 note chord is > 3 note on messages - 6 bytes each. So even short compositions can be > fairly sizable. So how do you set which note to play? Do send a note on message with a specific note frequency, or is it more limited than that? Do you send a note on message with a 'Play C#' message? I'm really getting out of my depth here, because I can't read sheet music and I don't understand the principles behind it, but how many note on messages are you likely to get a second? Isn't the standard four beats to the bar? And most notes are... One beat? Half a beat? So that's roughly 6 notes a second (I'll take an average until you fill me in on the details) plus potentially chords and stuff, which is probably around eight bytes a second of data on average? Is that right? That would lead to a 30k song being a bit over an hour... possibly a tad low. :) > > I've also got two copies of a song somewhere > > that sound pretty much identical, are of similar duration, but are massively > > different in size. 30k vs. 4k. Don't tell me someone's already invented > > MPMIDI? ;) > > Nope. What you're seeing in the 30k version is probably a bunch of minute > controller changes like volume or perhaps panning, and that'll increase > the size of the file. Aha! This is what I'm after. How minute can these changes be? > > Either that, or most people release WAVs of all the instruments used with > > their MIDI songs to ensure you've got the right stuff. > > The thing about MIDI is you can compose on one set of synthesizers and it > won't translate to another set, especailly if you start putting in > controller changes. I was thinking about computer MIDIs, though, which allow you to upload sample data to the soundcard as MIDI instruments. > Think of the anaology: > > MIDI Is to wave as the SCSI bus is to a SCSI/Hard drive combo. MIDI Is > just a serial interface - nothing more. It has no sound generating > capabilities. Yep, fear not. I've got that sussed. It's just like the old Tracker mods (except without the instrument data included in the file, except in certain MIDI files intended for play on a soundcard. Erk!) > -->Neil Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 05:19:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23870 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002501bfa6d4$eb41d160$163d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:05:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > >Too right, although their artificially intelligent hoover is pretty cool. > > > > Don't tell me you're really watching it! > > I know there's a hoover that is intelligent, but not much else. I only know > what... well, what I haven't seen. I've never watched it! Ha! Don't believe him! He sends me regular urgent flagged emails to warn me when it's coming on! > > >Ever heard of Big Klanger, Small Klanger, Tiny Klanger? The Soup Dragon? > > >Classic TV! If they don't show it in Germany you should start a petition > or > > >something. And get them to put on Mr Benn, too. And Bagpuss, that was > > >brilliant. Fingermouse! Don't forget that! Cor... Nostalgia's setting > in... > > > > Doesn't ring a bell... Maybe they changed the names? > > Damn, you've missed out! Rhubarb and Custard? No? Oh no! ;) Oh, that was amazing! The music's great. Despite my best efforts, however, it doesn't translate to email very well... wooooooooaaaah da da woooooooaaaah da da wooah da da da da... See? Mind, Rhubarb and Custard is one of the newer ones... It's not got so much nostalgia value. > > >> I never saw a merry dynarec before! Is it AI? ;-) > > >Nope, it's just pissed. "Ho ho ho... *hic*! Time for a GPF, mayhap? > *burp* > > >*giggle*". > > > > GPF? > > General Protection Fault. You've used Windows? Blue Screen Of Death? Usually > one of those... I'm pretty sure he must be a Linux type. Maybe BeOS. Either that or he's like me and just hits the reset button in a huff every time his computer BSODs, without reading the chirpy little messages. Partially debugged self writing emulator cores just don't seem to get on very well with Windows... > Neil. Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 05:44:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23902 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:44:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01bfa6d8$60ec2a20$163d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <00036537ae152139_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <019401bfa60d$a5234140$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:36:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:33:31 +0100, "Andrew Davidson" > wrote: > > >> Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter! Atari rules! Doesn't > >matter! > >> Doesn't matter! ;-) > > > >Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! They do not! Indeed! Indeed! Indeed! > > > >We may just have invented a whole new form of communication... ;) > > Sorry, 6 year olds have been using this technique for millennia. :p No they haven't! No they haven't! No they haven't! You're Mr. Poo! No they haven't! No they haven't! Anyway, what makes you think I'm NOT six? :) > -- > Jack Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 05:44:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23909 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:44:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004b01bfa6d8$625be6c0$163d883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> <00036549a9001480_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:43:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >>Split off each 4K (or less). If a write happens inside one of the 4K > >>blocks, mark it somewhere (you only need 1 bit to do this). If the IP gets > >>to that 4K then recompile. > >>If you can handle going back to translate code again, this shouldn't be a > >>problem. And it should be pretty damn fast too. > > >What if the opcode and it's parameters cross the 4KB block split? Look > >ahead a fixed number of bytes based on the maximum opcode size for a > >particular processor? > > That's a good qestion indeed, I'll have to think about it... Is this actually a problem? Your compiler isn't being limited by these blocks in any way. It isn't even aware of them. If the last byte of a block is modified you'd recompile the code from the address that maps to that last byte, which would also deal with the code in the next block. All you have to do is make sure you treat the 4K blocks as one big block when you're unflagging modified bytes (during recompilation), so as to catch half an instruction at the start of the block. Personally, I'd not use 4K blocks, though. Some sort of modified memory -> compiled block mapper that would allow me to flag, say, block 43 as having been messed with at some stage, would be better. > >Jack > > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 06:03:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23955 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 06:03:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> Message-Id: <0003654c23660aca_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:43:35 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I suppose it depends on how efficiently your 'normal' compiler works. >However, I'm certainly not suggesting you'd use the precompiled version the >whole time as, yes, it would kill off any execution speed optimisations you >could get. One point for me. >Just to really upset you I'd use it with your other least >favourite emulation method, the hybrid system! ;) I've seen so much crap dynarec code so far that it takes a bit more to upset me ;-) >You'd only start using the >precompiled stuff when something needed recompiling, and use the normal, >slower to compile, but easily optimised method for the initial compile of >any code block. If you combined those with the block splitting method you >might even be able to get a decent speed going for most self modifying code >stuff. Hey, you could even have an interpreter for the initialization code of the ROM which is only executed once, but why should you implement three methods to get one thing running? >> No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it. >Even your random sig generator is starting to get worried about the amount >of work in an optimised compiler with precompiled sub-block based dynarec >support! Yeah, this is true AI! >Andrew -- M.I.Ke "One planet is all you get." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 06:03:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23967 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 06:03:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <002201bfa6d4$e58f13e0$163d883e@ben> Message-Id: <0003654c4f4c3ff2_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002201bfa6d4$e58f13e0$163d883e@ben> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:55:52 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Erm... err... I turned the telly on one day by accident and there it was. >Honest. I couldn't help it. They held me down and made me watch it! I didn't >want to! Who is they? The same as in "Oh my god, they killed Kenny?" >Okay. The Klangers are made of felt and live on the moon. Don't know it. >Mr Benn is the mecca of childrens TV. Every day Mr. Benn leaves his house >and walks to the fancy dress party costume rental shop. There the mysterious >'Shop Keeper' gives him a new outfit, which he goes into the changing room >to try on. When he's put it on he leaves the changing room and finds himself >in a whole new world that pertains to his outfit. No. >Bagpuss! Bagpuss is brilliant! He's a big, slow, thick soft toy who comes to >life at the start of every episode. "And when Bagpuss wakes up, all his >friends wake up". Sounds a bit familiar. >They all live in a shop owned by a little >girl called Emily, I think, (who's going to be in real trouble when the DHSS >Child Labour division lot get word of it!) Hehe. >Fingermouse, is, well, brilliant. I need a bigger vocabulary! It must have >been made on a budget of £3.50, and involves a mouse made out of a tube of >cardboard stuck on someone's middle finger, the rest of their fingers doing >the job of legs. He's got big whiskers! It's a classic example of the BBC >being stingy bastards and trying to cut costs, but still managing to produce >something really rather special. It doesn't take much money to make a child's eyes glow ;-) >Ahhh... memories. How much RAM? ;-) >I thought they only did coffee. Nope, certainly not. >And you shouldn't put sugar in either! It masks the taste... As does milk, I bet. >But it only *might* be an interruption. What do they do if it isn't? >Or is this conditional jumps in the initial language, rather than in the >machine code? Although that'd be a bit useless for Assembler... I guess this is why not all definitions of basic block are the same. But normally when the sequence might be interrupted somewhere (by an instruction of course and not an interrupt) then this is where the basic block ends. >Is everybody in agreement? Put that in the FAQ! ;) I'll mention both... >General Protection Fault. I take it you're into Linux, then... I only use Linux for LaTeX. I was just too tired for a good guess what the TLA means. >Well... you can hardly expect a drunken, merry, non-AIy code translator to >know that, now can you. Why not? >The poor chap's only just got the Horatio/well thing sorted out... Oh no, you should try to teach it some Sokrates at least! >> Because you asked for a DR-FAQ: anything you want to be included? >Everything! Since I'm more or less a theoretician it's hard for me to cover everything, especially when no-one tells me what everything is. >One of those multi volume 10MB download thingies would be ideal. Ok, your turn to do that! ;-) >All the URLs on your page would be nice too, I planned to do that with more comments on the specific aproaches and maybe even a list of most dynarec emulators around. >because that gives me even less chance of losing them! :) How about saving the page to disk? It doesn't have any images so you get the complete set. >Andrew -- M.I.Ke For perfect happiness, remember two things: (1) Be content with what you've got. (2) Be sure you've got plenty. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 06:03:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23971 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 06:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <002501bfa6d4$eb41d160$163d883e@ben> Message-Id: <0003654c6e33796c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <002501bfa6d4$eb41d160$163d883e@ben> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:04:30 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'm pretty sure he must be a Linux type. Not really. >Maybe BeOS. Good guess ;-) I worked on TOS for several years, then RISC OS (yes, I have an English computer!), then on Windoze and Linux, and now I'm quite happy with BeOS - stable, fast, and nice to use. >Either that or he's >like me and just hits the reset button in a huff every time his computer >BSODs, without reading the chirpy little messages. Hey, it's always the came blabla anyway! BTW, how can you tell that Windows is installed on a computer without turning it on? You cannot read the letters on the reset button anymore! ;-) >Partially debugged self >writing emulator cores just don't seem to get on very well with Windows... When it crashes on BeOS you're asked if you want to start the debugger and no harm is made to the system itself. BTW, you must be a guy with multiple personalities, otherwise it's hard to explain why you were so silten in the beginning and now make more postings than I do... >Andrew -- M.I.Ke Song Title of the Week: "They're putting dimes in the hole in my head to see the change in me." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 10:55:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25058 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:55:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:55:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <002401bfa6d4$e985c980$163d883e@ben> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It depends entirely upon the device you're talking to. That's like saying > > "What's the seek time over SCSI vs. IDE?" The seek time is bound to the > > drive - not to the interface itself. > Surely there's an industry standard way of talking to a keyboard or synth or > whatever it is you've got your MIDI plugged into. There is for actual notes and volume control changes, but everything else is up to the manufacturer. All the expressiveness of filter cutoff, when LFOs are triggered, etc... is completely different on every synth. That's because the structure of each synth is entirely different from the next. Standardizing such a thing would be severely limiting what the manufacturer could (or could not) do with the structure of the synth. > Otherwise all the keyboard > manufacturers would be running around expecting their own format to be used > and requiring that you have custom software for each different keyboard you > buy. They can't be that stupid, can they? This is the way it is! Unless you want to use general MIDI, which varies in style/sound from synth to synth, but even then that only gives you patches and notes on certain channels (and thusly sucks). > I owned a really crap MIDI years ago, which I bought to plug my Amiga into a > cheap and nasty Yamaha keyboard. I remember them working fine with MED and > SoundTracker, and I didn't need to inform the Amiga of the make and > manufacturer of the thing. If all you're doing is just basic notes it'll work with any synth. I really doubt you were changing resonance frequencies or anything complex. Cheap and nasty Yamaha keyboards don't have thea bility tochange this stuff anyway. > > I think it only had one. At least the 1040. I never knew of a model that > > had more than one. Doesn't mean that it didn't exist, though. ;-) > What's the price range from a single bus MIDI to one of those eight bus > things like you've got? Given that it's such a simple device you'd think > they'd be pretty cheap regardless of the number of buses, but I bet they > charge a fortune. For a PC, I think single MIDI ports are around $49. The MIDI Timepiece AV is $395, but also consider it does more than just MIDI. It also speaks house timecode, video synchronization, MIDI time code, and ADAT machine control and is able to translate between them all. It also has a lot of funky routing and filtering capabilities that a regular single port MIDI interface wouldn't have. > > They aren't even comparable formats. MP3 and WAV files are just recorded > > audio. MIDI Is *NOT* recorded audio - it's like having the sheet music to > > a song. You still have to have something interpret the sheet music and > > turn it in to actual sound. > Indeed, but what I'm asking is: How often can you make changes to the note > that's currently playing. I think that's a better way of describing it. In > all the old Amiga Tracker programs you could do volume slides and frequency > changes and stuff, but you couldn't do all that many a second. What's the > maximum data frequency over a MIDI bus, and do you need top of the range > hardware at the other end to be able to respond to it (thus is there a > recommended cap, or just a hardware limited maximum). Even cheap hardware (486s and the like) can deal with it pretty fast. It's a 31.5kbps stream, which is about 320 microseconds per byte. Each MIDI message is 2 or 3 bytes long on average, so you're looking at almost a millisecond maximum for note on/note off transitions. But in practice each synthesizer responds in more like 3-6 milliseconds after the note has been received. So there's usually a lag. But there's no difference in one MIDI interface over the next. It's just like a serial port - like a regular serial port that's slower than the one on the back of any PC. > > Not really. You've got note on/note off messages, plus volume control > > changes and potentially patch changes too. Consider that a 3 note chord is > > 3 note on messages - 6 bytes each. So even short compositions can be > > fairly sizable. > So how do you set which note to play? Do send a note on message with a > specific note frequency, or is it more limited than that? Do you send a note > on message with a 'Play C#' message? Yes, exactly. There's an 8 octave range, and you just send it a number. C0 Is 32, C#0 is 33, D0 is 34, etc... and so on. In your note on message, you also send it a velocity from 0 to 127. That note will stay on until you send it a note off command. > I'm really getting out of my depth here, because I can't read sheet music > and I don't understand the principles behind it, but how many note on > messages are you likely to get a second? It's entirely dependent on the music. Something like the Moonlight Sonota has much less note data because it's mostly quarter notes. But take something like Rage over a Lost Penny and it's quite a bit higher than that. > Isn't the standard four beats to > the bar? There is no "standard". It's entirely dependent on the song. > And most notes are... One beat? Half a beat? So that's roughly 6 > notes a second (I'll take an average until you fill me in on the details) > plus potentially chords and stuff, which is probably around eight bytes a > second of data on average? Is that right? That would lead to a 30k song > being a bit over an hour... possibly a tad low. :) What you're trying to do here is take something that's extremely broad and making it narrow and general. Music just doesn't work that way. Basically, the faster the notes come in the music the larger the file is going to be, since each note on/note off is recorded. > > Nope. What you're seeing in the 30k version is probably a bunch of minute > > controller changes like volume or perhaps panning, and that'll increase > > the size of the file. > Aha! This is what I'm after. How minute can these changes be? The fastest you can make them go is about 640 milliseconds (two bytes for controller messages) per control change. > > The thing about MIDI is you can compose on one set of synthesizers and it > > won't translate to another set, especailly if you start putting in > > controller changes. > I was thinking about computer MIDIs, though, which allow you to upload > sample data to the soundcard as MIDI instruments. I have no idea what you mean, here. If you're talking about feeding a MIDI file to the sound card (Which is a general MIDI device interanlly), the card does all the sound generation. MIDI Does not transport actual audio data. Unless you're talking about SMIDI which is only available for samplers (and is today an abandoned standard) and it's dog slow. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 10:57:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25072 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs In-Reply-To: <002301bfa6d4$e80ce520$163d883e@ben> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I don't see why compilation speed would be an issue at all. Even > > recompling a 128K object only takes a fraction of a second, and during > > emulation you wouldn't notice it anyway. > Yeah, but recompiling it a few hundred times a second takes a few hundred > fractions of a second. It depends. If your target code has no self modifying code then I fail to see why this would make any difference. > a block. Just for any recompilation that may be needed in the event of > self-modifying code, in which case you'd need as much compilation speed as > possible. But you shouldn't focus on that or even be concerned about it. It seldom happens. And in the case where it does quite frequently, an emulated CPU core would be a better approach because a well written emulated CPU is going to be faster than any recompiler. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 15:35:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26081 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:35:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000201bfa72a$e27d7100$423a883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> <0003654c23660aca_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:51:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I suppose it depends on how efficiently your 'normal' compiler works. > >However, I'm certainly not suggesting you'd use the precompiled version the > >whole time as, yes, it would kill off any execution speed optimisations you > >could get. > > One point for me. He shoots... he scores! ;) > >Just to really upset you I'd use it with your other least > >favourite emulation method, the hybrid system! ;) > > I've seen so much crap dynarec code so far that it takes a bit more to upset > me ;-) It's not the dynarec code that you have to worry about. It's the machine code it generates... > >You'd only start using the > >precompiled stuff when something needed recompiling, and use the normal, > >slower to compile, but easily optimised method for the initial compile of > >any code block. If you combined those with the block splitting method you > >might even be able to get a decent speed going for most self modifying code > >stuff. > > Hey, you could even have an interpreter for the initialization code of the > ROM which is only executed once, but why should you implement three methods > to get one thing running? Because it's faster. The whole point of using a compiled CPU core is because an interpreted core is too slow. If you spend your whole time making your code readable, size efficient, and beautifully designed you'll end up with a beautiful, small, easily modified total waste of disk space. Speed speed speed! If ANSI goes out the window, who cares? > >> No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it. > >Even your random sig generator is starting to get worried about the amount > >of work in an optimised compiler with precompiled sub-block based dynarec > >support! > > Yeah, this is true AI! There's a bloke on the comp.sys.sinclair newsgroup that has a random Spectrum error message tagged to the end of each of his emails. Whenever there's the faintest hint of a Speccy error that could fit the topic of conversation it'll come up! > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 15:35:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26090 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bfa72a$e4b81ec0$423a883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <002501bfa6d4$eb41d160$163d883e@ben> <0003654c6e33796c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:56:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I'm pretty sure he must be a Linux type. > > Not really. > > >Maybe BeOS. > > Good guess ;-) > I worked on TOS for several years, then RISC OS (yes, I have an English > computer!), then on Windoze and Linux, and now I'm quite happy with BeOS - > stable, fast, and nice to use. Are you using the freebie version, or has the full price edition come out yet? Being limited to half a gig of harddrive can't be nice. > >Either that or he's > >like me and just hits the reset button in a huff every time his computer > >BSODs, without reading the chirpy little messages. > > Hey, it's always the came blabla anyway! > BTW, how can you tell that Windows is installed on a computer without turning > it on? > You cannot read the letters on the reset button anymore! ;-) Rubbish! I haven't even got any letters on my reset button! Erm... ah. Damn... > >Partially debugged self > >writing emulator cores just don't seem to get on very well with Windows... > > When it crashes on BeOS you're asked if you want to start the debugger and no > harm is made to the system itself. The same thing happens in Windows if you've got VC++ installed. The only difference being, I assume, that BeOS catches more errors. Still, I bet it's got holes somewhere. Has it ever crashed properly on you? > BTW, you must be a guy with multiple personalities, otherwise it's hard to > explain why you were so silten in the beginning and now make more postings > than I do... I was busy with work, was only subscribed to the mailing list from home, and was coding away happily when I was at home. This week I've been pretty bored and not in a programming mood at all, so I decided to inflict myself on the rest of you. Hard luck! ;) > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 15 18:15:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26683 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:15:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <000201bfa72a$e27d7100$423a883e@ben> Message-Id: <00036556a136e1f9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> <0003654c23660aca_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <000201bfa72a$e27d7100$423a883e@ben> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:14:36 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It's not the dynarec code that you have to worry about. It's the machine >code it generates... It's both. On one hand I thought I had to go blind when I saw MIPS dynarecs generating the following code for each simple instruction: mov eax, simRs1 operation eax, simRs2 mov simRd, eax On the other hand many dynarecs generate the code the following way: GenCodePointer += 0x12345678; /* emitt instruction whatsoever */ This is of course very easy to read and very easy to extend or debug... >> Hey, you could even have an interpreter for the initialization code of the >> ROM which is only executed once, but why should you implement three >>methods to get one thing running? >Because it's faster. The whole point of using a compiled CPU core is because >an interpreted core is too slow. If you spend your whole time making your >code readable, size efficient, and beautifully designed you'll end up with a >beautiful, small, easily modified total waste of disk space. Speed speed >speed! If ANSI goes out the window, who cares? But if you have such weird, large scale self-modifying code then it would be easier just to implement a very optimised interpretive core, as it won't be worth the hassle to do a dynarec. >There's a bloke on the comp.sys.sinclair newsgroup that has a random >Spectrum error message tagged to the end of each of his emails. Whenever >there's the faintest hint of a Speccy error that could fit the topic of >conversation it'll come up! Probably not IA but simple pattern matching - Eliza anyone? >[BeOS] >Are you using the freebie version, or has the full price edition come out >yet? I'm working with the commercial edition of BeOS 4.5.2 but I also have the personal edition of BeOS 5 and told my sister today that she should order the upgrade to BeOS 5 Pro since it's cheaper in the US than in Germany and I also would have to wait one or two more months to get it here. In the US it's shipping in the next week. >Being limited to half a gig of harddrive can't be nice. You haven't tried it yet or read some hints on BeNews or BeTips, have you? BeOS 5 PE comes with two tools which are also part of the commercial edition. DriveSetup lets you create and initialize a BFS partition (without any size limitations) and Installer lets you copy a whole BeOS installation from one partition to another, or in that special case from the partition file to the newly created partition. Absolutely no limitation there! >The same thing happens in Windows if you've got VC++ installed. The only >difference being, I assume, that BeOS catches more errors. Still, I bet it's >got holes somewhere. Has it ever crashed properly on you? I haven't had a real system crash yet, but I had to reset my machine twice. In one case the Tracker (similar to the Explorer) crashed and you cannot do much then. Of course you could simply restart the Tracker from a terminal but I didn't have one open. Now I have the tool BackOnTrack, which automatically recognizes when either Tracker or Deskbar don't run anymore and lets you restart these. The other case was when I was unable to terminate an application which was using the *experimental* hardware acceleration for OpenGL. So much for "system crashes" on BeOS ;-) I have application crashes from time to time (eg. the browser NetPositive if too many windows are open or with too many downloads at the same time) but you can restart the application after the crash without any problems. >I was busy with work, was only subscribed to the mailing list from home, and >was coding away happily when I was at home. This week I've been pretty bored >and not in a programming mood at all, so I decided to inflict myself on the >rest of you. Hard luck! ;) We have to bear that I guess ;-) >Andrew -- M.I.Ke No part of this message may reproduce, store itself in a retrieval system, or transmit disease, in any form, without the permissiveness of the author. -- Chris Shaw --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 16 04:36:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA28177 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <0003655f56949764_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:37:59 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com To reduce traffic on the mailing list I put a first outline of the DRFAQ online at: http://www.linguistik.uni-erlangen.de/~mlkoenig/drfaq.html Only the first "question" is answered so far, the rest is just brainstorming. Comments are very welcome! -- M.I.Ke "If I am elected, the concrete barriers around the WHITE HOUSE will be replaced by tasteful foam replicas of ANN MARGARET!" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 16 23:53:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33468 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:48:30 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I know there's a hoover that is intelligent, but not much else. I only know > >what... well, what I haven't seen. I've never watched it! > > I hadn't assumed that *anything* in that show is intelligent at all! ;-) The Sun is, apparently. Always laughing at how stupid the Tellytubbies actually are. Apparently. Although I wouldn't know... because I've never seen it. :) > >Damn, you've missed out! Rhubarb and Custard? No? Oh no! ;) > > Well, do you know Pumukel or Jim Knopf? I know Jim Knopf. Ha! Do you know "Fireman Sam", eh? Or "Pobl y cwm" eh? ;)) > >General Protection Fault. You've used Windows? Blue Screen Of Death? Usually > >one of those... > > Why do you all have to use these TLAs? ;-) BTF. :)) > Hey, you're pretty good at typing without your brain ;-) I've had plenty of practice. :) > >I'll let you know tomorrow. > > OK. Whatever it was, I didn't let you know. I haven't e-mailed anyone from home for about 6 days now - which is really bad because I've got at least 100 messages I need to reply to. Arse! > >BTW, Mike, any places you can recommend visiting in Bavaria? I fancy going > >somewhere on Sunday because it should be nice - but I have no idea where > >might be nice. :) > > Good question, I'm not really the traveller type... > The Americans always seem to visit King Ludwig's castles (Neuschwanstein, > Hohenschwangau), but I'm not sure if that's of interest for you. I wouldn't mind Neuschwanstein, but I was really looking for somewhere with lots of nice girls. I found the place. :) > Bamberg is a very nice city, especially with very good beer ;-) Really? Damn, maybe that would have been preferable... but no. :)) > >Nuernburg is a possibility - but I'm not sure how much there will be to do > >on a Sunday... > > Well, most interesting locations will be closed, I'm afraid. > Hey, you could even visit me ;-) I actually could have done, but instead we headed around Munich (on both days) and did some birdwatching. The warm weather really does bring them out, you know. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 16 23:54:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33477 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:54:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FAB42B.4351E6D@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:50:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec terms votation References: <200004120958.LAA23883@pons.ac.upc.es> <38F465B2.31B83D8C@eurocopter.de> <00036511f973f09d_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F499BD.49A63B39@eurocopter.de> <00036512a7bc52f5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38F56A94.98D46A22@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >That's just a quick idea I've come up with. Probably isn't the best in the > >world - but I did come up with it in just under 5 seconds. :) > > What if the opcode and it's parameters cross the 4KB block split? Look > ahead a fixed number of bytes based on the maximum opcode size for a > particular processor? I did say that it was something that I came up with in 5 seconds. :) Anyway, I'd differ the length of the block by looking for the first available conditional jump - and split it like that. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 00:32:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA33563 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:32:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FABC6D.265A33B8@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:25:33 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <002501bfa6d4$eb41d160$163d883e@ben> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Ha! Don't believe him! He sends me regular urgent flagged emails to warn me > when it's coming on! Quick! It's being repeated on BBC2 right no... Ah. :) > > Damn, you've missed out! Rhubarb and Custard? No? Oh no! ;) > > Oh, that was amazing! The music's great. Despite my best efforts, however, > it doesn't translate to email very well... wooooooooaaaah da da > woooooooaaaah da da wooah da da da da... See? > > Mind, Rhubarb and Custard is one of the newer ones... It's not got so much > nostalgia value. It has for me I'm afraid. How about Jackanory? Thundercats? Knightmare? Although these are getting slightly more modern... Hmm, you like "Blue Peter" you do. ;) > I'm pretty sure he must be a Linux type. Maybe BeOS. Either that or he's > like me and just hits the reset button in a huff every time his computer > BSODs, without reading the chirpy little messages. Partially debugged self > writing emulator cores just don't seem to get on very well with Windows... The cool thing about my computer is that it crashes for everyone else - but not for me. It's favouritism - but it's favouritism that I can handle. :) I find that writing programs which turn the interrupts off and then promptly crash don't get on too well with Windows either... :)) I'm thinking of writing a BSOD emulator - but I'll add some poetry in there. You can leave it loaded and it will give you a BSOD seemingly at random - just like the real thing. But I'll add some poetry in there - and see how many people notice. :)) To error 0E or not to error 0E, that is the question. Romeo, Romeo, wherefor art thou Error 0D, Romeo? Alas poor Yorick, I knew his invalid VxD error well. :)) I could go on, but I'd get bored. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 01:41:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA33789 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003d01bfa848$3b2ed5a0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> <0003654c23660aca_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen <00036556a136e1f9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:37:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >It's not the dynarec code that you have to worry about. It's the machine > >code it generates... > > It's both. > On one hand I thought I had to go blind when I saw MIPS dynarecs generating > the following code for each simple instruction: > > mov eax, simRs1 > operation eax, simRs2 > mov simRd, eax It's actually pretty suprising how many dynarec cores seem to do this. I'm pretty sure Nemu (the N64 emulator) still does things this way, which might well explain the crap performance I get with it. > On the other hand many dynarecs generate the code the following way: > > GenCodePointer += 0x12345678; /* emitt instruction whatsoever */ > > This is of course very easy to read and very easy to extend or debug... You've totally lost me with that one... how's that supposed to work, then? > >> Hey, you could even have an interpreter for the initialization code of the > >> ROM which is only executed once, but why should you implement three > >>methods to get one thing running? > >Because it's faster. The whole point of using a compiled CPU core is because > >an interpreted core is too slow. If you spend your whole time making your > >code readable, size efficient, and beautifully designed you'll end up with a > >beautiful, small, easily modified total waste of disk space. Speed speed > >speed! If ANSI goes out the window, who cares? > > But if you have such weird, large scale self-modifying code then it would be > easier just to implement a very optimised interpretive core, as it won't be > worth the hassle to do a dynarec. Not for a Z80, maybe, but what about the 32/64 bit end of the market? Have you tried AGES or Vegas yet? They're both emulating the 32X, which requires 2 SH2s, and a 68000. They both run at roughly one frame every second and a half on my machine. They both use interpreted cores. It's the same with the N64 emulators. Even though Nemu64 doesn't use register caching, it still performs loads better than any interpreted core could. When you need speed that badly, you either have to put the extra effort in, or wait four or five years for computers to become powerful enough to emulate the machine with an interpreted core. > >There's a bloke on the comp.sys.sinclair newsgroup that has a random > >Spectrum error message tagged to the end of each of his emails. Whenever > >there's the faintest hint of a Speccy error that could fit the topic of > >conversation it'll come up! > > Probably not IA but simple pattern matching - Eliza anyone? I'm beginning to suspect it might well be highly complicated pattern matching... I reckon he's cheating! :) > >[BeOS] > >Are you using the freebie version, or has the full price edition come out > >yet? > > I'm working with the commercial edition of BeOS 4.5.2 but I also have the > personal edition of BeOS 5 and told my sister today that she should order the > upgrade to BeOS 5 Pro since it's cheaper in the US than in Germany and I also > would have to wait one or two more months to get it here. In the US it's > shipping in the next week. So why BeOS, then? I've been thinking about giving the personal edition a quick go, just to see what all the fuss is about, but I haven't got the harddisk space at the moment. > >Being limited to half a gig of harddrive can't be nice. > > You haven't tried it yet or read some hints on BeNews or BeTips, have you? > BeOS 5 PE comes with two tools which are also part of the commercial edition. > DriveSetup lets you create and initialize a BFS partition (without any size > limitations) and Installer lets you copy a whole BeOS installation from one > partition to another, or in that special case from the partition file to the > newly created partition. > Absolutely no limitation there! And this isn't a sneaky work-around? I was under the impression that you weren't supposed to use the personal edition seriously, just as a taster of things to come. If you can have any size hard drive, what are the limitations on the PE? > >The same thing happens in Windows if you've got VC++ installed. The only > >difference being, I assume, that BeOS catches more errors. Still, I bet it's > >got holes somewhere. Has it ever crashed properly on you? > > I haven't had a real system crash yet, but I had to reset my machine twice. > In one case the Tracker (similar to the Explorer) crashed and you cannot do > much then. Of course you could simply restart the Tracker from a terminal but > I didn't have one open. Now I have the tool BackOnTrack, which automatically > recognizes when either Tracker or Deskbar don't run anymore and lets you > restart these. > The other case was when I was unable to terminate an application which was > using the *experimental* hardware acceleration for OpenGL. > So much for "system crashes" on BeOS ;-) > I have application crashes from time to time (eg. the browser NetPositive if > too many windows are open or with too many downloads at the same time) but > you can restart the application after the crash without any problems. How long can you leave it running before memory leakage slows things to a crawl? Days? Weeks? Months? Is it any good at spotting poorly written programs and clearing up the mess they leave after they've exited? > >I was busy with work, was only subscribed to the mailing list from home, and > >was coding away happily when I was at home. This week I've been pretty bored > >and not in a programming mood at all, so I decided to inflict myself on the > >rest of you. Hard luck! ;) > > We have to bear that I guess ;-) You certainly do. There's no escape now. I know where you live! Or at least where your email does... > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 01:56:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA33850 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004501bfa84a$6a402c20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:53:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > I don't see why compilation speed would be an issue at all. Even > > > recompling a 128K object only takes a fraction of a second, and during > > > emulation you wouldn't notice it anyway. > > Yeah, but recompiling it a few hundred times a second takes a few hundred > > fractions of a second. > > It depends. If your target code has no self modifying code then I fail to > see why this would make any difference. Of course, which is why I'm suggesting that you use it as part of a hybrid engine. Your first pass compile is done in the normal, run of the mill, easy to optimise way, whilst any recompiles are done using the "copy a precompiled block" method. The entire point of precompiling is to optimise compile speed, not execution speed, so it should only be used where compile speed is important. > > a block. Just for any recompilation that may be needed in the event of > > self-modifying code, in which case you'd need as much compilation speed as > > possible. > > But you shouldn't focus on that or even be concerned about it. It seldom > happens. And in the case where it does quite frequently, an emulated CPU > core would be a better approach because a well written emulated CPU is > going to be faster than any recompiler. Not necessarily. In certain, heavy duty, circumstances an interpreted core can't be beaten. However, most self-modifying code only changes a few hundred times a second at worst. If you execute every self-modifying even five or six times per modification you'll end up making a saving, which would be negated by a long compile time. Also, as I've said to Mike, what do you do when an interpreted core just won't cut the mustard? Some machines require the speed benefits of a compiled core, and even using an interpreter to handle just the self-modified blocks could lead to a major loss of speed if the block contains a loop. The whole point about binary translators is that you can't write an ideal, generic, core. You've got to make assumptions about the behaviour of the code that you intend to run on them, the trick being to make sure that your assumptions cover as many of the possibilities as they can. I've got no solution to the problem of emulating a MIPS R10000 that's expected to run code that spends most of its time in a tight, self-modifying, loop. You just can't do it with any kind of speed. Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 02:35:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA34101 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:35:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004b01bfa84f$d6a53fe0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:32:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > It depends entirely upon the device you're talking to. That's like saying > > > "What's the seek time over SCSI vs. IDE?" The seek time is bound to the > > > drive - not to the interface itself. > > Surely there's an industry standard way of talking to a keyboard or synth or > > whatever it is you've got your MIDI plugged into. > > There is for actual notes and volume control changes, but everything else > is up to the manufacturer. All the expressiveness of filter cutoff, when > LFOs are triggered, etc... is completely different on every synth. That's > because the structure of each synth is entirely different from the next. > Standardizing such a thing would be severely limiting what the > manufacturer could (or could not) do with the structure of the synth. So do you just have to use specialist software to control the thing? Erk... > > Otherwise all the keyboard > > manufacturers would be running around expecting their own format to be used > > and requiring that you have custom software for each different keyboard you > > buy. They can't be that stupid, can they? > > This is the way it is! Unless you want to use general MIDI, which varies > in style/sound from synth to synth, but even then that only gives you > patches and notes on certain channels (and thusly sucks). So has anyone tried to write a generic MIDI driver? Sort of like DirectMIDI... :) The synth manufacturers would just have to provide a driver for their machines... In fact, the drivers could probably be done with some sort of VM bytecodes, rather than actual hard code, which would mean you could use them on any hardware. Cor. That's an interesting thought. One JIT compiler later and... DynaMID! > > I owned a really crap MIDI years ago, which I bought to plug my Amiga into a > > cheap and nasty Yamaha keyboard. I remember them working fine with MED and > > SoundTracker, and I didn't need to inform the Amiga of the make and > > manufacturer of the thing. > > If all you're doing is just basic notes it'll work with any synth. I > really doubt you were changing resonance frequencies or anything complex. > Cheap and nasty Yamaha keyboards don't have thea bility tochange this > stuff anyway. Yes, I think I was doing general MIDI stuff. The keyboard could only map four instruments at a time, and it couldn't do anything clever like pitch or volume slides. > > > I think it only had one. At least the 1040. I never knew of a model that > > > had more than one. Doesn't mean that it didn't exist, though. ;-) > > What's the price range from a single bus MIDI to one of those eight bus > > things like you've got? Given that it's such a simple device you'd think > > they'd be pretty cheap regardless of the number of buses, but I bet they > > charge a fortune. > > For a PC, I think single MIDI ports are around $49. The MIDI Timepiece AV > is $395, but also consider it does more than just MIDI. It also speaks > house timecode, video synchronization, MIDI time code, and ADAT machine > control and is able to translate between them all. It also has a lot of > funky routing and filtering capabilities that a regular single port MIDI > interface wouldn't have. Fair enough. $49 for a single MIDI port, though? That seems a bit excessive. I'm sure I only paid £25 for mine, and that was seven or eight years ago. Mind, it was probably pretty poor quality. It broke after about six months and would only communicate one way (keyboard -> computer, I think). Still, you gets what you pays for, eh? > > > They aren't even comparable formats. MP3 and WAV files are just recorded > > > audio. MIDI Is *NOT* recorded audio - it's like having the sheet music to > > > a song. You still have to have something interpret the sheet music and > > > turn it in to actual sound. > > Indeed, but what I'm asking is: How often can you make changes to the note > > that's currently playing. I think that's a better way of describing it. In > > all the old Amiga Tracker programs you could do volume slides and frequency > > changes and stuff, but you couldn't do all that many a second. What's the > > maximum data frequency over a MIDI bus, and do you need top of the range > > hardware at the other end to be able to respond to it (thus is there a > > recommended cap, or just a hardware limited maximum). > > Even cheap hardware (486s and the like) can deal with it pretty fast. It's > a 31.5kbps stream, which is about 320 microseconds per byte. Each MIDI > message is 2 or 3 bytes long on average, so you're looking at almost a > millisecond maximum for note on/note off transitions. But in practice each > synthesizer responds in more like 3-6 milliseconds after the note has been > received. So there's usually a lag. So is the lag standardised, or do you have to take it into account when writing a MIDI piece? I suppose that'd be quite good, really. Musical people I talked to when I was doing my AI degree told me that they didn't think a computer could ever play sheet music properly, because it played it too perfectly. A synth imposing some lag might begin to make things a little bit more 'human', although I'm not sure if a six millisecond delay constitutes a musical style! ;) > But there's no difference in one MIDI interface over the next. It's just > like a serial port - like a regular serial port that's slower than the one > on the back of any PC. Fair enough. I take it there's pretty much no way of saturating it with data? Still, even if there was, I bet someone's already come up with a USB MIDI... > > > Not really. You've got note on/note off messages, plus volume control > > > changes and potentially patch changes too. Consider that a 3 note chord is > > > 3 note on messages - 6 bytes each. So even short compositions can be > > > fairly sizable. > > So how do you set which note to play? Do send a note on message with a > > specific note frequency, or is it more limited than that? Do you send a note > > on message with a 'Play C#' message? > > Yes, exactly. There's an 8 octave range, and you just send it a number. C0 > Is 32, C#0 is 33, D0 is 34, etc... and so on. In your note on message, you > also send it a velocity from 0 to 127. That note will stay on until you > send it a note off command. Velocity? Is that volume? > > And most notes are... One beat? Half a beat? So that's roughly 6 > > notes a second (I'll take an average until you fill me in on the details) > > plus potentially chords and stuff, which is probably around eight bytes a > > second of data on average? Is that right? That would lead to a 30k song > > being a bit over an hour... possibly a tad low. :) > > What you're trying to do here is take something that's extremely broad and > making it narrow and general. Music just doesn't work that way. Basically, > the faster the notes come in the music the larger the file is going to be, > since each note on/note off is recorded. Indeed, but I was under the impression that there was a common (modal average) time scale... err... thingy. Erm... I'm getting into complicated technical words now, so don't worry if you're having trouble keeping up! ;) > > > Nope. What you're seeing in the 30k version is probably a bunch of minute > > > controller changes like volume or perhaps panning, and that'll increase > > > the size of the file. > > Aha! This is what I'm after. How minute can these changes be? > > The fastest you can make them go is about 640 milliseconds (two bytes for > controller messages) per control change. And would this produce sensible music, or would you end up with a glut of high speed noise? > > > The thing about MIDI is you can compose on one set of synthesizers and it > > > won't translate to another set, especailly if you start putting in > > > controller changes. > > I was thinking about computer MIDIs, though, which allow you to upload > > sample data to the soundcard as MIDI instruments. > > I have no idea what you mean, here. If you're talking about feeding a MIDI > file to the sound card (Which is a general MIDI device interanlly), the > card does all the sound generation. MIDI Does not transport actual audio > data. Unless you're talking about SMIDI which is only available for > samplers (and is today an abandoned standard) and it's dog slow. I don't think I'm on about any of these. What I'm talking about involves uploading WAVs of instruments playing middle C (I assume) to the soundcards memory. You then map your MIDI instruments to these WAVs, and the soundcard treats them as extended general MIDI instruments, sort of thing. That way you can write music that'll sound the same regardless of the instrument set on the soundcard that's playing it. I doubt it's a part of the whole general MIDI thing, because it'd be useless for anything other than computer playback. > -->Neil Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 04:50:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA34431 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 04:50:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <003d01bfa848$3b2ed5a0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <000365738f825405_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> <0003654c23660aca_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen <00036556a136e1f9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <003d01bfa848$3b2ed5a0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:45:33 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It's actually pretty suprising how many dynarec cores seem to do this. I'm >pretty sure Nemu (the N64 emulator) still does things this way, which might >well explain the crap performance I get with it. Yeah, it's the "no register allocation" approach and I've seen it in both Pex and FPSE. I don't have the sources of Nemu64 or PSEmuPro, but it wouldn't be a big surprise if they did the same. Although I wasn't a great fan of NB's static register allocation in the beginning I have to admit that it surely is much better than that crap... >> GenCodePointer += 0x12345678; /* emitt instruction whatsoever */ >> This is of course very easy to read and very easy to extend or debug... >You've totally lost me with that one... how's that supposed to work, then? Depending how orthogonal the traget instruction set is you should either use functions or macros for most RISC targets. Eg. a RISC addition instruction ADD R1, R2, R3 could be generated by emittADD(1, 2, 3); /* this could be a macro */ or *CodePointer += ADD | Rd(1) | Rs(2) | Rs(3); /* lots of small macros */ Both versions are much more readable than just using the binary representation and naming the instruction in a comment! >Not for a Z80, maybe, but what about the 32/64 bit end of the market? Have >you tried AGES or Vegas yet? They're both emulating the 32X, which requires >2 SH2s, and a 68000. They both run at roughly one frame every second and a >half on my machine. They both use interpreted cores. It's the same with the >N64 emulators. Even though Nemu64 doesn't use register caching, it still >performs loads better than any interpreted core could. When you need speed >that badly, you either have to put the extra effort in, or wait four or five >years for computers to become powerful enough to emulate the machine with an >interpreted core. I don't know the 32X, but I guess it doesn't have that much self-modifying code, so a DynaRec would be perfectly fine. >So why BeOS, then? I've been thinking about giving the personal edition a >quick go, just to see what all the fuss is about, but I haven't got the >harddisk space at the moment. It boots up and shuts down *much* faster than Windows or Linux. It's very nice to use, relatively stable (had my first complete hang yesterday :-(), it's fast and very responsive. Although disk operations are very fast you still have a great response in BeOS. The only thing where you get a slight delay is when accessing a floppy disk, but even then it is responsive unlike Windows. >And this isn't a sneaky work-around? Nope these are absolutely the same tools as in the Pro edition. You could even burn the image file onto a CD-ROM start it with the boot disk (because the CD won't be bootable) and make an installation from CD without having to start BeOS under Windows. BTW, the bootloader on the disk finds the image file on FAT/FAT32, ext2, and NTFS partitions as long as it's in a special directory - so much for excellent foreign FS support ;-) >I was under the impression that you >weren't supposed to use the personal edition seriously, just as a taster of >things to come. I guess they hope that some will by the Pro edition because they liked PE, but if should have anything in PE you want there is really no need. >If you can have any size hard drive, what are the >limitations on the PE? Some things that require licenses are missing: MP3 and Intel codecs, the RealPlayer You have the download the compiler in a separate archive, there are not much demos and no extensions (source code for some apps, experimental stuff) in the PE. And you don't get support for BeOS 5 PE, which is just fair when it's for free. But that leads to stupid questions on newsgroups: "What is the Tracker?", "Does BeOS run DOS apps?", "Where is the CLI? What, it's named Terminal?",... The worst are those guys who took a look of two minutes at it and think "How do I use it? No idea! And I don't have any apps for it anyway!" and then post "BeOS sucks" - I could kill these guys! It would be just as if I came from BeOS to Windows and say: "Hey, BeOS would have booted three times by now, Windows must have crashed. Let's turn the machine off and trash the partition." BTW, someone really ask if it is a bad joke that BeOS can be booted in 20 seconds because for him it needs as long as Windows when he is using the boot disk!!! >How long can you leave it running before memory leakage slows things to a >crawl? Days? Weeks? Months? I normally don't let my computer running over night, and IMO BeOS isn't really a server OS, although I was told that Siemens use it for some servers. But sometimes I let it run the whole day just to read email from time to time. Unlike Windows BeOS never was unstable due to this. BTW, some people where quite upset why BeOS was working on the harddrive when they weren't doing anything. The solution is that the Registrar searches for files which don't have a filetype yet when the system is idle. >Is it any good at spotting poorly written >programs and clearing up the mess they leave after they've exited? I haven't really programmed on it yet, so I don't have much experience with poorly written code yet ;-) As far as I can tell BeOS does a great job to remove the remains of a crashed application, since I always was able to restart that app without any problems. Sometimes NetPositive (the browser) eats up much processor time, mainly due to some weird pages and I normally have between 10 and 20 pages open (Netscape often crashes when I have more than 5 pages open), but when I close NetPositive and restart it, everything is perfectly fine again. >You certainly do. There's no escape now. I know where you live! Or at least >where your email does... Mind you, I know your email address as well! ;-) >Andrew -- M.I.Ke Due to lack of disk space, this fortune database has been discontinued. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 04:50:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA34443 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 04:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:59:18 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The Sun is, apparently. Always laughing at how stupid the Tellytubbies >actually are. Apparently. Although I wouldn't know... because I've never >seen it. :) I thought about the sun but I think it isn't intelligent either... >I know Jim Knopf. Ha! Really? ;-) >Do you know "Fireman Sam", eh? Or "Pobl y cwm" eh? ;)) Nope. BTW, how is the latter pronounced? >> Why do you all have to use these TLAs? ;-) >BTF. :)) Here is a four letter German acronym: LMAA! >> Hey, you're pretty good at typing without your brain ;-) >I've had plenty of practice. :) When being at work? ;-) >Whatever it was, I didn't let you know. I noticed. No-one seemed to be interested in the FAQ, not even Andy, who asked for it :-( >I haven't e-mailed anyone from home >for about 6 days now - which is really bad because I've got at least 100 >messages I need to reply to. Arse! Yeah, sometimes it's hard to keep up. >I wouldn't mind Neuschwanstein, but I was really looking for somewhere with >lots of nice girls. I found the place. :) Where? ;-) >> Bamberg is a very nice city, especially with very good beer ;-) >Really? Damn, maybe that would have been preferable... but no. :)) Damn birdwatchers! >I actually could have done, but instead we headed around Munich (on both >days) and did some birdwatching. The warm weather really does bring them >out, you know. :) Any interesting birds with - erm - big wings? ;-) -- M.I.Ke Every successful person has had failures but repeated failure is no guarantee of eventual success. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 04:50:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA34448 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 04:50:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <004501bfa84a$6a402c20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <000365739feea120_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <004501bfa84a$6a402c20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:50:08 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The whole point about binary translators is that you can't write an ideal, >generic, core. You've got to make assumptions about the behaviour of the >code that you intend to run on them, the trick being to make sure that your >assumptions cover as many of the possibilities as they can. Seems to be right. Until we write a dynarec for Itanium and can cache every single simulated register ;-) >I've got no >solution to the problem of emulating a MIPS R10000 that's expected to run >code that spends most of its time in a tight, self-modifying, loop. You just >can't do it with any kind of speed. Erm, MIPS CPUs (at least the newer ones) are Harvard architectures and cache handling on MIPS is somewhat awkward. These both facts mean that hardly ever you will find self-modifying code on a R10000, at least that's what I think. >Andrew -- M.I.Ke What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind. -- Thomas Hewitt Key, 1799-1875 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 05:26:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA34634 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bf <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:22:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Whatever it was, I didn't let you know. > > I noticed. No-one seemed to be interested in the FAQ, not even Andy, who > asked for it :-( Eeek! Sorry! :( I've had a look, though. I just haven't written anything about it. My first impression is that it's going to be BIG. Blimey. You've got a couple of pages of nothing but headings! Rather you than me, old chap! I also note that "Some people even distinguish between dynamic compilation and recompilation, where the latter handles self-modifying code and the former does not. But *most* people use these terms synonymously and don't imply if self-modifying code is handled or not." Hmph! I'm sending Neil G over to have words with you. Most, indeed! ;þ Other than that, it's looking pretty good, though. :) I very much like the "How does Dynamic Recompilation work in principle?" section. It's much clearer than my "Malloc a block of memory, chuck a few bytes at it, then call it with assembler" method. However, doesn't it put unnecessary load on the system, having to deal with C calling conventions every time it enters a block? (This also makes it harder to do block to block linking optimisations). Still, that's being picky, because it's just intended as an overview of the process, isn't it? So when's the next update? > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 05:49:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA34758 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:49:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <017201bfa86a$f74112e0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> <0003654c23660aca_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen<00036556a136e1f9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <003d01bfa848$3b2ed5a0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365738f825405_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:46:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >It's actually pretty suprising how many dynarec cores seem to do this. I'm > >pretty sure Nemu (the N64 emulator) still does things this way, which might > >well explain the crap performance I get with it. > > Yeah, it's the "no register allocation" approach and I've seen it in both Pex > and FPSE. I don't have the sources of Nemu64 or PSEmuPro, but it wouldn't be > a big surprise if they did the same. > Although I wasn't a great fan of NB's static register allocation in the > beginning I have to admit that it surely is much better than that crap... Static register allocation as in "ax will hold the flags and the accumulator"? I'm still not sure if it's the best way to do the Z80, although it's what I used for SpectrEm-DR. That's because I was feeling too lazy to do proper register tracking and allocation, though. For a 6502 it'd work, but you're still left wondering what to do with IX and IY with a Z80. (And you'll end up doing "that crap", probably. It's just not as noticable because they don't get used all that much). > >> GenCodePointer += 0x12345678; /* emitt instruction whatsoever */ > >> This is of course very easy to read and very easy to extend or debug... > >You've totally lost me with that one... how's that supposed to work, then? > > Depending how orthogonal the traget instruction set is you should either use > functions or macros for most RISC targets. > Eg. a RISC addition instruction > ADD R1, R2, R3 > could be generated by > emittADD(1, 2, 3); /* this could be a macro */ > or > *CodePointer += ADD | Rd(1) | Rs(2) | Rs(3); /* lots of small macros > */ > > Both versions are much more readable than just using the binary > representation and naming the instruction in a comment! Right. So you missed out the * in the initial example? I still don't see how *CodePointer += whatever is going to work... that'll just add whatever to the contents of the memory location pointed to by codepointer. Do you mean *CodePointer = whatever; Codepointer+=sizeof(whatever); (to hideously misuse sizeof)? Or *CodePointer++= whatever, assuming whatever is of constant size and CodePointer knows it? Anyway, I used the macro/inline function approach in SpectrEm. It does make things an awful lot more readable and extendable, and doesn't impact perfomance at all, so why not? :) > >Not for a Z80, maybe, but what about the 32/64 bit end of the market? Have > >you tried AGES or Vegas yet? They're both emulating the 32X, which requires > >2 SH2s, and a 68000. They both run at roughly one frame every second and a > >half on my machine. They both use interpreted cores. It's the same with the > >N64 emulators. Even though Nemu64 doesn't use register caching, it still > >performs loads better than any interpreted core could. When you need speed > >that badly, you either have to put the extra effort in, or wait four or five > >years for computers to become powerful enough to emulate the machine with an > >interpreted core. > > I don't know the 32X, but I guess it doesn't have that much self-modifying > code, so a DynaRec would be perfectly fine. Probably. The occasional console game seems to use self-modifying code, but given how terrified most programmers were of Sega's SH2 using hardware, the odds are they just wrote everything in C and hoped for the best, thus no nasty stuff. > >So why BeOS, then? I've been thinking about giving the personal edition a > >quick go, just to see what all the fuss is about, but I haven't got the > >harddisk space at the moment. > > It boots up and shuts down *much* faster than Windows or Linux. It's very > nice to use, relatively stable (had my first complete hang yesterday :-(), > it's fast and very responsive. > Although disk operations are very fast you still have a great response in > BeOS. The only thing where you get a slight delay is when accessing a floppy > disk, but even then it is responsive unlike Windows. A hang! Congratulations! How did you manage it? Do you get a delay to the entire system when accessing a floppy (like in Windows) or just a delay to the access time. I've never understood why PCs don't seem to be able to read from their floppy drives whilst they're doing something else. Haven't they heard of DMA? > >And this isn't a sneaky work-around? > > Nope these are absolutely the same tools as in the Pro edition. > You could even burn the image file onto a CD-ROM start it with the boot disk > (because the CD won't be bootable) and make an installation from CD without > having to start BeOS under Windows. > BTW, the bootloader on the disk finds the image file on FAT/FAT32, ext2, and > NTFS partitions as long as it's in a special directory - so much for > excellent foreign FS support ;-) As long as it works... :) > >I was under the impression that you > >weren't supposed to use the personal edition seriously, just as a taster of > >things to come. > > I guess they hope that some will by the Pro edition because they liked PE, > but if should have anything in PE you want there is really no need. Can you boot without going through Windows or a boot disk in the Pro edition? That'd be a good reason to buy the thing. > >If you can have any size hard drive, what are the > >limitations on the PE? > > Some things that require licenses are missing: MP3 and Intel codecs, the > RealPlayer > You have the download the compiler in a separate archive, there are not much > demos and no extensions (source code for some apps, experimental stuff) in > the PE. > And you don't get support for BeOS 5 PE, which is just fair when it's for > free. But that leads to stupid questions on newsgroups: "What is the > Tracker?", "Does BeOS run DOS apps?", "Where is the CLI? What, it's named > Terminal?",... You've got to expect that, though. BeOS is trendy, so you're bound to get a bunch of clueless trendy wannabees who don't really need to be using the thing but have been brought up to believe Windows is evil. So from that point of view, it's all your own fault you're being bothered! And the fault of the Linux crowd, of course. You should have told people that BeOS was boring and for geeks. That way you only have to deal with computer literate techies... > The worst are those guys who took a look of two minutes at it and think "How > do I use it? No idea! And I don't have any apps for it anyway!" and then post > "BeOS sucks" - I could kill these guys! > It would be just as if I came from BeOS to Windows and say: "Hey, BeOS would > have booted three times by now, Windows must have crashed. Let's turn the > machine off and trash the partition." > BTW, someone really ask if it is a bad joke that BeOS can be booted in 20 > seconds because for him it needs as long as Windows when he is using the boot > disk!!! Heh! :) I quite like the GUI that I've seen in the screenshots floating around. It reminds me of some of the nicer window managers for the later Amiga Workbenches. Very pretty. > >How long can you leave it running before memory leakage slows things to a > >crawl? Days? Weeks? Months? > > I normally don't let my computer running over night, and IMO BeOS isn't > really a server OS, although I was told that Siemens use it for some servers. > But sometimes I let it run the whole day just to read email from time to > time. Unlike Windows BeOS never was unstable due to this. > BTW, some people where quite upset why BeOS was working on the harddrive when > they weren't doing anything. The solution is that the Registrar searches for > files which don't have a filetype yet when the system is idle. Yes, people get very funny about the OS doing stuff in the background. I've heard a few complaints about Win98 thrashing the hard drive when it's left idle, which is because it's trying to sort out the virtual memory at a convinient time for the user. People actually seem to prefer to have the thing turned off so that it's forced to sort it out when it's run out of memory and is in the middle of doing something else. Weirdos! ;) > >Is it any good at spotting poorly written > >programs and clearing up the mess they leave after they've exited? > > I haven't really programmed on it yet, so I don't have much experience with > poorly written code yet ;-) > As far as I can tell BeOS does a great job to remove the remains of a crashed > application, since I always was able to restart that app without any > problems. > Sometimes NetPositive (the browser) eats up much processor time, mainly due > to some weird pages and I normally have between 10 and 20 pages open > (Netscape often crashes when I have more than 5 pages open), but when I close > NetPositive and restart it, everything is perfectly fine again. 10-20 pages? That's pretty impressive. BeOS was specifically designed for something or other, originally, wasn't it? CAD? Multimedia stuff? Anyway, I'd not want to risk opening 20 pages simultaneously in IE... > >You certainly do. There's no escape now. I know where you live! Or at least > >where your email does... > > Mind you, I know your email address as well! ;-) But I've got two! How do you know you're going to hit the right one? :) > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 05:54:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA34793 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <017801bfa86b$8da79380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <004501bfa84a$6a402c20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365739feea120_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:50:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >The whole point about binary translators is that you can't write an ideal, > >generic, core. You've got to make assumptions about the behaviour of the > >code that you intend to run on them, the trick being to make sure that your > >assumptions cover as many of the possibilities as they can. > > Seems to be right. Until we write a dynarec for Itanium and can cache every > single simulated register ;-) Oooh... I have wet dreams about that processor! (Although I'm not entirely sure you really wanted to know that...) Writing an emulator on it would be wonderful! > >I've got no > >solution to the problem of emulating a MIPS R10000 that's expected to run > >code that spends most of its time in a tight, self-modifying, loop. You just > >can't do it with any kind of speed. > > Erm, MIPS CPUs (at least the newer ones) are Harvard architectures and cache > handling on MIPS is somewhat awkward. These both facts mean that hardly ever > you will find self-modifying code on a R10000, at least that's what I think. Ahhh... hardly ever is not never, though, sort of thing. That's the point. And if you don't like that example, replace R10000 with 1ghz Athlon/P3. Or even Itanium! *shiver*. I'd like to see you try to do decent register caching for that! > -- > M.I.Ke Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 06:07:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA34864 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:07:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:04:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bf <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Hmph! I'm sending Neil G over to have words with you. Most, indeed! ;þ It's okay, I'll go over there with my "friends" and deal with him. ;) > Other than that, it's looking pretty good, though. :) I very much like the > "How does Dynamic Recompilation work in principle?" section. It's much > clearer than my "Malloc a block of memory, chuck a few bytes at it, then > call it with assembler" method. However, doesn't it put unnecessary load on > the system, having to deal with C calling conventions every time it enters a > block? (This also makes it harder to do block to block linking > optimisations). I think it's really good. No, I'm lying. I haven't even read it. Although it may be good. I just don't know. Because I haven't read it. Yet. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 06:14:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA34891 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FB0D80.5DEE52DB@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:11:29 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <004501bfa84a$6a402c20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365739feea120_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <017801bfa86b$8da79380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Oooh... I have wet dreams about that processor! (Although I'm not entirely > sure you really wanted to know that...) You'd be right. I didn't want to know that. Don't tell me you buy PlayCPU too, do you? ;)) > Writing an emulator on it would be wonderful! It would, but I still wouldn't dream about it. :) I was going to add something useful to this message, but I've forgotten it now. Oops. Besides, it's pretty funny as it is. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 06:16:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA34924 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <023901bfa86e$b60f7b00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:13:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > Hmph! I'm sending Neil G over to have words with you. Most, indeed! ;þ > > It's okay, I'll go over there with my "friends" and deal with him. ;) Good man! > > Other than that, it's looking pretty good, though. :) I very much like the > > "How does Dynamic Recompilation work in principle?" section. It's much > > clearer than my "Malloc a block of memory, chuck a few bytes at it, then > > call it with assembler" method. However, doesn't it put unnecessary load on > > the system, having to deal with C calling conventions every time it enters a > > block? (This also makes it harder to do block to block linking > > optimisations). > > I think it's really good. No, I'm lying. I haven't even read it. Although > it may be good. I just don't know. Because I haven't read it. Yet. :) You've got to stop all this socialising! What ever happened to staying in of an evening and surfing the net? I don't know. It's impossible to find an honest to goodness geek anywhere, these days! ;) > Neil. Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 06:35:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35099 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:35:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FB125C.A90659E3@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:32:12 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I know Jim Knopf. Ha! > > Really? ;-) Nah, probably not. ;)) > >Do you know "Fireman Sam", eh? Or "Pobl y cwm" eh? ;)) > > Nope. BTW, how is the latter pronounced? Pob-bull EE cum I've never actually watched it myself, but it means "People of Cwm" so I imagine that "Cwm" is a village. Of course, if the title is in fact "Pobl y cym" - which is possible - then it'd mean "People of Wales". So it's probably that then. :)) How about "Button Moon", eh? Yet another program produced for about 3 pounds. Although maybe it was slightly more expensive. 5 pounds, maybe. :) > >> Why do you all have to use these TLAs? ;-) > >BTF. :)) > > Here is a four letter German acronym: LMAA! But mine means "Because They're Funny"! ;) > >> Hey, you're pretty good at typing without your brain ;-) > >I've had plenty of practice. :) > > When being at work? ;-) Most likely, yes. :) > >Whatever it was, I didn't let you know. > > I noticed. No-one seemed to be interested in the FAQ, not even Andy, who > asked for it :-( I'm interested, I've just had no time. Had a guest at my house - and then we went bird-watching. :)) I'm sorry, but I have my priorities sorted: Women. Computers. Food should go in that list somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I can usually do the food part alongside either of the others, so it's a sort of symbiotic thing. :) > >I haven't e-mailed anyone from home > >for about 6 days now - which is really bad because I've got at least 100 > >messages I need to reply to. Arse! > > Yeah, sometimes it's hard to keep up. It is when... no, I have no excuse. I just couldn't be arsed. :) > >I wouldn't mind Neuschwanstein, but I was really looking for somewhere with > >lots of nice girls. I found the place. :) > > Where? ;-) Muenchen. Oh yes. Could have gone to the "Erotik Messe" this weekend as well - but it was like that in the parks. But free. :)) > >> Bamberg is a very nice city, especially with very good beer ;-) > >Really? Damn, maybe that would have been preferable... but no. :)) > > Damn birdwatchers! Hey, I don't use binoculars! > >I actually could have done, but instead we headed around Munich (on both > >days) and did some birdwatching. The warm weather really does bring them > >out, you know. :) > > Any interesting birds with - erm - big wings? ;-) A few, yes. And some with nice... tail feathers. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 06:39:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35138 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FB12D2.F2774307@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:34:10 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> <023901bfa86e$b60f7b00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > It's okay, I'll go over there with my "friends" and deal with him. ;) > > Good man! Right, you've given me his name, address, phone number, photo and social security number. I think I can find him... ;) > > I think it's really good. No, I'm lying. I haven't even read it. Although > > it may be good. I just don't know. Because I haven't read it. Yet. :) > > You've got to stop all this socialising! What ever happened to staying in of > an evening and surfing the net? I don't know. It's impossible to find an > honest to goodness geek anywhere, these days! ;) I'm a 50/50 geek. 50% women, 50% computers. The 50% computers happens during winter - and the other 50% happens when it's warmer. I can't imagine why. I'm sure it can't have anything to do with less clothes or anything... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 06:53:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35282 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:53:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <00036574ee4d4fb9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bf <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:23:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> I noticed. No-one seemed to be interested in the FAQ, not even Andy, who >> asked for it :-( >Eeek! Sorry! :( I've had a look, though. I just haven't written anything >about it. My first impression is that it's going to be BIG. You wanted everything and I still have new ideas! >Blimey. It's the second time that I read this word! The first time it was in a mail by David McEwen and he told me that word is typically British. >You've got a couple of pages of nothing but headings! Haven't come around to write more yet :-( >Rather you than me, old chap! Afraid of the size? ;-) >I also note that "Some people even distinguish between dynamic compilation >and recompilation, where the latter handles self-modifying code and the >former does not. But *most* people use these terms synonymously and don't >imply if self-modifying code is handled or not." >Hmph! I'm sending Neil G over to have words with you. Most, indeed! ;þ We already had that discussion ;-) I took a look at some of the dynarec docs I have and found the following statement in Ardi's whitepaper on Executor: "Like most dynamically compiling emulators, Syn68k doesn't detect self- modifying code" This means that other dynamic compilers could do that, and they don't call them dynamic recompilers! >Other than that, it's looking pretty good, though. :) Thanks. >I very much like the "How does Dynamic Recompilation work in principle?" section. It's not ready yet! >It's much >clearer than my "Malloc a block of memory, chuck a few bytes at it, then >call it with assembler" method. However, doesn't it put unnecessary load on >the system, having to deal with C calling conventions every time it enters a >block? (This also makes it harder to do block to block linking >optimisations). Maybe I'm too much into RISC processors again. In that case you'd have the address of the context structure passed in a register and you could access the whole context by a simple displacement operation. I will NB's method to reduce redundancy by generating some "glue code" (I call it "Master Block" and hope that NB agrees with that term) later. In that case a block consisting of the entry and exit code is called. This block has the pointer to the context hard-coded and does all the setup before it calls the actual basic block. But I though that the approach of directly calling the basic block which has prologue and epilogue code will be easier to understand in the beginning. >Still, that's being picky, because it's just intended as an overview of the >process, isn't it? Yeah, I certainly don't want to present a complete dynarec in the FAQ. I mean, even the longest emulator FAQ doesn't include a complete emulator. >So when's the next update? Maybe just writing along, or add ideas as they come. Currently I want to seach the docs I have for methods I might have forgotten. >Andrew -- M.I.Ke Everyone talks about apathy, but no one ____does anything about it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 06:53:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35291 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <017801bfa86b$8da79380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <00036575584ab78f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <004501bfa84a$6a402c20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365739feea120_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <017801bfa86b$8da79380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:53:17 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Oooh... I have wet dreams about that processor! (Although I'm not entirely >sure you really wanted to know that...) Shocking! >Writing an emulator on it would be wonderful! Yeah, but with a dynarec you'd have much work with instruction ordering since you have to fit 3 instructions in one bundle and also set the right template... >Ahhh... hardly ever is not never, though, sort of thing. That's the point. >And if you don't like that example, replace R10000 with 1ghz Athlon/P3. Athlon even has fewer registers than P3... But I think or problem was self-modifying code, which is a real problem for emulation in that case, because x86 processors have transparent caches, which means that everything is handled in hardware. Thus you have no possiblity to detect self-modifying code because of any cache synchronization instructions used, and the programmer also will have less fear to use self-modifying code as they don't really know what's going on when they do so. >Or even Itanium! *shiver*. >I'd like to see you try to do decent register caching for that! Certainly not! This surely is Nightmare on Emu Street!!! >Andrew -- M.I.Ke Of what you see in books, believe 75%. Of newspapers, believe 50%. And of TV news, believe 25% -- make that 5% if the anchorman wears a blazer. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 06:53:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA35298 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <017201bfa86a$f74112e0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <000365754380f527_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001601bfa64c$196f19a0$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e619f2b0f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002101bfa6d4$e1879560$163d883e@ben> <0003654c23660aca_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen<00036556a136e1f9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <003d01bfa848$3b2ed5a0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365738f825405_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <017201bfa86a$f74112e0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:47:28 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Static register allocation as in "ax will hold the flags and the >accumulator"? I'm still not sure if it's the best way to do the Z80, >although it's what I used for SpectrEm-DR. That's because I was feeling too >lazy to do proper register tracking and allocation, though. For a 6502 it'd >work, but you're still left wondering what to do with IX and IY with a Z80. >(And you'll end up doing "that crap", probably. It's just not as noticable >because they don't get used all that much). NB's idea is to make the common case fast and use the general direct memory access for the remaining cases. Even with a 68K he'll cache the most frequently used registers in the hardware registers and have memory accesses for the others. From the RISC view this isn't ideal, but given the few registers in x86 architectures it's probably the best way to do it. >Right. So you missed out the * in the initial example? I still don't see how >*CodePointer += whatever is going to work... that'll just add whatever to >the contents of the memory location pointed to by codepointer. Do you mean >*CodePointer = whatever; Codepointer+=sizeof(whatever); (to hideously misuse >sizeof)? Or *CodePointer++= whatever, assuming whatever is of constant size >and CodePointer knows it? Ah, shit! Should be something like this: *CodePointer = instruction; CodePointer++; I guess I'm just too tired again... >Anyway, I used the macro/inline function approach in SpectrEm. It does make >things an awful lot more readable and extendable, and doesn't impact >perfomance at all, so why not? :) Indeed. But I've seen lots of stuff where they used the binary coding directly and only mentioned the instruction in the comment, if at all! >Probably. The occasional console game seems to use self-modifying code, but >given how terrified most programmers were of Sega's SH2 using hardware, the >odds are they just wrote everything in C and hoped for the best, thus no >nasty stuff. I bet so. A system with two SH2 must be a beast to program, and emulate, just take a look at Sega Saturn... >A hang! Congratulations! How did you manage it? Don't know exactly. NetPostitive crashed, I clicked to OK to kill it, the modem disconnected (which it normally doesn't do), and the machine hung. >Do you get a delay to the >entire system when accessing a floppy (like in Windows) or just a delay to >the access time. You get a very slight delay when first accessing the floppy (I only noticed it because I got used to the perfect response time of BeOS), but when you do disk transfers it works quite well, at least compared to Windows. Another good example is the difference between the BeOS and Win32 versions of Basilisk II. This emulator tests for a bootable Mac floppy at startup. The Win32 port makes noise for several seconds if you don't have a disk in the drive. With the BeOS version you hardly notice that it tests for a floppy! >I've never understood why PCs don't seem to be able to read >from their floppy drives whilst they're doing something else. Haven't they >heard of DMA? It seems that BeOS has ;-) >As long as it works... :) NTFS and ext2 are read-only at present, but BeOS is still the only OS which can read all my partitions. >Can you boot without going through Windows or a boot disk in the Pro >edition? That'd be a good reason to buy the thing. If you create a BFS partition with BeOS 5 PE you can add this to yur boot manager and boot it that way as well, I already did it and it really works! >You've got to expect that, though. BeOS is trendy, so you're bound to get a >bunch of clueless trendy wannabees who don't really need to be using the >thing but have been brought up to believe Windows is evil. So from that >point of view, it's all your own fault you're being bothered! And the fault >of the Linux crowd, of course. You should have told people that BeOS was >boring and for geeks. That way you only have to deal with computer literate >techies... Hehe... Well, the good thing might be that maybe some hardware firms realize that there is need for BeOS drivers as well. >Heh! :) I quite like the GUI that I've seen in the screenshots floating >around. It reminds me of some of the nicer window managers for the later >Amiga Workbenches. Very pretty. I liked the look of the GUI before I had BeOS, but now I'm so used to the functions of the GUI as well that I miss something on other OSs. Just take the window title bar. It only has two buttons for closing and full size, but if you double click the bar you hide the window under the application entry in the deskbar, and a right click on the bar pushes it in the back of your window stack. Believe me, I started right clicking on title bars in Windows and RISC OS to cycle through windows and was shocked that it doesn't work! >10-20 pages? That's pretty impressive. BeOS was specifically designed for >something or other, originally, wasn't it? CAD? Multimedia stuff? It was programmed with multi-media in mind. That's why it has a 64-bit FS and is so multi-threaded. It's a shame that I don't have a multiprocessor system since BeOS supports up to 8 CPUs currently. >Anyway, I'd not want to risk opening 20 pages simultaneously in IE... Neither would I, but I sometimes do that with NetPositive. Most guys mock about the browser because you have so few controls and settings, and it doesn't support JavaScript or Java, but I guess that's the reason why it's more stable than Netscape or IE and loads in 1 (in words one) second ;-) >But I've got two! How do you know you're going to hit the right one? :) I could just use both ;-) >Andrew -- M.I.Ke The study of non-linear physics is like the study of non-elephant biology. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 07:08:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35386 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:08:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036575736250ba_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bf <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:00:51 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Hmph! I'm sending Neil G over to have words with you. Most, indeed! ;þ >It's okay, I'll go over there with my "friends" and deal with him. ;) You and the other Spice Boys? ;-) >I think it's really good. No, I'm lying. I haven't even read it. Although >it may be good. I just don't know. Because I haven't read it. Yet. :) Shame on you! -- M.I.Ke "Thirty days hath Septober, April, June, and no wonder. all the rest have peanut butter except my father who wears red suspenders." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 07:08:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35401 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:08:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FB0D80.5DEE52DB@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036575781e6987_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <004501bfa84a$6a402c20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365739feea120_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <017801bfa86b$8da79380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB0D80.5DEE52DB@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:02:10 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Don't tell me you buy PlayCPU too, do you? ;)) Am I missing anything? ;-) >It would, but I still wouldn't dream about it. :) I guess you dream about that other 50%... >I was going to add something useful to this message, but I've forgotten it >now. Oops. Besides, it's pretty funny as it is. :) Funny? Where? ;-) -- M.I.Ke In a museum in Havana, there are two skulls of Christopher Columbus, "one when he was a boy and one when he was a man." -- Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 07:08:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35405 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:08:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FB125C.A90659E3@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000365758cc6ff37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB125C.A90659E3@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:07:57 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> >Do you know "Fireman Sam", eh? Or "Pobl y cwm" eh? ;)) >> Nope. BTW, how is the latter pronounced? >Pob-bull EE cum >I've never actually watched it myself, but it means "People of Cwm" so I >imagine that "Cwm" is a village. Of course, if the title is in fact "Pobl y >cym" - which is possible - then it'd mean "People of Wales". So it's >probably that then. :)) I already wanted to ask if that's a Welsh name... BTW, isn't Wales named Cymru in Welsh? >How about "Button Moon", eh? Yet another program produced for about 3 >pounds. Although maybe it was slightly more expensive. 5 pounds, maybe. :) Nope. >But mine means "Because They're Funny"! ;) I already guessed that... I hope you don't know what LMAA means! >I'm interested, I've just had no time. Had a guest at my house - and then >we went bird-watching. :)) Oh, collective bird-watching, probably even given marks. >I'm sorry, but I have my priorities sorted: Women. Computers. Food should >go in that list somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I can usually do the >food part alongside either of the others, so it's a sort of symbiotic >thing. :) Food is just a necessary nuisance, as is sleep... >It is when... no, I have no excuse. I just couldn't be arsed. :) Hey, Beavis he said "arsed"! - Yes, "arsed", hehehe. >Muenchen. Oh yes. Could have gone to the "Erotik Messe" this weekend as >well - but it was like that in the parks. But free. :)) Free as in beer? ;-) >Hey, I don't use binoculars! Oh no! >> Any interesting birds with - erm - big wings? ;-) >A few, yes. And some with nice... tail feathers. :)) This is something for the gay bird-watchers I guess... -- M.I.Ke If you had any brains, you'd be dangerous. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 07:08:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA35413 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FB12D2.F2774307@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036575919a6765_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> <023901bfa86e$b60f7b00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB12D2.F2774307@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:09:18 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Right, you've given me his name, address, phone number, photo and social >security number. I think I can find him... ;) No you don't have that information! Thank god that I didn't really invite you! ;-) >I'm a 50/50 geek. 50% women, 50% computers. The 50% computers happens >during winter - and the other 50% happens when it's warmer. I can't imagine >why. I'm sure it can't have anything to do with less clothes or anything... No it's because the birds are singing so nicely ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.Ke Workers of the world, arise! You have nothing to lose but your chairs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 08:55:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35914 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:55:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FB32DA.483578B6@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:50:50 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bf <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> <00036575736250ba_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >> Hmph! I'm sending Neil G over to have words with you. Most, indeed! ;þ > >It's okay, I'll go over there with my "friends" and deal with him. ;) > > You and the other Spice Boys? ;-) Yeah. I'm Thyme Spice and the others include Salt Spice and Pepper Spice. Be scared. ;)) > >I think it's really good. No, I'm lying. I haven't even read it. Although > >it may be good. I just don't know. Because I haven't read it. Yet. :) > > Shame on you! I'm...s...ssss...sssorry! No, seriously, I can't check anything except for one hour of Internet access. Except at home. Which is where I'll check it. But then I'll probably forget to mail you anyway. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 09:07:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA36062 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:07:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FB35C7.92AEACDD@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:03:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <004501bfa84a$6a402c20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365739feea120_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <017801bfa86b$8da79380$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB0D80.5DEE52DB@eurocopter.de> <00036575781e6987_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Don't tell me you buy PlayCPU too, do you? ;)) > > Am I missing anything? ;-) PlayCPU it appears. ;)) > >It would, but I still wouldn't dream about it. :) > > I guess you dream about that other 50%... Do I? I don't remember any of my dreams. Ugh, maybe I *do* dream of the Itanium! AAARGH! > >I was going to add something useful to this message, but I've forgotten it > >now. Oops. Besides, it's pretty funny as it is. :) > > Funny? Where? ;-) Down the road, first turning on the right. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 09:11:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA36101 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FB36F0.E89938B8@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:08:16 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB125C.A90659E3@eurocopter.de> <000365758cc6ff37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I've never actually watched it myself, but it means "People of Cwm" so I > >imagine that "Cwm" is a village. Of course, if the title is in fact "Pobl y > >cym" - which is possible - then it'd mean "People of Wales". So it's > >probably that then. :)) > > I already wanted to ask if that's a Welsh name... It is, yes. > BTW, isn't Wales named Cymru in Welsh? Very good! Yes, it is. And "Welsh" in Welsh is "Cymraeg". > >How about "Button Moon", eh? Yet another program produced for about 3 > >pounds. Although maybe it was slightly more expensive. 5 pounds, maybe. :) > > Nope. "Come fly to Button Moon with me and Mr. Spoon"? No? AARGH! Don't you get quality childrens programs in Germany? ;) > >But mine means "Because They're Funny"! ;) > > I already guessed that... I hope you don't know what LMAA means! If one A means Arsch, then I'm not sure I want to know! > >I'm interested, I've just had no time. Had a guest at my house - and then > >we went bird-watching. :)) > > Oh, collective bird-watching, probably even given marks. Maybe. Although I obviously wouldn't do that because that's very degrading and sexist... ...okay, maybe I did. :) > >I'm sorry, but I have my priorities sorted: Women. Computers. Food should > >go in that list somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I can usually do the > >food part alongside either of the others, so it's a sort of symbiotic > >thing. :) > > Food is just a necessary nuisance, as is sleep... Food + women (consenting) = fun! Food + computer (uh...) = mess all over keyboard (from the crumbs, from the crumbs - you're sick!) > >Muenchen. Oh yes. Could have gone to the "Erotik Messe" this weekend as > >well - but it was like that in the parks. But free. :)) > > Free as in beer? ;-) Beer is free when you steal it. Or nick it off someone. :) > >Hey, I don't use binoculars! > > Oh no! *POP* > >> Any interesting birds with - erm - big wings? ;-) > >A few, yes. And some with nice... tail feathers. :)) > > This is something for the gay bird-watchers I guess... I don't know what you're thinking, but I think it's something else. I'm talking bottoms here. Female bottoms. Just to clarify. Although... okay, maybe gays do go for bottoms. But... ooh, I don't want to go there. Or think about it either! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 09:13:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA36112 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FB373F.E7568AF6@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:09:35 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> <023901bfa86e$b60f7b00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB12D2.F2774307@eurocopter.de> <00036575919a6765_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Right, you've given me his name, address, phone number, photo and social > >security number. I think I can find him... ;) > > No you don't have that information! I do now. Didn't you know that Andy is in fact a Fed working for InterPol? ;) > Thank god that I didn't really invite you! ;-) You'd have been scared if I'd have brought Salt Spice and Pepper Spice, I'm sure. :) > >I'm a 50/50 geek. 50% women, 50% computers. The 50% computers happens > >during winter - and the other 50% happens when it's warmer. I can't imagine > >why. I'm sure it can't have anything to do with less clothes or anything... > > No it's because the birds are singing so nicely ;-) And their feathers are... well... groomed. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 09:53:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA36252 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FB36F0.E89938B8@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036577dee4cd37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB125C.A90659E3@eurocopter.de> <000365758cc6ff37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB36F0.E89938B8@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:54:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> BTW, isn't Wales named Cymru in Welsh? >Very good! Yes, it is. And "Welsh" in Welsh is "Cymraeg". I didn't know the latter one. Isn't Cymru pronounced more like [kamri]? >"Come fly to Button Moon with me and Mr. Spoon"? No? AARGH! Don't you get >quality childrens programs in Germany? ;) Since Matrix I know that there is no spoon! ;-) >> I already guessed that... I hope you don't know what LMAA means! >If one A means Arsch, then I'm not sure I want to know! How did you guess? ;-) >> Oh, collective bird-watching, probably even given marks. >Maybe. Although I obviously wouldn't do that because that's very degrading >and sexist... Isn't bird-watching sexist as well? >...okay, maybe I did. :) Here we go ;-) >Food + women (consenting) = fun! Haven't tried yet... >Food + computer (uh...) = mess all over keyboard (from the crumbs, from the >crumbs - you're sick!) Hey, you're sick as well if you think you can foretell my reaction! ;-) >*POP* Pardon? >I don't know what you're thinking, but I think it's something else. I'm >talking bottoms here. Female bottoms. Just to clarify. Ah, ok. >Although... okay, >maybe gays do go for bottoms. But... ooh, I don't want to go there. Or >think about it either! :o Me neither... >I do now. Didn't you know that Andy is in fact a Fed working for InterPol? I should know that I'm the boss of InterPol! >You'd have been scared if I'd have brought Salt Spice and Pepper Spice, I'm >sure. :) As long as Salt and Pepper would be female... ;-) >And their feathers are... well... groomed. :) It seems that I don't understand that joke even when I looked up "groom" in the dictionary... >Neil. -- M.I.Ke "The voters have spoken, the bastards ..." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 09:53:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA36256 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FB32DA.483578B6@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036577ab8b992f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bf <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> <00036575736250ba_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB32DA.483578B6@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:39:43 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yeah. I'm Thyme Spice and the others include Salt Spice and Pepper Spice. >Be scared. ;)) No I won't. I eat Sambal Oelek as a snack, so I will just swallow you ;-) >No, seriously, I can't check anything except for one hour of Internet >access. Except at home. Which is where I'll check it. But then I'll >probably forget to mail you anyway. :)) You need a brain upgrade ;-) >PlayCPU it appears. ;)) Anything I should know? ;-) >Do I? I don't remember any of my dreams. Ugh, maybe I *do* dream of the >Itanium! AAARGH! Hehe. So you don't remember your dreams either? >Down the road, first turning on the right. ;) Shit I went too far... >Neil. -- M.I.Ke Naeser's Law: You can make it foolproof, but you can't make it damnfoolproof. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 22:08:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA39057 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:08:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:08:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: OS Upgrade on its way Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Synthcom is scheduled to upgraded to FreeBSD 4.0 on the days of April 28th and 29th. It will go down sometime in the afternoon of the 28th and come back up sometime on the 29th. If worse comes to worst, I'll stick in the old drive and boot the old OS, so it'll be up and running on the 29th without question. Obviously, during that time Synthcom will be unreachable as well as its services. This includes dialin lines for those that use them. I expect the transition to the new OS to be smooth. Each upgrade to the next major revision number has been extremely simple and trouble free, and from what I've read from other early adopters this is certainly to be expected. I'll post another message in a week or so and an additional message the day before it goes down. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon Apr 17 23:58:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA39468 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:58:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FC066C.81EB07FE@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:53:32 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bf <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> <00036575736250ba_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB32DA.483578B6@eurocopter.de> <00036577ab8b992f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Yeah. I'm Thyme Spice and the others include Salt Spice and Pepper Spice. > >Be scared. ;)) > > No I won't. I eat Sambal Oelek as a snack, so I will just swallow you ;-) I could reply to that... but I won't. :) > >No, seriously, I can't check anything except for one hour of Internet > >access. Except at home. Which is where I'll check it. But then I'll > >probably forget to mail you anyway. :)) > > You need a brain upgrade ;-) No, the one I've got is quite fine. I just need to find the "On" switch. :)) > >PlayCPU it appears. ;)) > > Anything I should know? ;-) Ask Andrew! ;) > >Do I? I don't remember any of my dreams. Ugh, maybe I *do* dream of the > >Itanium! AAARGH! > > Hehe. So you don't remember your dreams either? It's very rare that I can actually. > >Down the road, first turning on the right. ;) > > Shit I went too far... Damn! > Naeser's Law: > You can make it foolproof, but you can't make it > damnfoolproof. Isn't this kind of fitting to do with Dynarec, eh? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 18 00:18:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39517 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:18:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FC066C.81EB07FE@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036583f4438b5a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.<0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bf <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <016a01bfa867$a2a84da0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <38FB0BBF.C9A08494@eurocopter.de> <00036575736250ba_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB32DA.483578B6@eurocopter.de> <00036577ab8b992f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FC066C.81EB07FE@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:19:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> No I won't. I eat Sambal Oelek as a snack, so I will just swallow you ;-) >I could reply to that... but I won't. :) Why not? Don't you know what Sambal Oelek is? >> You need a brain upgrade ;-) >No, the one I've got is quite fine. I just need to find the "On" switch. >:)) What? I have to activate it? Thanks for the hint! >> Hehe. So you don't remember your dreams either? >It's very rare that I can actually. Probably only nightmares which are so scary that one wakes up. >> Naeser's Law: >> You can make it foolproof, but you can't make it >> damnfoolproof. >Isn't this kind of fitting to do with Dynarec, eh? I guess it fits any piece of software. >Neil. -- M.I.Ke Peter's Law of Substitution: Look after the molehills, and the mountains will look after themselves. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 18 01:43:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA39773 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:43:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FC1F70.1CC0BCC5@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:40:16 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB125C.A90659E3@eurocopter.de> <000365758cc6ff37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB36F0.E89938B8@eurocopter.de> <00036577dee4cd37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >> BTW, isn't Wales named Cymru in Welsh? > >Very good! Yes, it is. And "Welsh" in Welsh is "Cymraeg". > > I didn't know the latter one. Isn't Cymru pronounced more like [kamri]? Almost. It's pronounced like [kum-rEE]. That's very good though for a non-Welsh person. It appears you know more than most English people too! :o > >"Come fly to Button Moon with me and Mr. Spoon"? No? AARGH! Don't you get > >quality childrens programs in Germany? ;) > > Since Matrix I know that there is no spoon! ;-) Yes, but that'd mean there are no computers, no emulation - and no Dynarec. Hmm... No Dynarec. Is that necessarily a bad thing? :o > >> I already guessed that... I hope you don't know what LMAA means! > >If one A means Arsch, then I'm not sure I want to know! > > How did you guess? ;-) I was right?! ;o > >Maybe. Although I obviously wouldn't do that because that's very degrading > >and sexist... > > Isn't bird-watching sexist as well? If we're talking real birds here, then no. If not, then... maybe. :) > >Food + women (consenting) = fun! > > Haven't tried yet... When you do, a quick hint: not McDonalds. :)) > >Food + computer (uh...) = mess all over keyboard (from the crumbs, from the > >crumbs - you're sick!) > > Hey, you're sick as well if you think you can foretell my reaction! ;-) I won't deny that. :) > >*POP* > > Pardon? *POP* :)) > >I do now. Didn't you know that Andy is in fact a Fed working for InterPol? > > I should know that I'm the boss of InterPol! Really? That's handy then. You must know each other. ;) > >You'd have been scared if I'd have brought Salt Spice and Pepper Spice, I'm > >sure. :) > > As long as Salt and Pepper would be female... ;-) "Spice Boys"? I'd be surprised... ;) > >And their feathers are... well... groomed. :) > > It seems that I don't understand that joke even when I looked up "groom" in > the dictionary... I can't remember what I meant anyway. It probably wasn't very funny. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 18 07:40:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA40731 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <38FC1F70.1CC0BCC5@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003658a216924af_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB125C.A90659E3@eurocopter.de> <000365758cc6ff37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB36F0.E89938B8@eurocopter.de> <00036577dee4cd37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FC1F70.1CC0BCC5@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:41:10 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> I didn't know the latter one. Isn't Cymru pronounced more like [kamri]? >Almost. It's pronounced like [kum-rEE]. Since I tried to stick to the IPA and you used the typical pseudo phonetics transscription that is that same, or at least I meant the same. >That's very good though for a >non-Welsh person. It appears you know more than most English people too! :o Thanks. But don't ask me why I know that because I couldn't explain it. >Yes, but that'd mean there are no computers, no emulation - and no Dynarec. >Hmm... No Dynarec. Is that necessarily a bad thing? :o Yes! >> >If one A means Arsch, then I'm not sure I want to know! >I was right?! ;o Indeed ;-) The translation for LMAA would be KMA. >If we're talking real birds here, then no. If not, then... maybe. :) Sometimes there isn't much difference anyway... >> >Food + women (consenting) = fun! >When you do, a quick hint: not McDonalds. :)) Since I'm not a great fan of McDonalds that's not much of a problem, the women will be the big problem... >*POP* Ok, is it an acronym or are you just trying to tease me again? >> I should know that I'm the boss of InterPol! >Really? That's handy then. You must know each other. ;) Nope, we are only known by code names of course, unless you're the boss, who has all information. >> As long as Salt and Pepper would be female... ;-) >"Spice Boys"? I'd be surprised... ;) I just wanted to see if you notice the error ;-) And I'm dreaming again... >Neil. -- M.I.Ke Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. -- Sam Brown, "The Washington Post", January 26, 1977 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 19 02:45:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA44488 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 02:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <38FD7F77.68A23C51@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:42:15 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarecs References: <001701bfa5f3$51a0ec80$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <00036535db23660f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <008a01bfa5fc$22c2da00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <000365364e6755a0_mailit@mailhub.rrze. <0003653ac7de15d7_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <031d01bfa62f$1b0a5940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <0003653bad883606_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <001801bfa64c$1ce72960$8f52883e@ben> <0003653e864fa218_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <002501bfa664$a801e4a0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003654200648037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FAB3BE.82CB4BA@eurocopter.de> <00036572ea16fe33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB125C.A90659E3@eurocopter.de> <000365758cc6ff37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FB36F0.E89938B8@eurocopter.de> <00036577dee4cd37_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <38FC1F70.1CC0BCC5@eurocopter.de> <0003658a216924af_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Almost. It's pronounced like [kum-rEE]. > > Since I tried to stick to the IPA and you used the typical pseudo phonetics > transscription that is that same, or at least I meant the same. Okay. Anyway, that's very good. :) > >That's very good though for a > >non-Welsh person. It appears you know more than most English people too! :o > > Thanks. But don't ask me why I know that because I couldn't explain it. And, moreover, is it useful to know? I don't think so. Except that it makes learning a new language easier - but then it has its downsides too. For instance, I can speak in either English, Welsh or French. My German is getting better, but it's nowhere near good. Anyway, I now get confused when speaking either French or German and mixing up the languages. AARGH! > >> >If one A means Arsch, then I'm not sure I want to know! > >I was right?! ;o > > Indeed ;-) > The translation for LMAA would be KMA. Kick My Arse? If it's that, that's not a request. :) > >> >Food + women (consenting) = fun! > >When you do, a quick hint: not McDonalds. :)) > > Since I'm not a great fan of McDonalds that's not much of a problem, the > women will be the big problem... None at your workplace? > >*POP* > > Ok, is it an acronym or are you just trying to tease me again? Er... I couldn't remember why I wrote it - but now I do. It's because you wrote "Oh no!" and I put in "*POP*". Still no idea? Think "Lemmings". :) > >Really? That's handy then. You must know each other. ;) > > Nope, we are only known by code names of course, unless you're the boss, who > has all information. You should know then! > >> As long as Salt and Pepper would be female... ;-) > >"Spice Boys"? I'd be surprised... ;) > > I just wanted to see if you notice the error ;-) Haha! Your plan failed! I spotted the error. ;) > And I'm dreaming again... Not of Itanium processors I hope! Anyway, I'm off home now. Well, in about 20 mins. I'll speak to you all again next Wednesday. See you! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 19 09:10:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA45370 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: DRFAQ update From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <0003659f7d60aa34_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:10:07 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com, DavidSharp@ThePentagon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I guess that subject says it all... -- M.I.Ke Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of APL, I shall fear no evil, for I can string six primitive monadic and dyadic operators together. -- Steve Higgins --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat Apr 22 11:51:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12108 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:51:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:51:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: OS Upgrade moved from the 29th to Tuesday the 25th Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com The priorly planned OS upgrade has been moved from the 28th-29th to this Tuesday. Expect Synthcom to be unreachable for nearly all day - it will be back online late Tuesday night at the latest. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 00:13:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01834 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:13:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004250717.JAA25984@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: SI and DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <0003659f7d60aa34_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 19, 2000 06:10:07 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:17:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Umm ... Hello, It seems that the SI emulator it's now working and without my help. Oh, well, I will have more time for dynarec. But also seems MIKE has started a DRFAQ, so what it's supposed I have to do now? ;) Only a week out and ... I haven't still readed all the MUL8 mails but it seems it's been discused if the SI project will use MZ80 core or a new one. I'm already interested in building the 8080 core. And as I didn't think in discuss the schematics ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 03:10:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA02506 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 03:10:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI and DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004250717.JAA25984@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366132fafbeea_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004250717.JAA25984@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:12:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It seems that the SI emulator it's now working and without my help. Oh, >well, I will have more time for dynarec. Think positively ;-) >But also seems MIKE has started a DRFAQ, so >what it's supposed I have to do now? ;) You could take a look if I forgot something important. And how about a Spanish translation? ;-) >Only a week out and ... I know, but the good news is that you didn't miss anything important on this mailing list... -- M.I.Ke You don't have to think too hard when you talk to teachers. -- J. D. Salinger --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 05:01:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02735 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:01:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004251204.OAA00105@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI and DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <000366132fafbeea_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 25, 2000 12:12:00 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:04:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >It seems that the SI emulator it's now working and without my help. Oh, > >well, I will have more time for dynarec. > > Think positively ;-) I'm too pesimist to not to think positively ;) > > >But also seems MIKE has started a DRFAQ, so > >what it's supposed I have to do now? ;) > > You could take a look if I forgot something important. And how about a > Spanish translation? ;-) > I will take a careful look ... someday. Until thursday I'm busy :( The translation seems a good idea ;) And I'm sure I still will have ideas for the FAQ. > >Only a week out and ... > > I know, but the good news is that you didn't miss anything important on this > mailing list... > Really?, I still haven't readed all the mails (around 80) posted last week. Only a very fast look up. Victor Moya P.S.: What has happenned? The last mail I get was 19th April, and NG is still around? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 05:48:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02839 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:52:25 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: ARM emulation Message-ID: <20000425145223.B754@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, I don't know exactly how much interest it'll be to members of this group (about how many are there here anyway?), but I've been coding a dynamic-recompiling ARM emulator (on x86 Linux) over the last few months for a final-year university project. Now, I intend to carry on working on the emulator for fun, as a handy alternative to revising for finals... ;-) The emulator's in a state where it can run some amount of code under recompilation (with a slightly-disappointing sixfold speed increase over the 'normal' emulation it is also capable of), but there are some bugs remaining and some important feature omissions. The code produced dynamically is 'real' x86 machine code, not intermediate or threaded code of some description. I guess other people have come to the stage in projects of this sort where debugging becomes extremely difficult (two different types of processor aren't supported by most debuggers for one thing...) - are there any hints and tips anyone has which might be useful to me? If anyone's interested in having a look at what I've done so far, there's a little bit of information and a CVS source snapshot at: http://jtb20.quns.cam.ac.uk/armdynrec/index.html Any (serious) collaboration efforts will be considered if you feel like helping, particularly if you're interested in Acorn/RISC OS emulation. Bear in mind that, strictly speaking, I don't have any spare time for about the next six weeks (see first paragraph)... Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 06:36:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02929 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 06:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004251339.PAA25417@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: ARM emulation In-Reply-To: <20000425145223.B754@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> from Julian Brown at "Apr 25, 2000 02:52:25 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:39:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > I don't know exactly how much interest it'll be to members of this group > (about how many are there here anyway?), but I've been coding a > dynamic-recompiling ARM emulator (on x86 Linux) over the last few months > for a final-year university project. Now, I intend to carry on working on > the emulator for fun, as a handy alternative to revising for finals... ;-) > Oh, yet another university project about dynarec. How many there are now? ;) Welcome anyway. > > I guess other people have come to the stage in projects of this sort where > debugging becomes extremely difficult (two different types of processor > aren't supported by most debuggers for one thing...) - are there any hints > and tips anyone has which might be useful to me? > As I still haven't started to write code (my university project it's stopped now) I can't really help with this. But I'm working with a static translator trying to find the errors in the PowerPc translator and it's really hard, and I'm using a Power and an Alpha (target machine) at the same time (using a X-Terminal). Now we are trying to automatice the process using trace system and then searching for diffs. > If anyone's interested in having a look at what I've done so far, there's > a little bit of information and a CVS source snapshot at: > > http://jtb20.quns.cam.ac.uk/armdynrec/index.html > It seems it doesn't work. > Any (serious) collaboration efforts will be considered if you feel like > helping, particularly if you're interested in Acorn/RISC OS emulation. > Bear in mind that, strictly speaking, I don't have any spare time > for about the next six weeks (see first paragraph)... > Most of the people in the list it's usually busy ... it's sure I am. But I'm sure you will get some help. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 07:39:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03066 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:39:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:42:52 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: ARM emulation Message-ID: <20000425164252.A996@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <20000425145223.B754@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <200004251339.PAA25417@pons.ac.upc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <200004251339.PAA25417@pons.ac.upc.es>; from Victor Moya del Barrio on Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:39:59PM +0200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:39:59PM +0200, Victor Moya del Barrio wrote: > > > I guess other people have come to the stage in projects of this sort where > > debugging becomes extremely difficult (two different types of processor > > aren't supported by most debuggers for one thing...) - are there any hints > > and tips anyone has which might be useful to me? > > > As I still haven't started to write code (my university project it's stopped > now) I can't really help with this. But I'm working with a static translator > trying to find the errors in the PowerPc translator and it's really hard, and > I'm using a Power and an Alpha (target machine) at the same time (using a > X-Terminal). Now we are trying to automatice the process using trace system > and then searching for diffs. I have a roughly similar setup (real machines with x86 and StrongARM processors), but I haven't tried to automate any testing or verification process using both yet - I guessed that trying to do that would be practically as hard as the rest of the project again... > > If anyone's interested in having a look at what I've done so far, there's > > a little bit of information and a CVS source snapshot at: > > > > http://jtb20.quns.cam.ac.uk/armdynrec/index.html > > It seems it doesn't work. Oh? Can anyone see that page and/or the rest of the site, or is my server broken or being blocked by something? It seems to work fine from the bits of network I have access to, but someone else (from within .cam.ac.uk) has been complaining they can't access the server... I'll check my config again. > Most of the people in the list it's usually busy ... it's sure I am. > But I'm sure you will get some help. OK, thanks for replying anyway, Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 07:45:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03095 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:45:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:48:45 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: ARM emulation Message-ID: <20000425164844.A1056@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <20000425145223.B754@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <200004251339.PAA25417@pons.ac.upc.es> <20000425164252.A996@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <20000425164252.A996@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk>; from Julian Brown on Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 04:42:52PM +0100 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 04:42:52PM +0100, Julian Brown wrote: > Oh? Can anyone see that page and/or the rest of the site, or is my server > broken or being blocked by something? It seems to work fine from the bits > of network I have access to, but someone else (from within .cam.ac.uk) > has been complaining they can't access the server... I'll check my config > again. Sorry to reply to my own message - I think I might have fixed that problem now... Julian -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 09:45:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03382 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: ARM emulation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <20000425145223.B754@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <00036618b90d2c66_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20000425145223.B754@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:48:20 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I don't know exactly how much interest it'll be to members of this group >(about how many are there here anyway?), but I've been coding a >dynamic-recompiling ARM emulator (on x86 Linux) over the last few months >for a final-year university project. Now, I intend to carry on working on >the emulator for fun, as a handy alternative to revising for finals... ;-) Interest? Certainly! I'm always interested in dynarecs and especially if it has something to do with ARM on one of the sides. >The emulator's in a state where it can run some amount of code under >recompilation (with a slightly-disappointing sixfold speed increase over >the 'normal' emulation it is also capable of), but there are some bugs >remaining and some important feature omissions. The code produced >dynamically is 'real' x86 machine code, not intermediate or threaded code >of some description. Very nice! I think the sixfold speed increase sounds quite realistic. I'm pleased to hear that you produce "real" code since I found out that James Ponder mainly used threaded code for Generator :-( >I guess other people have come to the stage in projects of this sort where >debugging becomes extremely difficult (two different types of processor >aren't supported by most debuggers for one thing...) - are there any hints >and tips anyone has which might be useful to me? The only way to debug the code is probably to dump the disassembled source and traget blocks in a file and check these instruction per instruction. I don't think that anyone found a more fancy debugging method yet. >If anyone's interested in having a look at what I've done so far, there's >a little bit of information and a CVS source snapshot at: > http://jtb20.quns.cam.ac.uk/armdynrec/index.html I'll take a look, thanks! >Any (serious) collaboration efforts will be considered if you feel like >helping, particularly if you're interested in Acorn/RISC OS emulation. >Bear in mind that, strictly speaking, I don't have any spare time >for about the next six weeks (see first paragraph)... Try contacting Chris Lloyd, who wrote the best Archimedes emulator "Archie", whose main flaw is the bad speed: http://archieemu.cjb.net/ >Jules -- M.I.Ke The truth is what is; what should be is a dirty lie. -- Lenny Bruce --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 11:19:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03785 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:19:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI and DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004251204.OAA00105@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <0003661a04ceab85_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004251204.OAA00105@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:21:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'm too pesimist to not to think positively ;) You're also too funny to be taken seriously ;-) >I will take a careful look ... someday. Until thursday I'm busy :( Let's hope I can provide some more sections till then. >The translation seems a good idea ;) It is, isn't it? ;-) >And I'm sure I still will have ideas for the FAQ. I hope so, I'm certainly not perfect! Any ideas and contributions are welcome. >Really?, I still haven't readed all the mails (around 80) posted last week. >Only a very fast look up. So many? >Victor Moya >P.S.: What has happenned? The last mail I get was 19th April, There wasn't much traffic on the list and the message on the 19th and the one on the 22th were the last ones till today. >and NG is still around? He went to Cymru (Wales) and will be back on Wednesday IIRC. -- M.I.Ke Pro is to con as progress is to Congress. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue Apr 25 14:34:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04655 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:34:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Bradley To: rasterlist@synthcom.com, vectorlist@synthcom.com, dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Synthcom downtime Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Roughly 3 hour warning - Synthcom will be down at around 4-5PM and will stay down until roughly 2AM PDT for an OS upgrade. No data will be lost, but I do expect some things to break (for dialin users). If worse comes to worst, I'll throw the old hard drive back online to restore system service so it'll be back online guaranteed. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 26 01:32:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00380 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:32:59 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beacon.synthcom.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39069819.A73A4926@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:17:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: I'm back! :) References: <200004251204.OAA00105@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003661a04ceab85_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, Not only am I back but WOW, have I got a lot of e-mails. Well, yes, actually. :) The SI project is coming along. I'm glad they're sorting it out by themselves, it means that I have more time to myself - and so do you, Victor. :) I'm also interested by the new dynarec emulator, Julian. I bet it's hard work getting that up to scratch in Cambridge University! I have two friends who work there in the tech support section... Anyway, I'll be taking a look at that a bit later. Anyway, I've got to go back and pretend to work. I'll actually be e-mailing other people to tell them that I'm back - and telling them that I'm pretending to work too. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 26 02:08:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA08530 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 02:08:33 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004260846.KAA19933@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm back! :) In-Reply-To: <39069819.A73A4926@eurocopter.de> from Neil Griffiths at "Apr 26, 2000 09:17:45 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:46:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > Not only am I back but WOW, have I got a lot of e-mails. Well, yes, > actually. :) > Hehe, the same happened to me yesterday ;) More than 80s mails to read ... > The SI project is coming along. I'm glad they're sorting it out by > themselves, it means that I have more time to myself - and so do you, > Victor. :) > Yes I get really surprised yesterday when I saw all those mails, it makes me really happy. > I'm also interested by the new dynarec emulator, Julian. I bet it's hard > work getting that up to scratch in Cambridge University! I have two friends > who work there in the tech support section... Anyway, I'll be taking a look > at that a bit later. > DYNAREC list it's becoming more interesting every day :) > Anyway, I've got to go back and pretend to work. I'll actually be e-mailing > other people to tell them that I'm back - and telling them that I'm > pretending to work too. :) > :)) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 26 02:16:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA08771 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 02:16:56 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 02:16:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Duplicate messages Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Can we not send duplicate messages to the list if they don't get bounced back to you? I've already warned everyone on all mailing lists that Synthcom was undergoing an OS upgrade (which it is now back from). All it does is just cause messages to get clogged up in a queue elsewhere and then spew double messages to the list later on causing me to scratch my head and wonder why my machine is sending out double messages, when in fact it's nothing more than incessant pinging from mail list members. Thank you! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 26 03:01:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA13706 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 03:01:26 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm back! :) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <39069819.A73A4926@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036627258841ca_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004251204.OAA00105@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003661a04ceab85_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39069819.A73A4926@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:00:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Not only am I back but WOW, have I got a lot of e-mails. Well, yes, >actually. :) Oh my, he's back, AHHHHH! >I'm also interested by the new dynarec emulator, Julian. I bet it's hard >work getting that up to scratch in Cambridge University! I have two friends >who work there in the tech support section... Anyway, I'll be taking a look >at that a bit later. It sounds very interesting indeed ;-) >Anyway, I've got to go back and pretend to work. I'll actually be e-mailing >other people to tell them that I'm back - and telling them that I'm >pretending to work too. :) Isn't that exactly what you did before Easter as well? ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.Ke WARNING TO ALL PERSONNEL: Firings will continue until morale improves. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 26 03:14:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA13780 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 03:14:36 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 03:14:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: mul8@synthcom.com, rasterlist@synthcom.com, vectorlist@synthcom.com, dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Synthcom back online Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Synthcom is back up on the new OS. Things appear to be running smoothly. Majordomo is working fine. All mail programs are working fine. Dialin lines are working fine. FTP, Web, etc... all work as it should. For those of who you emailed me or spammed the mailing lists with mulitple messages, shame on you. I warned you already that Synthcom would be down and that it would be back up by 2AM PDT (it came up at 1:45AM). There is going to be some mail queue weirdness (as in some messages not being delivered at all and followups coming through OK) as there were messages queued up before the switchover took place. The mail queue file formats aren't compatiable, so we've lost a few messages (nothing to the MAME or MESSDEV lists, though) in the transition. And I have no intention of sifting through the messages by hand to figure out what they were, either, so don't ask. ;-) Also do not assume Synthcom is down or malfunctioning. Reserve that judgement until a few days have passed. I'm sure there are several mail servers out there that couldn't contact Synthcom for a few hours and have queued messages up for Synthcom. That means you'll get messages out of order. This is a normal downtime transition process that should work itself out in the next 24-48 hours. FreeBSD 4.0 is snappier than 3.2 is. Turnaround time on just about every operation is much quicker. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed Apr 26 13:59:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA01464 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:59:02 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <000366305f9e3e24_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:01:18 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, I've uploaded the modified DRFAQ with an alternative version for the dispatcher code which uses less function pointer casts. Could you tell me please if I should leave the old one or the new one. Just in case you've lost the URL (or we have even new lurkers): http://www.linguistik.uni-erlangen.de/~mlkoenig/drfaq.html -- M.I.Ke "It's bad luck to be superstitious." -- Andrew W. Mathis --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 02:53:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00988 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:53:51 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <000366305f9e3e24_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> from Michael Koenig at "Apr 26, 2000 11:01:18 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:57:24 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > I've uploaded the modified DRFAQ with an alternative version for the > dispatcher code which uses less function pointer casts. Could you tell me > please if I should leave the old one or the new one. I prefer the one I wrote in my own document, it's less C alike ;) The new one it's the best for me, but I think that when writen pseudocode using pointer casts has no sense. I doesn't helps understand the algorithm but dirties it. Just my thoughts. Finally! I have the time to read the FAQ today :) Just a quick lookup ... FAQ means frequently asked questions, you see a question, an answer, I think this document itsn't a FAQ. But it's still a good name ;) > Basic Blocks and Translation Units I have this too in my old never finished stopped until Judgement day document, but in the spanish version ;) Perhaps it's time to translate it. > Prolog and Epilog Shade? ;) > Translation Mapping (TransMap) I invented the name !!! > Paged TransMap I invented the technique !!! :)) About self-modifying code I have a new idea, I think I will write it tomorrow. The document resembles a lot my own ideas, when I was still writing my document, now stopped. Perhaps I will have to take a look my notes ... I think I have still more documents about dynarec, but I think you have it also ... I mean Embra, FX!32, some other from Apple, I will take a look for tomorrow. The Spanish translation will be for next monday ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 07:15:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA01516 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:15:57 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004271417.QAA00278@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: SI In-Reply-To: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> from Victor Moya del Barrio at "Apr 27, 2000 11:57:24 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:17:44 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com About SI project. I think there are too much discussion around how to do the project. This was already discussed when you presented it. And although its a project from all the group there was a main 'chief' (Neil Griffiths) that could put order on it. Now it's becoming too disorganized in my thoughts. What it's going to happen now. I thought in start something next week, but now ... If not I still have to end my (internal use) document about Neil Bradley's emulator, and I want also to work around MIKE's document. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 07:33:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA01591 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:33:45 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39084ECB.6A1B167@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:29:31 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <000366305f9e3e24_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I've uploaded the modified DRFAQ with an alternative version for the > dispatcher code which uses less function pointer casts. Could you tell me > please if I should leave the old one or the new one. Looking good, Mike. Now there's almost as much content as there are subheadings. ;) No, really, it's looking good. But I want to know who those insane people are who distinguish between "dynamic compilation" and "dynamic recompilation"! ;) Neil. PS "UltraHLE's dirty trick" sounds like something rude and definitely for the over-18s. ;)) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 09:04:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02070 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:04:26 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <39084ECB.6A1B167@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366403ba320b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <000366305f9e3e24_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39084ECB.6A1B167@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:56:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Looking good, Mike. Now there's almost as much content as there are >subheadings. ;) I hope that I can add more text than headings in the future... >No, really, it's looking good. But I want to know who those insane people >are who distinguish between "dynamic compilation" and "dynamic >recompilation"! ;) I think there was some insane Welsh guy whose name I forgot... >PS "UltraHLE's dirty trick" sounds like something rude and definitely for >the over-18s. ;)) It is! ;-) -- M.I.Ke I don't mind what Congress does, as long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses. -- Victor Hugo --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 09:04:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02078 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:04:28 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:05:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I prefer the one I wrote in my own document, it's less C alike ;) More Pascal-like? ;-) >The new one it's the best for me, but I think that when writen pseudocode >using >pointer casts has no sense. I doesn't helps understand the algorithm but >dirties it. Just my thoughts. I wanted to reduce the casts because it should improve understanding, but what I wrote is no pseudo-code, it should run when all variables and functions are declared. >FAQ means frequently asked questions, you see a question, an answer, I think >this document itsn't a FAQ. But it's still a good name ;) I noticed the problem as well, but I didn't want to collect all possible questions before starting with the answers. I'm also of the opinion that the taken approach has less fragmentary text. >> Prolog and Epilog >Shade? ;) How did you guess? >> Translation Mapping (TransMap) >I invented the name !!! I know, and I like it that's why I used it. >> Paged TransMap >I invented the technique !!! Do you want credit or what? ;-) >About self-modifying code I have a new idea, I think I will write it >tomorrow. I'll be longing for it ;-) >The document resembles a lot my own ideas, when I was still writing my >document, >now stopped. Perhaps I will have to take a look my notes ... Might help. >I think I have still more documents about dynarec, but I think you have it >also ... I mean Embra, FX!32, some other from Apple, I will take a look for >tomorrow. I have more documents as well, but I wanted to sort the crap out and put in only the useful stuff. I don't know about further documents from Apple, maybe you mean the article about Virtual PC by Eric Traut. I don't think that it's this useful. I guess Embra will be added for sure. FX!32 is no dynarec but a interpreter with a static binary translator, since translation is performed after execution and not during runtime. >The Spanish translation will be for next monday ;) Aren't you afraid that I might change the whole thing? ;-) -- M.I.Ke "Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 23:21:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00960 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 23:21:36 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39092D72.AB87AE98@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:19:30 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <000366305f9e3e24_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39084ECB.6A1B167@eurocopter.de> <000366403ba320b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Looking good, Mike. Now there's almost as much content as there are > >subheadings. ;) > > I hope that I can add more text than headings in the future... I think we all do. If I can help at all, just let me know. > >No, really, it's looking good. But I want to know who those insane people > >are who distinguish between "dynamic compilation" and "dynamic > >recompilation"! ;) > > I think there was some insane Welsh guy whose name I forgot... Hey, I'm not Welsh. I just live in Wales... and speak Welsh. I was born in England though. But hey, the majority of my family is Welsh so I can forgive you. ;) Heh, I've got a truly British name though. My first name is Scottish (Neil), my second name is English (I'm not telling you!) and my last name is Welsh. > >PS "UltraHLE's dirty trick" sounds like something rude and definitely for > >the over-18s. ;)) > > It is! ;-) Ah. That'd explain it. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 23:33:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00994 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 23:33:02 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:26:26 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I prefer the one I wrote in my own document, it's less C alike ;) > > More Pascal-like? ;-) Below here is where you said "pseudocode". I have to agree. Pascal-like code is pseudocode. Why do I say that? Well, it's not real code. ;) Okay, I'm biased. Mainly because I use Ada all day. :-/ > I wanted to reduce the casts because it should improve understanding, but > what I wrote is no pseudo-code, it should run when all variables and > functions are declared. I compiled it in my Pascal compiler and it didn't work, what can I do? ;p > >> Prolog and Epilog > >Shade? ;) > > How did you guess? Aargh! Don't mention Prolog to me. I still have nightmares over that language. And the worst thing is that I recieved a phone call last night at around 11:30pm from a friend with a... Prolog problem. Aargh! Because of that, I have now come up with the following theory: Prolog = Satanism. :) > >> Paged TransMap > >I invented the technique !!! > > Do you want credit or what? ;-) I think he wants money for every time it's used. ;) > >The Spanish translation will be for next monday ;) > > Aren't you afraid that I might change the whole thing? ;-) I could translate it to Welsh... but that'd be silly. I could translate it to French too - but that'd be stupid. ;) > "Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly." Wise advice. A forklift truck would be well advised. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 23:37:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01020 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 23:37:38 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004280641.IAA15355@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at Apr 27, 2000 06:05:38 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:41:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I prefer the one I wrote in my own document, it's less C alike ;) > > More Pascal-like? ;-) > Yes! ;) BTW have you readed my attempt of document? I think I posted it somewhere, but I can't remember where it was. > I wanted to reduce the casts because it should improve understanding, but > what I wrote is no pseudo-code, it should run when all variables and > functions are declared. > For a document I like more pseudo-code. > >> Paged TransMap > >I invented the technique !!! > > Do you want credit or what? ;-) > Yes! ;) > >About self-modifying code I have a new idea, I think I will write it > >tomorrow. > > I'll be longing for it ;-) > Just wait to my next mail ;) > I have more documents as well, but I wanted to sort the crap out and put in > only the useful stuff. > I don't know about further documents from Apple, maybe you mean the article > about Virtual PC by Eric Traut. I don't think that it's this useful. I think it is, but I can't remember about what it was ... I will have to reread it. > FX!32 is no dynarec but a interpreter with a static binary translator, since > translation is performed after execution and not during runtime > But I think it's still interesting, it has some interesting ideas. > >The Spanish translation will be for next monday ;) > > Aren't you afraid that I might change the whole thing? ;-) > Oh ... It doesn't matter ;) But it will be for tuesday, monday it's 'Workers Day'(I don't know the english translation) and it's holiday. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 23:40:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01036 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 23:40:30 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004280644.IAA13429@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Apr 28, 2000 08:26:26 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:44:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >> Prolog and Epilog > > >Shade? ;) > > > > How did you guess? > > Aargh! Don't mention Prolog to me. I still have nightmares over that > language. And the worst thing is that I recieved a phone call last night at > around 11:30pm from a friend with a... Prolog problem. Aargh! > > Because of that, I have now come up with the following theory: Prolog = > Satanism. > > :) > Prolog! Prolog! Prolog! Prolog! Do you have enough? :)) > > >> Paged TransMap > > >I invented the technique !!! > > > > Do you want credit or what? ;-) > > I think he wants money for every time it's used. ;) > Why not? ;) > > "Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly." > > Wise advice. A forklift truck would be well advised. Indeed. How could I miss it? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu Apr 27 23:53:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01061 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 23:53:00 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004280657.IAA23962@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <200004280641.IAA15355@pons.ac.upc.es> "from Victor Moya del Barrio at Apr 28, 2000 08:41:47 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:57:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=ELM956905028-14216-0_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com --ELM956905028-14216-0_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > BTW have you readed my attempt of document? I think I posted it somewhere, but > I can't remember where it was. > I think I will post it. Now ;) Victor Moya --ELM956905028-14216-0_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=dynarec.txt Emulators and dynamic recompilation (by Victor Moya del Barrio) Index 1. Introduction. 2. Definitions. 3. Basic algorithm for dynamic translation. 4. Basic blocks, problems. Translation unit. 5. Code generation. 6. Memory access and I/O. 7. Timing, interruptions. 8. Self-modifying code. 9. Other forms of binary translation. 9.1 Interpreter vs translator. 9.2 Static vs Dynamic Translation. 10. Conclusions. 11. Related works. 12. Sources. 1. Introduction. I started in this emulation world five years ago (perhaps you could remember those Gameboy and MSX emulators from Marat Fayzullin the first I saw). I began as an interested user. Interested in playing and also in all techniques about emulation. But I was too busy (or I was too lazy) to do nothing more than search information and just begin M68000 and Z80 CPU cores. I saw too the lack of good emulation documents. OK there are some ones really good like Marat, Dan Boris, the Arcade Emulation HowTo, the Emulation Mechanism discussion and perhaps some others, but they are incomplete. There are many things that you have to learn by yourself. So I thought in a document that compiles all the emulation techniques: interpretation and dynamic recompilation and the full forms they are implemented, the large number of graphic and sound hardware and how to emulate it (sprites, vectors, 3D, FM, DAC, ...). All this information with examples of use, with algorithm, with all that could be useful to build an emulator from an 80 arcade machine to (someday and not too late) a DreamCast. So this what I'm trying to do. I don't remember when was the first time I heard about dynamic recompilation, but I think it was two or three years ago, perhaps in some emulation mechanism discussion. There wasn't playable emulators that used dynamic recompilation (or I didn't known them) and I talked with friends about how would be a dynamic recompilation emulator. Then it appear PSEmuPro and later UltraHLE that used dynamic recompilation to emulate the high-end machines of this days (PlayStation and Nintendo64) so dynamic recompilation became a useful (and used) technique for emulation and was known in all the emulation world. Dynamic recompilation helps to build faster emulators than interpreters so it was useful for begin the fight against emulation of this high-end machines that would be impossible (it would have been really slow an interpreter emulator for Play, and I don't know if this days, with 1 GHz CPU pushing our door, this could be possible). So in this document I talk about dynamic recompilation, a technique I think it has a splendid future. The term 'dynamic recompilation' is used for name a technique for CPU emulation. I think a more correct term is dynamic translation. First, we look in the term: 'dynamic recompilation'. The first word is 'recompilation', what does it mean?, it is the generation of object code from a source representation (like C or another programming language), the prefix 're-' means that it's done more than once. This is useful for solve the self-modifying code o dynamic generation problem. 'Dynamic' means that it's done in execution time, and it's done each time you execute the program (static means it's done only once, when you do the compilation). Static compilation it's difficult to implement because there are things that are only known (or may be difficult to known) at execution time. One more it's that the emulators we want to do are for execute a large number of programs, each different, so static compilation of each of it would be too expensive, our emulators have to be a lot of flexible. If we look the full term it means execution time compilation of code and that each block of code can be compiled more than once. I think it's more correct to name it dynamic (object code or binary) translation. I think 'compilation' it's an another thing. Compilation it's used for machine code generation from a high level language like C or Pascal. Compilation implies the use of parse techniques, to build an intermediate representation (like 3-address code), to optimize it and finally to do code generation. In an emulator that uses 'dynamic recompilation' none of these is done, you do, most of times, an adhoc translation from source machine code to target machine code with little or not optimization. And an emulator can or not to use 'recompilation', only if it handles self-modifying code can be named a recompiler. For example, Java Hot Spot it's a dynamic recompiler because it compiles a language like Java (although in a byte code representation) to a machine code for a target machine, an emulator like UltraHle or PSEmuPro uses dynamic translation because translates MIPS code to x86 code. So I think it's better to name this technique dynamic translation, and I will use this term in this entire document. (But I realize that 'dynamic recompilation' it's a better- known term and it could be used like a 'mark' term). 2. Definitions. What concepts or terms would you want I do a definition? 3. Basic algorithm for dynamic translation. The basic algorithm for dynamic translation it's very simple and resembles with the interpretation algorithm. It's an infinite loop that takes the value of the PC from emulated CPU and search for a translated block of code. If it's found a translated block that begins in the PC address it's executed. If not a new translation is made from the PC address, the translated block is stored and it's executed. After the execution the translated code returns to the main loop. In a kind of C code it would be something like that: for(;;) { if (getTranslation(PC,TC,TB) execute(TB); else { TB = translateBlock(PC); storeBlock(PC,TB,TC); execute(TB); } // emulation of interruptions, video and sound hardware, etc. } TC or Translation Cache is the data structure where translated blocks (TB) are stored. To get a TB you have to access this structure. TB is the data structure which store a translated block (translated code and another optional data). Function getTranslation(PC, TC, TB) search for a TB in the TC, if it is found a TB that begins in PC address the function returns a true value and puts in TB a pointer to the translated block, if it isn't found a false value is returned. Function execute(TB) do a jump to the translated block in TB. Instruction TB = translateBlock(PC) gets a block from address in PC and makes a translation. Function storeBlock(PC,TB,TC) stores the translated block structure, TB, which begins in address PC in the TC structure. Interruption, device and other hardware emulation it's made as in an interpreter, after translated block execution. I talk this in section 6 and 7. You can see it's an easy concept, but his implementation it's really hard. The CPU emulation it's a hard task, as it's in an interpreter, but in a dynamic translator it's harder. In the CPU emulation you have to deal with a great number of CPU instructions and manage to make all them to work when a lot of errors could happen. In dynamic translation you have to manage other problems also. First, if we follow compilation theory we have to use basic blocks as translation unit, but it's hard to identify basic block in execution time. We work, most of time, with a kind of basic block. The translation of a block will start from the PC address and end with the first jump instruction (or another kind of branch instruction like call, ret, ...) we find. I talk a lot about the basic blocks and the translation unit in section 4. The next problem we found is translation. There are a lot of ways to make a translation and we have to found the best way to make it. Translation has a great impact in the performance of the emulator. If we don't find a good translation method or translator could be slower than an interpreter could. There are two different point of views: making an expensive translation, with a lot of optimizations, that will make a very fast translated code. Or we can do a fast translation with little or not optimization and the translated code will be a bit slower. We have to find the good balance between these two ways, we have to choice the better way for our emulator. The most often dynamic translation emulators do a fast translation with a few optimizations. This is because this emulators works with an approximation of basic blocks and the number of optimizations that someone can make in them are few, a basic block has only a few instructions. Making more optimizations means a slower translation with the almost the same code generated. Exceptions can be found as DIGITAL FX!32 (a x86 emulator for Alpha NT which executes win32 application). This emulator works with larger blocks (his document talks of routine size blocks) and a lot of more local and global optimizations can be made. This is an interesting emulator because it mixes an interpreter with a background optimizer-translator (if you know Java Hot Spot, it works in a very same way). I will talk some more about this emulator later. Another problem is how do you access to the TC to retrieve the translated code. It has to be very fast. It's used a hash table to access it (when you have a large memory space) or an array with a pointer to translated code for each address (thank you Neil). I will talk about TC in section 4. There are more things you have to look at that you can't see in this algorithm. Memory access, input/output (device access, which could be memory mapped and then is a subset of memory acces or in his own address space), how you manage self-modifying code, how you do timing and more things. I will talk about them in next sections. A translated block has this general structure: a prologue (that it will be or not, often it won't) where you can make some initializations (as register preload, as some tests as could be verifying speculative jumps in Embra); a body which has the translation for each source machine instruction, you can make some optimizations like suppress flag evaluation. Finally, in epilogue the full CPU state is stored in his canonical location (virtual state is stored in the data structures or registers you have assigned to it). You can do some more tests, like testing the number of executed cycles to end the execution or continue in next translated block (if chaining is used). The emulated CPU state is stored in a data structure like this: an array for each machine register, some variables for special registers as PC (program counter) or SP (stak pointer), some variables for store state and condition bits of the machine (flags) and perhaps some other variables for monitoring (like number of already executed cycles). Many times if you have enough registers in target machine you reserve some registers to emulate some (or all) source machine registers (for exemple is useful to have PC ever in a register). 4. Basic blocks, problems. Translation unit. 5. Code generation. 6. Memory access and I/O. 7. Timing, interruptions. 8. Self-modifying code 9. Other forms of dynamic translation. 10. Conclusions. 11. Related work. 12. Sources. --ELM956905028-14216-0_-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 00:24:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01153 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:24:31 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39093C4F.D84D8D@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:22:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004280644.IAA13429@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Prolog! Prolog! Prolog! Prolog! > Do you have enough? Waaah! Waaaaaaaah! Please! Stop! No more! I can't take it! :)) > > I think he wants money for every time it's used. ;) > > > Why not? ;) Well... you have a point. Damn, I've given him an idea... ;) > > > "Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly." > > > > Wise advice. A forklift truck would be well advised. > > Indeed. How could I miss it? The rhino or the forklift truck? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 00:33:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01187 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:33:06 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004280736.JAA18010@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <39093C4F.D84D8D@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Apr 28, 2000 09:22:55 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:36:33 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > Prolog! Prolog! Prolog! Prolog! > > Do you have enough? > > Waaah! Waaaaaaaah! Please! Stop! No more! I can't take it! > > :)) > Hehe, I'm so cruel ;) > > > I think he wants money for every time it's used. ;) > > > > > Why not? ;) > > Well... you have a point. Damn, I've given him an idea... ;) > I will call my advocates ;) > > > > "Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly." > > > > > > Wise advice. A forklift truck would be well advised. > > > > Indeed. How could I miss it? > > The rhino or the forklift truck? ;) > The rhino. I can still see a forklift truck, I'm not so blind ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 01:19:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01319 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:19:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3909493A.512CA714@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:18:02 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004280736.JAA18010@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Waaah! Waaaaaaaah! Please! Stop! No more! I can't take it! > > > > :)) > > > Hehe, I'm so cruel ;) *sniff* *sob* It's finished... Thank you... *sniff* > > Well... you have a point. Damn, I've given him an idea... ;) > > > I will call my advocates ;) Oh no! > > The rhino or the forklift truck? ;) > > > The rhino. I can still see a forklift truck, I'm not so blind ;) You don't need to see a rhino. You just need to listen to (and feel!) the shaking of the ground as it charges at you... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 01:30:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01364 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:30:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004280833.KAA10987@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) In-Reply-To: <200004280736.JAA18010@pons.ac.upc.es> "from Victor Moya del Barrio at Apr 28, 2000 09:36:33 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:33:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I will spend a bit of my time talking about the new idea I come last week about the self-modifying code problem. I think I have worked enough for a while ;) First question. Why is a problem self-modifying code? Because self-modifying code makes the dynarec to recompile the modified block of code each time a modification it's done. And because for detect that a block code has been modified we track all writes to (code) memory. But what will be the best solution? It isn't a interpreter or a mixed dynarec-interpreter. The best solution it's TRANSLATE the self-modifying code, build self-modifying translations. And with it I don't mean a putting a the translator code each time we find a memory write to code accesses, I mean a real translation of the block of code which self-modifies itself. It is to translate the intention of the code, not the machine code itself. Second question. Is it possible? First answer, no, it's impossible ;) OK. But why not? Because the translator it isn't a person or an IA, so it can't know the intention of the code ... Or perhaps it could? Well I was wandering if many of the self-modifying codes are similar or not. Perhaps someone can find some rules that would help to translate MANY, but not ALL, the self-modifying code. Here I stopped because I was on holidays, far away from a computer and my knowledge about self-modifying code it's bad, well, really very bad. So I think a bit of help now. I have explained well, or I have confused everybody ;) Do you understand what are my thoughts? Do you think it can be done? Do you think it comes the effort of study it? Have I made too many questions? ;) Something I'm sure. For an arcade machine emulator, with only a few games/programs to be executed on it, a modification of this idea it's the best. What you have to do it's to execute the game, search for self-modifying code and patch it. Tracking all writes to RAM code (?), using an interpreter or whatever are just a waste of time. And this come with the main idea I have behind this approach: perhaps we don't need to handle ALL the possible self-modifying code types, but just as many as we can, as many as a lot of programs games/programs could be executed. For the other programs/games just use the bad, old approach or an interpreter or just improve the translation of self-modifying code a bit more ;) So, what are your thoughts? I think It's a bit crazy idea, and I'm a bit crazy. But for sure I need help, I don't know as many code examples as some of you. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 01:32:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01381 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:32:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004280836.KAA16088@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <3909493A.512CA714@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Apr 28, 2000 10:18:02 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:35:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > The rhino or the forklift truck? ;) > > > > > The rhino. I can still see a forklift truck, I'm not so blind ;) > > You don't need to see a rhino. You just need to listen to (and feel!) the > shaking of the ground as it charges at you... :) > Then I'm also a bit deaf ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 01:49:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01424 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:49:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39094F6B.8FE97F35@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:44:27 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004280836.KAA16088@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > You don't need to see a rhino. You just need to listen to (and feel!) the > > shaking of the ground as it charges at you... :) > > > Then I'm also a bit deaf ;) That's okay - you can still feel the earth shake as it charges towards you. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 02:00:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01566 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 02:00:59 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004280903.LAA30170@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <39094F6B.8FE97F35@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Apr 28, 2000 10:44:27 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:03:54 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > > You don't need to see a rhino. You just need to listen to (and feel!) the > > > shaking of the ground as it charges at you... :) > > > > > Then I'm also a bit deaf ;) > > That's okay - you can still feel the earth shake as it charges towards you. > ;) > Oh, I think you have beaten me :( ... Or perhaps not :) I'm so absentminded that it's as I was floating over the floor ;) So If I'm floating I can't feel the earth shake ;)) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 02:15:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01649 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 02:15:54 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <390955C4.778E673F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:11:32 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004280903.LAA30170@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > That's okay - you can still feel the earth shake as it charges towards you. > > ;) > > > Oh, I think you have beaten me :( ... > > Or perhaps not :) > > I'm so absentminded that it's as I was floating over the floor ;) > > So If I'm floating I can't feel the earth shake ;)) Oh well. I guess you'll know when it actually hits you... I cannot believe how off-topic I can get... Victor, you've got to stop encouraging me! ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 02:17:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01658 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 02:17:04 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3909566B.3A43E26E@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:14:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) References: <200004280833.KAA10987@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I will spend a bit of my time talking about the new idea I come last week > about the self-modifying code problem. I think I have worked enough for a > while ;) Oh, I haven't. But I'm going to reply to it anyway! > First question. Why is a problem self-modifying code? Because self-modifying > code makes the dynarec to recompile the modified block of code each time a > modification it's done. And because for detect that a block code has been > modified we track all writes to (code) memory. But what will be the best > solution? It isn't a interpreter or a mixed dynarec-interpreter. The best > solution it's TRANSLATE the self-modifying code, build self-modifying > translations. And with it I don't mean a putting a the translator code each > time we find a memory write to code accesses, I mean a real translation of > the block of code which self-modifies itself. It is to translate the intention > of the code, not the machine code itself. Hmm, interesting concept. Let me think about it a little... > Second question. Is it possible? First answer, no, it's impossible ;) > OK. But why not? Because the translator it isn't a person or an IA, so it > can't know the intention of the code ... Or perhaps it could? Well I was > wandering if many of the self-modifying codes are similar or not. Perhaps > someone can find some rules that would help to translate MANY, but not ALL, > the self-modifying code. Here I stopped because I was on holidays, far away > from a computer and my knowledge about self-modifying code it's bad, well, > really very bad. So I think a bit of help now. My first thoughts were that it wouldn't be possible - you wouldn't know whether the bytes being emitted would be data or code. If it was data, translating it would be bad. However, maybe I have a workaround for this that could take your technique and improve it slightly for this possibility. I just don't know whether it would be faster than checking for any writes. My guess is that it could well be faster, so maybe it would be worth doing a little research into the subject. Okay, my workaround would be this: Keep the original code in memory. Translate the code as you would normally. During execution, when there is a write to memory, write it twice. Once in the native format over the original code. The other time you would translate it. That would mean that if the data was read from memory, you could give it the new data. But if it was the IP going over that address, you could execute the modified code. Now that's a possibility. That could well work. I just don't know whether it would be faster. But seeing as you could build it into your CPU core for every instruction which can change memory, it strikes me that this could be a faster method than having to check for modified memory. It might not be though. It could well be slower. And it's this reason why I want a dynamic CPU core - I can try out these new ideas! > I have explained well, or I have confused everybody ;) You've explained well I think. Unless I misunderstood you! > Do you understand what are my thoughts? Do you think it can be done? I think it couldn't be done exactly as you wrote it, but I think it could be done. > Do you think it comes the effort of study it? Have I made too many questions? > ;) It's worth giving some thought to, yes. :) > And this come with the main idea I have behind this approach: perhaps we don't > need to handle ALL the possible self-modifying code types, but just as many as > we can, as many as a lot of programs games/programs could be executed. For the > other programs/games just use the bad, old approach or an interpreter or just > improve the translation of self-modifying code a bit more ;) This is another technique that could work - but it's not so dissimilar to how static recompilation would work. > So, what are your thoughts? Well, me and this girl were... No, you don't want to know. ;)) > I think It's a bit crazy idea, and I'm a bit crazy. But for sure I need help, > I don't know as many code examples as some of you. You're crazy? I'm the one replying to e-mails talking about charging rhinos! :))) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 02:50:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01725 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 02:50:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004280953.LAA17494@abrell.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) In-Reply-To: <3909566B.3A43E26E@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Apr 28, 2000 11:14:19 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:53:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Second question. Is it possible? First answer, no, it's impossible ;) > > OK. But why not? Because the translator it isn't a person or an IA, so it > > can't know the intention of the code ... Or perhaps it could? Well I was > > wandering if many of the self-modifying codes are similar or not. Perhaps > > someone can find some rules that would help to translate MANY, but not ALL, > > the self-modifying code. Here I stopped because I was on holidays, far away > > from a computer and my knowledge about self-modifying code it's bad, well, > > really very bad. So I think a bit of help now. > > My first thoughts were that it wouldn't be possible - you wouldn't know > whether the bytes being emitted would be data or code. If it was data, > translating it would be bad. > An small bad example that it can work: - you know you are self-modifying code because it's a memory access to a memory address you have already translated (code to be modified) . . . mod_jump: jmp 0x1000 . . . (translation) . . . xxx: mov esi,[transmap + 0x1000] jump esi . . . (code that modifyies previous code) (you translate it after the previous code) mov word [mod_jump+0x01],0x2000 (normal translation) (with no memory mapping test) mov word [emulated_mem + mod_jump + 0x01],0x2000 ('translating the meaning' approach) // updating emulated memory (avoiding cheksums and reads ;) mov word [(emulated_mem + mod_jump + 0x01)],0x2000 // we modify our own translation (I hope I haven't missed something) mov word [(xxx + 0x0y)], (transmap + 0x2000) Take in care that my main idea isn't to translate all cases of self-modifying code, but enough of them to get something working. > Keep the original code in memory. Translate the code as you would normally. > During execution, when there is a write to memory, write it twice. Once in > the native format over the original code. The other time you would > translate it. That would mean that if the data was read from memory, you > could give it the new data. But if it was the IP going over that address, > you could execute the modified code. > > Now that's a possibility. That could well work. I just don't know whether > it would be faster. But seeing as you could build it into your CPU core for > every instruction which can change memory, it strikes me that this could be > a faster method than having to check for modified memory. It might not be > though. It could well be slower. And it's this reason why I want a dynamic > CPU core - I can try out these new ideas! > Ummm ... Interesting, I have to think about it, unluckly I have to leave for a class now ... I also think it can work. > > And this come with the main idea I have behind this approach: perhaps we don't > > need to handle ALL the possible self-modifying code types, but just as many as > > we can, as many as a lot of programs games/programs could be executed. For the > > other programs/games just use the bad, old approach or an interpreter or just > > improve the translation of self-modifying code a bit more ;) > > This is another technique that could work - but it's not so dissimilar to > how static recompilation would work. > Then perhaps static recompilation it isn't as bad at all ;) But the name still makes me feel really bad :o. > > So, what are your thoughts? > > Well, me and this girl were... No, you don't want to know. ;)) > Why not? ;)) Victor Moya P.S.: Finally!!!! We are on-topic!!! Do you see how easy it is? ;)) And we all learn new things :)) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 03:30:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01845 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 03:30:30 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <00a101bfb0fc$7b078200$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <200004280953.LAA17494@abrell.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:28:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Second question. Is it possible? First answer, no, it's impossible ;) > > > OK. But why not? Because the translator it isn't a person or an IA, so it > > > can't know the intention of the code ... Or perhaps it could? Well I was > > > wandering if many of the self-modifying codes are similar or not. Perhaps > > > someone can find some rules that would help to translate MANY, but not ALL, > > > the self-modifying code. Here I stopped because I was on holidays, far away > > > from a computer and my knowledge about self-modifying code it's bad, well, > > > really very bad. So I think a bit of help now. > > > > My first thoughts were that it wouldn't be possible - you wouldn't know > > whether the bytes being emitted would be data or code. If it was data, > > translating it would be bad. > > > An small bad example that it can work: > > - you know you are self-modifying code because it's a memory access to > a memory address you have already translated > > (code to be modified) > . > . > . > mod_jump: > jmp 0x1000 > . > . > . > > (translation) > . > . > . > xxx: > mov esi,[transmap + 0x1000] > jump esi SpectrEm-DR already does this (although, because it's emulating a simple Z80, it'd do a direct jump to the compiled code representing the code at Z80 address 0x1000) (In fact, that's a lie. It'd load the PC with 0x1000, then ret back to the C code, because it doesn't do inter-block jumps, but if it *did* do them, that's how it would. Confused yet? :) Maybe try thinking of compiling LD BC, 0x1000 instead). The problem with this is that it only really works for immediate values. Anything else has to be handled explicitly. For instance, Jetpac (I think it is) is a Speccy game which has the following line: LD BC,0x0000 (or DE, or something similar) This is periodically modified to read: JMP 0x1000 (wrong address, but you get the idea) It's then flipped back. It's used as a switchable JMP. Any idea how to compile that as self modifying code? (Without recognising it as a unique special case, of course). Contact Sam Spade does LDIR->LDDR and back. That's another one to think about. Arcadia does some simple immediate value self modification. Immediate value modifications are about the only decently sized group of mods that can be generically supported. There's no other way to use a self-modifying method of supporting self-modifying code, without limiting yourself to having to add new code for each new SM game. That's far to constricting, and if you're going to go down that route you might as well drop the dynamic moniker and make it a static compiler. Very fast, but utterly useless for anything beyond unique arcade machine emulation. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 04:07:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01917 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:07:51 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200004281110.NAA02282@sostres.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) In-Reply-To: <00a101bfb0fc$7b078200$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> "from Andrew Davidson at Apr 28, 2000 11:28:22 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:10:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > really works for immediate values. Anything else has to be handled > explicitly. For instance, Jetpac (I think it is) is a Speccy game which has > the following line: > > LD BC,0x0000 (or DE, or something similar) > > This is periodically modified to read: > > JMP 0x1000 (wrong address, but you get the idea) > > It's then flipped back. It's used as a switchable JMP. Any idea how to > compile that as self modifying code? (Without recognising it as a unique > special case, of course). Contact Sam Spade does LDIR->LDDR and back. That's > another one to think about. Arcadia does some simple immediate value self > modification. > Yes. But I have thought about this too. I think this isn't the real problem. Working on your example: mod_address: LD BC, 0x0000/ JMP 0x1000 (in hex, but I don't know the opcode number, just xx and yy) xx 00 00 / yy 00 00 Translation: xor ax,ax mov [bc],ax / mov word [pc],0x1000 jump what_ever Main problem: the translation are a lot differents, and perhaps they don't have the same number of bytes. What's not a problem? The translation of the code that flip the code, it's still some kind of write and you can analize it and translate the bytes are writed and build your self-modifying translation. But how you can handle the difference in size? When you find the code that makes the flip you detect that the size will be different. Then you copy the block (or whatever) that will be modified and use NOPs to make fit with the larger size. The piece of code that generates the smallest translation it's changed to generate NOPs. Ummm ..., a bit confusing. I know that it's hard to do it. I have thought enough about it to see there are a lot of problems. But perhaps there is a solution for many of these problems. Now you can continue discussing about it ;) Or you can wait until next Tuesday when I will have mail access again :(. In any case, I will think about it, although my bad knowledge of self-modifyied code. The main idea it's just to think positively :). How many kinds of self-modifying code there are?, we can build a kind a database of rules for translating them? It's finding hints for translating self-modifying code. I think it makes the effort to think a bit about it. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 04:26:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01949 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:26:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: RRZE In-Reply-To: <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:20:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Below here is where you said "pseudocode". I have to agree. Pascal-like >code is pseudocode. Why do I say that? Well, it's not real code. ;) Hey, only machine code is real code anyway! ;-) >Okay, I'm biased. Mainly because I use Ada all day. :-/ Haven't I heard that complain before? >I compiled it in my Pascal compiler and it didn't work, what can I do? ;p Your Pascal compiler is crap! Visit Niklaus Wirth in Zürich Switzerland to get a better one! >> >> Prolog and Epilog >Aargh! Don't mention Prolog to me. I still have nightmares over that >language. And the worst thing is that I recieved a phone call last night at >around 11:30pm from a friend with a... Prolog problem. Aargh! He means Prologue and Epilogue! But I want to be cruel: Prolog, Prolog, Prolog, Prolog, Prolog, ... >Because of that, I have now come up with the following theory: Prolog = >Satanism. And I thought I wasn't religious! ;-) >> Do you want credit or what? ;-) >I think he wants money for every time it's used. ;) Don't give him hints! >I could translate it to Welsh... but that'd be silly. Why? We could make Welsh the official dynarec documentation language! ;-) >I could translate it to French too - but that'd be stupid. ;) Because the French guys wouldn't understand it anyway? BTW, yesterday I was on some usenet boards again and I really wonder how some people (especially the French ones) can think they should post messages in their mother tongue on an international board! :-( >> "Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly." >Wise advice. A forklift truck would be well advised. A crane might be useful as well. -- M.I.K.e Think of it! With VLSI we can pack 100 ENIACs in 1 sq. cm.! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 04:26:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01958 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:26:17 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: RRZE In-Reply-To: <200004280641.IAA15355@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366508c91ceba_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004280641.IAA15355@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:24:31 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >BTW have you readed my attempt of document? I think I posted it somewhere, >but I can't remember where it was. I think it's not on your homepage... >For a document I like more pseudo-code. Mayhaps... >> >> Paged TransMap >> >I invented the technique !!! >> Do you want credit or what? ;-) >Yes! ;) The productive people on the list will get credit anyway, and this includes the Spice Boys, Andy, and you. >> I don't know about further documents from Apple, maybe you mean the article >> about Virtual PC by Eric Traut. I don't think that it's this useful. >I think it is, but I can't remember about what it was ... I will have to >reread it. That's always useful. I noticed that I have a much better understanding of ARDI's docus now. >> FX!32 is no dynarec but a interpreter with a static binary translator, >>since >> translation is performed after execution and not during runtime >But I think it's still interesting, it has some interesting ideas. I'll see what I can do about that ;-) -- M.I.K.e To err is human, to moo bovine. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 04:26:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01966 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:26:26 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: RRZE In-Reply-To: <39092D72.AB87AE98@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036650639ed676_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <000366305f9e3e24_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39084ECB.6A1B167@eurocopter.de> <000366403ba320b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092D72.AB87AE98@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:13:04 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> I hope that I can add more text than headings in the future... >I think we all do. If I can help at all, just let me know. You can be sure I will! ;-) >Hey, I'm not Welsh. I just live in Wales... and speak Welsh. I was born in >England though. But hey, the majority of my family is Welsh so I can >forgive you. ;) Oh thanks! ;-) >Heh, I've got a truly British name though. My first name is Scottish >(Neil), my second name is English (I'm not telling you!) and my last name >is Welsh. Ok, let's just say you are truly British ;-) BTW, let me guess, your second name is a girls name? ;-) >> >PS "UltraHLE's dirty trick" sounds like something rude and definitely for >> >the over-18s. ;)) >> It is! ;-) >Ah. That'd explain it. ;) Haven't I meantioned that before? -- M.I.K.e You might have mail --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 04:26:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01973 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:26:29 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: DYNAREC: Driving me crazy From: RRZE Message-Id: <0003665059d2c785_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:10:20 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Sorry for any reply delays or that my fortunes might be repeated. This is because I exchanged my 2 DDRS-34560 with 2 DNES-309170 and Partition Magic refused to copy my BeOS partition so I had to install it anew, but I think it was worth the hassle ;-) The first thing I noticed when I received my mail was that I defined the mail filter wrong and all dynarec mails ended up in the "In" box instead of the "DynaRec" box. I didn't even imagine how used I could get to that filtering feature... -- M.I.K.e Familiarity breeds attempt --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 04:27:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA01983 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:27:33 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <010401bfb104$640b2220$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <200004281110.NAA02282@sostres.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:25:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > really works for immediate values. Anything else has to be handled > > explicitly. For instance, Jetpac (I think it is) is a Speccy game which has > > the following line: > > > > LD BC,0x0000 (or DE, or something similar) > > > > This is periodically modified to read: > > > > JMP 0x1000 (wrong address, but you get the idea) > > > > It's then flipped back. It's used as a switchable JMP. Any idea how to > > compile that as self modifying code? (Without recognising it as a unique > > special case, of course). Contact Sam Spade does LDIR->LDDR and back. That's > > another one to think about. Arcadia does some simple immediate value self > > modification. > > > Yes. But I have thought about this too. I think this isn't the real problem. > Working on your example: > > mod_address: > > LD BC, 0x0000/ JMP 0x1000 > > (in hex, but I don't know the opcode number, just xx and yy) > > xx 00 00 / yy 00 00 > > Translation: > > xor ax,ax > mov [bc],ax > / > mov word [pc],0x1000 > jump what_ever > > Main problem: the translation are a lot differents, and perhaps they don't have > the same number of bytes. > > What's not a problem? The translation of the code that flip the code, it's still > some kind of write and you can analize it and translate the bytes are writed and > build your self-modifying translation. But how you can handle the difference in > size? When you find the code that makes the flip you detect that the size will > be different. Then you copy the block (or whatever) that will be modified and > use NOPs to make fit with the larger size. The piece of code that generates the > smallest translation it's changed to generate NOPs. Ummm ..., a bit confusing. I'm not sure I'm following you here. That's just straight forward self-modifying code support, isn't it? You have to recompile the code when the modification is made. I mean, technically, all self-modifying support HAS to be self-modifying, because you're modifying the compiled code at run time. > I know that it's hard to do it. I have thought enough about it to see there are a lot > of problems. But perhaps there is a solution for many of these problems. There are many solutions, and that's the problem. If you support SM code on a mod by mod basis you'll end up with something as limiting as static compilation, which is nice and fast, but not exactly suitable for, say, the emulation of a full home computer system. > Now you can continue discussing about it ;) Or you can wait until next Tuesday when > I will have mail access again :(. All these bank holidays getting in the way, eh? And I so wanted to be at work on Monday, too! ;) > In any case, I will think about it, although my bad knowledge of self-modifyied code. > The main idea it's just to think positively :). How many kinds of self-modifying code > there are?, we can build a kind a database of rules for translating them? > It's finding hints for translating self-modifying code. But for every example you can think of, thousands of past programmers will have thought of thousands of other examples. It really is amazing how devious some of those buggers could be! :) > I think it makes the effort to think a bit about it. I agree with that. It's certainly good to get the brain ticking over. :) > Victor Moya Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 04:54:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA02044 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:54:02 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) From: RRZE In-Reply-To: <200004280833.KAA10987@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036650f73b3b46_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004280833.KAA10987@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:54:21 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I have explained well, or I have confused everybody ;) Totally confused, but that already was my state before I read your message ;- ) >Do you understand what are my thoughts? Yep. You want to simulate self-modifying code by using a dynarec that can modify its generated code. >Do you think it can be done? I think almost everything can be done. >Do you think it comes the effort of study it? I don't think that it's practical: * I guess much code modifying isn't done via a direct but an indirect memory access, which makes it almost impossible to trace. * Even if you can trap self-modification you'd have to scan the code to see which instructions were generated. * Source and target code will have different sizes so you'd have to use a sub -block solution as Andrew did. * You still have to flush caches on the host machine. >Have I made too many questions? ;) Certainly ;-) >Something I'm sure. For an arcade machine emulator, with only a few >games/programs to be executed on it, a modification of this idea it's the >best. What you have to do it's to execute the game, search for self- >modifying code and patch it. In that case you could also write a static binary translator that has a code block for each possible modification and simply jumps to the appropriate one during runtime. >So, what are your thoughts? Without any code research I really don't know if it could be done or not. >I think It's a bit crazy idea, and I'm a bit crazy. Not only you ;-) >But for sure I need help, Medical help? ;-) >I don't know as many code examples as some of you. That refers to the two Neils and Andy I guess, since I wouldn't count me in that case... -- M.I.K.e Keep America beautiful. Swallow your beer cans. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 05:35:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02131 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 05:35:50 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <390984E9.6F37F82F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:32:41 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Driving me crazy References: <0003665059d2c785_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, In case you haven't noticed, your name is now "RRZE". This could be what you want, it could be a mistake. I'm just telling you. :) > The first thing I noticed when I received my mail was that I defined the mail > filter wrong and all dynarec mails ended up in the "In" box instead of the > "DynaRec" box. I didn't even imagine how used I could get to that filtering > feature... I know that feeling well... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 05:40:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02149 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 05:40:30 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39098628.1A71B800@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:38:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <000366305f9e3e24_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39084ECB.6A1B167@eurocopter.de> <000366403ba320b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092D72.AB87AE98@eurocopter.de> <00036650639ed676_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I think we all do. If I can help at all, just let me know. > > You can be sure I will! ;-) Damn, you weren't meant to say that. ;) > >Heh, I've got a truly British name though. My first name is Scottish > >(Neil), my second name is English (I'm not telling you!) and my last name > >is Welsh. > > Ok, let's just say you are truly British ;-) Yep. And I'm no expert on names, but I'm pretty sure that "Bradley" is from Yorkshire (in England), so NB has an English name too. If I'm right, of course. > BTW, let me guess, your second name is a girls name? ;-) It's "Edward". So there. Ha! Anyway, you've got a Jewish name! ;p > You might have mail No, I definitely have mail. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 06:28:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02224 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 06:28:31 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:24:24 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Below here is where you said "pseudocode". I have to agree. Pascal-like > >code is pseudocode. Why do I say that? Well, it's not real code. ;) > > Hey, only machine code is real code anyway! ;-) Yes! Let us revolt and go back to programming in binary digits! > >Okay, I'm biased. Mainly because I use Ada all day. :-/ > > Haven't I heard that complain before? Yes, and I have no doubt that you'll hear it many more times before I leave work. ;) > >I compiled it in my Pascal compiler and it didn't work, what can I do? ;p > > Your Pascal compiler is crap! Visit Niklaus Wirth in Zürich Switzerland to > get a better one! I could do at that. ;) > He means Prologue and Epilogue! Oh, good, that makes me feel better... > But I want to be cruel: Prolog, Prolog, Prolog, Prolog, Prolog, ... AARGH! > >Because of that, I have now come up with the following theory: Prolog = > >Satanism. > > And I thought I wasn't religious! ;-) You worship Prolog! You demonic spawn from hell! ;p > >> Do you want credit or what? ;-) > >I think he wants money for every time it's used. ;) > > Don't give him hints! Too late. Sorry! > >I could translate it to Welsh... but that'd be silly. > > Why? We could make Welsh the official dynarec documentation language! ;-) That's true. It'd be just as understandable. ;p > >I could translate it to French too - but that'd be stupid. ;) > > Because the French guys wouldn't understand it anyway? No, mainly because it was funny to write. :) > BTW, yesterday I was on some usenet boards again and I really wonder how some > people (especially the French ones) can think they should post messages in > their mother tongue on an international board! :-( I don't mind that people do this. But if everyone else is speaking in English then it isn't so polite. But I don't actually think that everyone should learn English. If they do then great. But I do make an effort to learn other languages. I'm not like the average Englishman in that respect... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 06:32:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02257 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 06:32:19 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Driving me crazy From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <390984E9.6F37F82F@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036652414abd0a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003665059d2c785_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <390984E9.6F37F82F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:26:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >In case you haven't noticed, your name is now "RRZE". This could be what >you want, it could be a mistake. I'm just telling you. :) Another guy just mentioned it. I surely shouldn't have set up Mail-It this early in the morning... Should be corrected now. >> >I think we all do. If I can help at all, just let me know. >> You can be sure I will! ;-) >Damn, you weren't meant to say that. ;) So what? ;-) >> Ok, let's just say you are truly British ;-) >Yep. And I'm no expert on names, but I'm pretty sure that "Bradley" is from >Yorkshire (in England), so NB has an English name too. If I'm right, of >course. I might be wrong but I think he mentioned that his parents are from England? >> BTW, let me guess, your second name is a girls name? ;-) >It's "Edward". So there. Ha! Anyway, you've got a Jewish name! ;p That's a Jewish name? I didn't know that. Hey, there even several kings in England with the name Edward! BTW, my second name is Ingo, I'm not sure if that's much better... >> You might have mail >No, I definitely have mail. :) Are you sure? ;-) Maybe AOL even tries to patent that sentence ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Time is an illusion; lunchtime, doubly so. -- Ford Prefect --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 06:45:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02302 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 06:45:29 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:42:40 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes! Let us revolt and go back to programming in binary digits! Oh yes! Do you know that joke: 1st geek: "Back in the good old days we programmed only with ones and zeros." 2nd geek: "Yeah, and sometimes we only had zeros." >> Your Pascal compiler is crap! Visit Niklaus Wirth in Zürich Switzerland to >> get a better one! >I could do at that. ;) Then you know where to go this weekend ;-) >You worship Prolog! You demonic spawn from hell! ;p Hohoho, everybody has to believe in something! ;-) >> Why? We could make Welsh the official dynarec documentation language! ;-) >That's true. It'd be just as understandable. ;p At least for you ;-) But I guess you couldn't translate the important terms anyway... >I don't mind that people do this. Well, it was rather unhelpful when the only review to a book on Amazon was written in Korean and I didn't even have a Hangul font installed :-( >But if everyone else is speaking in >English then it isn't so polite. But I don't actually think that everyone >should learn English. If they do then great. But I do make an effort to >learn other languages. I'm not like the average Englishman in that >respect... Or even the average American! >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Parallel lines never meet, unless you bend one or both of them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 07:51:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA02448 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:51:48 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3909A4F9.4DABD667@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:49:29 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004280641.IAA15355@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366508c91ceba_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > The productive people on the list will get credit anyway, and this includes > the Spice Boys, Andy, and you. Spice Boys. Grr! ;) > To err is human, to moo bovine. Unless the cow in question is British. ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 07:56:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA02463 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:56:41 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3909A605.A844C93@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:53:57 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Driving me crazy References: <0003665059d2c785_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <390984E9.6F37F82F@eurocopter.de> <00036652414abd0a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Another guy just mentioned it. I surely shouldn't have set up Mail-It this > early in the morning... > Should be corrected now. Indeed it is! > >Yep. And I'm no expert on names, but I'm pretty sure that "Bradley" is from > >Yorkshire (in England), so NB has an English name too. If I'm right, of > >course. > > I might be wrong but I think he mentioned that his parents are from England? Possibly, but that means nothing. English people are made up from all countries. France, Germany and the Netherlands mainly! :) > >It's "Edward". So there. Ha! Anyway, you've got a Jewish name! ;p > > That's a Jewish name? I didn't know that. Michael? Sure, it's Jewish. It's in the Bible - there was an Angel called Michael. > Hey, there even several kings in England with the name Edward! Yep. 5 or 6 of them! It's a family name which is why I have it. Not fond of it to be honest... > BTW, my second name is Ingo, I'm not sure if that's much better... Don't know, but that sounds Spanish to me... Never heard of that name before. > Time is an illusion; lunchtime, doubly so. > -- Ford Prefect Taken from a good book - The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 08:25:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02557 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:25:43 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:24:07 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Yes! Let us revolt and go back to programming in binary digits! > > Oh yes! > Do you know that joke: > 1st geek: "Back in the good old days we programmed only with ones and zeros." > 2nd geek: "Yeah, and sometimes we only had zeros." Well, I didn't know that joke. I do now though. :) > >I could do at that. ;) > > Then you know where to go this weekend ;-) Hmm. Maybe I could come and see you this weekend - if it's okay with you. I have no better plans! :) Hang on, that sounds really insulting. I don't mean it like that. :) > >You worship Prolog! You demonic spawn from hell! ;p > > Hohoho, everybody has to believe in something! ;-) C++ is my god. Neil Bradley loves it too. ;)) > >> Why? We could make Welsh the official dynarec documentation language! ;-) > >That's true. It'd be just as understandable. ;p > > At least for you ;-) No, not really. I can speak Welsh, but I'm not great at it. That's by choice as much as anything else... > But I guess you couldn't translate the important terms anyway... They'd be the same. Or similar. > >But if everyone else is speaking in > >English then it isn't so polite. But I don't actually think that everyone > >should learn English. If they do then great. But I do make an effort to > >learn other languages. I'm not like the average Englishman in that > >respect... > > Or even the average American! I think that a lot of Americans can speak Spanish actually. Not sure about any other languages though... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 09:03:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02649 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:03:43 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <00036654777276b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:04:57 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Then you know where to go this weekend ;-) >Hmm. Maybe I could come and see you this weekend - if it's okay with you. I >have no better plans! :) Ahhh! I thought I could free Germany of your presence and then you want to visit me! Maybe I should check with my father first... Clean up some of the mess the last handgranade left in my room... BTW, anything special you have in mind or just talking about dynarecs in person? >Hang on, that sounds really insulting. I don't mean it like that. :) Teasing me again, you bastard! >C++ is my god. How crazy must a god be to have such a weird name!?! >Neil Bradley loves it too. ;)) Don't tell that NB or his wife! ;-) >No, not really. I can speak Welsh, but I'm not great at it. That's by >choice as much as anything else... I guess just like my spoken English... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "The bland leadeth the bland and they both shall fall into the kitsch." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 09:03:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02656 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:03:46 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Driving me crazy From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3909A605.A844C93@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366546431b575_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0003665059d2c785_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <390984E9.6F37F82F@eurocopter.de> <00036652414abd0a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909A605.A844C93@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:59:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yep. 5 or 6 of them! It's a family name which is why I have it. Not fond of >it to be honest... Maybe you just don't want to be called Eddie... >> BTW, my second name is Ingo, I'm not sure if that's much better... >Don't know, but that sounds Spanish to me... Never heard of that name >before. You can ask Victor if it's Spanish, but I only heard it as a German name, although it isn't very common. >> Time is an illusion; lunchtime, doubly so. >> -- Ford Prefect >Taken from a good book - The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy. Sure, who else could be Ford Perfect. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this." -- Emo Phillips --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 09:53:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02764 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:53:46 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3909C162.8AEB0CC2@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:50:43 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> <00036654777276b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Hmm. Maybe I could come and see you this weekend - if it's okay with you. I > >have no better plans! :) > > Ahhh! I thought I could free Germany of your presence and then you want to > visit me! Don't complain, Germany was free of my presence for 6 days last week/this week... ;p > Maybe I should check with my father first... > Clean up some of the mess the last handgranade left in my room... > BTW, anything special you have in mind or just talking about dynarecs in > person? Hadn't thought about it, but talking about dynarecs could be cool. Not sure if I can do it now, though - my friend from Stuttgart may be coming up to visit tomorrow and may stay over until Sunday. I like these short-notice visits. :) > >Hang on, that sounds really insulting. I don't mean it like that. :) > > Teasing me again, you bastard! Jewish name! ;)) > >C++ is my god. > > How crazy must a god be to have such a weird name!?! You think that Prolog is better? :o > >Neil Bradley loves it too. ;)) > > Don't tell that NB or his wife! ;-) You're sick. ;) > >No, not really. I can speak Welsh, but I'm not great at it. That's by > >choice as much as anything else... > > I guess just like my spoken English... You haven't heard my German yet, have you? But my English is quite okay... ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 10:06:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02813 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:06:08 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3909C162.8AEB0CC2@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003665553a36454_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> <00036654777276b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909C162.8AEB0CC2@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:06:31 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Don't complain, Germany was free of my presence for 6 days last week/this >week... ;p It was quite a relief! ;-) >Hadn't thought about it, but talking about dynarecs could be cool. Not sure >if I can do it now, though - my friend from Stuttgart may be coming up to >visit tomorrow and may stay over until Sunday. I like these short-notice >visits. :) Just inform me what you decided to do. >Jewish name! ;)) You cannot tease me with that! >> How crazy must a god be to have such a weird name!?! >You think that Prolog is better? :o At least it's a name without mathematics. >You're sick. ;) Really? ;-) >You haven't heard my German yet, have you? Nope, could be funny! ;-) >But my English is quite okay... >;) I hope so. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Lysistrata had a good idea. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 11:21:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03089 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:21:21 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:21:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <39098628.1A71B800@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > >Heh, I've got a truly British name though. My first name is Scottish > > >(Neil), my second name is English (I'm not telling you!) and my last name > > >is Welsh. > > Ok, let's just say you are truly British ;-) > Yep. And I'm no expert on names, but I'm pretty sure that "Bradley" is from > Yorkshire (in England), so NB has an English name too. If I'm right, of > course. According to my dad, it's Irish. Bradley "broad-lee", or plains people. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 13:58:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03752 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:58:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <004201bfb15c$ba14dbe0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 22:55:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Yep. And I'm no expert on names, but I'm pretty sure that "Bradley" is from > > Yorkshire (in England), so NB has an English name too. If I'm right, of > > course. > > According to my dad, it's Irish. Bradley "broad-lee", or plains people. Ah, Gaelic. I'm no expert on that - though Welsh is a Gaelic language. Well... similar. I don't know much Gaelic. "Tir na nog" or "Land of the young" is about all I know. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 13:58:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03759 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:58:11 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <004101bfb15c$b943d040$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> <00036654777276b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909C162.8AEB0CC2@eurocopter.de> <0003665553a36454_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 22:53:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Don't complain, Germany was free of my presence for 6 days last week/this > >week... ;p > > It was quite a relief! ;-) That's why I went, thought I'd give you guys a break. I mean, you're all just jealous of the amazing British guy (me). ;)))))) > >Hadn't thought about it, but talking about dynarecs could be cool. Not sure > >if I can do it now, though - my friend from Stuttgart may be coming up to > >visit tomorrow and may stay over until Sunday. I like these short-notice > >visits. :) > > Just inform me what you decided to do. Sure thing. I'll let you know tomorrow - if it does happen it'd be Sunday. But that depends on you! > >Jewish name! ;)) > > You cannot tease me with that! Okay. Fine then. You static recompiler, you! ;p > >> How crazy must a god be to have such a weird name!?! > >You think that Prolog is better? :o > > At least it's a name without mathematics. But if "log" means logarythms, then Prolog could mean PROfessional LOGarythms. And then it'd be even worse. ;) > >You're sick. ;) > > Really? ;-) Yes. And I use smilies more than you do. ;) > >You haven't heard my German yet, have you? > > Nope, could be funny! ;-) Hey, mein Deutsch ist nicht *das* schiesse! Nein, mein Deutsh ist sehr gut. Hehehe... Okay, ist nicht das gut. Okay, okay, es ist schiesse. Well, although that may suck, that's pretty good for 14/15 weeks - and no lessons. :) > >But my English is quite okay... > >;) > > I hope so. Thinking about it... I wouldn't bet on it. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 14:20:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03849 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:20:15 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <004101bfb15c$b943d040$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <00036658de837a62_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> <00036654777276b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909C162.8AEB0CC2@eurocopter.de> <0003665553a36454_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004101bfb15c$b943d040$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 23:20:06 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Sure thing. I'll let you know tomorrow - if it does happen it'd be Sunday. >But that depends on you! If you don't expect a sight seeing tour then it's ok. I guess it isn't the weather for sight seeing anyway... >Okay. Fine then. You static recompiler, you! ;p Aw, that's mean! You heap of threaded spaghetti code! >But if "log" means logarythms, then Prolog could mean PROfessional >LOGarythms. And then it'd be even worse. ;) Agreed, but it means PROgramming in LOGic. >Yes. And I use smilies more than you do. ;) That's because you use the more economic version with only two signs! >Hey, mein Deutsch ist nicht *das* schiesse! Nein, mein Deutsh ist sehr gut. >Hehehe... Okay, ist nicht das gut. Okay, okay, es ist schiesse. Syntax is perfect, one spelling error ("Deutsh"), and one translation error: "is not *that* good" has to be "ist nicht *so* gut". >Well, although that may suck, that's pretty good for 14/15 weeks - and no >lessons. :) Yes indeed! I hope you have a dictionary at least... >> >But my English is quite okay... >> I hope so. >Thinking about it... I wouldn't bet on it. :) With us both speaking crappy English a discussion about dynarecs might be very interesting ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "You can bring any calculator you like to the midterm, as long as it doesn't dim the lights when you turn it on." -- Hepler, Systems Design 182 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 14:20:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03857 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:20:16 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <004201bfb15c$ba14dbe0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <00036658e6856774_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <004201bfb15c$ba14dbe0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 23:22:20 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> According to my dad, it's Irish. Bradley "broad-lee", or plains people. >Ah, Gaelic. I'm no expert on that - though Welsh is a Gaelic language. >Well... similar. I don't know much Gaelic. "Tir na nog" or "Land of the >young" is about all I know. :) Ok, my knowledge about Gaelic is as worse as my knowledge about Welsh, but I bet that Welsh isn't a Gaelic language, but both are Celtic languages. How about that? The only thing I know is that "clannad" means "family". >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Sauron is alive in Argentina! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 14:31:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03937 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:31:20 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <006e01bfb161$5b3c8460$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <004201bfb15c$ba14dbe0$0100a8c0@lion> <00036658e6856774_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 23:25:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >> According to my dad, it's Irish. Bradley "broad-lee", or plains people. > >Ah, Gaelic. I'm no expert on that - though Welsh is a Gaelic language. > >Well... similar. I don't know much Gaelic. "Tir na nog" or "Land of the > >young" is about all I know. :) > > Ok, my knowledge about Gaelic is as worse as my knowledge about Welsh, but I > bet that Welsh isn't a Gaelic language, but both are Celtic languages. How > about that? You're right. That's why I changed it to "Well... similar". The languages are quite similar - usually. :) > The only thing I know is that "clannad" means "family". It actually means "clan" - but seeing as a clan usually was a family (a big one usually), this makes sense. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 14:31:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03945 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:31:21 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <006f01bfb161$5c05eee0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> <00036654777276b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909C162.8AEB0CC2@eurocopter.de> <0003665553a36454_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004101bfb15c$b943d040$0100a8c0@lion> <00036658de837a62_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 23:30:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Sure thing. I'll let you know tomorrow - if it does happen it'd be Sunday. > >But that depends on you! > > If you don't expect a sight seeing tour then it's ok. I guess it isn't the > weather for sight seeing anyway... I wouldn't expect that anyway. Although I'm hoping the weather will be nice. The girls in Germany are nice, I've noticed - and especially so when it's hot. ;) > >Okay. Fine then. You static recompiler, you! ;p > > Aw, that's mean! You heap of threaded spaghetti code! You 0110011001001101011 person, you! > >But if "log" means logarythms, then Prolog could mean PROfessional > >LOGarythms. And then it'd be even worse. ;) > > Agreed, but it means PROgramming in LOGic. Haha! Logic. Prolog. Haha! ;)) > >Yes. And I use smilies more than you do. ;) > > That's because you use the more economic version with only two signs! True... > >Hey, mein Deutsch ist nicht *das* schiesse! Nein, mein Deutsh ist sehr gut. > >Hehehe... Okay, ist nicht das gut. Okay, okay, es ist schiesse. > > Syntax is perfect, one spelling error ("Deutsh"), and one translation error: > "is not *that* good" has to be "ist nicht *so* gut". Arse, the spelling mistake was stupid - and caused by me typing at high speed. Oops. The translation error I couldn't help though - didn't know that. I'll remember it though. :) > >Well, although that may suck, that's pretty good for 14/15 weeks - and no > >lessons. :) > > Yes indeed! I hope you have a dictionary at least... Somewhere, I hardly use it. I learn better that way. Only if I'm completely stuck do I go for it... > >Thinking about it... I wouldn't bet on it. :) > > With us both speaking crappy English a discussion about dynarecs might be > very interesting ;-) Heh. Could be, could be. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 14:51:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04018 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:51:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <006f01bfb161$5c05eee0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <0003665953e3ca33_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200004270957.LAA12959@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366405c11e94f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39092F12.3D89B3BB@eurocopter.de> <000366507d426699_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39099108.BFABC9A3@eurocopter.de> <000366527a9669d3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909AD17.9CDABFDC@eurocopter.de> <00036654777276b1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3909C162.8AEB0CC2@eurocopter.de> <0003665553a36454_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <004101bfb15c$b943d040$0100a8c0@lion> <00036658de837a62_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <006f01bfb161$5c05eee0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 23:52:55 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I wouldn't expect that anyway. Good. I just checked that we have 5 bottles of Schlenkerla (great smoke beer from Bamberg) and 2 bottles of Sankt Georgen Keller Bier, which is also very good. You really have to taste these! Oops, this might be interpreted as bribery... >Although I'm hoping the weather will be nice. >The girls in Germany are nice, I've noticed - and especially so when it's >hot. ;) Sometimes, sometimes not. I guess you as a foreigner have a slight bonus. >You 0110011001001101011 person, you! What? You only have 19 bits for me?!? Then you'll deserve only 8 bits, you 00000000! >Haha! Logic. Prolog. Haha! ;)) Well, take first order predicate logic and then change it in a way till it works in Prolog... >Arse, the spelling mistake was stupid - and caused by me typing at high >speed. Aha. >Oops. The translation error I couldn't help though - didn't know >that. I'll remember it though. :) I know where it comes from: "That is not good." = "Das ist nicht gut." "It is not that good." = "Es ist nicht so gut." The both thats are different. In the first case you have a pronoun and in the second case it has an exagerating purpose, I think it's a particle. >> Yes indeed! I hope you have a dictionary at least... >Somewhere, I hardly use it. I learn better that way. Only if I'm completely >stuck do I go for it... I have to admit that I have a dictionary left beside me, but I'm often too lazy to check the words because I noticed that in 90% my first guess is right anyway. That was somewhat different a few years ago though. If you can learn a new language that way it is fine because you also learn how to use the word and not only the word itself. But I guess that method wouldn't work for me. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Sauron is alive in Argentina! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri Apr 28 14:54:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04037 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:54:50 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <006e01bfb161$5b3c8460$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <0003665961c778a1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <004201bfb15c$ba14dbe0$0100a8c0@lion> <00036658e6856774_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <006e01bfb161$5b3c8460$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 23:56:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> The only thing I know is that "clannad" means "family". >It actually means "clan" - but seeing as a clan usually was a family (a big >one usually), this makes sense. :) I thought that "clan" is a Scottish term. BTW, do you know any Scots? I noticed that knowing a bit of Scots can help British speakers with German because of the pronunciation of "night" like German "ich" or "loch" just like the German counterpart. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e First Law of Procrastination: Procrastination shortens the job and places the responsibility for its termination on someone else (i.e., the authority who imposed the deadline). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 30 08:06:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12313 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 08:06:34 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <0003667b1142014a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:08:06 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com, DavidSharp@ThePentagon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, I've updated the DynaRec FAQ again... Comments and additions are still welcome... http://www.linguistik.uni-erlangen.de/~mlkoenig/drfaq.html -- M.I.K.e "The voters have spoken, the bastards ..." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 30 14:54:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13353 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:54:00 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: DYNAREC: Hungarian? From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <000366819c453f40_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:56:28 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Does anyone on the list understand Hungarian? http://www.dynarec.hu -- M.I.K.e Maybe you can't buy happiness, but these days you can certainly charge it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 30 16:36:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA13669 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:36:03 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:39:07 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: More ARM emulation Message-ID: <20000501003906.A10117@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, If anyone'd like more information about my ARM emulator, my project dissertation is now online (not sure if it's in the rules for it to be, but whatever really). There's (possibly) more technical detail there than in most of the commonly-available free DR documents (it's probably pushing 12,000 words now), though it's written in the style required by my examiners, so areas might be quite heavily fabricated/egotistical/ nonsensical/etc... Of course, if you read it and find any glaring technical errors (or even speling+grammer), I'd like to know before I submit it - I have a few weeks yet... ;-) Enjoy, Jules Oh yeah, the URL is: http://jtb20.quns.cam.ac.uk/diss.ps Hope it works this time ;-) -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun Apr 30 18:38:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA14047 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:38:49 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: More ARM emulation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <20000501003906.A10117@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <00036684b8bd217b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20000501003906.A10117@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 03:39:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >If anyone'd like more information about my ARM emulator, my project >dissertation is now online (not sure if it's in the rules for it to be, >but whatever really). There's (possibly) more technical detail there than >in most of the commonly-available free DR documents (it's probably pushing >12,000 words now), though it's written in the style required by my >examiners, so areas might be quite heavily fabricated/egotistical/ >nonsensical/etc... I will take a closer look. >Of course, if you read it and find any glaring technical errors (or even >speling+grammer), I'd like to know before I submit it - I have a few weeks >yet... ;-) I hope that I don't find too many errors ;-) > http://jtb20.quns.cam.ac.uk/diss.ps >Hope it works this time ;-) It worked! BTW, it's quite funny to see the URL of the page I wrote mentioned is such a document ;-) -- M.I.K.e Those who in quarrels interpose, must often wipe a bloody nose. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 1 23:13:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19754 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:13:48 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005020617.IAA08212@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Driving me crazy In-Reply-To: <000366546431b575_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at Apr 28, 2000 05:59:34 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:17:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >> BTW, my second name is Ingo, I'm not sure if that's much better... > >Don't know, but that sounds Spanish to me... Never heard of that name > >before. > > You can ask Victor if it's Spanish, but I only heard it as a German name, > although it isn't very common. > Never heared about it. It doesn't sound Spanish for sure. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 1 23:43:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19806 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:43:58 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005020647.IAA08466@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <0003667b1142014a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at Apr 30, 2000 04:08:06 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:47:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > I've updated the DynaRec FAQ again... > Comments and additions are still welcome... > > http://www.linguistik.uni-erlangen.de/~mlkoenig/drfaq.html > Damn it! I have already translated the old version. ;) BTW some comments about the old version: - Basic block it's already a well defined term. It's just a block that it has only one entry point(the start of the block) and only one exit point (the end of the block). There is also an algorithm for calculate basic blocks, but it won't, easily, work with dynarec, perhaps with static compilation. There is no discussion about that, just see Aho and Ullman or another compiler theory book. - Why do you say the main problem with static compilation is self-modifying code?. It is just one of the problems (and not the worst because not all programs have self-modifying code). The main problem with static compilation is how to determine what it's code and what it's data. Mainly because of indirect jumps and jump tables. - You say a dynarec can't implement compiler theory optimizations but I think that isn't probed, it depends upon your implementation. I can't agree with that, perhaps could be better say that usually dynarec don't implement as many optimization techniques as static compilers. - I can't see why zero register are so important, just another processors feature you have to translated ... Oh, well, just some comments. I like your document, what I don't like it's my Spanish translation still seems something translated from English. ;) > "The voters have spoken, the bastards ..." > You are getting out of ideas? ;) I have seen it twice. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 1 23:55:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19837 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:55:38 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005020659.IAA08926@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: Old discussions In-Reply-To: <0003665961c778a1_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at Apr 28, 2000 11:56:48 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:59:10 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I was reading last weekend the emu-mech doc. It's a collection of a discussion about emulation in an old amiga newsgroup. It's quite old, from 1991 (I was still with my old 8086 just knowing nothing more than some Basic), but it's still interesting. I found a new term for Neil: transpiler. It's the name they found for static compilation. There is also some comments explaining the problems about static compilation. It seems they didn't know about dynamic compilation. When wer ARDI's or SHADE implemented? There is also some interesting examples about threaded interpreters implementation. I wonder how many times have been discussed those subjects out there ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 00:07:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA19874 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:07:20 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <390E7DB4.1D5BAF76@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:03:16 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Driving me crazy References: <200005020617.IAA08212@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > You can ask Victor if it's Spanish, but I only heard it as a German name, > > although it isn't very common. > > > Never heared about it. It doesn't sound Spanish for sure. Ah, now I know where it came from. And even then it's not Spanish. And that doesn't matter because it wasn't the same anyway! Nope, I was thinking of Mexico - and what you hear in a lot of the old movies. You know, "Hey, Gringo!". Heh, not quite the same... :)) Ooh, well I managed exactly 0% of the emu-related stuff I planned for this weekend. My friend decided to stay until Monday and so I didn't get anything done that I wanted to. Arse! Oh well, at least I've introduced him to the wonders(!) of emulation. Yep, classic arcade games, old C64 games - and Amiga games. Not too keen on the Amiga myself, but he had one for years and was very impressed to see one or two of his old favourite games. He didn't know about emulation - so that shows he doesn't read the media. :) Ah well, another convert. At least I'm here to stop him becoming a l4m3r. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 00:10:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA19922 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:10:35 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <390E7EB6.D9294BBD@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:07:34 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Old discussions References: <200005020659.IAA08926@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I found a new term for Neil: transpiler. It's the name they found for static > compilation. Ohmygod! I actually can *remember* that term! Yep, I've heard it before! :o Translator and compiler = transpiler. Heh, memories... :) > There is also some comments explaining the problems about static compilation. > It seems they didn't know about dynamic compilation. When wer ARDI's or SHADE > implemented? Executor... Hmm, I know I saw it around '96/'97. Well, my memory tells me I did anyway. :)) > There is also some interesting examples about threaded interpreters > implementation. Cool. Got a link for that documentation? Old, but could be worth a laugh - I mean read. ;) > I wonder how many times have been discussed those subjects out there ... I don't know, but hopefully we're on the forefront of this technology... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 00:24:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA19967 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:24:42 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005020727.JAA31381@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Old discussions In-Reply-To: <390E7EB6.D9294BBD@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 2, 2000 09:07:34 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:27:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > > I found a new term for Neil: transpiler. It's the name they found for static > > compilation. > > Ohmygod! I actually can *remember* that term! Yep, I've heard it before! :o > > Translator and compiler = transpiler. Heh, memories... :) > What a good memory!!! If I only could have this kind of memory :( > > There is also some comments explaining the problems about static compilation. > > It seems they didn't know about dynamic compilation. When wer ARDI's or SHADE > > implemented? > > Executor... Hmm, I know I saw it around '96/'97. Well, my memory tells me I > did anyway. :)) > I was thinking about when was the first time dynamic compilation was implemented. > > There is also some interesting examples about threaded interpreters > > implementation. > > Cool. Got a link for that documentation? Old, but could be worth a laugh - > I mean read. ;) > I can't remember where I found it, I will put it somewhere or I will post it to you if you are interested. I thought It was on Dan Boris Page, but it isn't. I found this document a year or two ago. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 00:39:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA20012 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:39:59 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <390E8577.7057E929@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:36:23 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Old discussions References: <200005020727.JAA31381@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Translator and compiler = transpiler. Heh, memories... :) > > > What a good memory!!! If I only could have this kind of memory :( Hey, my memory isn't *that* good. If it was, I'd have remembered the term before! :o > > Executor... Hmm, I know I saw it around '96/'97. Well, my memory tells me I > > did anyway. :)) > > > I was thinking about when was the first time dynamic compilation was > implemented. Hmm. Is Executor a dynamic compiler? I don't know about the CPU, but the rest of it seems to be a high-level emulation. Well, it emulates the OS... > > Cool. Got a link for that documentation? Old, but could be worth a laugh - > > I mean read. ;) > > > I can't remember where I found it, I will put it somewhere or I will post it to > you if you are interested. Yes, that could be good. :) > I thought It was on Dan Boris Page, but it isn't. I found this document a year > or two ago. I don't think I've read it, but we'll see. I was never really into Amiga's so I doubt it... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 00:47:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA20057 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:47:18 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005020750.JAA13311@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Old discussions In-Reply-To: <390E8577.7057E929@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 2, 2000 09:36:23 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:50:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Executor... Hmm, I know I saw it around '96/'97. Well, my memory tells me I > > > did anyway. :)) > > > > > I was thinking about when was the first time dynamic compilation was > > implemented. > > Hmm. Is Executor a dynamic compiler? I don't know about the CPU, but the > rest of it seems to be a high-level emulation. Well, it emulates the OS... > It has some dynamic compiling and also some threaded code. > > I thought It was on Dan Boris Page, but it isn't. I found this document a year > > or two ago. > > I don't think I've read it, but we'll see. I was never really into Amiga's > so I doubt it... > Neither I was. I found it searching for emulation docs so I think it must be in a well known emulation page, but I can't remember it. This document it's like the comp.emulation.misc (c.e.m.) FAQ, an old document about emulation, perhaps they are in the same site ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 01:15:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20149 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:15:42 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005020818.KAA10740@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) In-Reply-To: <00036650f73b3b46_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from RRZE at Apr 28, 2000 01:54:21 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:18:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Yep. You want to simulate self-modifying code by using a dynarec that can > modify its generated code. > I think it's more a dynarec that produces self-modifying translations. > I don't think that it's practical: > * I guess much code modifying isn't done via a direct but an indirect memory > access, which makes it almost impossible to trace. Some of the worst problems I have found. About indirect memory access and memory maps I thought something too. > * Even if you can trap self-modification you'd have to scan the code to see > which instructions were generated. You realize it from the bytes writed. > * You still have to flush caches on the host machine. > I think I'm too x86 based ;) I don't think in other CPUs cache problems. I think I must work more this idea before talk more about it. > >Something I'm sure. For an arcade machine emulator, with only a few > >games/programs to be executed on it, a modification of this idea it's the > >best. What you have to do it's to execute the game, search for self- > >modifying code and patch it. > > In that case you could also write a static binary translator that has a code > block for each possible modification and simply jumps to the appropriate one > during runtime. > Perhaps, but static translator have another problems, as indirect jumps. Also has some legal problems, It's better you don't release a translated version of a game. Now I think that if you want static translation you can implement it for arcade machines with only a few games, but you must provide to the static compiler all the information needed (something like a feedback file, i'm using this in Dixie, where I work) to build a full translation from the ROMS. Something I readed on Crusoe: using the MMU hardware to write protect translated pages, so detect self-modifying code is easily handled by hardware. Can it be done in Windows? I'm sure some UNIX OS provide this kind of capabilities. A new game: a say the name of a technique and you tell what the technique is. :)) For example: - delayed translations - speculative translations - delayed address translation - speculative address translation The names are wonderful, aren't they?. But I think they are a bit empty, why not to search a technique for this names? Increasing my madness level ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 04:14:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA20660 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 04:14:33 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Old discussions From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005020659.IAA08926@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366a0a749143a_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005020659.IAA08926@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:58:37 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I was reading last weekend the emu-mech doc. It's a collection of a >discussion >about emulation in an old amiga newsgroup. It's quite old, from 1991 (I was >still with my old 8086 just knowing nothing more than some Basic), but it's >still interesting. Is that nostalgia-nostalgia? ;-) >I found a new term for Neil: transpiler. It's the name they found for static >compilation. Sounds a bit like transputer... >There is also some comments explaining the problems about static compilation. >It seems they didn't know about dynamic compilation. When wer ARDI's or >SHADE implemented? Shade is from about 93/94, Executor slightly later (maybe 95?). Static recompilation is quite old, the first threaded interpreter could be Mimic (1987). >There is also some interesting examples about threaded interpreters >implementation. Any chance that I can read that article? >I wonder how many times have been discussed those subjects out there ... Probably not too often, at least not with our background ;-) -- M.I.K.e Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 04:14:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA20669 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 04:14:35 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005020647.IAA08466@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366a08ef3fa14_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005020647.IAA08466@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:51:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> I've updated the DynaRec FAQ again... >Damn it! I have already translated the old version. ;) I've warned you ;-) >BTW some comments about the old version: Ah, the first comments ;-) > - Basic block it's already a well defined term. It's just a block that > it has only one entry point(the start of the block) and only one exit > point (the end of the block). There is also an algorithm for calculate > basic blocks, but it won't, easily, work with dynarec, perhaps with > static compilation. There is no discussion about that, just see Aho and > Ullman or another compiler theory book. Did I write anything different? I know it's a typical compiler theory term, but even there I've read more than one definition. > - Why do you say the main problem with static compilation is self-modifying > code?. It is just one of the problems (and not the worst because not all > programs have self-modifying code). The main problem with static > compilation is how to determine what it's code and what it's data. Mainly > because of indirect jumps and jump tables. Oops, forgot about indirect jumps, thanks for the hint! > - You say a dynarec can't implement compiler theory optimizations but I >think > that isn't probed, it depends upon your implementation. I can't agree >with > that, perhaps could be better say that usually dynarec don't implement > as many optimization techniques as static compilers. The problem is that we work with flat code, and almost all compiler optimiastion methods work on trees and graphs. If you want to use these you have to build a tree first, perform optimisations, and flatten out the code again. I bet that my "second chance" register allocation is a thousand times faster than the typical graph colouring algorithm. Even ARDI mention that they didn't use traditional methods because it would be too slow, and FX!32 can only utilize this methods because it has a profiler. > - I can't see why zero register are so important, just another processors > feature you have to translated ... Agreed, but given the fact that so many MIPS dynarecs don't implement it, I thought I had to mention it. >Oh, well, just some comments. I like your document, what I don't like it's >my Spanish translation still seems something translated from English. ;) I couldn't judge that anyway ;-) >> "The voters have spoken, the bastards ..." >You are getting out of ideas? ;) I have seen it twice. Nope, I've reinstalled my system, so it probably started from the beginning again... -- M.I.K.e I didn't like the play, but I saw it under adverse conditions. The curtain was up. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 04:14:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA20676 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 04:14:36 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Driving me crazy From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <390E7DB4.1D5BAF76@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366a0ac06d361_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005020617.IAA08212@pons.ac.upc.es> <390E7DB4.1D5BAF76@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:59:57 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Ooh, well I managed exactly 0% of the emu-related stuff I planned for this >weekend. My friend decided to stay until Monday and so I didn't get >anything done that I wanted to. Arse! Oh well, at least I've introduced him >to the wonders(!) of emulation. Yep, classic arcade games, old C64 games - >and Amiga games. Not too keen on the Amiga myself, but he had one for years >and was very impressed to see one or two of his old favourite games. He >didn't know about emulation - so that shows he doesn't read the media. :) >Ah well, another convert. At least I'm here to stop him becoming a l4m3r. >:)) Missonary Neil? Now I know why you didn't have time to reply to my last message... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e When we understand knowledge-based systems, it will be as before -- except our fingertips will have been singed. -- Epigrams in Programming, ACM SIGPLAN Sept. 1982 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 04:14:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA20683 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 04:14:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005020818.KAA10740@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366a0e199d031_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005020818.KAA10740@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:14:55 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I think it's more a dynarec that produces self-modifying translations. Sounded a bit like tricks for static recompilation for me, maybe you got influenced by your university work? ;-) >> * Even if you can trap self-modification you'd have to scan the code to see >> which instructions were generated. >You realize it from the bytes writed. What I meant is that some instructions need more than one store to be written and other stores might write two instructions, the whole process could be even out of order. Unless you have a very complicated mechanism to trace all writes you'll have to rescan the block for changes anyway. >> * You still have to flush caches on the host machine. >I think I'm too x86 based ;) I don't think in other CPUs cache problems. Even IA-32 flushes the caches but it does that in hardware and automatically. >Something I readed on Crusoe: using the MMU hardware to write protect >translated >pages, so detect self-modifying code is easily handled by hardware. Can it >be done in Windows? I'm sure some UNIX OS provide this kind of capabilities. I think I mentioned that technique somewhen earlier on the list, although I got inspiered by some techniques used on MIPS processors. To answer your question, it is possible on any CPU that can write protect pages, but that's down to system level, so your emulator has to be somewhat like an operating system. >A new game: a say the name of a technique and you tell what the technique is. >:)) What can the candidates win? A totally free brain damage? ;-) > - delayed translations Sounds a bit like a compiler technique for functional languages with lazy evaluation. > - speculative translations Jump targets are translated although it isn't clear yet that they will be executed or not. Only slows down the recompiler. > - delayed address translation Erm, no idea. > - speculative address translation Sounds like a speed-up for indirect addressing. >The names are wonderful, aren't they?. But I think they are a bit empty, why >not to search a technique for this names? Your turn ;-) >Increasing my madness level ;) I wouldn't have thought that this is possible, but it is indeed! ;-) >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Don't worry about avoiding temptation -- as you grow older, it starts avoiding you. -- The Old Farmer's Almanac --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 2 04:14:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA20690 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 04:14:48 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Old discussions From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <390E8577.7057E929@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366a0b5adb451_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005020727.JAA31381@pons.ac.upc.es> <390E8577.7057E929@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:02:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Hmm. Is Executor a dynamic compiler? I don't know about the CPU, but the >rest of it seems to be a high-level emulation. Well, it emulates the OS... It's even a dynamic REcompiler ;-) Actually they first produce threaded code and after some runs (I guess I read 50 times) they translate to native code on selected architectures, which is still only x86 I think. >I don't think I've read it, but we'll see. I was never really into Amiga's >so I doubt it... Me neither... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Ass, n.: The masculine of "lass". --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 00:38:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24681 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 00:38:06 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <017101bfb4d2$57121d40$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 09:36:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Did I write anything different? >I know it's a typical compiler theory term, but even there I've read more >than one definition. > More than one definition? Are you sure? >> - You say a dynarec can't implement compiler theory optimizations but I >>think >> that isn't probed, it depends upon your implementation. I can't agree >>with >> that, perhaps could be better say that usually dynarec don't implement >> as many optimization techniques as static compilers. > >The problem is that we work with flat code, and almost all compiler >optimiastion methods work on trees and graphs. If you want to use these you >have to build a tree first, perform optimisations, and flatten out the code >again. Do you have readed Julian dissertion? Cruose Code Morpher also talks about compiler theory optimizations, but I think it´s a bad exampe. >>Oh, well, just some comments. I like your document, what I don't like it's >>my Spanish translation still seems something translated from English. ;) > >I couldn't judge that anyway ;-) > BTW the actual translation it´s at : http://alabi.fib.upc.es/~e6706591 But I can´t think in anyone interested on that ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 00:41:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24698 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 00:41:25 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <018601bfb4d2$c190fe20$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Old discussions Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 09:39:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Any chance that I can read that article? > Yesterday I forgot that I have many of the emulation and dynamic compilation docs I have at my "page": http://alabi.fib.upc.es/~e6706591 Just download the emuinfo.zip and search for a file named "emumech.txt" or something like this. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 01:04:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24772 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:04:36 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <01a301bfb4d5$f323b2e0$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:02:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >>I think it's more a dynarec that produces self-modifying translations. > >Sounded a bit like tricks for static recompilation for me, maybe you got >influenced by your university work? ;-) > In my work we don´t use any kind of trick ;) Or I hope so :o But yes this is the idea, a lot of tricks :) >I think I mentioned that technique somewhen earlier on the list, although I >got inspiered by some techniques used on MIPS processors. >To answer your question, it is possible on any CPU that can write protect >pages, but that's down to system level, so your emulator has to be somewhat >like an operating system. > I think that use the MMU could improve a lot the test for self-modifying code, it's the hardware who actually looks for writes, that it´s the worst about detecting self-modifying code, and the overhead involved to page write faults will be still better than the overhead of testing all memory writes. >>A new game: a say the name of a technique and you tell what the technique >is. >>:)) > >What can the candidates win? A totally free brain damage? ;-) > What do you want to win? Secret dynarec techniques that I (don´t) know about? >> - delayed translations > >Sounds a bit like a compiler technique for functional languages with lazy >evaluation. > I think I would be better I would called it "deferred translation". My first thought about it is to wait until you know everything before perform a translation. You put a fallback at the code and when it´s executed you perform the translation. I don´t know if can be useful. For example could be used with indirect jumps, many times indirect jumps uses ever the same jump address but it´s hard to discover the address. >> - speculative translations > >Jump targets are translated although it isn't clear yet that they will be >executed or not. Only slows down the recompiler. > Probably. Other approach could be translate something you aren´t still sure what it is. >> - delayed address translation > >Erm, no idea. > The same of above? Wait until an indirect addressing it´s executed and then write it to the translation (self-modifying code ;) and hope the indirect addressing isn´t variable. >> - speculative address translation > >Sounds like a speed-up for indirect addressing. > It´s the main idea yes. >>The names are wonderful, aren't they?. But I think they are a bit empty, >why >>not to search a technique for this names? > >Your turn ;-) > No I just say the names, you have to tell the technique ;) >>Increasing my madness level ;) > >I wouldn't have thought that this is possible, but it is indeed! ;-) > Ha!!, you still don´t know as crazy I am ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 01:33:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA24937 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:33:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: RE: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <017101bfb4d2$57121d40$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366b2bd5ef72f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <017101bfb4d2$57121d40$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 10:33:17 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >More than one definition? Are you sure? Taken from "The Theory and Practice of Compiler Writing": "The basic block is a program fragment that has only one entry point and whose transfer mechanism between statements is that of proceeding to the next statement. An alternative definition (Gries, 1971) states that a basic block is a sequence of program statements organized in such a way that all transfers to the block are to the first statement in the block. Also if any statment in the block is executed, all statements in the block are executed." Acording to both definitions NB doesn't work with basic blocks and the term translation unit might be better. >Do you have readed Julian dissertion? Only the first two chapters and a part of chapter three yet, but from browsing through it I don't think that he's using any traditional optimisation techinques. >Cruose Code Morpher also talks about >compiler theory optimizations, but I think it´s a bad exampe. They touch many topics without explaining how they solved the problems... Maybe I should read the patent script, looks a bit better... >BTW the actual translation it´s at : > http://alabi.fib.upc.es/~e6706591 >But I can´t think in anyone interested on that ;) Well, I took a brief look and at looks Spanish at least ;-) It seems you had problems to translate the word "catchy". I hope I took the right English term. What I meant are short, recognizable terms that exactly hit the point. BTW, are you satisfied with the credits? >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Avoid reality at all costs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 01:53:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA25021 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:53:48 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <000366b2bd5ef72f_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at May 3, 2000 10:33:17 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:56:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pons.ac.upc.es id KAA06680 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id BAA25018 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >More than one definition? Are you sure? > > Taken from "The Theory and Practice of Compiler Writing": > "The basic block is a program fragment that has only one entry point and > whose transfer mechanism between statements is that of proceeding to the next > statement. An alternative definition (Gries, 1971) states that a basic block > is a sequence of program statements organized in such a way that all > transfers to the block are to the first statement in the block. Also if any > statment in the block is executed, all statements in the block are executed." > I can see the difference (but perhaps it's my english). What it's happenning is that defining a basic block it's something difficult (the better choice for me is just to show the algorithm for obtaining them) and the authors are confusing everyone ;) But there is only one definition of basic block, I'm sure. > Acording to both definitions NB doesn't work with basic blocks and the term > translation unit might be better. > I don't think any dynarec use real basic blocks (because the effort of be sure that it's a BB is too big). And I also think "translation unit" it's a better term. I used it on my document (spanish version only). I also use a term "lazy basic blocks" (or something like this) referring to the usual basic blocks used in dynarec, because you are not sure if they are real basic blocks. If you are insterested I could translate this section of my doc. > >Do you have readed Julian dissertion? > > Only the first two chapters and a part of chapter three yet, but from > browsing through it I don't think that he's using any traditional > optimisation techinques. > I spent two or three hours yesterday afternoon doing a quick reading of it. I think he has now more knowledge than some of the people it's talking in this list. Too many theoricians in the list I think ;) (And I'm the first). He really doesn't use any optimisation techniques (but some deadcode and flag evaluation supression) but he uses many tree like structures and the phetacode and I think it could be easy (well, not so easy) to implement some of this optimizations. He talks about it as a continuation of the project but I know it is something university professors wants to listen ;) > >Cruose Code Morpher also talks about > >compiler theory optimizations, but I think it´s a bad exampe. > > They touch many topics without explaining how they solved the problems... > Maybe I should read the patent script, looks a bit better... > Oh, there is another document about Crusoe? I have missed it. > Well, I took a brief look and at looks Spanish at least ;-) > It seems you had problems to translate the word "catchy". I hope I took the > right English term. What I meant are short, recognizable terms that exactly > hit the point. I used the translation I found in my english-to-spanish dictionary, but I think it has to be a better translation. And yes I understand what you mean with catchy. > BTW, are you satisfied with the credits? > Yes I like them a lot :))) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 03:06:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA25475 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 03:06:12 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 12:07:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I can see the difference (but perhaps it's my english). What it's happenning >is that defining a basic block it's something difficult (the better choice >for >me is just to show the algorithm for obtaining them) and the authors are >confusing everyone ;) Yeah, a better definition might be: it's a block of sequential code with an entry point in the beginning. >I don't think any dynarec use real basic blocks (because the effort of be >sure that it's a BB is too big). True, you can never be sure that you found a real basic block. >And I also think "translation unit" it's a better term. It tells more what it really is and you're still enough freedom to decide how large it shall be. >If you are insterested I could translate this section of my doc. Only if it's not too much work for you, but I guess we share the same idea anyway. >I spent two or three hours yesterday afternoon doing a quick reading of it. >I think he has now more knowledge than some of the people it's talking in >this list. Too many theoricians in the list I think ;) (And I'm the first). Someone who wrote his own dynarec surely knows more about many aspects of this method, but we might have a better overview after all the discussions we had. I also found some slight errors in the first chapter: * The 640k limit is formed by DOS and not the 8086. But the 8086 has the lovely 64k segments. * Generator isn't much of a dynarec but more threaded code, but it took me a while to realize that. >He really doesn't use any optimisation techniques (but some deadcode and flag >evaluation supression) Flag reduction for ARM emulation is quite easy because the took over a feature from Berkeley-RISC (later SPARC) that condition flags are only calculated when a special bit in the instruction is set. I think he has an example with the instruction "addlts", which means: add if less than and set flags. >but he uses many tree like structures and the phetacode >and I think it could be easy (well, not so easy) to implement some of this >optimizations. As far as I can see he only uses the tree-like structures for the matching templates but the intermediate representation (the phetacode) is still linear. >He talks about it as a continuation of the project but I know >it is something university professors wants to listen ;) We'll see ;-) >Oh, there is another document about Crusoe? I have missed it. This is the patent for Crusoe: http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/ search-adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=curr&S1=transmeta.ASNM.&OS=an/transmeta&RS= AN/transmeta >I used the translation I found in my english-to-spanish dictionary, but I >think it has to be a better translation. Dictionaries are often too much out of context :-( >And yes I understand what you mean with catchy. Good, it seems that I picked the right term then- >> BTW, are you satisfied with the credits? >Yes I like them a lot :))) Good. I thought simply listing you and the others would be a bit lame so I added a small characterization. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes. -- Dr. Warren Jackson, Director, UTCS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 03:22:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA25510 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 03:22:26 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005031022.MAA08932@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: More ARM emulation In-Reply-To: <20000501003906.A10117@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> "from Julian Brown at May 1, 2000 00:39:07 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:22:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hi, > > If anyone'd like more information about my ARM emulator, my project > dissertation is now online (not sure if it's in the rules for it to be, > but whatever really). There's (possibly) more technical detail there than > in most of the commonly-available free DR documents (it's probably pushing > 12,000 words now), though it's written in the style required by my > examiners, so areas might be quite heavily fabricated/egotistical/ > nonsensical/etc... > > Of course, if you read it and find any glaring technical errors (or even > speling+grammer), I'd like to know before I submit it - I have a few weeks > yet... ;-) > > Enjoy, > For sure. I readed it yesterday afternoon. Perhaps a too quick reading. My comments: - I like you talk about Turing and Turing Universal Machine. I thought talk about that in my own dissertation, too. It seems I'm not the only one who relates emulation with universal machines ;) - A small fault, you are using ugly AT x86 asm conventions ;) - a good feature, you use pascal like pseudocode :) More seriously. Your approach to dynarec it's the kind of theorical approach MIKE and me started also, something different than Neil Bradley ideas. When do you subscribed to the list? I think it would be interesting for you to know the new approach Neil is using (if you don't know it already), perhaps it will be better when you have more free time ;) You use an interpreter+profiler+translator approach. It makes me think that a new classification must be added to dynarec. Dynarecs based in an interpreter/profiler with translation of more often executed blocks approach, and full dynarecs which always build a translation and they don't use an interpreter. Your approach I think is as used (or perhaps more used) as the second one. Perhaps FX!32 implements something similar, Crusoe Code Morpher seems (but who can be sure about it) to work also in a similar way. More info to Neil Griffiths classification doc ;) I like the rule and tree matching approach to code generation/translation. The full document it's very interesting and it's more useful than all other dynarec docs in aspects like code generation, intermediate representation, etc. I can't see any mistake, if this helps you ;) I think you have now a better knowledge about dynarec than some other people on the list. People who talks too much about theory without real experience perhaps, me perhaps :o And if you already know Neil's method you are a real dynarec expert ;) Umm, perhaps there is something more to say, but I can't just remember ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 03:29:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA25523 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 03:29:07 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005031031.MAA09058@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at May 3, 2000 12:07:05 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:31:33 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I can see the difference (but perhaps it's my english). What it's > happenning > >is that defining a basic block it's something difficult (the better choice > >for > >me is just to show the algorithm for obtaining them) and the authors are > >confusing everyone ;) > > Yeah, a better definition might be: it's a block of sequential code with an > entry point in the beginning. > Perhaps: a block of sequentially executed code with only an entry point. Meaning that the full block it's always executed. > >And I also think "translation unit" it's a better term. > > It tells more what it really is and you're still enough freedom to decide how > large it shall be. > Agreed. > >I spent two or three hours yesterday afternoon doing a quick reading of it. > >I think he has now more knowledge than some of the people it's talking in > >this list. Too many theoricians in the list I think ;) (And I'm the first). > > Someone who wrote his own dynarec surely knows more about many aspects of > this method, but we might have a better overview after all the discussions we > had. > I also found some slight errors in the first chapter: > * The 640k limit is formed by DOS and not the 8086. But the 8086 has the > lovely 64k segments. As DOS it's almost the only OS for 8086 it isn't a great mistake. I don't think his professors pay attention to this. > * Generator isn't much of a dynarec but more threaded code, but it took me a > while to realize that. > The Generator doc it's really bad related to the "dynamic recompilation" implementation chapter. > >Oh, there is another document about Crusoe? I have missed it. > > This is the patent for Crusoe: > > http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/ > search-adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=curr&S1=transmeta.ASNM.&OS=an/transmeta&RS= > AN/transmeta > I have already downloaded it. I just went to your dynarec page at Acorn Emulation Page. > >> BTW, are you satisfied with the credits? > >Yes I like them a lot :))) > > Good. I thought simply listing you and the others would be a bit lame so I > added a small characterization. > Indeed. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 05:31:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA25732 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 05:31:12 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: More ARM emulation From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005031022.MAA08932@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366b5fcffacc9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005031022.MAA08932@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 14:25:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >You use an interpreter+profiler+translator approach. It makes me think that >a new classification must be added to dynarec. Dynarecs based in an >interpreter/profiler with translation of more often executed blocks approach, >and full dynarecs which always build a translation and they don't use an >interpreter. Your approach I think is as used (or perhaps more used) as the >second one. It's similar to Executor, only that Syn68k uses threaded code for interpretation and ARMphetamine seems to have a normal interpretive emulator. >Perhaps FX!32 implements something similar, Yes, but translation is done after the application was terminated. >Crusoe Code Morpher >seems (but who can be sure about it) to work also in a similar way. They always translated the code (like NB) but when it's executed often it is optimised further. > More info >to Neil Griffiths classification doc ;) If he ever writes it ;-) >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent. -- Walt Kelly --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 05:31:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA25738 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 05:31:13 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Self-modifying code, a new approach ;) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <01a301bfb4d5$f323b2e0$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366b5ed763263_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <01a301bfb4d5$f323b2e0$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 14:21:29 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I think that use the MMU could improve a lot the test for self-modifying >code, it's the hardware who actually looks for writes, that it´s the worst >about detecting self-modifying code, and the overhead involved to page write >faults will be still better than the overhead of testing all memory writes. I just remembered that Virtual PC indeed uses the PowerPC MMU to simulate Pentium paging. Nothing about self-modifying code is mentioned, but it surely has to deal with it because Intel processors solve that in hardware. It seem that your idea can be implemented even without the emulator behaving like the operating system, but I'm not sure how to do it. I guess it will also depend on the involved hardware and OS. I bet Unix wouldn't like it when you fiddle around with page settings. I had the idea some time earlier because on MIPS you utilize that feature to speed-up page replacement algorithms. Every new page is set to read-only in the beginning, which causes a page fault as soon as you write to it. If the system routine notices that writing is permitted then the page is set to writeable and the dirty bit for that page is set. Due to this technique you only have to trap the first write and still know that the page was changed and you have to store it when it is swapped out. >I think I would be better I would called it "deferred translation". >My first thought about it is to wait until you know everything before >perform a translation. You put a fallback at the code and when it´s >executed you perform the translation. I don´t know if can be useful. For >example could be used with indirect jumps, many times indirect jumps uses >ever the same jump address but it´s hard to discover the address. Ah, so it's like an interpreter/profiler/recompiler combination. >Ha!!, you still don´t know as crazy I am ;) It seems so! >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e When the speaker and he to whom he is speaks do not understand, that is metaphysics. -- Voltaire --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 05:31:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA25743 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 05:31:13 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005031031.MAA09058@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000366b5c30fd5d6_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005031031.MAA09058@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 14:09:37 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Perhaps: a block of sequentially executed code with only an entry point. >Meaning that the full block it's always executed. That's what I meant. I really should be more precise, shouldn't I? >As DOS it's almost the only OS for 8086 it isn't a great mistake. I don't >think his professors pay attention to this. I guess since it's only in the introduction they'll browse right over it. >The Generator doc it's really bad related to the "dynamic recompilation" >implementation chapter. I think Generator isn't that bad as a document, but I don't like the implementation that much. >> This is the patent for Crusoe: >I have already downloaded it. I just went to your dynarec page at Acorn >Emulation Page. Surely was easier than copy'n'paste the long URL into the browser. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Tax reform means "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that fellow behind the tree." -- Russell Long --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 06:50:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25909 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 06:50:42 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 14:50:31 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Yeah, a better definition might be: it's a block of sequential code with an > entry point in the beginning. Yes - but only ONE entry point. And I've read that it's only meant to have one way out too, but I think we can scrap that idea. I know I have! :) > I also found some slight errors in the first chapter: > * The 640k limit is formed by DOS and not the 8086. But the 8086 has the > lovely 64k segments. Yep - and if I'd have read it I'd have said so. But you can't complain about it. Just remember, "640k is enough for anybody!". That wouldn't be half as amusing if it didn't come from the guy who runs the company that produces the most bloated applications I have ever seen! Did you know that things like Word, Access and Excel have lots of Pseudocode-like stuff in there which gets compiled on the fly? So if you've ever wondered why it's a bit slow, that's why. :-/ I tried to open the PostScript file in PSP6, but it died. At least, after 4 minutes it was still loading - so I gave up. Suppose I should try something else to open it! Any suggestions for me, a x86 owning Win '98 owner? I've got lots of things that'd open here at work under Solaris! :o > As far as I can see he only uses the tree-like structures for the matching > templates but the intermediate representation (the phetacode) is still > linear. I can't remember what CPU it emulates. Can anybody enlighten me? > >I used the translation I found in my english-to-spanish dictionary, but I > >think it has to be a better translation. > > Dictionaries are often too much out of context :-( Yeah. And you never find the "good" words in there. You know which ones I mean. ;) > Good. I thought simply listing you and the others would be a bit lame so I > added a small characterization. Nuh? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 06:59:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25930 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 06:59:59 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:02:33 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Message-ID: <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>; from Michael Koenig on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 12:07:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 12:07:05PM +0200, Michael Koenig wrote: > >I don't think any dynarec use real basic blocks (because the effort of be > >sure that it's a BB is too big). > > True, you can never be sure that you found a real basic block. In my project, I differentiated between "basic blocks" and "chunks" (which I think are what you refer to as translation units, but I probably haven't read around the subject as much as some of you...). My "chunks" have the limitation that they must be sequential code blocks (they can disrupt control flow internally). It's not possible to jump into the middle of one of these chunks once recompiled, but they may overlap. The basic blocks I use are subsections of chunks, and are important (ie, pretty much vital) for things like register allocation. They don't have anything to do with the profiler. > Someone who wrote his own dynarec surely knows more about many aspects of > this method, but we might have a better overview after all the discussions we > had. > I also found some slight errors in the first chapter: > * The 640k limit is formed by DOS and not the 8086. But the 8086 has the > lovely 64k segments. > * Generator isn't much of a dynarec but more threaded code, but it took me a > while to realize that. Thanks a lot, I'll fix those things... > >He really doesn't use any optimisation techniques (but some deadcode and > flag > >evaluation supression) > > Flag reduction for ARM emulation is quite easy because the took over a > feature from Berkeley-RISC (later SPARC) that condition flags are only > calculated when a special bit in the instruction is set. > I think he has an example with the instruction "addlts", which means: add if > less than and set flags. It is easy to do at a simple level, which is all that's done at the moment. I think I can do better though ;-) > >but he uses many tree like structures and the phetacode > >and I think it could be easy (well, not so easy) to implement some of this > >optimizations. > > As far as I can see he only uses the tree-like structures for the matching > templates but the intermediate representation (the phetacode) is still > linear. The phetacode IS linear, but I annotate it with tree- (actually graph-) like 'edges', for the benefit of the matching algorithm, which makes it sort-of tree-like. There are places extra optimisations could be added fairly easily and cheaply. Actually, at the moment the whole thing's a bit of a hack to be honest, hope it doesn't show too badly ;-) > >He talks about it as a continuation of the project but I know > >it is something university professors wants to listen ;) > > We'll see ;-) Don't think it'll be academic, depends how things turn out though... ARM Ltd. seem to be interested in the stuff I've done, but that might mean whatever work I'd do would end up being proprietary, which would be a shame I think. Thanks for the interest - I've got a supervision now, so I'd better be off... Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 08:13:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26169 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 08:13:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-Id: <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 17:13:27 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >In my project, I differentiated between "basic blocks" and "chunks" (which >I think are what you refer to as translation units, but I probably haven't >read around the subject as much as some of you...). Generally the size of a translation unit isn't really defined, it's just a block of code that's translated. But a typical definition is to take the first branch target to a new block as the beginning of the unit and then procede to the next unconditional branch. That way you can optimise the heart out of intra unit branches without the need to go through the global dispatcher. >My "chunks" have >the limitation that they must be sequential code blocks (they can disrupt >control flow internally). It's not possible to jump into the middle of one >of these chunks once recompiled, but they may overlap. This is the typical approach with dynamic register allocation, which you are using. Neil Bradley currently uses a direct address to address mapping which allows him to jump right into any previously translated block. But this only works because he uses static register allocation, meaning all simulated registers are allocated to the same hardware registers all of the time, and because he doesn't do any peephole optimisation yet. >The basic blocks I use are subsections of chunks, and are important (ie, >pretty much vital) for things like register allocation. They don't have >anything to do with the profiler. The profiler works with chunks, right? >Thanks a lot, I'll fix those things... Never mind. Expect more comments as I read on. >The phetacode IS linear, but I annotate it with tree- (actually graph-) >like 'edges', for the benefit of the matching algorithm, which makes it >sort-of tree-like. There are places extra optimisations could be added >fairly easily and cheaply. I haven't finished reading that section yet, so forgive my incompetence ;-) >Actually, at the moment the whole thing's a bit >of a hack to be honest, hope it doesn't show too badly ;-) If you want to see dynarec hacks then take a look at the current open source N64 and PSX emulators! Compared to that your method is cleanly designed. >Don't think it'll be academic, depends how things turn out though... ARM >Ltd. seem to be interested in the stuff I've done, but that might mean >whatever work I'd do would end up being proprietary, which would be a shame >I think. Maybe, but it sounds like a very interesting offer! >Jules -- M.I.K.e The optimum committee has no members. -- Norman Augustine --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 08:13:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26173 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 08:13:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366b816fa85f3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:56:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Yes - but only ONE entry point. And I've read that it's only meant to have >one way out too, but I think we can scrap that idea. I know I have! :) Actually there are two ways out. Since a basic block is terminated by conditional branches you have one for the branch taken and one for the branch not taken. >Yep - and if I'd have read it I'd have said so. But you can't complain >about it. Just remember, "640k is enough for anybody!". That wouldn't be >half as amusing if it didn't come from the guy who runs the company that >produces the most bloated applications I have ever seen! Too true! >Did you know that things like Word, Access and Excel have lots of >Pseudocode-like stuff in there which gets compiled on the fly? So if you've >ever wondered why it's a bit slow, that's why. :-/ Where did you get that information? >I tried to open the PostScript file in PSP6, but it died. At least, after 4 >minutes it was still loading - so I gave up. Suppose I should try something >else to open it! Any suggestions for me, a x86 owning Win '98 owner? I've >got lots of things that'd open here at work under Solaris! :o How about Ghostview? It certainly is available for Windows (and I used it to print the dissertation), but the download could be a bit large... >I can't remember what CPU it emulates. Can anybody enlighten me? You wan to be an Englishman? It emulates an ARM processor in user mode. >> Dictionaries are often too much out of context :-( >Yeah. And you never find the "good" words in there. You know which ones I >mean. ;) You mean the bird-watching related ones? ;-) >> Good. I thought simply listing you and the others would be a bit lame so I >> added a small characterization. >Nuh? ;) If you don't agree with what I wrote about you then tell me what I should write instead ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Spend extra time on hobby. Get plenty of rolling papers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 09:13:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26340 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 09:13:51 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:16:28 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Message-ID: <20000503171627.A1084@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>; from Michael Koenig on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 05:13:27PM +0200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 05:13:27PM +0200, Michael Koenig wrote: > > Neil Bradley currently uses a direct address to address mapping which allows > him to jump right into any previously translated block. But this only works > because he uses static register allocation, meaning all simulated registers > are allocated to the same hardware registers all of the time, and because he > doesn't do any peephole optimisation yet. I couldn't do that, obviously - there aren't enough registers on the x86... > >The basic blocks I use are subsections of chunks, and are important (ie, > >pretty much vital) for things like register allocation. They don't have > >anything to do with the profiler. > > The profiler works with chunks, right? Yes. > If you want to see dynarec hacks then take a look at the current open source > N64 and PSX emulators! Compared to that your method is cleanly designed. Maybe when I have more time :-) Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 09:24:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26364 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 09:24:19 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39105209.131E8B4@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 18:21:29 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503171627.A1084@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I couldn't do that, obviously - there aren't enough registers on the > x86... No, this is for the Z80. Could be interesting when I and Andrew join him in the 68k CPU. :) > > If you want to see dynarec hacks then take a look at the current open source > > N64 and PSX emulators! Compared to that your method is cleanly designed. > > Maybe when I have more time :-) Are you in the same situation as two of my friends who have to have their projects + dissertations in by this Friday? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 09:30:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26398 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 09:30:27 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:32:57 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Message-ID: <20000503173256.A1193@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503171627.A1084@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <39105209.131E8B4@eurocopter.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <39105209.131E8B4@eurocopter.de>; from Neil Griffiths on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 06:21:29PM +0200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 06:21:29PM +0200, Neil Griffiths wrote: > > I couldn't do that, obviously - there aren't enough registers on the > > x86... > > No, this is for the Z80. Could be interesting when I and Andrew join him in > the 68k CPU. :) Right... > Are you in the same situation as two of my friends who have to have their > projects + dissertations in by this Friday? Not quite that bad, I've got 'til the 19th I think. Still, I'm supposed to be revising for exams too... Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 09:44:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA26439 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 09:44:08 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <391056D0.957A7360@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 18:41:52 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503171627.A1084@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <39105209.131E8B4@eurocopter.de> <20000503173256.A1193@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > No, this is for the Z80. Could be interesting when I and Andrew join him in > > the 68k CPU. :) > > Right... 10 registers. I think they're all 16-bit as well - but I haven't checked that out just yet. :) > > Are you in the same situation as two of my friends who have to have their > > projects + dissertations in by this Friday? > > Not quite that bad, I've got 'til the 19th I think. Still, I'm supposed to > be revising for exams too... Hmm. You're not that much better off, are you? Not if exams are straight after. It's always good to have at least a fortnight of revision... Mind you, this is the flukemeister himself talking. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 10:24:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26619 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:24:28 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:24:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > I also found some slight errors in the first chapter: > > * The 640k limit is formed by DOS and not the 8086. But the 8086 has the > > lovely 64k segments. > Yep - and if I'd have read it I'd have said so. But you can't complain > about it. Just remember, "640k is enough for anybody!". That wouldn't be > half as amusing if it didn't come from the guy who runs the company that > produces the most bloated applications I have ever seen! Sorry - urban legend. This was said by Thomas Watson Jr. of IBM - not by Bill Gates. If you think about it, it doesn't make sense. Microsoft didn't impose the 640K limit - IBM did with the design of the IBM PC. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 10:56:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26808 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:56:47 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <391056D0.957A7360@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366ba56e79742_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503171627.A1084@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <39105209.131E8B4@eurocopter.de> <20000503173256.A1193@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <391056D0.957A7360@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 19:37:18 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> > No, this is for the Z80. Could be interesting when I and Andrew join him >> >in the 68k CPU. :) >10 registers. I think they're all 16-bit as well - but I haven't checked >that out just yet. :) Z80 or 68K? The 68K has 8 data and 8 address registers with a 32-bit width, a PC, a PSR, and an additional A7 for supervisor mode. The Z80 has 8 registers (including flags and accumulator) with 8-bit width, with a complete shadow bank. There are further 16-bit registers: 2 index registers (IX, IY), SP, and PC. For comparison, the ARM has 16 GPRs with 32 bit, of which R15 is used as PC. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e My mother loved children -- she would have given anything if I had been one. -- Groucho Marx --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 11:03:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA26857 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:03:04 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:03:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <000366ba56e79742_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > The Z80 has 8 registers (including flags and accumulator) with 8-bit width, > with a complete shadow bank. There are further 16-bit registers: 2 index > registers (IX, IY), SP, and PC. Well, AF - 8 bit/8 bit flag BC - 16 bit DE - 16 bit HL - 16 bit IX - 16 bit IY - 16 bit SP - 16 bit PC - 16 bit (duh) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 15:08:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27757 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:08:11 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <000301bfb553$ca098dc0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503171627.A1084@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <39105209.131E8B4@eurocopter.de> <20000503173256.A1193@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <391056D0.957A7360@eurocopter.de> <000366ba56e79742_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:59:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >10 registers. I think they're all 16-bit as well - but I haven't checked > >that out just yet. :) > > Z80 or 68K? 68k. > The 68K has 8 data and 8 address registers with a 32-bit width, a PC, a PSR, > and an additional A7 for supervisor mode. I don't know which registers can be used for what, I just know their names - I had a list in front of me at the time. :) > The Z80 has 8 registers (including flags and accumulator) with 8-bit width, > with a complete shadow bank. There are further 16-bit registers: 2 index > registers (IX, IY), SP, and PC. Well, you could have 16-bit registers on the Z80. I can't remember all of them, but I know I used HL a lot - and that was a 16-bit register. I used know one hell of a lot about the Z80 (ex-demo coder for the CPC, remember?) but my knowledge then extends to the x86, where I am also quite proficient. I know a little 6502 and 6510 (I did a little ASM for the C64 years ago) but I really can't remember much from those. > For comparison, the ARM has 16 GPRs with 32 bit, of which R15 is used as PC. It's annoying that other CPUs have so many registers. It would make optimisations so much easier if we had more registers available! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 15:14:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27793 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:14:30 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <000201bfb553$c79e0c00$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:52:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Yep - and if I'd have read it I'd have said so. But you can't complain > > about it. Just remember, "640k is enough for anybody!". That wouldn't be > > half as amusing if it didn't come from the guy who runs the company that > > produces the most bloated applications I have ever seen! > > Sorry - urban legend. This was said by Thomas Watson Jr. of IBM - not by > Bill Gates. If you think about it, it doesn't make sense. Microsoft didn't > impose the 640K limit - IBM did with the design of the IBM PC. Ah, but I never said that I was talking about Mr. Gates. ;) Okay, I was, but that's not the point. :) The scary thing is that my friend has a transcript of some of the first speeches Gates gave about MS-DOS and it's in one of them. That would imply that either a) They're fake (Mark will be upset!) or b) Gates *did* say it - he just wasn't the first to, Watson was. Ooh. Mysteries! You are right to say that it wouldn't make sense, but seeing as MS and IBM were so closely linked at that time, it actually could make sense. I actually believe you, but that is worrying about the transcripts... Has someone really got that much time on their hands to fake them? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 15:22:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27877 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:22:23 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <000701bfb553$cec9ade0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005031022.MAA08932@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: More ARM emulation Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:19:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > More info to Neil Griffiths classification doc ;) Uh, I'd forgotten all about that! Hmm... No, I'm not doing it now. It's yet another thing I'll mean to do this weekend - and then forget about. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 15:22:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27885 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:22:25 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <000401bfb553$cbe8ae00$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:01:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Well, > > AF - 8 bit/8 bit flag > BC - 16 bit > DE - 16 bit > HL - 16 bit > IX - 16 bit > IY - 16 bit > SP - 16 bit > PC - 16 bit (duh) That's them! That's them! I remember them now! I seem to remember registers like 'A' and 'D' though. Whether that's my memory failing or not, I'm not quite sure. I certainly don't remember *always* using two letters for registers... :o Neil --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 15:22:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27892 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:22:26 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <000601bfb553$cde7d960$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> <000366b816fa85f3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:17:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I can't remember what CPU it emulates. Can anybody enlighten me? > > You wan to be an Englishman? It emulates an ARM processor in user mode. I don't *want* to be an Englishman. I just... am. :o > >Yeah. And you never find the "good" words in there. You know which ones I > >mean. ;) > > You mean the bird-watching related ones? ;-) Maybe. ;) > >Nuh? ;) > > If you don't agree with what I wrote about you then tell me what I should > write instead ;-) Until recently, I really hadn't read, replied or reconsidered any required use of the really special prefix "re". Really, read recent real required reading material (e-mails) from me and see if it's true. Oh yes, I got bored of trying to think of words that started with "re". ;) I don't mind, though I'm not sure it's the best description. Maybe a better one would be "Neil Griffiths - The God of all things related to dynamic recompilation. And women love him too. And he's very modest". Of course, this would be a load of lies, but that isn't the point. ;)) I'm not entirely sure what you'd need to write about me. Tell you what, we'll leave it as it is and see if anything better comes to mind shall we? I've got one for you as well, Mike. "Mike - German guy. Need I say more?" ;p Actually, I have got one for myself now. "Neil Griffiths - Lives in Germany, doesn't speak German. Take that as a metaphor, apply it to dynamic recompilation and that's him". :)) Ooh, don't write that. That's really derogatory. Against me! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 15:23:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27904 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:23:57 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:23:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <000201bfb553$c79e0c00$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > about it. Just remember, "640k is enough for anybody!". That wouldn't be > > > half as amusing if it didn't come from the guy who runs the company that > > > produces the most bloated applications I have ever seen! > > Sorry - urban legend. This was said by Thomas Watson Jr. of IBM - not by > > Bill Gates. If you think about it, it doesn't make sense. Microsoft didn't > > impose the 640K limit - IBM did with the design of the IBM PC. > Ah, but I never said that I was talking about Mr. Gates. ;) Yes, you did. "come from the guy who runs the company that produces the most bloated applications I have ever seen!". ;-) > The scary thing is that my friend has a transcript of some of the first > speeches Gates gave about MS-DOS and it's in one of them. That would imply > that either > a) They're fake (Mark will be upset!) or > b) Gates *did* say it - he just wasn't the first to, Watson was. a) It's fake. It doesn't make sense that Gates would say something like that. That limitation is a *HARDWARE* issue - not a *SOFTWARE* issue. IBM Made the (stupid) decision to map all their hardware at the top of the address space instead of at the bottom - not Microsoft. And at the time, 640K was enough for anybody. 64K Of RAM was $350. Apps were tiny. No hurting came of it until many years later. It's funny how ridiculous something can sound when you take it out of context, but at the time that statement was plenty truthful. > Ooh. Mysteries! You are right to say that it wouldn't make sense, but seeing > as MS and IBM were so closely linked at that time, it actually could make > sense. I actually believe you, but that is worrying about the transcripts... > Has someone really got that much time on their hands to fake them? Most likely there was more than one person talking at the time of the PC's release and who was talking wound up getting lost. Or it got fabricated. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 15:24:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27914 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:24:34 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:24:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <000401bfb553$cbe8ae00$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > AF - 8 bit/8 bit flag > > BC - 16 bit > > DE - 16 bit > > HL - 16 bit > > IX - 16 bit > > IY - 16 bit > > SP - 16 bit > > PC - 16 bit (duh) > That's them! That's them! I remember them now! > I seem to remember registers like 'A' and 'D' though. Whether that's my > memory failing or not, I'm not quite sure. I certainly don't remember > *always* using two letters for registers... :o You can use A, B, C, D, E, H, or L individually, but IX/IY/SP/PC were always in a 16 bit fashion. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley I can tolerate ignorance because it's curable, but Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupidity is forever binding it seems. ICQ # 29402898 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 16:24:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA28154 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:24:55 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <000301bfb553$ca098dc0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <000366bf19d4fcc2_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503150232.B938@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <000366b8547a99b9_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000503171627.A1084@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <39105209.131E8B4@eurocopter.de> <20000503173256.A1193@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> <391056D0.957A7360@eurocopter.de> <000366ba56e79742_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <000301bfb553$ca098dc0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 01:18:08 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >68k. >I don't know which registers can be used for what, I just know their names - >I had a list in front of me at the time. :) Data registers: D0-D7 Address registers: A0-A7, where A7 is used as SP and there is a shadowed A7' for superiser mode Else: PC and PSR Apart from PSR (8-bit) all registers are 32-bit in width. >Well, you could have 16-bit registers on the Z80. I can't remember all of >them, but I know I used HL a lot - and that was a 16-bit register. You can combine the 8-bit registers as 16-bit registers. HL is actually a combination of the registers H and L. X86 remodels that with AX consisting of AH and AL, and so on. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e If you are a fatalist, what can you do about it? -- Ann Edwards-Duff --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 16:25:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA28167 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:25:01 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <000601bfb553$cde7d960$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <000366bf320af002_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> <000366b816fa85f3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <000601bfb553$cde7d960$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 01:24:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I don't *want* to be an Englishman. I just... am. :o Oh shit! What did you do wrong? Or rather blame your parents! ;-) But you do know the ARM, do you? >Until recently, I really hadn't read, replied or reconsidered any required >use of the really special prefix "re". Really, read recent real required >reading material (e-mails) from me and see if it's true. I know, but I couldn't think of anything better. I couldn't have written: "He likes to go bird-watching in the English garden." >Oh yes, I got bored of trying to think of words that started with "re". ;) xxally? ;-) >I don't mind, though I'm not sure it's the best description. Maybe a better >one would be "Neil Griffiths - The God of all things related to dynamic >recompilation. And women love him too. And he's very modest". Of course, >this would be a load of lies, but that isn't the point. ;)) Are you sure you don't have any German ancestors? You sound just like Münchausen ;-) >I'm not entirely sure what you'd need to write about me. Tell you what, >we'll leave it as it is and see if anything better comes to mind shall we? Ok. When you have the 68K dynarec ready then I know what to write, but I'll accept any earlier hints as well. >I've got one for you as well, Mike. "Mike - German guy. Need I say more?" ;p Why should I credit myself? I might credit my brain, but the characterization would be rather bad... >Actually, I have got one for myself now. "Neil Griffiths - Lives in Germany, >doesn't speak German. Take that as a metaphor, apply it to dynamic >recompilation and that's him". :)) Hehe. >Ooh, don't write that. That's really derogatory. Against me! :o Then I *have* to write it! >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Some people have a way about them that seems to say: "If I have only one life to live, let me live it as a jerk." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 23:28:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29292 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 23:28:01 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3911175A.906936@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 08:23:22 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > I seem to remember registers like 'A' and 'D' though. Whether that's my > > memory failing or not, I'm not quite sure. I certainly don't remember > > *always* using two letters for registers... :o > > You can use A, B, C, D, E, H, or L individually, but IX/IY/SP/PC were > always in a 16 bit fashion. Thank god! My memory does it again! I was worried I was going mad there, I could remember it! I'm glad I was right. I always remembered being able to pair registers to make 16-bit values - but I never really checked it out. It's amazing how much I've forgotten - but I reckon if I go back and look at some Z80 source code then it'll all come back to me. :) In fact, I think I'll do that today. For nostalgia reasons. Get some Z80 source code. Specifically for the CPC. Hmm. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 23:28:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29301 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 23:28:04 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <391116DD.1C39BA31@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 08:21:17 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Ah, but I never said that I was talking about Mr. Gates. ;) > > Yes, you did. "come from the guy who runs the company that produces the > most bloated applications I have ever seen!". ;-) Have you seen OS/2? ;) > a) It's fake. It doesn't make sense that Gates would say something like > that. That limitation is a *HARDWARE* issue - not a *SOFTWARE* issue. IBM > Made the (stupid) decision to map all their hardware at the top of the > address space instead of at the bottom - not Microsoft. And at the time, > 640K was enough for anybody. 64K Of RAM was $350. Apps were tiny. No > hurting came of it until many years later. It's funny how ridiculous > something can sound when you take it out of context, but at the time that > statement was plenty truthful. Yep, I know that. It's just a shame that it isn't true. :) Of course, at the time 640K *was* enough for anybody. It changed with the 286 I think (I saw some with an amazing 1MB of RAM). And then it went up with the 386 (2-4MB), up with the 486 (4-8MB) and with the Pentium it was 16MB until Win '95 came out. Then it became a requirement to have 32MB. :) > > Has someone really got that much time on their hands to fake them? > > Most likely there was more than one person talking at the time of the PC's > release and who was talking wound up getting lost. Or it got fabricated. True enough. I may have to research that. I won't tell my friend, Mark, about it just yet. He's quite the geek and will be quite upset if I tell him that some of his prized possesions are actually fake (or incorrect). :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 23:30:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29318 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 23:30:59 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:30:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <391116DD.1C39BA31@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > Ah, but I never said that I was talking about Mr. Gates. ;) > > Yes, you did. "come from the guy who runs the company that produces the > > most bloated applications I have ever seen!". ;-) > Have you seen OS/2? ;) Maybe slightly overweight, but not obese. ;-) > Of course, at the time 640K *was* enough for anybody. It changed with the > 286 I think (I saw some with an amazing 1MB of RAM). And then it went up > with the 386 (2-4MB), up with the 486 (4-8MB) and with the Pentium it was > 16MB until Win '95 came out. Then it became a requirement to have 32MB. :) You're thinking of NT. Win '95 ran fine in 8MB of RAM. '98 Wasn't so lucky, though... > > > Has someone really got that much time on their hands to fake them? > > Most likely there was more than one person talking at the time of the PC's > > release and who was talking wound up getting lost. Or it got fabricated. > True enough. I may have to research that. I won't tell my friend, Mark, > about it just yet. He's quite the geek and will be quite upset if I tell > him that some of his prized possesions are actually fake (or incorrect). :o It's better to dishearten him instead of having a false saying be continuously spread. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 3 23:34:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29341 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 23:34:16 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3911190C.D1F06BA0@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 08:30:36 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> <000366b816fa85f3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <000601bfb553$cde7d960$0100a8c0@lion> <000366bf320af002_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >I don't *want* to be an Englishman. I just... am. :o > > Oh shit! What did you do wrong? Or rather blame your parents! ;-) The amusing thing is that my Dad is a proud Welshman. Okay, that's not amusing by itself - but given that my sister was born on St. George's Day (the patron saint of England) then that is. :) > But you do know the ARM, do you? Of course. I've used many Archimedes machines... Though I haven't used one in a hell of long time! > >Until recently, I really hadn't read, replied or reconsidered any required > >use of the really special prefix "re". Really, read recent real required > >reading material (e-mails) from me and see if it's true. > > I know, but I couldn't think of anything better. I couldn't have written: "He > likes to go bird-watching in the English garden." Okay, I'm quite glad you didn't write that. :) > >I don't mind, though I'm not sure it's the best description. Maybe a better > >one would be "Neil Griffiths - The God of all things related to dynamic > >recompilation. And women love him too. And he's very modest". Of course, > >this would be a load of lies, but that isn't the point. ;)) > > Are you sure you don't have any German ancestors? You sound just like > Münchausen ;-) Possibly, but I know for a fact that I've got Spanish ancestors. Given that my Mum's side of the family is English, it's quite possible that I have German ancestors. It's not so likely from my Dad's side of the family because they're all Welsh. And the Welsh were never defeated in battle, not even when you go as far back as the Romans. Having said that, you can see Wales being trashed all the time if you cared to watch a sports match. Doesn't matter what the sport, if there's a Welsh team then they'll lose. :)) > >I've got one for you as well, Mike. "Mike - German guy. Need I say more?" ;p > > Why should I credit myself? I might credit my brain, but the characterization > would be rather bad... That's okay, we can credit you whenever a link is made to the FAQ. So be careful what you write about me! ;) > >Ooh, don't write that. That's really derogatory. Against me! :o > > Then I *have* to write it! Damn! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 00:34:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA29535 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 00:34:18 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3911190C.D1F06BA0@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366c60a20ccd8_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> <000366b816fa85f3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <000601bfb553$cde7d960$0100a8c0@lion> <000366bf320af002_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3911190C.D1F06BA0@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 09:34:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The amusing thing is that my Dad is a proud Welshman. Okay, that's not >amusing by itself - but given that my sister was born on St. George's Day >(the patron saint of England) then that is. :) Probably better as if she were born of St. Patrick's Day ;-) >Of course. I've used many Archimedes machines... Though I haven't used one >in a hell of long time! Then you have to visit me, I have a RiscPC ;-) >Possibly, but I know for a fact that I've got Spanish ancestors. Given that >my Mum's side of the family is English, it's quite possible that I have >German ancestors. It's not so likely from my Dad's side of the family >because they're all Welsh. And the Welsh were never defeated in battle, not >even when you go as far back as the Romans. Seems that I missed that aspect of Brithish history. >Having said that, you can see Wales being trashed all the time if you cared >to watch a sports match. Doesn't matter what the sport, if there's a Welsh >team then they'll lose. :)) Hehe. >That's okay, we can credit you whenever a link is made to the FAQ. So be >careful what you write about me! ;) Maybe I could be credited as "Mike the bookwork"? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e It is very difficult to prophesy, especially when it pertains to the future. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 00:34:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA29544 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 00:34:49 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3911270C.1A85168D@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 09:30:20 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Have you seen OS/2? ;) > > Maybe slightly overweight, but not obese. ;-) Er... SmartSuite? ViaVoice? Er... I can't think of any more IBM applications that are recent! :o > > Of course, at the time 640K *was* enough for anybody. It changed with the > > 286 I think (I saw some with an amazing 1MB of RAM). And then it went up > > with the 386 (2-4MB), up with the 486 (4-8MB) and with the Pentium it was > > 16MB until Win '95 came out. Then it became a requirement to have 32MB. :) > > You're thinking of NT. Win '95 ran fine in 8MB of RAM. '98 Wasn't so > lucky, though... No, I'm thinking of '95. Let's see. Win '95 (original version) with 8MB RAM. Load MS-DOS Prompt. Takes 4 seconds to give you a prompt (and your HD thrashes). 16MB of RAM, on the other hand, and the MS-DOS prompt is pretty much instant. I also used IE3 and Netscape 3 in the original '95 with 8MB of RAM. Terrible performance. Much better with 16MB... > > True enough. I may have to research that. I won't tell my friend, Mark, > > about it just yet. He's quite the geek and will be quite upset if I tell > > him that some of his prized possesions are actually fake (or incorrect). :o > > It's better to dishearten him instead of having a false saying be > continuously spread. ;-) Actually, I may enjoy it. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 00:39:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA29566 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 00:39:38 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 00:39:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <3911270C.1A85168D@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > with the 386 (2-4MB), up with the 486 (4-8MB) and with the Pentium it was > > > 16MB until Win '95 came out. Then it became a requirement to have 32MB. :) > > You're thinking of NT. Win '95 ran fine in 8MB of RAM. '98 Wasn't so > > lucky, though... > No, I'm thinking of '95. Let's see. Win '95 (original version) with 8MB > RAM. Load MS-DOS Prompt. Takes 4 seconds to give you a prompt (and your HD > thrashes). 16MB of RAM, on the other hand, and the MS-DOS prompt is pretty > much instant. Um... no... I ran Win '95 on several machines configured with only 8MB of RAM and it didn't hit swap. You must've added in a bunch of other shit. The basic OS with everything loaded takes about 6.3MB, and loading a DOS prompt doesn't cause thrashing. I don't know what you did to cause lousy performance on your machine, but it's completely opposite of what I experienced for many years on many machines. > I also used IE3 and Netscape 3 in the original '95 with 8MB of RAM. > Terrible performance. Much better with 16MB... Well yeah - Nutscrape and Internet Exploder are pigs. But that's not Windows 95's fault. Bloated apps know no OS bounds... ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 00:53:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA29593 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 00:53:52 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39112B63.9B462ABF@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 09:48:51 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Um... no... I ran Win '95 on several machines configured with only 8MB of > RAM and it didn't hit swap. You must've added in a bunch of other > shit. The basic OS with everything loaded takes about 6.3MB, and loading a > DOS prompt doesn't cause thrashing. I don't know what you did to cause > lousy performance on your machine, but it's completely opposite of what I > experienced for many years on many machines. Well I'm certainly not the only one to experience this and it certainly isn't just the case with my machines. I've seen this on at least 20 machines (some from friends, some from College etc). So maybe you're just exceptionally lucky. ;) > > I also used IE3 and Netscape 3 in the original '95 with 8MB of RAM. > > Terrible performance. Much better with 16MB... > > Well yeah - Nutscrape and Internet Exploder are pigs. But that's not > Windows 95's fault. Bloated apps know no OS bounds... ;-) Ah, but remember. IE is a part of the OS and not an application. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 01:04:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29627 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 01:04:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:04:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <39112B63.9B462ABF@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > shit. The basic OS with everything loaded takes about 6.3MB, and loading a > > DOS prompt doesn't cause thrashing. I don't know what you did to cause > > lousy performance on your machine, but it's completely opposite of what I > > experienced for many years on many machines. > Well I'm certainly not the only one to experience this and it certainly > isn't just the case with my machines. I've seen this on at least 20 > machines (some from friends, some from College etc). So maybe you're just > exceptionally lucky. ;) On all the boxen I've worked on? Hardly. > > > I also used IE3 and Netscape 3 in the original '95 with 8MB of RAM. > > > Terrible performance. Much better with 16MB... > > Well yeah - Nutscrape and Internet Exploder are pigs. But that's not > > Windows 95's fault. Bloated apps know no OS bounds... ;-) > Ah, but remember. IE is a part of the OS and not an application. ;) No, it's not. In '95 it was a completely separate application (the topic of our discussion) that you had to buy in the plus pack. In '98, all of the doc view controls for Java and HTML viewers are either OCX controls or DLLs (as is the internet access DLLs that lots of other applications use) - something that come with the operating system, but aren't inherently part of it. Never you mind that they were PUBLISHED SPECIFICATIONS that were openly available to *ANYONE* who wanted to use them. The thing is that *EVERYTHING* uses them - everything from Word to Excel, etc... So a small piece of it came with the OS that is a shared resource for lots of other programs to use. By the logic above, MFC40.DLL, a DLL that ships with all MS operating systems (and used by lots of applications) is also "part of the operating system", which would make anything that uses it part of the operating system. Of course, that doesn't add up. MSIE As an "application" is nothing more than glue to piece those components and controls together. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 01:24:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29670 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 01:24:33 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3911328E.91B5056@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 10:19:26 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> <000366b816fa85f3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <000601bfb553$cde7d960$0100a8c0@lion> <000366bf320af002_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3911190C.D1F06BA0@eurocopter.de> <000366c60a20ccd8_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >The amusing thing is that my Dad is a proud Welshman. Okay, that's not > >amusing by itself - but given that my sister was born on St. George's Day > >(the patron saint of England) then that is. :) > > Probably better as if she were born of St. Patrick's Day ;-) That would be fine, no problem with the Irish. I've been out quite a few times now on St. Paddy's day. I still don't like Guinness though... > >Of course. I've used many Archimedes machines... Though I haven't used one > >in a hell of long time! > > Then you have to visit me, I have a RiscPC ;-) But probably not with a 486 DX2/66 - which was the case with the very first RiscPC I ever saw. Which I probably saw before you too! > >Possibly, but I know for a fact that I've got Spanish ancestors. Given that > >my Mum's side of the family is English, it's quite possible that I have > >German ancestors. It's not so likely from my Dad's side of the family > >because they're all Welsh. And the Welsh were never defeated in battle, not > >even when you go as far back as the Romans. > > Seems that I missed that aspect of Brithish history. It's not so interesting. The Welsh got bored of winning and the English got bored of losing, so they signed a treaty to not attack each other. I'm not entirely sure what the Welsh got out of it - but I know that we suddenly had a Prince of Wales. Maybe he was Welsh? I'm not sure, I haven't really studied it! > >That's okay, we can credit you whenever a link is made to the FAQ. So be > >careful what you write about me! ;) > > Maybe I could be credited as "Mike the bookwork"? "Mike the bookworm" sounds better. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 01:33:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29704 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 01:33:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3911345B.1BBDE70D@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 10:27:07 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > On all the boxen I've worked on? Hardly. We've got remarkably different experiences then. :) > > Ah, but remember. IE is a part of the OS and not an application. ;) > > No, it's not. Yeah, I know - that's why I put the winking smilie thing there. :) > In '95 it was a completely separate application (the topic of our > discussion) that you had to buy in the plus pack. Actually, IE2 came with Win '95. And if it didn't then I had some freaky CD that had it on, because it was installed along with everything else. IE3 came with OSR2 (though I think you're right in saying it came with the Plus pack). > So a small piece of it came with the OS that is a shared resource for lots > of other programs to use. By the logic above, MFC40.DLL, a DLL that ships > with all MS operating systems (and used by lots of applications) is also > "part of the operating system", which would make anything that uses it > part of the operating system. Of course, that doesn't add up. Of course. I was only winding you up. It worked. ;) > MSIE As an "application" is nothing more than glue to piece those > components and controls together. Yep. I was merely referring to MS' argument that IE is part of the OS. That tune changed, but that is what they did claim in court. It isn't, it is - as you say - an application. I know that, you know that, we all know that. This is one thing that MS *did* say that I find funny. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 01:33:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29713 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 01:33:45 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <003701bfb5a3$0551b200$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:30:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > > AF - 8 bit/8 bit flag > > > BC - 16 bit > > > DE - 16 bit > > > HL - 16 bit > > > IX - 16 bit > > > IY - 16 bit > > > SP - 16 bit > > > PC - 16 bit (duh) > > That's them! That's them! I remember them now! > > I seem to remember registers like 'A' and 'D' though. Whether that's my > > memory failing or not, I'm not quite sure. I certainly don't remember > > *always* using two letters for registers... :o > > You can use A, B, C, D, E, H, or L individually, but IX/IY/SP/PC were > always in a 16 bit fashion. > > -->Neil Tut tut, you big fibber! You're forgetting the undocumented IXh/IXl, and IYh/IYl ops. Get back to work on that MZ80 core immediately! ;) Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 01:45:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29756 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 01:45:30 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:45:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated In-Reply-To: <3911345B.1BBDE70D@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > In '95 it was a completely separate application (the topic of our > > discussion) that you had to buy in the plus pack. > Actually, IE2 came with Win '95. And if it didn't then I had some freaky CD > that had it on, because it was installed along with everything else. I guess you did. You're going to find this surprisingly sickening, but I just installed Win 95 on a boxen downstairs. No Internet Exploder in sight. OSR2 Did have it or some version of it. > > with all MS operating systems (and used by lots of applications) is also > > "part of the operating system", which would make anything that uses it > > part of the operating system. Of course, that doesn't add up. > Of course. I was only winding you up. It worked. ;) Aha! Gotcha. Well, it's not widely understood and I'm really getting sick of the know-nothings professing like they have a fucking clue about it and hopping on the anti-Microsoft bandwagon just to be part of the tirade. > > MSIE As an "application" is nothing more than glue to piece those > > components and controls together. > Yep. I was merely referring to MS' argument that IE is part of the OS. That > tune changed, but that is what they did claim in court. It isn't, it is - > as you say - an application. I know that, you know that, we all know that. > This is one thing that MS *did* say that I find funny. >From some of the transcripts I saw, I thought there was a *LOT* of miscommunication, and what was defined as an application and what was defined as a resource wasn't clearly noted anywhere that I could see. You can bet your ass that if I created an OS and included those DLLs so I can now publish my help text on the web and on my OS's CD, and was told by the courts to remove it, I'd tell them to fuck off. The problem is the court didn't make the distinction as to what was or wasn't "IE". I'm also annoyed by the fact that people aren't going after Apple and AOL for the same things that Microsoft is getting nailed for. Grr... I'm certainly no MS sympathizer, but they don't deserve that much shit. Netscape deserves a *LOT* of shit for Netscape 6. It's a joke. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 02:42:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA30032 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 02:42:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <39114398.C39A0D9@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 11:32:08 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Actually, IE2 came with Win '95. And if it didn't then I had some freaky CD > > that had it on, because it was installed along with everything else. > > I guess you did. You're going to find this surprisingly sickening, but I > just installed Win 95 on a boxen downstairs. No Internet Exploder in > sight. OSR2 Did have it or some version of it. Seriously?! Er... My original Win '95 really does install IE2 along with it. Erm... Only thing I can think of is that my CD is European and they did something different when they released '95 over here. Otherwise it's really scary. I could give you CRCs of the .CAB files if I was in the UK so we could guess what is different, but I can't do that right now. All I can say is that the only reason I've ever used IE2 is because of my old '95 CD... Scary! :o > > Of course. I was only winding you up. It worked. ;) > > Aha! Gotcha. Well, it's not widely understood and I'm really getting sick > of the know-nothings professing like they have a fucking clue about it and > hopping on the anti-Microsoft bandwagon just to be part of the > tirade. No, I completely agree. I'm sure if you were to look through old e-mails in mailing lists like Retrocade (and quite possibly Dynarec!) that I don't hate MS. I use their software every day. I believe IE5 to be the best browser around for the PC at the moment. I like Opera - but IE5 does what I need it to do and does it fast. Windows is an impressive feat of programming when you consider the amount of time it was written in. Okay, there are bugs - but at least they're being fixed. I don't agree with their business practices for the most part - but I do use their products because they are the best products for me. I have never followed a crowd just for followings sake - which appears to be the main reason why most people are doing it now. MS have some impressive products and so long as they're right for me then I'm going to use them. Besides, my computing life would be nowhere near as much fun if I didn't have to battle the crashes. ;) > > Yep. I was merely referring to MS' argument that IE is part of the OS. That > > tune changed, but that is what they did claim in court. It isn't, it is - > > as you say - an application. I know that, you know that, we all know that. > > This is one thing that MS *did* say that I find funny. > > From some of the transcripts I saw, I thought there was a *LOT* of > miscommunication, and what was defined as an application and what was > defined as a resource wasn't clearly noted anywhere that I could see. Yes, I agree with you here. > You can bet your ass that if I created an OS and included those DLLs so I > can now publish my help text on the web and on my OS's CD, and was told by > the courts to remove it, I'd tell them to fuck off. The problem is the > court didn't make the distinction as to what was or wasn't "IE". Yes, exactly - and it was a big problem. To sue them for bad business practices is fine - but I'm not quite sure why they brought IE into the picture... > I'm also annoyed by the fact that people aren't going after Apple and AOL > for the same things that Microsoft is getting nailed for. Grr... I'm > certainly no MS sympathizer, but they don't deserve that much > shit. Netscape deserves a *LOT* of shit for Netscape 6. It's a joke. ;-) No, I agree. And I'd love to see AOL go down for the same thing. Not sure about Apple, at least Apple are competition for MS. Even then, can I make exceptions? I haven't used NS6 mainly because I've found every version of IE superior to the same version of Netscape. IE5 handles brilliantly for me and I'm not going to swap to Netscape. Nope. NOP. XOR AX, AX. SHL BX, 8. And that says it pretty well. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 4 09:45:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31018 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 4 May 2000 09:45:27 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ updated From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3911328E.91B5056@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000366ccf7530037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005030856.KAA06680@pons.ac.upc.es> <000366b40cd5d46b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <39102096.29B24E93@eurocopter.de> <000366b816fa85f3_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <000601bfb553$cde7d960$0100a8c0@lion> <000366bf320af002_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3911190C.D1F06BA0@eurocopter.de> <000366c60a20ccd8_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3911328E.91B5056@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 17:50:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >That would be fine, no problem with the Irish. I've been out quite a few >times now on St. Paddy's day. Ok. >I still don't like Guinness though... Never tasted it... >> Then you have to visit me, I have a RiscPC ;-) >But probably not with a 486 DX2/66 - which was the case with the very first >RiscPC I ever saw. Which I probably saw before you too! I don't think so. I had my 486SX/33 card (the first PC card at all) before the DX2/66 came out, but I had it upgraded to an AMD 5x86/160 later. >It's not so interesting. The Welsh got bored of winning and the English got >bored of losing, so they signed a treaty to not attack each other. I'm not >entirely sure what the Welsh got out of it - but I know that we suddenly >had a Prince of Wales. Is there anyone who can remember all the British kings and princes anyway? >Maybe he was Welsh? I'm not sure, I haven't really studied it! I guess Prince Charles is English... >> Maybe I could be credited as "Mike the bookwork"? >"Mike the bookworm" sounds better. :) That's what I meant, but I was half asleep when I wrote that mail... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "I'd love to go out with you, but I've been scheduled for a karma transplant." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 00:51:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34061 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 00:51:01 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005050753.JAA29689@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <000366ccf7530037_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at May 4, 2000 05:50:38 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:53:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I know Transmeta marketing campaign it's hated everywhere (I also hate it) but I think it's still insteresting to try to learn about that "Code Morpher software" (it seems as they can't copyright dynamic binary translation they found a more sound name). If only a half of what they say Code Morpher is implementing it's true, we have found the more developed and complex dynarec ever made. And I also think that five years working on it (Transmeta was created in 1995) it's enough time to investigate a lot about dynarec. Therefore I'm being studying Crusoe docs all this week. For sure they are too vague, there is no real info about Crusoe CPU or Code Morpher software. They only talk about 3 or so hardware implementations to help dynarec (but that hardware isn't nothing new, but the same hardware P-II has software controlled). And when they talk about Code Morpher they are a lot of more imprecise, a dynarec with a profiler and an optimizer. They talk about a lot of kinds of optimizations, but are they really implemented? Last night I was trying to read Transmeta US Patent but I can't understand all that legal crap. What the patent is for? Patenting the combination of a processor and a software to emulate another architecture behaviour? This is nothing new, how can be patented? The patent doc also talks about a lot of kind of optimizations, since compiler theory optimizations to reordering, and others. I can't see how all this optimizations can be implemented. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 01:04:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34114 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 01:04:52 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:04:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005050753.JAA29689@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Last night I was trying to read Transmeta US Patent but I can't understand all > that legal crap. What the patent is for? Patenting the combination of a > processor and a software to emulate another architecture behaviour? This is > nothing new, how can be patented? You can patent anything that hasn't been patented, even if it's a common idea. Most often you'll get it rejected if it's too common, but we have a patent office in the US that grants patent for faster-than-light communication devices and blinking the cursor using an XOR instruction. > The patent doc also talks about a lot of kind of optimizations, since > compiler theory optimizations to reordering, and others. I can't see > how all this optimizations can be implemented. Nothing they are doing is revolutionary or new. I'd venture a guess that they are in many violations of Intel's patents, as many of the techniques they are touting as "new" were done in the early model Pentiums in the early 90's (and probably elsewhere, too). In short: Crusoe is a marketing ploy - nothing more. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 01:17:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34143 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 01:17:03 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <001301bfb669$d409da20$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:13:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Last night I was trying to read Transmeta US Patent but I can't understand all > > that legal crap. What the patent is for? Patenting the combination of a > > processor and a software to emulate another architecture behaviour? This is > > nothing new, how can be patented? > > You can patent anything that hasn't been patented, even if it's a common > idea. Most often you'll get it rejected if it's too common, but we have a > patent office in the US that grants patent for faster-than-light > communication devices and blinking the cursor using an XOR instruction. FTL communications? When did we discover that? I really must subscribe to New Scientist... > In short: Crusoe is a marketing ploy - nothing more. Too right. "Never mind about the product. Look who we've got working for us, guys. It's Linus! Wow! We must be great!" > -->Neil Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 01:24:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34191 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 01:24:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005050827.KAA30462@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 5, 2000 01:04:50 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:27:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > You can patent anything that hasn't been patented, even if it's a common > idea. Most often you'll get it rejected if it's too common, but we have a > patent office in the US that grants patent for faster-than-light > communication devices and blinking the cursor using an XOR instruction. > I can say now I hate patent offices. Too legal crap mixed with too much stupidity. Patent offices could be useful if they weren't carried as they are actually carried. > > The patent doc also talks about a lot of kind of optimizations, since > > compiler theory optimizations to reordering, and others. I can't see > > how all this optimizations can be implemented. > > Nothing they are doing is revolutionary or new. I'd venture a guess that > they are in many violations of Intel's patents, as many of the techniques > they are touting as "new" were done in the early model Pentiums in the > early 90's (and probably elsewhere, too). > > In short: Crusoe is a marketing ploy - nothing more. > I'm feeling something similar. All hardware techniques they have implemented aren't new: every out-of-order processor has a buffer for delayed writes, hardware register renaming (what they call shadowing) is already implemented in Pentium, use the MMU to write protect translated pages makes me laugh it's too obvious, and so on. They only take the same hardware and make it software controlled. IA-64 is already based in the same philosophy. And they don't talk about specific or really new optimizationn techniques. All about Code Morpher it's too vague, and even in the patent doc they only talk in general about dynarec, optimizations and previous works made. They don't say what are they really doing. There is any Crusoe product already released? But what I can't understand how the patent office has admited such a patent. BTW, as Code Morpher is now a TradeMark noone else can use it, we can still thank they didn't register "dynarec" ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 01:28:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34220 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 01:28:06 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:28:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005050827.KAA30462@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > idea. Most often you'll get it rejected if it's too common, but we have a > > patent office in the US that grants patent for faster-than-light > > communication devices and blinking the cursor using an XOR instruction. > I can say now I hate patent offices. Too legal crap mixed with too much > stupidity. Patent offices could be useful if they weren't carried as they > are actually carried. No, they're just too stupid to realize what is a good idea to patent and what isn't. Companies are patenting everything from the ridiculous to the ludicrous. > talk about specific or really new optimizationn techniques. All about Code > Morpher it's too vague, and even in the patent doc they only talk in general > about dynarec, optimizations and previous works made. They don't say what > are they really doing. Do you remember when Sega came out with "BLAST Processing" to give better graphics? They were claiming that "BLAST Processing" was different from the concepts of sprites but > But what I can't understand how the patent office has admited such a patent. > BTW, as Code Morpher is now a TradeMark noone else can use it, we can > still thank they didn't register "dynarec" ;) I thought about registering dynarec.com.... I might still do it if someone doesn't beat me to it. ;-) Hell, we can register "codemorpher.com", too because it's not taken! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 01:43:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34262 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 01:43:37 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005050846.KAA31486@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 5, 2000 01:28:05 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:46:10 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > No, they're just too stupid to realize what is a good idea to patent and > what isn't. Companies are patenting everything from the ridiculous to the > ludicrous. > Personally I don't like the will of companys to earn more money. It's better I don't continue in that way, or I will begin to talk about my feelings about capitalism ;) And perhaps are people listening ... :o > Do you remember when Sega came out with "BLAST Processing" to give better > graphics? They were claiming that "BLAST Processing" was different from > the concepts of sprites but > No I don't know anything about this. And your message has stoped just in the more interesting point. I think it will be fun to know what that BLAST Processing it's. > > But what I can't understand how the patent office has admited such a patent. > > BTW, as Code Morpher is now a TradeMark noone else can use it, we can > > still thank they didn't register "dynarec" ;) > > I thought about registering dynarec.com.... I might still do it if someone > doesn't beat me to it. ;-) Hell, we can register "codemorpher.com", too > because it's not taken! > Hey! I think it's a good idea. ;) In Spanish TV there is now an announcement about a company that register Internet Domains for you. The idea of registering "codemorpher.com" is still better. ;) You can then sell it to Transmeta for a lot of money ;)). You can also patent your new technique (better than let some else do it). Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 01:50:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA34278 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 01:50:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 01:50:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005050846.KAA31486@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > No, they're just too stupid to realize what is a good idea to patent and > > what isn't. Companies are patenting everything from the ridiculous to the > > ludicrous. > Personally I don't like the will of companys to earn more money. I can say that large corporations usually patent to use as armament when a company tries to do battle with them - not to make more money. > It's > better I don't continue in that way, or I will begin to talk about my > feelings about capitalism ;) And perhaps are people listening ... :o Oh come on. Capitalism isn't the issue here. Your true feelings are toward the greedy. Capitalism has some major advantages, but you've got to take the bad with the good. If it wasn't for capitalism, 16K would still be a lot of memory. ;-) Wait... Hm... that's beginning to sound good. As a side note, I really like how those low life limey fucks who vandalized a McDonalds were thinking they were being so anticapitalism, but seemed to have no problem with thievery and vandalism. Go figger. It's like abortion protesters killing doctors. > > Do you remember when Sega came out with "BLAST Processing" to give better > > graphics? They were claiming that "BLAST Processing" was different from > > the concepts of sprites but > No I don't know anything about this. And your message has stoped just in > the more interesting point. I think it will be fun to know what that BLAST > Processing it's. But really weren't. They were the same thing. ;-) > > I thought about registering dynarec.com.... I might still do it if someone > > doesn't beat me to it. ;-) Hell, we can register "codemorpher.com", too > > because it's not taken! > Hey! I think it's a good idea. ;) In Spanish TV there is now an announcement > about a company that register Internet Domains for you. Probably won't make any difference in the "real world" of the internet. Networksolutions pretty much has that stuff all bound up. > The idea of > registering "codemorpher.com" is still better. ;) You can then sell it > to Transmeta for a lot of money ;)). You can also patent your new technique > (better than let some else do it). Hm... extortion... I like it! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 02:21:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA34507 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 02:21:32 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005050921.LAA00149@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 5, 2000 01:50:39 am" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:21:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > It's > > better I don't continue in that way, or I will begin to talk about my > > feelings about capitalism ;) And perhaps are people listening ... :o > > Oh come on. Capitalism isn't the issue here. Your true feelings are toward > the greedy. Capitalism has some major advantages, but you've got to take > the bad with the good. If it wasn't for capitalism, 16K would still be a > lot of memory. ;-) Wait... Hm... that's beginning to sound good. > This is a dangerous zone ... I can think capitalism has some sense as an economic system, mainly knowing how the people is. Capitalism is good as it means competing and helps people motivate to get better results, but I still think there are better ways to put people to work. You say I don't like the greedy, and I agree with that, but I also think that capitalism it's responsible of a lot of the greedy that there is on the world. And better don't talk about global capitalism, this is a foolness so great that could destroy human race ... :o I think I'm being to serious here. Well some more. I know from chaotic systems order can be arised, but not necesarilly arises. Global capitalism, as ,it's spreaded mainly from US, with a little state control (and I don't say I like state control, but I still want some control) it's a chaotic system, if you think than order will arise without help I think you are wrong. Earth resources are limited and economy can't just grow for ever (what it's one of the main components of capitalism, without economy growing the system is destroyed, just think about inflation). I think planification (in a global sense) it's needed. The whole humanity should decide what are their objectives and then work for realice them. I think I have talked too much ... > As a side note, I really like how those low life limey fucks who > vandalized a McDonalds were thinking they were being so anticapitalism, > but seemed to have no problem with thievery and vandalism. Go figger. It's > like abortion protesters killing doctors. > > > > Do you remember when Sega came out with "BLAST Processing" to give better > > > graphics? They were claiming that "BLAST Processing" was different from > > > the concepts of sprites but > > No I don't know anything about this. And your message has stoped just in > > the more interesting point. I think it will be fun to know what that BLAST > > Processing it's. > > But really weren't. They were the same thing. ;-) > Then they were a bunch of liers ;) How many time were you laughing? > > The idea of > > registering "codemorpher.com" is still better. ;) You can then sell it > > to Transmeta for a lot of money ;)). You can also patent your new technique > > (better than let some else do it). > > Hm... extortion... I like it! > It's really evil ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 5 12:23:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA36409 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 12:23:47 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:23:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005050921.LAA00149@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > I can think capitalism has some sense as an economic system, mainly knowing > how the people is. Capitalism is good as it means competing and helps > people motivate to get better results, but I still think there are better > ways to put people to work. You say I don't like the greedy, and I agree > with that, but I also think that capitalism it's responsible of a lot of > the greedy that there is on the world. That's like saying gambling is responsible for a lot of people going broke with gambling problems. The problem is the people, not the gambling. Same deal with capitalism. What would you recommend as an alternative? One where no one has a chance of bettering themselves from the next guy (I.E. Communism)? > and economy can't just grow for ever (what it's one of the main > components of capitalism, without economy growing the system is > destroyed, just think about inflation). That's not quite true. Depending upon the market for that area of business, if it ebbs too much, it'll start to pick up steam. People don't stop buying food, for example... > I think planification (in a > global sense) it's needed. The whole humanity should decide what are > their objectives and then work for realice them. I think I have > talked too much ... Yeah, right. Like that'll happen. World society (and not just the US - *EVERY* country is guilty of individualism) has not evolved enough for this to have a snowball's chance in hell of working. When you've got countries that are working on racial issues that the US solved over 200 years ago (like Zimbabwe), this will never happen. Don't get me wrong - I wish a free market didn't exist. One where everyone DID band together and combine forces. But that isn't going to happen in this century or probably the next one after that. Individualism is both good and bad (as is banding together). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 7 14:49:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA46538 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:49:52 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 14:49:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! [NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hehehehe. Looks like it worked! I've registered dynarec.com. I'll put up a site with a tiny hard drive in the next few days dedicated to Dynamic recompilation. I'll move the list to there, as well as put up a web service for it. Want to collect your sites and place them here? I can give shell access to contributors. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:48:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Domain Registration Role Account Reply-To: hostmaster@internic.net To: neil@synthcom.com Cc: marc@ENGINET.COM Subject: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! [NIC-000507.7e7] Congratulations! Registration of the domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete and you are on your way toward making a name for yourself on the Internet! Below you will find a summary of your registration information. This email serves as a receipt for your recent purchase and confirmation that your order is complete. Make the most of your domain name registration! Check out http://www.networksolutions.com/catalog/ to learn more about valuable products, services and free resources offered by Network Solutions designed to help you maximize and promote your Internet presence. Thank you for registering your domain name with Network Solutions! Sincerely, Network Solutions Registration Services the dot com people You have entered into a binding agreement with Network Solutions. Network Solutions may take all remedies available, including collection agencies, to collect fees owed to us. ========================================================================== Neil Bradley (DYNAREC-DOM) 12327 SW Canvasback Way Beaverton, OR 97007 US Domain Name: DYNAREC.COM Administrative Contact: Bradley, Chris N (CNB3) neil@SYNTHCOM.COM (503) 579-3657 Technical Contact: Frajola, Marc (MF46) marc@ENGINET.COM (503) 292-9999 Billing Contact: Bradley, Chris N (CNB3) neil@SYNTHCOM.COM (503) 579-3657 Record last updated on 07-May-2000. Domain servers in listed order: NS.SYNTHCOM.COM 207.202.141.81 NS.RDROP.COM 199.2.210.241 ========================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 7 15:01:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA46586 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 15:01:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <000b01bfb877$d97e1100$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! [NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 23:59:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Hehehehe. Looks like it worked! I've registered dynarec.com. I'll put up a > site with a tiny hard drive in the next few days dedicated to Dynamic > recompilation. I'll move the list to there, as well as put up a web > service for it. Cool! Who did you use to register the domain with, BTW? I have to register a domain soon-ish... Was it direct with Network Solutions or did you use a middle-man? > Want to collect your sites and place them here? I can give shell access to > contributors. Would this involve me actually writing up some documents? :) Anyway, cool idea. Yep. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 7 15:21:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA46627 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 15:21:19 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! [NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003670ec777304e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 00:21:43 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Hehehehe. Looks like it worked! I've registered dynarec.com. I'll put up a >site with a tiny hard drive in the next few days dedicated to Dynamic >recompilation. I'll move the list to there, as well as put up a web >service for it. Very cool indeed! ;-) >Want to collect your sites and place them here? I can give shell access to >contributors. Nice idea. I'd like to put my DRFAQ there if you allow me to. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Economics is extremely useful as a form of employment for economists. -- John Kenneth Galbraith --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 7 16:03:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA46776 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 16:03:13 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 16:03:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! [NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) In-Reply-To: <000b01bfb877$d97e1100$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > site with a tiny hard drive in the next few days dedicated to Dynamic > > recompilation. I'll move the list to there, as well as put up a web > > service for it. > Cool! Who did you use to register the domain with, BTW? I have to register a > domain soon-ish... Was it direct with Network Solutions or did you use a > middle-man? Network solutions. No need to involve any middle men. ;-) > > Want to collect your sites and place them here? I can give shell access to > > contributors. > Would this involve me actually writing up some documents? :) Sure! Of course, I have to put the machine together - hopefully I can get to this fairly quickly... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 7 16:34:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA46860 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 16:34:17 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 16:34:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! [NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) In-Reply-To: <0003670ec777304e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Want to collect your sites and place them here? I can give shell access to > >contributors. > Nice idea. I'd like to put my DRFAQ there if you allow me to. Of course! You're all welcome to. I'll also move the dynarec mailing list to there as well. Just give me a few to get the machine up and running. I've got to piece it together. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 7 19:10:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA47197 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 19:10:41 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036711fa7c11e2_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 04:10:44 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Of course! You're all welcome to. I'll also move the dynarec mailing list >to there as well. Great then even I might be able to remember the location of the DRFAQ ;-) >Just give me a few to get the machine up and running. I've got to piece it >together. Sure. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Committees have become so important nowadays that subcommittees have to be appointed to do the work. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 01:17:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA47966 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 01:17:18 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005080819.KAA31006@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 5, 2000 12:23:46 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:19:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > That's like saying gambling is responsible for a lot of people going broke > with gambling problems. The problem is the people, not the gambling. Same > deal with capitalism. > You have a point here. > What would you recommend as an alternative? One where no one has a chance > of bettering themselves from the next guy (I.E. Communism)? > It seems Communism doesn't work or maybe people doesn't think or want that Communism works. I'm not sure I have enough knowledge to talk about alternatives. Perhaps a solution will be capitalism at low level and communism at high level. > > and economy can't just grow for ever (what it's one of the main > > components of capitalism, without economy growing the system is > > destroyed, just think about inflation). > > That's not quite true. Depending upon the market for that area of > business, if it ebbs too much, it'll start to pick up steam. People don't > stop buying food, for example... > But there is a limit on how many people could be. And also a limit in how many food can buy or consume. > > I think planification (in a > > global sense) it's needed. The whole humanity should decide what are > > their objectives and then work for realice them. I think I have > > talked too much ... > > Yeah, right. Like that'll happen. World society (and not just the US - > *EVERY* country is guilty of individualism) has not evolved enough for > this to have a snowball's chance in hell of working. When you've got > countries that are working on racial issues that the US solved over 200 > years ago (like Zimbabwe), this will never happen. > Yes, and in Spain still happens something similar that braindead nazis from E.T.A. who are still killing people because they talk against them. I don't know if you know about E.T.A. terrorist group, but do you know that the 'country' they want to free was ever from Spain, in fact they conquered the rest of Spain from the Islam. The nation they talk about was invented last century. And now their local government has nearly the freedom and power of a federated stated (as US states), a lot of different from Ireland. What happens it's they are racist and hate everyone who don't think the same they think, they hate people who come from other regions of Spain. Umm, sorry for that, but this weekend they killed a journalist and I'm a bit angry ... I think there are too many fools on Earth ... > Don't get me wrong - I wish a free market didn't exist. One where everyone > DID band together and combine forces. But that isn't going to happen in > this century or probably the next one after that. Individualism is both > good and bad (as is banding together). > The worst is that sometimes I think we don't have one or two centurys more. I like individualism but everyone with a bit of intelligence has to agree that everyone needs a society to survive, it's imposible to survive out of the civilization (or maybe very hard), perhaps we would try to not destroy it. Individualism comes from genes will to survive, survive to reproduce themselves, but destroying the humanity isn't the best chance of survive. Humans have the capacity to go farther than gene orders, perhaps we use that capacity. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 01:32:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA48019 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 01:32:56 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005080834.KAA01729@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! [NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 7, 2000 02:49:51 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:34:06 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL76a (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Hehehehe. Looks like it worked! I've registered dynarec.com. I'll put up a > site with a tiny hard drive in the next few days dedicated to Dynamic > recompilation. I'll move the list to there, as well as put up a web > service for it. > It's really good, there is now an easy to learn domain about dynarec. Dynarec could now be spreaded all around the world ;) Luckyly it wasn't used yet. > Want to collect your sites and place them here? I can give shell access to > contributors. > I think I have nothing to collect ... But MIKE do you think that we could copy dynarec docs from Embra, Shade and so to a single page? It would be easy to access them. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 02:50:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA48356 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 02:50:32 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005080834.KAA01729@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000367185b53c030_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005080834.KAA01729@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 11:47:19 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >It's really good, there is now an easy to learn domain about dynarec. >Dynarec could now be spreaded all around the world ;) That's the idea! ;-) >Luckyly it wasn't used yet. Quite astonishing indeed, since nowadays almost every site name seems to be reserved. >I think I have nothing to collect ... But MIKE do you think that we could >copy dynarec docs from Embra, Shade and so to a single page? It would be >easy to access them. I'm not sure if it's legal to copy them, but we can provide links for sure. Maybe we should keep your idea in mind though, as one or two pages I had links for simply disapeared. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e If you live to the age of a hundred you have it made because very few people die past the age of a hundred. -- George Burns --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 05:36:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA48625 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 05:36:20 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3916B28B.76A51C3F@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 14:26:51 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, Whoever released that "ILOVEYOU" virus should go to hell - they shut down my mail server since Thursday because of it! The amount of backlogged mail arriving at the moment is phenomenal. The good thing is that this shows I have the right type of friends - I never recieved this virus at my home account. However, it shows that I have the wrong type of work collegues - I've recieved three copies so far! Mind you, they're all from the France branch (which brings along an interesting question - what are they doing with my e-mail address?). Those damn French... :)) That'll explain why the list activity has been low for so long. :)) > > Cool! Who did you use to register the domain with, BTW? I have to register a > > domain soon-ish... Was it direct with Network Solutions or did you use a > > middle-man? > > Network solutions. No need to involve any middle men. ;-) Okay. So, if you don't mind me asking, how much did that cost? And how long have you got the domain name for? > > Would this involve me actually writing up some documents? :) > > Sure! Damn! ;) > Of course, I have to put the machine together - hopefully I can get to > this fairly quickly... Good luck with it. I'll probably write up some documents this week. Seeing as I can't do any programming at the moment... Be warned, never share a flat with someone else who owns a computer. They may feel at liberty to borrow some software - and then lend it to others. I wouldn't mind - except it was my VC++ CD. So I've done nothing this weekend. GRR! :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 05:39:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA48642 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 05:39:36 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3916B432.E64AFA8D@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 14:33:54 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) References: <200005080834.KAA01729@pons.ac.upc.es> <000367185b53c030_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > >Luckyly it wasn't used yet. > > Quite astonishing indeed, since nowadays almost every site name seems to be > reserved. Yes, this was quite lucky indeed! > >I think I have nothing to collect ... But MIKE do you think that we could > >copy dynarec docs from Embra, Shade and so to a single page? It would be > >easy to access them. > > I'm not sure if it's legal to copy them, but we can provide links for sure. > Maybe we should keep your idea in mind though, as one or two pages I had > links for simply disapeared. The best idea is to archive them and put them on the site. Then if, for any reason, any of the links break and you can't find the new ones then you can link to them. This sounds the best (and most sensible) idea. Hmm. Given that I have actually designed quite a few sites now (some for businesses as well) and been paid for it, maybe I can design some sort of layout for the thing. Just an idea sort of thing. I'd normally do it in raw HTML - but I haven't got the time to mess around with that at the moment, so I'll just use FP2000. Assuming you want me to do this, does anyone have some sort of colour scheme that they'd like to see - or one that they wouldn't? I know that I'm usually inclined to use inordinate amounts of black - I seem to like black. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 07:24:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA48958 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 07:24:01 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3916B432.E64AFA8D@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003671c389ece5b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005080834.KAA01729@pons.ac.upc.es> <000367185b53c030_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3916B432.E64AFA8D@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 16:23:56 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >The best idea is to archive them and put them on the site. Then if, for any >reason, any of the links break and you can't find the new ones then you can >link to them. This sounds the best (and most sensible) idea. I think that's a good compromise. >Hmm. Given that I have actually designed quite a few sites now (some for >businesses as well) and been paid for it, maybe I can design some sort of >layout for the thing. Just an idea sort of thing. If you want to do it we won't hinder you, right NB? ;-) Could you provide any examples of your work? >I'd normally do it in raw HTML - Me too, but as I'm not a designer I somewhat use HTML a bit like LaTeX, which results in well-formated but realtively boring pages... >but I haven't got the time to mess around with that at the moment, >so I'll just use FP2000. Front Page? Not another Microsith product! If I cannot display the pages with NetPositive I'll kill you! ;-) >Assuming you want me to do this, How did you guess? ;-) >does anyone have some sort of colour >scheme that they'd like to see - or one that they wouldn't? Since I'm not my niece, please don't use any pink! ;-) >I know that I'm >usually inclined to use inordinate amounts of black - I seem to like black. >:) I seem to like pages with balck background as well, but it's a bit awkward to print these pages. So either we should provide printable versions of the important documents as well, or stick to a different colour sceme. I guess it would be fairly easy to change the colour settings in my DRFAQ eg. to have two different versions, so I wouldn't have too much problems with a black background. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Don't go surfing in South Dakota for a while. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 07:24:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA48962 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 07:24:02 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3916B28B.76A51C3F@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003671c1967c646_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <3916B28B.76A51C3F@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 16:15:13 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Whoever released that "ILOVEYOU" virus should go to hell - they shut down >my mail server since Thursday because of it! The amount of backlogged mail >arriving at the moment is phenomenal. I had more luck. But one of my friends who works for Siemens came back from work at 11 PM after the first day (I think he starts at 7 AM), and he told me that at KWU only 1000 computers of 5000 work... I'm glad that I don't use Outlook at home and that there are no computer viruses for BeOS yet. I still wonder why so many use Outlook as it's know to act like a virus and worm magnet! >The good thing is that this shows I have the right type of friends - I >never recieved this virus at my home account. Neither did I. >However, it shows that I have >the wrong type of work collegues - I've recieved three copies so far! There are always three things... BTW, my fiend also told me that one guy at Siemens heard that the virus is a VBScript, so he deleted everything related to VB on the computer and wondered why it didn't work anymore... >Mind >you, they're all from the France branch (which brings along an interesting >question - what are they doing with my e-mail address?). Those damn >French... :)) Hehe. >That'll explain why the list activity has been low for so long. :)) Bad boy! >Okay. So, if you don't mind me asking, how much did that cost? And how long >have you got the domain name for? I guess you have to pay on a per yeat basis for a domain, but I might be wrong. >> > Would this involve me actually writing up some documents? :) >> Sure! >Damn! ;) Why do you ask such rhetorical questions if you don't want to hear the answer? ;-) >Good luck with it. I'll probably write up some documents this week. Seeing >as I can't do any programming at the moment... Be warned, never share a >flat with someone else who owns a computer. They may feel at liberty to >borrow some software - and then lend it to others. I wouldn't mind - except >it was my VC++ CD. So I've done nothing this weekend. GRR! :-/ Since I noticed that you always seem to need the things you just lend someone, I'm very careful who I lend my books and software... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Bathquake, n.: The violent quake that rattles the entire house when the water faucet is turned on to a certain point. -- Rich Hall, "Sniglets" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 08:29:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA49159 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 08:29:12 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3916DB89.F8FB5539@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 17:21:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) References: <3916B28B.76A51C3F@eurocopter.de> <0003671c1967c646_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > There are always three things... > BTW, my fiend also told me that one guy at Siemens heard that the virus is a > VBScript, so he deleted everything related to VB on the computer and wondered > why it didn't work anymore... Hehehe! > >> > Would this involve me actually writing up some documents? :) > >> Sure! > >Damn! ;) > > Why do you ask such rhetorical questions if you don't want to hear the > answer? ;-) British nature. Sorry. :) > >Good luck with it. I'll probably write up some documents this week. Seeing > >as I can't do any programming at the moment... Be warned, never share a > >flat with someone else who owns a computer. They may feel at liberty to > >borrow some software - and then lend it to others. I wouldn't mind - except > >it was my VC++ CD. So I've done nothing this weekend. GRR! :-/ > > Since I noticed that you always seem to need the things you just lend > someone, I'm very careful who I lend my books and software... Yes, but the point was that I wasn't asked. I didn't even know it had gone! :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 08:48:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA49231 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 08:48:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3916DB89.F8FB5539@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003671d618ca37e_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <3916B28B.76A51C3F@eurocopter.de> <0003671c1967c646_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3916DB89.F8FB5539@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 17:46:58 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Why do you ask such rhetorical questions if you don't want to hear the >> answer? ;-) >British nature. Sorry. :) This wasn't mentioned by Grizimek! ;-) >> Since I noticed that you always seem to need the things you just lend >> someone, I'm very careful who I lend my books and software... >Yes, but the point was that I wasn't asked. I didn't even know it had gone! >:-/ That's bad! I guess I would go rampage in that case... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e If you push the "extra ice" button on the soft drink vending machine, you won't get any ice. If you push the "no ice" button, you'll get ice, but no cup. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 13:50:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA50425 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 13:50:53 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:50:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005080819.KAA31006@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > What would you recommend as an alternative? One where no one has a chance > > of bettering themselves from the next guy (I.E. Communism)? > It seems Communism doesn't work or maybe people doesn't think or want that > Communism works. I'm not sure I have enough knowledge to talk about > alternatives. Perhaps a solution will be capitalism at low level and > communism at high level. Actually, I think Communism can work, just not Marxist Communism. The reason that any form of Communism can't work in today's world is that Communism's standards are quite minimal. Until we can maintain a very high standard for everyone, Communism can't work. I don't think those who have a high standard of living would want to step it down. I think the only thing that will cause Communism to work is the invention of the replicator. > > That's not quite true. Depending upon the market for that area of > > business, if it ebbs too much, it'll start to pick up steam. People don't > > stop buying food, for example... > But there is a limit on how many people could be. And also a limit in > how many food can buy or consume. But my point is that there is a critical mass point on both ends. If economy gets too bad, something will cause it to boose. And if it gets too good, it'll drop and become volatile. It has a way of rowkring itself out. > century. And now their local government has nearly the freedom and power of > a federated stated (as US states), a lot of different from Ireland. What > happens it's they are racist and hate everyone who don't think the same they > think, they hate people who come from other regions of Spain. Umm, sorry > for that, but this weekend they killed a journalist and I'm a bit angry ... > I think there are too many fools on Earth ... I wasn't aware of this, but it doesn't surprise me one bit. > > Don't get me wrong - I wish a free market didn't exist. One where everyone > > DID band together and combine forces. But that isn't going to happen in > > this century or probably the next one after that. Individualism is both > > good and bad (as is banding together). > The worst is that sometimes I think we don't have one or two centurys more. I'm sure that people thought that during the Dark Ages, but I don't think it's true. If anything, global communication is increasing dramatically. Twenty years ago, I hadn't spoken to anyone outside the US. Now I do it on a daily basis. If anything is going to cause a world melting pot, the Internet is the start. > I like individualism but everyone with a bit of intelligence has to > agree that everyone needs a society to survive, it's imposible to > survive out of the civilization (or maybe very hard), perhaps we would > try to not destroy it. Individualism comes from genes will to survive, > survive to reproduce themselves, but destroying the humanity isn't the > best chance of survive. Humans have the capacity to go farther than > gene orders, perhaps we use that capacity. I see several things that impede the entire world from moving forward: * Race/heritage pride * Religion * Tradition This is what all wars and problems are caused by. I have serious issues with just about every religion. I can't stand racial hatred or racial pride. And people who practice "Tradition" just for the sake of their "heriatge" just annoy the hell out of me. For example, in the Northwest we have the Makaw (sp?) native Americans who are now whaling. There hasn't been whaling for over 70 years in the Northwest, but these boneheads are saying "It's our right! It's our heritage!" when none of the current whalers were even sperm when it was practiced. I was born in this fucking country too, but it doesn't give me the right to practice stupid rituals performed by my ancestors. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 13:51:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA50439 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 13:51:48 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:51:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! [NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200005080834.KAA01729@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > site with a tiny hard drive in the next few days dedicated to Dynamic > > recompilation. I'll move the list to there, as well as put up a web > > service for it. > It's really good, there is now an easy to learn domain about dynarec. Dynarec > could now be spreaded all around the world ;) Luckyly it wasn't used yet. I couldn't get the damn machine to boot off the CDROM! How annoying! I'm putting together another machine tonight to see if I can get it running. Shouldn't take long! So who here is HTML/graphics savvy? I suck at it, but I can provide nice content. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 13:53:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA50449 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 13:53:16 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:53:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) In-Reply-To: <3916B28B.76A51C3F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Whoever released that "ILOVEYOU" virus should go to hell - they shut down > my mail server since Thursday because of it! The amount of backlogged mail > arriving at the moment is phenomenal. How can this happen? Did they just overload it? Anyway, I keep telling people: Don't click on shit you don't know about - even if it's from someone you trust! I haven't seen it here at work nor at home. > Okay. So, if you don't mind me asking, how much did that cost? And how long > have you got the domain name for? $35/year and it's renewable on a yearly basis. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 13:53:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA50460 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 13:53:59 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:53:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3916B432.E64AFA8D@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Assuming you want me to do this, does anyone have some sort of colour > scheme that they'd like to see - or one that they wouldn't? I know that I'm > usually inclined to use inordinate amounts of black - I seem to like black. > :) Dark. Slick. Sleek. Easy to use. I personally like black, silver, and blue. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 13:55:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA50478 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 13:55:38 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:55:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) In-Reply-To: <0003671c389ece5b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Hmm. Given that I have actually designed quite a few sites now (some for > >businesses as well) and been paid for it, maybe I can design some sort of > >layout for the thing. Just an idea sort of thing. > If you want to do it we won't hinder you, right NB? ;-) No, of course not. ;-) > >but I haven't got the time to mess around with that at the moment, > >so I'll just use FP2000. > Front Page? Not another Microsith product! As long as it doesn't create shitty HTML, I have no problem with it, but FP tends to do that. > I seem to like pages with balck background as well, but it's a bit awkward to > print these pages. So either we should provide printable versions of the > important documents as well, or stick to a different colour sceme. They still print out just fine, though, as long as it's text and not graphcis. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 14:05:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50541 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:05:43 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:05:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Dynarec server Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com I'll be setting it up tonight. Some notes: * It'll be running FreeBSD 4.0 * It'll be running the latest Apache server software * It'll have shell accounts so we can maintain individual pages if needed * It can handle email addresses (I.E. neil@dynarec.com) * It'll have an anonymous FTP server * It'll have about 4 gigabytes free Contributors (or planned contributors), please contact me so we can get password and account stuff set up. So who is our web master? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 14:36:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50643 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:36:54 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec server From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003672238dc0ccd_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 23:33:30 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I'll be setting it up tonight. Some notes: >* It'll be running FreeBSD 4.0 Then it's stable ;-) >* It'll be running the latest Apache server software Cheap and fast. >* It'll have shell accounts so we can maintain individual pages if > needed How about password protected FTP? Could be a bit easier to transfer new pages. BTW, how can I maintain pages via shell account since I normally do that with FTP anyway? >* It can handle email addresses (I.E. neil@dynarec.com) Nice. >* It'll have an anonymous FTP server Good, no crap HTML downloads. >* It'll have about 4 gigabytes free Should be absolutely enough. >Contributors (or planned contributors), please contact me so we can get >password and account stuff set up. You can add me to the list. >So who is our web master? NG? I can make the deputy and hope that Eric doesn't shoot the sheriff ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Equal bytes for women. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 14:36:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50651 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:36:54 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003672209c88e94_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 23:20:20 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I couldn't get the damn machine to boot off the CDROM! How annoying! BIOS too old? I'm a bit pissed of as well when I have to use bootdisks on some computers because they won't be able to boot fromthe CD as they should nowadays... >So who here is HTML/graphics savvy? I suck at it, but I can provide nice >content. ;-) I guess NG almost volunteered for it ;-) I could do some additional stuff, but I'm not a perfect web designer... >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Ducharme's Axiom: If you view your problem closely enough you will recognize yourself as part of the problem. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 14:36:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50660 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:36:55 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003672210929417_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 23:22:14 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Dark. Slick. Sleek. Easy to use. Just what we want ;-) >I personally like black, silver, and blue. ;-) I'm not sure how well silver works on web pages, but I certainly like black and blue as well. Wasn't there a Mike and the Mechanics song called "Black and Blue"? >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e I've known him as a man, as an adolescent and as a child -- sometimes on the same day. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 14:36:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50664 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:36:55 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM iscomplete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003672224ced808_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 23:27:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> Front Page? Not another Microsith product! >As long as it doesn't create shitty HTML, I have no problem with it, but >FP tends to do that. That's what I'm afraid of... I don't know if that's related to one of these tools, but recently a page told me that I should use a browser with JavaScript when I tried to view it with NetPositive. So I launched it in Opera (which has JavaScript) only to get another message telling me that my browser isn't supported and I should use the latest Netscape Communicator or Internet Explorer instead. This sucks! >They still print out just fine, though, as long as it's text and not >graphics. Sure? When I did a print preview of a page with white latters and black background in Netscape I only saw a white sheet with the links only because these weren't white. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 14:41:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50696 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:41:01 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:41:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) In-Reply-To: <0003672209c88e94_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I couldn't get the damn machine to boot off the CDROM! How annoying! > BIOS too old? I'm a bit pissed of as well when I have to use bootdisks on > some computers because they won't be able to boot fromthe CD as they should > nowadays... No BIOS update for this motherboard. It doesn't support El Torrito boot sectors. ;-( > >So who here is HTML/graphics savvy? I suck at it, but I can provide nice > >content. ;-) > I guess NG almost volunteered for it ;-) > I could do some additional stuff, but I'm not a perfect web designer... I can do content. I can't do "pretty". More like, I won't do pretty. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 14:42:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50706 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:42:36 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:42:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec server In-Reply-To: <0003672238dc0ccd_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Forgot to mention majordomo, too... > >* It'll have shell accounts so we can maintain individual pages if > > needed > How about password protected FTP? Could be a bit easier to transfer new > pages. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Each individual who has an account on the site will have the ability to FTP with a username/login of their own (and be dumped to their home directory). Is that what you meant? > BTW, how can I maintain pages via shell account since I normally do that with > FTP anyway? You can FTP to your own account or I could make the HTML "account" writable by all owners. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 15:38:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA50972 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 15:38:29 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec server From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036722fdff7d05_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:28:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> How about password protected FTP? Could be a bit easier to transfer new >> pages. >I'm not sure what you mean by this. Each individual who has an account on >the site will have the ability to FTP with a username/login of their own >(and be dumped to their home directory). Is that what you meant? Yup, that's what I mean, silly me! >You can FTP to your own account or I could make the HTML "account" >writable by all owners. Hmm, both has it's advantages and disadvantages. Maybe we could have both: A section for each contributer which can only be changed by the owner, and a "news" section where any member can post important events without having to contact the webmaster. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Of all the animals, the boy is the most unmanageable. -- Plato --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 8 15:38:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA50979 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 8 May 2000 15:38:31 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM iscomplete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <000367230b7c2a76_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:32:24 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >No BIOS update for this motherboard. It doesn't support El Torrito boot >sectors. ;-( I didn't even know that there are different types of boot sectors... >[HTML] >I can do content. I can't do "pretty". More like, I won't do pretty. Pretty is a bit relative. I hate those pages that only have cool looks but no content behind, but I'm certainly not a friend of ugly pure-content pages either. It has to be a good comprimise, but I get the opinion that sites are more and more looks then content... >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e District of Columbia pedestrians who leap over passing autos to escape injury, and then strike the car as they come down, are liable for any damage inflicted on the vehicle. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 00:16:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52190 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 00:16:28 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3917B7A1.4A62B196@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 09:00:49 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec server References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > * It'll be running FreeBSD 4.0 Okay, cool. I'm pretty used to UNIX now so I shouldn't get stuck. :) > * It'll be running the latest Apache server software Will there be CGI access - and would you mind CGI? It would mean that we could have a HTML entry page to update the news page (and that sort of thing). > * It'll have shell accounts so we can maintain individual pages if > needed Okay, cool. > * It can handle email addresses (I.E. neil@dynarec.com) Er... this would get confusing. Would you mind if you had neilb@dynarec.com and I had neilg@dynarec.com - just so that people don't get confused? > Contributors (or planned contributors), please contact me so we can get > password and account stuff set up. Er... Hi! ;) > So who is our web master? I can do it - unless someone else would like to... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 00:17:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52201 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 00:17:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3917B484.7B44CEB2@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:47:32 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM iscomplete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > If you want to do it we won't hinder you, right NB? ;-) > > No, of course not. ;-) I hate putting my foot in it... :)) > > Front Page? Not another Microsith product! > > As long as it doesn't create shitty HTML, I have no problem with it, but > FP tends to do that. I actually thought the same about FP until I saw FP2000. It produces surprisingly good HTML. It's not as good as hand written code - but it doesn't cover the HTML file in crap either. Apparantly the best program for generating really tidy HTML is DreamWeaver3 - which I have a copy of but I've never used. But that's not surprising. I've got games and films there which I also have never used. Maybe I can give it a go tonight... :) > > I seem to like pages with balck background as well, but it's a bit awkward to > > print these pages. So either we should provide printable versions of the > > important documents as well, or stick to a different colour sceme. > > They still print out just fine, though, as long as it's text and not > graphcis. So long as you remember to invert the colours (so that black becomes white) then I agree, they print out fine. And you can set up IE to not print out the background - not sure about Netscape though... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 00:18:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52212 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 00:18:33 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3917B1E0.CC8FAB4E@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:36:16 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7](fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > > Whoever released that "ILOVEYOU" virus should go to hell - they shut down > > my mail server since Thursday because of it! The amount of backlogged mail > > arriving at the moment is phenomenal. > > How can this happen? Did they just overload it? No, they just turned off the server. Like many companies did - including Microsoft! > Anyway, I keep telling people: Don't click on shit you don't know about - > even if it's from someone you trust! I haven't seen it here at work nor at > home. I'd be very concerned if I had recieved an attachment in an e-mail like that. I'd have probably dropped into DOS and gone into the "Inbox" file to see what I'd recieved. And if I didn't know what it was, I'd have left it alone! > > Okay. So, if you don't mind me asking, how much did that cost? And how long > > have you got the domain name for? > > $35/year and it's renewable on a yearly basis. That's... pretty cheap. Hmm... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 00:18:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52220 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 00:18:41 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3917AEEE.43510FE@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:23:42 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > So who here is HTML/graphics savvy? I suck at it, but I can provide nice > content. ;-) That'd be me then - unless someone else wants to do it! Urgh, I was going to do something last night as a skeleton design - but I went out drinking instead. And now I need to drink water. A lot of water... :o Anyway, I'll try and finish some sort of skeleton design tonight - then we can all discuss it and see what needs changing and adding etc. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 00:20:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52244 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 00:20:46 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <3917B8D9.D52F7213@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 09:06:01 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) References: <200005080834.KAA01729@pons.ac.upc.es> <000367185b53c030_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3916B432.E64AFA8D@eurocopter.de> <0003671c389ece5b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Could you provide any examples of your work? Probably the most notable piece of work would be http://www.s3p.co.uk - most of the HTML wasn't implemented by me, but the design was all mine. Except the bit at the bottom (the bottom frame), that wasn't. :) > >but I haven't got the time to mess around with that at the moment, > >so I'll just use FP2000. > > Front Page? Not another Microsith product! > If I cannot display the pages with NetPositive I'll kill you! ;-) I'm creating a skeleton page tonight - if you can't see that then I can change. :) > >does anyone have some sort of colour > >scheme that they'd like to see - or one that they wouldn't? > > Since I'm not my niece, please don't use any pink! ;-) Damn! And I wanted to use all of those Barbie graphics too... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 02:06:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA53000 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 02:06:44 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 02:06:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: Don't freak out Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Northwest Link's uplink is having major problems right now. Should be sorted out in 12 or so hours, so don't go flooding the list with "Test" or any of that other useless message crap. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 05:35:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA53459 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 05:35:46 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM iscomplete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3917B484.7B44CEB2@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003672e838c57be_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <3917B484.7B44CEB2@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 14:13:23 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I hate putting my foot in it... :)) And we are pleased that you did it ;-) >I actually thought the same about FP until I saw FP2000. It produces >surprisingly good HTML. It's not as good as hand written code - but it >doesn't cover the HTML file in crap either. Astonishing! >Apparantly the best program for generating really tidy HTML is DreamWeaver3 >- which I have a copy of but I've never used. But that's not surprising. >I've got games and films there which I also have never used. Maybe I can >give it a go tonight... :) Might be the right occasion ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e ... But we've only fondled the surface of that subject. -- Virginia Masters --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 05:35:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA53469 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 05:35:49 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec server From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3917B7A1.4A62B196@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003672e8ceda180_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <3917B7A1.4A62B196@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 14:16:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Will there be CGI access - and would you mind CGI? It would mean that we >could have a HTML entry page to update the news page (and that sort of >thing). CGI for news might be handy but who writes the script? >Er... this would get confusing. Would you mind if you had neilb@dynarec.com >and I had neilg@dynarec.com - just so that people don't get confused? Or Neil uses "chris@dynarec.com" but I bet he refuses to do it ;-) >> So who is our web master? >I can do it - unless someone else would like to... Just do it - Neil! ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "This process can check if this value is zero, and if it is, it does something child-like." -- Forbes Burkowski, Computer Science 454 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 05:35:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA53478 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 05:35:53 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3917B8D9.D52F7213@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003672e90ab2b53_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005080834.KAA01729@pons.ac.upc.es> <000367185b53c030_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3916B432.E64AFA8D@eurocopter.de> <0003671c389ece5b_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <3917B8D9.D52F7213@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 14:17:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >Probably the most notable piece of work would be http://www.s3p.co.uk - >most of the HTML wasn't implemented by me, but the design was all mine. >Except the bit at the bottom (the bottom frame), that wasn't. :) I'll have a look. >I'm creating a skeleton page tonight - if you can't see that then I can >change. :) OK. >> Since I'm not my niece, please don't use any pink! ;-) >Damn! And I wanted to use all of those Barbie graphics too... :)) BTW, you don't know my niece, do you? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Non-sequiturs make me eat lampshades. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 05:37:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA53487 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 05:37:18 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <006a01bfb98f$6b10fac0$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Crusoe Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:20:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com -----Mensaje original----- De: Neil Bradley Para: dynarec@synthcom.com Fecha: lunes 8 de mayo de 2000 22:49 Asunto: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe >Actually, I think Communism can work, just not Marxist Communism. The >reason that any form of Communism can't work in today's world is that >Communism's standards are quite minimal. Until we can maintain a very high >standard for everyone, Communism can't work. I don't think those who have >a high standard of living would want to step it down. > But still Communism it´s better than wild capitalism. You just have to take a look at Rusia. While they were communist they had only the more needed for living, now there are millions without enough food to live. The situation in Rusia I think shows how capitalism can easily become without control, millions of peoples living in poor conditions while some hundred become too rich. >I think the only thing that will cause Communism to work is the invention >of the replicator. > What a replicator is? Something like the machines from Star Trek to produce food and equipment, perhaps direct energy conversion? I think it will take a long time until it will be invented ;) > >But my point is that there is a critical mass point on both ends. If >economy gets too bad, something will cause it to boose. And if it gets too >good, it'll drop and become volatile. It has a way of rowkring itself out. > But this kind of movements and a situation so volatile and without control means a lot of people suffering, think about 29 crack. >I'm sure that people thought that during the Dark Ages, but I don't think >it's true. If anything, global communication is increasing >dramatically. Twenty years ago, I hadn't spoken to anyone outside the >US. Now I do it on a daily basis. If anything is going to cause a world >melting pot, the Internet is the start. > Perhaps we have chance here. About Dark Ages I don´t think they had enough time to worry about future: wars, famine, diseases, a poor education level ... I hope never happen again. >I see several things that impede the entire world from moving forward: > >* Race/heritage pride >* Religion >* Tradition > >This is what all wars and problems are caused by. I have serious issues >with just about every religion. I can't stand racial hatred or racial >pride. And people who practice "Tradition" just for the sake of their >"heriatge" just annoy the hell out of me. > I don´t like any kind of religion. Oh well, more exactly I hate any kind of religion builded around an organization as the Catholicism. Personal religions, well, everyone is a bit crazy I can support that, but organized religions are dangerous. The only religion that I can say could like me are some forms of Budism (as Zen), they are more a way of live than a real religion. Religion has been one of the worst things that have happened to the humanity. And the worst religions of ever have been monoteist religions, and more exactly cristianism and Islam. Sometimes I think that it would be better that Roman or Greece kind of Gods will persisted. They had more variation of religions and I think there were more freedom to choice and less fights about religion. Tradition for me is to mantein something useless only because everybody before you have done it. I know there are good traditions and it´s good to preserve some traditions. But people uses traditions to avoid changes that are needed to create a better world. People is usually afraid of changes, and I can´t understand why. Traditions are an excuse to avoid changes. Also are used to create artificial difference between groups of people: they don´t have the same traditions as us, they are aliens. I hate this way of thinking. >For example, in the Northwest we have the Makaw (sp?) native Americans who >are now whaling. There hasn't been whaling for over 70 years in the >Northwest, but these boneheads are saying "It's our right! It's our >heritage!" when none of the current whalers were even sperm when it was >practiced. I was born in this fucking country too, but it doesn't give me >the right to practice stupid rituals performed by my ancestors. > Oh well, japanese say they kill whales for investigation and some nothern europe countrys say the same. Just something said to justify something that can´t be justified. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 05:41:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA53516 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 05:41:47 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <009101bfb990$c1357b00$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM iscomplete![NIC-000507.7e7] (fwd) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:29:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >>[HTML] >>I can do content. I can't do "pretty". More like, I won't do pretty. > >Pretty is a bit relative. I hate those pages that only have cool looks but no >content behind, but I'm certainly not a friend of ugly pure-content pages >either. It has to be a good comprimise, but I get the opinion that sites are >more and more looks then content... > For hundreds of pages without content just talk with me ;) I like to write and I don´t worry if what I write has sense ;) Very useful for writing university dissertions, the readers become bored easily and they don´t keep reading. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 05:42:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA53524 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 05:42:01 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <00a001bfb991$78274820$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor (R.0.B.) Moya" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Dynarec server Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:35:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >> * It can handle email addresses (I.E. neil@dynarec.com) > >Er... this would get confusing. Would you mind if you had neilb@dynarec.com >and I had neilg@dynarec.com - just so that people don't get confused? > Perhaps would be better a shared address spiceboys@dynarec.com ;)) Erm ..., sorry for the joke, I couldn´t stay without saying it. >> Contributors (or planned contributors), please contact me so we can get >> password and account stuff set up. > >Er... Hi! ;) > I would like to contribute but I don´t know how ... are you interested in a Spanish section? And if you want someone to write a document about anything just call me, I´m a bad writer (and my english isn´t perfect) but I like write. >> So who is our web master? > >I can do it - unless someone else would like to... > These time I won´t help you ;) I'm not good with HTML. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 05:52:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA53579 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 05:52:45 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Dynarec server From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <00a001bfb991$78274820$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Message-Id: <0003672f0e083c8c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <00a001bfb991$78274820$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 14:52:06 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I would like to contribute but I don´t know how ... are you interested in a >Spanish section? Well, a Spanish section doesn't provide me with new information, but that's only because my Spanish is so bad! ;-) I think Spanish section would be nice if you think that there could be enough people interested in it. >These time I won´t help you ;) I'm not good with HTML. Seems it's just Neil and me in this case... >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Good day for overcoming obstacles. Try a steeplechase. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 06:04:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA53630 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 06:04:21 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005091306.PAA15459@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec server In-Reply-To: <0003672f0e083c8c_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at May 9, 2000 02:52:06 pm" To: dynarec@synthcom.com Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:06:20 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pons.ac.upc.es id PAA15459 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by synthcom.com id GAA53627 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >I would like to contribute but I don´t know how ... are you interested in a > >Spanish section? > > Well, a Spanish section doesn't provide me with new information, but that's > only because my Spanish is so bad! ;-) > I think Spanish section would be nice if you think that there could be enough > people interested in it. > People interested in dynarec who doesn't knows English? I can think in anyone. And everyone who knows Spanish will know also English because is the first international language. So in fact it is something useless. I can think in anyone who lives in Spain interested in emulation and don't know english. Perhaps could make the reading more easy (if there is a good translation) but ... It's the problem I have, I don't know how to contribute. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 10:59:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA54688 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 10:59:16 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec server From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005091306.PAA15459@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000367335863e888_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005091306.PAA15459@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 19:59:14 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >People interested in dynarec who doesn't knows English? I can think in >anyone. >And everyone who knows Spanish will know also English because is the first >international language. >So in fact it is something useless. I can think in anyone who lives in >Spain interested in emulation and don't know english. Perhaps could make >the reading more easy (if there is a good translation) but ... I guess you are right. Many people who work with computers understand English relatively well, and those interested in the techincal aspects of emulation should be even better because most of the terms are actually English. >It's the problem I have, I don't know how to contribute. You did many contributions to this list so if you are willing to contribute to the site as well I bet we find something interesting for you. BTW, it seems that the server is up and running. http://www.dynarec.com/ only results in the Apache test page so far, but that shows at least that the site can already be accessed. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e You know you've been spending too much time on the computer when your friend misdates a check, and you suggest adding a "++" to fix it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 13:47:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA55431 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:47:06 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <009801bfb9ff$b460b920$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005091306.PAA15459@pons.ac.upc.es> <000367335863e888_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: DYNAREC: Skeleton site Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:22:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFBA05.18E496A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFBA05.18E496A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Here is just a quick site that I've knocked up. You can see the structure I'm trying to get to if you look at the links - I like structure. The title can be changed, it was just something I created quickly. I actually think it's quite a nice effect, but it may not be what we're aiming for. I don't care, it only took me something like 5 minutes to actually create. I know I can make it have a semi-3D look as well which may be a little more interesting. But it's not so important. Let me know what you think of the style and colouring! I see no reason why this wouldn't work in all browsers - but if it doesn't, tell me. I'll be surprised though... :) Also, this was created in FP2000. See, I wasn't lying. The HTML is pretty good. I could create much better myself by hand - but it would take me at least twice the time. It's not worth it for this skeleton site! A better introduction should probably be used. Ah well, it was the best I could come up with in the time... Give me some feedback, people! :) Neil. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFBA05.18E496A0 Content-Type: application/x-compressed; name="dynarec.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dynarec.zip" UEsDBBQAAgAIAMqtqSh4yESF4gwAAHUPAAANAAAAaW1nL3RpdGxlLmdpZu3U+SPTjwPH8fd7s6O5 NjY2hsnswwoTOZJ6byVX9VHuodzkyNznx+etJEffmlslTVE61Jyha0rCp5gzV1kqRymrrxwVn+/3 8198f/g+/obX82Vrv8/C0k8edAZWgH9gsVg8Hk8mk7W1tfX19Y2NjS0tLTkcjoODw+HDh7lcbkBA QHh4eGxsbGpqamZm5pkzZ4qKisrLy6urq2tra5uamh4+fNjZ2dnb2zsyMvLmzZvZ2dnFxcWVlZW/ /+///rdt/aeAf1oAsBsAiKXaCQXtJ7HKTO8uYeXT03gdh3K7uivP8sgmYZNddVefn6PtyaXa11d1 F+o53/Turq/+q5QV0FNu33Dt5UWL2I+T3Q3X+y5DJ3EaDo01/VftCpk+PY03Bq87XXW4FGYsglEK 9WGv25pAJAqLk8NCTVudQRlG0qqw2WDinuZ0wpyQjczCKSpgWX/d0+Nu4iHvR1qNPkXjsMvLPgvK tdwWjW2+Qt5bxIceMitUIiypxcgroFmatf++O6uoQt5qJ2rbHo7CqbCSIL89XgoELP+Nz+DXzyis AlYrndbCk+lSZpWJ1pDH+x9cffxrYpnjkQkisFC4IAmBURvZiAkVeLStFT16dRj/yQnKmJY3FQ7D 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Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 13:47:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA55432 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:47:06 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <009701bfb9ff$b22f3320$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005091306.PAA15459@pons.ac.upc.es> <000367335863e888_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec server Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:17:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > I guess you are right. Many people who work with computers understand English > relatively well, and those interested in the techincal aspects of emulation > should be even better because most of the terms are actually English. I feel a bit guilty about that, but I shouldn't when I think about it. We all need a language which we can all communicate in. If it wasn't English then it would be something else... > >It's the problem I have, I don't know how to contribute. > > You did many contributions to this list so if you are willing to contribute > to the site as well I bet we find something interesting for you. Never forget that you're writing this document on dynamic recompilation and their techniques. Surely that's contribution enough? That's a lot of work there... :o > BTW, it seems that the server is up and running. http://www.dynarec.com/ only > results in the Apache test page so far, but that shows at least that the site > can already be accessed. I haven't tried that, but I know that dynarec.com exists - I've telnetted to it already. Can't do it from work so I have to do everything from work. Not really a big problem for me. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 13:57:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA55494 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:57:18 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:57:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Skeleton site In-Reply-To: <009801bfb9ff$b460b920$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Here is just a quick site that I've knocked up. You can see the structure > I'm trying to get to if you look at the links - I like structure. The title > can be changed, it was just something I created quickly. I actually think > it's quite a nice effect, but it may not be what we're aiming for. I don't > care, it only took me something like 5 minutes to actually create. I know I > can make it have a semi-3D look as well which may be a little more > interesting. But it's not so important. Gotcha. I like the layout. The colors are a bit on the muted side, though. ;-) I'd prefer something with a bit more contrast so that your eyes are led to where you want them to read. > Also, this was created in FP2000. See, I wasn't lying. The HTML is pretty > good. I could create much better myself by hand - but it would take me at > least twice the time. It's not worth it for this skeleton site! Why don't you put it up on dynarec.com now? As long as we don't announce it to a million people, it'll be fine. So everyone, keep quiet until we "launch" it! > A better introduction should probably be used. Ah well, it was the best I > could come up with in the time... > Give me some feedback, people! :) Change "michaelk" to "mike" in the mailto on the bottomt of the page and I think the rest works! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 13:58:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA55505 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:58:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:58:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: BTW... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com For those of you with mail accounts on dynarec.com, pop3 service is now working. Majordomo will come sometime tonight. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 14:06:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA55534 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:06:44 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <00b001bfba02$72d7a7e0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Skeleton site Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:03:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, > Gotcha. I like the layout. The colors are a bit on the muted side, > though. ;-) I'd prefer something with a bit more contrast so that your > eyes are led to where you want them to read. Yes, I usually prefer more contrast. I don't normally go for straight black though. I usually lighten it up a bit or have some sort of dark background. The colours do need something doing, though. I'm not sure what. I'll go back in a moment and have a play. :) > > Also, this was created in FP2000. See, I wasn't lying. The HTML is pretty > > good. I could create much better myself by hand - but it would take me at > > least twice the time. It's not worth it for this skeleton site! > > Why don't you put it up on dynarec.com now? As long as we don't announce > it to a million people, it'll be fine. So everyone, keep quiet until we > "launch" it! The e-mail you sent before talking about the directory structures hasn't turned up here yet so I'm not sure of where I'd put it. It got to my work e-mail though... Strange. Can you tell me where to put it? And what's the directory for our own pages? Is it "html" or "home" or something? I can't remember! Mind you... I shouldn't have drunk so much last night! :o > > Give me some feedback, people! :) > > Change "michaelk" to "mike" in the mailto on the bottomt of the page and I > think the rest works! Sure, I'll do that right now. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 14:13:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA55575 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:13:28 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:15:04 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: DYNAREC: First content! Message-ID: <20000509221503.A4180@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com Hi, I claim first content on the dynarec server - my ARMphetamine page is now at http://www.dynarec.com/~jules... :-) Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 14:22:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA55610 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:22:53 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Message-ID: <00c301bfba04$b1547140$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <00b001bfba02$72d7a7e0$0100a8c0@lion> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Skeleton site Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:19:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C0_01BFBA0D.112A76C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01BFBA0D.112A76C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I've fixed Mike's e-mail address and I've altered the image slightly. It still isn't what I'm looking for. It's missing that certain "something". Has anyone got a good picture of a CPU? Especially an old rectangular one like the Z80 used to be. Writing "Dynarec" on one of those might be a good start... 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------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01BFBA0D.112A76C0-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 14:32:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA55664 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:32:10 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:32:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Skeleton site In-Reply-To: <00b001bfba02$72d7a7e0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > > Why don't you put it up on dynarec.com now? As long as we don't announce > > it to a million people, it'll be fine. So everyone, keep quiet until we > > "launch" it! > The e-mail you sent before talking about the directory structures hasn't > turned up here yet so I'm not sure of where I'd put it. It got to my work > e-mail though... Strange. Can you tell me where to put it? In /usr/home/html/html. > And what's the > directory for our own pages? Is it "html" or "home" or something? I can't > remember! Mind you... I shouldn't have drunk so much last night! :o It's always: http://www.dynarec.com/~username -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 14:34:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA55685 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:34:23 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:34:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Skeleton site In-Reply-To: <00c301bfba04$b1547140$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > Has anyone got a good picture of a CPU? Especially an old rectangular one > like the Z80 used to be. Writing "Dynarec" on one of those might be a good > start... I can take a picture of one with my new hires DC 290 camera. I'll do that tonight. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 15:31:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA55998 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 15:31:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: BTW... From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036736fef02161_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:20:33 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >For those of you with mail accounts on dynarec.com, pop3 service is now >working. Kewl, we even get POP3. I guess that includes SMTP as well. What's the name of the service, pop3.dynarec.com? >Majordomo will come sometime tonight. I think you want to transfer the list from Synthcom to the new Dynarec server. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e The problem with any unwritten law is that you don't know where to go to erase it. -- Glaser and Way --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 15:31:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56009 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 15:31:42 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Skeleton site From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <00c301bfba04$b1547140$0100a8c0@lion> Message-Id: <0003673720ab53bd_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <00b001bfba02$72d7a7e0$0100a8c0@lion> <00c301bfba04$b1547140$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:29:59 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@synthcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com >I've fixed Mike's e-mail address Maybe you want to change my last name to "König" as well ;-) >and I've altered the image slightly. It >still isn't what I'm looking for. It's missing that certain "something". I think the first image looked a bit better... But you were right FP2000 doesn't generate too much HTML crap. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "For three days after death hair and fingernails continue to grow but phone calls taper off." -- Johnny Carson --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 16:35:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by synthcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA56285 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 16:35:00 GMT (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:34:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@synthcom.com Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <006a01bfb98f$6b10fac0$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by synthcom.com id QAA56282 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@synthcom.com > >Actually, I think Communism can work, just not Marxist Communism. The > >reason that any form of Communism can't work in today's world is that > >Communism's standards are quite minimal. Until we can maintain a very high > >standard for everyone, Communism can't work. I don't think those who have > >a high standard of living would want to step it down. > But still Communism it´s better than wild capitalism. It depends upon what you define as "better". Russians before and after the fall of communism were poor. The standard of living in Russia is incredibly low - below what US and Canadian citizens consider to be the poverty level. No one has squat, and the food they do get isn't good food. Sure, they're fed, but that's not living. > You just have > to take a look at Rusia. While they were communist they had only the > more needed for living, now there are millions without enough food to > live. Apples to oranges comparison. You're using a transitional period as an example of capitalism being bad - going from any form to government to another will take years to be fully "accepted" and implemented. > The situation in Rusia I think shows how capitalism can easily > become without control, millions of peoples living in poor conditions > while some hundred become too rich. They were poor before that, and your "example" is flawed. It's lke going on a diet for 2 days and declaring that "it doesn't work". Transitions take time. It also takes decisive leadership - something that Russia has lacked. You're misinterpreting what you're seeing. > >I think the only thing that will cause Communism to work is the invention > >of the replicator. > What a replicator is? Something like the machines from Star Trek to produce > food and equipment, perhaps direct energy conversion? I think it will take > a long time until it will be invented ;) Bingo. Yes. Precisely. > >But my point is that there is a critical mass point on both ends. If > >economy gets too bad, something will cause it to boose. And if it gets too > >good, it'll drop and become volatile. It has a way of rowkring itself out. > But this kind of movements and a situation so volatile and without control > means a lot of people suffering, think about 29 crack. What's 29 crack? Sounds like a bad punk band. > >I'm sure that people thought that during the Dark Ages, but I don't think > >it's true. If anything, global communication is increasing > >dramatically. Twenty years ago, I hadn't spoken to anyone outside the > >US. Now I do it on a daily basis. If anything is going to cause a world > >melting pot, the Internet is the start. > Perhaps we have chance here. About Dark Ages I don´t think they had > enough time to worry about future: wars, famine, diseases, a poor > education level ... I hope never happen again. Yes, but my point is that people find a way to move on regardless of what's going on in their lives or government. > I don´t like any kind of religion. Oh well, more exactly I hate any > kind of religion builded around an organization as the Catholicism. That's bold coming from someone who lives in Spain. ;-) > Personal religions, well, everyone is a bit crazy I can support that, > but organized religions are dangerous. I wouldn't say that exclusively, but I agree with you. Any religion that's built like a business or has a living "leader" is bad news. > The only religion that I can > say could like me are some forms of Budism (as Zen), they are more a > way of live than a real religion. Religion has been one of the worst > things that have happened to the humanity. And the worst religions of > ever have been monoteist religions, and more exactly cristianism and > Islam. Yes, and they have been the source of wars and fighting for thousands of years. The stupid assed middle easterners haven't been able to get their shit together as far back as documented history, and it's all because of stupid ritualistic beliefs. You might call me a racist, but I have trouble with any religion that excludes, promotes superiority, exiles, or doesn't allow the general public (read that, anyone) to become part of it. That knocks out most variants Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, etc... You've crossed the line when you use your religion as a crutch or a weapon to beat someone else down. > Sometimes I think that it would be better that Roman or Greece > kind of Gods will persisted. They had more variation of religions and > I think there were more freedom to choice and less fights about > religion. And their leaders weren't tangible people, either. ;-) > Tradition for me is to mantein something useless only because > everybody before you have done it. I know there are good traditions > and it´s good to preserve some traditions. For example, I think the traditional wedding ceremonies are just fine as traditions, because it works quite well. But other useless traditions, such as wearing little caps or turbans on your head, is just a way to announce that you're a part of something that the next guy isn't. > But people uses traditions > to avoid changes that are needed to create a better world. We call them Republicans, or "Conservatives". > People is > usually afraid of changes, and I can´t understand why. Traditions are > an excuse to avoid changes. Also are used to create artificial > difference between groups of people: they don´t have the same > traditions as us, they are aliens. I hate this way of thinking. Or even worse, "They aren't Jewish, so therefore they are of a lower class than us." > Oh well, japanese say they kill whales for investigation and some > nothern europe countrys say the same. Just something said to justify > something that can´t be justified. It's not the whaling that I was taking issue with. It was the fact that those boneheads are claiming "heritage" that hasn't been practiced in 70 friggin' years, and they had no part in it! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@synthcom.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neil@synthcom.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 9 23:54:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00273 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 2000 23:54:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:58:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: It has moved! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com The dynarec mailing list on Synthcom has now been moved over to its new home on dynarec.com. Please continue conversation there. It will bounce if sent to the Synthcom address. Enjoy! ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 00:01:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00297 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 00:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3919093A.2E32E3F1@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:01:14 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Fwd: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, AARGH! You've taken dynarec down on Synthcom. Heh, so when I replied, I got a "User unknown" error. Never mind, I'll forward it to the correct address. :) ---------------- Hi, > > Probably the most notable piece of work would be http://www.s3p.co.uk - > > most of the HTML wasn't implemented by me, but the design was all mine. > > Except the bit at the bottom (the bottom frame), that wasn't. :) > > Hey, I *REALLY* like the look of that page. Thanks. :) Mind you, that took about 2 days to get it exactly as me and Tom (the other guy who worked on it) wanted it. You can get things pretty impressive by spending time on it... I'm glad you like it, it shows that the time was well spent! There's 5 people who work on the site, though I'm usually behind the scenes (fixing CGI, helping people, being in the forum). One of those is German - the scary thing is that I've known him for around 3 years now - and I met him for the first time about 3 months ago. Mike will probably know where he comes from - Magdeburg... Neil. PS One thing I like is your signature now, Neil. It's funny. :)) PPS I *really* should think of a good signature for myself... :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 00:07:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00319 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 00:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39190AA3.92BFA0C4@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:07:15 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: It has moved! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > The dynarec mailing list on Synthcom has now been moved over to its new > home on dynarec.com. Please continue conversation there. > > It will bounce if sent to the Synthcom address. Enjoy! ;-) Really? Gah, *now* you tell me! ;) Okay, can we get some discussion going about the site? We need to discuss content, colour schemes and just things which, while may not seem important, actually are important. Are there features we want on there? If so, we need to discuss. One thing, for example, would be the DR-FAQ. Do we put it in Mike's user area - or do we create a directory called "FAQ" and put it there? The easier it is to maintain, the better for everyone. Generally speaking, an easy to maintain site is an easy to navigate site. Also, has anyone got any good logo ideas? I'm just coming up with different ideas at the moment, but any input would be great! I did once render a P5 CPU, maybe I can use that as part of the logo (scaled down, of course). Ideas, I need ideas! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 00:21:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00353 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 00:21:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:25:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COM is complete! In-Reply-To: <3919093A.2E32E3F1@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Mind you, that took about 2 days to get it exactly as me and Tom (the other > guy who worked on it) wanted it. You can get things pretty impressive by > spending time on it... I'm glad you like it, it shows that the time was > well spent! I particularly like the font used, in addition to the shaded colors. It's sweet. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 00:33:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00377 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 00:33:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391910A7.7A4C38A3@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:32:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COMis complete! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Mind you, that took about 2 days to get it exactly as me and Tom (the other > > guy who worked on it) wanted it. You can get things pretty impressive by > > spending time on it... I'm glad you like it, it shows that the time was > > well spent! > > I particularly like the font used, in addition to the shaded colors. It's > sweet. Yes, the font is nice. I *think* it's Verdana that we used though I'm not sure - and I can't check because I have no 'net access at the moment. Do you want me to try and use a similar look for the Dynarec page? Similar colours and such? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 00:38:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00390 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 00:38:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:42:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: It has moved! In-Reply-To: <39190AA3.92BFA0C4@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Okay, can we get some discussion going about the site? We need to discuss > content, colour schemes and just things which, while may not seem > important, actually are important. Are there features we want on there? If > so, we need to discuss. There's a few things I'd like: * Shameless promotion of FreeBSD 4.0 and info about what's making it run * Shameless promotion of Apache as well. I believe in crediting those who give us major benefits without thought of repayment. * Maybe a "What the Dynarec server looks like" section. I've put up some reall high res pictures of it at dynarec.com/~neilb/dynarec1.jpg and dynarec.com/~neilb/dynarec2.jpg. They are HUGE pictures, so you'll probably have to cut 'em down a bit. For your information, its: - Pentium 150 - 64 MB of RAM - 5 Gig of IDE HD space - One STB Lightspeed 128 video card - Intel Etherexpress 10/100 - That's it. No floppy or CDROM or even a cover. I put the machine together from spare parts I had laying around * As I stated before, I tend to like darker, sharp looking 3D metallic style fonts. But I do also like the example page you did, so I'd be happy with either. > One thing, for example, would be the DR-FAQ. Do we put it in Mike's user > area - or do we create a directory called "FAQ" and put it there? The > easier it is to maintain, the better for everyone. Generally speaking, an > easy to maintain site is an easy to navigate site. Sure. Is Mike going to continue to maintain the page? If so, it might make sense to have it in his account. Although, we all have rights to modify the master html pages. Thoughts? Mike? > Also, has anyone got any good logo ideas? I'm just coming up with different > ideas at the moment, but any input would be great! I did once render a P5 > CPU, maybe I can use that as part of the logo (scaled down, of course). > Ideas, I need ideas! :) Metallic. Shiny. 3D. Sharp. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 00:39:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00400 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 00:39:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:43:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: DYNAREC: Re: Registration of domain name DYNAREC.COMis complete! In-Reply-To: <391910A7.7A4C38A3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Do you want me to try and use a similar look for the Dynarec page? Similar > colours and such? Yes, I think that'd look sharp as hell. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 00:42:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00412 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 00:41:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:45:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: BTW... In-Reply-To: <00036736fef02161_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >For those of you with mail accounts on dynarec.com, pop3 service is now > >working. > Kewl, we even get POP3. I guess that includes SMTP as well. > What's the name of the service, pop3.dynarec.com? I've just updated the name server so that: pop3.dynarec.com mail.dynarec.com ftp.dynarec.com www.dynarec.com dynarec.com All resolve to the same IP. The two addressese at the top might take 24 hours to propogate depending upon how slow the DNA propogation happens. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 01:38:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00521 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 01:38:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005100839.KAA17295@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Crusoe To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:39:44 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I forgot I had to send it the new list ... This mania of using the reply command ... ;) >> But still Communism it=B4s better than wild capitalism. >It depends upon what you define as "better". Russians before and after >the fall of communism were poor. The standard of living in Russia is >incredibly low - below what US and Canadian citizens consider to be the >poverty level. No one has squat, and the food they do get isn't good >food. Sure, they're fed, but that's not living. There are a lot of reason for this situation not only communism. Russia although it's a big country isn't a so rich country as US. They were never as advanced as US either. In fact Russia is a the country where occident (europe) and orient (asia) are mixed. The way of thinking of Russians isn't the same as US, they came from a monarchy and rural country. Then a lot of resources where wasted in the cold war. While US could commerce and get resources from all around the world, with the help of Europe and Japan, Russia was more limited to some europe countries, and they were in conflict with China also. I think Russia isn't the best example for Communism. >> You just have >> to take a look at Rusia. While they were communist they had only the >> more needed for living, now there are millions without enough food to >> live. >Apples to oranges comparison. You're using a transitional period as an >example of capitalism being bad - going from any form to government to >another will take years to be fully "accepted" and implemented. Do you want to know more bad capitalism examples, just take a look at the countries south where you live. All south american countries where mainteined capitalist by US government and they aren't better than the worst Communist country. >> The situation in Rusia I think shows how capitalism can easily >> become without control, millions of peoples living in poor conditions >> while some hundred become too rich. >They were poor before that, and your "example" is flawed. It's lke going >on a diet for 2 days and declaring that "it doesn't work". Transitions >take time. It also takes decisive leadership - something that Russia has >lacked. Transition was what was doing Gorbachov. What Ieltsin has done it's destroying, with the help of the occidental countries, a whole country. >You're misinterpreting what you're seeing. No, what happens is I'm bieased by my own opinions, and I use the situation for help my arguments ;) The situation in Russia is very difficult, and I think there will be a lot of problems in next decades because of that. >> What a replicator is? Something like the machines from Star Trek to produce >> food and equipment, perhaps direct energy conversion? I think it will take >> a long time until it will be invented ;) >Bingo. Yes. Precisely. Another problem it's that wastes a lot of energy, we will need a new energy source, perhaps fussion. The problem I think is more a lack of energy resources than material resources. The invention of a good fussion method is taken a too much time. But altought we get a good source of energy there will be still a environmental problem: hot. All the energy is converted in another kind of energy and finally in the more useless of all, hot. >> But this kind of movements and a situation so volatile and without control >> means a lot of people suffering, think about 29 crack. >What's 29 crack? Sounds like a bad punk band. Wall Street 1929 crack, the biggest capitalism crisis. >> Perhaps we have chance here. About Dark Ages I don't think they had >> enough time to worry about future: wars, famine, diseases, a poor >> education level ... I hope never happen again. >Yes, but my point is that people find a way to move on regardless of >what's going on in their lives or government. >> I don't like any kind of religion. Oh well, more exactly I hate any >> kind of religion builded around an organization as the Catholicism. >That's bold coming from someone who lives in Spain. ;-) Why? The association between Catholicism and Spain is now more a question of tradition than anything else. And Catholicism in Spain was carried by monarchy and the dictature, and I don't like them. The dictature we have from 1939 to 1975 builded such image, but in the Second Republic the situation was different. The Spanish Church has been ever a great problem, in my thoughts, to Spain progress because it was too powerful and helped to mantein traditions. I feel a soon (or grandsoon perhaps) of the Civil War losers and they were anticatholicism. You don't know how bad has been church for Spain. Now catholicism is carried more as a tradition than as a religion by the young people. For example I don't know anyone who goes usually to church on Sundays. >> Personal religions, well, everyone is a bit crazy I can support that, >> but organized religions are dangerous. >I wouldn't say that exclusively, but I agree with you. Any religion that's >built like a business or has a living "leader" is bad news. They are mafious organizations. >> The only religion that I can >> say could like me are some forms of Budism (as Zen), they are more a >> way of live than a real religion. Religion has been one of the worst >> things that have happened to the humanity. And the worst religions of >> ever have been monoteist religions, and more exactly cristianism and >> Islam. >Yes, and they have been the source of wars and fighting for thousands of >years. The stupid assed middle easterners haven't been able to get their >shit together as far back as documented history, and it's all because of >stupid ritualistic beliefs. It's incredible how people can stand fighting each other for something that could happen many years ago, sometimes centuries ago. >You might call me a racist, but I have trouble with any religion that >excludes, promotes superiority, exiles, or doesn't allow the general >public (read that, anyone) to become part of it. That knocks out most >variants Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, etc... You've crossed the line when >you use your religion as a crutch or a weapon to beat someone else down. It's better I don't talk about my opinion about Judiasm or someone would call me racist ... That kind of religion are another form of racism. >> Sometimes I think that it would be better that Roman or Greece >> kind of Gods will persisted. They had more variation of religions and >> I think there were more freedom to choice and less fights about >> religion. >And their leaders weren't tangible people, either. ;-) Clericals? They didn't work as organization I think, they were a bit related to the state. The weren't a differentiation between civil people and clerical people, the clerical wasn't a separate class. The problem is when a religion organization is hierarchized and gets a lot of power. Another example of bad religion could be Old Egipcian religion. >> Tradition for me is to mantein something useless only because >> everybody before you have done it. I know there are good traditions >> and it=B4s good to preserve some traditions. >For example, I think the traditional wedding ceremonies are just fine as >traditions, because it works quite well. But other useless traditions, >such as wearing little caps or turbans on your head, is just a way to >announce that you're a part of something that the next guy isn't. You hit the point. Most of the traditions are for helping people feel they are different from other people. To divide people. We need to join an mix people, we live in the same world and we have the same basic problems. Traditions doesn't help with this. >> But people uses traditions >> to avoid changes that are needed to create a better world. >We call them Republicans, or "Conservatives". I have problem with US partys, I can't never remember who is who ;) Well the problem perhaps is that sometimes the seem the same. In Spain we have still a greatest diffentiation between political partys. But this is changing lately and it's worrying me, it's a problem from the modern democrathic system, it can easily become in only a two big partys democracy. I think more variation it's needed, two partys makes things difficult to change. >It's not the whaling that I was taking issue with. It was the fact that >those boneheads are claiming "heritage" that hasn't been practiced in 70 >friggin' years, and they had no part in it! I know. Lately there too many people claiming for old dead traditions and many times it has no sense. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 02:00:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00723 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 02:04:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005100839.KAA17295@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I forgot I had to send it the new list ... This mania of using > the reply command ... ;) That'll learn ya! > >incredibly low - below what US and Canadian citizens consider to be the > >poverty level. No one has squat, and the food they do get isn't good > >food. Sure, they're fed, but that's not living. > There are a lot of reason for this situation not only communism. And not only capitalism. ;-) Russia had so many problems to begin with that transitioning to any form of government is disastrous. > Then a lot of resources where wasted in the cold war The same was true with the US, too. > While US could > commerce and get resources from all around the world, with the help of > Europe and Japan, Russia was more limited to some europe countries, and > they were in conflict with China also. I think Russia isn't the best > example for Communism. The problem is that it tends to breed tyranny in leadership - the "dark side" of communism, as capitalism tends to bring out the greedy. Don't get me wrong - I like communism as an idea, but the implementations implemented so far have been horrible. > >Apples to oranges comparison. You're using a transitional period as an > >example of capitalism being bad - going from any form to government to > >another will take years to be fully "accepted" and implemented. > Do you want to know more bad capitalism examples, just take a look at > the countries south where you live. All south american countries where > mainteined capitalist by US government and they aren't better than the > worst Communist country. If you take a look at South American countries, the problem isn't capitalism, but a large bit of it being drugs and corruption of government. It might help fuel it, but it doesn't create corruption of that magnitude. > >You're misinterpreting what you're seeing. > No, what happens is I'm bieased by my own opinions, and I use the > situation for help my arguments ;) Incorrectly I might add. ;-) You're giving too much "credit" to capitalism toward it causing problems, and the Russian problems you cannot attribute to capitalism. But my point is you can't point to Russia and say "See what problems capitalism causes?" That would be like me pointing to China and saying "See what communism causes?". I'm separating the concept from the actual implementation. > The situation in Russia is very difficult, and I think there will be > a lot of problems in next decades because of that. Yes, but the problems in Russia that are seen today have nothing to do with capitalism. > Another problem it's that wastes a lot of energy, we will need a new > energy source, perhaps fussion. The problem I think is more a lack of > energy resources than material resources. The invention of a good > fussion method is taken a too much time. But altought we get a good > source of energy there will be still a environmental problem: hot. All > the energy is converted in another kind of energy and finally in the more > useless of all, hot. Find a way to recycle it to heat water so we can have warm showers. ;-) > >> But this kind of movements and a situation so volatile and without control > >> means a lot of people suffering, think about 29 crack. > >What's 29 crack? Sounds like a bad punk band. > Wall Street 1929 crack, the biggest capitalism crisis. You mean crash, not crack. ;-) And the largest contributor to the crash had nothing to do with capitalism, it had to do mostly with immigration - making more than 80% of the populus on the east coast immigrants! > >> I don't like any kind of religion. Oh well, more exactly I hate any > >> kind of religion builded around an organization as the Catholicism. > >That's bold coming from someone who lives in Spain. ;-) > Why? The association between Catholicism and Spain is now more a > question of tradition than anything else. The number of Spaniards and Mexicans I know - all of whom are Catholic or practicing Catholics. > of the Civil War losers and they were anticatholicism. You don't know > how bad has been church for Spain. I don't directly, but I've seen zillions of examples that support badness. ;-) > >I wouldn't say that exclusively, but I agree with you. Any religion that's > >built like a business or has a living "leader" is bad news. > They are mafious organizations. Like Mormonism? FWIW, As an example, the largest distributor of alcohol in the United States is owned by Mormons. Go figger. > >You might call me a racist, but I have trouble with any religion that > >excludes, promotes superiority, exiles, or doesn't allow the general > >public (read that, anyone) to become part of it. That knocks out most > It's better I don't talk about my opinion about Judiasm or someone would > call me racist ... That kind of religion are another form of racism. Any religion that has a word for nonbelievers or nonmembers (I.E. goyim) is flawed from the start. > and clerical people, the clerical wasn't a separate class. The problem > is when a religion organization is hierarchized and gets a lot of power. > Another example of bad religion could be Old Egipcian religion. Some good came of it, but there was a LOT of bad - definitely. > they are different from other people. To divide people. We need to join > an mix people, we live in the same world and we have the same basic > problems. Traditions doesn't help with this. And when we mix, we don't ram eachother's beliefs and rituals down eachother's throats. If you can believe it, we have a guy at work who refuses to take baths except *ONCE PER MONTH* because his religion forbids it. I actually thought about taking the asshole to court but my employer intervened and said "Shower - it's unsanitary and creates an unsafe work environment". Geez! > >> to avoid changes that are needed to create a better world. > >We call them Republicans, or "Conservatives". > I have problem with US partys, I can't never remember who is who ;) Neither are worth a damn. > Well the problem perhaps is that sometimes the seem the same. In Spain > we have still a greatest diffentiation between political partys. But > this is changing lately and it's worrying me, it's a problem from the > modern democrathic system, it can easily become in only a two big partys > democracy. I think more variation it's needed, two partys makes things > difficult to change. It's not really a variation that's needed, it's one of the two parties applied at the appropriate time. Whenever republicans (conservatives) get in power, it tends to slow economy because people hang on to their wallets. The republicans are the real problem in the US. They are selfish, cater to the rich, hide behind religions and "moral" issues and generally cause nuisances for anyone not them. Consider the fact that we've had more recessions during republican "rule" by a factor of 5. Too much Democracy and it tends to get out of control and nothing really gets done (But sometimes that's exactly what's wanted). Politically, I'm about mid way between both parties, but I cannot in good conscience support selfish, anal retentive, conservatives. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 02:12:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00745 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:12:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3919276E.AC7CFBF4@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:10:06 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Webpage References: <200005100839.KAA17295@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, Can somebody do me a favour and upload the current WIP pages for the Dynarec site onto the server? I can't do this from work at all so I have a problem. Neil has asked me to do this ASAP - but I can't get it done until I go home. All you need is a decent FTP client to upload the files - and you'll probably have to CHMOD (or change the permissions) so that they become 755 (so everyone can read them). Everyone on the list has a copy of the relevant files - so if you have a 'net connection, you have no excuse! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 02:22:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00768 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:22:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005100927.LAA11930@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Webpage In-Reply-To: <3919276E.AC7CFBF4@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 10, 2000 11:10:06 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:27:53 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > Can somebody do me a favour and upload the current WIP pages for the > Dynarec site onto the server? I can't do this from work at all so I have a > problem. Neil has asked me to do this ASAP - but I can't get it done until > I go home. All you need is a decent FTP client to upload the files - and > you'll probably have to CHMOD (or change the permissions) so that they > become 755 (so everyone can read them). > > Everyone on the list has a copy of the relevant files - so if you have a > 'net connection, you have no excuse! ;) > I could do it, but I don't know how. And perhaps my net connection is a bit slower ... Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 02:48:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00831 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:48:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <014b01bfba64$da6aee00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: Subject: DYNAREC: Mothers' day Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:48:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Help! What's going on? I distinctly remember getting glared at by my sister for being overly intoxicated on Mothers day just a couple of months ago. Do they do it on a different date in the US, or something? I could have sworn it was 14th of March...There's ads all over the web that say the 14th of May, though. Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 02:49:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00841 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39192FCA.E00E32E7@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:45:46 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > The problem is that it tends to breed tyranny in leadership - the "dark > side" of communism, as capitalism tends to bring out the greedy. This is human nature. I like the idea of communism. However, I'm realistic. It can never work while we still have class equalities (one set of people with much more money than others) and also while we have greedy people. You would also need leaders (in a true communist way, would you even HAVE leaders?) who were not greedy. And I don't believe they exist... > Don't get me wrong - I like communism as an idea, but the implementations > implemented so far have been horrible. Agreed. > Incorrectly I might add. ;-) You're giving too much "credit" to capitalism > toward it causing problems, and the Russian problems you cannot attribute > to capitalism. But my point is you can't point to Russia and say "See what > problems capitalism causes?" That would be like me pointing to China and > saying "See what communism causes?". I'm separating the concept from the > actual implementation. Although China is a case in point. They're trying to take capitalism and bend it to communism. It's stupid. When you've got the country leaders getting so much money, yet having a lot of their people in abject poverty... Also, I don't agree with the Chinese leaders deciding what the Chinese public can and cannot know. Free speech isn't a capitalist thing, it's a very communistic thing (free speech could never exist in a highly capitalistic state). Having said that, I'm not sure that it could exist in a very communistic state either... > > Another problem it's that wastes a lot of energy, we will need a new > > energy source, perhaps fussion. The problem I think is more a lack of > > energy resources than material resources. The invention of a good > > fussion method is taken a too much time. But altought we get a good > > source of energy there will be still a environmental problem: hot. All > > the energy is converted in another kind of energy and finally in the more > > useless of all, hot. > > Find a way to recycle it to heat water so we can have warm showers. ;-) Use the heat to power turbines (via steam). > > Wall Street 1929 crack, the biggest capitalism crisis. > > You mean crash, not crack. ;-) And the largest contributor to the crash > had nothing to do with capitalism, it had to do mostly with immigration - > making more than 80% of the populus on the east coast immigrants! Most of Englands ancestors aren't originally from England. It'd be difficult to find out exactly where they came from, but they've been mixed with Vikings, Germans and French over time that most English are in fact immigrants. They didn't defeat the Welsh! ;) > > Why? The association between Catholicism and Spain is now more a > > question of tradition than anything else. > > The number of Spaniards and Mexicans I know - all of whom are Catholic or > practicing Catholics. I don't know many, but the few Spanish people I do know are all Catholics. Or, at the very least, have been brought up in a very Catholic fashion... > > of the Civil War losers and they were anticatholicism. You don't know > > how bad has been church for Spain. > > I don't directly, but I've seen zillions of examples that support > badness. ;-) Religion, as a whole, is bad for everybody. Think about it. The largest majority of the worlds wars have been fought over religion. > > They are mafious organizations. > > Like Mormonism? FWIW, As an example, the largest distributor of alcohol in > the United States is owned by Mormons. Go figger. Well... I'd want to drink too if I was a Mormon. :)) > > and clerical people, the clerical wasn't a separate class. The problem > > is when a religion organization is hierarchized and gets a lot of power. > > Another example of bad religion could be Old Egipcian religion. > > Some good came of it, but there was a LOT of bad - definitely. Same in all cases. I didn't reply when we were talking about Roman religion (and Greek, for that matter) but remember - the Romans also killed people who didn't believe in their Gods. There's a very famous person who this happened to. You may have heard of him. His name was "Jesus". I'm not a Christian - though I have my own beliefs. I know that Jesus existed (records exist from that time). Whether he was the son of God, I just don't know. I just know that he existed - and that he was crucified. He was crucified because he wouldn't believe in the Roman Gods... well, allegedly. > And when we mix, we don't ram eachother's beliefs and rituals down > eachother's throats. If you can believe it, we have a guy at work who > refuses to take baths except *ONCE PER MONTH* because his religion forbids > it. I actually thought about taking the asshole to court but my employer > intervened and said "Shower - it's unsanitary and creates an unsafe work > environment". Geez! Agreed. I've had so many bad experiences that now I instantly hate anyone who tries to shove their beliefs down my throat. I have in the past, amonst other things, been called "evil" because I'm not Christian. The interesting thing is that for every religion, anyone not of that religion is evil. Therefore we are all evil. Never forget that. ;) > > I have problem with US partys, I can't never remember who is who ;) > > Neither are worth a damn. Always the case with most political parties. I find it difficult to believe any side. > Politically, I'm about mid way between both parties, but I cannot in good > conscience support selfish, anal retentive, conservatives. Politically, I'm also midway between the Conservatives and Labour (Socialists). I don't believe completely for either party. Besides, whenever either gets elected, they almost instantly start doing what they once were arguing the other side shouldn't do. It's moronic, it really is... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:00:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00876 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:00:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: It has moved! From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <00036740b9d006d5_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:57:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >There's a few things I'd like: >* Shameless promotion of FreeBSD 4.0 and info about what's making it run No problems with that. >* Shameless promotion of Apache as well. I believe in crediting those who > give us major benefits without thought of repayment. Neither here, acually I counted that under the point above. >> One thing, for example, would be the DR-FAQ. Do we put it in Mike's user >> area - or do we create a directory called "FAQ" and put it there? The >> easier it is to maintain, the better for everyone. Generally speaking, an >> easy to maintain site is an easy to navigate site. >Sure. Is Mike going to continue to maintain the page? I guess so. >If so, it might make sense to have it in his account. That's what I think as well. We'll have a news page for sudden changes which I cannot include in the DRFAQ that fast. >Although, we all have rights to modify the master html pages. Thoughts? Mike? I guess the global FAQ is for info about the server and the like, whereas the DRFAQ is more specific and might be referenced in a document section. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e You don't sew with a fork, so I see no reason to eat with knitting needles. -- Miss Piggy, on eating Chinese Food --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:00:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00890 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Skeleton site From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <00036740d7667f83_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:05:19 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I was going to... and just didn't because I didn't know whether there was >HTML for it. Even most Germans don't know it, simply type the umlaut and get strange results with many browsers... BTW, all the special signs for German are: ö = ö ü = ü ä = ä ß = ß >Seeing as I can see there is (from this e-mail, in fact!) then >I'll do it tonight. And I'll actually upload it tonight as well. :) I hope you have more luck than I had... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Paul Revere was a tattle-tale --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:00:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00889 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Webpage From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <3919276E.AC7CFBF4@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000367409c127515_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005100839.KAA17295@pons.ac.upc.es> <3919276E.AC7CFBF4@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:48:44 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Can somebody do me a favour and upload the current WIP pages for the >Dynarec site onto the server? I can't do this from work at all so I have a >problem. Neil has asked me to do this ASAP - but I can't get it done until >I go home. All you need is a decent FTP client to upload the files - and >you'll probably have to CHMOD (or change the permissions) so that they >become 755 (so everyone can read them). It should be chmod 775 for directories and 664 for files. >Everyone on the list has a copy of the relevant files - so if you have a >'net connection, you have no excuse! ;) But I don't seem to have the permission to transfer files or create the "img" directory :-( >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Everything is controlled by a small evil group to which, unfortunately, no one we know belongs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:02:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00905 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:02:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39193344.27F800E5@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:00:36 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Mothers' day References: <014b01bfba64$da6aee00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Help! What's going on? I distinctly remember getting glared at by my sister > for being overly intoxicated on Mothers day just a couple of months ago. Do > they do it on a different date in the US, or something? I could have sworn > it was 14th of March...There's ads all over the web that say the 14th of > May, though. Don't worry, it's a different day. And it's a different day in Germany too. And they don't have it in France. :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:08:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00926 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:08:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <016b01bfba67$ae07ae40$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <014b01bfba64$da6aee00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> <39193344.27F800E5@eurocopter.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Mothers' day Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:08:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > Help! What's going on? I distinctly remember getting glared at by my sister > > for being overly intoxicated on Mothers day just a couple of months ago. Do > > they do it on a different date in the US, or something? I could have sworn > > it was 14th of March...There's ads all over the web that say the 14th of > > May, though. > > Don't worry, it's a different day. And it's a different day in Germany too. > And they don't have it in France. :o Phew! I was starting to panic there. I wonder if They (as in the card manufacturing companies) arranged to stagger it like that to provide themselves with year round income? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:09:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00936 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005101014.MAA07671@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 10, 2000 02:04:59 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:14:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > And not only capitalism. ;-) Russia had so many problems to begin with > that transitioning to any form of government is disastrous. > > The same was true with the US, too. > It seems clear that Russian isn't the best example. > The problem is that it tends to breed tyranny in leadership - the "dark > side" of communism, as capitalism tends to bring out the greedy. > > Don't get me wrong - I like communism as an idea, but the implementations > implemented so far have been horrible. > I think that in Marx doctrine there is a phase of dictature after the power has been taken from capitalist. I really don't know much about Marx doctrine though. The problem is that is impossible than a dictature releases it's power to a more democrathic system. Perhaps that was the problem of the implementations of communism. Communism was ever implanted by force, using armies, and when a military force get into power ... In Spain and other europe countries there are democrathic communist partys but they don't share the same ideology from old Russia Communism and they have evolved. I'm not sure but I think they have never been a "communist" government in Occidental Europe, or perhaps Italia ..., I don't know. In any case they are now helping "socialist" (something like the democrat party) governments on France and Germany. Communism breeds leadership and also burocracy because gives a lot of power to the government. > If you take a look at South American countries, the problem isn't > capitalism, but a large bit of it being drugs and corruption of > government. It might help fuel it, but it doesn't create corruption of > that magnitude. > But in my thoughts corruption is something that comes from capitalism. For example: drugs. Drugs is a good example of what capitalism means. The drug bussines are a good example of capitalism, do all what you can to get money, produce something that has a good market and mantein high prizes with low production. The prohibition of use of drugs only helps to convert it in a great bussine. You know what happenned when alcohol was forbidden in US. I think we give different meanings to the word "capitalism", perhaps you mean what I name "controlled capitalism". > Incorrectly I might add. ;-) You're giving too much "credit" to capitalism > toward it causing problems, and the Russian problems you cannot attribute > to capitalism. But my point is you can't point to Russia and say "See what > problems capitalism causes?" That would be like me pointing to China and > saying "See what communism causes?". I'm separating the concept from the > actual implementation. > Sure but I'm not the best searching for god examples ;) > > source of energy there will be still a environmental problem: hot. All > > the energy is converted in another kind of energy and finally in the more > > useless of all, hot. > > Find a way to recycle it to heat water so we can have warm showers. ;-) > Very fun, but it's a serious issue. It can helps to avoid another glacial age though. > You mean crash, not crack. ;-) And the largest contributor to the crash > had nothing to do with capitalism, it had to do mostly with immigration - > making more than 80% of the populus on the east coast immigrants! > Sorry, bad english, bad english ;) I don't know much about it, it was in US and it was long ago. As I have studied the scientist branch of Spanish studies I haven't studied so many history. I'm better with old history than history about last century. It seems there is a kind of "prohibition" of teach about what happenned last century in Spain. > > >> I don't like any kind of religion. Oh well, more exactly I hate any > > >> kind of religion builded around an organization as the Catholicism. > > >That's bold coming from someone who lives in Spain. ;-) > > Why? The association between Catholicism and Spain is now more a > > question of tradition than anything else. > > The number of Spaniards and Mexicans I know - all of whom are Catholic or > practicing Catholics. > In South America catholicism is a lot of spreaded (perhaps it's Spainish fault :o), but since 1980 Spain has become a more modern and free country. Now resembles a bit more an european country. Catholicism has less power now in Spain than ever, or I hope so. Something different happens in South and Central America. > > >I wouldn't say that exclusively, but I agree with you. Any religion that's > > >built like a business or has a living "leader" is bad news. > > They are mafious organizations. > > Like Mormonism? FWIW, As an example, the largest distributor of alcohol in > the United States is owned by Mormons. Go figger. > A good example, I see a lot of american mormons spreading their religion here too. > > they are different from other people. To divide people. We need to join > > an mix people, we live in the same world and we have the same basic > > problems. Traditions doesn't help with this. > > And when we mix, we don't ram eachother's beliefs and rituals down > eachother's throats. If you can believe it, we have a guy at work who > refuses to take baths except *ONCE PER MONTH* because his religion forbids > it. I actually thought about taking the asshole to court but my employer > intervened and said "Shower - it's unsanitary and creates an unsafe work > environment". Geez! > Rare religion. But there are worst traditions. This tradition doesn't help to get friends. > > Well the problem perhaps is that sometimes the seem the same. In Spain > > we have still a greatest diffentiation between political partys. But > > this is changing lately and it's worrying me, it's a problem from the > > modern democrathic system, it can easily become in only a two big partys > > democracy. I think more variation it's needed, two partys makes things > > difficult to change. > > It's not really a variation that's needed, it's one of the two parties > applied at the appropriate time. Whenever republicans (conservatives) get > in power, it tends to slow economy because people hang on to their > wallets. The republicans are the real problem in the US. They are selfish, > cater to the rich, hide behind religions and "moral" issues and generally > cause nuisances for anyone not them. Consider the fact that we've had more > recessions during republican "rule" by a factor of 5. Too much Democracy > and it tends to get out of control and nothing really gets done (But > sometimes that's exactly what's wanted). > US Republican party sometimes frightens me and also other heavy religious groups of your country. I can't stop thinking US can easily become a new world empire (perhaps I'm a bit biased by communist influence though) and I don't think the US model of capitalism is the best, I like more the european is more government controlled (I preffer government controlled than who knows controlled, but in fact perhaps is the same :p). > Politically, I'm about mid way between both parties, but I cannot in good > conscience support selfish, anal retentive, conservatives. > Politically I could say I'm more democrathic communism related ;) But I don't like politics. Any government which shows themselves to be efficient enough can be considered good. A government which use "common sense" (I think I'm using an Spanish expression here, read intelligence) and not "power sense" can be considered a dream. Victor Moya Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:10:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00948 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005101015.MAA21176@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Mothers' day In-Reply-To: <39193344.27F800E5@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 10, 2000 12:00:36 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:15:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > Help! What's going on? I distinctly remember getting glared at by my sister > > for being overly intoxicated on Mothers day just a couple of months ago. Do > > they do it on a different date in the US, or something? I could have sworn > > it was 14th of March...There's ads all over the web that say the 14th of > > May, though. > > Don't worry, it's a different day. And it's a different day in Germany too. > And they don't have it in France. :o > It was last Sunday in Spain. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:13:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00959 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:13:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Mothers' day From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <014b01bfba64$da6aee00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-Id: <00036740e1a62427_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <014b01bfba64$da6aee00$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:08:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Help! What's going on? I distinctly remember getting glared at by my sister >for being overly intoxicated on Mothers day just a couple of months ago. Do >they do it on a different date in the US, or something? I could have sworn >it was 14th of March...There's ads all over the web that say the 14th of >May, though. In Germany it's always the sunday after my birthday, so 14th of May sounds right. >Andrew -- M.I.K.e [Nuclear war] ... may not be desirable. -- Edwin Meese III --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:13:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00968 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:13:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Webpage From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005100927.LAA11930@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <00036740fc498ef0_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005100927.LAA11930@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:15:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I could do it, but I don't know how. And perhaps my net connection is >a bit slower ... It seems that when I use my university account to access the internet I don't have the rights to telnet or ftp dynarec.com or even use pop3 or smtp services of other providers :-( Maybe it's the same case for you? I had to use a different provider to setup up my page. But even then I don't have the permission to put Neil's skeleton site up. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Your life would be very empty if you had nothing to regret. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:15:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA00981 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391936BC.CEDC02F6@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:15:24 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Webpage References: <200005100839.KAA17295@pons.ac.upc.es> <3919276E.AC7CFBF4@eurocopter.de> <000367409c127515_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > It should be chmod 775 for directories and 664 for files. For directories, I'm not entirely sure about that. Why would a group member need to execute the files? 755 is fine for directories normally. And as for 664 for files, no. Try doing that - and then renaming a file. You'd have to CHMOD it first, rename it and then CHMOD it back. Mind you... I suppose that with us all having different usernames yet possibly working with the same files, making the user and group attributes the same might be a good idea. Okay, Mike, I'll go along with you. But normally this isn't necessary. :) > >Everyone on the list has a copy of the relevant files - so if you have a > >'net connection, you have no excuse! ;) > > But I don't seem to have the permission to transfer files or create the "img" > directory :-( Oops, sounds like the group permissions aren't set up properly. Have you tried setting the "html" directory to 775? Or do you not have rights to that either? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:30:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01006 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005101036.MAA28057@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <39192FCA.E00E32E7@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 10, 2000 11:45:46 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:36:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > The problem is that it tends to breed tyranny in leadership - the "dark > > side" of communism, as capitalism tends to bring out the greedy. > > This is human nature. I like the idea of communism. However, I'm realistic. > It can never work while we still have class equalities (one set of people > with much more money than others) and also while we have greedy people. You > would also need leaders (in a true communist way, would you even HAVE > leaders?) who were not greedy. And I don't believe they exist... > Human nature isn't something unchangeable, it's more an educational problem. The culture has a lot of power over genes in humans. And if genes are still a problem we have know the gene therapy ;) Ops, perhaps a really bad idea, a genetic modified race of slaves ... I'm getting bad feelings. But I like gene therapy, humanity could decide how want to evolve, really every human could decide how he want to evolve. > > Don't get me wrong - I like communism as an idea, but the implementations > > implemented so far have been horrible. > > Agreed. > Unluckyly :( > Although China is a case in point. They're trying to take capitalism and > bend it to communism. It's stupid. When you've got the country leaders > getting so much money, yet having a lot of their people in abject > poverty... > Just take a look on some countries as India. It's what happens in dictatures. > Also, I don't agree with the Chinese leaders deciding what the Chinese > public can and cannot know. Free speech isn't a capitalist thing, it's a > very communistic thing (free speech could never exist in a highly > capitalistic state). Having said that, I'm not sure that it could exist in > a very communistic state either... > The problem is that all communist governments are or have been dictatures. All theses problem also happens in capitalist dictatures. > Most of Englands ancestors aren't originally from England. It'd be > difficult to find out exactly where they came from, but they've been mixed > with Vikings, Germans and French over time that most English are in fact > immigrants. > Spanish ancestors are from everywhere, europe, asia and africa. We are really near of north africa, sometimes I think too near for being europeans. In any case we are for sure meditarranean. > > The number of Spaniards and Mexicans I know - all of whom are Catholic or > > practicing Catholics. > > I don't know many, but the few Spanish people I do know are all Catholics. > Or, at the very least, have been brought up in a very Catholic fashion... > I'm worrying, perhaps I'm the only not Catholic Spanish ;). Oh well I was baptized, but this isn't my fault and it was more as a tradition. Really, many of my friends follow some catholic traditions but It's a no sense to say they are good catholic practicians. > Religion, as a whole, is bad for everybody. Think about it. The largest > majority of the worlds wars have been fought over religion. > Nacism could be considered also a religion. But a lot of wars are involved with resource limitation and the search for power of kings and leaders. > Same in all cases. I didn't reply when we were talking about Roman religion > (and Greek, for that matter) but remember - the Romans also killed people > who didn't believe in their Gods. There's a very famous person who this > happened to. You may have heard of him. His name was "Jesus". > They killed because it was a rebel (or Hebrews leaders said this), not involved with religion problems. The only problem with religion I can remember was between Jews and Romans, but was more a Jew fault they were too rebellious ever. All old empire could handle with all foreign gods but fanatic religions as Jewish one. > I'm not a Christian - though I have my own beliefs. I know that Jesus > existed (records exist from that time). Whether he was the son of God, I > just don't know. I just know that he existed - and that he was crucified. > He was crucified because he wouldn't believe in the Roman Gods... well, > allegedly. > Not true. You haven't readed enough about crucifiction ;) And I should know more than you, I'm from a catholic country ;) > Agreed. I've had so many bad experiences that now I instantly hate anyone > who tries to shove their beliefs down my throat. I have in the past, amonst > other things, been called "evil" because I'm not Christian. The interesting > thing is that for every religion, anyone not of that religion is evil. > Therefore we are all evil. Never forget that. ;) > Oh well, for me many religious people are fools and need psichiatric help. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 03:37:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA01024 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:37:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Webpage From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <391936BC.CEDC02F6@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <0003674147a24120_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005100839.KAA17295@pons.ac.upc.es> <3919276E.AC7CFBF4@eurocopter.de> <000367409c127515_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <391936BC.CEDC02F6@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:36:42 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Mind you... I suppose that with us all having different usernames yet >possibly working with the same files, making the user and group attributes >the same might be a good idea. Okay, Mike, I'll go along with you. But >normally this isn't necessary. :) I only meant 775 and 664 to be used for the global site, and the normal 755 and 644 for our personal ones. >Oops, sounds like the group permissions aren't set up properly. Have you >tried setting the "html" directory to 775? Or do you not have rights to >that either? You guessed right, I don't have permission to change that either :-( >Neil. -- M.I.K.e November, n.: The eleventh twelfth of a weariness. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 05:27:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA01157 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 05:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39195549.CABC675F@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:25:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe References: <200005101036.MAA28057@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Human nature isn't something unchangeable, it's more an educational problem. > The culture has a lot of power over genes in humans. And if genes are > still a problem we have know the gene therapy ;) Ops, perhaps a really > bad idea, a genetic modified race of slaves ... I'm getting bad feelings. > But I like gene therapy, humanity could decide how want to evolve, really > every human could decide how he want to evolve. Do you know how scary I find this thought? I really don't like this idea at all. To maybe "correct" children who may be born mentally or physically disabled I can just about agree with, but I really don't want to think about us messing around with our genes. What would happen if we got it wrong? Or we found that it turned into a virus? > > Although China is a case in point. They're trying to take capitalism and > > bend it to communism. It's stupid. When you've got the country leaders > > getting so much money, yet having a lot of their people in abject > > poverty... > > > Just take a look on some countries as India. It's what happens in dictatures. That's also true, yes. > > Most of Englands ancestors aren't originally from England. It'd be > > difficult to find out exactly where they came from, but they've been mixed > > with Vikings, Germans and French over time that most English are in fact > > immigrants. > > > Spanish ancestors are from everywhere, europe, asia and africa. We are > really near of north africa, sometimes I think too near for being europeans. > In any case we are for sure meditarranean. My great-grandfather is Spanish, apparently. Not that you could tell - I've got blonde hair. Actually, that's one worrying thing. My hair used to be really white-blonde when I was younger. And my family decided to take a holiday in Spain. All the Spanish people kept telling my parents that I couldn't be their son because they had dark hair - and they all kept rubbing my hair! Scary... :o > > I don't know many, but the few Spanish people I do know are all Catholics. > > Or, at the very least, have been brought up in a very Catholic fashion... > > > I'm worrying, perhaps I'm the only not Catholic Spanish ;). Oh well I was > baptized, but this isn't my fault and it was more as a tradition. Really, > many of my friends follow some catholic traditions but It's a no sense > to say they are good catholic practicians. I was also baptised. But I managed to strike a deal with my parents. If I went to church until I was 13, I could make up my own mind about going. Guess what? I stopped going on my 13th birthday. :) > > Religion, as a whole, is bad for everybody. Think about it. The largest > > majority of the worlds wars have been fought over religion. > > > Nacism could be considered also a religion. But a lot of wars are involved > with resource limitation and the search for power of kings and leaders. Yes, Nazism was indeed a religion of sorts. > > I'm not a Christian - though I have my own beliefs. I know that Jesus > > existed (records exist from that time). Whether he was the son of God, I > > just don't know. I just know that he existed - and that he was crucified. > > He was crucified because he wouldn't believe in the Roman Gods... well, > > allegedly. > > > Not true. You haven't readed enough about crucifiction ;) And I should > know more than you, I'm from a catholic country ;) Yes, but I don't base my beliefs on the Bible. It has been so mis-interpreted - and even CHANGED - through the years that it can't resemble the original. If you're going to base your belief system around something, you could at least keep it "pure". Even the Catholic church has changed the bible through the years to make it say what they wanted it to say. I actually have read many books about different subjects (I read a lot) and I've made up my own mind. Sure, you can believe the bible and that Jesus was executed because he was a rebel. Or you can believe the documents that he was killed because he believed in a "false god". I think he probably was a rebel leader, in fact. That may well be the reason the Romans found out about him. But Pontious Pilate (sp?) did give Jesus a chance to renounce his God. And he refused. See? > Oh well, for me many religious people are fools and need psichiatric help. ;) Agreed. Though I must say that there are a lot of religious people out there who are really nice! It's just the few that give the others a bad name. And I seem to have found quite a few wierd religious people - which is why I don't like them. But surely I can't be the only one who has sat down with priests and vicars discussing religion? The one thing which was pointed out to me by a vicar once which has made me think is when I was talking about how God could be an explanation for why we're all here - we know (well, we hope!) we came from the Big Bang. His reply? Why did the Big Bang happen? It's made me think a bit. Maybe there is a God. Maybe there's more! I just don't know - and I'm not going to go out and start believing in them just because they *might* exist. And I'm certainly not going to go out and call someone "evil" just because I believe in one God and they don't. Christianity (including Catholicism): you have to remember that the book isn't "Gods word" as is so often said. It was written by men, not God. Can you tell that I have strong feelings on the subject? :) I just hate to be called evil because I'm not Christian. So now I've learnt a lot about religions, just so that if it happens again, I can question their own beliefs. I had a head start on Christianity because I was forced to go to church every Sunday - I learnt a lot. Mainly that I didn't want to be in church every Sunday. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Wed May 10 18:37:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02080 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:41:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Re: MUL8: SI Small test (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Grrrr.. This kind of thing really annoys me. I really don't understand *NOT* protecting yourself during coding at every possible turn. The background: Instead of calling malloc(), create a MyMalloc() or equivalent macro that: * Verifies the size isn't 0 * Makes damn sure it's a valid pointer on return * Zeros the memory And instead of having free(), create a MyFree(void **) that does: * Verifies that the incoming pointer isn't NULL * Verifies that what the incoming pointer points to isn't NULL * Frees the memory block * Zeros what the incomnig pointer points to to prevent pointer reuse It's a preventative measure to catch common problems (and problems created by side effects), and I get *ARGUED WITH* that this shouldn't be done, and that somehow it's an "Oh, well, if *YOU* have *THOPSE* kinds of problems, then by all means, go ahead!" type problem. Sheesh! What is it with newbie pride anyway? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:35:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley Reply-To: mul8@synthcom.com To: mul8@synthcom.com Subject: Re: MUL8: SI Small test Some background: This specific idea (and other ideas I mention) come from Bounds Chcker and Purify - the two best programs for finding hairline or impossible to find bugs, including memory leaks, illegal memory accesses, stack corruptions, and array bound violations. > > Meaning if someone passes you in a 0 for the size, it asserts, because > > damnit, it's going to be a mistake and it's better to catch it then than > > later on. > Okay, this is true. On the other hand, I've _never_ seen this happen. I've > heard of it happening maybe once, and that's it. And because of this, I > don't count it worth checking for. How would you know if it did happen? Malloc returns you a valid pointer when you pass it 0! Wouldn't you rather catch the problem right there than the side effect that it causes? This is like saying that your car's engine still runs even though you haven't changed the oil in 80,000 miles. Even though that preventative measure doesn't save you every single time (and seldom does anything), that one or two times when you do need it it pays back in droves. > > No, it doesn't. If you pass in a pointer that's NULL, it's a mistake. This > > helps you catch logical errors in your code. It alsmost sounds as if > > you're arguing that it won't help you, well, after doing as much code as > > I've done and seen hairline problems be caused by stuff like this, IT > > DOES! > I'm not complaining about passing a NULL pointer (not that I've seen > _that_ happen, either), I'm complaining about zeroing the pointer > afterwards. Why? Attempting to dereference a NULL pointer will cause a protection fault and the problem will stop you. If you didn't zero it out and attempted to use that memory that was just freed, you won't get a protection fault or any sort of fault because it's in your program's local heap. And God help you if you write to it and wind up corrupting your local heap pointers which may not be discovered until many mallocs() later. > I've seen a bug that that would have prevented exactly once, > and that was in a malloc debugging package, and a desk check caught > it. Again, I don't count it worth checking for. On the other paw, if it's > something that you have problems with often, then, by all means, check for > it. I don't have that problem often. In fact it rarely happens, but usually when it happens, it's because someone *ELSE's* code overwrote data that it shouldn't have. And when it does happen, I don't spend years scratching my head trying to debug an intermittent problem. I get stopped dead and within a few minutes I can find the source of the problem even if it's in someone else's code. It isn't just good for finding bugs in *YOUR* code, it's good for finding bugs in others' code as well, and that's really important when you're working on a project with more than one person. Your approach offers no such protection and lord knows where the code would end up. The consequences are nonobvious. > > cleared a pointer that you shouldn't have or are passing it the wrong one, > > or something accidentally overwrote it with 0s. This is to help catch bugs > > that would surface later on as really nasty side effect bugs, and it does > > help, and does no harm. > Again, I've never seen it happen. Usually when I have an overrun screw it > either smashes the stack outright (ever see a SIGSEGV handler recurse?), > or it corrupts the memory system. Twice in more than a decade isn't very > many times, though. Again, if this is a problem you encounter often then > it behooves you to check for it. I don't, so I don't. I've been on far too many embedded, multithreaded apps, and multiprocessor OS projects and have seen this type of thing happen, and the consequences are especially bad in embedded systems. The server control micros I work on are required to run code that must run for years. No downtime. It must outlast the OS that's running on the machine it supports. I can't afford even the tiniest glitch or problem. And any small advantage or additional check I can put in to help ensure it, you had better believe I'm going to do. There's also no reason not to, but to have a violent opposition to protecting yourself, that's crazy! > Anyway, We've both had our say on the issue, and I suspect that what's > going to happen is that you are going to keep doing things your way, and Damn right. Because I've seen it save lots of head scratching time. > reading this (if any), will form their own conclusions. I suspect that if > I saw the bugs you described more often, I'd agree with you. And if you interviewed with me with an immovable attitude when someone shows you an additional level of protection, you'd get escorted out immediately, especially considering how there's so little to do up front and how large the payoff can potentially be. By advocating not checking for things like this, you have no way of knowing if your code is doing the right thing. Just becuase it doesn't crash doesn't mean it's not doing something wrong, either. So while this little helpful thing may not be evident *TO YOU*, others can benefit from it, especially since we have a lot of newbies on the list. Another helpful benefit is creating header guards around each memory block allocated - a default string or sequence of bytes that's attached to the beginning (and end) of every block of data. So when someone asks you for 64 bytes of data, tack a 32 byte header string on the beginning and 32 byte tail on the end (making a total of 128 bytes allocated) and return the allocated pointer to the first byte after the header. When you free the block, you check to see if that header guard is good. If it isn't, throw an exception. It'll help you catch people overwriting their buffers. Of course it slows things down, but you compile that out in release mode. It's only a debug time measure. > that need fixing have a note to that effect. If you pay attention when > you're making the mess in the first place, it's easier to clean up. But if you don't make a mess in the first place, there's nothing to clean up - that's my point. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 00:18:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA02397 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:17:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:22:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005101014.MAA07671@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > The same was true with the US, too. > It seems clear that Russian isn't the best example. I don't think there is a "good" example of why capitalism doesn't work. > dictature releases it's power to a more democrathic system. Perhaps > that was the problem of the implementations of communism. Communism was > ever implanted by force, using armies, and when a military force get > into power ... Right. The communism implemented was one out of fear and control. Very similar to Hitler and his comrades. ;-) > (something like the democrat party) governments on France and Germany. > Communism breeds leadership and also burocracy because gives a lot of > power to the government. It gives total control to the government, which is what I consider to be Marxist communism. For true and pure communism to work, everyone must have all of their needs and wants met. Without replicators, that task is impossible. > > If you take a look at South American countries, the problem isn't > > capitalism, but a large bit of it being drugs and corruption of > But in my thoughts corruption is something that comes from capitalism. People are corrupt anyway. Do you think in a dictatorship or communism that there isn't corruption? Capitalism has nothing to do with it. They are flawed before any sort of. > For example: drugs. Drugs is a good example of what capitalism means. Drugs are a horrible example of capitalism, and it has no bearing on what capitalism is. Capitalism has to do with a free market, not an underground one. > The drug bussines are a good example of capitalism, do all what you can > to get money, produce something that has a good market and mantein high > prizes with low production. That's not capitalism. That's just shrewd business dealings, and that occurs in communism or any other form of government. Captialism is the concept of a "Free market", where any Joe can sell anything he wants for whatever price he wishes to charge, and allows another Joe to compete with him. Customers vote with their feet. It means I have the right to work my ass off to better myself, and if I work harder than the guy next to me, I deserve extra compensation for my extra work. I'm not about to give up my standard of living, but I have no problem bringing everyone else up to my standard of living. But I ought to have the right to better myself instead of being forced to live in poverty because that's the standard for everyone. > to convert it in a great bussine. You know what happenned when > alcohol was forbidden in US. It made the Kennedys rich. ;-) > I think we give different meanings to the word > "capitalism", perhaps you mean what I name "controlled capitalism". I think what you mean is what we call Corporatism, where companies are just trying to squeeze every last dollar out of everyone and everything in site (I.E. Disney and the music industry is the biggest example of this). But in a free market, we can undermine them if it becomes bad enough, and it has happened. It's happening to MS with Linux... > > > the energy is converted in another kind of energy and finally in the more > > > useless of all, hot. > > Find a way to recycle it to heat water so we can have warm showers. ;-) > Very fun, but it's a serious issue. It can helps to avoid another glacial > age though. That's yet another topic we should not touch on, because there are so many facets of global warming that are amazingly flawed that the only thing evident from it is that none of us have a fucking clue what's going on. > Sorry, bad english, bad english ;) > I don't know much about it, it was in US and it was long ago. Imagine a city of 200,000 "natives" and suddenly it becomes inflitrated with immigrants. What happens to that economy? Suddenly far less work is available because the jobs are taken, lots of people go hungry, and those who have the money don't want to subsidize the immigrants. They hang on to their money, the economy stifles and stalls until it crashes. > many history. I'm better with old history than history about last century. > It seems there is a kind of "prohibition" of teach about what happenned > last century in Spain. Why? > fault :o), but since 1980 Spain has become a more modern and free country. > Now resembles a bit more an european country. Catholicism has less > power now in Spain than ever, or I hope so. Something different happens > in South and Central America. As far as I'm concerned, there should be no church influence in government. It only stands to fuck it up even worse. > > Like Mormonism? FWIW, As an example, the largest distributor of alcohol in > > the United States is owned by Mormons. Go figger. > A good example, I see a lot of american mormons spreading their religion > here too. Just say "Mormons". I don't like seeing "American" and "Mormons" in the same sentence. It's insulting to Americans. ;-) > US Republican party sometimes frightens me and also other heavy religious > groups of your country. They bother us, too, but they're quite a bit more benign than you think. A Hitler or Stalin won't happen in the US. There are too many groups that wouldn't stand for it. If the president screwed up and started doing wacky things that would endanger the country, you can bet your ass there'd be multiple assassination attempts. > I can't stop thinking US can easily become a new > world empire (perhaps I'm a bit biased by communist influence though) and > I don't think the US model of capitalism is the best, I like more > the european is more government controlled (I preffer government controlled > than who knows controlled, but in fact perhaps is the same :p). I want less government. I want to figure out what's best for me - not them. Because one size does not fit all. I'm offended that I have to pay medicare when I have my own medical coverage. I have no option. I *HAVE* to support the people who are too old or can't afford it. What we have in this case is half assed. Everyone should have medical coverage subsidized by the government or no one should have it. Not any of this half way crap. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 00:19:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA02406 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: pop3.dynarec.com From: Michael Koenig Message-Id: <00036752ac3ebf19_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:21:44 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I just configured my mailer to access the POP3 account on dynarec.com as well, and I received the test mail I sent there earlier - very nice ;-) -- M.I.K.e Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crud. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 00:21:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA02425 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:20:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:24:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: pop3.dynarec.com In-Reply-To: <00036752ac3ebf19_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I just configured my mailer to access the POP3 account on dynarec.com as > well, and I received the test mail I sent there earlier - very nice ;-) Ah - then it looks like the DNS has propogated OK. mail.dynarec.com Should also work. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 00:40:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA02449 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005110745.JAA00648@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <39195549.CABC675F@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 10, 2000 02:25:45 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:45:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Do you know how scary I find this thought? I really don't like this idea at > all. To maybe "correct" children who may be born mentally or physically > disabled I can just about agree with, but I really don't want to think > about us messing around with our genes. What would happen if we got it > wrong? Or we found that it turned into a virus? > What would happen if someone begins a nuclear war? Nuclear power isn't the problem the problem is the humans themselves. Of course some kind of control is needed but why limit genetic to small gene modifications? I'm not talking on doing that tomorrow. And I don't like how genetic is being carried by genetical companies and how can be used for weapon researching. But genes are a new tool that humanity have to evolve and learn new things about itself and the universe. I think many people is afraid that genetic could change the perspective of the word "human" means. The small difference between humans that someones use as excuse for racism will be ridiculous. Genetic is one of science fields with the most interest for me. > > Just take a look on some countries as India. It's what happens in dictatures. > > That's also true, yes. > Something I have heared about India today. It a few years they will have more population than China. Fools. > My great-grandfather is Spanish, apparently. Not that you could tell - I've > got blonde hair. Actually, that's one worrying thing. My hair used to be > really white-blonde when I was younger. And my family decided to take a > holiday in Spain. All the Spanish people kept telling my parents that I > couldn't be their son because they had dark hair - and they all kept > rubbing my hair! Scary... :o > There are a lot of blonde people in Spain, it isn't the most usual hair color but it isn't so rare. The colour of the hair seems become lighter when you are young. My hair seemed blonde when I was a small child, and now (the few I have :p) is brown. Just another curiosity about genes ;) > > I was also baptised. But I managed to strike a deal with my parents. If I > went to church until I was 13, I could make up my own mind about going. > Guess what? I stopped going on my 13th birthday. :) > I have the luck that my parents (mainly my father) aren't religious people and they let me decide for myself when I was quite young. > > Yes, but I don't base my beliefs on the Bible. It has been so > mis-interpreted - and even CHANGED - through the years that it can't > resemble the original. If you're going to base your belief system around > something, you could at least keep it "pure". Even the Catholic church has > changed the bible through the years to make it say what they wanted it to > say. > Bible: a small collection of old stories about Jews. That for the old testament. The new testament is the story of a man called Jesus. For me it hasn't other meaning. Just a fiction or semi-fiction story. But it has been used as holy word, ha! Every time the science discovers something against the idea they have of the world they change the interpretation of the Bible. Give any book and I will create a religion around it, it's just a question of interpreting it. > I actually have read many books about different subjects (I read a lot) and > I've made up my own mind. Sure, you can believe the bible and that Jesus > was executed because he was a rebel. Or you can believe the documents that > he was killed because he believed in a "false god". > It's sure someone was executed, perhaps a rebel or a "messiah" (meaning someone a bit or a lot mad), the Roman was a powerful civilization and had good documents. The burocracy was really impressive. > I think he probably was a rebel leader, in fact. That may well be the > reason the Romans found out about him. But Pontious Pilate (sp?) did give > Jesus a chance to renounce his God. And he refused. See? > The problem was with Sinedrin, the Jew kind of senate, but what I have readed he was the leader of a new kind of Judaism and the Jew government didn't like it. They threatened the Roman governor (Judea was a very difficult province ever, and finally Romans had to expulse all Jews from it because of multiple rebellions) to go against him. > > Oh well, for me many religious people are fools and need psichiatric help. ;) > > But surely I can't be the only one who has sat down with priests and vicars > discussing religion? The one thing which was pointed out to me by a vicar > once which has made me think is when I was talking about how God could be > an explanation for why we're all here - we know (well, we hope!) we came > from the Big Bang. His reply? Why did the Big Bang happen? It's made me > think a bit. > God isn't an explanation it's just a justification or excuse for our unknowledgement. Any of the "demonstration" of God existence said by old phylosophs (Kant, and others) are really demonstrable. Just put them on a computer boolean solver and you will find a contradiction somewhere, it is just that when you have A and no A you can demostrate everything. And also they start from wrong principies. > Maybe there is a God. Maybe there's more! I just don't know - and I'm not > going to go out and start believing in them just because they *might* > exist. And I'm certainly not going to go out and call someone "evil" just > because I believe in one God and they don't. > I'm not care about gods. I haven't saw noone, while I'm not being affected by gods I don't care about them. > Christianity (including Catholicism): you have to remember that the book > isn't "Gods word" as is so often said. It was written by men, not God. > There isn't anything didn't write by men, we are STILL the only one intelligence in the world. (Discussion about Chimps and Dophins are another think, they don't have the same kind of intelligence/culture we have). > Can you tell that I have strong feelings on the subject? :) I just hate to > be called evil because I'm not Christian. So now I've learnt a lot about > religions, just so that if it happens again, I can question their own > beliefs. I had a head start on Christianity because I was forced to go to > church every Sunday - I learnt a lot. Mainly that I didn't want to be in > church every Sunday. :)) > My parents say I'm Christian because I was baptised ;) I can agree I have a great influence from Christianism but I'm not a Christian. I only follow my own ideas. I also have readed something about Budism and Islam. Budism can be understood as way of living, a philosophy. Islamism is Christianism and Judaism arranged for the arabian tribes traditions. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 01:24:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA02501 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 01:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005110828.KAA16531@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 11, 2000 00:22:04 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:28:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > The same was true with the US, too. > > It seems clear that Russian isn't the best example. > > I don't think there is a "good" example of why capitalism doesn't work. > > Right. The communism implemented was one out of fear and control. Very > similar to Hitler and his comrades. ;-) > Yes, you hit the point. Stalin was the same kind of mad as Hitler and I always thought it was worst for comunism than for capitalism. > > (something like the democrat party) governments on France and Germany. > > Communism breeds leadership and also burocracy because gives a lot of > > power to the government. > > It gives total control to the government, which is what I consider to be > Marxist communism. For true and pure communism to work, everyone must have > all of their needs and wants met. Without replicators, that task is > impossible. > Perhaps people doesn't really knows what their real needs are. What someone needs really for living? > > For example: drugs. Drugs is a good example of what capitalism means. > > Drugs are a horrible example of capitalism, and it has no bearing on what > capitalism is. Capitalism has to do with a free market, not an underground > one. > Ha! Capitalism has to do with earn money/power. > Captialism is the concept of a "Free market", where any Joe can sell > anything he wants for whatever price he wishes to charge, and allows > another Joe to compete with him. Customers vote with their feet. It means > I have the right to work my ass off to better myself, and if I work harder > than the guy next to me, I deserve extra compensation for my extra work. > I think the real phylosophy behind capitalism isn't that is to earn as much power/money/resources from other people as you can to become the richest. A kind of wild natural selection. There are some theorically human ideas as solidarity that aren't covered with capitalism. We have different conceptions about it. > I'm not about to give up my standard of living, but I have no problem > bringing everyone else up to my standard of living. But I ought to have > the right to better myself instead of being forced to live in poverty > because that's the standard for everyone. > A bit egoistic but it's fine for me. My idea of communism is: work together so everybody could live better one day or other. We share the same problems we just have to collaborate not to compete. There is also the alternative of competing collaboration ;). > > to convert it in a great bussine. You know what happenned when > > alcohol was forbidden in US. > > It made the Kennedys rich. ;-) > But then they all dead ;). > > I think we give different meanings to the word > > "capitalism", perhaps you mean what I name "controlled capitalism". > > I think what you mean is what we call Corporatism, where companies are > just trying to squeeze every last dollar out of everyone and everything in > site (I.E. Disney and the music industry is the biggest example of > this). But in a free market, we can undermine them if it becomes bad > enough, and it has happened. It's happening to MS with Linux... > But power as energy or mass has the propierty to easily concentrate in one small point. From a good starting scene you could become ever in a monopolistic scene. This is because capitalism helps ever the better, when a someone gets enough power it will ever get over all newcommers. You have to have a powerful government to avoid that but government ever follow the money and power. You will have ever the same problem. It's the kind of philosophy behind capitalism what it's grown. Greedy and egoism are in the roots of capitalism. > > > > the energy is converted in another kind of energy and finally in the more > > > > useless of all, hot. > > > Find a way to recycle it to heat water so we can have warm showers. ;-) > > Very fun, but it's a serious issue. It can helps to avoid another glacial > > age though. > > That's yet another topic we should not touch on, because there are so > many facets of global warming that are amazingly flawed that the only > thing evident from it is that none of us have a fucking clue what's going > on. > Too true. Lately I have readed that global warmup will become in more unestable wheather, more hot first but later will become in a new glacial age. > > Sorry, bad english, bad english ;) > > I don't know much about it, it was in US and it was long ago. > > Imagine a city of 200,000 "natives" and suddenly it becomes inflitrated > with immigrants. What happens to that economy? Suddenly far less work is > available because the jobs are taken, lots of people go hungry, and those > who have the money don't want to subsidize the immigrants. They hang on to > their money, the economy stifles and stalls until it crashes. > Europe and US have now that problem now also. A lot of people from south poor countries are coming. This is raising racism all over Europe and is becoming a great problem. And the solution isn't to let them go into Europe or US. It is to arrange things in their countries. But capitalist doesn't like that because they want cheaper workhand. Capitalism is against full emploiment because makes workhand too expensive, what they call "full emploiment" it's 5% of unemploiment. But still in that 5% could be a lot of people suffering. > > many history. I'm better with old history than history about last century. > > It seems there is a kind of "prohibition" of teach about what happenned > > last century in Spain. > > Why? > Something similar what it's happening now in countries as Argentina or Chile. The non democratic band won the Civil War, a lot of year later (when the dictator died) there was a peaceful transition. Now the descendants of the winners want everyone forget what happenned in Spain that years. I don't want revenge but I can't forget what happened. They destroyed the country and Spain was lost decades of development. It becomes one of the less modern european country until 1960-70 when things become to change. Now we are nearly as all other european countries. > As far as I'm concerned, there should be no church influence in > government. It only stands to fuck it up even worse. > They Spanish church still tries to influence in politic. Hopefully they aren't so succeful now. > > > Like Mormonism? FWIW, As an example, the largest distributor of alcohol in > > > the United States is owned by Mormons. Go figger. > > A good example, I see a lot of american mormons spreading their religion > > here too. > > Just say "Mormons". I don't like seeing "American" and "Mormons" in the > same sentence. It's insulting to Americans. ;-) > I only say they were from US. > > US Republican party sometimes frightens me and also other heavy religious > > groups of your country. > > They bother us, too, but they're quite a bit more benign than you think. A > Hitler or Stalin won't happen in the US. There are too many groups that > wouldn't stand for it. If the president screwed up and started doing wacky > things that would endanger the country, you can bet your ass there'd be > multiple assassination attempts. > I feel a bit better ;) > > I can't stop thinking US can easily become a new > > world empire (perhaps I'm a bit biased by communist influence though) and > > I don't think the US model of capitalism is the best, I like more > > the european is more government controlled (I preffer government controlled > > than who knows controlled, but in fact perhaps is the same :p). > > I want less government. I want to figure out what's best for me - not > them. Because one size does not fit all. > It could be good if you are stronger than anyone else or when everybody is good people but could be dangerous if it isn't the case. > I'm offended that I have to pay medicare when I have my own medical > coverage. I have no option. I *HAVE* to support the people who are too old > or can't afford it. What we have in this case is half assed. Everyone > should have medical coverage subsidized by the government or no one should > have it. Not any of this half way crap. > The better is that all have medical coverage subsidized by the government, as it happens in europe. The problem is there are some people who are so silly to try to get over benefits from it. Do you understand the word solidarity? The problem against comunism is that people wants solidarity for themselves but not solidarity for the others. But I think it is more a problem of culture and education than a problem of human nature. But who in could change so heavily the culture? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 02:00:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02698 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:00:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005110906.LAA02624@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: MUL8: SI Small test (fwd) In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 10, 2000 06:41:29 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:06:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Grrrr.. This kind of thing really annoys me. I really don't understand > *NOT* protecting yourself during coding at every possible turn. The > background: > > Instead of calling malloc(), create a MyMalloc() or equivalent macro that: > > * Verifies the size isn't 0 > * Makes damn sure it's a valid pointer on return > * Zeros the memory > > And instead of having free(), create a MyFree(void **) that does: > > * Verifies that the incoming pointer isn't NULL > * Verifies that what the incoming pointer points to isn't NULL > * Frees the memory block > * Zeros what the incomnig pointer points to to prevent pointer reuse > > It's a preventative measure to catch common problems (and problems created > by side effects), and I get *ARGUED WITH* that this shouldn't be done, and > that somehow it's an "Oh, well, if *YOU* have *THOPSE* kinds of problems, > then by all means, go ahead!" type problem. Sheesh! What is it with newbie > pride anyway? > Do you want support? You have my support. Preventive measures are ever better than later get into great problems. I don't know why Nyef is against that. The only thing against your point is lazyness. And I can't think he is a so good programmer that he never makes a mistake. And what he has said about moderm software development ... Well, I'm really angry with the kind of buggy software we have all to deal with. The great problem with Nyef point is that if you let a small bug once you will admit more and more bugs in later developments. Finally you will have an useless system. Oh, I will have to implement it on the SI project. ;) I saw your functions MyMalloc and MyFree on DRMZ80 code and I realised you used them for checking problems. But I don't really thought it was so important. In fact I have a so small programming experience with C that I still don't know much about this kind of problems. The discussion has helped me to see that I have found sometimes this kind of problems in my code but I didn't realised how to handle it. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 02:06:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02713 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:10:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005110828.KAA16531@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > It gives total control to the government, which is what I consider to be > > Marxist communism. For true and pure communism to work, everyone must have > > all of their needs and wants met. Without replicators, that task is > > impossible. > Perhaps people doesn't really knows what their real needs are. What > someone needs really for living? Needs meaning clean water, decent quality food, basic transportation, etc... I don't ever expect the government to supply me with computers because I need/want them, but I would expect any sort of communist control to take care of the things that keep me alive. Anything beyond that is luxury. > > Drugs are a horrible example of capitalism, and it has no bearing on what > > capitalism is. Capitalism has to do with a free market, not an underground > Ha! Capitalism has to do with earn money/power. Uh... no. That's how it can be abused. You're taking one small facet of how it can be bent and think it's the basic definition of the word. NOT SO! > > Captialism is the concept of a "Free market", where any Joe can sell > > anything he wants for whatever price he wishes to charge, and allows > > another Joe to compete with him. Customers vote with their feet. It means > > I have the right to work my ass off to better myself, and if I work harder > > than the guy next to me, I deserve extra compensation for my extra work. > I think the real phylosophy behind capitalism isn't that is to earn as much > power/money/resources from other people as you can to become the richest. Wrong. See above. > A kind of wild natural selection. There are some theorically human ideas > as solidarity that aren't covered with capitalism. We have different > conceptions about it. Except consider that I'm smack dab in the middle of it and you're on the outside looking in. I have a unique perspective. Just about everything you hear about is large corporate corporatism, which is *NOT* what capitalism is all about. Very little of large corporations activities affect my daily life, but that's all you hear about on the news. I can see why your views of it are so skewed. > > I'm not about to give up my standard of living, but I have no problem > > bringing everyone else up to my standard of living. But I ought to have > > the right to better myself instead of being forced to live in poverty > > because that's the standard for everyone. > A bit egoistic but it's fine for me. What's egotistic about it? If I work harder than the next guy, he doesn't deserve as much as me. If he works just as hard, he does. If he works harder, he deserves more. > My idea of communism is: work together > so everybody could live better one day or other. A bit of background: I'm in the tax bracket of what's called (in tax categories) the "super rich". There is only one tax bracket above me. 36% of my income goes to the federal government. My total taxation rate is 48% if you include state tax, medicare, and social security. My view on money and wealth mostly in line with what most of my peers think. I know a few greedy people, but they are in their late 30s and still single because of their gluttony. I'll admit that I want more money, but my motivation is not what you think. I look at money as an enabling tool. My only goal now is to make enough so I can retire early, and do things with myself that will benefit a large group of people, and spend time with my family. In a way, with Z80 emulators, talks about dynamic recompilation, etc... I'm giving away my hard work for the benefit of others, and I'd do that full time if I could. So in other words, how can I take my money and make it benefit others? If I was to suddenly discover replicator technology, I wouldn't sell it. I'd patent it and place it in the public domain so no one and everyone could own it. I am constantly fighting people at work who are in it for the money. I find their presence in my teams offensive because I do care about doing a good job, and they just want to get it done so they can get paid. They are the dark side of capitalism. > We share the same problems > we just have to collaborate not to compete. There is also the alternative > of competing collaboration ;). But competition also moves us forward. Do you really think we'd have greater than 1GHZ CPUs today if there wasn't fierece competition? > a someone gets enough power it will ever get over all newcommers. You have > to have a powerful government to avoid that but government ever follow the > money and power. You will have ever the same problem. It's the kind of > philosophy behind capitalism what it's grown. Greedy and egoism are in the > roots of capitalism. No, you've got that backwards, Victor. Greed and egotism can sprout out of capitalism, but it does not require greed or ego to be a capitalist. I'm telling you, as someone who is right smack dab in the middle of it, your views are flawed! I can imagine why, though, because all you get are reports about how company x is crushing company y, etc... Consider that there are millions of people who are part of the capitalist system that don't share the crush all views of tyrannical corporations. Most don't. > > That's yet another topic we should not touch on, because there are so > > many facets of global warming that are amazingly flawed that the only > > thing evident from it is that none of us have a fucking clue what's going > Too true. Lately I have readed that global warmup will become in more > unestable wheather, more hot first but later will become in a new glacial > age. Tune in next week when that story changes with new findings. ;-) > > who have the money don't want to subsidize the immigrants. They hang on to > > their money, the economy stifles and stalls until it crashes. > Europe and US have now that problem now also. Not to the extreme it did in the late 20's when the US population was about 10 million and 20,000 new people were immigrating *PER DAY*. Now we've got over 300 million in the US, and immigration is far lower than that. We also have an economy to support it. > like that because they want cheaper workhand. Capitalism is against full > emploiment because makes workhand too expensive, what they call "full > emploiment" it's 5% of unemploiment. But still in that 5% could be a lot > of people suffering. Again, you're attributing too much to capitalism. Unemployment is at 4.3% currently, and that's considered noise by anyone who has studied capitalistic systems. One out of every 20 is unemployed, which at this rate means that they're just moving jobs. We cannot recruit people fast enough in basically any industry in the US. We're hiring some real shitheads in the tech sector, too, and a lot are foreigners. > > As far as I'm concerned, there should be no church influence in > > government. It only stands to fuck it up even worse. > They Spanish church still tries to influence in politic. Hopefully they > aren't so succeful now. I noticed the Catholic church has started issuing apologies and is now teaching from the bible rather than Catholic doctorines. Those are STRONG signs that it's crumbling. > > Just say "Mormons". I don't like seeing "American" and "Mormons" in the > > same sentence. It's insulting to Americans. ;-) > I only say they were from US. Don't even say that. Just say "Mormons". That's the upitome of the dark side of a capitalistic pyramid business hidden behind the shroud of a religion. > > They bother us, too, but they're quite a bit more benign than you think. A > > Hitler or Stalin won't happen in the US. There are too many groups that > > wouldn't stand for it. If the president screwed up and started doing wacky > > things that would endanger the country, you can bet your ass there'd be > > multiple assassination attempts. > I feel a bit better ;) Think of it this way - The United States does have a federal government which oversees minimum standards of all 50 states, but the states can do what they want within reason. We have an open country where we can lambast the president or anyone in the political system without fear of retaliation or jail, so we're going to speak our mind when something gets screwed up. Take a look at Viet Nam. Even though it took 5 years of protesting, it eventually wore down the pride and government officials until we pulled out (and that whole Viet Nam thing was a dumb idea to begin with). All that was caused by a bunch of radical hippies. Take a look at David Duke. This was a guy who was part of the KKK, a racist white supremicist running for Congress. This guy is serious bad news. Go to http://www.duke.org/. He's *EXTREMELY* well known and *VERY* unpopular. He might have a chance of getting support in a few southeastern states, but no one elsewhere would tolerate him. He's as close to a Hitler as we've got. These people get found out quick. He's now trying to get a license to sell life insurance. So not to worry. That kind of tyranny will be overthrown very quickly. > > I want less government. I want to figure out what's best for me - not > > them. Because one size does not fit all. > It could be good if you are stronger than anyone else or when everybody > is good people but could be dangerous if it isn't the case. Of course, but my standard of living shouldn't have to be lowered to the least common denominator. We should just bring everyone up! > > I'm offended that I have to pay medicare when I have my own medical > > coverage. I have no option. I *HAVE* to support the people who are too old > > or can't afford it. What we have in this case is half assed. Everyone > The better is that all have medical coverage subsidized by the government, > as it happens in europe. The problem is there are some people who are so > silly to try to get over benefits from it. Yes, and that's the greed I've been talking about that prevlaent in just about everyone. As you understand first hand, it's present even without capitalism. > Do you understand the word > solidarity? The problem against comunism is that people wants solidarity > for themselves but not solidarity for the others. But I think it is more > a problem of culture and education than a problem of human nature. But > who in could change so heavily the culture? Right. I do agree that basic needs (education, medical, food) should be governmentally subsidized, either fully or not at all - just not in between. If we had some sort of flat tax that gave everyone medical benefits, I'd surely go for it. That would be better for the health of the nation and for the world. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 02:11:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02726 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:11:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005110917.LAA16549@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: Evil idea In-Reply-To: <00036752ac3ebf19_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> "from Michael Koenig at May 11, 2000 09:21:44 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:17:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I've got an evil idea for dynarec.com. A page against Transmeta. I can forgive they patent something like "the combination of a procesosor and a software that ....". I can forgive they hide all useful information about their products. I can forgive how they are using Linus Torvaldis. But what I can't forgive is they call "Code Morpher" to a dynarec. ;)) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 02:12:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02736 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:16:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Evil idea In-Reply-To: <200005110917.LAA16549@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I've got an evil idea for dynarec.com. A page against Transmeta. > I can forgive they patent something like "the combination of a procesosor and > a software that ....". I can forgive they hide all useful information about > their products. I can forgive how they are using Linus Torvaldis. But > what I can't forgive is they call "Code Morpher" to a dynarec. Someone want to pay the $35 it costs to register "codemorpher.com"? We can have it point to Dynarec.com. I like your evil idea, Victor. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 02:15:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02748 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:19:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: MUL8: SI Small test (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200005110906.LAA02624@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Do you want support? You have my support. If you feel you should grace it with a reply, feel free. ;-) > I saw your functions MyMalloc and MyFree on DRMZ80 code and I realised you > used them for checking problems. But I don't really thought it was so > important. In DRMZ80, you wouldn't believe how critical it is. Take a look at how much memory is allocated and deallocated. If I accidentally overwrote something just a little bit or went past the end of a structure, it'll screw me. This will catch it. > In fact I have a so small programming experience with C that I > still don't know much about this kind of problems. The discussion has > helped me to see that I have found sometimes this kind of problems in > my code but I didn't realised how to handle it. Right. And what's more, these are the types of problems that occur and you have no diea why your code is acting strange. I found it kind of offensive when he said "So if *YOU* make *THOSE* kinds of mistakes and you think you need to defend against them, so be it.", as if somehow he's above it all. I had to reprimand one of our employees (our weakest engineer) because of this exact attitude, where somehow he was infalliable. We had to rewrite 5 major pieces of his modules and did it in less than half the time that it took him to do it. I have so many horror stories of this kind of stuff that when someone doesn't listen it really infuriates me. It's one thing to say "Well, I see your point but I don't worry about it since the project is small" and another thing to vehemently defend against spending such a minor amount of time to help prevent problems. GeeZ1 -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 02:23:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02761 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:23:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391A7BD8.4941F1C6@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:22:32 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Evil idea References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > I've got an evil idea for dynarec.com. A page against Transmeta. > > I can forgive they patent something like "the combination of a procesosor and > > a software that ....". I can forgive they hide all useful information about > > their products. I can forgive how they are using Linus Torvaldis. But > > what I can't forgive is they call "Code Morpher" to a dynarec. > > Someone want to pay the $35 it costs to register "codemorpher.com"? We can > have it point to Dynarec.com. I was just about to ask if that exists... :) > I like your evil idea, Victor. ;-) So do I. Very evil. Very funny. :)) Although "code-morpher" is a very good description for "binary translation with self-modifying code handlers". It's much shorter. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 02:29:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02774 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:29:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005110935.LAA28085@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Evil idea In-Reply-To: <391A7BD8.4941F1C6@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 11, 2000 11:22:32 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:35:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Although "code-morpher" is a very good description for "binary translation > with self-modifying code handlers". It's much shorter. :)) > Code Morpher remembers me the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers. It is a name for selling a product. And for a name easy and that sound well I like more the old "dynarec". Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 02:49:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02800 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Re: MUL8: SI Small test (fwd) In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 11, 2000 02:19:41 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:55:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Do you want support? You have my support. > > If you feel you should grace it with a reply, feel free. ;-) > I think I already have enough problems in MUL8. ;) I didn't write yesterday the continuation of the SI project, may be this afternoon. > > I saw your functions MyMalloc and MyFree on DRMZ80 code and I realised you > > used them for checking problems. But I don't really thought it was so > > important. > > In DRMZ80, you wouldn't believe how critical it is. Take a look at how > much memory is allocated and deallocated. If I accidentally overwrote > something just a little bit or went past the end of a structure, it'll > screw me. This will catch it. > I still have to take a more careful look at DRMZ80, but I never find the time. > > Right. And what's more, these are the types of problems that occur and you > have no diea why your code is acting strange. > Yes I still have one of that problems in my work. I'm debugging code from other people and there is something that is overwriting some of the data I added. I still haven't found it. > I found it kind of offensive when he said "So if *YOU* make *THOSE* kinds > of mistakes and you think you need to defend against them, so be it.", as > if somehow he's above it all. > Sure he will change his opinion when he have to fight against some of those hard to identify mistakes. > I had to reprimand one of our employees (our weakest engineer) because of > this exact attitude, where somehow he was infalliable. We had to rewrite 5 > major pieces of his modules and did it in less than half the time that it > took him to do it. > I don't have such a problem. I know I'm very fallliable, unluckyly. ;) > I have so many horror stories of this kind of stuff that when someone > doesn't listen it really infuriates me. It's one thing to say "Well, I see > your point but I don't worry about it since the project is small" and > another thing to vehemently defend against spending such a minor amount of > time to help prevent problems. GeeZ1 > There are many horror stories about programming and computers. One of my professors talked me about a engeniery company that buyed a more powerful computer with a lot of memory. They wanted to speedup a heavy calculation application, but they got a small improvement. They called our university stuff and they found they was using a Fortran program (Fortran is the more used language for engeniery) that has a static memory allocation (it performed matrix calculations so the most memory the better) with the size of the max memory used in a DEFINE. So they were using only a small set of the new computer memory. This kind of stories must show people who works with computers to pay attention about what they really are doing. I don't know about other engenieries or professions but in computers there are too many bad made work. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 05:09:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02973 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:06:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Website is up! References: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, The Dynarec website is now up. If you want to take a look at the one page we have, feel free. It's also the final version of *this* logo, I'll hopefully be creating a new one when I get a good image of a CPU to use. Also, I'll be changing the whole colour scheme now. While I'm doing that, I'd like a little input. Do you prefer tables or frames? I don't mind either way, so if you want to make your choice then this is a good time to do so. I'm thinking that tables may be more useful, but if you don't like them then I can live with tables... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 05:42:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA03019 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 05:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005111248.OAA13643@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 11, 2000 02:10:52 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:48:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Needs meaning clean water, decent quality food, basic transportation, > etc... I don't ever expect the government to supply me with computers > because I need/want them, but I would expect any sort of communist control > to take care of the things that keep me alive. Anything beyond that is > luxury. > Agreed. > Uh... no. That's how it can be abused. You're taking one small facet of > how it can be bent and think it's the basic definition of the word. NOT > SO! > But it's being abused. > > A kind of wild natural selection. There are some theorically human ideas > > as solidarity that aren't covered with capitalism. We have different > > conceptions about it. > > Except consider that I'm smack dab in the middle of it and you're on the > outside looking in. I have a unique perspective. Just about everything you > hear about is large corporate corporatism, which is *NOT* what capitalism > is all about. Very little of large corporations activities affect my daily > life, but that's all you hear about on the news. I can see why your views > of it are so skewed. > Large corporations don't affect your life? It's hard to believe. Large corporation have the control of the most mass production factories, the most advanced technologies and the most resources. And they also have a lot of power in governments. Really hard to believe. Large corporate corporatism is how capitalism is actually being carried. Just take a look on how many big corporations are fussing each others. > > > I'm not about to give up my standard of living, but I have no problem > > > bringing everyone else up to my standard of living. But I ought to have > > > the right to better myself instead of being forced to live in poverty > > > because that's the standard for everyone. > > A bit egoistic but it's fine for me. > > What's egotistic about it? If I work harder than the next guy, he doesn't > deserve as much as me. If he works just as hard, he does. If he works > harder, he deserves more. > Think about many people working really hard and getting the worst pay. The people who earn the most money in the real capitalism system isn't who works more but who has power or control of the capital. How much money earns a miner, they work really hard and it's a dangerous work. And then think in how much money earn the directive of a large mine company. Perhaps he think he is working hardest, but is really? It's perhaps ok a small difference because there are fewer directives, prepared people, but the real difference is too large. > > My idea of communism is: work together > > so everybody could live better one day or other. > > A bit of background: I'm in the tax bracket of what's called (in tax > categories) the "super rich". There is only one tax bracket above me. > 36% of my income goes to the federal government. My total taxation rate is > 48% if you include state tax, medicare, and social security. My view on > money and wealth mostly in line with what most of my peers think. I know a > few greedy people, but they are in their late 30s and still single because > of their gluttony. > You can consider yourself afortunate. While there is a big difference in what someone earns for its work this kind of taxes is needed. > I'll admit that I want more money, but my motivation is not what you > think. I look at money as an enabling tool. My only goal now is to make > enough so I can retire early, and do things with myself that will benefit > a large group of people, and spend time with my family. In a way, with Z80 > emulators, talks about dynamic recompilation, etc... I'm giving away my > hard work for the benefit of others, and I'd do that full time if I could. > I have also similar thoughts, but I'm still in the beginning ;) The problem is how money makes us slaves of work. And although you think in that way (the same I think also), there are too many people who don't. What an excuse has someone to control more money/power than a small country? It's so intelligence or useful for the humanity that we need to let them so much resources? I don't think so. Money has become an illness for many people who only thought in earn more and more, why? I can't what their thoughts are. And the people who has so much money also has a great control over the world. What made them better? > So in other words, how can I take my money and make it benefit others? If > I was to suddenly discover replicator technology, I wouldn't sell it. I'd > patent it and place it in the public domain so no one and everyone could > own it. > A single person can't do anything, it's needed a large change in the society. > I am constantly fighting people at work who are in it for the money. I > find their presence in my teams offensive because I do care about doing a > good job, and they just want to get it done so they can get paid. They are > the dark side of capitalism. > They are the most spreaded side of the capitalism. Perhaps the kind of dreamed capitalism you talk about it's good, but the real capitalism which is being implemented all around the world isn't that. It's a very greedy kind of capitalism. The problem isn't the theory but the implementation. > > We share the same problems > > we just have to collaborate not to compete. There is also the alternative > > of competing collaboration ;). > > But competition also moves us forward. Do you really think we'd have > greater than 1GHZ CPUs today if there wasn't fierece competition? > Do you think that the crazy race for 1Ghz between Intel and AMD is a good example? Competition is good. Too much competition isn't, it can waste more resources than really needed. > > a someone gets enough power it will ever get over all newcommers. You have > > to have a powerful government to avoid that but government ever follow the > > money and power. You will have ever the same problem. It's the kind of > > philosophy behind capitalism what it's grown. Greedy and egoism are in the > > roots of capitalism. > > No, you've got that backwards, Victor. Greed and egotism can sprout out of > capitalism, but it does not require greed or ego to be a capitalist. > Of course it doesn't. But many of the capitalism I see is builded around greed and ego. > I'm telling you, as someone who is right smack dab in the middle of it, > your views are flawed! I can imagine why, though, because all you get are > reports about how company x is crushing company y, etc... Consider that > there are millions of people who are part of the capitalist system that > don't share the crush all views of tyrannical corporations. Most don't. > I'm sure that my views are biased, as well as yours can be biased in another way. But this doesn't change the reality. And the hope we have that a better world could arise :) And I'm also in the capitalism system, still as a middle time worker, but I'm. I bought thinks in shops and I have private propierty. But I think that there are many things that must change. And I also understand there are a lot of people like me. But the people who is really controlling this world seems to be nearer to the tyrannical corporations. > > > who have the money don't want to subsidize the immigrants. They hang on to > > > their money, the economy stifles and stalls until it crashes. > > Europe and US have now that problem now also. > > Not to the extreme it did in the late 20's when the US population was > about 10 million and 20,000 new people were immigrating *PER DAY*. Now > we've got over 300 million in the US, and immigration is far lower than > that. We also have an economy to support it. > Now immigration is more controlled but can easily become uncontrolled. Spain is called the south door of europe, many people from north africa and lately also from center africa come illegally. They are still relatively few, but their number is growing. You have to think we are only 15 Km from Morocco coast. They usually come in small boats, many of them sink but many more come. It could become a very great problem in next years. > > Again, you're attributing too much to capitalism. Unemployment is at 4.3% > currently, and that's considered noise by anyone who has studied > capitalistic systems. One out of every 20 is unemployed, which at this > rate means that they're just moving jobs. We cannot recruit people fast > enough in basically any industry in the US. We're hiring some real > shitheads in the tech sector, too, and a lot are foreigners. > Theorically. I don't like capitalistic theory. > I noticed the Catholic church has started issuing apologies and is now > teaching from the bible rather than Catholic doctorines. Those are STRONG > signs that it's crumbling. > They still have some influence in poor countries as South America, but they are fading out. > Don't even say that. Just say "Mormons". That's the upitome of the dark > side of a capitalistic pyramid business hidden behind the shroud of a > religion. > A really good definition of Mormons. > Think of it this way - The United States does have a federal government > which oversees minimum standards of all 50 states, but the states can do > what they want within reason. We have an open country where we can lambast > the president or anyone in the political system without fear of > retaliation or jail, so we're going to speak our mind when something gets > screwed up. Take a look at Viet Nam. Even though it took 5 years of > protesting, it eventually wore down the pride and government officials > until we pulled out (and that whole Viet Nam thing was a dumb idea to > begin with). All that was caused by a bunch of radical hippies. > Too large time spended trying to convince them. A lot of people from both sides died in that war. But something that seems clear today can easily change another day. And your southern states are a bit worrying. > So not to worry. That kind of tyranny will be overthrown very quickly. > I hope so. > > Of course, but my standard of living shouldn't have to be lowered to the > least common denominator. We should just bring everyone up! > If it's possible, but we can't arise the standard living of 6 billions to the standard living of Bill Gates or another super-rich. The resources are far limited. We could perhaps a heavy robotized society with only some millions of people living, but what happens with the rest of the people. Population can easily grown farther than any resource or technique you can think about. > Yes, and that's the greed I've been talking about that prevlaent in just > about everyone. As you understand first hand, it's present even without > capitalism. > The humanity needs to change they way the see the live. A new kind of culture must arise that helps greedy to be limited. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 08:03:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03189 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Evil idea From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <200005110917.LAA16549@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-Id: <000367592d027026_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005110917.LAA16549@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:07:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I've got an evil idea for dynarec.com. A page against Transmeta. >I can forgive they patent something like "the combination of a procesosor and >a software that ....". I can forgive they hide all useful information about >their products. I can forgive how they are using Linus Torvaldis. But >what I can't forgive is they call "Code Morpher" to a dynarec. >;)) "At last we will reveal ourselves to Transmeta. At last we will have revenge." Sorry, just couldn't resist ;-) >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Are you a turtle? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 08:03:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03194 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:03:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: pop3.dynarec.com From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0003675924edb889_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:04:59 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Ah - then it looks like the DNS has propogated OK. mail.dynarec.com Should >also work. Indeed, I configured pop3 and mail, although I only mentioned pop3. It also means that the server uses pap instead of chap, otherwise it wouldn't work with BeOS. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e If while you are in school, there is a shortage of qualified personnel in a particular field, then by the time you graduate with the necessary qualifications, that field's employment market is glutted. -- Marguerite Emmons --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 08:09:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03208 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: Michael Koenig In-Reply-To: <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> Message-Id: <000367594288e721_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> References: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:13:16 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >The Dynarec website is now up. If you want to take a look at the one page >we have, feel free. It's also the final version of *this* logo, I'll >hopefully be creating a new one when I get a good image of a CPU to use. BTW, the logo is centered in Netscape and Opera and left aligned in NetPositive, but I don't know why. As long as it doesn't hinder usability I can live with that though. >Also, I'll be changing the whole colour scheme now. While I'm doing that, >I'd like a little input. Do you prefer tables or frames? Good question. Normally I don't like frames that much. I think that means that I perfer tables ;-) >I don't mind >either way, so if you want to make your choice then this is a good time to >do so. I'm thinking that tables may be more useful, but if you don't like >them then I can live with tables... :) I guess you mean you can live with frames... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Only through hard work and perseverance can one truly suffer. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 08:20:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03247 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036759678b5442_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:23:37 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Forgot to mention that you wrote me as "Koenig" again instead of "K& ouml;nig". BTW, does that mean that all group members now have the right to modify the global site? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Software, n.: Formal evening attire for female computer analysts. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 08:23:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03260 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:28:47 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Message-ID: <20000511162846.A1071@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> <000367594288e721_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <000367594288e721_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>; from Michael Koenig on Thu, May 11, 2000 at 05:13:16PM +0200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Thu, May 11, 2000 at 05:13:16PM +0200, Michael Koenig wrote: > > >Also, I'll be changing the whole colour scheme now. While I'm doing that, > >I'd like a little input. Do you prefer tables or frames? > > Good question. Normally I don't like frames that much. > I think that means that I perfer tables ;-) > > >I don't mind > >either way, so if you want to make your choice then this is a good time to > >do so. I'm thinking that tables may be more useful, but if you don't like > >them then I can live with tables... :) > > I guess you mean you can live with frames... I'd suggest a combination of tables and shtml (might need to be enabled in httpd.conf [1]) - this lets you do frame-type stuff like page headers and side toolbars, but without frames ;-) Using shtml would probably help to make the site more maintainable, too. Jules [1] The lines are: AddType text/html .shtml AddHandler server-parsed .shtml -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 12:50:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03600 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 12:50:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: Homepage & DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" Message-ID: <0003675d310ca978_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:54:42 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I changed my dynarec.com hompage (mainly collection of interesting links) and also uploaded a new revision of DRFAQ with only small changes, but you might want to take a look at that modified credits section ;-) -- M.I.K.e Help me, I'm a prisoner in a Fortune cookie file! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 15:08:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03776 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01bfbb9d$f466ca60$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> <000367594288e721_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:54:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >The Dynarec website is now up. If you want to take a look at the one page > >we have, feel free. It's also the final version of *this* logo, I'll > >hopefully be creating a new one when I get a good image of a CPU to use. > > BTW, the logo is centered in Netscape and Opera and left aligned in > NetPositive, but I don't know why. As long as it doesn't hinder usability I > can live with that though. That's a bug with NetPositive. To centre an image was in HTML 2, so if it doesn't work then it's the fault of your browser. Sorry! I'm not going to change it though. :p > >Also, I'll be changing the whole colour scheme now. While I'm doing that, > >I'd like a little input. Do you prefer tables or frames? > > Good question. Normally I don't like frames that much. > I think that means that I perfer tables ;-) That's fine. I don't care. Tables take longer to load - but you can do more with them (flashier effects for instance). But frames can be great for navigation. But a well-designed table using some form of server-side input can certainly be nice. It's another reason I asked if we'd have CGI. :) > >I don't mind > >either way, so if you want to make your choice then this is a good time to > >do so. I'm thinking that tables may be more useful, but if you don't like > >them then I can live with tables... :) > > I guess you mean you can live with frames... I can live with either - it doesn't bother me! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 15:08:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03787 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01bfbb9d$f551c6a0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> <00036759678b5442_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:00:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Forgot to mention that you wrote me as "Koenig" again instead of "K& > ouml;nig". Actually, no, I just haven't changed it from the original. Oops. I'll do that now... :) > BTW, does that mean that all group members now have the right to modify the > global site? No idea. But I have. :) Er... my plans for tonight changed somewhat. I planned to do my Jujitsu as normal and then come home and work on the site design. But my plans changed when I was asked by two German girls to go have Ice Cream with them. Sorry, but I think I made the right choice. I mean... Home vs Ice Cream. Girls vs Computer. No, it was a good choice... ;) Mind you, I didn't really think it'd take 2 hours. Oops! Oh well, I don't care. I enjoyed it! It was a great mix of English and German (though I'll freely admit there was more English being used). And I'm having German lessons now too! Woohoo! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 15:08:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03793 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002001bfbb9d$f6120960$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> <00036759678b5442_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:07:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Forgot to mention that you wrote me as "Koenig" again instead of "K& > ouml;nig". It's fixed. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 20:14:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04058 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 20:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 20:18:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Evil idea In-Reply-To: <200005110935.LAA28085@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Although "code-morpher" is a very good description for "binary translation > > with self-modifying code handlers". It's much shorter. :)) > Code Morpher remembers me the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers. I used to refer to them as the Mighty Morhine Motherfuckers. ;-) It was beyond my time when they were popular. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 20:52:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04093 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 20:52:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 20:56:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005111248.OAA13643@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Uh... no. That's how it can be abused. You're taking one small facet of > > how it can be bent and think it's the basic definition of the word. NOT > > SO! > But it's being abused. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. You cannot point to large corporations and say "See how bad Capitalism is?". That's like saying that every Mormon in the world is an acohol distributing two faced liar when clearly that isn't the case. What you're not seeing is many competitive companies coexisting nicely. It happens daily, and I see evidence of it everywhere. Of course, that doesn't make news, now, does it? I don't expect you to hear about it or even take it in to account. As an example, it's really common in the pinball business to refer people to their competitors when they are overloaded or don't have parts. > > Except consider that I'm smack dab in the middle of it and you're on the > > outside looking in. I have a unique perspective. Just about everything you > > hear about is large corporate corporatism, which is *NOT* what capitalism > > is all about. Very little of large corporations activities affect my daily > > life, but that's all you hear about on the news. I can see why your views > > of it are so skewed. > Large corporations don't affect your life? It's hard to believe. I said my *DAILY* life. Case in point - Disney. I don't buy their products and won't buy their products because they are an evil, money grubbing, thieving, controlling company and all they are about is money. I find that reprehensible. > corporation have the control of the most mass production factories, the most > advanced technologies and the most resources. And they also have a lot > of power in governments. Not anywhere near as much as you think. MS Is a perfect example of this. The government has lambasted IBM, AT&T, and Microsoft and believe me, they had *MASSIVE* influence in governmental positions. Didn't work, did it? > Really hard to believe. Large corporate > corporatism is how capitalism is actually being carried. Just take a look > on how many big corporations are fussing each others. But that still doesn't make captialism bad as a whole, Victor. Lots of what you're seeing (AMD vs. Intel) is simple jealousy, so they sue eachother right and left to try to get money out of the other guy. It's a side effect of capitalism. Not the cause of it. > > > > the right to better myself instead of being forced to live in poverty > > > > because that's the standard for everyone. > > > A bit egoistic but it's fine for me. > > What's egotistic about it? If I work harder than the next guy, he doesn't > > deserve as much as me. If he works just as hard, he does. If he works > > harder, he deserves more. > Think about many people working really hard and getting the worst pay. Ditch diggers, mechanics, mail clerks, policemen, etc... yep. I agree wholeheartedly. And "working hard" is a relative thing. See below. > The > people who earn the most money in the real capitalism system isn't who > works more but who has power or control of the capital. How much money > earns a miner, they work really hard and it's a dangerous work. And then > think in how much money earn the directive of a large mine company. Perhaps > he think he is working hardest, but is really? I've profiled the life of several CEOs - one being Andy Grove, now chairmain of Intel. On a day to day basis, his stress level is extremely high. If he makes one wrong decision, millions are out to lynch him (that whole Pentium floating point issue that got horribly blown out of proportion). Every thing he does he has to do with very careful and calculated planning, otherwise he could make a lot of investors and clients extremely angry and possibly be sued out of existence by them. He also could tank an entire economy with a wrong decision. With that amount of stress, I'm sorry, but he earns it. The miner's work may be dirty and dangerous, but he leaves it at the mine shaft when he goes home for the evening or weekend. Same deal with the mechanic - to an even lesser degree. But they don't *HAVE* to be mechanics, miners, or ditchdiggers. Anyone can do anything, and if you're not making it, you're not trying hard enough. I was *DIRT* poor for many years after high school. I said "This sucks!". I worked hard and found a way to improve myself. Sadly, lots of others don't. > > A bit of background: I'm in the tax bracket of what's called (in tax > > categories) the "super rich". There is only one tax bracket above me. > > 36% of my income goes to the federal government. My total taxation rate is > > 48% if you include state tax, medicare, and social security. My view on > You can consider yourself afortunate. While there is a big difference > in what someone earns for its work this kind of taxes is needed. I actually agree with a higher taxation rate for those who can afford it. The people on the "Bottom end" are paying little to no tax, maybe 20% total, but that's OK. I'm still going to eat well even if I'm 20% higher. FWIW, I also remember having zero money - being 2 weeks away from the street. $50 Meant if I ate for the following week. I had *NOTHING*. If my car broke, I had to fix it myself or go without. Now enter these greedy fucks who think "Well, *I* shouldn't have to pay a higher tax rate than everyone else! Those poor people should pay the same rate!" This is what you would call a Republican. They're in it to protect their own selfish agendas. > > I'll admit that I want more money, but my motivation is not what you > > think. I look at money as an enabling tool. My only goal now is to make > > enough so I can retire early, and do things with myself that will benefit > I have also similar thoughts, but I'm still in the beginning ;) The > problem is how money makes us slaves of work. Yep. Or slaves for other people's work. > And although you think > in that way (the same I think also), there are too many people who don't. > What an excuse has someone to control more money/power than a small country? > It's so intelligence or useful for the humanity that we need to let them > so much resources? I don't think so. Money has become an illness for many > people who only thought in earn more and more, why? Mostly because of mental problems, but that's a very small percentage of people. Insecurity - the desire to have to show off to people that you're successful. Even if I had 10 million dollars in the bank, I wouldn't live much differently than I do now. Maybe I'd move to a similar house in a different location, but I cannot fathom buying an $800,000 Bentley, spending $4 million for a house on the hill or any other extravagant spending. There's no point in that. In fact, if I had 10 million dollars, I'd probably start a really "cool" company that focuses on dropping the bottom out of a few markets - taking those things that are overpriced and making them equally affordable to almost everyone. I'd much rather have a company that sells things for cheap, sustains itself, and makes a lot of people happy than to try to squeeze every last dollar out of everyone. > I can't what their > thoughts are. And the people who has so much money also has a great control > over the world. What made them better? Ever heard the expression "Money talks"? If you have the financial means of unplugging someone else, that someone else listens to you and will do what you say. Conversely, those who live by the sword die by the sword. Of course, as you realize, this has nothing to do with capitalism. This has to do with human nature. > > So in other words, how can I take my money and make it benefit others? If > > I was to suddenly discover replicator technology, I wouldn't sell it. I'd > > patent it and place it in the public domain so no one and everyone could > A single person can't do anything, it's needed a large change in the > society. To affect things globally, act locally. I hate the phrase since it's associated with wacko environmentalists. Good ideas tend to breed quickly. And I flatly disagree that a single person can't do anything. > > find their presence in my teams offensive because I do care about doing a > > good job, and they just want to get it done so they can get paid. They are > > the dark side of capitalism. > They are the most spreaded side of the capitalism. Perhaps the kind > of dreamed capitalism you talk about it's good, but the real capitalism > which is being implemented all around the world isn't that. You keep speaking of "real" capitalism, and the bad aspects of it are just a small part of the good. > greedy kind of capitalism. The problem isn't the theory but the > implementation. Not even the implementation, but the execution of a small part of it. > > But competition also moves us forward. Do you really think we'd have > > greater than 1GHZ CPUs today if there wasn't fierece competition? > Do you think that the crazy race for 1Ghz between Intel and AMD is a > good example? Competition is good. Too much competition isn't, it > can waste more resources than really needed. I think that us having faster CPUs is doing the world a lot of good. Maybe not now, but it's advancing us toward moving to space and colonizing other planets. IT's an enabling too, and I for one am glad that companies are duking it out. Progress is happening quickly! > > No, you've got that backwards, Victor. Greed and egotism can sprout out of > > capitalism, but it does not require greed or ego to be a capitalist. > Of course it doesn't. But many of the capitalism I see is builded around > greed and ego. And I'm saying your view of capitalism is only a small part of the whole pie. It happens to be the loudest and most negative, but it's still a small part of a system that works extremely well. > > I'm telling you, as someone who is right smack dab in the middle of it, > > your views are flawed! I can imagine why, though, because all you get are > > reports about how company x is crushing company y, etc... Consider that > I'm sure that my views are biased, as well as yours can be biased in > another way. The difference is that I see both sides of it. You're only seeing one. I do agree with your points about corporatism, but your view is that is just how it all is and that flatly isn't true. > have that a better world could arise :) And I'm also in the > capitalism system, still as a middle time worker, but I'm. To the extent of the US? > thinks in shops and I have private propierty. But I think that there > are many things that must change. And I also understand there are a > lot of people like me. But the people who is really controlling this > world seems to be nearer to the tyrannical corporations. There are governmental checks and balances in the US that aren't affected by corporate influence. AT&T Got busted up. So did IBM, Standard Oil and so is MS. Just because you're a big corporation doesn't make you bad. But when you do something illegal, the government will come down on you hard. > > screwed up. Take a look at Viet Nam. Even though it took 5 years of > > protesting, it eventually wore down the pride and government officials > > until we pulled out (and that whole Viet Nam thing was a dumb idea to > > begin with). All that was caused by a bunch of radical hippies. > Too large time spended trying to convince them. A lot of people from > both sides died in that war. But something that seems clear today > can easily change another day. One thing going for the world is the increased level of communication. Radical outbursts tend to get squelched as soon as they start because word travels fast. In the late 60's, very little did. We have forums today that are instant that we didn't have back then. So the opportunity for these types of things to go unnoticed until they're too big to deal with just doesn't exist any longer. > And your southern states are a bit worrying. They are? In what way? I think you mean southeastern states, and if you're referring to the racism, it's dying. They're the most embarassing aspect of the US. I always have said the farther southeast you go in this country the lower your IQ dips. > > Of course, but my standard of living shouldn't have to be lowered to the > > least common denominator. We should just bring everyone up! > If it's possible, but we can't arise the standard living of 6 billions > to the standard living of Bill Gates or another super-rich. super-rich Doesn't mean Bill Gates. He owns an island with a home of 20,000 square feet and every amenity that exists. I live in a 2700 square foot (new) home on a 7,000 square foot lot. My house cost $221,000, and I also don't spend anywhere near my income on my house. I could afford something a lot larger and more extravagant, but it's pointless! What I have in terms of living standards isn't all that bad. It's above average, but even a house $70,000 less would be fine (there were many reasons I chose this house rather than a $150,000 one but that's topic for another discussion) for me or anyone else. > some millions of people living, but what happens with the rest of the > people. Population can easily grown farther than any resource or technique > you can think about. Absolutely. But what happens is those who work hard and look for ways to improve themselves financially eventually find a way to make it happen. Those who don't, don't. > > Yes, and that's the greed I've been talking about that prevlaent in just > > about everyone. As you understand first hand, it's present even without > > capitalism. > The humanity needs to change they way the see the live. A new kind of > culture must arise that helps greedy to be limited. Yes. But that won't happen for hundreds of years. I predict it's the invention of the replicator that will be the catalyst for a new era. That, or discovering that we're not alone in the universe. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 20:53:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04103 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 20:53:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 20:57:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <00036759678b5442_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > BTW, does that mean that all group members now have the right to modify the > global site? Yes. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 21:00:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04121 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 21:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:04:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <001f01bfbb9d$f551c6a0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Er... my plans for tonight changed somewhat. I planned to do my Jujitsu as > normal and then come home and work on the site design. But my plans changed > when I was asked by two German girls to go have Ice Cream with them. Sorry, > but I think I made the right choice. I mean... Home vs Ice Cream. Girls vs > Computer. No, it was a good choice... ;) I'm so glad to see you've got your priorities straight. *TWO* German girls, eh? Reminds me of a 3 way I had when I was 19... ;-) > Mind you, I didn't really think it'd take 2 hours. Oops! Oh well, I don't > care. I enjoyed it! It was a great mix of English and German (though I'll > freely admit there was more English being used). And I'm having German > lessons now too! Woohoo! Oh... rats. And here I was getting all excited for nothing. ;-( So you didn't get any? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 11 23:46:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA04243 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 23:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391BA883.8821974F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:45:23 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! References: <200005110955.LAA17541@pons.ac.upc.es> <391AA255.3F32B128@eurocopter.de> <000367594288e721_mailit@mailhub.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <20000511162846.A1071@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > I guess you mean you can live with frames... > > I'd suggest a combination of tables and shtml (might need to be enabled in > httpd.conf [1]) - this lets you do frame-type stuff like page headers and > side toolbars, but without frames ;-) I wasn't planning on shtml itself, but I certainly plan on the use of something server-side. CGI most likely. I don't know much about shtml, so maybe I could take a look and see how I'd use it. > Using shtml would probably help to make the site more maintainable, too. Of course. That was why I originally asked for CGI - it's the sort of thing I've found great! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 00:20:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04287 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 00:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391BB084.8A3378A9@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:19:32 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Er... my plans for tonight changed somewhat. I planned to do my Jujitsu as > > normal and then come home and work on the site design. But my plans changed > > when I was asked by two German girls to go have Ice Cream with them. Sorry, > > but I think I made the right choice. I mean... Home vs Ice Cream. Girls vs > > Computer. No, it was a good choice... ;) > > I'm so glad to see you've got your priorities straight. *TWO* German > girls, eh? Reminds me of a 3 way I had when I was 19... ;-) Yep. Two girls with names that I find difficult to pronounce properly. :o And I'm 20, I'm not so far off. ;) > > Mind you, I didn't really think it'd take 2 hours. Oops! Oh well, I don't > > care. I enjoyed it! It was a great mix of English and German (though I'll > > freely admit there was more English being used). And I'm having German > > lessons now too! Woohoo! > > Oh... rats. And here I was getting all excited for nothing. ;-( So you > didn't get any? Ice cream or German lessons? ;)) I think you know the answer to that. Let's put it this way - I wouldn't have e-mailed you last night. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 00:37:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04312 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 00:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <391BB084.8A3378A9@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367670f7af553_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <391BB084.8A3378A9@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:41:09 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Yep. Two girls with names that I find difficult to pronounce properly. :o So what were the names? >And I'm 20, I'm not so far off. ;) Shit, I begin to feel old... >>So you didn't get any? >Ice cream or German lessons? ;)) I guess he meant more physical lessons... BTW, did you mean that they give you German lessons or that you have some German course? >I think you know the answer to that. Let's put it this way - I wouldn't >have e-mailed you last night. ;) So you only got ice cream... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Andrea: Unhappy the land that has no heroes. Galileo: No, unhappy the land that _____needs heroes. -- Bertolt Brecht, "Life of Galileo" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:06:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04352 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:06:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005120811.KAA08198@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 11, 2000 08:56:37 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:11:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Today I'm really braindead, sorry. So don't expect I would show brilliant. > But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. You cannot point to large > corporations and say "See how bad Capitalism is?". That's like saying that > every Mormon in the world is an acohol distributing two faced liar when > clearly that isn't the case. What you're not seeing is many competitive > companies coexisting nicely. It happens daily, and I see evidence of it > everywhere. Of course, that doesn't make news, now, does it? I don't > expect you to hear about it or even take it in to account. > Then what I'm saying is that an important portion of capitalism is bad. Both comunism and capitalism are economical theories. Both have good points and bad points. It's the implementation of them what are bad. Humans are neither heavy individualist (as it is pointed by capitalism) nor an expendable cell in a large comunity. We aren't lonely tigers nor working ants. Humans live in middle sized groups and have some individualist feelings. So I think neither pure capitalism nor comunism are the best choice. And why I ever say capitalism is bad. Because I'm being teached that a lot bad things as greedy, corporations and so on is capitalism, so when I talk about capitalism I talk about that, not about the theory or the good application of capitalism. Same happens to the people who has been teached that communism is evil and means dictature and use it as it means dictature and repression, not a economic theory. Communism also works in the small things. > As an example, it's really common in the pinball business to refer people > to their competitors when they are overloaded or don't have parts. > I think many business in Spain should know about that, because they don't do it ;) I'm not saying everyone is bad, but the average usually is bad. Is it a problem about capitalism? Perhaps not, but there is still a problem. > > Large corporations don't affect your life? It's hard to believe. > > I said my *DAILY* life. Case in point - Disney. I don't buy their products > and won't buy their products because they are an evil, money grubbing, > thieving, controlling company and all they are about is money. I find that > reprehensible. > I hate Disney and their fucking movies, I haven't seen a Disney movie since ages. ;) Manga power! ;) > > corporation have the control of the most mass production factories, the most > > advanced technologies and the most resources. And they also have a lot > > of power in governments. > > Not anywhere near as much as you think. MS Is a perfect example of > this. The government has lambasted IBM, AT&T, and Microsoft and believe > me, they had *MASSIVE* influence in governmental positions. Didn't work, > did it? > I don't see governments pursuing US companies (or Spanish companies) who have SLAVE factories at low developed countries. MS has been punished because it has too much power and other large companies are afraid about it. It has been pursuit because many of the large corporations and lobbies are against it. > But that still doesn't make captialism bad as a whole, Victor. Lots of > what you're seeing (AMD vs. Intel) is simple jealousy, so they sue > eachother right and left to try to get money out of the other guy. > I can agree with capitalism isn't esentially bad. I can't agree that the actual application of capitalism isn't bad. > It's a side effect of capitalism. Not the cause of it. > A very extended side effect of capitalism. > I've profiled the life of several CEOs - one being Andy Grove, now > chairmain of Intel. On a day to day basis, his stress level is extremely > high. If he makes one wrong decision, millions are out to lynch him (that > whole Pentium floating point issue that got horribly blown out of > proportion). Every thing he does he has to do with very careful and > calculated planning, otherwise he could make a lot of investors and > clients extremely angry and possibly be sued out of existence by them. He > also could tank an entire economy with a wrong decision. With that amount > of stress, I'm sorry, but he earns it. > If it's so hard why are they working in such a job? They have enough money to live without working. Love of power? And for each CEO can be considered a good man/woman there are ten or a hundred that are really bad. I'm not saying that it isn't a hard work, they have a lot of responsability and a lot of stress, but anyone who wants to do a good job can have such feelings. The problem is that many CEOs use that as an excuse every time you talk agaisnt them. And I can't say a man who is fanaticed by his work is a good person or a system which enables such kind of power or responsability in a single person is good. I think if I was in the chance I won't follow this kind of game of get more and more involved with power and thinking I'm the only one who could do things. Sorry, I'm not saying that they are all bad. But such kind of living isn't good, not for them not for the rest of the people. > But they don't *HAVE* to be mechanics, miners, or ditchdiggers. Anyone can > do anything, and if you're not making it, you're not trying hard enough. I > was *DIRT* poor for many years after high school. I said "This sucks!". I > worked hard and found a way to improve myself. > SOMEONE must be mechanics, miners, ditchdiggers or farmers. A CEO can't live without them. Not everyone can or could become a CEO. And I hope not every wants it. The american phisolophy about everyone can become US president (and it's a really bad example) is a fake, it's worst it's a bad joke. It isn't only a matter about how hard you work, there are many who don't want to work but there is also many that work and can't improve their lives. People has to learn that the work, all kind work, is needed. If I can't become a programmer or an engineer because I'm not enough good or there are too many programmer, well, it's a bad new, but if there are other kind of job which I can help society I will do it although it will be the worst job ever thought. And perhaps I will be still happy. > Now enter these greedy fucks who think "Well, *I* shouldn't have to pay a > higher tax rate than everyone else! Those poor people should pay the same > rate!" This is what you would call a Republican. They're in it to protect > their own selfish agendas. > They don't think that perhaps if they didn't pay higher tax rates than poor people, poor people could throught them away as has happenned in many social revolutions. > Even if I had 10 million dollars in the bank, I wouldn't live much > differently than I do now. Maybe I'd move to a similar house in a > different location, but I cannot fathom buying an $800,000 Bentley, > spending $4 million for a house on the hill or any other extravagant > spending. There's no point in that. > I agree with you I have had similiar thoughts many times. I still live with my parents until last few months I didn't have money or work (because I was studying, it isn't a problem about unemploiment) but I still lived well. I can't buy the books I wanted but I could read them from librarys. And I think about the future and I say myself what do you want: a house not too large (it would be difficult to clean it either), a good book collection and a computer. I didn't need million dollars to live happy. But there are a lot of people who don't think this way. > In fact, if I had 10 million dollars, I'd probably start a really > "cool" company that focuses on dropping the bottom out of a few markets - > taking those things that are overpriced and making them equally affordable > to almost everyone. > Umm, it's a really good idea. Perhaps if someday I earn so much money ;) > I'd much rather have a company that sells things for cheap, sustains > itself, and makes a lot of people happy than to try to squeeze every last > dollar out of everyone. > How many people has enough money to that such kinds of companies? How many people has done it? Think about that. > Ever heard the expression "Money talks"? If you have the financial means > of unplugging someone else, that someone else listens to you and will do > what you say. Conversely, those who live by the sword die by the sword. > Unluckily. But it takes too much time to die ;) > Of course, as you realize, this has nothing to do with capitalism. This > has to do with human nature. > I can agree. Then we have to try to change human nature. > To affect things globally, act locally. I hate the phrase since it's > associated with wacko environmentalists. Good ideas tend to breed > quickly. And I flatly disagree that a single person can't do anything. > A single person can do something but I means that it's hard to a single people to change a whole society. If there were enough single person doing something thing would change. > You keep speaking of "real" capitalism, and the bad aspects of it are just > a small part of the good. > The call it bad capitalism. I don't like bad capitalism as I don't like bad communism. ;) > > greedy kind of capitalism. The problem isn't the theory but the > > implementation. > > Not even the implementation, but the execution of a small part of it. > I think is more than a small part, unluckyly. And if it's a small part it's an important and dangerous part. > > I think that us having faster CPUs is doing the world a lot of good. Maybe > not now, but it's advancing us toward moving to space and colonizing other > planets. IT's an enabling too, and I for one am glad that companies are > duking it out. Progress is happening quickly! > If you are talking about 1GHz you will see it's still a fake they still cost too much to be useful and neither AMD nor Intel can't produce enough of them. The 1GHz race was a fucking marketing race. It hasn't helped anyone the 1GHz CPU will have a good price at the same time they would have been realesed (or very near) in the normal competence with AMD. Actual CPUs used for common PCs are 600 to 800 Mhz. > And I'm saying your view of capitalism is only a small part of the whole > pie. It happens to be the loudest and most negative, but it's still a > small part of a system that works extremely well. > It works well for the people living in povertry in India perhaps? Or for many people living in poor conditions in the large US cities? Perhaps you are also seing a small part of capitalism. > To the extent of the US? > Europe countries aren't still so capitalist (liberalism?) as US. The government has more power and helps more to redistribute resources. The public education and mainly health system are more powerful than US, I think. > > There are governmental checks and balances in the US that aren't affected > by corporate influence. AT&T Got busted up. So did IBM, Standard Oil and > so is MS. Just because you're a big corporation doesn't make you bad. But > when you do something illegal, the government will come down on you hard. > Justice/law works? Not usuallly. > One thing going for the world is the increased level of > communication. Radical outbursts tend to get squelched as soon as they > start because word travels fast. In the late 60's, very little did. We > have forums today that are instant that we didn't have back then. So the > opportunity for these types of things to go unnoticed until they're too > big to deal with just doesn't exist any longer. > Communication? Or perhaps media controlled communication? :p > They're the most embarassing aspect of the US. I always have said the > farther southeast you go in this country the lower your IQ dips. > The problem we have in Spain is nacionalism. There are too few but too noisy people who hate everyone out of their regions or thinking differently. I hate the guys from ETA and they guys who help them. > > Absolutely. But what happens is those who work hard and look for ways to > improve themselves financially eventually find a way to make it > happen. Those who don't, don't. > Not everyone who works improves themselves financially. > > > Yes, and that's the greed I've been talking about that prevlaent in just > > > about everyone. As you understand first hand, it's present even without > > > capitalism. > > The humanity needs to change they way the see the live. A new kind of > > culture must arise that helps greedy to be limited. > > Yes. But that won't happen for hundreds of years. I predict it's the > invention of the replicator that will be the catalyst for a new era. That, > or discovering that we're not alone in the universe. > And I predict that we perhaps we don't have the chance or time ot invent the replicator. And about ETs I don't think that changes anything unless they are a kind of UN forces who want to control primitive planets. The problem isn't really that there aren't enough resources, it's a part of the problem, but the other part is the actual human culture. Victor Moya P.S. How can we be so off-topic? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:15:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04368 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391BBD5F.760FBE4E@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:14:23 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! References: <391BB084.8A3378A9@eurocopter.de> <000367670f7af553_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >Yep. Two girls with names that I find difficult to pronounce properly. :o > > So what were the names? I can't pronounce them so I'm certain that I can't spell them. But here goes (I'll write them as they sound): Dorothea Ootah I'm certain those aren't right, but I don't know how else to spell it... :-/ > >And I'm 20, I'm not so far off. ;) > > Shit, I begin to feel old... Ah, it's okay. You're probably not the oldest on the group. Though I'm quite possibly the youngest... > >Ice cream or German lessons? ;)) > > I guess he meant more physical lessons... Really? ;) > BTW, did you mean that they give you German lessons or that you have some > German course? No, I have a German course now. I've had 4 lessons so far this week. It's quite intensive. We'll see how good I get, but it's mainly just grammar. You Germans have really strange grammar! ;) Mind you, they did offer to teach me German too. That could be cool. > >I think you know the answer to that. Let's put it this way - I wouldn't > >have e-mailed you last night. ;) > > So you only got ice cream... It was nice! ;o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:21:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04382 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:21:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005120826.KAA11791@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <391BBD5F.760FBE4E@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 12, 2000 10:14:23 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:26:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > >And I'm 20, I'm not so far off. ;) > > > > Shit, I begin to feel old... > > Ah, it's okay. You're probably not the oldest on the group. Though I'm > quite possibly the youngest... > Sure. I thought we have near the same age but I'm older, I'm 23. I'm beginning to feel old :( Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:30:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04399 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 01:35:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <200005120826.KAA11791@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > >And I'm 20, I'm not so far off. ;) > > > Shit, I begin to feel old... > > Ah, it's okay. You're probably not the oldest on the group. Though I'm > > quite possibly the youngest... > Sure. I thought we have near the same age but I'm older, I'm 23. I'm > beginning to feel old :( Anyone want to guess my age? ;-) I just had a birthday last Saturday. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:41:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04418 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <391BBD5F.760FBE4E@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036767f4920d1e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <391BB084.8A3378A9@eurocopter.de> <000367670f7af553_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <391BBD5F.760FBE4E@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:45:12 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I can't pronounce them so I'm certain that I can't spell them. But here >goes (I'll write them as they sound): >Dorothea The spelling seems to be correct, but I mind you that the "h" is not spoken. >Ootah Spelling should be "Uta" (pronounced /u:ta:/, just as you wrote - long "u" and long "a"). >I'm certain those aren't right, but I don't know how else to spell it... >:-/ I have to admit that these aren't very easy names. >Ah, it's okay. You're probably not the oldest on the group. Well, at least NB should be older than me... >Though I'm quite possibly the youngest... Of the hardcore members, I guess so, but I don't know about the lurkers... >No, I have a German course now. I thought you don't need that ;-) >I've had 4 lessons so far this week. It's >quite intensive. We'll see how good I get, but it's mainly just grammar. Uh, I hate Grammar! >You Germans have really strange grammar! ;) Tell me about it! I'm glad that I can use most things intuitively, but as soon as I have to explain why it is that way, it gets very complicated! But some aspects of the English Grammar aren't any better. Just take the CGEL (Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language), when the reader isn't killed by the contents you can still knock him out with the pure weight of the book! >Mind you, they did offer to teach me German too. That could be cool. You certainly could learn some things you'll never learn in that course ;-) >It was nice! ;o The ice cream or the companions? If it's really hot (I mean the weather) there is nothing as refreshing as the lemon ice cream they make in Italy. I still have to find a similar ice cream in Germany... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:44:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04430 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <007f01bfbbee$3ca7be60$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:39:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > > >And I'm 20, I'm not so far off. ;) > > > > Shit, I begin to feel old... > > > Ah, it's okay. You're probably not the oldest on the group. Though I'm > > > quite possibly the youngest... > > Sure. I thought we have near the same age but I'm older, I'm 23. I'm > > beginning to feel old :( > > Anyone want to guess my age? ;-) I just had a birthday last Saturday. > > -->Neil Given that you consistently post messages up to 10am GMT, which must be hideously early in the morning your time, I'd say about 18. ;) Don't you ever sleep? Based on your picture on the Retrocade web page, though, 27ish? Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:45:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04443 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:45:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391BC49C.F30D074A@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:45:16 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Anyone want to guess my age? ;-) I just had a birthday last Saturday. Really? Oh, well I wish you a belated "Happy Birthday!" then. And I'll guess that you're 35. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:46:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04453 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003676804277731_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:49:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Anyone want to guess my age? ;-) I just had a birthday last Saturday. Really? I had mine last Sunday! ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "Love is an ideal thing, marriage a real thing; a confusion of the real with the ideal never goes unpunished." -- Goethe --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:46:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04461 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200005120826.KAA11791@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <000367680705c902_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005120826.KAA11791@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:50:22 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Sure. I thought we have near the same age but I'm older, I'm 23. I'm >beginning to feel old :( Then we there have a three years span: I'm 26. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Accident, n.: A condition in which presence of mind is good, but absence of body is better. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 01:49:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04471 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 01:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <391BC49C.F30D074A@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036768130663ae_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <391BC49C.F30D074A@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:53:43 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >And I'll guess that you're 35. :) Oh no, since NG is 20, Victor is 23, and I am 26, NB has to be 29, at least to Murphy's Law ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Skinner's Constant (or Flannagan's Finagling Factor): That quantity which, when multiplied by, divided by, added to, or subtracted from the answer you get, gives you the answer you should have gotten. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 02:01:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04651 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 02:01:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391BC867.7D06F8D3@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:01:27 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! References: <0003676804277731_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Really? I had mine last Sunday! ;-) Really? Well, a happy belated birthday to you as well! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 02:07:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04663 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 02:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391BC954.C97DA446@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:05:24 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! References: <391BC49C.F30D074A@eurocopter.de> <00036768130663ae_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >And I'll guess that you're 35. :) > > Oh no, since NG is 20, Victor is 23, and I am 26, NB has to be 29, at least > to Murphy's Law ;-) If Murphy's law is involved that that would mean that NB could not possibly be 29. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 02:12:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04678 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 02:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <391BC867.7D06F8D3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <0003676860a6f40c_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <0003676804277731_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <391BC867.7D06F8D3@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:15:25 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Really? Well, a happy belated birthday to you as well! Thanks. The good thing is that I got BeOS 5 Pro ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Absentee, n.: A person with an income who has had the forethought to remove himself from the sphere of exaction. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 02:12:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04686 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 02:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <391BC954.C97DA446@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367686392a422_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <391BC49C.F30D074A@eurocopter.de> <00036768130663ae_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <391BC954.C97DA446@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:16:14 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >If Murphy's law is involved that that would mean that NB could not possibly >be 29. :) Erm, agreed. Then it's according to the Law of Strange Regularities ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed. -- Sean O'Casey --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 02:25:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04707 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 02:25:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 02:30:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005120811.KAA08198@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Both comunism and capitalism are economical theories. Both have good points > and bad points. It's the implementation of them what are bad. I think you mean the execution. You can have a great implementation, but if it's poorly executed, the problem is the execution and not the implementation. > Humans are neither heavy individualist (as it is pointed by > capitalism) nor an expendable cell in a large comunity. We aren't > lonely tigers nor working ants. Humans live in middle sized groups > and have some individualist feelings. So I think neither pure > capitalism nor comunism are the best choice. I think we agree here. There are some things that I wish were centrally controlled but aren't. > And why I ever say > capitalism is bad. Because I'm being teached that a lot bad things as > greedy, corporations and so on is capitalism, so when I talk about > capitalism I talk about that, not about the theory or the good > application of capitalism. Your teachers are wrong, just as I was taught in school that communism was bad. I was taught that communism was an evil form of government. Nothing more than political propoganda and us vs. them. After being educated a bit more by self study, I realize that communism in and of itself isn't bad, and that my teachers were full of shit. You're a smart guy, and I hope you realize the same thing. > > As an example, it's really common in the pinball business to refer people > > to their competitors when they are overloaded or don't have parts. > I think many business in Spain should know about that, because they > don't do it ;) I'm not saying everyone is bad, but the average > usually is bad. Is it a problem about capitalism? Perhaps not, but > there is still a problem. It might be a problem with Spain, but smaller and mid level companies generally get along quite well. IT might be prevalent in Spain, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as you make it sound in the US. > I hate Disney and their fucking movies, I haven't seen a Disney movie since > ages. ;) Manga power! ;) The funny thing is that it *WAS* a good company until Michael Isner took over. They made a little money, but it was the will of Disney to make family quality movies. Since 1992, they've been recycling the same shit over and over again. I was told by a friend who did artwork for Disney that during her signup they point blank told her "This is a business, not an art school. You work here to make money, not to be an artist." That's a sneaky, evil company, and there's evidence all over it. I won't buy a new product of theirs - ever. > > Not anywhere near as much as you think. MS Is a perfect example of > > this. The government has lambasted IBM, AT&T, and Microsoft and believe > > me, they had *MASSIVE* influence in governmental positions. Didn't work, > > did it? > I don't see governments pursuing US companies (or Spanish companies) > who have SLAVE factories at low developed countries. It depends upon what you call "slave" factories. Slavery implies they are forced to work there - they are not. If it's in a foreign country, the US government has no jurisdiction except for importation duties. I've seen people go ape about Nike having shops in Taiwan where people are making $3.25 a day. In Taiwan, for those people, $3.25 is decent money. How can we hold every other country in the world to *OUR* value system? They're getting a better deal for their money outside the US. > MS has been > punished because it has too much power and other large companies are > afraid about it. It has been pursuit because many of the large > corporations and lobbies are against it. Microsoft has been punished because of their unfair business practices when it comes to their products, not because they have "too much power". > > But that still doesn't make captialism bad as a whole, Victor. Lots of > > what you're seeing (AMD vs. Intel) is simple jealousy, so they sue > > eachother right and left to try to get money out of the other guy. > I can agree with capitalism isn't esentially bad. I can't agree that > the actual application of capitalism isn't bad. Or some aspects of it, anyway. > > It's a side effect of capitalism. Not the cause of it. > A very extended side effect of capitalism. No, just a vocal one. Of course the only thing you ever hear about is the bad part, because that's newsworthy. Good capitalism isn't newsworthy, so it would stand to reason that you wouldn't hear about it. > > I've profiled the life of several CEOs - one being Andy Grove, now > > chairmain of Intel. On a day to day basis, his stress level is extremely > > high. If he makes one wrong decision, millions are out to lynch him (that > If it's so hard why are they working in such a job? Various reasons, actually: * They now have 75,000 employees world wide whose well beings they are protecting and ensuring. * They really believe they're making a big difference in the industry they're in. * They thrive on stress. * They want recognition. * More money! I get the impression that Andy Grove is #1, #2, maybe a bit of #3, some of #4, but I don't think #5. > They have enough > money to live without working. Love of power? Not to defend Bill Gates (he has enough fucking money, don't you think?) Bill Gates decides to call it quits and say "See ya!" Microsoft stock plummets, people lose faith in the company and stop buying their products and it puts 9,000 Microsoft employees out of work. Then the industry as a whole, of Windows programmers starts to erode. The need for computers starts to erode, and people stop buying hardware. Stock market starts plummeting as people pull their money out, which causes people to quit investing in the stock market. Don't laugh. This exact thing can happen very easily. Once you're in a position like that, attempting a transition out of it isn't as easy as you might think. I really don't think Andy Grove or Bill Gates knew what they were getting into. They might've thought they'd make a few bucks, but I'll bet you their salary that they were caught by surprise. > And for each CEO can be > considered a good man/woman there are ten or a hundred that are really bad. No, there's a few really bad ones, a few really good ones, and a lot of mediocre ones. Your view isn't correct. > you talk agaisnt them. And I can't say a man who is fanaticed by his > work is a good person or a system which enables such kind of power or > responsability in a single person is good. I think if I was in the > chance I won't follow this kind of game of get more and more involved > with power and thinking I'm the only one who could do things. Sorry, I think if you were in this situation you'd have a far more unique perspective. I have a couple of friends who are CEOs of local fairly decent sized companies. Being a CEO is extremely hard work. The best thing for you to do if you want to bow out without affecting an industry or local economy is to go to work for a company that gives good benefits, work your ass off, and get rewarded for it, and retire. I hope to at 35. ;-) Intel stock just has to reach 200 points (or 100 after an upcoming stock split). > > But they don't *HAVE* to be mechanics, miners, or ditchdiggers. Anyone can > > do anything, and if you're not making it, you're not trying hard enough. I > SOMEONE must be mechanics, miners, ditchdiggers or farmers. Yes, those who aren't willing to work hard enough to get them out of those jobs, yes. > without them. Not everyone can or could become a CEO. And I hope not No, but everyone has the inherent ability to better themselves... or not. > every wants it. The american phisolophy about everyone can become US > president (and it's a really bad example) is a fake, it's worst it's a > bad joke. I've not heard that Philosophy. Perhaps it's a translation problem of sorts. *OF COURSE* Not everyone can be president, but the whole point of a statement like that is there are no preset rules to prevent anyone from doing anything. > > Even if I had 10 million dollars in the bank, I wouldn't live much > > differently than I do now. Maybe I'd move to a similar house in a > > different location, but I cannot fathom buying an $800,000 Bentley, > > spending $4 million for a house on the hill or any other extravagant > > spending. There's no point in that. P> with my parents until last few months I didn't have money or work (because > I was studying, it isn't a problem about unemploiment) but I still lived > well. I can't buy the books I wanted but I could read them from librarys. You see? You found a solution where others would say "Oh, I can't afford those books. I just can't learn about X then." Lots of people think opportunities don't exist to do things, when they actually do. So people don't work hard and just give up, and become our ditch diggers. ;-) > And I think about the future and I say myself what do you want: a house > not too large (it would be difficult to clean it either), a good book > collection and a computer. I didn't need million dollars to live happy. Me either. I actually had some of the happiest times of my life when I was in my late teens. I was getting laid a lot, met a lot of really cool people, and was dirt poor. But it was fun! > But there are a lot of people who don't think this way. Sadly so. > > In fact, if I had 10 million dollars, I'd probably start a really > > "cool" company that focuses on dropping the bottom out of a few markets - > Umm, it's a really good idea. Perhaps if someday I earn so much money ;) Just work at it, man! Just keep your original goals and ideals in mind. > > I'd much rather have a company that sells things for cheap, sustains > > itself, and makes a lot of people happy than to try to squeeze every last > > dollar out of everyone. > How many people has enough money to that such kinds of companies? How > many people has done it? Think about that. (I raise my hand) Quite a few, actually. You'll find *LOTS* of small businesses around (and on the web) that just like making cool, affordable stuff. > > Of course, as you realize, this has nothing to do with capitalism. This > > has to do with human nature. > I can agree. Then we have to try to change human nature. You're in for a big job. ;-) I was told a few pieces of information from a book called "Built to last" - a book about how businesses are able to last - like 50 years or longer. A few things came out of it: * Always pay your taxes and bills upon receipt of invoice * Give the benefit of the doubt to every customer and company you do business with * Price products reasonably so that people feel they get a good value for their money (but not too low, because people think it isn't worth a crap and won't buy it!) * View competition as a way to rethink or improve your products, not as a threat to your livelihood * Market honestly, and never put down nor compare yourselves to a competitor to purposely make them look bad * If a customer's needs aren't met by your product, give them a refund, and even recommend a competitor's product * Avoid litigation at all costs - attempt to work out licensing or patent issues with the company in violation * Be generous to each community your company is located in * Set aside resources to donate resources and time to helping each local community That's how I run my business, and honestly, I'd rather go *OUT* of business than compromise my integrity. The one thing I can do when I go home at night is live with myself. ;-) > A single person can do something but I means that it's hard to a single > people to change a whole society. If there were enough single person > doing something thing would change. Nope, but if you're an influential person, you can "infect" others with similar styles of thinking. It takes time. You can't just one day suddenly command millions. ;-) > > I think that us having faster CPUs is doing the world a lot of good. Maybe > > not now, but it's advancing us toward moving to space and colonizing other > > planets. IT's an enabling too, and I for one am glad that companies are > > duking it out. Progress is happening quickly! > If you are talking about 1GHz you will see it's still a fake they still > cost too much to be useful and neither AMD nor Intel can't produce enough > of them. They're being sold and they do exist, so they aren't fakes. And yes, the 1GHZ "race" was just that a fake race. A good side effect of it is that we as a people are advancing technologically at a much higher rate because of this competition, regardless of the initial reason. > > And I'm saying your view of capitalism is only a small part of the whole > > pie. It happens to be the loudest and most negative, but it's still a > > small part of a system that works extremely well. > It works well for the people living in povertry in India perhaps? Or for > many people living in poor conditions in the large US cities? Perhaps you > are also seing a small part of capitalism. I'm not familiar with India's economic situation enough to comment, but the US economy is better than it has ever been. The US has an amazingly low unemployment rate - lowest in the world if I'm not mistaken. There are far more jobs available in the US than we can fill, so we're "importing". I'd say it works quite well for the US. > > To the extent of the US? > Europe countries aren't still so capitalist (liberalism?) as US. The > government has more power and helps more to redistribute resources. The > public education and mainly health system are more powerful than US, I > think. Don't get me started on the medical "business" in the US. HMOs. It just infuriates me - it's all starting to boil down to lawyers and money, and it makes me want to kill! ;-) > > by corporate influence. AT&T Got busted up. So did IBM, Standard Oil and > > so is MS. Just because you're a big corporation doesn't make you bad. But > > when you do something illegal, the government will come down on you hard. > Justice/law works? Not usuallly. With real problems it does. It takes a while, but it does work. > > start because word travels fast. In the late 60's, very little did. We > > have forums today that are instant that we didn't have back then. So the > > opportunity for these types of things to go unnoticed until they're too > > big to deal with just doesn't exist any longer. > Communication? Or perhaps media controlled communication? :p The internet isn't media controlled communication, which is what I was getting at. ;-) > > Absolutely. But what happens is those who work hard and look for ways to > > improve themselves financially eventually find a way to make it > > happen. Those who don't, don't. > Not everyone who works improves themselves financially. Then they aren't seeking better lives. If you work hard, don't take no for an answer, and open the door when opportunity knocks, there's nothing inherent about the US that'll prevent you from bettering yourself. > > Yes. But that won't happen for hundreds of years. I predict it's the > > invention of the replicator that will be the catalyst for a new era. That, > > or discovering that we're not alone in the universe. > And I predict that we perhaps we don't have the chance or time ot > invent the replicator. I don't believe that. > And about ETs I don't think that changes > anything unless they are a kind of UN forces who want to control > primitive planets. EH? What about ETs who have already evolved to a communist way of thinking and who introduce devices that end hunger, disease, and poverty? > The problem isn't really that there aren't enough > resources, it's a part of the problem, but the other part is the > actual human culture. One can argue that people's desire for more money is so they can buy more stuff and have more freedom. If you have a replicator, your every material desire is met, negating the need for money. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 02:27:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04719 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 02:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 02:32:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <391BC954.C97DA446@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > >And I'll guess that you're 35. :) > > Oh no, since NG is 20, Victor is 23, and I am 26, NB has to be 29, at least > > to Murphy's Law ;-) > If Murphy's law is involved that that would mean that NB could not possibly > be 29. :) I just turned 31, and I'm proud to say that I can still hold an erection and remember lots of stuff. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 02:38:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04742 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 02:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <010501bfbbf5$cfc46700$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:38:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > >And I'll guess that you're 35. :) > > > Oh no, since NG is 20, Victor is 23, and I am 26, NB has to be 29, at least > > > to Murphy's Law ;-) > > If Murphy's law is involved that that would mean that NB could not possibly > > be 29. :) > > I just turned 31, and I'm proud to say that I can still hold an erection > and remember lots of stuff. ;-) > > -->Neil *cough* Whose erection, exactly, are you holding? ;p Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 02:59:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04775 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 02:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391BD3AF.426A2DD3@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:49:35 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I just turned 31, and I'm proud to say that I can still hold an erection Your own I hope. ;) I've heard that women of 31 can also hold erections (think about it). :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 12 03:28:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA04824 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 12 May 2000 03:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005121032.MAA04657@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 12, 2000 02:30:25 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:32:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Your teachers are wrong, just as I was taught in school that communism was > bad. I was taught that communism was an evil form of government. Nothing > more than political propoganda and us vs. them. After being educated a bit > more by self study, I realize that communism in and of itself isn't bad, > and that my teachers were full of shit. > It's more a question of my family than my teachers ;) But as world doens't work as I would want I have to argue against something and capitalism is a good objective. ;) > You're a smart guy, and I hope you realize the same thing. > I try to get all points of view but it doesn't mean I will change without arguments my thoughts. > It depends upon what you call "slave" factories. Slavery implies they are > forced to work there - they are not. If it's in a foreign country, the US > government has no jurisdiction except for importation duties. I've seen > people go ape about Nike having shops in Taiwan where people are making > $3.25 a day. In Taiwan, for those people, $3.25 is decent money. How can > we hold every other country in the world to *OUR* value system? They're > getting a better deal for their money outside the US. > It's decent money because they live in a very poor country and it isn't so decent. > > > I've profiled the life of several CEOs - one being Andy Grove, now > > > chairmain of Intel. On a day to day basis, his stress level is extremely > > > high. If he makes one wrong decision, millions are out to lynch him (that > > > If it's so hard why are they working in such a job? > > Various reasons, actually: > > * They now have 75,000 employees world wide whose well beings they are > protecting and ensuring. > > * They really believe they're making a big difference in the industry > they're in. > > * They thrive on stress. > > * They want recognition. > > * More money! > > I get the impression that Andy Grove is #1, #2, maybe a bit of #3, some of > #4, but I don't think #5. > Those are good reasons, but are real reasons? So I don't know anyone in such a situation I can't say nothing. > Not to defend Bill Gates (he has enough fucking money, don't you think?) > Bill Gates decides to call it quits and say "See ya!" Microsoft stock > plummets, people lose faith in the company and stop buying their products > and it puts 9,000 Microsoft employees out of work. Then the industry as a > whole, of Windows programmers starts to erode. The need for computers > starts to erode, and people stop buying hardware. Stock market starts > plummeting as people pull their money out, which causes people to quit > investing in the stock market. > What you are saying is that people is silly (and perhaps they are). I can't see the difference between Bill Gates and other qualified CEO. This as the cars issue, Spanish cities are plenty of cars, there are too many cars, but as cars are a important part of the economy noone wants to apply measures on it. As easy to use more cycles or public tranport, but they are afraid that the full economy will fall if less cars are sold. If this happens then all the economic systems is a fake and it's wrong. And it should be changed. They just say we can't, we cant, it's impossible, and of course if they feel it's impossible it become impossible. > Don't laugh. This exact thing can happen very easily. Once you're in a > position like that, attempting a transition out of it isn't as easy as you > might think. > Power corruption. ;) > I really don't think Andy Grove or Bill Gates knew what they were getting > into. They might've thought they'd make a few bucks, but I'll bet you > their salary that they were caught by surprise. > Of course, and the guys from Apple too. > > > But they don't *HAVE* to be mechanics, miners, or ditchdiggers. Anyone can > > > do anything, and if you're not making it, you're not trying hard enough. I > > SOMEONE must be mechanics, miners, ditchdiggers or farmers. > > Yes, those who aren't willing to work hard enough to get them out of those > jobs, yes. > You are wrong here. I can't agree with that. > > without them. Not everyone can or could become a CEO. And I hope not > > No, but everyone has the inherent ability to better themselves... or not. > But the society prevents many times that. > I've not heard that Philosophy. Perhaps it's a translation problem of > sorts. *OF COURSE* Not everyone can be president, but the whole point of a > statement like that is there are no preset rules to prevent anyone from > doing anything. > There aren't preset rules but there are a whole system working against. And as much you talk about it, it's impossible that everybody get a CEO emploiment, it doesn't matter how hard they work. > > > > In fact, if I had 10 million dollars, I'd probably start a really > > > "cool" company that focuses on dropping the bottom out of a few markets - > > Umm, it's a really good idea. Perhaps if someday I earn so much money ;) > > Just work at it, man! Just keep your original goals and ideals in mind. > We will see. ;) > > (I raise my hand) Quite a few, actually. You'll find *LOTS* of small > businesses around (and on the web) that just like making cool, affordable > stuff. > But there aren't other that doesn't work and are forgotten. > > > Of course, as you realize, this has nothing to do with capitalism. This > > > has to do with human nature. > > I can agree. Then we have to try to change human nature. > > You're in for a big job. ;-) I'm probably in the biggest job but the creation of world. ;) > I was told a few pieces of information from a > book called "Built to last" - a book about how businesses are able to last > - like 50 years or longer. A few things came out of it: > > * Always pay your taxes and bills upon receipt of invoice > * Give the benefit of the doubt to every customer and company you do > business with > * Price products reasonably so that people feel they get a good value for > their money (but not too low, because people think it isn't worth a crap > and won't buy it!) > * View competition as a way to rethink or improve your products, not as > a threat to your livelihood > * Market honestly, and never put down nor compare yourselves to a > competitor to purposely make them look bad > * If a customer's needs aren't met by your product, give them a refund, > and even recommend a competitor's product > * Avoid litigation at all costs - attempt to work out licensing or > patent issues with the company in violation > * Be generous to each community your company is located in > * Set aside resources to donate resources and time to helping each local > community > > That's how I run my business, and honestly, I'd rather go *OUT* of > business than compromise my integrity. The one thing I can do when I go > home at night is live with myself. ;-) > They are very good rules, but I feel that only a small set of the people actually follows them. I only can agree with those principles, but they aren't usually applied. If they were applied world would be a lot of different than it is. > > A single person can do something but I means that it's hard to a single > > people to change a whole society. If there were enough single person > > doing something thing would change. > > Nope, but if you're an influential person, you can "infect" others with > similar styles of thinking. It takes time. You can't just one day suddenly > command millions. ;-) > A kind of messiah? It's a very dangerous thing. For any good of those influential person there are many more than than are really bad or evil. Think about how many Hitlers there were and how many Gandhis, Jesuses or Budas there were. > > I'm not familiar with India's economic situation enough to comment, but > the US economy is better than it has ever been. The US has an amazingly > low unemployment rate - lowest in the world if I'm not mistaken. There are > far more jobs available in the US than we can fill, so we're "importing". > US economy (and also europe economy) is arised over the resources of all over the world. Without exploitment of low developed countries a lot of things would be different. And many usual products will be very more expensive. > I'd say it works quite well for the US. > The Greek or Roman slave economic system also worked very well ..., for the owner of course, but no for the slaves. > > Justice/law works? Not usuallly. > > With real problems it does. It takes a while, but it does work. > I have seen in my countrie and other countries a lot of cases that Justice didn't work or didn't work properly. Bad example: Capone was jailed because of taxes not because it was a mafious. > > The internet isn't media controlled communication, which is what I was > getting at. ;-) > Still. It isn't STILL controlled. Governments wants a lot of more control and media companies want to get into too. But the average people don't uses internet for talking with other people about the future of the world, but they use those ugly chats saying nosenses all the time. > > Then they aren't seeking better lives. If you work hard, don't take no for > an answer, and open the door when opportunity knocks, there's nothing > inherent about the US that'll prevent you from bettering yourself. > So bad luck doesn't exist? I can follow your view of live. There are a lot of things that can prevent someone from getting a better live. For example a meteor could kill you. ;) > > > And I predict that we perhaps we don't have the chance or time ot > > invent the replicator. > > I don't believe that. > But I'm still afraid, perhaps I'm too pesimist. > > And about ETs I don't think that changes > > anything unless they are a kind of UN forces who want to control > > primitive planets. > > EH? What about ETs who have already evolved to a communist way of thinking > and who introduce devices that end hunger, disease, and poverty? > With such a technology people sure will begin first a war and will kill all the livings beings on Earth :p The ETs should be very very careful introducing such a devices because human evil can be really evil. The should change first the human nature. > > The problem isn't really that there aren't enough > > resources, it's a part of the problem, but the other part is the > > actual human culture. > > One can argue that people's desire for more money is so they can buy more > stuff and have more freedom. If you have a replicator, your every material > desire is met, negating the need for money. > You can say what you want but a replicator isn't a sollution. It's the same as say: God will come and it will give everyone what they want, evil will be pursuit and everyone will live happy. I'm not saying a replicator isn't possible. But in the kind of universe we live (entropy) and the kind of beings we are (humans) there is a great danger that it never happens. Energy and mass are still limited on that universe. And population and the need for resources can grow very more quickly than the technology for produce goods. Perhaps I'm dreaming when I talk about the human nature changing, but sure such thing as a replicator is also a dream. Think for example, someone invents the replicator, who will be? a mad scientist working alone? not it will be corporation laboratory or a military science facility. And what use they can do to such an invention? Militars will want to destroy enemy countries with the new technology because when a weapon is invented it will be used no matter how evil it could be, no matter how good people they think they are. As we say here "the evil loads the guns". And a corporation will try to conquer the world in the way they have, economically. Perhaps it isn't a true view, but it has some points to take in care. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat May 13 11:00:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08956 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 11:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:05:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <007f01bfbbee$3ca7be60$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Anyone want to guess my age? ;-) I just had a birthday last Saturday. > Given that you consistently post messages up to 10am GMT, which must be > hideously early in the morning your time, I'd say about 18. ;) Don't you > ever sleep? Not enough, no. My schedule is fairly routine, though. I'm up until 2-2:30 PDT and I get up around 9:30PDT and sit around for an hour before I head off to work. I can stay logged in to Synthcom all day long from work because I just telnet in from there, so sometimes I get breaks at work where I'm running some huge test or am having lunch and can answer email. The long ones I usually reserve for late at night, but I was out partying last night so I didn't even check my mail. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat May 13 11:02:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08967 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 11:02:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:07:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <010501bfbbf5$cfc46700$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > be 29. :) > > I just turned 31, and I'm proud to say that I can still hold an erection > > and remember lots of stuff. ;-) > *cough* > Whose erection, exactly, are you holding? ;p Wouldn' *YOU* like to know... big boy! ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat May 13 11:50:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09027 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:55:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005121032.MAA04657@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > * They now have 75,000 employees world wide whose well beings they are > > protecting and ensuring. > > * They really believe they're making a big difference in the industry > > they're in. > > * They thrive on stress. > > * They want recognition. > > * More money! > > I get the impression that Andy Grove is #1, #2, maybe a bit of #3, some of > > #4, but I don't think #5. > Those are good reasons, but are real reasons? So I don't know anyone > in such a situation I can't say nothing. I would imagine that there's varying degrees of this present in everyone who is "in charge". I really doubt that Grove expected to be where he is today. I get the impression from having met Grove many times that he's not in it for the money - he genuinely loves what he does. And *MAN* is he a sharp guy... I bumped in to Gates once at Comdex - literally. His waist almost came up to my shoulders. I thought at the time, "Man, that's a tall dude!" and I didn't even realize who it was. ;-) Granted, this was in 1991... > > whole, of Windows programmers starts to erode. The need for computers > > starts to erode, and people stop buying hardware. Stock market starts > > plummeting as people pull their money out, which causes people to quit > > investing in the stock market. > What you are saying is that people is silly (and perhaps they are). Big time. Paranoid rats, as I call them. One abandons ship, the rest do, too. > they are afraid that the full economy will fall if less cars are sold. If > this happens then all the economic systems is a fake and it's wrong. And > it should be changed. They just say we can't, we cant, it's impossible, and > of course if they feel it's impossible it become impossible. I can't argue that it isn't stupid. If I had a choice between not touching a "working" system and causing recession or harming an economy, I'd have to take the former. > > Don't laugh. This exact thing can happen very easily. Once you're in a > > position like that, attempting a transition out of it isn't as easy as you > > might think. > Power corruption. ;) No, more like you now *OWE* hard work and loyalty to the company because of all of your investors. Sometimes I think it'd be better if companies didn't go public. At least they wouldn't have to answer to the stockholders. > > I really don't think Andy Grove or Bill Gates knew what they were getting > > into. They might've thought they'd make a few bucks, but I'll bet you > > their salary that they were caught by surprise. > Of course, and the guys from Apple too. Oh yes, they're the worst. I have a vile hatred for Jobs. I don't mind Wozniak, but Jobs is just a marketing idiot who thinks he's Jesus incarnate. > > > > do anything, and if you're not making it, you're not trying hard enough. I > > > SOMEONE must be mechanics, miners, ditchdiggers or farmers. > > Yes, those who aren't willing to work hard enough to get them out of those > > jobs, yes. > You are wrong here. I can't agree with that. No, I'm not wrong here. What I'm saying is that everyone has an opportunity to better themselves. What makes that work is that very few of people actually *TRY* to better themselves, so they remain where they are. > > > without them. Not everyone can or could become a CEO. And I hope not > > No, but everyone has the inherent ability to better themselves... or not. > But the society prevents many times that. I can see there are some paths that are much more difficult, such as a woman becoming president, or someone living in the ghetto becoming head of a major corporation (the playing field isn't necessarily even and others may have extra hurdles to go through) but there's nothing stopping any average individual from working their way up in a company. It might be a long haul, but if you stick with it, it has a very good chance of succeeding. > > I've not heard that Philosophy. Perhaps it's a translation problem of > > sorts. *OF COURSE* Not everyone can be president, but the whole point of a > > statement like that is there are no preset rules to prevent anyone from > > doing anything. > There aren't preset rules but there are a whole system working against. > And as much you talk about it, it's impossible that everybody get a CEO > emploiment, it doesn't matter how hard they work. I'm not saying that everyone will get a CEO job. What I'm saying is that everyone has an opportunity to improve themselves and work toward that goal. Since 90% of people out there aren't willing to work extra hard to get where they want to be, it makes it much easier for the 10% who do, and it also makes it work. It might not work that way in Spain, but in the states it does. > > That's how I run my business, and honestly, I'd rather go *OUT* of > > business than compromise my integrity. The one thing I can do when I go > > home at night is live with myself. ;-) > They are very good rules, but I feel that only a small set of the people > actually follows them. I only can agree with those principles, but they > aren't usually applied. If they were applied world would be a lot of > different than it is. I think Spain has an entirely different economic system if you think that most aren't followed. Economy around here is good enough that everyone must compete - especially small companies - to win customers over their competitors. I can immediately think of 4 comapnies I've dealt with in the last 3 days that have had exemplary honesty - beyond the call of duty. You just have to live in the US to see that there are indeed lots of businesses who are honorable, and who genuinely love what they do. > > Nope, but if you're an influential person, you can "infect" others with > > similar styles of thinking. It takes time. You can't just one day suddenly > > command millions. ;-) > A kind of messiah? It's a very dangerous thing. For any good of those > influential person there are many more than than are really bad or evil. Very true. But I'm saying that if you positively affect 10 people in your life - giving them the benefit of the doubt or making sure that they get a "good deal" out of their purchase - TRULY take care of them, that tends to have a subconscious effect on others. It's like having a whole bunch of really bad dates and you think all women are evil, and then you meet one girl who is just awesome and sweet and it changes the way you think. If you run your business honestly and care about the customer, you can sleep at night with a clear conscience knowing that many people are happy with you and your products. > Think about how many Hitlers there were and how many Gandhis, Jesuses or > Budas there were. This is a bit outside what I'm talking about, but yes, I agree with your point. > > the US economy is better than it has ever been. The US has an amazingly > > low unemployment rate - lowest in the world if I'm not mistaken. There are > > far more jobs available in the US than we can fill, so we're "importing". > US economy (and also europe economy) is arised over the resources of all > over the world. Without exploitment of low developed countries a lot > of things would be different. And many usual products will be very more > expensive. I'd say some, but not "a lot". > > I'd say it works quite well for the US. > The Greek or Roman slave economic system also worked very well ..., for > the owner of course, but no for the slaves. That's stretching for an analogy - we're hardly talking about slave labor, here. The economy in the US works well for damn near everybody. Actually, those who don't want to work don't count. Our unemployment rate is actually 3.8%. > > > Justice/law works? Not usuallly. > > With real problems it does. It takes a while, but it does work. > I have seen in my countrie and other countries a lot of cases that > Justice didn't work or didn't work properly. Bad example: Capone was > jailed because of taxes not because it was a mafious. It's because he was a sneaky bastard and really had the ability to cover up his tracks. They did nail him *HARD* on tax evasion, though. Also, at that time, the laws were still fairly new in that department. They've changed so much now that Capone would be nailed so quickly it'd make your head spin. > > The internet isn't media controlled communication, which is what I was > > getting at. ;-) > Still. It isn't STILL controlled. Governments wants a lot of more control > and media companies want to get into too. But the average people don't > uses internet for talking with other people about the future of the world, > but they use those ugly chats saying nosenses all the time. You've got to take the good with the bad. It has been said that over 50% of the internet traffic is porn. We're still farting around with our newfound technology - downloading MP3s, streaming porno, and Java applets. We're not really using it forthings that are horribly constructive just yet, but as a new "thing" becomes available, it generally is abused and played with until its proper use comes. > > Then they aren't seeking better lives. If you work hard, don't take no for > > an answer, and open the door when opportunity knocks, there's nothing > > inherent about the US that'll prevent you from bettering yourself. > So bad luck doesn't exist? I can follow your view of live. There are a lot > of things that can prevent someone from getting a better live. For example > a meteor could kill you. ;) My point is the general public gives up too easily. They don't keep at it, they quit because it's "too hard". But I'm not talking about getting killed by a meteor. That has nothing to do with whether or not you're willing to go through the hurdles that are thrown in front of you. > > > And I predict that we perhaps we don't have the chance or time ot > > > invent the replicator. > > I don't believe that. > But I'm still afraid, perhaps I'm too pesimist. That kind of attitude has a tendency to be a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't believe that anything is impossible, no matter what people tell me. I've found through experiences in my life that nothing is impossible. I'm quite thankful that my peers give up sooner than I do, because it makes my competing with them even easier. ;-) > > EH? What about ETs who have already evolved to a communist way of thinking > > and who introduce devices that end hunger, disease, and poverty? > With such a technology people sure will begin first a war and will > kill all the livings beings on Earth :p What a dim view of things! The only way for us to know is when it happens. > > One can argue that people's desire for more money is so they can buy more > > stuff and have more freedom. If you have a replicator, your every material > > desire is met, negating the need for money. > You can say what you want but a replicator isn't a sollution. I didn't say it was a solution. I said that it'd be the invention that actually causes world change in this direction. IT's the start of a "new era", as it were. > It's the > same as say: God will come and it will give everyone what they want, evil > will be pursuit and everyone will live happy. There's a big difference between a material object's invention and a deity that no one can conclusively prove even exists. ;-) > produce goods. Perhaps I'm dreaming when I talk about the human nature > changing, but sure such thing as a replicator is also a dream. For now it is. 30 Years ago, 25MHZ microprocessors were a fantasy. They've long since surpassed reality. I just don't understand dim views of the future. If everyone would stop believeing that we actually have limits to what we can do, we'd be so much farther along in society and technologically. > for example, someone invents the replicator, who will be? a mad scientist > working alone? not it will be corporation laboratory or a military science > facility. And what use they can do to such an invention? Militars will want > to destroy enemy countries with the new technology because when a weapon > is invented it will be used no matter how evil it could be, no matter how > good people they think they are. As we say here "the evil loads the guns". > And a corporation will try to conquer the world in the way they have, > economically. Perhaps it isn't a true view, but it has some points to > take in care. Look at what drives greed: Desire for more money because they don't have it. Desire for "Things" that people want that they don't have. If a replicator had the ability to give everything to everyone, everyone's desires would be satisfied. Greed would cease to exist, because everyone gets what they want! If you want to change world thinking, I'd recommend not being so pessimistic about things. Believe that everything and anything is possible. Giving up is what causes things to stagnate. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat May 13 16:35:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09403 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003a01bfbd3c$7f29da80$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:23:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > > Anyone want to guess my age? ;-) I just had a birthday last Saturday. > > Given that you consistently post messages up to 10am GMT, which must be > > hideously early in the morning your time, I'd say about 18. ;) Don't you > > ever sleep? > > Not enough, no. My schedule is fairly routine, though. I'm up until 2-2:30 > PDT and I get up around 9:30PDT and sit around for an hour before I head > off to work. I can stay logged in to Synthcom all day long from work > because I just telnet in from there, so sometimes I get breaks at work > where I'm running some huge test or am having lunch and can answer > email. The long ones I usually reserve for late at night, but I was out > partying last night so I didn't even check my mail. I think I could live with that time schedule quite happily. I'm generally up until 0:30 but I have to be up at 7:00 to be at work for 8.10 (or around there). And I stay there normally until 18:55 - it's a long day. Of course, on Tuesday and Thursday I have Ju-jitsu now, so I leave earlier on those days. And then I'm not home until at least 21:30. I do too much! :o What is it that your company does exactly? I thought that you worked for Intel, but you have mentioned about your own company before now - so I'm not sure... :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat May 13 16:35:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09404 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003b01bfbd3c$800baf00$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:24:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > *cough* > > Whose erection, exactly, are you holding? ;p > > Wouldn' *YOU* like to know... big boy! ;-) I didn't just read that... I didn't just read that... Lalalalaaaaa... ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat May 13 16:45:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09440 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004101bfbd3d$e43cae60$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:46:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, Beginning of a new look. Nowhere near finished, just let me know what you think (colours and all). And if you've got any better colours to use, let me know what they are! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat May 13 17:13:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09491 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <004101bfbd3d$e43cae60$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <00036789185907a3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <004101bfbd3d$e43cae60$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:17:26 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Beginning of a new look. Nowhere near finished, just let me know what you >think (colours and all). And if you've got any better colours to use, let me >know what they are! :o Wow this one's cool! I like the logo, and the colouring of the table. The only thing I'd change is the date format, since the one you are using can be ambigious. I normally use the ISO date, which would be 2000-05-14 instead of 14/5/00. Otherwise it's a very nice work. I think we "elected" the right webmaster ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of idea. -- John Ciardi --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sat May 13 21:18:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA09688 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 13 May 2000 21:17:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:23:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <00036789185907a3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Beginning of a new look. Nowhere near finished, just let me know what you > >think (colours and all). And if you've got any better colours to use, let me > >know what they are! :o > Wow this one's cool! > I like the logo, and the colouring of the table. > The only thing I'd change is the date format, since the one you are using can > be ambigious. I normally use the ISO date, which would be 2000-05-14 instead > of 14/5/00. Better yet, just say "May 14th, 2000". That's universal. > Otherwise it's a very nice work. I think we "elected" the right webmaster ;-) I agree! The only minor thing I'd change is adding some black space to the logo like in the 'a' and 'e'. Other than that, damn sharp! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 01:16:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA09872 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 01:16:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:21:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <003a01bfbd3c$7f29da80$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > What is it that your company does exactly? I thought that you worked for > Intel, but you have mentioned about your own company before now - so I'm not > sure... :o I do work for Intel during the day, but by night I'm a musician who makes synthesizer/keyboard modifications and upgrades. Currently I'm working on the first one... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 03:34:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA10169 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 03:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036791c45590b7_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:38:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Better yet, just say "May 14th, 2000". That's universal. That is the other solution of course ;-) BTW, forgot to mention that the time should be probably dropped since we'd have to use a standard time (eg. GMT), but even then we will cause confusion. -- M.I.K.e In Boston, it is illegal to hold frog-jumping contests in nightclubs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 04:14:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA10226 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:14:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036792500b1e1b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:17:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I do work for Intel during the day, Uh-oh, I read that you were working for Intel but I didn't know that you are still working for them. I guess I'll never try to argue with you about Intel processors again... >but by night I'm a musician That's the typical time for musicians ;-) >who makes synthesizer/keyboard modifications and upgrades. So that's Synthcom then. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "Wrong," said Renner. "The tactful way," Rod said quietly, "the polite way to disagree with the Senator would be to say, `That turns out not to be the case.'" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 05:46:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA10351 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 05:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: DRFAQ extanded From: "M.I.K.e" Message-ID: <000367939c6d1eb8_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:50:12 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I've extended the DRFAQ a bit, maybe you want to take a look: http://www.dynarec.com/~mike/drfaq.html -- M.I.K.e How do you explain school to a higher intelligence? -- Elliot, "E.T." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 08:43:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA10550 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 08:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001501bfbdbb$cf21dc20$0a53883e@ben> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:48:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > >Beginning of a new look. Nowhere near finished, just let me know what you > > >think (colours and all). And if you've got any better colours to use, let me > > >know what they are! :o > > Wow this one's cool! > > I like the logo, and the colouring of the table. > > The only thing I'd change is the date format, since the one you are using can > > be ambigious. I normally use the ISO date, which would be 2000-05-14 instead > > of 14/5/00. > > Better yet, just say "May 14th, 2000". That's universal. I think you mean, "14th May, 2000". ;) > > Otherwise it's a very nice work. I think we "elected" the right webmaster ;-) > > I agree! The only minor thing I'd change is adding some black space to the > logo like in the 'a' and 'e'. Other than that, damn sharp! I like it too. It loads really fast, which is useful for those of us using a good old fashioned dial up modem connected over an analogue phone line (I'm currently connected at 24000 baud!), and it's clear and easy to read. I want to see links to various people pages, though! I've got to remember to add /~mike/ whenever I want to get at the FAQ, and that's ever such a strain on my diddy little mental powers. Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 09:05:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10587 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 09:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:11:21 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ extanded Message-ID: <20000514171120.A932@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <000367939c6d1eb8_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <000367939c6d1eb8_mailit@mail.dynarec.com>; from M.I.K.e on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:50:12PM +0200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:50:12PM +0200, M.I.K.e wrote: > I've extended the DRFAQ a bit, maybe you want to take a look: > http://www.dynarec.com/~mike/drfaq.html Cool! Thanks for including my stuff... I've done a slight tidy-up of my page using shtml [1], but I can't enable server-side preprocessed pages in the apache config on dynarec.com - the stuff which needs to be done is enabling shtml and adding index.shtml to the default page-name list nearer the top of the file... this is probably a job for Neil B, since he's probably the only one with the necessary access privileges afaik (beg ;-)) If you want a look, the pages are on my old server at http://jtb20.quns.cam.ac.uk/armphetamine. If you want to see the sort of thing you can do really easily with shtml, have a look at http://dynarec.com/~jules/index.shtml before shtml's enabled... Oh dear, I've been sitting around in the sun all day today instead of revising. I'll regret that in a few weeks... Jules [1] No new content, mind... and it's rather blue ;-) -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 11:22:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10748 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <001501bfbdbb$cf21dc20$0a53883e@ben> Message-ID: <0003679842f1d9c8_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <001501bfbdbb$cf21dc20$0a53883e@ben> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:23:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I think you mean, "14th May, 2000". ;) We don't want to start another independence war, do we? ;-) >I like it too. It loads really fast, which is useful for those of us using a >good old fashioned dial up modem connected over an analogue phone line (I'm >currently connected at 24000 baud!), That's slow indeed. I normally don't get the full 56K, but 33.6 should be the minimum. >and it's clear and easy to read. Yep. >I want >to see links to various people pages, though! I've got to remember to add >/~mike/ whenever I want to get at the FAQ, Actually it's /~mike/drfaq.html ;-) But how often do you read the FAQ anyway? >and that's ever such a strain on my diddy little mental powers. Hard work for your lonely brain cell? I wonder why my last one didn't die yet... >Andrew -- M.I.K.e SHIFT TO THE LEFT! SHIFT TO THE RIGHT! POP UP, PUSH DOWN, BYTE, BYTE, BYTE! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 11:22:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10744 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ extanded From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <20000514171120.A932@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000367984d7cc6d5_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000367939c6d1eb8_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <20000514171120.A932@jtb20b.quns.cam.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:26:02 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> http://www.dynarec.com/~mike/drfaq.html >Cool! Thanks for including my stuff... It would be a shame if I didn't mention the work of a dynarec.com member! But I still have to write the short comment as I did for the other docs, although I also have to do it for Shade as well, so you're in good company. >Jules -- M.I.K.e Those who in quarrels interpose, must often wipe a bloody nose. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 11:33:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10789 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003901bfbddb$778ed4c0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:25:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Better yet, just say "May 14th, 2000". That's universal. It's changed. :) > > Otherwise it's a very nice work. I think we "elected" the right webmaster ;-) > > I agree! The only minor thing I'd change is adding some black space to the > logo like in the 'a' and 'e'. Other than that, damn sharp! Thanks! I've "fixed" the problem with the 'a' and 'e' characters, not sure they look better than before, but WTH. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 11:33:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10803 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003a01bfbddb$7893c1a0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <004101bfbd3d$e43cae60$0100a8c0@lion> <00036789185907a3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:26:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Wow this one's cool! Thanks! :) > I like the logo, and the colouring of the table. I'm glad you like them. I'm afraid that the colours used in the table are a little bright, I'll try to make them slightly darker before I've finished. But I'm glad you like them. :) > Otherwise it's a very nice work. I think we "elected" the right webmaster ;-) Heh. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 11:33:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10806 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003b01bfbddb$798e0020$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:27:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I do work for Intel during the day, but by night I'm a musician who makes > synthesizer/keyboard modifications and upgrades. Currently I'm working on > the first one... Ah, okay. I understand better now! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 11:33:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10811 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003c01bfbddb$7a576aa0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <00036791c45590b7_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:27:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > BTW, forgot to mention that the time should be probably dropped since we'd > have to use a standard time (eg. GMT), but even then we will cause confusion. That's a good point. It should be fixed now. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 11:33:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10815 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:33:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003d01bfbddb$7b17ad60$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <001501bfbdbb$cf21dc20$0a53883e@ben> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:29:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > I agree! The only minor thing I'd change is adding some black space to the > > logo like in the 'a' and 'e'. Other than that, damn sharp! > > I like it too. It loads really fast, which is useful for those of us using a > good old fashioned dial up modem connected over an analogue phone line (I'm > currently connected at 24000 baud!), and it's clear and easy to read. I want > to see links to various people pages, though! I've got to remember to add > /~mike/ whenever I want to get at the FAQ, and that's ever such a strain on > my diddy little mental powers. That was also a good idea. I've put that in as well. It might be better placed at the bottom, but as I'm not sure whether we should have news on the main page or not just yet, I've placed them at the top. It looks okay at the moment, IMHO... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 12:00:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10868 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:05:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <00036792500b1e1b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >I do work for Intel during the day, > Uh-oh, I read that you were working for Intel but I didn't know that you are > still working for them. I guess I'll never try to argue with you about Intel > processors again... Why? Just because I work for the company doesn't mean I have a violent agreement with everything they do. That's stupid! I disagree with a *LOT* of what goes on! > >who makes synthesizer/keyboard modifications and upgrades. > So that's Synthcom then. Yup! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 12:04:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10898 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:09:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <001501bfbdbb$cf21dc20$0a53883e@ben> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Better yet, just say "May 14th, 2000". That's universal. > I think you mean, "14th May, 2000". ;) No, I meant May 14th, 2000. I have friends in Germany and several from the UK here in the US (who are not native but moved here a few years ago) and none of them speak this way. I find it quite a bit silly that Europeans aren't consistent with the mm/dd/yy and textual layout. ;=-) > I like it too. It loads really fast, which is useful for those of us using a > good old fashioned dial up modem connected over an analogue phone line (I'm > currently connected at 24000 baud!), and it's clear and easy to read. I want > to see links to various people pages, though! I've got to remember to add > /~mike/ whenever I want to get at the FAQ, and that's ever such a strain on > my diddy little mental powers. So is that what the links at the top of the page will eventually do? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 12:10:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10917 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:10:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:16:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <003901bfbddb$778ed4c0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > I agree! The only minor thing I'd change is adding some black space to the > > logo like in the 'a' and 'e'. Other than that, damn sharp! > Thanks! I've "fixed" the problem with the 'a' and 'e' characters, not sure > they look better than before, but WTH. :) I think it does look better. It was easy for us to read initially because we knew what the logo said, but my wife said "What does that say?". I'm sure that others would have a similar issue with the prior rev. Looks great now! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 12:40:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10960 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000367995920dafb_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:40:53 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >No, I meant May 14th, 2000. I have friends in Germany and several from the >UK here in the US (who are not native but moved here a few years ago) and >none of them speak this way. I find it quite a bit silly that Europeans >aren't consistent with the mm/dd/yy and textual layout. ;=-) That's why I use the ISO date on my pages (yyyy-mm-dd): * it's clear to understand * it sorts nicely * and it doesn't have the funny "00" when you mean "2000". >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Blore's Razor: Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 12:40:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10968 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <003a01bfbddb$7893c1a0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <000367995d92e5d3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <004101bfbd3d$e43cae60$0100a8c0@lion> <00036789185907a3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <003a01bfbddb$7893c1a0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:42:07 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I'm glad you like them. I'm afraid that the colours used in the table are a >little bright, I'll try to make them slightly darker before I've finished. >But I'm glad you like them. :) I guess the red could be a tick darker, but the blue is ok for me. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away. It is time to go elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is that it made it possible to go elsewhere. -- Robert Heinlein --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 12:40:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10976 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:40:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000367995140907c_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:38:40 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Why? Just because I work for the company doesn't mean I have a violent >agreement with everything they do. That's stupid! I disagree with a *LOT* >of what goes on! Sorry, I guess I should know you better by now, especially that you are open to discussions. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Ask your boss to reconsider -- it's so difficult to take "Go to hell" for an answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 12:47:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10992 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:52:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <000367995140907c_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Why? Just because I work for the company doesn't mean I have a violent > >agreement with everything they do. That's stupid! I disagree with a *LOT* > >of what goes on! > Sorry, I guess I should know you better by now, especially that you are open > to discussions. Uh... were you being sarcastic here? ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 12:55:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11015 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:55:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036799942dba18_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:57:23 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Uh... were you being sarcastic here? ;-) Not really, but if you prefer to see it that way... ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "Sherry [Thomas Sheridan] is dull, naturally dull; but it must have taken him a great deal of pains to become what we now see him. Such an excess of stupidity, sir, is not in Nature." -- Samuel Johnson --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 13:07:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11048 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 13:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:12:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <00036799942dba18_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Uh... were you being sarcastic here? ;-) > Not really, but if you prefer to see it that way... ;-) That's the shortcoming of email. You've got a particular sentence that can be taken one of two ways - one very complementary, one not so complementary. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 13:30:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11096 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 13:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003679a1afead4a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:35:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >That's the shortcoming of email. You've got a particular sentence that can >be taken one of two ways - one very complementary, one not so >complementary. ;-) I love ambiguity ;-) But it certainly was meant in the positive way. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e One cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs -- but it is amazing how many eggs one can break without making a decent omelette. -- Professor Charles P. Issawi --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 13:32:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11109 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 13:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:37:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! In-Reply-To: <0003679a1afead4a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >be taken one of two ways - one very complementary, one not so > >complementary. ;-) > I love ambiguity ;-) > But it certainly was meant in the positive way. I appreciate that. There's this notion floating around everywhere that just because you work for a given company that you believe in everything it does and says (unless you work for Apple where it's absolutely true). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 13:50:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11140 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 13:50:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002601bfbdee$a9e22720$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:46:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > No, I meant May 14th, 2000. I have friends in Germany and several from the > UK here in the US (who are not native but moved here a few years ago) and > none of them speak this way. I find it quite a bit silly that Europeans > aren't consistent with the mm/dd/yy and textual layout. ;=-) Yeah, but you Americans have different laws for different states. Why can't we have different textual layouts? ;) > So is that what the links at the top of the page will eventually do? Er... they already _do_ do that. I hope. They work for me! :o Has anyone viewed the pages in anything *but* IE? It should look best in IE because I'm using the "Verdana" font which comes with it and looks pretty nice. Netscape should be okay as well, but I hate it so I'm not going to check it out. Well, not from home. I have no choice when I go to work... You use NetPositive, don't you Mike? Apart from the image at the top, how is it? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 13:51:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11150 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 13:51:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002701bfbdee$b5893f00$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:47:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I think it does look better. It was easy for us to read initially because > we knew what the logo said, but my wife said "What does that say?". And I bet you were thinking "Don't say Playboy! Don't say Playboy!". And you got away with it too! ;)) > I'm sure that others would have a similar issue with the prior rev. Looks > great now! Glad you like it. I'm just not so happy with the 'e' character, I think I may have removed too much. Oh well, not a problem - I've still got the original. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 13:56:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11170 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 13:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003101bfbdef$87414ba0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:58:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I appreciate that. There's this notion floating around everywhere that > just because you work for a given company that you believe in everything > it does and says (unless you work for Apple where it's absolutely true). Or 3Dfx. Sorry. :) Anyway, two updates to the webspace. The first is to the main page where I've altered the red slightly - I'm more happy with it now. The second is to my own space where I have uploaded a file called "dynarec.zip". I don't know where I got it from but I found it in with lots of my download files. It contains lots of documentation on dynamic recompilation. It's quite possible I got it from one of you guys, I'm not sure. Anyway, some people may find it useful. The link is: http://www.dynarec.com/~neilg/dynarec.zip Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 14:00:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA11193 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:05:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <002601bfbdee$a9e22720$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > UK here in the US (who are not native but moved here a few years ago) and > > none of them speak this way. I find it quite a bit silly that Europeans > > aren't consistent with the mm/dd/yy and textual layout. ;=-) > Yeah, but you Americans have different laws for different states. Why can't > we have different textual layouts? ;) Hehehehehe. ;-) Consistency is a nice thing. Make it say May 14th, 2000. That's the way everyone speaks it and it reads much better. > > So is that what the links at the top of the page will eventually do? > Er... they already _do_ do that. I hope. They work for me! :o > Has anyone viewed the pages in anything *but* IE? It should look best in IE > because I'm using the "Verdana" font which comes with it and looks pretty > nice. Netscape should be okay as well, but I hate it so I'm not going to > check it out. Well, not from home. I have no choice when I go to work... You > use NetPositive, don't you Mike? Apart from the image at the top, how is it? I don't use IE except when Netscape decides it wants to start stalling on page loads. But under Netscape, clicking on the user names didn't get me anywhere. ;-( -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 15:07:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11276 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <002601bfbdee$a9e22720$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <0003679b712ede15_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <002601bfbdee$a9e22720$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:10:46 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Has anyone viewed the pages in anything *but* IE? Yes, me. >It should look best in IE >because I'm using the "Verdana" font which comes with it and looks pretty >nice. I could try to install it on BeOS since it uses TrueType fonts as well. Is it part of Win98 or do I have to download it from somewhere? >Netscape should be okay as well, but I hate it so I'm not going to >check it out. Well, not from home. I have no choice when I go to work... I can check it with Netscape at work too, or at home but I didn't start it for ages... >You use NetPositive, don't you Mike? Apart from the image at the top, how is it? Works fine. The strange thing is that the logo is sometimes centered and sometimes not, seems to be a bug in NetPositive - certainly not the first one I found, but I'm still happier with it than with Netscape. What Neil meant about the links could have to do with the fact that Victor and Andy don't have an account yet. All other references work fine. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it." -- Steven Wright --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 15:07:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11285 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003679b53f7ebd1_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:02:36 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I appreciate that. There's this notion floating around everywhere that >just because you work for a given company that you believe in everything >it does and says Since I don't do that myself I normally don't believe that of others. >(unless you work for Apple where it's absolutely true). Or your name is Jean-Louis Gasse ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e An age is called Dark not because the light fails to shine, but because people refuse to see it. -- James Michener, "Space" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 14 15:07:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11292 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:07:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Website is up! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <003101bfbdef$87414ba0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <0003679b758521c8_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <003101bfbdef$87414ba0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:11:59 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Anyway, two updates to the webspace. The first is to the main page where >I've altered the red slightly - I'm more happy with it now. I'll take a look... >The second is to >my own space where I have uploaded a file called "dynarec.zip". I don't know >where I got it from but I found it in with lots of my download files. It >contains lots of documentation on dynamic recompilation. It's quite possible >I got it from one of you guys, I'm not sure. I bet you downloaded it from Victor's page. In that case I have it already... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Endless Loop: n., see Loop, Endless. Loop, Endless: n., see Endless Loop. -- Random Shack Data Processing Dictionary --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 00:59:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11768 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 00:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001901bfbe43$68ff20a0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:58:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Bradley > > > UK here in the US (who are not native but moved here a few years ago) and > > > none of them speak this way. I find it quite a bit silly that Europeans > > > aren't consistent with the mm/dd/yy and textual layout. ;=-) > > Yeah, but you Americans have different laws for different states. Why can't > > we have different textual layouts? ;) > > Hehehehehe. ;-) Consistency is a nice thing. Make it say May 14th, > 2000. That's the way everyone speaks it and it reads much better. I still don't get the mm/dd/yy thing, though. It doesn't make any sense. dd/mm/yy, yes. yy/mm/dd, fine. But mm/dd/yy isn't in any sort of sensible order. Where'd it come from originally? > > > So is that what the links at the top of the page will eventually do? > > Er... they already _do_ do that. I hope. They work for me! :o > > Has anyone viewed the pages in anything *but* IE? It should look best in IE > > because I'm using the "Verdana" font which comes with it and looks pretty > > nice. Netscape should be okay as well, but I hate it so I'm not going to > > check it out. Well, not from home. I have no choice when I go to work... You > > use NetPositive, don't you Mike? Apart from the image at the top, how is it? > > I don't use IE except when Netscape decides it wants to start stalling on > page loads. But under Netscape, clicking on the user names didn't get me > anywhere. ;-( They work fine for me. I must take this opportunity to comment on your incredible page, the reading of which has motivated me to hand in my notice, forsake a normal life, and dedicate myself entirely to the pursuit of binary translation. Shalom! By the way, when are you adding the jpgs? ;) Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 01:01:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11788 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 01:01:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005150807.KAA02465@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 13, 2000 11:55:18 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:07:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com How many time until you lost a discussion? ;) And a precission: I was wrong, Spain IS a catholic country :p. All weekend talking about that fucking third secret of Fatima ... And they are still talking about it! Hell! I will become a a priest of the dark church of Satan as revenge ;) > I can't argue that it isn't stupid. If I had a choice between not touching > a "working" system and causing recession or harming an economy, I'd have > to take the former. > A person is the system? > No, I'm not wrong here. What I'm saying is that everyone has an > opportunity to better themselves. What makes that work is that very few of > people actually *TRY* to better themselves, so they remain where they are. > I can see your point, but I still I saw too much poverty in the world. > If you run your business honestly and care about the customer, you can > sleep at night with a clear conscience knowing that many people are happy > with you and your products. > I think there are a lot of people doesn't need honesty to sleep at night, = they use the TV. It's incredible but today I don't feel the forces to reply your mail :o. > That's stretching for an analogy - we're hardly talking about slave labor, > here. The economy in the US works well for damn near everybody. Actually, > those who don't want to work don't count. > How live the people without working? > > You've got to take the good with the bad. It has been said that over 50% > of the internet traffic is porn. We're still farting around with our > newfound technology - downloading MP3s, streaming porno, and Java > applets. We're not really using it forthings that are horribly > constructive just yet, but as a new "thing" becomes available, it > generally is abused and played with until its proper use comes. > As TV. I'm still waiting for a good TV, in fact in Spain is becoming worst a worst every day. > My point is the general public gives up too easily. They don't keep at it, > they quit because it's "too hard". But I'm not talking about getting > killed by a meteor. That has nothing to do with whether or not you're > willing to go through the hurdles that are thrown in front of you. > Agreed. Average people will ever do average work. You can't expect everyone to be a kind life fighter. And "too hard" is a subjective expression. People are different each other, what for one is easy for other could be really hard. What it is needed is a system that helps everyone find a place where they feel happy not a system where they have to fight agains everything to be happy. > > That kind of attitude has a tendency to be a self fulfilling prophecy. I > don't believe that anything is impossible, no matter what people tell > me. I've found through experiences in my life that nothing is > impossible. I'm quite thankful that my peers give up sooner than I do, > because it makes my competing with them even easier. ;-) > > > You can say what you want but a replicator isn't a sollution. > > I didn't say it was a solution. I said that it'd be the invention that > actually causes world change in this direction. IT's the start of a "new > era", as it were. > Of course it's a new era. An area where every idiot will have the power to destroy worlds. Education first, then the power. If you have first the power you will have to learn about it and you can harm yourself or everyone else. They kind of technology you call a replicator has a lot of dark uses. > There's a big difference between a material object's invention and a deity > that no one can conclusively prove even exists. ;-) > Your replicator seems a little about the anti-entropic machine and that is against all we still know about the nature laws. The amounts of energy needed are very far from what we have now. > For now it is. 30 Years ago, 25MHZ microprocessors were a fantasy. They've > long since surpassed reality. > I'm reading Science Fiction since I was child, and I don't mean StarWars books but serious SF. So I think I know a bit about future expeculations. I hope the best from the science in next years, from Computers, Genetics and Enginery. But we can't work hoping that technology will be the solution of all our problems. > I just don't understand dim views of the future. If everyone would stop > believeing that we actually have limits to what we can do, we'd be so much > farther along in society and technologically. > There are limits. We are far away of them but there are a lot of limits in the universe. Universe itself is limited. Do you think eternal life, for example, is a real chance? Our universe, until we know something new, is limited and will end. All things from stars to living beings will end someday. What stops people to go farther is the fear for the unknown. > Look at what drives greed: Desire for more money because they don't have > it. Desire for "Things" that people want that they don't have. If a > replicator had the ability to give everything to everyone, everyone's > desires would be satisfied. Greed would cease to exist, because everyone > gets what they want! > There will be ever things impossible. Things related to the own power over other people for example. Unless you want to convert humans in a kind of gods, each separated on their owns worlds building a mad reality following their desires. Buda, Aristoteles, Platon and others good phylosophers were against the fullfishness of all desires. For ages there has been people with all their MATERIAL desires fulfilled, this makes them better or more happy than a peasant. I don't think so. Giving all they one to people who don't really now what they need or want is a mistake. It's best to try to educate them and show them how to live properly. Education and culture not material beings and consume. A basic set of things are needed: enough food, medicines, entertainment but I can't agree with leting everyone fullfill their mad dreams. And a thought: we don't need a replicator just a real VR (virtual reality) technology. Everyone plugged in a fake world that fullfill their desires. Or a drug that makes everyone happy without danger for health, these are more easy than a replicator. Interested in that kind of wolrds?. Hell! I'm still being pessimistic. > If you want to change world thinking, I'd recommend not being so > pessimistic about things. Believe that everything and anything is > possible. Giving up is what causes things to stagnate. > There are times I'm pessimistic and there are times I'm optimistic and a lot of more I don't really care about it. I also think that if you think something impossible becomes impossible but I just don't see myself trying to change the world as the world don't seem to be changing by itself I have to be realistic. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 01:18:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11807 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 01:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:24:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <001901bfbe43$68ff20a0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Hehehehehe. ;-) Consistency is a nice thing. Make it say May 14th, > > 2000. That's the way everyone speaks it and it reads much better. > I still don't get the mm/dd/yy thing, though. It doesn't make any sense. > dd/mm/yy, yes. yy/mm/dd, fine. But mm/dd/yy isn't in any sort of sensible > order. Where'd it come from originally? It's the order spoken by everyone in every English speaking culture I've found. Saying day/month/year is inconsistent with that. So if I say "What day is it?" The response, regardless of the English speaking country is: "It's June 5th." Not: "It's the 5th of June". Therefore, mm/dd/yy has consistency where dd/mm/yy doesn't. So *NYAH*! ;-) > > I don't use IE except when Netscape decides it wants to start stalling on > > page loads. But under Netscape, clicking on the user names didn't get me > > anywhere. ;-( > They work fine for me. I must take this opportunity to comment on your > incredible page, the reading of which has motivated me to hand in my notice, > forsake a normal life, and dedicate myself entirely to the pursuit of binary > translation. Shalom! Yes. We must sacrifice at least once piece of old code to the Dynarec god of translation, otherwise we're cursed with emulation. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 01:25:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11823 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 01:25:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005150831.KAA03068@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 15, 2000 01:24:10 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:31:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > Hehehehehe. ;-) Consistency is a nice thing. Make it say May 14th, > > > 2000. That's the way everyone speaks it and it reads much better. > > I still don't get the mm/dd/yy thing, though. It doesn't make any sense. > > dd/mm/yy, yes. yy/mm/dd, fine. But mm/dd/yy isn't in any sort of sensible > > order. Where'd it come from originally? > > It's the order spoken by everyone in every English speaking culture I've > found. Saying day/month/year is inconsistent with that. > > So if I say "What day is it?" > > The response, regardless of the English speaking country is: > > "It's June 5th." > > Not: > > "It's the 5th of June". > > Therefore, mm/dd/yy has consistency where dd/mm/yy doesn't. > > So *NYAH*! ;-) > A bit more about the date wars: In Spanish anything different from dd/mm/yy has no sense. It's the only one we use. This is another problem of those fucking englishmen using miles and feets but meters and kilometers ;) Just joking, don't think bad about me. :) > > > I don't use IE except when Netscape decides it wants to start stalling on > > > page loads. But under Netscape, clicking on the user names didn't get me > > > anywhere. ;-( > > They work fine for me. I must take this opportunity to comment on your > > incredible page, the reading of which has motivated me to hand in my notice, > > forsake a normal life, and dedicate myself entirely to the pursuit of binary > > translation. Shalom! > > Yes. We must sacrifice at least once piece of old code to the Dynarec god > of translation, otherwise we're cursed with emulation. ;-) > Very fun, very fun ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 01:28:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11833 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 01:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003b01bfbe47$93ff49c0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:28:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > Hehehehehe. ;-) Consistency is a nice thing. Make it say May 14th, > > > 2000. That's the way everyone speaks it and it reads much better. > > I still don't get the mm/dd/yy thing, though. It doesn't make any sense. > > dd/mm/yy, yes. yy/mm/dd, fine. But mm/dd/yy isn't in any sort of sensible > > order. Where'd it come from originally? > > It's the order spoken by everyone in every English speaking culture I've > found. Saying day/month/year is inconsistent with that. > > So if I say "What day is it?" > > The response, regardless of the English speaking country is: > > "It's June 5th." > > Not: > > "It's the 5th of June". Actually, before you gave that example, I'd have agreed with you. Now I look at it, though, I'm sure I've used the 'the 5th of June' order before... :) > Therefore, mm/dd/yy has consistency where dd/mm/yy doesn't. Yeah, but numbers is numbers. They don't follow the same rules as spoken English. An order of increasing/decreasing time periods just makes far more sense. > So *NYAH*! ;-) Oh, right. Well in that case, I suppose, I'll have to conceed the point... ;) > > > I don't use IE except when Netscape decides it wants to start stalling on > > > page loads. But under Netscape, clicking on the user names didn't get me > > > anywhere. ;-( > > They work fine for me. I must take this opportunity to comment on your > > incredible page, the reading of which has motivated me to hand in my notice, > > forsake a normal life, and dedicate myself entirely to the pursuit of binary > > translation. Shalom! > > Yes. We must sacrifice at least once piece of old code to the Dynarec god > of translation, otherwise we're cursed with emulation. ;-) And lo, the prophet has spoken. Henceforth all peoples will strain to maximise their nipple size, for so it is written in the Book of Bazookas. You could start a cult with a page like that. > -->Neil Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 01:29:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11843 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 01:29:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:34:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <200005150831.KAA03068@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > It's the order spoken by everyone in every English speaking culture I've > > found. Saying day/month/year is inconsistent with that. > > > > So if I say "What day is it?" > > > > The response, regardless of the English speaking country is: > > > > "It's June 5th." > > > > Not: > > > > "It's the 5th of June". > > > > Therefore, mm/dd/yy has consistency where dd/mm/yy doesn't. > > > > So *NYAH*! ;-) > > > A bit more about the date wars: > In Spanish anything different from dd/mm/yy has no sense. It's the only > one we use. This is another problem of those fucking englishmen using > miles and feets but meters and kilometers ;) Just joking, don't think > bad about me. :) Yeah, and those fucking Englishmen also drink warm beer, too. That's just sick! They're really stupid fuckers. ;-) Oh... wait a minute... I meant the French - the FRENCH! Yes, I didn't mean the English... no I didn't... ;-) But seriously, When someone asks you what the date is in Spanish, how is it spoken? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 01:36:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11862 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 01:36:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:42:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Even though it's horribly off topic, I feel like you guys are sorta my drinking buddies. ;-) My dad is a 76 year old guy who is now enjoying the fruits of the internet thanks to a few dialup lines on Synthcom (I'm his ISP). Periodically, I do a tcpdump to watch what packets are going where on the dialup lines to make sure I don't have any orphaned links. My dad was on, and it was fairly silent (lots of idle time) so I decided to do a tcpdump on him. I minimized the window and did something else. I came back to check on it, and names like "pussy.com", "hotoralsex.com", "fisting.com" and "assfucking.com" where scrolling by at horrid speeds on his link. I shook my head thinking that my dad had discovered internet porno, but the links were changing so quickly that something was up, so I killed the connection and called him. I informed him that I was watching him and asked him what was up with all the porn site access - just so I could tease him mercilously. His response: "Well, I got an email that said 'Click here for great girls!' and not knowing what it was, I did. Then my machine had so many instances of Netscape come up that my computer was thrashing on the hard drive and all of the instances of Netscape on the task bar became vertical slits and I couldn't shut it down! It just kept popping up more windows!" I actually believed him! It's a frightening thing to think my dad is in to fisting (or worse yet, gerbilling). ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:02:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12045 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:02:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005150908.LAA16916@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 15, 2000 01:34:38 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:08:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > A bit more about the date wars: > > In Spanish anything different from dd/mm/yy has no sense. It's the only > > one we use. This is another problem of those fucking englishmen using > > miles and feets but meters and kilometers ;) Just joking, don't think > > bad about me. :) > > Yeah, and those fucking Englishmen also drink warm beer, too. That's just > sick! They're really stupid fuckers. ;-) Oh... wait a minute... I meant > the French - the FRENCH! Yes, I didn't mean the English... no I > didn't... ;-) > > But seriously, When someone asks you what the date is in Spanish, how is > it spoken? > 15 de mayo del 2000, ever. In english 15th May 2000. And when we use numbers we use ever dd/mm/yy. All spanish versions of software (DOS, Windows) show the dates this way. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:09:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12058 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01bfbe4d$522244c0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:09:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Even though it's horribly off topic, I feel like you guys are sorta my > drinking buddies. ;-) Hey, if you're buying... ;) > My dad is a 76 year old guy who is now enjoying the fruits of the > internet thanks to a few dialup lines on Synthcom (I'm his ISP). I take it he lives locally? Incidentally, what sort of connections are the Synthcon and Dynarec servers hooked up to the outside world with? Cable? DSL? T1? > Periodically, I do a tcpdump to watch what packets are going where on the > dialup lines to make sure I don't have any orphaned links. My dad was on, > and it was fairly silent (lots of idle time) so I decided to do a tcpdump > on him. I minimized the window and did something else. I take it he's aware that his son is nothing but a dirty rotten spy? ;) You'll be vetting his email next... This sort of thing (although on a somewhat larger, non close family related, scale) really worries me, actually. Of course, this is coming from the bloke who's currently sending private emails over the office network during working hours. I'm feeling guilty now! > I came back to check on it, and names like "pussy.com", "hotoralsex.com", > "fisting.com" and "assfucking.com" where scrolling by at horrid speeds on > his link. I shook my head thinking that my dad had discovered internet > porno, but the links were changing so quickly that something was up, so I > killed the connection and called him. Thinking he'd 'discovered' internet porno? He's in his mid seventies, surely he's got a handle on the whole porn access thing by now? It took my dad a grand total of about three minutes on line to discover his first porn site, and he's only 52! :) > I informed him that I was watching him and asked him what was up with all > the porn site access - just so I could tease him mercilously. His > response: "Well, I got an email that said 'Click here for great girls!' > and not knowing what it was, I did. Then my machine had so many instances > of Netscape come up that my computer was thrashing on the hard drive and > all of the instances of Netscape on the task bar became vertical slits and > I couldn't shut it down! It just kept popping up more windows!" > > I actually believed him! It's a frightening thing to think my dad is in to > fisting (or worse yet, gerbilling). ;-) Aha! He's blatently going for the 'cute, older, gentleman who's totally naive about all this new fangled technology' approach! It *is* rather worrying, really, catching you parents doing this sort of stuff. I walked in on mine having sex when I was five, and, although I didn't even realise what they were doing at the time, it's scared me for life! When I was in my early teens I used to entertain myself of an evening by walking back and forward through the lounge when my dad was watching pervy late night TV shows, which led to him frantically trying to flick the channel over with our dodgy, semi-working remote control. We had another telly in an out of the way room, but he never seemed to suss that it would be easier to watch it on that... When you become a parent you're supposed to forego all pleasures of the flesh, aren't you? Got any plans that way yet, Neil? ;) Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:10:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12071 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <005001bfbe4d$761c7940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: <200005150908.LAA16916@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:10:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > A bit more about the date wars: > > > In Spanish anything different from dd/mm/yy has no sense. It's the only > > > one we use. This is another problem of those fucking englishmen using > > > miles and feets but meters and kilometers ;) Just joking, don't think > > > bad about me. :) > > > > Yeah, and those fucking Englishmen also drink warm beer, too. That's just > > sick! They're really stupid fuckers. ;-) Oh... wait a minute... I meant > > the French - the FRENCH! Yes, I didn't mean the English... no I > > didn't... ;-) > > > > But seriously, When someone asks you what the date is in Spanish, how is > > it spoken? > > > 15 de mayo del 2000, ever. In english 15th May 2000. And when we use > numbers we use ever dd/mm/yy. All spanish versions of software (DOS, > Windows) show the dates this way. > > Victor Moya Who does do it in mm/dd/yy? Is it just Americans? Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:12:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12080 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:12:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <005801bfbe4d$ac10bac0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:12:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Yeah, and those fucking Englishmen also drink warm beer, too. That's just > sick! They're really stupid fuckers. ;-) Oh... wait a minute... I meant > the French - the FRENCH! Yes, I didn't mean the English... no I > didn't... ;-) Calling us 'fucking Englishman' or 'stupid fuckers' is no problem at all. Confusing us with the French, though? This means war! Andrew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:14:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12089 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:14:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:19:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <005801bfbe4d$ac10bac0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > sick! They're really stupid fuckers. ;-) Oh... wait a minute... I meant > > the French - the FRENCH! Yes, I didn't mean the English... no I > > didn't... ;-) > Calling us 'fucking Englishman' or 'stupid fuckers' is no problem at all. > Confusing us with the French, though? This means war! No, no, no... you've got it wrong. ;-) Someone said "Englishmen" and I just rolled with it, when later on my brain engaged and realized that all my anger was directed toward the FRENCH and not the English! I actually realized what I was saying - never to confuse the English and the French! --;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:15:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12101 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:20:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <005001bfbe4d$761c7940$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > 15 de mayo del 2000, ever. In english 15th May 2000. And when we use > > numbers we use ever dd/mm/yy. All spanish versions of software (DOS, > > Windows) show the dates this way. > > Victor Moya > Who does do it in mm/dd/yy? Is it just Americans? US/Canada/Mexico/Japan I know first hand. I don't know any country that speaks "The 15th of May" in English. "May 15th" is said instead, which corresponds to the date format. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:21:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12113 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <008c01bfbe4e$fb0b1fc0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> From: "Andrew Davidson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:21:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > sick! They're really stupid fuckers. ;-) Oh... wait a minute... I meant > > > the French - the FRENCH! Yes, I didn't mean the English... no I > > > didn't... ;-) > > Calling us 'fucking Englishman' or 'stupid fuckers' is no problem at all. > > Confusing us with the French, though? This means war! > > No, no, no... you've got it wrong. ;-) Someone said "Englishmen" and I > just rolled with it, when later on my brain engaged and realized that all > my anger was directed toward the FRENCH and not the English! I actually > realized what I was saying - never to confuse the English and the French! > > --;-) > > -->Neil Really? Oh dear, and we've already launched the ICBMs! Never mind, eh? Global fallout from the US counter strike, and the destruction of civilisation as we know it, should teach you not to do it again! And the really good thing is the way the wind's blowing France is going to end up with most of the six legged sheep! Muahaha! Andrew :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:24:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12123 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:29:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <008c01bfbe4e$fb0b1fc0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Really? Oh dear, and we've already launched the ICBMs! Never mind, eh? > Global fallout from the US counter strike, and the destruction of > civilisation as we know it, should teach you not to do it again! And the > really good thing is the way the wind's blowing France is going to end up > with most of the six legged sheep! Muahaha! Let's not go off on the sheep tangent. We might get the Aussies excited with those 6 legged sheep! ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 02:29:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA12136 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:29:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:34:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies In-Reply-To: <004a01bfbe4d$522244c0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Even though it's horribly off topic, I feel like you guys are sorta my > > drinking buddies. ;-) > Hey, if you're buying... ;) Sure... I don't drink, but hey? Why not! > > My dad is a 76 year old guy who is now enjoying the fruits of the > > internet thanks to a few dialup lines on Synthcom (I'm his ISP). > I take it he lives locally? Incidentally, what sort of connections are the > Synthcon and Dynarec servers hooked up to the outside world with? Cable? > DSL? T1? He lives about 35 miles away from me (the boonies compared to suburbia where I live). Synthcom's link to the outside world is a 768K/128K DSL. I've got a block of 16 static IPs. His link is a dedicated dialup link using PPP - fixed IP address as well. > This sort of thing (although on a somewhat larger, non close family related, > scale) really worries me, actually. Of course, this is coming from the bloke > who's currently sending private emails over the office network during > working hours. I'm feeling guilty now! I don't really care if people see me peruse the spank channels.. uh.. wait... I didn't mean that. ;-) Well, since I'm the network admin for Synthcom (as well as the owner and all around god of the domain and the 12 machines that are connected to the network), I can watch others, but others can't watch me. ;-) Except my ISP, and I'm sure they've got much bigger things to worry about. > > his link. I shook my head thinking that my dad had discovered internet > > porno, but the links were changing so quickly that something was up, so I > > killed the connection and called him. > Thinking he'd 'discovered' internet porno? He's in his mid seventies, surely > he's got a handle on the whole porn access thing by now? It took my dad a > grand total of about three minutes on line to discover his first porn site, > and he's only 52! :) Nah. My dad is a bit older, which means that sort of thing was never in existence in the abundance that it is now. I actually believe him. He's not in to porno. > > I actually believed him! It's a frightening thing to think my dad is in to > > fisting (or worse yet, gerbilling). ;-) > Aha! He's blatently going for the 'cute, older, gentleman who's totally > naive about all this new fangled technology' approach! It *is* rather > worrying, really, catching you parents doing this sort of stuff. It was just my dad. This time. He sounded so distraught that it couldn't be anything other than genuine concern. > I walked in > on mine having sex when I was five, and, although I didn't even realise what > they were doing at the time, it's scared me for life! Nobody's parents ever had sex. Ever. Just remember that. > led to him frantically trying to flick the channel over with our dodgy, > semi-working remote control. We had another telly in an out of the way room, > but he never seemed to suss that it would be easier to watch it on that... Well, at least you weren't doing a warm apple pie. ;-) > When you become a parent you're supposed to forego all pleasures of the > flesh, aren't you? Got any plans that way yet, Neil? ;) As a matter of fact, the Mrs. went off the funny little round white pills a few weeks ago, so yes. In a couple of months now, we're going to be shooting for (no pun intended) a few kids. 3 Total. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 03:38:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA12230 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 03:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000367a5dba7b7b1_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:36:22 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Even though it's horribly off topic, I feel like you guys are sorta my >drinking buddies. ;-) Drinking over the internet is always a bit dry, don't you think so? But I guess if we all lived in the same country or even on the same continent we would have already stormed some pubs together ;-) >I informed him that I was watching him and asked him what was up with all >the porn site access - just so I could tease him mercilously. His >response: "Well, I got an email that said 'Click here for great girls!' You have to be very silent on the internet not to get such mails from time to time... >and not knowing what it was, I did. Then my machine had so many instances >of Netscape come up that my computer was thrashing on the hard drive and >all of the instances of Netscape on the task bar became vertical slits and >I couldn't shut it down! It just kept popping up more windows!" Damn JavaScript! I know why I like NetPositive ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Real Users never use the Help key. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 03:38:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA12239 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 03:38:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000367a5cf2642a8_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:32:52 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >But seriously, When someone asks you what the date is in Spanish, how is >it spoken? You haven't asked for German but I'll tell you anyway ;-) It's sopken "15ter Mai" and written "15.5.2000". >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e You're not my type. For that matter, you're not even my species!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 03:38:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA12246 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 03:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000367a5e87b8ddd_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:39:57 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Yes. We must sacrifice at least once piece of old code to the Dynarec god >of translation, otherwise we're cursed with emulation. ;-) But I bet that god won't accept any Microsoft code... >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e If God had intended Man to Smoke, He would have set him on Fire. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 04:04:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA12288 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 04:04:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <391FCDE8.D8268FD9@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:14:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Who does do it in mm/dd/yy? Is it just Americans? > > US/Canada/Mexico/Japan I know first hand. I don't know any country that > speaks "The 15th of May" in English. "May 15th" is said instead, which > corresponds to the date format. We'd normally say "15th of May" in Britain. Actually, we wouldn't normally say that. Normally when someone asks you the date, you'd say "15th". If they say "15th of what though?" then you first wonder where they've been and then say "15th of May". You can still say "May 15th" but... we don't. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 05:58:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA12425 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 05:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <391FCDE8.D8268FD9@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367a7e9489c29_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <391FCDE8.D8268FD9@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:03:21 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >We'd normally say "15th of May" in Britain. That's what I learned at school. But I have to admit that "May 15th" would be a bit shorter than "15th of May" on a webpage. Well, as long as it is clear what is meant I can live with both formats. BTW, do we stick to three letter or full month names? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Crash programs fail because they are based on the theory that, with nine women pregnant, you can get a baby a month. -- Wernher von Braun --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 11:09:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12782 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:14:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification In-Reply-To: <000367a7e9489c29_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > BTW, do we stick to three letter or full month names? Go full month. It's not like we're trying to save space or anything. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 14:12:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13001 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:18:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: <200005150807.KAA02465@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > And a precission: I was wrong, Spain IS a catholic country :p. > All weekend talking about that fucking third secret of Fatima ... What's that? > > I can't argue that it isn't stupid. If I had a choice between not touching > > a "working" system and causing recession or harming an economy, I'd have > > to take the former. > A person is the system? No, you misread this. I never said a person was the system. A working "system" meaning an economy and government that has low unemployment. > > If you run your business honestly and care about the customer, you can > > sleep at night with a clear conscience knowing that many people are happy > > with you and your products. > I think there are a lot of people doesn't need honesty to sleep at night, = > they use the TV. There are, but if someone does something wrong, they know it, and it eats at them in different ways. Most "money men" are really, really miserable people. Think about it - all you do your entire life and waking moments is think about money. > > That's stretching for an analogy - we're hardly talking about slave labor, > > here. The economy in the US works well for damn near everybody. Actually, > > those who don't want to work don't count. > How live the people without working? You mean the ones who don't want to work and WON'T work? Not well, unless they've got a nest egg or a sugar daddy. > > applets. We're not really using it forthings that are horribly > > constructive just yet, but as a new "thing" becomes available, it > > generally is abused and played with until its proper use comes. > As TV. I'm still waiting for a good TV, in fact in Spain is becoming > worst a worst every day. US TV Sucks major ass, too. There are a few bright spots, but to give you an idea, I typically watch old reruns of Star Trek: The Next Generation and the Simpsons. That's about it. > Agreed. Average people will ever do average work. You can't expect everyone > to be a kind life fighter. And "too hard" is a subjective expression. People > are different each other, what for one is easy for other could be really > hard. That's very true, but I've found that a LOT of people are just plain lazy or victims of their own lack ofmotivation or self confidence. > What it is needed is a system that helps everyone find a place where > they feel happy not a system where they have to fight agains everything to > be happy. I think you mean "compete to be happy". > > > You can say what you want but a replicator isn't a sollution. > > I didn't say it was a solution. I said that it'd be the invention that > > actually causes world change in this direction. IT's the start of a "new > > era", as it were. > Of course it's a new era. An area where every idiot will have the power > to destroy worlds. Education first, then the power. If you have first > the power you will have to learn about it and you can harm yourself or > everyone else. They kind of technology you call a replicator has a lot > of dark uses. And many, many bright ones. Wars between countries are over either commodities or religion. The replicator eliminates the need for commodities, and now all we've got to do is flush religion. > > There's a big difference between a material object's invention and a deity > > that no one can conclusively prove even exists. ;-) > Your replicator seems a little about the anti-entropic machine and that > is against all we still know about the nature laws. The amounts of > energy needed are very far from what we have now. It's against what we know *NOW*. I don't believe that we actually have bounds. > > For now it is. 30 Years ago, 25MHZ microprocessors were a fantasy. They've > > long since surpassed reality. > I'm reading Science Fiction since I was child, and I don't mean StarWars > books but serious SF. So I think I know a bit about future expeculations. No, you know about some writer's view of what's going to happen. It was said that the microchip wouldn't be invented. Manned flight would never occur. We'd never go to the moon. Etc... there are so many countless examples of this kind of limited short sightedness based on *TODAY'S* knowledge that those kinds of views should be squelched for the betterment of mankind's advancements. > I hope the best from the science in next years, from Computers, Genetics > and Enginery. But we can't work hoping that technology will be the > solution of all our problems. I never said this. Where did you get that idea? But technology is absolutely an eventual solution to our problems - maybe not directly, but it sure can become a cataylst for exactly that. Ending world hunger won't happen without some sort of technological revolution. > > I just don't understand dim views of the future. If everyone would stop > > believeing that we actually have limits to what we can do, we'd be so much > > farther along in society and technologically. > There are limits. We are far away of them but there are a lot of limits in > the universe. Universe itself is limited. Do you think eternal life, for > example, is a real chance? Could it exist? Sure! If we figure out why regenerative sequences of the body break down over the years. Why would you think that it's impossible? > Our universe, until we know something new, is > limited and will end. All things from stars to living beings will end > someday. What stops people to go farther is the fear for the unknown. Which kinda sounds like what you're advocating... > following their desires. Buda, Aristoteles, Platon and others good > phylosophers were against the fullfishness of all desires. For ages > there has been people with all their MATERIAL desires fulfilled, this > makes them better or more happy than a peasant. I don't think so. It depends upon the people. You can be materially rich but morally bankrupt. ;-) > And a thought: we don't need a replicator just a real VR (virtual reality) > technology. Everyone plugged in a fake world that fullfill their desires. > Or a drug that makes everyone happy without danger for health, these are > more easy than a replicator. Interested in that kind of wolrds?. Hell! > I'm still being pessimistic. Yes, you are, and those are plausible solutions that will eventually come - in time. The replicator is a far off example of what is to come, but it'll be here in a few hundred years. It'll be interesting to see someone digging through these archives then to see what kinds of stuff we were thinking about. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 23:21:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13450 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3920E8A3.E8783C63@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:20:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Even though it's horribly off topic, I feel like you guys are sorta my > drinking buddies. ;-) I know what you mean. Scary, isn't it? Even though we're all in different countries with different native languages, it's very cool how we can all talk like this. I kinda feel the same. :) > Periodically, I do a tcpdump to watch what packets are going where on the > dialup lines to make sure I don't have any orphaned links. Bah, you just want to watch people browsing for porn (and nicking their passwords)! ;) > I actually believed him! It's a frightening thing to think my dad is in to > fisting (or worse yet, gerbilling). ;-) That's called "felching". Hang on, why do I know that? Why?! AARGH! Anyway, I'd also believe him. Although I was going to tease you mercilessly about it, I'm not sure what I could actually tease you about. But yes, I've seen this sort of thing happen before. Never on my machine because I run through a proxy program which removes code to open up new browser windows (it's basically for adverts). But (and especially at Uni!) I've seen it happen in various places. It's amusing. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 23:21:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13456 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3920E8EA.97EEFC30@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:21:30 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Calling us 'fucking Englishman' or 'stupid fuckers' is no problem at all. > > Confusing us with the French, though? This means war! > > No, no, no... you've got it wrong. ;-) Someone said "Englishmen" and I > just rolled with it, when later on my brain engaged and realized that all > my anger was directed toward the FRENCH and not the English! I actually > realized what I was saying - never to confuse the English and the French! Argh! Calling us French! Argh! Can you even *BE* more insulting? ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 23:27:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13472 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3920EA62.C05CE5E8@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:27:46 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Hey, if you're buying... ;) > > Sure... I don't drink, but hey? Why not! So... who was it advocating the beer from micro-breweries? ;) > > I walked in > > on mine having sex when I was five, and, although I didn't even realise what > > they were doing at the time, it's scared me for life! > > Nobody's parents ever had sex. Ever. Just remember that. That's true. I was brought by the stork because my parents never had sex. Ever. > > led to him frantically trying to flick the channel over with our dodgy, > > semi-working remote control. We had another telly in an out of the way room, > > but he never seemed to suss that it would be easier to watch it on that... > > Well, at least you weren't doing a warm apple pie. ;-) Eugh! "There was this one time, at band camp, I put a flute up...". Er, if you've seen "American Pie" then you'll know what I was about to write next. If you haven't seen it, use your imagination. Or go watch it. :) > > When you become a parent you're supposed to forego all pleasures of the > > flesh, aren't you? Got any plans that way yet, Neil? ;) > > As a matter of fact, the Mrs. went off the funny little round white pills > a few weeks ago, so yes. In a couple of months now, we're going to be > shooting for (no pun intended) a few kids. 3 Total. ;-) Remember, you've got to have at least one boy. If you've got 3 children and they're all girls, you're hopelessly outnumbered and you stand no chance. Ever. In anything. Any part of decision making that you once had will disappear out the window... :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 23:29:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13482 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3920EAF5.A6CCBE3D@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:30:13 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Web site modification References: <003b01bfbe47$93ff49c0$88dc48c2@icc.co.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Yes. We must sacrifice at least once piece of old code to the Dynarec god > > of translation, otherwise we're cursed with emulation. ;-) > > And lo, the prophet has spoken. Henceforth all peoples will strain to > maximise their nipple size, for so it is written in the Book of Bazookas. Can I pass on that one? :) > You could start a cult with a page like that. Although if people have to maximise their nipple size you may not get too many followers... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 23:31:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13496 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:37:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies In-Reply-To: <3920E8A3.E8783C63@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Even though it's horribly off topic, I feel like you guys are sorta my > > drinking buddies. ;-) > I know what you mean. Scary, isn't it? Even though we're all in different > countries with different native languages, it's very cool how we can all > talk like this. I kinda feel the same. :) If you guys come to the states, you're definitely invited over for a party or two. I know a couple of classic arcades in the area that'd really hit the spot. > > Periodically, I do a tcpdump to watch what packets are going where on the > > dialup lines to make sure I don't have any orphaned links. > Bah, you just want to watch people browsing for porn (and nicking their > passwords)! ;) Yeah, I'm sick, aren't I? It's like reading about people masturbating to porn! ;-) > > I actually believed him! It's a frightening thing to think my dad is in to > > fisting (or worse yet, gerbilling). ;-) > That's called "felching". Hang on, why do I know that? Why?! AARGH! No, no, no... felching is when you suck... uh... wait... uh... yeah... uh... I don't know what felching is... no, I don't... what were we talking about? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 23:32:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13506 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3920EBB1.5F373C26@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:33:21 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies References: <000367a5dba7b7b1_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Drinking over the internet is always a bit dry, don't you think so? > But I guess if we all lived in the same country or even on the same continent > we would have already stormed some pubs together ;-) That's true. :) > You have to be very silent on the internet not to get such mails from time to > time... That's also true. > Damn JavaScript! I know why I like NetPositive ;-) But you can turn it off in IE and Netscape. You don't even have that option with NetPositive. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 15 23:33:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13515 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:39:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies In-Reply-To: <3920EA62.C05CE5E8@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > Hey, if you're buying... ;) > > Sure... I don't drink, but hey? Why not! > So... who was it advocating the beer from micro-breweries? ;) Me! ;-) But I *USED* to drink... Too much in fact. Bleugh. > > > but he never seemed to suss that it would be easier to watch it on that... > > Well, at least you weren't doing a warm apple pie. ;-) > Eugh! > "There was this one time, at band camp, I put a flute up...". Er, if you've > seen "American Pie" then you'll know what I was about to write next. If you > haven't seen it, use your imagination. Or go watch it. :) I've got the DVD of it. > > As a matter of fact, the Mrs. went off the funny little round white pills > > a few weeks ago, so yes. In a couple of months now, we're going to be > > shooting for (no pun intended) a few kids. 3 Total. ;-) > Remember, you've got to have at least one boy. If you've got 3 children and > they're all girls, you're hopelessly outnumbered and you stand no chance. Yes - estrogen overload. Lord forbid if their periods all come at the same time. ;-( > Ever. In anything. Any part of decision making that you once had will > disappear out the window... :o Yeah. I know. I just need to make sure we do it doggy style. That increases the chances of a boy, ya know! ;-) ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 00:09:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA13553 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3920F467.D5B98CAE@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:10:31 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > If you guys come to the states, you're definitely invited over for a party > or two. I know a couple of classic arcades in the area that'd really hit > the spot. Cool! Mind you, that's the sort of offer that you could come to regret making... ;) The same goes for you if you come over to the UK. The problem would be that I don't actually know of any classic arcades anywhere around me (they're all modern!) but I'm sure there's something... > > Bah, you just want to watch people browsing for porn (and nicking their > > passwords)! ;) > > Yeah, I'm sick, aren't I? It's like reading about people masturbating to > porn! ;-) Well... ooh, I think I'll stop thinking about that one. :) > > That's called "felching". Hang on, why do I know that? Why?! AARGH! > > No, no, no... felching is when you suck... uh... wait... uh... yeah... > uh... I don't know what felching is... no, I don't... what were we talking > about? No idea, I'm denying all knowledge of these e-mails. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 00:45:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA13591 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:45:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3920FCB1.DAD35744@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:45:53 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > So... who was it advocating the beer from micro-breweries? ;) > > Me! ;-) But I *USED* to drink... Too much in fact. Bleugh. Ah, okay. I'll let you off in that case. ;) > > "There was this one time, at band camp, I put a flute up...". Er, if you've > > seen "American Pie" then you'll know what I was about to write next. If you > > haven't seen it, use your imagination. Or go watch it. :) > > I've got the DVD of it. So have I. And I just bought "Dogma" the other day. Man, that's one of the funniest films I've seen in a while. If you're anti-religion you *have* to watch that film. > > Remember, you've got to have at least one boy. If you've got 3 children and > > they're all girls, you're hopelessly outnumbered and you stand no chance. > > Yes - estrogen overload. Lord forbid if their periods all come at the same > time. ;-( My god, that's when you hit the arcades - and stay there. For that week. :) > > Ever. In anything. Any part of decision making that you once had will > > disappear out the window... :o > > Yeah. I know. I just need to make sure we do it doggy style. That > increases the chances of a boy, ya know! ;-) ;-) That's just a bloody good excuse to do it that way. The other one I've heard is doing it either standing up or her on top also increases the chances of a boy. It's a complete lie, but it's fun trying. You'll have to get the Kama Sutra and go through the positions saying "This'll help for a boy" or "This'll help for a girl". It's a good excuse, no? ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 02:31:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA13841 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 02:31:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3920EBB1.5F373C26@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367b916543fd3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000367a5dba7b7b1_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3920EBB1.5F373C26@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:32:51 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >But you can turn it off in IE and Netscape. You don't even have that option >with NetPositive. ;) That's why you cannot forget to turn it off ;-) I have Opera just in case I need JavaShit... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away". -- Philip K. Dick --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 02:31:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA13850 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 02:31:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3920F467.D5B98CAE@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367b921bc8c47_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <3920F467.D5B98CAE@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:36:02 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> If you guys come to the states, you're definitely invited over for a party >> or two. I know a couple of classic arcades in the area that'd really hit >> the spot. >Cool! Mind you, that's the sort of offer that you could come to regret >making... ;) Hehehe ;-) How about booking some seats on a plane to Portland, Oregon? ;-) >The same goes for you if you come over to the UK. And you also have a place to stop when you visit Germany. >The problem would be that >I don't actually know of any classic arcades anywhere around me (they're >all modern!) but I'm sure there's something... I have to admit that I'm not that into arcades, but there are some... >No idea, I'm denying all knowledge of these e-mails. :) What emails? ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Pedaeration, n.: The perfect body heat achieved by having one leg under the sheet and one hanging off the edge of the bed. -- Rich Hall, "Sniglets" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 06:13:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA14114 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 06:13:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005161319.PAA29503@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 15, 2000 02:18:09 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:19:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > And a precission: I was wrong, Spain IS a catholic country :p. > > All weekend talking about that fucking third secret of Fatima ... > > What's that? > Haven't hear anything? Lucky you are. It seems that the virgin Maria (Jesus mother) appeared to three children in Fatima (Portugal) some time ago, seventy or eighty years ago. She talked three secrets or prophecies to them. The first two where already complished and told to everyone (I don't know what they are and I don't care), but the third was still unknow (only know by the Pope and other church leaders). This weekend was the aniversary of that and the Pope revealed the last prophecy. It seems that talked about the attack -more than ten years ago- against the Pope. But as I really don't care I haven't pay attention to it. What happens is that as the government media are controlled now controlled by the conservature party they talk too much about the Pope and the Church. And all the weekend they have been talking about that prophecy. > There are, but if someone does something wrong, they know it, and it eats > at them in different ways. Most "money men" are really, really miserable > people. Think about it - all you do your entire life and waking moments is > think about money. > As I don't like them and I'm very different I can't understand how they think. > US TV Sucks major ass, too. There are a few bright spots, but to give you > an idea, I typically watch old reruns of Star Trek: The Next Generation > and the Simpsons. That's about it. > Neither I saw the TV usually. Mainly movies and, emmm ..., children cartoon series (how are they called in english, I mean in Spanish are something as "moving draws" or "moving pictures", but sure it isn't the english name) ... if they are japanese, I love japanese comics (Manga), it's a kind of addiction. I also watch SF series but now there isn't any. > > And many, many bright ones. Wars between countries are over either > commodities or religion. The replicator eliminates the need for > commodities, and now all we've got to do is flush religion. > Flush religion is still a problem, it won't be so easy. I mean, religion is like a bad cold, very hard to heal from it. ;) > > It's against what we know *NOW*. I don't believe that we actually have > bounds. > Wanna discuss about the infinite? And interesting term. Can humans really understand the concept of infinite? Meaning of course unlimited infinites, there are limited infinites, as a sphere: try to find an end walking on it. > > No, you know about some writer's view of what's going to happen. It was > said that the microchip wouldn't be invented. Manned flight would never > occur. We'd never go to the moon. Etc... there are so many countless > examples of this kind of limited short sightedness based on *TODAY'S* > knowledge that those kinds of views should be squelched for the betterment > of mankind's advancements. > You can't tell my beloved SF authors as being short sightedness!!! ;) Well, they are also limited but there are enough of them that makes interesting speculations. And some speculate about future, very different, kinds of societies. > > I never said this. Where did you get that idea? But technology is > absolutely an eventual solution to our problems - maybe not directly, but > it sure can become a cataylst for exactly that. Ending world hunger won't > happen without some sort of technological revolution. > Why not? There are other solutions for world hunger. The population could be limited (a good thing I think), or the food better shared, I mean, in Europe time by time food is thrown away because they are too excedents and the prices becomes too low. > Could it exist? Sure! If we figure out why regenerative sequences of the > body break down over the years. Why would you think that it's impossible? > Not in THAT universe, you will have to create a new one, change to another dimension/universe or create a machine that works against the entropy. Nothing in actual science helps us in that. Perhaps are other ways though. And I'm not sure that the human brain/intelligence can accept or understand REAL eternal life. What will you do ETERNALLY. This is a really interesting topic. > > It depends upon the people. You can be materially rich but morally > bankrupt. ;-) > And it happens usually. ;) > > Yes, you are, and those are plausible solutions that will eventually come > - in time. The replicator is a far off example of what is to come, but > it'll be here in a few hundred years. It'll be interesting to see someone > digging through these archives then to see what kinds of stuff we were > thinking about. ;-) > It's hard to dig on digital electric information. Will you keep all our mails hidden somewhere? ;) Computer data is easily copied but it's also easily erased or destroyed, just turn off your computer. Think about all those future guys reading our mails. What they will think about me! I should be more polite. ;)) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 06:55:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA14167 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 06:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005161357.PAA28235@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies In-Reply-To: <000367b921bc8c47_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at May 16, 2000 11:36:02 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:57:17 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >The same goes for you if you come over to the UK. > > And you also have a place to stop when you visit Germany. > I don't recommend you to come Spain in Summer. It's too hot. ;) Hawai is a far better choice. > >The problem would be that > >I don't actually know of any classic arcades anywhere around me (they're > >all modern!) but I'm sure there's something... > > I have to admit that I'm not that into arcades, but there are some... > And you won't find many classic arcades here. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 07:05:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA14191 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39214976.DCA1304F@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:13:26 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies References: <3920F467.D5B98CAE@eurocopter.de> <000367b921bc8c47_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Hehehe ;-) > How about booking some seats on a plane to Portland, Oregon? ;-) I have no idea where that is. I suspect that's where NB lives, but that still doesn't change the fact that I don't know where it is. I'll be in the US next year, though it'll be to NY - my cousin has moved there and will be getting married next year. I'll also be heading over to California at some point to meet a few friends I've made over the years, I'm sure. :) > >The problem would be that > >I don't actually know of any classic arcades anywhere around me (they're > >all modern!) but I'm sure there's something... > > I have to admit that I'm not that into arcades, but there are some... You don't like arcade games?! Infidel! Infidel! ;) I take it that you like dynarec techniques to emulate computers more than arcade games? I don't mind, I like both. But there are some games I'd like to play again - dynarec makes it possible... :) > >No idea, I'm denying all knowledge of these e-mails. :) > > What emails? ;-) I don't know. Why do you ask? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 10:10:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA14391 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Tonight's funnies From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39214976.DCA1304F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367bf7a1d02b4_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <3920F467.D5B98CAE@eurocopter.de> <000367b921bc8c47_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39214976.DCA1304F@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:10:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I have no idea where that is. I suspect that's where NB lives, but that >still doesn't change the fact that I don't know where it is. Western coast of the US. >I'll be in the US next year, though it'll be to NY I think there is a Portland near NY. Just look at about the same hight on the other side of the US and you'll find Portland in Oregon. > - my cousin has moved there and will be getting married next year. Poor fool ;-) >I'll also be heading over to >California at some point to meet a few friends I've made over the years, >I'm sure. :) Well, Neil lives a tiny little bit more Northern... >You don't like arcade games?! I didn't say that! I lost much money when playing Final Fight and T2 Judgment Day! >Infidel! Infidel! ;) In-what? >I take it that you like dynarec techniques to emulate computers more than >arcade games? Guessed right. Maybe consoles too... >I don't know. Why do you ask? ;) Which question? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think they'll hate you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 15:02:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14723 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 15:02:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002f01bfbf8b$05c63b60$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005161319.PAA29503@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Crusoe Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:03:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Neither I saw the TV usually. Mainly movies and, emmm ..., children > cartoon series (how are they called in english, I mean in Spanish are > something as "moving draws" or "moving pictures", but sure it isn't the > english name) ... if they are japanese, I love japanese comics (Manga), it's > a kind of addiction. I also watch SF series but now there isn't any. You probably mean "animations". The term for manga style cartoons is "Anime" but then a fan of that style will say that Anime is British only. So, you probably want to use "animation". :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Tue May 16 23:57:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA15182 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 23:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <016f01bfbfcd$6bb3a740$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor Moya del Barrio" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Crusoe Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:59:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Hi, > > >> Neither I saw the TV usually. Mainly movies and, emmm ..., children >> cartoon series (how are they called in english, I mean in Spanish are >> something as "moving draws" or "moving pictures", but sure it isn't the >> english name) ... if they are japanese, I love japanese comics (Manga), >it's >> a kind of addiction. I also watch SF series but now there isn't any. > >You probably mean "animations". The term for manga style cartoons is "Anime" >but then a fan of that style will say that Anime is British only. So, you >probably want to use "animation". :) > Later I realised that the name was animations. It is just my memory. I was sure I should know the word, but I couldn't remember it. Bad, bad memory. :( And Anime is the name used all around for manga cartoons, I don´t know the japanese name but I think they use also anime. Japanase use a lot of english terms, for example bed. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 03:26:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA17058 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 03:25:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3923C27B.9E637A54@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:14:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, Okay, we've got a website now. We've got an index page which is looking pretty good right now (hehe, I'm sooooo modest!). What else should we add to the site before we announce it? Some content would be nice, I'm sure, but what features do we want to include before it is announced? Also, is there anything else we can think of for the site? Anything? Come on, we're all meant to be of genius status (or do I mean mad?) to be interested in dynamic recompilation. ;) Send your answers on a postcard to... ooh, sorry, wrong letter. Reply to the list. Via e-mail. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 05:10:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA17187 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 05:10:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005181208.OAA17225@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <3923C27B.9E637A54@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 18, 2000 12:14:19 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:08:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > Okay, we've got a website now. We've got an index page which is looking > pretty good right now (hehe, I'm sooooo modest!). What else should we add > to the site before we announce it? Some content would be nice, I'm sure, > but what features do we want to include before it is announced? > Content ;) It's annoising to see each link points to nowhere. But I'm not good about web design. > Also, is there anything else we can think of for the site? Anything? Come > on, we're all meant to be of genius status (or do I mean mad?) to be > interested in dynamic recompilation. ;) > A page against Crusoe, a dynarec tutorial (don't expect anything from me until SI end though ;), ... > Send your answers on a postcard to... ooh, sorry, wrong letter. Reply to > the list. Via e-mail. :) > We can also use smoke signals ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 05:23:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA17207 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 05:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3923E0B1.62669073@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:23:13 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: <200005181208.OAA17225@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Okay, we've got a website now. We've got an index page which is looking > > pretty good right now (hehe, I'm sooooo modest!). What else should we add > > to the site before we announce it? Some content would be nice, I'm sure, > > but what features do we want to include before it is announced? > > Content ;) It's annoising to see each link points to nowhere. But I'm > not good about web design. Hey, I designed it. I'm not doing all the content by myself as well! ;) > > Also, is there anything else we can think of for the site? Anything? Come > > on, we're all meant to be of genius status (or do I mean mad?) to be > > interested in dynamic recompilation. ;) > > A page against Crusoe, a dynarec tutorial (don't expect anything from me > until SI end though ;), ... Ah. A new link to add. "Crusoe hateage (although if you give me one for free - especially one with a Savage /MX - then I won't complain!)". :)) > > Send your answers on a postcard to... ooh, sorry, wrong letter. Reply to > > the list. Via e-mail. :) > > > We can also use smoke signals ;) Ah, but I'm in the middle of one of these 24hr thunder/rain storms at the moment. So I wouldn't see the signals. Sorry! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 05:32:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA17230 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 05:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005181238.OAA29098@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <3923E0B1.62669073@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 18, 2000 02:23:13 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:38:54 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > > Content ;) It's annoising to see each link points to nowhere. But I'm > > not good about web design. > > Hey, I designed it. I'm not doing all the content by myself as well! ;) > Why not? You are not getting enough pay ;) > > A page against Crusoe, a dynarec tutorial (don't expect anything from me > > until SI end though ;), ... > > Ah. A new link to add. "Crusoe hateage (although if you give me one for > free - especially one with a Savage /MX - then I won't complain!)". :)) > Of course it will be for testing purposes only ;) What about also a full documentation about the Code Morpher. ;) > > We can also use smoke signals ;) > > Ah, but I'm in the middle of one of these 24hr thunder/rain storms at the > moment. So I wouldn't see the signals. Sorry! :o > Lucky you are! I actually like rain. Here we start with a really hot wet day and now seems is getting cold. What a crazy wheather. Anyway, we can use light morse signals. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 05:49:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA17255 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 05:49:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3923E6C9.1C185011@eurocopter.de> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:49:13 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: <200005181238.OAA29098@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Hey, I designed it. I'm not doing all the content by myself as well! ;) > > > Why not? You are not getting enough pay ;) I'll never get enough pay until I leave Uni... :) > > Ah. A new link to add. "Crusoe hateage (although if you give me one for > > free - especially one with a Savage /MX - then I won't complain!)". :)) > > > Of course it will be for testing purposes only ;) Of course! I wouldn't be playing 3D games on it no matter where I am. And if the power usage is really as low as they make out, it could be interesting. The most interesting thing about it, though, is the speed. With no benchmarks out, all we have is PR stunts. Like "Look, we have Linus Torvalds on board!" - that totally impressed me. Lots. I was very impressed by that. I don't care about how good the CPU is - Linus Torvalds is involved! :)) > What about also a full documentation about the Code Morpher. ;) Reverse engineering? Me? Never! ;) > > Ah, but I'm in the middle of one of these 24hr thunder/rain storms at the > > moment. So I wouldn't see the signals. Sorry! :o > > > Lucky you are! I actually like rain. Here we start with a really hot wet day > and now seems is getting cold. What a crazy wheather. It's actually quite cool here - about 15 degrees centigrade. Considering it's been ~30 or so for the past two weeks it's quite nice. :) > Anyway, we can use light morse signals. ;) If we can find a piece of land flat enough - and a powerful enough telescope... ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 06:02:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17282 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 06:02:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005181308.PAA04378@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <3923E6C9.1C185011@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 18, 2000 02:49:13 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:08:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > Ah. A new link to add. "Crusoe hateage (although if you give me one for > > > free - especially one with a Savage /MX - then I won't complain!)". :)) > > > > > Of course it will be for testing purposes only ;) > > Of course! I wouldn't be playing 3D games on it no matter where I am. And > if the power usage is really as low as they make out, it could be > interesting. > I can't see anyone who want the Crusoe for playing, I mean, who will be want to play everywhere Final Fantasy VIII or Quake for example, you have your Gameboy for that. ;) > The most interesting thing about it, though, is the speed. With no > benchmarks out, all we have is PR stunts. Like "Look, we have Linus > Torvalds on board!" - that totally impressed me. Lots. I was very impressed > by that. I don't care about how good the CPU is - Linus Torvalds is > involved! :)) > Well they wrote a full document about "a new methodology for benchmarking code morpher software", and they also have a document about the benchmark they have made with some applications (mainly video and sound decompression). I haven't read it though. It smells like bad marketing publicy. Linus Torvaldis? Who is that man? I never heared about it, did you? ;) > > What about also a full documentation about the Code Morpher. ;) > > Reverse engineering? Me? Never! ;) > Perhaps you prefer to use your new ninja skills ;) > > Anyway, we can use light morse signals. ;) > > If we can find a piece of land flat enough - and a powerful enough > telescope... ;) > We can use mirror satellites and laser beams. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 15:29:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA17908 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 15:28:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3923C27B.9E637A54@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367ec24562c2a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <3923C27B.9E637A54@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:27:29 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Okay, we've got a website now. We've got an index page which is looking >pretty good right now (hehe, I'm sooooo modest!). I didn't expect anything less ;-) >What else should we add to the site before we announce it? Much much more, but I'm afraid we're all too busy to gather so much content in such a short time. >Some content would be nice, I'm sure, >but what features do we want to include before it is announced? More basic info. I guess it would be nice if the DRFAQ was finished, but that'll take some time... >Also, is there anything else we can think of for the site? Anything? Come >on, we're all meant to be of genius status (or do I mean mad?) to be >interested in dynamic recompilation. ;) I guess both is equally true, but it seems that currently I'm the mad-only state... >Send your answers on a postcard to... ooh, sorry, wrong letter. Reply to >the list. Via e-mail. :) Haven't you heard of pigeons in England? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "This is lemma 1.1. We start a new chapter so the numbers all go back to one." -- Prof. Seager, C&O 351 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 15:29:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA17913 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 15:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200005181308.PAA04378@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <000367ec2e355b8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005181308.PAA04378@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:30:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Perhaps you prefer to use your new ninja skills ;) I guess you mix up jiu-jitsu and ninjitsu ;-) >We can use mirror satellites and laser beams. ;) I thought SDI was cancelled ;-) >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 15:30:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA17918 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 15:29:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3923E6C9.1C185011@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367ec38fe89e4_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005181238.OAA29098@pons.ac.upc.es> <3923E6C9.1C185011@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:33:16 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >The most interesting thing about it, though, is the speed. With no >benchmarks out, all we have is PR stunts. Like "Look, we have Linus >Torvalds on board!" - that totally impressed me. Lots. I was very impressed >by that. I don't care about how good the CPU is - Linus Torvalds is >involved! :)) No comment on that, but take a look at the following page ;-) http://bedope.com/stories/0082.html >Neil. -- M.I.K.e WARNING TO ALL PERSONNEL: Firings will continue until morale improves. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 23:41:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA18289 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 23:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3924E16A.220778F3@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:38:34 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: <3923C27B.9E637A54@eurocopter.de> <000367ec24562c2a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >Okay, we've got a website now. We've got an index page which is looking > >pretty good right now (hehe, I'm sooooo modest!). > > I didn't expect anything less ;-) Good. I am British after all. We're all modest there. Aren't we, Andy? [I really must finish replying to the e-mail Andy sent me about 3 or 4 weeks ago!] > >What else should we add to the site before we announce it? > > Much much more, but I'm afraid we're all too busy to gather so much content > in such a short time. Yep, this is what I thought. I've been asked to do some things on the other site too and so I think this weekend will be busy. Still, I'm getting some Spanish guys to cook something authentically Spanish for me on Sunday so it won't be all bad. Of course, there's another side to that deal - they want two computers fixing. :) That's something Victor, I don't think I've mentioned that I'm friends with a Spanish guy here. I was going to get him to write an e-mail in Spanish to you and say "Look! I can speak Spanish!" but I realised that it would backfire as soon as you replied - so I didn't. :)) > >Some content would be nice, I'm sure, > >but what features do we want to include before it is announced? > > More basic info. I guess it would be nice if the DRFAQ was finished, but > that'll take some time... Of course. But any FAQ will always be WIP when it covers a subject such as this. Whenever you think it's reasonable would be a good time to do it... > >Also, is there anything else we can think of for the site? Anything? Come > >on, we're all meant to be of genius status (or do I mean mad?) to be > >interested in dynamic recompilation. ;) > > I guess both is equally true, but it seems that currently I'm the mad-only > state... I'm completely mad - and that's what's scary. Amusing story (well, it is to me): Before I came over here, I had a friend who wanted to take an IQ test. So he got in touch with MENSA (an international clever clogs type organisation) and got them to send two IQ test forms - one for him and one for me. We sent them off about the week before Christmas and we both got replies the week that I was leaving to come out here. His score? 117. My score? 144 (trust me to get a squared number!). In the UK, any score between 100 and 115 is average intelligence. Anything over 120 is classed as "genius". So... I'm a genius am I? Bah, what a load of crap. :) Still, it's something to claim over Americans. The average IQ over there is between 90 and 100. But that's okay, Neil - your parents are from Britain, so you've got the British intelligence. ;) No, I reckon IQ ratings are a waste of time. All they show is that you CAN solve certain puzzles. But you could have the most intelligent human alive take the test - but if he didn't know how to solve alegbraic problems (for example) then he could still get a low score. So, it's not something I feel proud and smug about. It's something I laugh about everytime I do something stupid. Genius. Haha! :)) > >Send your answers on a postcard to... ooh, sorry, wrong letter. Reply to > >the list. Via e-mail. :) > > Haven't you heard of pigeons in England? Yes, but we eat them. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Thu May 18 23:59:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA18308 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 2000 23:59:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <002801bfc15f$e9a63120$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor Moya del Barrio" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:00:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> >What else should we add to the site before we announce it? >> >> Much much more, but I'm afraid we're all too busy to gather so much content >> in such a short time. > >Yep, this is what I thought. I've been asked to do some things on the other >site too and so I think this weekend will be busy. Still, I'm getting some >Spanish guys to cook something authentically Spanish for me on Sunday so it >won't be all bad. Of course, there's another side to that deal - they want >two computers fixing. :) > Spanish omelette? Paella? ;) >That's something Victor, I don't think I've mentioned that I'm friends with >a Spanish guy here. I was going to get him to write an e-mail in Spanish to >you and say "Look! I can speak Spanish!" but I realised that it would >backfire as soon as you replied - so I didn't. :)) > You are always trying to tease. ;) >> >Also, is there anything else we can think of for the site? Anything? Come >> >on, we're all meant to be of genius status (or do I mean mad?) to be >> >interested in dynamic recompilation. ;) >> >> I guess both is equally true, but it seems that currently I'm the mad-only >> state... > >I'm completely mad - and that's what's scary. Amusing story (well, it is to >me): > Spend time trying to emulate old machines is really a mad idea. ;) More if you think we work for free. >Before I came over here, I had a friend who wanted to take an IQ test. So >he got in touch with MENSA (an international clever clogs type >organisation) and got them to send two IQ test forms - one for him and one >for me. We sent them off about the week before Christmas and we both got >replies the week that I was leaving to come out here. His score? 117. My >score? 144 (trust me to get a squared number!). In the UK, any score >between 100 and 115 is average intelligence. Anything over 120 is classed >as "genius". > Well, I never made such a test, but I made when I was a child one in a scientist magazine. I get around 140 or so. But I really don´t care. ;) >So... I'm a genius am I? Bah, what a load of crap. :) > I am. I am. ;) Or perhaps not. :( In any case it was a bit frustating to get ever the better notes at school times, I mean, it was boring. >No, I reckon IQ ratings are a waste of time. All they show is that you CAN >solve certain puzzles. But you could have the most intelligent human alive >take the test - but if he didn't know how to solve alegbraic problems (for >example) then he could still get a low score. > Indeed. Now the expert seems to work with something they call emotional intelligence. In fact there are multiple forms of intelligence, each it should be mesured separated. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 00:40:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA18358 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 00:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3924EFA5.CE29E32C@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:39:17 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: <002801bfc15f$e9a63120$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >Yep, this is what I thought. I've been asked to do some things on the other > >site too and so I think this weekend will be busy. Still, I'm getting some > >Spanish guys to cook something authentically Spanish for me on Sunday so it > >won't be all bad. Of course, there's another side to that deal - they want > >two computers fixing. :) > > > Spanish omelette? Paella? ;) I'm not sure - but it almost certainly involves fish. Paella was mentioned so probably that... > You are always trying to tease. ;) Yes, that's true. ;) > >I'm completely mad - and that's what's scary. Amusing story (well, it is to > >me): > > > Spend time trying to emulate old machines is really a mad idea. ;) More if > you think we work for free. Yep, true. But I've never tried to pretend that I'm not mad - that's something. :) > Well, I never made such a test, but I made when I was a child one in a > scientist > magazine. I get around 140 or so. But I really don´t care. ;) Neither do I. And it's not really something to shout about either. But it is something to laugh about. :) "You are in the top 2% of the world with an IQ between 140 and 170". And what? :) > In any case it was a bit frustating to get ever the better notes at school > times, I mean, it was boring. To be fair I could have done a lot better at school. I always did well - I only did really well in the things I liked (Maths, Science, English and - of course - IT). I was lazy (I still am!) and would only do the minimum. Having said that, all of my results are good. It's just that they could have been better if I'd have tried harder... > Indeed. Now the expert seems to work with something they call > emotional intelligence. In fact there are multiple forms of intelligence, > each it should be mesured separated. I disagree - you shouldn't measure it at all. You should measure a human on what they've done and their potential - not how well they can solve a problem. Well, okay, maybe in special cases would it be useful... No, I don't like it. Not for a job. Nope... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 00:50:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA18376 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 00:50:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:56:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <3924E16A.220778F3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > >Okay, we've got a website now. We've got an index page which is looking > > >pretty good right now (hehe, I'm sooooo modest!). > > I didn't expect anything less ;-) > Good. I am British after all. We're all modest there. Aren't we, Andy? Nah. You just think you're better than everyone. ;-) Oh wait, that's the French... ;-) > > in such a short time. > Yep, this is what I thought. I've been asked to do some things on the other > site too and so I think this weekend will be busy. Still, I'm getting some > Spanish guys to cook something authentically Spanish for me on Sunday so it > won't be all bad. Of course, there's another side to that deal - they want > two computers fixing. :) I'm in the process of: * Rewiring my studio (and it's really hard work that takes days) * Repairing two pinball machine boards for a friend who owns an arcade * Trying to figure out what I'm going to do with my brand new playfield for my Black Knight 2000 pinball machine now that I fucked it up trying to remove the mylar So I'm quite busy right now. ;-( > Before I came over here, I had a friend who wanted to take an IQ test. So > he got in touch with MENSA (an international clever clogs type MENSA=My Ego Needs Some Attention > Still, it's something to claim over Americans. The average IQ over there is > between 90 and 100. Uh... that's not quite right. It's 105-115. Though admittedly, dipshits tend to congregate together - meaning the southeastern US - especially in the redneck woods. They're dumb as toaster strudel. Just listening to their "accents" sucks my IQ down like a black hole. You'll find a disproportionate set of very smart people on the west coast. > But that's okay, Neil - your parents are from Britain, > so you've got the British intelligence. ;) Yeah, but I'm not stupid enough to drink warm beer. ;-) > No, I reckon IQ ratings are a waste of time. All they show is that you CAN > solve certain puzzles. But you could have the most intelligent human alive > take the test - but if he didn't know how to solve alegbraic problems (for > example) then he could still get a low score. It's a way to figure one's intelligence in the ball park. Knowledge without intelligence is useless unless you're taking tests. I've got a friend who has a little intelligence and a lot of book knowledge, but doesn't know how to apply it. I'm just the opposite. I did shitty in school and never read books (too boring), but I can figure anything out. > So, it's not something I feel proud and smug about. It's something I laugh > about everytime I do something stupid. Genius. Haha! :)) Nod. FWIW, Got 150 when I took it in college. Doesn't mean much. > > Haven't you heard of pigeons in England? > Yes, but we eat them. ;) I think your average IQ is lower than you claim it. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 00:58:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA18389 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 00:58:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005190804.KAA18106@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <3924EFA5.CE29E32C@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 19, 2000 09:39:17 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:04:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Spanish omelette? Paella? ;) > > I'm not sure - but it almost certainly involves fish. Paella was mentioned > so probably that... > You have to taste the Spanish (or potatoes) omelette. > > In any case it was a bit frustating to get ever the better notes at school > > times, I mean, it was boring. > > To be fair I could have done a lot better at school. I always did well - I > only did really well in the things I liked (Maths, Science, English and - > of course - IT). I was lazy (I still am!) and would only do the minimum. > Having said that, all of my results are good. It's just that they could > have been better if I'd have tried harder... > It's better I don't tell you how I prepared my university access exam. ;) Well, for sure I didn't studied enough because I was playing to Might and Magic IV and V. But it was because I didn't need so much note for study Computer Science. I got worse notes than usual but I also get a lot of fun. :)) > > Indeed. Now the expert seems to work with something they call > > emotional intelligence. In fact there are multiple forms of intelligence, > > each it should be mesured separated. > > I disagree - you shouldn't measure it at all. You should measure a human on > what they've done and their potential - not how well they can solve a > problem. Well, okay, maybe in special cases would it be useful... No, I > don't like it. Not for a job. Nope... > I just wanted to say the actual opinion of the "experts". I don't want to say that the intelligence must be mesured (well, perhaps for politics, but we don't need to mesure their intelligence ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 00:59:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA18400 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 00:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3924E16A.220778F3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367f430d20c22_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <3923C27B.9E637A54@eurocopter.de> <000367ec24562c2a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3924E16A.220778F3@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:03:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Good. I am British after all. We're all modest there. Aren't we, Andy? Isn't that typical for all the British? >Yep, this is what I thought. I've been asked to do some things on the other >site too and so I think this weekend will be busy. Still, I'm getting some >Spanish guys to cook something authentically Spanish for me on Sunday so it >won't be all bad. Of course, there's another side to that deal - they want >two computers fixing. :) Yeah, that's the typical trade-off when you're into computers... >That's something Victor, I don't think I've mentioned that I'm friends with >a Spanish guy here. I was going to get him to write an e-mail in Spanish to >you and say "Look! I can speak Spanish!" but I realised that it would >backfire as soon as you replied - so I didn't. :)) He, you could have replied: "Although I can speak Spanish I have no ability to understand it!" ;-) >Of course. But any FAQ will always be WIP when it covers a subject such as >this. Whenever you think it's reasonable would be a good time to do it... Sure it will be ever evolving, but currently it's still a bit empty. >I'm completely mad - and that's what's scary. I'm too, I just hesitate to admit it ;-) >So... I'm a genius am I? Bah, what a load of crap. :) Must have been a madman who told you that! ;-) >No, I reckon IQ ratings are a waste of time. All they show is that you CAN >solve certain puzzles. But you could have the most intelligent human alive >take the test - but if he didn't know how to solve alegbraic problems (for >example) then he could still get a low score. Indeed, that's what I always tell. Those tests cover only specific problems and therefore cannot reflect "intelligence" but the ability to solve such problems. Also if you can train these problems then it has nothing to do with intelligence as well. >> Haven't you heard of pigeons in England? >Yes, but we eat them. ;) Hey, you've just eaten my messenger! >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Individualists unite! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 01:13:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18428 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 01:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3924F782.AFEB5F1D@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:12:50 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Good. I am British after all. We're all modest there. Aren't we, Andy? > > Nah. You just think you're better than everyone. ;-) Oh wait, that's the > French... ;-) That's true. But there's one thing. All the Europeans *know* they're better than the US. ;) > > Yep, this is what I thought. I've been asked to do some things on the other > > site too and so I think this weekend will be busy. Still, I'm getting some > > Spanish guys to cook something authentically Spanish for me on Sunday so it > > won't be all bad. Of course, there's another side to that deal - they want > > two computers fixing. :) > > I'm in the process of: > > * Rewiring my studio (and it's really hard work that takes days) Agreed. Rewiring meaning the electricity or all of the cable for speakers etc? > * Trying to figure out what I'm going to do with my brand new playfield > for my Black Knight 2000 pinball machine now that I fucked it up trying > to remove the mylar Damn! :o I quite like pinball - I'm quite glad it's popular over here. More so than in the UK for sure. I've had a few games. Mind you, things like 10 pin bowling and Pool are *really* expensive over here unless you have a large amount of people... > So I'm quite busy right now. ;-( I can imagine... :o > > Before I came over here, I had a friend who wanted to take an IQ test. So > > he got in touch with MENSA (an international clever clogs type > > MENSA=My Ego Needs Some Attention I agree. I was asked to join but I can't see it being anything other than useless. > > Still, it's something to claim over Americans. The average IQ over there is > > between 90 and 100. > > Uh... that's not quite right. It's 105-115. Though admittedly, dipshits > tend to congregate together - meaning the southeastern US - especially in > the redneck woods. They're dumb as toaster strudel. Just listening to > their "accents" sucks my IQ down like a black hole. Hmm, didn't read that. It's not so important. In fact... it's not important - at all. And I know what you mean about the accents. I think the same. :) > You'll find a disproportionate set of very smart people on the west coast. California way and that sort of area? > > But that's okay, Neil - your parents are from Britain, > > so you've got the British intelligence. ;) > > Yeah, but I'm not stupid enough to drink warm beer. ;-) Neither are we! I'm not sure where you got that idea from. The only warm beer I know of is the sort that you have sitting outside in the garden and it gets warm from the heat of the sun. Which, admittedly, doesn't happen too often in the UK. :)) > It's a way to figure one's intelligence in the ball park. Knowledge > without intelligence is useless unless you're taking tests. I've got a > friend who has a little intelligence and a lot of book knowledge, but > doesn't know how to apply it. I'm just the opposite. I did shitty in > school and never read books (too boring), but I can figure anything out. I've read a lot of books because I enjoy it (though I find that I don't have time to do it anymore) but I can still generally work things out quite easily. I'm definitely a person for trial-and-error techniques. > > So, it's not something I feel proud and smug about. It's something I laugh > > about everytime I do something stupid. Genius. Haha! :)) > > Nod. FWIW, Got 150 when I took it in college. Doesn't mean much. No. I hate these sort of things actually. I mentioned before that I read a lot. Well, I always have done. And when I was 10 or 11 I had some sort of child IQ test type thing in school (everyone did). Apparently I had the reading ability and problem solving ability of an 18 year old (which, to be honest, doesn't say a lot!) - so they wanted to take me to a "special" school for "advanced" children. I refused to go. I know that I wouldn't have gone because I've never felt that ANYBODY should be treated "specially" - and besides that, at the age of 10 (or so) - I wouldn't have wanted to leave home and my friends (which I'd have had to do had I gone). > > > Haven't you heard of pigeons in England? > > Yes, but we eat them. ;) > > I think your average IQ is lower than you claim it. ;-) They taste nice! Especially the ones with chewing gum stuck to their feet! ;)) Ooh, that thought makes me sick. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 01:26:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18447 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 01:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005190832.KAA26446@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <3924F782.AFEB5F1D@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 19, 2000 10:12:50 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:32:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > That's true. But there's one thing. All the Europeans *know* they're better > than the US. ;) > Agreed. ;) > > > Before I came over here, I had a friend who wanted to take an IQ test. So > > > he got in touch with MENSA (an international clever clogs type > > > > MENSA=My Ego Needs Some Attention > > I agree. I was asked to join but I can't see it being anything other than > useless. > They also came to my university one year ago and I ignored them. It must be a kind of association of people who think they are better than others (and without reasons). > > You'll find a disproportionate set of very smart people on the west coast. > > California way and that sort of area? > Then they must be all those european and assian who are working for US companies. ;) > > It's a way to figure one's intelligence in the ball park. Knowledge > > without intelligence is useless unless you're taking tests. I've got a > > friend who has a little intelligence and a lot of book knowledge, but > > doesn't know how to apply it. I'm just the opposite. I did shitty in > > school and never read books (too boring), but I can figure anything out. > > I've read a lot of books because I enjoy it (though I find that I don't > have time to do it anymore) but I can still generally work things out quite > easily. I'm definitely a person for trial-and-error techniques. > I have read really a lot of books, most not as useful because I like more fiction but I'm sure I have read hundreds of books. And think that always there is time for reading, for example I read in the metro while I'm travelling to the university. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 01:33:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18464 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 01:33:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:40:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <3924F782.AFEB5F1D@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > * Rewiring my studio (and it's really hard work that takes days) > Agreed. Rewiring meaning the electricity or all of the cable for speakers > etc? Far more than that unfortunately. * Optical cables * Many, many quarter inch analog cables (over a hundred) * Power feeds to each device * MIDI Cables * Mounting devices in a rack If you'd like, I can post pictures of the process. It really sucks! > I quite like pinball - I'm quite glad it's popular over here. More so than > in the UK for sure. I've had a few games. Mind you, things like 10 pin > bowling and Pool are *really* expensive over here unless you have a large > amount of people... I just paid $2500 for a mint Addams Family pin. I've currently got my BK2K (awaiting playfield upgrades), a Star Trek: The NExt Generation, and a Williams Flash. All fun! > > MENSA=My Ego Needs Some Attention > I agree. I was asked to join but I can't see it being anything other than > useless. It also reminds me of mensturation, too, every time I read it. ;-) > Hmm, didn't read that. It's not so important. In fact... it's not important > - at all. And I know what you mean about the accents. I think the same. :) It's funny - cockney accents sound really lame to me, but regular English accents are fine. Though I hasten to say, where I come from we don't have accents. We pronounce things exactly as they are in the dictionary. > > You'll find a disproportionate set of very smart people on the west coast. > California way and that sort of area? Yes - lots of smart people in California (but a lot of greedy ones, too). Oregon is to the north of San Fransisco about 600 miles and south of Seattle by 150 miles. > > > so you've got the British intelligence. ;) > > Yeah, but I'm not stupid enough to drink warm beer. ;-) > Neither are we! I'm not sure where you got that idea from. As an English friend of mine told me (who lives in the states now) "We like our beer at room temperature - not so cold it cracks your teeth!" > I've read a lot of books because I enjoy it (though I find that I don't > have time to do it anymore) but I can still generally work things out quite > easily. I'm definitely a person for trial-and-error techniques. Me too, and it's interesting to look back on experiences my dad and I had while working on any device, machine, or process. Every time we got something new, he'd want me to read the fucking manual cover to cover. My attitude about that is to get my hands dirty. The big problem is when my dad and I were working on cars. Whenever he hit something he couldn't solve, he'd go read the manual, and if the manual didn't provide him a solution, he'd give up. Case in point: I was converting my car from an automatic to a stick. Surprise surprise, the bell housings on the transmissions weren't the same, so my dad folded shop and went upstairs. I looked at the transmissions and noticed that the bell housings were interchangable and were just bolted to the transmission. I swapped them and had it on the car in about 15 minutes, when my dad came down in utter shock to find I had done it. He also wants manuals for computers. He thinks "if I get message A, then B is the problem". He's stunned that I can solve problems for whatever the issue is without picking up a manual or having ever seen the problem before. IT all boils down to how you think. > reading ability and problem solving ability of an 18 year old (which, to be > honest, doesn't say a lot!) - so they wanted to take me to a "special" > school for "advanced" children. I refused to go. I know that I wouldn't They did that here. It was called TAG (Talented and gifted). They eventually stopped the program when the politically correct Nazis came around. "Oh, we can't make people feel *INFERIOR* - everyone's *THE SAME*!" So now school has been dumbed down so much that everyone who is normal or above normal suffers because of the retard who can't add. Makes me mad! > > > > Haven't you heard of pigeons in England? > > > Yes, but we eat them. ;) > > I think your average IQ is lower than you claim it. ;-) > They taste nice! Especially the ones with chewing gum stuck to their feet! > ;)) Pigeon Littles! Don't they serve those at KFC? -) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 02:07:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA18653 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 02:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:06:30 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Agreed. Rewiring meaning the electricity or all of the cable for speakers > > etc? > > Far more than that unfortunately. Oh. > * Optical cables > * Many, many quarter inch analog cables (over a hundred) > * Power feeds to each device > * MIDI Cables > * Mounting devices in a rack > > If you'd like, I can post pictures of the process. It really sucks! Go on, why not? I'm betting it looks remarkably like my room at the moment - I've got no furniture and so all the wires are spread out all over the floor. And seeing that I leave in September, I'm not going to buy furniture either. :) > > I quite like pinball - I'm quite glad it's popular over here. More so than > > in the UK for sure. I've had a few games. Mind you, things like 10 pin > > bowling and Pool are *really* expensive over here unless you have a large > > amount of people... > > I just paid $2500 for a mint Addams Family pin. I've currently got my BK2K > (awaiting playfield upgrades), a Star Trek: The NExt Generation, and a > Williams Flash. All fun! Cool! I've played the Addams Family and ST:TNG one, but not the Williams. Cool! :) > > > MENSA=My Ego Needs Some Attention > > I agree. I was asked to join but I can't see it being anything other than > > useless. > > It also reminds me of mensturation, too, every time I read it. ;-) Hehe! And the people in the organisation have the same mindset as a woman at that time. :)) Ooh, no, that's cruel on women. I take that back. :) > > Hmm, didn't read that. It's not so important. In fact... it's not important > > - at all. And I know what you mean about the accents. I think the same. :) > > It's funny - cockney accents sound really lame to me, but regular English > accents are fine. Though I hasten to say, where I come from we don't have > accents. We pronounce things exactly as they are in the dictionary. Don't worry about it, cockney accents sound really lame to me too. I don't really have an identifiable accent. The best that British people can do is identify that I come from the nothern parts of the country. They certainly can't tell where I come from (the normal accent for my area is one from Liverpool, but I don't have that!). So, we must have the same accent. ;) Actually, I've heard your voice now in one of your MP3s (now I've got some decent speakers - and extremely decent headphones!). It's quite a soft American accent. I wouldn't really be able to identify where in the US, though. I could indentify places it's NOT from though. :) > > California way and that sort of area? > > Yes - lots of smart people in California (but a lot of greedy ones, > too). Oregon is to the north of San Fransisco about 600 miles and south of > Seattle by 150 miles. Ah, okay. I wouldn't know - so I'll believe you. :) > > > Yeah, but I'm not stupid enough to drink warm beer. ;-) > > Neither are we! I'm not sure where you got that idea from. > > As an English friend of mine told me (who lives in the states now) "We > like our beer at room temperature - not so cold it cracks your teeth!" When he said "We" he meant "I". I don't know a single person who likes it that way. I definitely don't! Chilled beer is great! :) I'm more of a cider person though. But the beer over here in Germany is really great... > Every time we got something new, he'd want me to read the fucking manual > cover to cover. My attitude about that is to get my hands dirty. Exactly the same attitude as me. I hardly ever read the manual. I always try things out and see what happens. I built my first computers that way, I always use software that way - it doesn't matter what it is, though, I'll rarely read a manual. Yes, I'll do it sometimes - but if I have to then I get really annoyed. :)) > He also wants manuals for computers. He thinks "if I get message A, then B > is the problem". He's stunned that I can solve problems for whatever the > issue is without picking up a manual or having ever seen the problem > before. IT all boils down to how you think. This is true. I've never had a computer problem I haven't (eventually) been able to solve. We'll see if I can still claim this on Sunday. One of the computers I'm going to try and repair has been looked at by 5 people - one meant to be a network manager for a big company who has built lots of computers. If I can repair it (or at least identify the problem) where they haven't then I can still claim it. I haven't had a problem before though... :) It's scary that we're so similar like this! It must be the name. :)) > > reading ability and problem solving ability of an 18 year old (which, to be > > honest, doesn't say a lot!) - so they wanted to take me to a "special" > > school for "advanced" children. I refused to go. I know that I wouldn't > > They did that here. It was called TAG (Talented and gifted). They > eventually stopped the program when the politically correct Nazis came > around. "Oh, we can't make people feel *INFERIOR* - everyone's *THE > SAME*!" So now school has been dumbed down so much that everyone who is > normal or above normal suffers because of the retard who can't add. Makes > me mad! No, that's not fair. Yes, we still treat people differently here - having groups of people who study more advanced topics in things like Science and Maths - and having groups for people who aren't good at those subjects. You shouldn't ever hold people back for a minority. That's politically incorrectness gone mad! That's inane. > > > I think your average IQ is lower than you claim it. ;-) > > They taste nice! Especially the ones with chewing gum stuck to their feet! > > ;)) > > Pigeon Littles! Don't they serve those at KFC? -) Hehe! Probably. Damn, there's no KFC's over here... Well, 13 in the entire *country* - and none in Munich. ARGH! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 05:23:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA18875 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 05:23:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:11:42 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I'm more of a cider person though. But the beer over here in Germany is >really great... Good for you that you admit that ;-) BTW, the Bergkirchweih (the 245th, therefore the oldes beer festival of the world AFAIK) will be in Erlangen from the 8th to the 19th of June. Maybe you're interested: http://www.der-berg-ruft.de/ >This is true. I've never had a computer problem I haven't (eventually) been >able to solve. We'll see if I can still claim this on Sunday. One of the >computers I'm going to try and repair has been looked at by 5 people - one >meant to be a network manager for a big company who has built lots of >computers. If I can repair it (or at least identify the problem) where they >haven't then I can still claim it. I haven't had a problem before though... >:) Hmm, my Asus P2B died about 3 months after I bought it, but it took some time till I could identify it to be the cause of the problems I had with my PCI cards... >Hehe! Probably. Damn, there's no KFC's over here... Well, 13 in the entire >*country* - and none in Munich. ARGH! :o KFC? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e According to my best recollection, I don't remember. -- Vincent "Jimmy Blue Eyes" Alo --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 05:38:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA18905 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 05:38:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:36:19 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >I'm more of a cider person though. But the beer over here in Germany is > >really great... > > Good for you that you admit that ;-) Is it? ;) > BTW, the Bergkirchweih (the 245th, therefore the oldes beer festival of the > world AFAIK) will be in Erlangen from the 8th to the 19th of June. Maybe > you're interested: > http://www.der-berg-ruft.de/ Sounds interesting. :) > Hmm, my Asus P2B died about 3 months after I bought it, but it took some time > till I could identify it to be the cause of the problems I had with my PCI > cards... Asus P2B eh? So... you weren't thinking of overclocking were you? :o > >Hehe! Probably. Damn, there's no KFC's over here... Well, 13 in the entire > >*country* - and none in Munich. ARGH! :o > > KFC? Kentucky Fried Chicken. Think along the lines of McDonalds or Burger King - but it's actually nice. Oh, and usually related to chicken. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 07:23:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA19026 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 07:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:38:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> Good for you that you admit that ;-) >Is it? ;) Yes, good for your health ;-) >> http://www.der-berg-ruft.de/ >Sounds interesting. :) So if you want to visit it and need a place for the night I'm sure I could arrange that ;-) >Asus P2B eh? So... you weren't thinking of overclocking were you? :o Certainly not! The one I got for exchange runs very fine. >Kentucky Fried Chicken. Think along the lines of McDonalds or Burger King - >but it's actually nice. Heard of it. In a German comedy show they had a running gag "Kentucky schreit ficken" ;-) >Oh, and usually related to chicken. :) Really? But if you want pigeons you can also get them in Erlangen. Sometimes I think we have even more than Venice! >Neil. -- M.I.K.e A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election. -- Bill Vaughan --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 08:00:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19080 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 08:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:00:39 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >> http://www.der-berg-ruft.de/ > >Sounds interesting. :) > > So if you want to visit it and need a place for the night I'm sure I could > arrange that ;-) That may be an offer I may take you up on... ;) > >Asus P2B eh? So... you weren't thinking of overclocking were you? :o > > Certainly not! The one I got for exchange runs very fine. Ah, okay - it just seems that every person I know with a P2B uses it to overclock (because it can all be done from the BIOS setup screen). > >Kentucky Fried Chicken. Think along the lines of McDonalds or Burger King - > >but it's actually nice. > > Heard of it. In a German comedy show they had a running gag "Kentucky schreit > ficken" ;-) Er... I can't translate that. "Kentucky screamed..." Ooh, don't know. You've got me there! > >Oh, and usually related to chicken. :) > > Really? But if you want pigeons you can also get them in Erlangen. Sometimes > I think we have even more than Venice! I think Venice would be hard pushed to have as many as London. Mind you, they've been disappearing from London. I seem to remember a ban put on killing them (or removing them from Trafalgar Square) about 2 years ago... :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 08:47:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19138 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 08:47:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:42:39 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >That may be an offer I may take you up on... ;) I thought this could be the right bait to get you going since the last meeting didn't work ;-) >Ah, okay - it just seems that every person I know with a P2B uses it to >overclock (because it can all be done from the BIOS setup screen). I thought that's only Abit and the newer Asus boards. Never noticed anything like that. Maybe I was fiddling around in the wrong part of the BIOS all the time? >Er... I can't translate that. "Kentucky screamed..." Ooh, don't know. >You've got me there! "Kentucky screams fuck." It was just a joke because in those scetches they the always exchanged parts of following words, like "gefickt eingeschädelt" instead of "geschickt eingefädelt". >I think Venice would be hard pushed to have as many as London. Mind you, >they've been disappearing from London. I seem to remember a ban put on >killing them (or removing them from Trafalgar Square) about 2 years ago... >:)) Hehe. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e If they can make penicillin out of moldy bread, they can sure make something out of you. -- Muhammad Ali --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 09:03:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA19167 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 09:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:02:44 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >That may be an offer I may take you up on... ;) > > I thought this could be the right bait to get you going since the last > meeting didn't work ;-) ;p Actually, how about a meeting next weekend? Considering a Wochende ticket costs 35DM all day then I could pay you a visit on Sunday. Then you can decide if it's worth inviting me to the beerfest. ;) > >Ah, okay - it just seems that every person I know with a P2B uses it to > >overclock (because it can all be done from the BIOS setup screen). > > I thought that's only Abit and the newer Asus boards. Never noticed anything > like that. Maybe I was fiddling around in the wrong part of the BIOS all the > time? Wherever you set up your CPU you'll find all sorts of options. Clock speed, bus speed, power - everything you need to overclock. And no jumpers. And I've just seen a post from you in comp.emulators.misc - king_of_pain indeed. ;) Yes, I'm officially bored. I'm at work waiting for my supervisor to get back so I can show him that I've finished my work completely - and then I can go home. Still, I'm getting overtime. But I'm bored. So I'm browsing the newsgroups. No Internet access - but I do have mail and access to ONE newsgroup server... > >Er... I can't translate that. "Kentucky screamed..." Ooh, don't know. > >You've got me there! > > "Kentucky screams fuck." Ah... I wasn't sure if it was perfect (present) tense or past tense. > It was just a joke because in those scetches they the always exchanged parts > of following words, like "gefickt eingeschädelt" instead of "geschickt > eingefädelt". Heh! I would guess that means "Go fuck ..." Bah! Yet another word I don't know! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 10:08:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19247 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 10:08:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:12:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Actually, how about a meeting next weekend? Considering a Wochende ticket >costs 35DM all day then I could pay you a visit on Sunday. Why not? Do you mean 21st or 28th? Although it doesn't make much difference. >Then you can >decide if it's worth inviting me to the beerfest. ;) Inviting? I though you would pay! ;-) >Wherever you set up your CPU you'll find all sorts of options. Clock speed, >bus speed, power - everything you need to overclock. And no jumpers. I have jumpers on my board so I guess you mean a different one. >And I've just seen a post from you in comp.emulators.misc - king_of_pain >indeed. ;) Ahhrg, you've disguised me! Which posting was it? >Yes, I'm officially bored. I'm at work waiting for my supervisor to get >back so I can show him that I've finished my work completely - and then I >can go home. Still, I'm getting overtime. But I'm bored. So I'm browsing >the newsgroups. No Internet access - but I do have mail and access to ONE >newsgroup server... Uh, that's hard indeed! >Ah... I wasn't sure if it was perfect (present) tense or past tense. I thought so. It's even tricky in that case because it's an irregular verb: schreien - schrie - geschrien >> like "gefickt eingeschädelt" instead of "geschickt >> eingefädelt". >Heh! I would guess that means "Go fuck ..." Bah! Yet another word I don't >know! :o "geschickt eingefädelt" means something like "well done", and the other one is hard to translate. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Are you a turtle? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 12:54:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19446 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 12:54:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:01:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Software development Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Remember the argument I was having with the guy who was happy doing things "good enough"? http://www.fastcompany.com/online/06/writestuff.html -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 15:22:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19630 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 15:22:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001701bfc1e9$6dc60d20$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Software development Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:23:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Remember the argument I was having with the guy who was happy doing things > "good enough"? Heh, yes. He never did reply to me did he? :) It's so true though... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 15:27:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19646 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:28:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Why not? Do you mean 21st or 28th? Although it doesn't make much difference. 28th - I've got to fix this computer this weekend. > Inviting? I though you would pay! ;-) I'm not coming! ;p > I have jumpers on my board so I guess you mean a different one. ASUS P2B? You may have jumpers, but it still has the softCPU menu thing. It's known as the "overclockers motherboard". :) >>And I've just seen a post from you in comp.emulators.misc - king_of_pain >>indeed. ;) > >Ahhrg, you've disguised me! Which posting was it? Can't remember now. Oops! >>Heh! I would guess that means "Go fuck ..." Bah! Yet another word I don't >>know! :o > >"geschickt eingefädelt" means something like "well done", and the other one >is hard to translate. I bet. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Fri May 19 15:43:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19677 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 15:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <000368008aabf342_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:47:45 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >28th - I've got to fix this computer this weekend. Oops, forgot about that one :-( I think the 28th should be fine. >> Inviting? I though you would pay! ;-) >I'm not coming! ;p Shit! Who else could donate me a Mass? ;-) >ASUS P2B? You may have jumpers, but it still has the softCPU menu thing. >It's known as the "overclockers motherboard". :) I'll have a look, but I don't think I'll use it because I'm certainly the overclocker type and I heard the BeOS doesn't like overclocking anyway. >>Ahhrg, you've disguised me! Which posting was it? >Can't remember now. Oops! You should take a look at the Be newsgroups. You'll find plenty of my posts there... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e It looks like blind screaming hedonism won out. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Sun May 21 23:40:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA25287 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 21 May 2000 23:40:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005220642.IAA28984@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at May 19, 2000 05:00:39 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:42:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > >Asus P2B eh? So... you weren't thinking of overclocking were you? :o > > > > Certainly not! The one I got for exchange runs very fine. > > Ah, okay - it just seems that every person I know with a P2B uses it to > overclock (because it can all be done from the BIOS setup screen). > Welll I have a P2B and I have a P-II 300 Mhz overclocked to 350 Mhz. But my P2B don't have a BIOS setup screen for overclocking. I made all from jumpers. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 00:09:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA25320 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 00:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <3928DD34.AD79CB98@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:09:40 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> <000368008aabf342_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I think the 28th should be fine. Good, good. :) > >I'm not coming! ;p > > Shit! Who else could donate me a Mass? ;-) Sorry! ;) > >ASUS P2B? You may have jumpers, but it still has the softCPU menu thing. > >It's known as the "overclockers motherboard". :) > > I'll have a look, but I don't think I'll use it because I'm certainly the > overclocker > type and I heard the BeOS doesn't like overclocking anyway. Can't see why BeOS would have more of a problem than anything else. Overclocking isn't a great idea - unless you're a poor student (like I was and will be again in a couple of months). I have a Celeron 300A o/c'ed to 450. Runs like a dream. It was a good deal - but overclocking isn't really for the faint-hearted... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 06:31:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25807 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 06:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3928DD34.AD79CB98@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000368352bb63299_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> <000368008aabf342_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3928DD34.AD79CB98@eurocopter.de> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:35:06 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> I think the 28th should be fine. >Good, good. :) My mother asked why you don't want to come on Saturday, because one day could be a bit short and it would be no problem for us. Since we now use the old room of my sister for guests you'd have your own bathroom and even a kitchen - not that you'd have to use it ;-) >Can't see why BeOS would have more of a problem than anything else. I think they have some timing dependent stuff which might screw up when the processor is faster than the CPUID says. >Overclocking isn't a great idea - unless you're a poor student (like I was >and will be again in a couple of months). I have a Celeron 300A o/c'ed to >450. Runs like a dream. It was a good deal - but overclocking isn't really >for the faint-hearted... Well, someone told me that overclocking can even lead to the simple calculator of Windows producing wrong results ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e It's a very *__UN*lucky week in which to be took dead. -- Churchy La Femme --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 06:32:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25816 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 06:32:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200005220642.IAA28984@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <00036835323aa2b3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005220642.IAA28984@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:36:55 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Welll I have a P2B and I have a P-II 300 Mhz overclocked to 350 Mhz. But >my P2B don't have a BIOS setup screen for overclocking. I made all from >jumpers. I think the newer Asus boards don't need jumpers but the P2B certainly is jumpered. Thanks for supporting me in that point. I was getting worried that Neil might know my board better than I do. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e "Even the best of friends cannot attend each other's funeral." -- Kehlog Albran, "The Profit" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 13:42:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26306 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 13:41:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003701bfc436$cf708880$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200005220642.IAA28984@pons.ac.upc.es> <00036835323aa2b3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:07:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >Welll I have a P2B and I have a P-II 300 Mhz overclocked to 350 Mhz. But > >my P2B don't have a BIOS setup screen for overclocking. I made all from > >jumpers. > > I think the newer Asus boards don't need jumpers but the P2B certainly is > jumpered. > Thanks for supporting me in that point. I was getting worried that Neil might > know my board better than I do. I was thinking "But I built a computer with a P2B board" so I just went to the Asus website. I now know why we're finding this. There's at least 12 motherboards with the name "P2B" in them. :)) http://www.asus.com.tw/products/motherboard/indexnew.html So you both have jumpered ones - but there is at least one board that is jumperless. That's good, I was thinking I was going mad there! Well... getting even worse. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 13:42:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26305 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 13:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Message-ID: <003601bfc436$cdab58e0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> <000368008aabf342_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3928DD34.AD79CB98@eurocopter.de> <000368352bb63299_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:04:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > My mother asked why you don't want to come on Saturday, because one day could > be a bit short and it would be no problem for us. Since we now use the old > room of my sister for guests you'd have your own bathroom and even a kitchen > - not that you'd have to use it ;-) I hadn't thought about it to be honest. Er... it's a cool offer. I just wouldn't want to cause problems - if I'm to come up and stay for the beerfest maybe it could be too much... It's a lot to ask, I wouldn't want to impose. :) I'm not sure if I'm doing anything next Saturday or not. I don't think I am so this could be a possibility. Tell you what, I'll let you know on Wednesday if my Saturday is free. :) My plan on coming up for one day though comes from me being a student - I can buy one Wochendende and go to Nuernburg and back again for 35DM. :) > >Can't see why BeOS would have more of a problem than anything else. > > I think they have some timing dependent stuff which might screw up when the > processor is faster than the CPUID says. CPUID shouldn't have the speed in. At least... I haven't ever noticed it - and I read the CPUID in in things like S3Tweak! But yes, it's possible for timing dependant stuff to screw up - I just haven't found it yet. :) > >Overclocking isn't a great idea - unless you're a poor student (like I was > >and will be again in a couple of months). I have a Celeron 300A o/c'ed to > >450. Runs like a dream. It was a good deal - but overclocking isn't really > >for the faint-hearted... > > Well, someone told me that overclocking can even lead to the simple > calculator of Windows producing wrong results ;-) Yes, but that may not be a side effect of overclocking. ;) I actually have seen Calculator get completely wrong results. There are some buttons to press and if you press them in a certain order then it all goes wrong. Not sure when I saw that though. That could even go back to Windows 3.1 you know. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 15:19:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26431 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 15:18:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <003601bfc436$cdab58e0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <0003683c505ec9ad_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> <000368008aabf342_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3928DD34.AD79CB98@eurocopter.de> <000368352bb63299_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <003601bfc436$cdab58e0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:06:25 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I hadn't thought about it to be honest. Er... it's a cool offer. Cool as the wheather or cool as great? ;-) >I just wouldn't want to cause problems - You don't cause problems... you *are* a problem! ;-) >if I'm to come up and stay for the >beerfest maybe it could be too much... It's a lot to ask, I wouldn't want to >impose. :) Ah, those polite Englishmen! >I'm not sure if I'm doing anything next Saturday or not. I don't think I am >so this could be a possibility. Tell you what, I'll let you know on >Wednesday if my Saturday is free. :) OK, that's a deal. >My plan on coming up for one day though comes from me being a student - I >can buy one Wochendende and go to Nuernburg and back again for 35DM. :) I know, but when you come on Saturday and go back on Sunday it's still the same price ;-) BTW, you have to stay on the train a bit longer because Erlangen is North of Nürnberg. >CPUID shouldn't have the speed in. OK, maybe it's not the CPUID, but I bet that BeOS reads out some encoded value from the CPU to know the speed, because the speed it lists is too exact to be calculated. >But yes, it's possible for >timing dependant stuff to screw up - I just haven't found it yet. :) Run a Soundblaster Live on a P3-700MHz with the bundled drivers and you'll get a blue screen every time you want to play a sound! The newer drivers work... >> Well, someone told me that overclocking can even lead to the simple >> calculator of Windows producing wrong results ;-) >Yes, but that may not be a side effect of overclocking. ;) You mean it's a typical Pentium bug? ;-) >I actually have seen Calculator get completely wrong results. There are some >buttons to press and if you press them in a certain order then it all goes >wrong. Not sure when I saw that though. That could even go back to Windows >3.1 you know. :) How much has the calculator changed since then anyway? ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "I didn't know it was impossible when I did it." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 15:19:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26440 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 15:19:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <003701bfc436$cf708880$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <0003683c582f3d90_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005220642.IAA28984@pons.ac.upc.es> <00036835323aa2b3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <003701bfc436$cf708880$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:08:36 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I was thinking "But I built a computer with a P2B board" so I just went to >the Asus website. I now know why we're finding this. There's at least 12 >motherboards with the name "P2B" in them. :)) Yeah, but I think the main difference is what kind of additional hardware (SCSI, sound, Ethernet) they have. >So you both have jumpered ones - but there is at least one board that is >jumperless. Don't know. Ask Van Halen! ;-) >That's good, I was thinking I was going mad there! Well... I think you are already mad... >getting even worse. :) Is that possible? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "The eleventh commandment was `Thou Shalt Compute' or `Thou Shalt Not Compute' -- I forget which." -- Epigrams in Programming, ACM SIGPLAN Sept. 1982 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 15:24:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26453 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:31:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <003601bfc436$cdab58e0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > >Can't see why BeOS would have more of a problem than anything else. > > I think they have some timing dependent stuff which might screw up when > > processor is faster than the CPUID says. > CPUID shouldn't have the speed in. At least... I haven't ever noticed it - > and I read the CPUID in in things like S3Tweak! But yes, it's possible for > timing dependant stuff to screw up - I just haven't found it yet. :) CPUID Doesn't have the speed in it. > > Well, someone told me that overclocking can even lead to the simple > > calculator of Windows producing wrong results ;-) > Yes, but that may not be a side effect of overclocking. ;) That's a bug in Windows' calculator. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 15:49:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26495 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 15:49:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003683cfe193565_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:55:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >CPUID Doesn't have the speed in it. Is there any other special register which might contain the clock rate? Otherwise Be must have a pretty exact algorithm to calculate it... >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e User n.: A programmer who will believe anything you tell him. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 15:52:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26509 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 15:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:59:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <0003683cfe193565_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >CPUID Doesn't have the speed in it. > Is there any other special register which might contain the clock rate? > Otherwise Be must have a pretty exact algorithm to calculate it... No, there isn't. It's not tough to calculate. You shut off all interrupts (except for a regular interval interrupt like the 18.32ms clock), read the RDTSC at the start of an interrupt, and read the TSC at the start o fthe next interrupt. That'll tell you how many cycles have passed. Divide by a million and you've got your speed. Quite simple! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 16:10:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26549 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 16:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003683d47afb421_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:15:35 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >No, there isn't. It's not tough to calculate. You shut off all interrupts >(except for a regular interval interrupt like the 18.32ms clock), read the >RDTSC at the start of an interrupt, and read the TSC at the start of the >next interrupt. That'll tell you how many cycles have passed. Divide by a >million and you've got your speed. Quite simple! Thanks. Sometimes it can be really useful to have a Intel employee on the list. BTW, what kind of work do you do at Intel, or is that top secret? I guess with that method it's even easier for an OS to calculate the speed than it is for any application since those normally aren't allowed to shut off the interrupts. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Lewis's Law of Travel: The first piece of luggage out of the chute doesn't belong to anyone, ever. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 16:17:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26567 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 16:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:24:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <0003683d47afb421_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > BTW, what kind of work do you do at Intel, or is that top secret? That would've been two years ago (the "top secret" part of things). I was one of the validators on the 450NX chipset (I had nothing to do with 810, 820 or 840 or BX - they were all done in Folsom). I had written a 4 CPU OS that was designed to stress the various facets of the chipset. The 450NX is way solid. So what do I do today? All of Intel's multiprocessor servers have microcontrollers (BMC - Baseboard Micro Controller) that monitor system health, such as power supply health, CPU temperature, fan operation, chassis intrusion, remote operation, and paging. My responsibility is the firmware architecture, network access, and anything else that touches the serial port (panging or remote access). As an example, when a given "event" happens, such as a power supply failure, I page you, via the network or a standard pager. ;-) You would'nt think there's much going on, but consider it's about 700,000 lines of code. ;-) It does a lot! My latest task was writing a UDP/IP driver and the interface code to glue it in to the command subsystem. > I guess with that method it's even easier for an OS to calculate the speed > than it is for any application since those normally aren't allowed to shut > off the interrupts. It's mind-numbingly simple for an OS to calculate the CPU speed - especially if it's a Pentium. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 17:56:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26666 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 17:56:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003683ec0ea631f_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 03:01:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >That would've been two years ago (the "top secret" part of things). I was >one of the validators on the 450NX chipset (I had nothing to do with 810, >820 or 840 or BX - they were all done in Folsom). I had written a 4 CPU OS >that was designed to stress the various facets of the chipset. The 450NX >is way solid. Really not bad! I never wrote an OS and certainly not for a multi- processor... >So what do I do today? All of Intel's multiprocessor servers have >microcontrollers (BMC - Baseboard Micro Controller) that monitor system >health, such as power supply health, CPU temperature, fan operation, >chassis intrusion, remote operation, and paging. My responsibility is the >firmware architecture, network access, and anything else that touches the >serial port (panging or remote access). As an example, when a given >"event" happens, such as a power supply failure, I page you, via the >network or a standard pager. ;-) Cool: "Panic, server is on fire!" ;-) What happens when this BMC has a defect? >You would'nt think there's much going on, but consider it's about 700,000 >lines of code. ;-) Uh, that's much! Is that C or assembly? >It does a lot! My latest task was writing a UDP/IP >driver and the interface code to glue it in to the command subsystem. Sounds like a lot of work... >It's mind-numbingly simple for an OS to calculate the CPU speed - >especially if it's a Pentium. Thanks. I think I again learned something new about the Pentium. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Miksch's Law: If a string has one end, then it has another end. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 22:37:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA26873 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 22:37:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:44:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <0003683ec0ea631f_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >820 or 840 or BX - they were all done in Folsom). I had written a 4 CPU OS > >that was designed to stress the various facets of the chipset. The 450NX > >is way solid. > Really not bad! I never wrote an OS and certainly not for a multi- > processor... It's not that hard once you figure out how to do it. It had paging and the whole shebang, process interlocking, etc... It did some nasty stuff and was capable of generating all kinds of traffic to stress different areas of the chipset. > >So what do I do today? All of Intel's multiprocessor servers have > >microcontrollers (BMC - Baseboard Micro Controller) that monitor system > >health, such as power supply health, CPU temperature, fan operation, > Cool: "Panic, server is on fire!" ;-) > What happens when this BMC has a defect? *SMILE* The board is hosed. Ever wonder why I'm so militant about coding "properly" so there are no bugs in the finished product? We can't have in-field failures of the micro (at least not in the firmware itself). Also if the BMC goes out to lunch, you can't turn power on or off, either, since it does the monitoring of the front panel pushbutton for power, reset, and sleep. > >You would'nt think there's much going on, but consider it's about 700,000 > >lines of code. ;-) > Uh, that's much! Is that C or assembly? 99% C, 1% in assembly. The assembly is mostly bootstrapping and hardware level interface code. > >It does a lot! My latest task was writing a UDP/IP > >driver and the interface code to glue it in to the command subsystem. > Sounds like a lot of work... It's a lot of meticulous work. There's a million things to check, such as checksums, and they have to be done in the proper order. We also have network authentication layers that deal with MD2 hashing and other fun stuff. ;-) If even one byte is off, the packet gets dropped. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Mon May 22 23:08:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26905 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:08:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@synthcom.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@synthcom.com using -f Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:16:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Forgot to mention... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@synthcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Minor brag, but what the hell? I just got my damn near mint The Addams Family pinball machine today. It kicks so much ass! You can imagine what I'll be doing for the next 24-48 hours. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 03:19:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA27291 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 03:19:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Forgot to mention... From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036846704e6dad_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:11:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I just got my damn near mint The Addams Family pinball machine today. It >kicks so much ass! You can imagine what I'll be doing for the next 24-48 >hours. ;-) Have fun ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Prof: So the American government went to IBM to come up with a data encryption standard and they came up with ... Student: EBCDIC!" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 14:22:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28066 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:22:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <003601bfc505$b242e4e0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:17:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > You would'nt think there's much going on, but consider it's about 700,000 > lines of code. ;-) It does a lot! My latest task was writing a UDP/IP > driver and the interface code to glue it in to the command subsystem. That's really impressive! What size is your stub when you've compiled it? I imagine you've got some sort of size limit - very impressive! As for the UDP/IP thing, why did you need to implement that? Is the NX for servers or something and has network capability built in? I imagine I'm right - but then why would you go for UDP - an essentially lossy transfer protocol. I know quite a lot about TCP/IP in general, BTW. My university project last year was an ICS - Internet Client Suite. E-mail, Telnet, Ping, Finger and Whois - all written in Delphi because I was sick when I chose the language. All written from scratch - including everything for TCP/IP. I was extremely gutted to upgrade to Delphi3 and find all the components (or equivalent) that I'd written came with it! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 14:22:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28065 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:22:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <003501bfc505$b1164bc0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:12:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > No, there isn't. It's not tough to calculate. You shut off all interrupts > (except for a regular interval interrupt like the 18.32ms clock), read the > RDTSC at the start of an interrupt, and read the TSC at the start o fthe > next interrupt. That'll tell you how many cycles have passed. Divide by a > million and you've got your speed. Quite simple! And then you do it under Windows, find that you can't (it doesn't work properly), swear a lot - and do something entirely different. And the scary thing is that I can't remember exactly what the solution was either because I did it over a year ago - but it works fine, even now. I think that sometimes it is 1MHz off - but that's pretty good going really. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 14:22:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28068 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:22:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <003701bfc505$b30c4f60$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> <000368008aabf342_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3928DD34.AD79CB98@eurocopter.de> <000368352bb63299_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <003601bfc436$cdab58e0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003683c505ec9ad_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:20:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, >Cool as the wheather or cool as great? ;-) Cool as in... me. ;p >>I just wouldn't want to cause problems - > >You don't cause problems... you *are* a problem! ;-) True, true. And I don't care either. Haha! ;)) >>if I'm to come up and stay for the >>beerfest maybe it could be too much... It's a lot to ask, I wouldn't want to >>impose. :) > >Ah, those polite Englishmen! Where? I don't know any! ;) Seriously, the one thing I won't understand is Germans calling me polite just because I offer to pay for them. I don't know, I'm out with two girls and offer to pay for their Ice Creams - and they wouldn't let me! :o >>I'm not sure if I'm doing anything next Saturday or not. I don't think I am >>so this could be a possibility. Tell you what, I'll let you know on >>Wednesday if my Saturday is free. :) > >OK, that's a deal. That'd be tomorrow wouldn't it? Argh! Okay, I'll have to work on that one! >My plan on coming up for one day though comes from me being a student - I >>can buy one Wochendende and go to Nuernburg and back again for 35DM. :) > >I know, but when you come on Saturday and go back on Sunday it's still the >same price ;-) Yah, but 35DM on *both* days. :) >BTW, you have to stay on the train a bit longer because Erlangen is North of >Nürnberg. I'm sure I've heard of Erlangen as well. It's probably some mad person living there. Who could that be? Ah... ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 14:22:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28069 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <003801bfc505$b418dd60$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Forgot to mention... Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:23:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Minor brag, but what the hell? > > I just got my damn near mint The Addams Family pinball machine today. It > kicks so much ass! You can imagine what I'll be doing for the next 24-48 > hours. ;-) You lucky b@$$t@rd! ;)) I'd buy an arcade machine or pinball machine myself. It's just that there'd be nowhere to put it. So, all in all, that's not such a great plan. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 14:22:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28064 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:22:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <003401bfc505$b01a86a0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:10:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > CPUID shouldn't have the speed in. At least... I haven't ever noticed it - > > and I read the CPUID in in things like S3Tweak! But yes, it's possible for > > timing dependant stuff to screw up - I just haven't found it yet. :) > > CPUID Doesn't have the speed in it. Which is a good thing considering the time I put in to do a pretty good CPU speed thing. You can never get it exactly correct - and have it run on all CPUs. I'd normally use RDTSC but that seems to not work as expected on K6-2s (apparently, I don't have one to see this!). Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 14:33:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28122 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:40:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <003601bfc505$b242e4e0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > You would'nt think there's much going on, but consider it's about 700,000 > > lines of code. ;-) It does a lot! My latest task was writing a UDP/IP > > driver and the interface code to glue it in to the command subsystem. > That's really impressive! What size is your stub when you've compiled it? I > imagine you've got some sort of size limit - very impressive! It's about 140K of code/static data. > As for the UDP/IP thing, why did you need to implement that? Because our micro didn't have UDP/IP capabilities built in. ;-) We're talknig to the onboard ethernet chip over a "service" port designed to do exactly what we're doing (out of band system management). > Is the NX for > servers or something and has network capability built in? What do you mean by "NX"? Each one of our servers has a built in 82559 chip for doing network traffic. > I imagine I'm > right - but then why would you go for UDP - an essentially lossy transfer > protocol. UDP Port 623 is reserved as being an "AUX bus shunt", or in other words, a service port for out of band management. UDP Is about a hundred times easier to implement than TCP/IP, and since these baseboard micros don't have a lot of resources, port 623 was chosen. It's also a limitation of the ethernet chip itself. It only passes us port 623 packets bound for our MAC address. It's an I2C interface (100kbps serial bus) to the ethernet chip so we can't be sniffing each packet as it comes through. On a moderately loaded network, we'd drop all kinds of packets, so the ethernet chip does the discrimination for us. Besides, our serivce data going back and forth doesn't need guaranteed delivery, retransmission, or defragmentation as TCP/IP provides. It's well understood that the client will just retransmit in 2 seconds if it didn't get it the first time. ;-) > I know quite a lot about TCP/IP in general, BTW. My university project last > year was an ICS - Internet Client Suite. E-mail, Telnet, Ping, Finger and > Whois - all written in Delphi because I was sick when I chose the language. You're right. You were sick. I wouldn't use Delphi for anything. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 14:34:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28132 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:41:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <003401bfc505$b01a86a0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Which is a good thing considering the time I put in to do a pretty good CPU > speed thing. You can never get it exactly correct - and have it run on all > CPUs. You can if there's no OS underneath you to get in the way. > I'd normally use RDTSC but that seems to not work as expected on K6-2s > (apparently, I don't have one to see this!). Uh... no, it works correctly on K6/K6-2 and K7s without issue. At least the code that I developed did. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 14:34:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28142 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:42:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <003501bfc505$b1164bc0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > next interrupt. That'll tell you how many cycles have passed. Divide by a > > million and you've got your speed. Quite simple! > And then you do it under Windows, find that you can't (it doesn't work > properly), swear a lot - and do something entirely different. Or round to the nearest known CPU speed. You can't expect to have perfect timing under a preemptive pseudo-realitime OS. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Horror is: A duet with Poison and Michael Bolt- Synthcom Systems, Inc. on, musical composition by Philip Glass, performed by ICQ # 29402898 Kenny G., lyrics by Alanis Morissette --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 23 15:04:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28198 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 2000 15:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <003701bfc505$b30c4f60$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <0003685076337893_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39250416.FCC72418@eurocopter.de> <000367f7a7f1c50b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39253543.6E47ED3F@eurocopter.de> <000367f8dc905d98_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39255717.16A32A1E@eurocopter.de> <000367fa9a574560_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <392565A4.83853F6F@eurocopter.de> <000367fbdcc9fec0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <001801bfc1ea$0b25d500$0100a8c0@lion> <000368008aabf342_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3928DD34.AD79CB98@eurocopter.de> <000368352bb63299_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <003601bfc436$cdab58e0$0100a8c0@lion> <0003683c505ec9ad_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <003701bfc505$b30c4f60$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:08:39 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Cool as in... me. ;p Hey, how can you put "cool" into "me" when "cool" has four letters and "me" only two?? >>You don't cause problems... you *are* a problem! ;-) >True, true. And I don't care either. Haha! ;)) Somehow I expected that reaction... >>Ah, those polite Englishmen! >Where? I don't know any! ;) Just a prejudice... >Seriously, the one thing I won't understand is Germans calling me polite >just because I offer to pay for them. Hey, why don't you want to buy me a Maß then? >I don't know, I'm out with two girls >and offer to pay for their Ice Creams - and they wouldn't let me! :o You should be lucky that you didn't have to pay ;-) But if you want to know the reason, it's what they call "Emanzipation"... >>OK, that's a deal. >That'd be tomorrow wouldn't it? Or on my clock today now ;-) >Argh! Okay, I'll have to work on that one! Oh, such a difficult decision. You're just afraid that I could have enough time for a brainwash ;-) >Yah, but 35DM on *both* days. :) What! You have to pay for both days? Why is it called Wochenende-Ticket then? >I'm sure I've heard of Erlangen as well. Good. We have only one train station anyway... >It's probably some mad person living there. Person? Why are you talking in singular? ;-) >Who could that be? Ah... ;) I don't know... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Actors will happen even in the best-regulated families. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 12:50:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29626 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:37:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > That's really impressive! What size is your stub when you've compiled it? I > > imagine you've got some sort of size limit - very impressive! > > It's about 140K of code/static data. Ooh, that's quite tight! > > As for the UDP/IP thing, why did you need to implement that? > > Because our micro didn't have UDP/IP capabilities built in. ;-) :p > > Is the NX for > > servers or something and has network capability built in? > > What do you mean by "NX"? Each one of our servers has a built in 82559 > chip for doing network traffic. I was under the impression that the NX was a new motherboard chipset. You know - FX, VX, TX, BX and so on... That's where I got that impression. > Besides, our serivce data going back and forth doesn't need guaranteed > delivery, retransmission, or defragmentation as TCP/IP provides. It's well > understood that the client will just retransmit in 2 seconds if it didn't > get it the first time. ;-) Ah, good. Okay, I'm quite used to that sort of thing. :) > > I know quite a lot about TCP/IP in general, BTW. My university project last > > year was an ICS - Internet Client Suite. E-mail, Telnet, Ping, Finger and > > Whois - all written in Delphi because I was sick when I chose the language. > > You're right. You were sick. I wouldn't use Delphi for anything. Although I can now say to new programmers that want to learn a new language to learn Delphi. Give them a couple of days of that and they'll WANT to use another language! Ooh, how I hate it now... Trouble was that I had the choice between C++ Builder (1) and Delphi 3. One could do threading - and one couldn't. But, with hindsight, I should have gone for Builder. Nothing can be worse than Delphi... :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 12:50:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29627 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <004601bfc5c2$13e89480$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:41:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > And then you do it under Windows, find that you can't (it doesn't work > > properly), swear a lot - and do something entirely different. > > Or round to the nearest known CPU speed. You can't expect to have perfect > timing under a preemptive pseudo-realitime OS. Or you could do this: ---------- //=========================[ Routine Declaration ]==========================// // Function: FindCpuSpeed( ) // // Purpose: Calculate the speed of the CPU using the Time Stamp Counter // register. Unfortunately, that means this will only work // on a Pentium or Pentium-clone chip that supports RDTSC. // // Parameters: // dwDuration Number of milliseconds to use for sampling. // In theory, the longer this is, the more accurate // we'll be, but the more chance we'll overflow the // 32-bit counter we're using. // Returns: // Approximate number of machine cycles in a second for this system, // based on a sampling duration of roughly 500 milliseconds. //-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- extern "C" float WINAPI FindCpuSpeed( DWORD dwDuration ) { DWORD dwStartMsec, dwEndMsec; DWORD dwStartTSC, dwEndTSC; DWORD dwDiff, dwMsecs; dwStartMsec = timeGetTime(); // Loop until the time counter actually changes, then start calculation while ( dwStartMsec == timeGetTime() ); dwEndMsec = dwStartMsec = timeGetTime(); /* _asm { mov eax,0 cpuid ; Ensure in-order instruction processing rdtsc mov dwStartTSC,eax } */ // The above _asm block is basically what GetTSC() does. // RDTSC returns a 64-bit number, but we're only using half of it. dwStartTSC = GetTSC(); while (( dwEndMsec - dwStartMsec ) < dwDuration ) { dwEndMsec = timeGetTime(); } dwEndTSC = GetTSC(); dwDiff = dwEndTSC - dwStartTSC; dwMsecs = dwEndMsec - dwStartMsec; // Return number of machine cycles actually counted in // dwMsecs millseconds, rounded up. return( (float) (ceil( ((float) dwDiff ) / ( 1000.0 * (float) dwMsecs ) ) )); } -------- Which generally works quite nicely. I haven't found a CPU where it hasn't worked pretty damn well. I have seen it be out by 1MHz once though... Still, a very nice algorithm that works quite nicely. :) And yes, I *know* that the comments are C++ style even though the code is all in C. I just find it easier to read! This code will probably only work under VC, BTW - but you could always use the ASM that's commented out... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 12:50:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29630 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 12:50:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <004701bfc5c2$14ebfac0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:42:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > I'd normally use RDTSC but that seems to not work as expected on K6-2s > > (apparently, I don't have one to see this!). > > Uh... no, it works correctly on K6/K6-2 and K7s without issue. At least > the code that I developed did. My bad. Got confused. The speed code worked fine - it was the CPUID. AMD return an extended CPUID which caused crashing and all sorts of things when the program didn't actual read the rest of the data. Ah well, that was fixed quite quickly - it's just a pain when you don't have an AMD system to test it on! :o BTW, Neil - how's the pinball machine? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 13:11:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29687 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:11:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002501bfc5bc$a9adb3c0$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:14:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi everyone... > Although I can now say to new programmers that want to learn a new language > to learn Delphi. Give them a couple of days of that and they'll WANT to use > another language! Ooh, how I hate it now... Trouble was that I had the > choice between C++ Builder (1) and Delphi 3. One could do threading - and > one couldn't. But, with hindsight, I should have gone for Builder. Nothing > can be worse than Delphi... :o > > Neil. Oh, I dunno. I used to use Borland Turbo Pascal 4... And you use Ada Neil! (and you looove it) :) Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 13:18:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29709 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <006c01bfc5c5$fdcc0a20$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> <002501bfc5bc$a9adb3c0$0100a8c0@nibble> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:21:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Oh, I dunno. I used to use Borland Turbo Pascal 4... So did I. But they made me. THEY MADE ME! ;) > And you use Ada Neil! (and you looove it) Oh yes. Lots. :-/ Ada takes Pascal and C++. It takes the good bits - and then puts them in the bin. And then it takes what is left - and makes it worse. :-/ And I have to use this piece of crap language *every day*! AARGH! I could go insane before I finish this work placement! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 13:49:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29756 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <00036863515f855a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:38:26 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Although I can now say to new programmers that want to learn a new language >to learn Delphi. Give them a couple of days of that and they'll WANT to use >another language! Ooh, how I hate it now... Trouble was that I had the >choice between C++ Builder (1) and Delphi 3. One could do threading - and >one couldn't. But, with hindsight, I should have gone for Builder. Nothing >can be worse than Delphi... :o I bet you haven't tried Clarion for Windows yet... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Too often I find that the volume of paper expands to fill the available briefcases. -- Governor Jerry Brown --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 14:09:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA29803 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 14:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:17:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > Is the NX for > > > servers or something and has network capability built in? > > What do you mean by "NX"? Each one of our servers has a built in 82559 > > chip for doing network traffic. > I was under the impression that the NX was a new motherboard chipset. You > know - FX, VX, TX, BX and so on... That's where I got that impression. Well, it's the 450NX chipset, but you mentioned it in context of networking, to which the chipset does'nt have networking capabilities built in. > > You're right. You were sick. I wouldn't use Delphi for anything. > Although I can now say to new programmers that want to learn a new language > to learn Delphi. Give them a couple of days of that and they'll WANT to use I tell them learn C. Period. > one couldn't. But, with hindsight, I should have gone for Builder. Nothing > can be worse than Delphi... :o MFC. Visual BASIC. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 14:10:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA29816 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 14:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:18:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <004701bfc5c2$14ebfac0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > BTW, Neil - how's the pinball machine? It kicks major ass! The playfield is absolutely beautiful and everything works/plays exactly as it should. I've got new balls on order because the ones in the game are starting to have rust deposits. I'll post a picture of my mini arcade tonight sometime. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 14:53:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA29889 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 14:53:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <008e01bfc5d3$31521ee0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:52:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Well, it's the 450NX chipset, but you mentioned it in context of > networking, to which the chipset does'nt have networking capabilities > built in. That's okay, I just misunderstood. :) > > Although I can now say to new programmers that want to learn a new language > > to learn Delphi. Give them a couple of days of that and they'll WANT to use > > I tell them learn C. Period. So do I. After that (painful) 8 or 9 months (no, not a pregnancy!) there's no way I'd *ever* advise someone to use Delphi! > > one couldn't. But, with hindsight, I should have gone for Builder. Nothing > > can be worse than Delphi... :o > > MFC. Visual BASIC. Visual BASIC was a no-no because I only had VB3 at the time. Could have used MFC - but I hate it. But I hate it less than Delphi now... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 14:53:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA29899 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 14:53:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <008f01bfc5d3$376069e0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:54:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > It kicks major ass! The playfield is absolutely beautiful and everything > works/plays exactly as it should. I've got new balls on order because > the ones in the game are starting to have rust deposits. You lucky so-and-so... ;) > I'll post a picture of my mini arcade tonight sometime. So we might get to see something other than "BIG TITS!" then? ;)) Not that I'd complain about seeing "BIG TITS!" but... that's a different story! :) Seriously, looking forward to it. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 14:53:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA29904 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 14:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <009001bfc5d3$392d3aa0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> <00036863515f855a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:55:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I bet you haven't tried Clarion for Windows yet... You'd be right - and I've never heard of it before either! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 15:32:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA29977 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 15:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <009001bfc5d3$392d3aa0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <00036864fbae4c91_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> <00036863515f855a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <009001bfc5d3$392d3aa0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:37:38 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> I bet you haven't tried Clarion for Windows yet... >You'd be right - and I've never heard of it before either! It's a 4GL and a strange mixture between Modula-2, Basic, Cobol, and Fortran. Yes, it is as odd as it sounds. For more info see: http://www.topspeed.com/ >Neil. -- M.I.K.e District of Columbia pedestrians who leap over passing autos to escape injury, and then strike the car as they come down, are liable for any damage inflicted on the vehicle. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 21:42:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA30287 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 21:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:49:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Arcade Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I promised photos of my arcade... http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/arcade.jpg -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 24 22:10:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA30324 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 2000 22:10:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002b01bfc5d3$4fad44f0$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: <004501bfc5c2$12f5f720$0100a8c0@lion> <00036863515f855a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <009001bfc5d3$392d3aa0$0100a8c0@lion> <00036864fbae4c91_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:55:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Any of you guys seen REBOL? It looks fantastic, it is a "client side network scripting language"... See if a webpage has updated and mail it to an address - 10 lines of code A webserver(!) - 30 lines of code www.rebol.com Looks a bit wierd though... Made by Carl Sana...th, the guy who developed the famous pre-emptive multitasking in the Amiga. Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 00:49:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA30453 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 00:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:57:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <008f01bfc5d3$376069e0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > It kicks major ass! The playfield is absolutely beautiful and everything > > works/plays exactly as it should. I've got new balls on order because > > the ones in the game are starting to have rust deposits. > You lucky so-and-so... ;) Well, fork out big bucks for it an you can have one, too! ;-) > > I'll post a picture of my mini arcade tonight sometime. > So we might get to see something other than "BIG TITS!" then? ;)) Hey, I like Big tits! > Not that I'd complain about seeing "BIG TITS!" but... that's a different > story! :) > Seriously, looking forward to it. Here they are: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio1.jpg http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio2.jpg http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio3.jpg http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio4.jpg Kinda big, but you get the idea. Still a few things to clean up, like putting the lid on the computer and picking up spools of blank CDs... I sold the other half of my gear (about 2X what you see in the photos) because I couldn't possibly use it all. I started collecting synths in 1993 and it's like a disease. You get one, the house is suddenly filled with them. ;-) But I'm down to just my main few boards now. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 01:54:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA30541 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 01:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005250856.KAA05024@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at May 25, 2000 00:57:53 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:56:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I have read the last version of the DRFAQ and seems it's pointing to subjects I'm actually working on. Well, I'm using a VIP and I'm working in the translation of PowerPC code. I don't like the PowerPC, it has some strange instructions and this people of IBM is a maniac with shift/rotate and masked instructions. The bits in a word are numbered in the wrong way (0 is high, 63 is low). They have the more strange condition registers I have never seen. And I can't make work the translation of the Spec95 099.go!!! I'm frustated. And the worst is I'm building translations from PowerPC and using a Power as test processor, so becomes more difficult. About VIP, the system I'm working is really an static translator (although some problems with Power AIX Shared Libraries perhaps will make it become somekind of dynarec). But for portability, well, it's really portable, we have good translation of Alpha and Mips and somekind of x86, Convex and PowerPc. And the system also works in different systems (mainly alpha and 64 bit architectures) but there is almost ported to linux and 32 bits architectures (another guy is working in this). But it's as slow as hell. Perhaps it isn't thought for speed but I can't see how can be made more efficient. Another part of the system is a kind of dynarec that build translations from the VIP (which is now interpreted) code to native code and perhaps then (I haven't tested it because is still in beta) will be a bit more fast. In fact for being an static translator works well because you don't need a great speed. But a dynarec is designed for speed so a VIP (although is really very simple) perhaps goes against the main purpose of dynarec. The speed of porting the system and building translators for new architectures (we use special tools and description files) is a bit more difficult that the original purpose of the system but still works. This make me thing if really it would be so good to use a VIP for portability, if the things work well, and the VIP and system is well thought perhaps it could work ... But there are a lot of problems that can make it so difficult as building a new dynarec. Victor Moya P.S. Well, I thought it was too much time since I post a mail to the list, and ... ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 08:39:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA31116 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 08:39:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000525104251.007f84f0@mail.ala.net> X-Sender: threerd@mail.ala.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:42:51 -0500 To: dynarec@dynarec.com From: John Syers Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: References: <008f01bfc5d3$376069e0$0100a8c0@lion> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com At 12:57 AM 5/25/00 +0000, you wrote: >> > It kicks major ass! The playfield is absolutely beautiful and everything >> > works/plays exactly as it should. I've got new balls on order because >> > the ones in the game are starting to have rust deposits. >> You lucky so-and-so... ;) > >Well, fork out big bucks for it an you can have one, too! ;-) > >> > I'll post a picture of my mini arcade tonight sometime. >> So we might get to see something other than "BIG TITS!" then? ;)) > >Hey, I like Big tits! > >> Not that I'd complain about seeing "BIG TITS!" but... that's a different >> story! :) >> Seriously, looking forward to it. > >Here they are: > >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio1.jpg >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio2.jpg >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio3.jpg >http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/studio4.jpg > >Kinda big, but you get the idea. Still a few things to clean up, like >putting the lid on the computer and picking up spools of blank CDs... > >I sold the other half of my gear (about 2X what you see in the >photos) because I couldn't possibly use it all. I started collecting >synths in 1993 and it's like a disease. You get one, the house is suddenly >filled with them. ;-) But I'm down to just my main few boards now. So you have a synth room and a pinball room? Your house must be HUGE! I've always wanted to have an arcade room...well now that consoles are so good I can play pretty much arcade quality games on my TV without having a bulky cabinet. But I still want some pins--but I won't have room for those any time soon... Hmm...I thought I'd seen the name Neil Bradley before...how long have you been posting to rec.games.pinball? js 3 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 13:31:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA31448 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 13:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200005250856.KAA05024@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <0003687767e0423a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005250856.KAA05024@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:36:23 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I have read the last version of the DRFAQ and seems it's pointing >to subjects I'm actually working on. Pointing is the right word since it's far from finished... You might have noticed that I moved the zero-register example from the optimisation to the translation section because of your comment. I'm always open to suggestions ;-) >Well, I'm using a VIP and I'm working in the translation of >PowerPC code. Spooky coincidence! >I don't like the PowerPC, Calling it RISC is almost as mad as calling a crow a singing bird... >it has some strange >instructions and this people of IBM is a maniac with shift/rotate >and masked instructions. Ah, you mean "rlwnm" (Rotate Left Word and AND with Mask) - I don't like these either. My favourite is "Enforce In-order Execution of I/O": EIEIO ;-) I think those IBM guys must have been stoned when they wrote down the mnemonics! >The bits in a word are numbered in the >wrong way (0 is high, 63 is low). Correct big-endian numbering. But although PowerPC and 68K are big-endian the latter numbers the bits like a little-endian processor. >They have the more strange condition registers I have never seen. Yeah, the combination of eight 4-bit condition fields and the XER can be a bit confusing, not to forget the branch instructions which test these. I assume that there are about 300 to 400 branch condition combinations! >About VIP, the system I'm working is really an static translator >(although some problems with Power AIX Shared Libraries perhaps >will make it become somekind of dynarec). But for portability, >well, it's really portable, we have good translation of Alpha and >Mips and somekind of x86, Convex and PowerPc. Isn't the Convex from SGI and therefore uses MIPS as well? >And the system >also works in different systems (mainly alpha and 64 bit architectures) >but there is almost ported to linux and 32 bits architectures >(another guy is working in this). But it's as slow as hell. Perhaps >it isn't thought for speed but I can't see how can be made more >efficient. Seems to be quite typical for static binary translators. >Another part of the system is a kind of dynarec that >build translations from the VIP (which is now interpreted) code to >native code and perhaps then (I haven't tested it because is still >in beta) will be a bit more fast. In fact for being an static >translator works well because you don't need a great speed. But >a dynarec is designed for speed so a VIP (although is really very >simple) perhaps goes against the main purpose of dynarec. It might depend on how you handle the VIP. I thought of it as having linked lists of VIP "instructions" just as Neil has linked lists of analysed opcodes. There isn't too much difference. I just (while reading this message) thought of a different method of using a VIP to improve retargetability of a dynarec. The "original" traget layer could be a translator to VIP instructions, which then is transformed into a native code translator by a special VIP-to-native translator prior to runtime. That way you'd get a native code traget layer, which should be hand- optimised before the dynarec is compiled, but you wouldn't have to write the whole target layer manually. >The speed of porting the system and building translators for new >architectures (we use special tools and description files) is a bit >more difficult that the original purpose of the system but still >works. This make me thing if really it would be so good to use >a VIP for portability, if the things work well, and the VIP and >system is well thought perhaps it could work ... But there are a >lot of problems that can make it so difficult as building a new >dynarec. The main problem is how to design the VIP to equally support source translation and target code generation. And you'll notice that, although I liked the idea of having a VIP, I don't have to positive comments on that topic. Even the VIP-to-naive generator has the problem that a very well-designed VIP is needed to fulfill such a task. >Victor Moya >P.S. Well, I thought it was too much time since I post a mail >to the list, and ... ;) And as always your thoughts have been very inspiring! -- M.I.K.e "The Right Honorable Gentleman is indebted to his memory for his jests and to his imagination for his facts." -- Sheridan --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 14:07:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA31514 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 14:07:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <006a01bfc696$01b9a180$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:07:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > You lucky so-and-so... ;) > > Well, fork out big bucks for it an you can have one, too! ;-) Yeah, but I have to earn big bucks first. ;) > > > I'll post a picture of my mini arcade tonight sometime. > > So we might get to see something other than "BIG TITS!" then? ;)) > > Hey, I like Big tits! Well so do I - but we'd best finish this conversation before some woman who reads this gets offended and kills me. :) > I sold the other half of my gear (about 2X what you see in the > photos) because I couldn't possibly use it all. I started collecting > synths in 1993 and it's like a disease. You get one, the house is suddenly > filled with them. ;-) But I'm down to just my main few boards now. Which boards? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 15:52:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA31654 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 15:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <001101bfc69c$5cd89980$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: <200005250856.KAA05024@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003687767e0423a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:55:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >The bits in a word are numbered in the > >wrong way (0 is high, 63 is low). > > Correct big-endian numbering. But although PowerPC and 68K are big-endian the > latter numbers the bits like a little-endian processor. Well, I could be wrong here, but I have always been under the impression that the PowerPC was either little endian or big endian, depending on how you (the operating systems designer) wanted it... ? Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 17:55:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA31775 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 17:55:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <001101bfc69c$5cd89980$0100a8c0@nibble> Message-ID: <0003687b12d1ffe1_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005250856.KAA05024@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003687767e0423a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <001101bfc69c$5cd89980$0100a8c0@nibble> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:58:56 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Well, I could be wrong here, but I have always been under the impression >that the PowerPC was either little endian or big endian, depending on how >you (the operating systems designer) wanted it... ? The PowerPC can operate in both modes like most other RISC processors, but the default mode is big-endian, just like the default mode of the ARM is little-endian. I have to admit that I never heard of a system using a little-endian PowerPC... >Kieron -- M.I.K.e "The climate of Bombay is such that its inhabitants have to live elsewhere." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 23:52:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA32034 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 23:52:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:00:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000525104251.007f84f0@mail.ala.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >I sold the other half of my gear (about 2X what you see in the > >photos) because I couldn't possibly use it all. I started collecting > >synths in 1993 and it's like a disease. You get one, the house is suddenly > >filled with them. ;-) But I'm down to just my main few boards now. > So you have a synth room and a pinball room? Your house must be HUGE! 6 Bedroom house - I occupy 3 rooms, much to the chargin of my wife. ;-) > I've always wanted to have an arcade room...well now that consoles are so > good I can play pretty much arcade quality games on my TV without having a > bulky cabinet. But I still want some pins--but I won't have room for those > any time soon... I really want a basement so I can have a zillion of them. In fact, my wife said that if we buy a house with a basement that I can get more pins! ;-) > Hmm...I thought I'd seen the name Neil Bradley before...how long have you > been posting to rec.games.pinball? Many, many months... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu May 25 23:55:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA32047 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 2000 23:55:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:03:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Okay, idea time. :) In-Reply-To: <006a01bfc696$01b9a180$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > photos) because I couldn't possibly use it all. I started collecting > > synths in 1993 and it's like a disease. You get one, the house is suddenly > > filled with them. ;-) But I'm down to just my main few boards now. > Which boards? You've seen the photo! ;-) Here's the list: Nord Modular Roland JP-8000 Roland Juno 106 Roland D-50 Akai S6000 Emu Vintage Keys + Alesis D4 (drum module) Oberheim Matrix 1000 Oberheim Matrix 12 Oberheim OB-8 And some effects thrown in for good measure. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri May 26 02:01:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA32324 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 02:01:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005260903.LAA13032@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <0003687767e0423a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at May 25, 2000 10:36:23 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:03:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Calling it RISC is almost as mad as calling a crow a singing bird... > Someone is calling it RISC? I think is more CISC than a x86. ;) > >it has some strange > >instructions and this people of IBM is a maniac with shift/rotate > >and masked instructions. > > Ah, you mean "rlwnm" (Rotate Left Word and AND with Mask) - I don't like > these either. It is a knightmare to build the translation. What is the purpose of those intructions? You can use a simple shift operation and later an and. > My favourite is "Enforce In-order Execution of I/O": EIEIO ;-) > I think those IBM guys must have been stoned when they wrote down the > mnemonics! > As we only translate user code I think we haven't emulated it. The mnemonics are really a bit unreadable for a guy who only has worked with x86. > >The bits in a word are numbered in the > >wrong way (0 is high, 63 is low). > > Correct big-endian numbering. But although PowerPC and 68K are big-endian the > latter numbers the bits like a little-endian processor. > I didn't know that, I thought it was only one way of numbering the bits in a word. :o > >They have the more strange condition registers I have never seen. > > Yeah, the combination of eight 4-bit condition fields and the XER can be a > bit confusing, not to forget the branch instructions which test these. I > assume that there are about 300 to 400 branch condition combinations! > > Isn't the Convex from SGI and therefore uses MIPS as well? > Perhaps because I can't find the MIPS related stuff. ;) Well I started only two months ago and I don't know about other architectures than x86 so you will see me making more mistakes like that. ;) > I just (while reading this message) thought of a different method of using a > VIP to improve retargetability of a dynarec. The "original" traget layer > could be a translator to VIP instructions, which then is transformed into a > native code translator by a special VIP-to-native translator prior to > runtime. That way you'd get a native code traget layer, which should be hand- > optimised before the dynarec is compiled, but you wouldn't have to write the > whole target layer manually. > I think I don't understand that. You mean build from a source to VIP translator a source to target translator with somekind of automatic tool? In a normal VIP you make two translations: source code to VIP and VIP to target code. This implies (theorically) a double overhead. The VIP can also be interpreted if you haven't implemented the target layer (as the people of Ardi does). Where are the optimizations done? In the source layer you could do machine independant optimizations, and in the target layer machine dependant optimizations. I think the best VIP could be somelike as a RISC ISA, making it as simple as you can. Mainly all common operations (add,sub,mul, etc), simple load and store instructions and a large number of virtual registers. > > The main problem is how to design the VIP to equally support source > translation and target code generation. And you'll notice that, although I > liked the idea of having a VIP, I don't have to positive comments on that > topic. The problem is ever the overhead of two translations. If the VIP could be handled as an intermediate representation (IR) like in compilers ... Something like a three-address code. The problem is to know if it would be faster or not than an interpreter. The source to VIP layer could work with templates generating a fast non-optimized translation. Perhaps then optimizing the VIP code. In the VIP to target layer you don't use templates but somekind of code analysis to generate good code. I don't know, perhaps this also should be studied. This is the main problems too many question and few answers. ;) > >Victor Moya > > >P.S. Well, I thought it was too much time since I post a mail > >to the list, and ... ;) > > And as always your thoughts have been very inspiring! > Inspiring, really? :) Well, It makes me happy be useful. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri May 26 12:14:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA33035 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 12:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200005260903.LAA13032@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <0003688a7586011a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005260903.LAA13032@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:20:16 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Someone is calling it RISC? I think is more CISC than a x86. ;) According to one author you have to interpret the acronym as "Reduced Instruction Set Complexity" then... >The mnemonics are really a bit unreadable for a guy who only has worked >with x86. I new some RISC processors before and even I had problem in the beginning. Now I know what "subfic" means, but I still don't like those strange rotation instructions. >Well I started only two months ago and I don't know about other architectures >than x86 so you will see me making more mistakes like that. ;) My problem is that I took a look at so many instruction sets that I mix them sometimes... >I think I don't understand that. You mean build from a source to VIP >translator a source to target translator with some kind of automatic tool? Right, although it doesn't have to be a VIP, it could also be some kinf od semantic description. >In a normal VIP you make two translations: source code to VIP and VIP to >target code. This implies (theorically) a double overhead. Agreed. >The VIP can also be interpreted if you haven't implemented the target layer That's the nice side-effect. >(as the people of Ardi does). Actually they use threaded code and not a VIP. They only use Syn68 during compile time. >Where are the optimizations done? In the source layer you could >do machine independant optimizations, and in the target layer machine >dependant optimizations. Yes. >I think the best VIP could be somelike as a RISC >ISA, making it as simple as you can. Mainly all common operations >(add,sub,mul, etc), simple load and store instructions and a large >number of virtual registers. That's what I thought at first. But that way translations from source to VIP can be very complex even for RISC processors, just think of PowerPC or PA- RISC. And without very sophisticated optimisation algorithms the target code will be very sub-optimal. >The problem is ever the overhead of two translations. If the VIP could be >handled as an intermediate representation (IR) like in compilers ... >Something like a three-address code. If I were to ue a VIP it surely would be as IR only! >The problem is to know if it would be faster >or not than an interpreter. Isn't that always the problem? >The source to VIP layer could work with templates generating a fast >non-optimized translation. Perhaps then optimizing the VIP code. In >the VIP to target layer you don't use templates but somekind of >code analysis to generate good code. I don't know, perhaps this also >should be studied. This is the main problems too many question and few >answers. ;) Another problem is that we get too many hiding places for bugs... >Inspiring, really? :) Yes, honestly! >Well, It makes me happy be useful. ;) I still think that you can be very helpful for dynarec.com, even if that only means that you check our theories and ask the right questions! But I bet we can something more productive for you... >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Parsley is gharsley. -- Ogden Nash --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 00:43:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA38828 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 00:42:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005290745.JAA06555@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <0003688a7586011a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at May 26, 2000 09:20:16 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 09:45:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > My problem is that I took a look at so many instruction sets that I mix them > sometimes... > My problem is I don't know enough ;) > That's what I thought at first. But that way translations from source to VIP > can be very complex even for RISC processors, just think of PowerPC or PA- > RISC. And without very sophisticated optimisation algorithms the target code > will be very sub-optimal. > I haven't thought about it so many time as you but I can't agree with making a complex VIP. I think is better to make a simple VIP and handle the problems you would find with it. Making a complex VIP will become in a VIP too complex, difficult to implement and with a lot of other problems, if it has features for all the architectures. And if it has features only for an special architecture it will be architecture dependant and this is against the purpose of using a VIP. I think the best way is to build a VIP as simple as we can but supporting all the usual features of all architectures (a kind of virtual REAL! RISC architecture) and then let the source and target layer handle the problems in the translation. It's sure it will be ever slower than a well-done machine specific dynarec but a complex VIP wouldn't help us with this. > > Another problem is that we get too many hiding places for bugs... > Well another reason for use a simple VIP. And the source layer is reused any port will have to work with the target layer. > >Well, It makes me happy be useful. ;) > > I still think that you can be very helpful for dynarec.com, even if that only > means that you check our theories and ask the right questions! But I bet we > can something more productive for you... > Well, next week I have two final exams so this week and next I won't have time to do nothing. But I will have a lot of time in the next weeks and I plan to start working in my final university project and spend some time working in things related to the dynarec list. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 05:06:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA39211 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 05:06:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200005290745.JAA06555@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <000368c0d42dbe3d_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005290745.JAA06555@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:12:12 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >My problem is I don't know enough ;) This might be the reason why you think that a simple VIP would be good. I thought that too some time ago, but after having studied so many architectures I'm not so sure anymore. >I haven't thought about it so many time as you but I can't agree with making >a complex VIP. A complex VIP is bad as well since no-one would use it. You'd just have too much to implement on the target platform, so nobody would port it. >I think is better to make a simple VIP and handle the >problems you would find with it. Then you end up with a large amount of VIP "code" which might be hard to optimise on the target platform even if source and target processors are identical. >Making a complex VIP will become in a >VIP too complex, difficult to implement and with a lot of other problems, if >it has features for all the architectures. That's why a good compromise would be needed, but I don't think that one person alone can decide on such a compromise. >And if it has features only >for an special architecture it will be architecture dependant and this is >against the purpose of using a VIP. Yeah, but what about BCD instructions? Would you add these? Maybe not, because they aren't that common anymore. But when both processors involved have BCD instructions very bad code would be produced on the host because the VIP would be using workarounds and the target translator couldn't identify these as BCD operations. On the other hand, when you include BCD operations in the VIP then it's harder to port to most newer architectures apart from IA-32 and PA-RISC. This is just one small example and there would be even more questions to decide on... >I think the best way is to build a >VIP as simple as we can but supporting all the usual features of all >architectures (a kind of virtual REAL! RISC architecture) That was my original idea with the goal that a translation with the same processor on both sides via a VIP should lead to the target code being very similar as the source code. It even seems to be possible when you take a look at RISC architecture surveys like the one done by Hennessy and Patterson. But the problem is that those surveys don't cover the exotic stuff and it gets very complicated when you think of some PowerPC instructions, the BCD and other stuff in PA-RISC, the VAX compatibility of Alpha, just to name a few. >and then let the >source and target layer handle the problems in the translation. It's sure >it will be ever slower than a well-done machine specific dynarec but >a complex VIP wouldn't help us with this. I'm not sure if a simple VIP helps... E.g. which logical instructions do you want to include: and, or, not? What about xor, nor, bic, equ, ... ? Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing you. It's just that I was very fond of the VIP idea myself and then ran into a wall of problems. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Never try to outstubborn a cat. -- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 10:58:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA39605 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:07:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <000368c0d42dbe3d_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >My problem is I don't know enough ;) > This might be the reason why you think that a simple VIP would be good. I > thought that too some time ago, but after having studied so many > architectures I'm not so sure anymore. Forgive me... what's a VIP? Virtual Intermediate Processor? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 11:47:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA39670 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 11:47:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000368c6698f895c_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:51:53 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Forgive me... Yeah, I'll forgive you that you haven't read the FAQ yet ;-) >what's a VIP? Virtual Intermediate Processor? But you certainly are very good at guessing! BTW, when we were walking around in Erlangen yesterday Neil told me that he wants to reuse your photo from the Retrocade pages for Dynarec.com and adding the caption: "He's the sane one!" I think that's a great idea ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "The bland leadeth the bland and they both shall fall into the kitsch." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 12:20:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA39719 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 12:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:29:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <000368c6698f895c_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >what's a VIP? Virtual Intermediate Processor? > But you certainly are very good at guessing! Is that really what it is? > BTW, when we were walking around in Erlangen yesterday Neil told me that he > wants to reuse your photo from the Retrocade pages for Dynarec.com and adding > the caption: "He's the sane one!" You might say "He's the most sane of the group!". ;-) I can give you new pictures if you'd like... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 12:30:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA39740 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 12:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000368c70aa90f3f_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:36:56 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> >what's a VIP? Virtual Intermediate Processor? >Is that really what it is? Yes, I came up with that term and acronym some time ago so I might not be an official one. >You might say "He's the most sane of the group!". ;-) I can give you new >pictures if you'd like... Only if these are as ... "exceptional" as the one on Retrocade otherwise the effect wouldn't be the same ;-) I already guessed that you'd like that idea ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 14:23:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA39876 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 14:23:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <005301bfc9bc$eb8108c0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:26:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > BTW, when we were walking around in Erlangen yesterday Neil told me that he > > wants to reuse your photo from the Retrocade pages for Dynarec.com and adding > > the caption: "He's the sane one!" > > You might say "He's the most sane of the group!". ;-) I can give you new > pictures if you'd like... The scary thing is how near you are to what I actually said. I was thinking about the picture from Retrocade and told Mike that I thought I should take that picture, add it to the "About us" section and write (next to the picture) "This is Neil Bradley. He's the sane one from our group." - I can't believe how close you are! :o New pictures might be good. I suppose I should get a good one of me too. It's always good to scare more people. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 14:38:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA39906 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 14:37:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <005301bfc9bc$eb8108c0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <000368c8d05535f7_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <005301bfc9bc$eb8108c0$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:43:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >New pictures might be good. I suppose I should get a good one of me too. >It's always good to scare more people. :)) I think that's true now that I know you in real life ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Hire the morally handicapped. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon May 29 23:14:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA40379 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 2000 23:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39335C7E.F30DF357@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:15:26 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <005301bfc9bc$eb8108c0$0100a8c0@lion> <000368c8d05535f7_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I think that's true now that I know you in real life ;-) Hey! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 30 02:28:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA40689 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 30 May 2000 02:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39335C7E.F30DF357@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000368d294af1b38_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <005301bfc9bc$eb8108c0$0100a8c0@lion> <000368c8d05535f7_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39335C7E.F30DF357@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:22:57 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Hey! ;) So, what did you expect? Oops, I forgot that you train jiu-jitsu now - AHHRG! >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Hacking's just another word for nothing left to kludge. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 30 14:26:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41492 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 30 May 2000 14:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <006701bfca86$7c854380$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <005301bfc9bc$eb8108c0$0100a8c0@lion> <000368c8d05535f7_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39335C7E.F30DF357@eurocopter.de> <000368d294af1b38_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:29:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > So, what did you expect? > Oops, I forgot that you train jiu-jitsu now - AHHRG! Yeah, I've been there tonight. And although I suspected it before, I think tomorrow I'll have the proof that women are more violent than men. My god, I'll have bruises tomorrow. If I can walk... :o Mind you, I now have a date set up to meet two girls, so it was quite a good night really. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue May 30 23:33:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA41950 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005310635.IAA13634@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <000368c0d42dbe3d_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at May 29, 2000 02:12:12 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:35:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >I haven't thought about it so many time as you but I can't agree with making > >a complex VIP. > > A complex VIP is bad as well since no-one would use it. You'd just have too > much to implement on the target platform, so nobody would port it. > Another point against a complex VIP. ;) > >I think is better to make a simple VIP and handle the > >problems you would find with it. > > Then you end up with a large amount of VIP "code" which might be hard to > optimise on the target platform even if source and target processors are > identical. > But a real compiler works that way. An IR isn't a complex VIP. Perhaps we couldn't make so many optimizations than in a real compiler but this ever happens in all dynarec. > >Making a complex VIP will become in a > >VIP too complex, difficult to implement and with a lot of other problems, if > >it has features for all the architectures. > > That's why a good compromise would be needed, but I don't think that one > person alone can decide on such a compromise. > Compromise? Well I think a RISC basic VIP and perhaps a few more very common instructions. But only add instructions that are simple and not add complex instructions. > >And if it has features only > >for an special architecture it will be architecture dependant and this is > >against the purpose of using a VIP. > > Yeah, but what about BCD instructions? Would you add these? Maybe not, > because they aren't that common anymore. But when both processors involved > have BCD instructions very bad code would be produced on the host because the > VIP would be using workarounds and the target translator couldn't identify > these as BCD operations. Well the same problem happens in a common dynarec when translating from Z80 code to x86 code. The Z80 doesn't have a MUL instruction and multiplications are performed with shifts, adds and loops. If you could know that a block of code is a multiplication you could use a x86 MUL instruction, but this is nearly imposible for a common compiler and still harder for a dynarec. You can never produce the better code with a dynarec. And it isn't the purpose of a dynarec. A dynarec translate on the fly native code to target code to provide a fast emulation. > On the other hand, when you include BCD operations in the VIP then it's > harder to port to most newer architectures apart from IA-32 and PA-RISC. > This is just one small example and there would be even more questions to > decide on... > Perhaps a few, but a very few, of special instruction could be added. Only the ones more simple and most common. You can't add a SIMD or MMX kind instruction. > >I think the best way is to build a > >VIP as simple as we can but supporting all the usual features of all > >architectures (a kind of virtual REAL! RISC architecture) > > That was my original idea with the goal that a translation with the same > processor on both sides via a VIP should lead to the target code being very > similar as the source code. It even seems to be possible when you take a look > at RISC architecture surveys like the one done by Hennessy and Patterson. But > the problem is that those surveys don't cover the exotic stuff and it gets > very complicated when you think of some PowerPC instructions, the BCD and > other stuff in PA-RISC, the VAX compatibility of Alpha, just to name a few. > Well. I think in a VIP as an extension of a IR (Intermediate Representation). We have to study what kind of IR there are. Are they really so complex or are they simple? I think we have to follow the way a real compiler analyses the code and builds an IR and produces real code from this IR. In a dynarec perhaps you can't do so many analysis but in fact you don't want that a dynarec produces as good code as a real compiler. > >and then let the > >source and target layer handle the problems in the translation. It's sure > >it will be ever slower than a well-done machine specific dynarec but > >a complex VIP wouldn't help us with this. > > I'm not sure if a simple VIP helps... > E.g. which logical instructions do you want to include: and, or, not? > What about xor, nor, bic, equ, ... ? > Well, the same it has the x86: and, or, not, xor. I think they are the most common. Xor can be implemented with or,and,not and OR can be implemented with and and not, but as I think a lot of CPUs already have those instructions it's silly. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 03:45:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA42319 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 03:45:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200005310635.IAA13634@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <000368e7f02353b3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005310635.IAA13634@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:51:45 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Another point against a complex VIP. ;) Indeed, but it also won't be used when it's too simply and therefore makes the source to VIP translator too complicated... That seems to be a vicious cricle... >But a real compiler works that way. An IR isn't a complex VIP. But compilers don't have to cover things like BCD (at least if it's not Cobol) or have to deal with condition flags in the IR. >Compromise? Well I think a RISC basic VIP and perhaps a few more very >common instructions. But only add instructions that are simple and not add >complex instructions. So what is too complex and what isn't? That's very hard to decide, believe me. >Well the same problem happens in a common dynarec when translating from >Z80 code to x86 code. The Z80 doesn't have a MUL instruction and >multiplications are performed with shifts, adds and loops. If you could >know that a block of code is a multiplication you could use a x86 MUL >instruction, but this is nearly imposible for a common compiler and >still harder for a dynarec. You can never produce the better code >with a dynarec. And it isn't the purpose of a dynarec. A dynarec >translate on the fly native code to target code to provide a fast >emulation. That's actually a different problem. What I mean is when you use DAA in Z80 you won't be able to simply use DAA in x86 since it wouldn't be supported in a simple VIP. Another example: Would you include division or not? I know of at least two architectures which have no interger division at all, Alpha and ARM. If you want to include it, how should it work? Some processors calculate the division result and the remainder at the same time (e.g. MIPS). The PowerPC on the other hand doesn't calculate the remainder and doesn't even have an instruction to do that, so it needs a multiplication and a subtraction to compute the remainder. Some architectures (like PA-RISC, SuperH, TriCore) don't have one division instruction but compute the result in several smaller steps. How to find a common ground for all this? Should the VIP include FP or not? >Perhaps a few, but a very few, of special instruction could be added. Only >the ones more simple and most common. You can't add a SIMD or MMX kind >instruction. The main problem is really where to stop while selecting instructions that should be included... >Well, the same it has the x86: and, or, not, xor. I think they are the >most common. Xor can be implemented with or,and,not and OR can be >implemented >with and and not, but as I think a lot of CPUs already have those >instructions it's silly. I think it's not so silly since you often have combinations of logical instructions in the code and combining them would help to produce better code on the target processor without having to do that with the peephole optimiser. Don't count on x86 having the common list of instructions since it only has two address code. In three address code this can be totally different, e.g. there often is no NOT since it can be done by NOR. Here are the logical instructions in some of the other architectues: * ARM: - and - eor (= xor) - or - bic (= and not) - mvn (= not) * Alpha - and - bis (= or) - xor - bic (= and not) - ornot - eqv (= not xor) * PowerPC - and - andc (= and not) - eqv (= not xor) - nand (= not and) - nor (= not or) - or - orc (= or not, or a goblin ;-) - xor * MIPS - and - or - xor - nor This is quite a long list and apart from some strange instructions of the PowerPC everything else is covered at least twice and there are several which are not available in IA-32... So which should be included and which not? I really *did* some research on that topic... >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Mr. Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 04:47:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA42390 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 04:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <000368e7f02353b3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at May 31, 2000 12:51:45 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:49:22 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >But a real compiler works that way. An IR isn't a complex VIP. > > But compilers don't have to cover things like BCD (at least if it's not > Cobol) or have to deal with condition flags in the IR. > But when they translate from IR to machine code they must work with condition flags and they must decide if using BDC instructions. Perhaps it isn't the best way, but a simple RISC could be understood as a degeneration of the machine code, returning to IR the real compiler made. Well, this is a bit unbeliable ;) > >Compromise? Well I think a RISC basic VIP and perhaps a few more very > >common instructions. But only add instructions that are simple and not add > >complex instructions. > > So what is too complex and what isn't? That's very hard to decide, believe > me. > Too complex are some kind of polynomic instructions I have heared about VAX ;) Well too complex is something than in all common architectures will be too hard to implement. Too hard to implement means, oh, well, ... it doesn't matter ... > > That's actually a different problem. What I mean is when you use DAA in Z80 > you won't be able to simply use DAA in x86 since it wouldn't be supported in > a simple VIP. > Well It's reasonable that when you use a VIP or IR you lose a bit of information. It's inside the nature of a VIP, you have to work with that problem. And I think it isn't so problematic. > Another example: Would you include division or not? I know of at least two > architectures which have no interger division at all, Alpha and ARM. > If you want to include it, how should it work? Some processors calculate the > division result and the remainder at the same time (e.g. MIPS). The PowerPC > on the other hand doesn't calculate the remainder and doesn't even have an > instruction to do that, so it needs a multiplication and a subtraction to > compute the remainder. Some architectures (like PA-RISC, SuperH, TriCore) > don't have one division instruction but compute the result in several smaller > steps. > How to find a common ground for all this? > Minimum common divisor ;) The most similar common choice. What are the most used architectures and what kind of implementation they have. The choice should be the easier to implement for the most common ISAs and perhaps it isn't so hard for all others. > Should the VIP include FP or not? > FP is a real problem because I think there isn't a unique standard for FP representation. Converting between representations could be really expensive. Well if you want to emulate FP you need some FP. And at this stage a lot of CPUs have FP. This remember another problem: big endian vs little endian. You support only one or you sopport both. > >Well, the same it has the x86: and, or, not, xor. I think they are the > >most common. Xor can be implemented with or,and,not and OR can be > >implemented > >with and and not, but as I think a lot of CPUs already have those > >instructions it's silly. > > I think it's not so silly since you often have combinations of logical > instructions in the code and combining them would help to produce better code > on the target processor without having to do that with the peephole > optimiser. But in fact when using a VIP what you are doing is a trade between performance and portability. Try to build a VIP based dynarec as fast as a normal dynarec is impossible. You don't want the best translated code possible but the best you can get manteining portability. > - orc (= or not, or a goblin ;-) It's a goblin the same as an orc? > This is quite a long list and apart from some strange instructions of the > PowerPC everything else is covered at least twice and there are several which > are not available in IA-32... > So which should be included and which not? > I saied: MCD. ;) Perhaps the problem is the kind of VIP you are thinking is too big as a concept to be real. A VIP for ALL the existing ISAs, perhaps it's a good idea but a more practical idea could be a VIP for the ISAs with I will want to working. And of course, in those kind of problems my solution is to make work the VIP to target translator/compiler. If it can't handle all the work it doesn't matter, the translation will be a bit (or a lot) worst, but it is the price for portability. Making the VIP artificially complex is moving the problem from the VIP to target module, where I think it must be handled, and creating new problems in the VIP design (an perhaps without resolving all the problems form the VIP to target module). > I really *did* some research on that topic... > I know, I know :) But the discussion helps me to learn about that topic. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 05:18:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA42438 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 05:18:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <393502F3.2F8A2EBD@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:17:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > - orc (= or not, or a goblin ;-) > It's a goblin the same as an orc? No. Someone with a greater imagination than I may be able to tell you the exact definition of one or the other. But basically, an orc is a big bugger - and a goblin is a small bugger. Er... orc = big thing, goblin = small thing. --- I was going to add more to this topic but I haven't got time at the moment so I've just cut it. Does anyone else think that what you're talking about is remarkably similar to the way in which Java does it? I know that I do. :) > > I really *did* some research on that topic... > > > I know, I know :) But the discussion helps me to learn about that topic. I also did research on this for a research paper I had to write last year - about the JVM. It sounds remarkably similar in fact. It also doesn't sound too different to what the Pentium (and above) processors do when converting CISC -> RISC - but I could be wrong here... Anyway, if you don't hear from me again today then you won't until Monday now. I'm off to Prague at some unholy hour tomorrow morning and I won't be back until Sunday. And you won't be getting any dinner if you don't write a dynarec core by Sunday! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 05:43:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA42476 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 05:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:50:48 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Message-ID: <20000531135047.A815@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <000368e7f02353b3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es>; from Victor Moya del Barrio on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:49:22PM +0200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 01:49:22PM +0200, Victor Moya del Barrio wrote: > > > Should the VIP include FP or not? > > > FP is a real problem because I think there isn't a unique standard > for FP representation. Converting between representations could be > really expensive. Well if you want to emulate FP you need some FP. > And at this stage a lot of CPUs have FP. > This remember another problem: big endian vs little endian. You support > only one or you sopport both. FP - something I know a tiny bit about, for a change! :-) FP is, or at least should be, fairly standard for 'most' processors - the standards in question are IEEE 754 (and 854) iirc. At least the x86 and ARM (software emulated most of the time) both claim to adhere to it to some extent... can't say about other RISC chips. From what I remember of various courses, old IBM mainframes and Cray supercomputers used a different FP representation. I think if I were to rewrite any of my dynarec (which I might, or might not, depends how I feel after exams), I'd change my VIP code slightly. I stuck to mostly simplified versions of ARM instructions (that being my source processor), rewritten as a kind of register transfer language with side-effect information added. I think a cleaner way of doing things might have been to use an explicit predicate buffer a bit like IA-64, and not rely on the implicit ordering of instructions to handle condition codes, etc. As it was, the conversion from source code to intermediate code was fairly easy, that change though would make things slightly more complicated. But I'm supposed to be revising, so I'm not going to think too hard about it... Oh yeah, something else: I was tempted originally to try to keep my intermediate code as simple (few instructions) as possible. That is, rather than having an "add-with-carry" instruction, r0 = adc(r1,r2,carry_flag) split to two instructions like: r0 = add(r1,r2) r0 = add(r0,carry_flag) even though my destination processor had a real ADC instruction. As it turned out I didn't do that and added the ADC instruction to the intermediate code, just because everything was kept simpler that way. Oh yeah, and I couldn't decide what to do with the condition codes set by the original instruction if I split it in half. Maybe that's relevent to what you're doing, I'm not sure... See you, Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 05:52:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA42497 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 05:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <000368e9908a5465_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:48:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >But when they translate from IR to machine code they must work with >condition flags and they must decide if using BDC instructions. But only in translations from IR to target machine code and not from source code to IR, as would be the case in a VIP. >Too complex are some kind of polynomic instructions I have heared about >VAX ;) Well, I don't want to have any Cray-like vector operations as well ;-) >Well It's reasonable that when you use a VIP or IR you lose a bit of >information. It's inside the nature of a VIP, you have to work with that >problem. And I think it isn't so problematic. It would be ok when translating code which only was generated by compilers, but we are not talking about very clean code but emulation of programs hacked by geeks. >Minimum common divisor ;) I think the right term is "smallest common divisor", but I could be wrong. At least I know what you mean. >The most similar common choice. What are the >most used architectures and what kind of implementation they have. The >choice should be the easier to implement for the most common ISAs and perhaps >it isn't so hard for all others. But what is the "smallest common divisor"? The architectures don't even agree which condition flags they should have or if any! I took a look at over a dozen architectures and I haven't found a SCD yet... To be honest, I don't think that a VIP designed by me would have any condition flags at all! >FP is a real problem because I think there isn't a unique standard >for FP representation. Converting between representations could be >really expensive. I think most of the architectures have the IEEE standard now, but since we are nostalgic beings we have to consider the problem of incompatible FP formats as well... Another problem is that the format might be the same but the precision could be different, which sometimes leads to different results as well. >Well if you want to emulate FP you need some FP. >And at this stage a lot of CPUs have FP. That's the problem! And I have to admit that I always skipped the FP chapter in all my books so far, so I still have to do some research on that topic... >This remember another problem: big endian vs little endian. You support >only one or you sopport both. Both of course. Since we both agree on the idea of having a RISC-like VIP we'd have a load/store architecture as well. There surely need to be instructions which specify if the memory access is little- or big-endian. Immediates should be pre-converted anyway. The question is which side should handle the conversions, the source or the target? Also the arithmetic operations need to be available in different widths since you cannot know which width the target processor will have. This differs a bit from the RISC ISA since those normally have operations which cover the whole register only. >But in fact when using a VIP what you are doing is a trade between >performance and portability. Try to build a VIP based dynarec as >fast as a normal dynarec is impossible. You don't want the best translated >code possible but the best you can get manteining portability. Agreed, but it should be tried to get as much performance as possible anyway. >It's a goblin the same as an orc? Quoted from The Hobbit: "'Orc' is not an English word. It occurs in or two places but is usually translated 'goblin' (or 'hobgoblin' for the larger kinds). 'Orc' is the hobbits' form of the name at that time to these creatures..." So 'orc' and 'goblin' are synonymous, at least according to Tolkien himself. >Perhaps the problem is the kind of VIP you are thinking >is too big as a concept to be real. A VIP for ALL the existing ISAs, >perhaps it's a good idea but a more practical idea could be a VIP for the >ISAs with I will want to working. The work needed to develop a VIP is only worth it when the VIP can be used for as many architectures as possible, otherwise it would be easier to do direct translations. If you want to limit it to certain architectures you have the next question, which architectures should be considered? >And of course, in those kind of problems my solution is to make work the >VIP to target translator/compiler. I still haven't spend too much thought on my original idea, but it might be worth it... >I know, I know :) But the discussion helps me to learn about that topic. And it helps me to understand why I originally dropped the idea of having a VIP which I enjoyed for so long... >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Old age is the most unexpected of things that can happen to a man. -- Trotsky --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 08:08:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA42665 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 08:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39352A2C.73B8C67B@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:05:16 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ References: <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es> <000368e9908a5465_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > "'Orc' is not an English word. It occurs in or two places but is usually > translated 'goblin' (or 'hobgoblin' for the larger kinds). 'Orc' is the > hobbits' form of the name at that time to these creatures..." > So 'orc' and 'goblin' are synonymous, at least according to Tolkien himself. Okay. But in all fantasy since Tolkien they are in fact different races - with completely different characteristics. Like orc's being big. And goblin's being small. Anyway, on this happy note, I shall be leaving you. Unless I decide to check my mail before I leave then I shall bid you all a farewell until next Monday! Have fun! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 10:55:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA42858 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 10:55:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:58:18 +0100 (BST) From: Kieron Wilkinson To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <393502F3.2F8A2EBD@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I was going to add more to this topic but I haven't got time at the moment > so I've just cut it. Does anyone else think that what you're talking about > is remarkably similar to the way in which Java does it? I know that I do. > :) Actually, yes. I was going to say something about the JVM but the decided not to, but now seeing your message Neil I was going to say it again, but I can't think strait now after two finals in one day. Basically, I was going to say that I thought it seemed familier. Perhaps looking how the JVM works would be a good starting point? Perhaps even using Java bytecodes as the VIP instructions? Or is Java a bit too "new processor" centric and would not be able to handle things like the Z80 and CPUs with non IEEE FP's? I just thought that seeing as Sun worked it, perhaps this is a good way to go.... ? -- Kieron. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 11:19:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA42894 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 11:19:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:27:30 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Message-ID: <20000531192730.A1243@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <393502F3.2F8A2EBD@eurocopter.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: ; from Kieron Wilkinson on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 06:58:18PM +0100 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 06:58:18PM +0100, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > > > I was going to add more to this topic but I haven't got time at the moment > > so I've just cut it. Does anyone else think that what you're talking about > > is remarkably similar to the way in which Java does it? I know that I do. > > :) > > Actually, yes. I was going to say something about the JVM but the decided > not to, but now seeing your message Neil I was going to say it again, but > I can't think strait now after two finals in one day. > > Basically, I was going to say that I thought it seemed familier. Perhaps > looking how the JVM works would be a good starting point? Perhaps even > using Java bytecodes as the VIP instructions? Umm... people who know more about this than me tell me the Java JVM is broken in that it's stack-based, whereas a register-based VM would usually be more efficient (it's hard to do any sort of optimisation on a stack-based processor apparently). Plus, the JVM doesn't let you do things at a low enough level to be useful in a dynarec environment AFAIK. Something which might be more useful is to look at the VIP code used by TAOS/Elate, though I don't know if any information is publically available. From a document I read about it years ago, it's 'similar' to ARM code, though I guess that's subjective. Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 11:32:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA42918 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 11:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:35:18 +0100 (BST) From: Kieron Wilkinson To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ In-Reply-To: <20000531192730.A1243@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Umm... people who know more about this than me tell me the Java JVM is > broken in that it's stack-based, whereas a register-based VM would usually > be more efficient (it's hard to do any sort of optimisation on a > stack-based processor apparently). Plus, the JVM doesn't let you do things > at a low enough level to be useful in a dynarec environment AFAIK. Oh really? Okay, I didn't know that. Okay how about the JVM in Java 1.3 - HotSpot. This uses Dynamic Compilation. -- Kieron. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 11:43:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA42939 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 11:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:51:31 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ Message-ID: <20000531195130.A1283@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <20000531192730.A1243@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: ; from Kieron Wilkinson on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 07:35:18PM +0100 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 07:35:18PM +0100, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > > > Umm... people who know more about this than me tell me the Java JVM is > > broken in that it's stack-based, whereas a register-based VM would usually > > be more efficient (it's hard to do any sort of optimisation on a > > stack-based processor apparently). Plus, the JVM doesn't let you do things > > at a low enough level to be useful in a dynarec environment AFAIK. > > Oh really? Okay, I didn't know that. > > Okay how about the JVM in Java 1.3 - HotSpot. > > This uses Dynamic Compilation. I don't deny it's possible - but then, HotSpot starts out with Java code, yeah? I'm only half paying attention though, were you talking about using JVM code as an intermediate representation for other dynamic recompilers, or just about making JVMs go at a reasonable speed using dynarec? I think the latter is probably doomed to failure actually, since my impression of Java was that it forced you into programming in an inefficient way. It's been a while since I programmed in it though, so I can't really remember why I came to that conclusion... Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 12:53:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA43022 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 12:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <00b901bfcb3a$cdf6aba0$c8128cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: RE: JVM, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:56:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Basically, I was going to say that I thought it seemed familier. Perhaps > looking how the JVM works would be a good starting point? Perhaps even > using Java bytecodes as the VIP instructions? NOOOoooo! (possibly not the best way to start my first posting to a mailing list but...) JVM is a bit uselss for our purposes as far as the instruction set design is concerned; * non-orthogonal and limited instruction set * stack-based design so no registers * either very complex or very basic instructions (newarray, monitorenter/exit) * kind of OO-based and works with objects etc. etc. > Or is Java a bit too "new processor" centric and would not be able to > handle things like the Z80 and CPUs with non IEEE FP's? Everything included in JVM conforms to IEEE 754 (which is apparently FP comparisons or something). > I just thought that seeing as Sun worked it, perhaps this is a good way to > go.... It was a fair assumption and java is very very cool, unfortunately the JVM's not designed for our needs. Has anyone looked at Mite (Mike had the URL, I seem to have lost it) or the Transmeta instruction set? Just to introduce myself, I'm not full of this sort of information, I've just stopped researching a VM type 3rd year project in favour of a dynarec one. :o) Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 14:33:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA43141 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 14:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: RE: JVM, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <00b901bfcb3a$cdf6aba0$c8128cd4@daves> Message-ID: <000368f0fd7fdd37_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <00b901bfcb3a$cdf6aba0$c8128cd4@daves> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:39:44 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >NOOOoooo! (possibly not the best way to start my first posting to a mailing >list but...) But quite typical for you ;-) >JVM is a bit uselss for our purposes as far as the instruction set design is >concerned; >* non-orthogonal and limited instruction set Absolutely correct! >* stack-based design so no registers I think there are some local variables, but I'm not really sure how these work. Anyway this doesn't change the fact that it is stack-based, as are all other VMs for programming languages, BTW. >* either very complex or very basic instructions (newarray, >monitorenter/exit) >* kind of OO-based and works with objects >etc. etc. It's long since I ditched the idea to use JVM as VIP but I bet you're right. >It was a fair assumption and java is very very cool, unfortunately the JVM's >not designed for our needs. I even doubt that it is the perfect VM for Java, or at least not that useful for JIT compiling as Sun always claimed! >Has anyone looked at Mite (Mike had the URL, I seem to have lost it) What I don't like about Mite is that Reuben still uses condition flags and I think he uses some queer register allocation stack, but it certainly no stack machine and it's quite low-level. BTW, here's the URL: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rrt1001/research.html >or the Transmeta instruction set? They actually released some information about Crusoe's native instruction set? Where? >Dave -- M.I.K.e "He's just a politician trying to save both his faces ..." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 14:33:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA43154 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 14:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <20000531135047.A815@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000368f087d895db_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000368e7f02353b3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es> <20000531135047.A815@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:06:50 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >FP - something I know a tiny bit about, for a change! :-) Not that you know anything else ;-) >FP is, or at least should be, fairly standard for 'most' processors - the >standards in question are IEEE 754 (and 854) iirc. At least the x86 and >ARM (software emulated most of the time) both claim to adhere to it to >some extent... Actually x86 and ARM are very similar in using 80 bits internally while most other architectures only have the 64 bits which are necessary for double precision. >can't say about other RISC chips. From what I remember of >various courses, old IBM mainframes and Cray supercomputers used a >different FP representation. Most RISCs use IEEE754, but Alpha has some instructions for compatibility with the older VAX FP format. >I think if I were to rewrite any of my dynarec (which I might, or might >not, depends how I feel after exams), I'd change my VIP code slightly. I >stuck to mostly simplified versions of ARM instructions (that being my >source processor), rewritten as a kind of register transfer language with >side-effect information added. I think a cleaner way of doing things might >have been to use an explicit predicate buffer a bit like IA-64, and not >rely on the implicit ordering of instructions to handle condition codes, >etc. Yes, I also would eliminate everything connected to condition flags, but I think I'd use branch instructions which include the comparison of two registers. >As it was, the conversion from source code to intermediate code was fairly >easy, that change though would make things slightly more complicated. Yes, finding the right instruction which computes the bits needed in a predication could slow down things a bit. >Oh yeah, something else: I was tempted originally to try to keep my >intermediate code as simple (few instructions) as possible. That is, >rather than having an "add-with-carry" instruction, > r0 = adc(r1,r2,carry_flag) >split to two instructions like: > r0 = add(r1,r2) > r0 = add(r0,carry_flag) >even though my destination processor had a real ADC instruction. As it >turned out I didn't do that and added the ADC instruction to the >intermediate code, just because everything was kept simpler that way. Oh >yeah, and I couldn't decide what to do with the condition codes set by the >original instruction if I split it in half. >Maybe that's relevent to what you're doing, I'm not sure... It is! I thought about that case some time ago and at that time I wanted to handle add-adc-sequences by a 64-bit addition, but that might be a bit complicated to track down. Maybe dedicated instructions like in PowerPC "addc" and "adde" would be better. -- M.I.K.e Overload -- core meltdown sequence initiated. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 14:34:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA43158 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 14:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39352A2C.73B8C67B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000368f08e3c9254_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200005311149.NAA16303@pons.ac.upc.es> <000368e9908a5465_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39352A2C.73B8C67B@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:08:37 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Okay. But in all fantasy since Tolkien they are in fact different races - >with completely different characteristics. Like orc's being big. And >goblin's being small. I think that could be to Gary Gygax needing more and more monsters for Dungeos and Dragons and thus making goblins and orcs two different types of monsters... Hey, why are we off topic again?? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Gnagloot, n.: A person who leaves all his ski passes on his jacket just to impress people. -- Rich Hall, "Sniglets" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 14:34:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA43166 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 14:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000368f0b4ec3503_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:19:26 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Actually, yes. I was going to say something about the JVM but the decided >not to, but now seeing your message Neil I was going to say it again, but >I can't think strait now after two finals in one day. Oh no! >Basically, I was going to say that I thought it seemed familier. Perhaps >looking how the JVM works would be a good starting point? Perhaps even >using Java bytecodes as the VIP instructions? First of all a VIP is just hypothetical, you don't create any binary code for it. I've come up with two different methods of using it: 1. Either as an intermediate representation during runtime translation, which would be a linked list of structures, with each structure representing a VIP "instruction" with opcode and parameter fields. If you'd use a bytecode representation in that case you'd have to decode it again which isn't really what we want. 2. As some kind of assembly language in which the transalation of the source code is described. This VIP assembly can then be turned into native code generation on the target system with an automatic VIP to target translator. Also in this case there is no bytecode since we only have "assembly code" prior to compilation of the dynarec. >Or is Java a bit too "new processor" centric and would not be able to >handle things like the Z80 and CPUs with non IEEE FP's? Well, the JVM is just too high-level to be of any use for us. It doesn't have bytes and words, it has chars and ints. It's stack based (yuk!) and some other weird stuff for object handling... >I just thought that seeing as Sun worked it, perhaps this is a good way to >go.... Ok, it works, but who said it works good? ;-) >Kieron. -- M.I.K.e No man in the world has more courage than the man who can stop after eating one peanut. -- Channing Pollock --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 14:34:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA43177 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 14:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <20000531192730.A1243@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000368f0d6e56314_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <393502F3.2F8A2EBD@eurocopter.de> <20000531192730.A1243@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:28:56 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Umm... people who know more about this than me tell me the Java JVM is >broken in that it's stack-based, whereas a register-based VM would usually >be more efficient (it's hard to do any sort of optimisation on a >stack-based processor apparently). Did you quote me or anyone else? The main problem of the stack is that it's good for tree structures. But we don't have any trees, we have flat binary code. When we use a stack machine as a VIP we'd have to transform the source code into a tree just to flatten it out in the target code shortly later, which is slow and simply nonsense. The advantage of having many registers is that you have flat code as well and you can even do much faster register allocation. >Plus, the JVM doesn't let you do things >at a low enough level to be useful in a dynarec environment AFAIK. Indeed! >Something which might be more useful is to look at the VIP code used by >TAOS/Elate, though I don't know if any information is publically >available. I'd really like to have some information on VP and VP2, but apart from the fact that it's little-endian I didn't find out anything :-( >From a document I read about it years ago, it's 'similar' to >ARM code, though I guess that's subjective. Well, maybe we should even take a look at all that stuff because those bytecode based VIPs since they share one limitation with normal processors: due to their relatively fixed size compromises have to be made what can be encoded in one instruction. Since we'd either use it in structures or as assembly language we can do about anything we want! >Jules -- M.I.K.e Why does man kill? He kills for food. And not only food: frequently there must be a beverage. -- Woody Allen, "Without Feathers" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 14:34:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA43180 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 14:34:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: DRFAQ From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000368f0dd8f0e5c_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:30:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Okay how about the JVM in Java 1.3 - HotSpot. >This uses Dynamic Compilation. True, but only after extensive profiling to find out which parts of the application should be compiled and how they can be optimised. And while the profiler runs only the interpreter is executing the bytecode... >Kieron. -- M.I.K.e We are confronted with insurmountable opportunities. -- Walt Kelly, "Pogo" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 14:52:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA43211 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 14:52:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <004f01bfcb4b$21fcbae0$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: <00b901bfcb3a$cdf6aba0$c8128cd4@daves> Subject: Re: JVM, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:56:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Okay okay, I get the idea. :) Java bytecode is not a good way to start. Fair enough. I have no idea about the internals of Java really, I just program in it. :) I didn't even know it was a stack system! >I don't deny it's possible - but then, HotSpot starts out with Java code, >yeah? I'm only half paying attention though, were you talking about using >JVM code as an intermediate representation for other dynamic recompilers, Yeah, that was what I was _trying_ to say. I just thought it would be a good starting point since it is so abstract. Now I realise that it is not as abstract as I thought. I thought that "in theory" you could compile any language to Java bytecode. So therefore I saw no problem with it. Ah well. Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 15:06:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA43246 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 15:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:14:13 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: JVM, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) Message-ID: <20000531231412.A1537@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <00b901bfcb3a$cdf6aba0$c8128cd4@daves> <004f01bfcb4b$21fcbae0$0100a8c0@nibble> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <004f01bfcb4b$21fcbae0$0100a8c0@nibble>; from Kieron Wilkinson on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 10:56:52PM +0100 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 10:56:52PM +0100, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > > Yeah, that was what I was _trying_ to say. I just thought it would be a good > starting point since it is so abstract. Now I realise that it is not as > abstract as I thought. I thought that "in theory" you could compile any > language to Java bytecode. So therefore I saw no problem with it. 'k, I'll admit it's a good idea in theory at least then... A couple of people in my year tried to write Scheme to Java bytecode compilers, one of whom hit problems early on with the bytecode not being expressive enough to represent everything he needed, the other of whom didn't do much work on the project at all and ended up with a plain Scheme interpreter in Java AFAIK. Someone else I know (a supervisor) had more luck compiling ML to Java bytecode, but that's just sick and perverse really... well, at least it's possible to compile some other languages to Java bytecode anyway. I even have a URL for that one: http://research.microsoft.com/~nick/mlj.htm Not that that's useful or related to the list, or anything. Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 16:46:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA43365 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 16:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002701bfcb5b$5a3ef0c0$1b128cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <00b901bfcb3a$cdf6aba0$c8128cd4@daves> <000368f0fd7fdd37_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: JVM, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:38:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > But quite typical for you ;-) :o) > They actually released some information about Crusoe's native instruction > set? Where? Oh, sorry, probably not - wishful thinking on my part. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 16:46:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA43364 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 16:46:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002601bfcb5b$58615720$1b128cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <00b901bfcb3a$cdf6aba0$c8128cd4@daves> <004f01bfcb4b$21fcbae0$0100a8c0@nibble> <20000531231412.A1537@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Subject: Re: JVM, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:36:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > luck compiling ML to Java bytecode, but that's just sick and perverse > really... well, at least it's possible to compile some other languages to > Java bytecode anyway. Yeah that weird MLj crap, one of the twisted guys in my year is planning to implement a chess program for it! As a matter of (off-topic) interest, this URL has over 130 languages implemented on the JVM, some interpreted, many compiled. http://grunge.cs.tu-berlin.de/~tolk/vmlanguages.html Getting back on track, is the mailing list of the general opinion that intermediate representations are a good thing for as fast as possible dynarecs when the source processor is fixed and the target is unlikely to change. BTW, Thanks for the email Julian will reply soon when more time - exams coming up. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed May 31 18:13:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA43470 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 18:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: VIP, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <002701bfcb5b$5a3ef0c0$1b128cd4@daves> Message-ID: <000368f403e58f52_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <00b901bfcb3a$cdf6aba0$c8128cd4@daves> <000368f0fd7fdd37_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <002701bfcb5b$5a3ef0c0$1b128cd4@daves> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:16:16 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> They actually released some information about Crusoe's native instruction >> set? Where? >Oh, sorry, probably not - wishful thinking on my part. Hmm, didn't find anything new on Transmeta's pages, so I guess they still want to sell it through "we have Linus Torvalds with us" instead of giving us the specs for the thing... But back to the our VIP topic: Did any of you take a look at MMIX, the new virtual processor by Donald Knuth? http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/mmix.html Even DLX is interesting, but then we could also take MIPS... >Dave -- M.I.K.e "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm attending the opening of my garage door." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 1 01:53:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA43808 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006010855.KAA27511@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: VIP, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) In-Reply-To: <000368f403e58f52_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 1, 2000 03:16:16 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:55:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >> They actually released some information about Crusoe's native instruction > >> set? Where? > >Oh, sorry, probably not - wishful thinking on my part. > > Hmm, didn't find anything new on Transmeta's pages, so I guess they still > want to sell it through "we have Linus Torvalds with us" instead of giving us > the specs for the thing... > It remembers me that when I had a bit of free time I have to write a page against them. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 1 09:51:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA44494 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: VIP, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006010855.KAA27511@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <0003690128dd9f4a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006010855.KAA27511@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 18:57:11 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com [Transmeta] >It remembers me that when I had a bit of free time I have to write a page >against them. ;) Good idea ;-) BTW, it seems you started a very interesting discussion again! >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Peace, n.: In international affairs, a period of cheating between two periods of fighting. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 2 00:27:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA45374 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006020730.JAA32015@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: VIP, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) In-Reply-To: <0003690128dd9f4a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 1, 2000 06:57:11 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:30:01 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > [Transmeta] > >It remembers me that when I had a bit of free time I have to write a page > >against them. ;) > > Good idea ;-) > > BTW, it seems you started a very interesting discussion again! > Indeed. :) Unluckly I couldn't spend as many time as I would want. A question I thought about yesterday. What are the difference between a VIP and a Virtual Machine (VM)?. If a VIP would be a VM then I think there is a lot of research already done out there. If not it will be interesting to see what VM topics are useful for VIPs. I also thought in Java VM (and I'm working with another VM) but now I think perhaps a VIP isn't exactly a VM. And my thoughts about VIP has been biased because I was thinking about it as a VM. For example a VM executes usually bytecode, but a VIP will be, as you have pointed, an already decode structure. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 2 03:04:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA45664 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 03:04:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: VIP, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006020730.JAA32015@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <0003690f90a6b8a6_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006020730.JAA32015@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:08:22 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> BTW, it seems you started a very interesting discussion again! >Indeed. :) And you thought you'd be useless for this list! >A question I thought about yesterday. What are the difference between >a VIP and a Virtual Machine (VM)?. Good question. Well, the term VIP isn't very official since I started to use it some time ago and I don't know if anyone else uses it. But I think a VM is more designed for a special language, like JVW for Java, WAM (Warren Abstract Machine) for Prolog, P-machine for Pascal, Machine- Forth... Also all the VMs I know seem to use a stack instead of registers, which isn't that good for our purpose. >If a VIP would be a VM then I think >there is a lot of research already done out there. Well, I wouldn't call that research really. Those VMs were designed to provide faster execution of a specific language, that's all. Either the VM is very primitive with about two dozen instructions (eg. P-code and WAM) or it's very specific (JVM). >If not it will be >interesting to see what VM topics are useful for VIPs. I took a look at P-code and it was just too stripped down, and Machine-Forth is too much stack oriented. JVM seemed to be too specific for me and you'd have to filter much, maybe just to notice that you don't have anything interesting left. I did my inspection of the JVM some time ago so I don't know about the details anymore. Probably Dave knows more about it than me now. Comments, Dave? >I also thought >in Java VM (and I'm working with another VM) but now I think perhaps a >VIP isn't exactly a VM. The differences are a bit blurred but I think the prototypical implemetations would be quite different. I guess the other VM is for your university work. >And my thoughts about VIP has been biased because >I was thinking about it as a VM. I should have expected that because no-one knows the term VIP and VMs are quite popular at the moment. Probably my fault... >For example a VM executes usually bytecode, >but a VIP will be, as you have pointed, an already decode structure. I'm not sure if all VMs have bytecode. I know that most Prolog systems with a WAM compile the source after loading, but I don't know how the iternal structure looks. P-code looks like bytecode, but it's so primitive that it can be decoded very fast. I think most systems for funtional languages have an inbuilt VM nowadays, and Miranda even has a separate compiler but I don't know what kind of VM it uses. I mean, you could use bytecode for a VIP as well, but I guess it would be slower and using a structure has the advatange that we could have additional information like "this is a branch target, don't optimise". Also bytecode has a variable instruction length or it is limited because of a fixed size. A double-linked list of structures would ease navigation in the sequence of instructions (which can be very useful for optimisation) while having quite some freedom what information to include in the instruction. BTW, I just thought of another decision problem I had with VIP: Include rotations or not? That question maysound weird, but some modern CPUs like MIPS or Alpha don't have any rotation instructions, but you can simulate the behaviour with two shifts and one OR. I wonder why NB didn't post any comments on the topic. Maybe he's just too busy at the moment... [Pager: "Hey, the board's on fire!" ;-)] >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Now and then an innocent person is sent to the legislature. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 2 03:55:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA45718 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 03:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <000601bfcc81$fda8aa40$40308cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <200006020730.JAA32015@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003690f90a6b8a6_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: VIP, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:01:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I took a look at P-code and it was just too stripped down, and Machine-Forth > is too much stack oriented. JVM seemed to be too specific for me and you'd > have to filter much, maybe just to notice that you don't have anything > interesting left. I did my inspection of the JVM some time ago so I don't > know about the details anymore. Probably Dave knows more about it than me > now. > Comments, Dave? Eh, what? Me? I'm afraid your right Mike, VMs are very much designed for the purpose of the single language that targets them. Even when they are targetted by other languages, it's still clear that they're not designed for them. Furthermore, although some are JIT'd, even those instruction sets are primarily designed for interpretation (short instruction length, CISC-like instructions) rather than nice RISC sets that would be better for compilation. I'm afraid the VM direction for dynarecs would be purely for academic curiosity and where performance is concerned we're going to have to have something purpose-built. > BTW, I just thought of another decision problem I had with VIP: Include > rotations or not? That question maysound weird, but some modern CPUs like > MIPS or Alpha don't have any rotation instructions, but you can simulate the > behaviour with two shifts and one OR. I'd say yes include them for the simple fact that many CPUs do have rotations and it's not as high level/CISCy as something like BCD that's been discussed previously. Imagine targetting an ARM for a program with rotates without having an explicit rotate in the VIP. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 2 04:14:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA45755 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:14:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: VIP, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <000601bfcc81$fda8aa40$40308cd4@daves> Message-ID: <0003691093f2c11f_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006020730.JAA32015@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003690f90a6b8a6_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <000601bfcc81$fda8aa40$40308cd4@daves> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:20:52 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> Comments, Dave? >Eh, what? Me? No, your sister ;-) Ok, you couldn't kow that you're the only Dave on this list, at least in the non-lukers section. >I'm afraid your right Mike, VMs are very much designed for the purpose of >the single language that targets them. Even when they are targetted by other >languages, it's still clear that they're not designed for them. Just as I thought... >Furthermore, although some are JIT'd, even those instruction sets are >primarily designed for interpretation (short instruction length, CISC-like >instructions) rather than nice RISC sets that would be better for >compilation. Indeed. I still doubt that Sun had JIT compilation in mind when they designed the JVM, althought they claimed it for some time. >I'm afraid the VM direction for dynarecs would be purely for >academic curiosity and where performance is concerned we're going to have to >have something purpose-built. So do we want to do some theoretical stuff or just try to build our own VIP? >I'd say yes include them for the simple fact that many CPUs do have >rotations and it's not as high level/CISCy as something like BCD that's been >discussed previously. Agreed. I just wanted to note that there are still many compromises to be taken in that topic... >Imagine targetting an ARM for a program with rotates >without having an explicit rotate in the VIP. Hehe, that would be no fun ;-) Well, at least you could precalculate all rotations used in literals. >Dave -- M.I.K.e There are three ways to get something done: do it yourself, hire someone, or forbid your kids to do it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 2 11:06:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA46245 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <000001bfccbe$428db920$a8068cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <200006020730.JAA32015@pons.ac.upc.es> <0003690f90a6b8a6_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <000601bfcc81$fda8aa40$40308cd4@daves> <0003691093f2c11f_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: VIP, was (DYNAREC: DRFAQ) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:25:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Indeed. I still doubt that Sun had JIT compilation in mind when they designed > the JVM, althought they claimed it for some time. I suspect it occurred to them but they had to get the thing off the ground and interpretation had to be the easiest way to do that. For embedded systems and the like which java's partially designed for IIRC you don't want a JIT anyway. > So do we want to do some theoretical stuff or just try to build our own VIP? I think for my third year project I'm going to have to design a dedicated intermediate representation as for what everyone else is doing, who knows? My main concern is whether to try and make the dynarec retargetable or not as I think the problems could be significant. > Hehe, that would be no fun ;-) > Well, at least you could precalculate all rotations used in literals. True. As a matter of interest (and as I'm new to the list) what sort of things is everyone else interested/working on at the moment? Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Sat Jun 3 10:45:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA49802 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" Message-ID: <0003692a23ce2ac9_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:50:40 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Ok, I thought we need some more prices material to discuss, so I'll "simply" try to define a VIP in the next few postings... Organisation ************ Ok, the caches... oops, it's a virtual processor, so we don't have any organisation ;-) Architecture *********** I think we all agree that is should be rather simple and therefore RISC-like: * 3-address code * load/store architecture * no immediate operands; literals will be loaded into registers by LEA or CLR (only zero, just because of the high frequency it is needed); I actually had the idea to do it that way before I noticed that Mite and ARMphetamine work the same way, because you spare a lot of instructions... * huge set of GPRs (256? no I'm not influenced by MMIX ;-), but no special registers since only simulated registers are needed anyway * the register width is most likely 32 bit; originally I planned 64 bit, but that might be a bit difficult to handle? We'll see what I come up with eventually... Since we'll deal with different sized operations from various architectures a suffix will be attached to almost all instructions to specify the size. I'll stick with Donald Knuths terms used for MMIX, since "word" is always differently interpreted according to the architecture: 1 byte (= 8 bit), suffix '.B' 1 wyde (= 2 bytes), suffix '.W' 1 tetra (= 4 bytes), suffix '.T' 1 octa (= 8 bytes), suffix '.O' Alternatively instructions for sign and zero extension could be applied to the results. The nice thing then would be that we didn't need an difference between signed and unsigned loads. Logical Operations ***************** Since we recently discussed the logical operations I'll start with these: AND Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs n Rt OR Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs v Rt XOR Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs o Rt BIC Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs n ~Rt NOR Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = ~(Rs v Rd) NOT Rd, Rs : Rd = ~Rs Arithmetic Operations ********************* ADD Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs + Rt SUB Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs - Rt NEG Rd, Rs : Rd = -Rs LSL Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs << Rt LSR Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs >> Rt ASR Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs >>> Rt ROL Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = (Rs << Rd) v (Rs >> -Rd) ROR Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = (Rs >> Rd) v (Rs << -Rd) Maybe ADDC, ADDE, SUBC, and SUBE should be added to ease the hanling of those common sequences. I'm not so sure about the following ones: MUL Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs * Rt DIV Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = Rs / Rt REM Rd, Rs, Rt : Rd = remainder(Rs / Rt) The problem is that some architectures have special unsigned and signed versions of these, also some define a MUL like this (Rd1,Rd2) = Rs * Rt ... It might be really a good idea to have instructions like EXTS.X and EXTZ.X for sign and zero extension instead of having size extensions in any instruction. Simple Data Transfer ******************* MOV Rd, Rs : Rd = Rs LEA Rd, addr : Rd = addr CLR Rd : Rd = 0 Still to be covered are: *loads and stores * compares and other tests (keep in mind that the VIP has no condition register) * jumps and branches I hope there are not too many errors in here... Just tell me your opinions. I guess this could heat up the discussion a bit ; -) -- M.I.K.e Worst Response To A Crisis, 1985: From a readers' Q and A column in TV GUIDE: "If we get involved in a nuclear war, would the electromagnetic pulses from exploding bombs damage my videotapes?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Sat Jun 3 10:50:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA49818 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:50:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:01:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <0003692a23ce2ac9_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Ok, the caches... oops, it's a virtual processor, so we don't have any > organisation ;-) Are you guys really going through with a virtual processor for purposes of dynarec? I think you already know my views on it. A two stage recompiler is far better, and gives the opportunity for the target to generate source specific code and take advantage of things like flags and whatnot. All of that is completely lost with an intermediate "fake" CPU, and it really doesn't help! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Sat Jun 3 11:23:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA49867 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003692aa4016c81_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:26:31 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Are you guys really going through with a virtual processor for purposes of >dynarec? I think you already know my views on it. I guess you also know me opinion about it! >A two stage recompiler >is far better, and gives the opportunity for the target to generate source >specific code and take advantage of things like flags and whatnot. All of >that is completely lost with an intermediate "fake" CPU, and it really >doesn't help! It seems that no-one believes us without a real experience. You know it because you're a processor wiz, I learned it the hard way (by analyzing about a dozen architectures just to find out that it's impossible to find a basic common instruction set), but they seem to need some practical stuff as well to realize what we both already know. I thought defining a VIP as they imagine it and showing them how it fails in real translations could enforce our arguments. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Have you ever noticed that the people who are always trying to tell you, "There's a time for work and a time for play," never find the time for play? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 00:41:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52096 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006050744.JAA10460@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 3, 2000 11:01:03 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:44:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Ok, the caches... oops, it's a virtual processor, so we don't have any > > organisation ;-) > > Are you guys really going through with a virtual processor for purposes of > dynarec? I think you already know my views on it. A two stage recompiler > is far better, and gives the opportunity for the target to generate source > specific code and take advantage of things like flags and whatnot. All of > that is completely lost with an intermediate "fake" CPU, and it really > doesn't help! > Well, I see the VIP as an alternative for getting an "easy" (ehem!... ;) way for building portable dynarecs. You know I like a lot your approach, actually I think is the best. Sure the best I have seen. The two layer approach seems to help to portability, but in what degree? Do you think, for example, your DRMZ80 could be easily ported? And the discussion helps to know about a new topic. Perhaps we could get also new ideas to use in normal dynarecs. If not we are talking about dynarecs (a fact that happens rarely here ;) that it's the purpose of the list and new people is getting active into the list. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 00:53:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52112 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006050756.JAA18132@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <0003692aa4016c81_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 3, 2000 08:26:31 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:56:17 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Are you guys really going through with a virtual processor for purposes of > >dynarec? I think you already know my views on it. > > I guess you also know me opinion about it! > He should know it after all those mails when the dynarec list started. ;) > It seems that no-one believes us without a real experience. You know it > because you're a processor wiz, I learned it the hard way (by analyzing about > a dozen architectures just to find out that it's impossible to find a basic > common instruction set), but they seem to need some practical stuff as well > to realize what we both already know. > I thought defining a VIP as they imagine it and showing them how it fails in > real translations could enforce our arguments. I can see that a VIP perhaps doesn't help so much about portability and it's hard to design it. But what I can't see is why a VIP based dynarec is imposible (or difficult) to implement. I'm not really very interested in portability in emulation. Portability means usually very low performance - see MAME - and emulation, I think, needs a good performance. So for me discussing about a VIP is more a theorical issue :o than a practical one. And the main good point a saw about VIP is that if you don't have a real VIP to target for an specific architecture you can use an interpreter instead. This doesn't helps about performance (I think it will be slower than a normal interpreter) but helps with portability. And university professors likes a lot portability (and usually don't care about performance) and perhaps a VIP is the kind of idea they like. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 00:58:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA52125 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:58:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 01:08:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <200006050744.JAA10460@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > specific code and take advantage of things like flags and whatnot. All of > > that is completely lost with an intermediate "fake" CPU, and it really > > doesn't help! > Well, I see the VIP as an alternative for getting an "easy" (ehem!... ;) way > for building portable dynarecs. You know I like a lot your approach, > actually I think is the best. Sure the best I have seen. The two layer > approach seems to help to portability, but in what degree? Do you think, > for example, your DRMZ80 could be easily ported? Sure - why not? I'm assuming that you mean ported to another target. Absolutely. The only thing that needs to be written is the target layer. It's more work than writing a back end to a generic intermediate processor, but it sure opens up opportunities for optimizations that would get lost in an intermediate translation. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 01:07:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA52148 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 01:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006050810.KAA31886@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 5, 2000 01:08:53 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:10:15 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Well, I see the VIP as an alternative for getting an "easy" (ehem!... ;) way > > for building portable dynarecs. You know I like a lot your approach, > > actually I think is the best. Sure the best I have seen. The two layer > > approach seems to help to portability, but in what degree? Do you think, > > for example, your DRMZ80 could be easily ported? > > Sure - why not? I'm assuming that you mean ported to another > target. Absolutely. The only thing that needs to be written is the target > layer. It's more work than writing a back end to a generic intermediate > processor, but it sure opens up opportunities for optimizations that would > get lost in an intermediate translation. > I asked you about this because you know more about it than all others on the list (is your emu!). I didn't want to say that I think it isn't portable (in fact in the doc I *WAS* writing about your approach I wrote that the two layer approach should help with portability), but just ask about how difficult could be port it. For example, it would be harder or easier than porting MZ80?. What amount of work is already done in the source layer?, it needs some (small) modifications? The two layer approach really helps portability or it will be almost as difficult as building a full new dynarec? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 02:35:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA52384 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 02:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006050938.LAA10954@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: SI project In-Reply-To: <200006050810.KAA31886@pons.ac.upc.es> "from Victor Moya del Barrio at Jun 5, 2000 10:10:15 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:38:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Well, this is a mail about SI project in MUL8 list. I post it here (as I posted some others some ago) mainly because NG is usually reading the list (perhaps he is still in Prague?). And perhaps NB would say something too. ;) But now I have seen so many people from the project here that it really doesn't matter. Perhaps it still keeps those mails from the more beginners.:p Well, to everyone interested. What will happen with the project? These week I won't do anything (because I have two exams) but from next week I will have a lot of free time and I would like to continue it. The problem is I don't see the interest or the collaboration level required in the list. Javi saied he will post a context, but I think he didn't have enough time last weekend (he got Snatcher from MegaCD ;). In any case if he is the only beginneer who will do anything the full thing has no sense. He lives 1 minute far from my house and use a mail server in Portland to help it about emulation is a waste of time. I think perhaps the purpose of the SI will have to change. If there isn't beginners doing the project perhaps will be better build another kind of tutorial. For example write a kind of lessons about emulation using a Space Invader emulator as an example for the lessons. Any comments? Victor Moya P.S. I wouldn't post this mail if I wasn't so bored, but I don't have much work today and I don't want to begin studying yet. :o --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 06:16:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA52626 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 06:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:19:07 +0100 (BST) From: Kieron Wilkinson To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <200006050756.JAA18132@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Victor Moya del Barrio wrote: > I can see that a VIP perhaps doesn't help so much about portability and it's > hard to design it. But what I can't see is why a VIP based dynarec is > imposible (or difficult) to implement. I'm not really very interested in > portability in emulation. Portability means usually very low performance > - see MAME - and emulation, I think, needs a good performance. So for me > discussing about a VIP is more a theorical issue :o than a practical one. > And the main good point a saw about VIP is that if you don't have a real > VIP to target for an specific architecture you can use an interpreter instead. > This doesn't helps about performance (I think it will be slower than a > normal interpreter) but helps with portability. And university professors > likes a lot portability (and usually don't care about performance) and > perhaps a VIP is the kind of idea they like. ;) Well, I think that portability is more important than performance to some extent (probably not the best thing to say in a dynarec list! :) purely because I see emulation as making a system in a sense "timeless". If it is not portable, then if the general target platform changed we would lose the emu if the author did not want to work on it anymore. I don't think that this is too far off either, say Intel starts pushing IA64 into the mainstream home market in say 5 years from now because they get fed up with trying to push the crappy x86 architecture (sorry Neil B - IMHO) any faster. All those dynarec (& closed source) emulators are going to have to be interpreted again via the x86 emulator that Intel would probably provide for legacy applications. Where would your performance be then? :) -- Kieron. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 08:33:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA52782 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006050756.JAA18132@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <000369501c753c8c_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006050756.JAA18132@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:08:45 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> I guess you also know me opinion about it! >He should know it after all those mails when the dynarec list started. ;) Yeah, I think so ;-) >I can see that a VIP perhaps doesn't help so much about portability and it's >hard to design it. But what I can't see is why a VIP based dynarec is >imposible (or difficult) to implement. It's not impossible to implement when the VIP has a simple RISC-like design, of course you could add all the features of all known processors and you'd end up with a monster nobody would like to implement, but the real problem is to design and implement it "right". I mean a VIP must be precise enough to describe about any semantics on very many architectures, but on the other hand it should be possible to create a more or less optimized code from it, and it's very hard to combine both issues in one design. It's bad that I kept the reasearched material mainly in my brain and didn't keep any of my scrap papers, otherwise I might have an easy access to lots of examples which are very hard to do in a VIP. Either you'd have to include special instructions and every porter would kill you or just say "do your sh* t alone", or you'd need to generate several VIP "instructions", which are very hard to identify as a special feature later on and this leads to sub- optimal code, which might be even slower than interpretive emulation and this is certainly what we don't want! >I'm not really very interested in portability in emulation. Why not? >Portability means usually very low performance >- see MAME - Ok, MAME is an example how not to do it... >and emulation, I think, needs a good performance. That's true. >So for me >discussing about a VIP is more a theorical issue :o than a practical one. You tell me that now? I try to define a VIP thinking you'd *implement* it, and now you tell me it's all theory? ;-) >And the main good point a saw about VIP is that if you don't have a real >VIP to target for an specific architecture you can use an interpreter >instead. Well, in that case threaded code would be faster, and Executor uses threaded code, the "VIP" is only used during compile time, at least that's how I understood it. >This doesn't helps about performance (I think it will be slower than a >normal interpreter) but helps with portability. And university professors >likes a lot portability (and usually don't care about performance) and >perhaps a VIP is the kind of idea they like. ;) You're still too much of a student, aren't you? ;-) >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e The early bird who catches the worm works for someone who comes in late and owns the worm farm. -- Travis McGee --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 08:33:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA52790 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006050810.KAA31886@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <00036950627ec468_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006050810.KAA31886@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:28:20 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I asked you about this because you know more about it than all others >on the list (is your emu!). I didn't want to say that I think it isn't >portable (in fact in the doc I *WAS* writing about your approach I wrote >that the two layer approach should help with portability), but just ask >about how difficult could be port it. Even though I don't know so much about the source as Neil does I'll try to answer that question... >For example, it would be harder or easier than porting MZ80? MZ80 is written in assembly, right? In that case I think it shouldn't be harder maybe even easier to port. When porting MZ80 you need to translate the x86 code but also need a good knowledge of Z80 to get it right. When porting DMZ80 you only have to have some knowledge of Z80 because you get it in pre-analyzed bites. The x86 can be only a slight reference, but you won't really translate it because you might want to use a different register allocation, and so on. Basically you have to rewrite almost the whole target layer but you won't have to translate it. That way you mainly need to have knowledge of the processor in the source layer but not of both processors as would be the case with MZ80. Is that at least partly right, or am I totally wrong? Comments NB? >What amount of work is already done in the source layer? The whole decode currently, later maybe some peephole optimisation, redundant flag removal. Have I forgotten anything? >, it needs some (small) modifications? If it's done correctly, and I bet Neil planned it that way from the beginning (unlike my first approach) you won't have to make any changes to the source layer when porting it! >The two layer approach really >helps portability or it will be almost as difficult as building a full new >dynarec? It surely helps, since you don't have to write your own decoder or do the translations directly in the decoder (which is a very common approch at the moment, yuk!) but you work with predecoded (optionally preoptimised) structures, which adds quite an amount of abstraction, which should simplify not only porting but also traget code optimisation. I hope I have presented NB's ideas correctly... >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e It is illegal to drive more than two thousand sheep down Hollywood Boulevard at one time. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 08:33:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA52798 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 08:33:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000369508b030e42_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:39:40 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Well, I think that portability is more important than performance to some >extent (probably not the best thing to say in a dynarec list! :) purely >because I see emulation as making a system in a sense "timeless". If it is >not portable, then if the general target platform changed we would lose >the emu if the author did not want to work on it anymore. A very good argument indeed! The first thing I thought of when I heard of dynamic recompilation was, "How could you make that portable?" Since then I'm still on the quest... Portability is a great goal, but if this makes a dynarec slower than an interpreter we've failed our mission. And even faster vast reasearch I haven't found a good method yet. That's why I might sound a bit weird about that topic... >I don't think that this is too far off either, say Intel starts pushing >IA64 into the mainstream home market in say 5 years from now I don't think that it will happen this soon but I might be wrong... >because they >get fed up with trying to push the crappy x86 architecture (sorry Neil B - >IMHO) any faster. I guess Neil knows the limitations of that architecture better than anyone else on the list... >All those dynarec (& closed source) emulators are going >to have to be interpreted again via the x86 emulator that Intel would >probably provide for legacy applications. Erm, Itanium includes hardware emulation of IA-32! It might be slower than compared to the newest Pentium III but it cerainly is there and if the OS permits it you're able to execute that code. You cannot run an IA-32 OS though since all interrupts switch back to the IA-64 mode. BTW, this is an idea that Intel dopted from ARM... >Kieron. -- M.I.K.e The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 11:08:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52987 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:19:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <200006050756.JAA18132@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I can see that a VIP perhaps doesn't help so much about portability and it's > hard to design it. But what I can't see is why a VIP based dynarec is > imposible (or difficult) to implement. I'm not really very interested in > portability in emulation. Portability means usually very low performance > - see MAME - and emulation, I think, needs a good performance. Portability doesn't necessarily mean low performance. Retrocade was ported to the E100, to OS/2, to the Mac and the Acorn - all of which run 2-3X faster than their MAME counterparts. MAME's Slowness is due to the architecture - not because it's portable. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 11:12:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA53002 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:23:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <200006050810.KAA31886@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > that the two layer approach should help with portability), but just ask > about how difficult could be port it. For example, it would be harder or > easier than porting MZ80?. MZ80 Is pure x86 assembly, so it's an apples to oranges comparison. In that case for another target it may even be a complete rewrite. > What amount of work is already done in the source > layer? You can do simple optimizations in the source layer (on the Z80 code for example) in addition to the code that handles the flag handling. It passes hints to the target layer as to what it should (or should not) do WRT flags. >, it needs some (small) modifications? The source layer doesn't need any modifications - only the target layer needs to be written. > The two layer approach really > helps portability or it will be almost as difficult as building a full new > dynarec? It's as difficult as building half a dynarec. All the control logic and information about the source stay the same from target to target. It's the actual emitted code on the target side of things that would have to be written for each target. However, in the case of the x86, I have a module called opx86.c. It just emits x86 opcodes. It's not really a "layer" per se, but one could also write a 6502 specific target layer that uses opx86.c as well. So it's not a total loss/rewrite. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 5 11:12:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA53012 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:12:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:23:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI project In-Reply-To: <200006050938.LAA10954@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Well, this is a mail about SI project in MUL8 list. I post it here Except you posted it to Dynarec. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 6 06:16:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA54247 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <393C9CF3.216555F6@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:40:51 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: SI project References: <200006050938.LAA10954@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Well, this is a mail about SI project in MUL8 list. I post it here > (as I posted some others some ago) mainly because NG is usually > reading the list (perhaps he is still in Prague?). Hehehe. Don't ask. But I never made it to Prague. I did write the complete disaster story into a book and sent it to my friends. I could send it here but I doubt you'd all be interested (though it WOULD be something to laugh about). The shortened version is: train late to train station, caught train in time, friend got thrown off train, paniced, went to Stuttgart, went to Frankfurt, disaster, disaster, disaster, yet another disaster, came home. Tired. :) And that's why there was no mail from me yesterday, I didn't want to answer anything that actually involved thought. :) > Well, to everyone interested. What will happen with the project? These > week I won't do anything (because I have two exams) but from next week > I will have a lot of free time and I would like to continue it. The > problem is I don't see the interest or the collaboration level required > in the list. No, that was my feeling as well. Ah well, if we do it your way (document everything) then at least there are documents out there. If people want to do it, they will. > Javi saied he will post a context, but I think he didn't have > enough time last weekend (he got Snatcher from MegaCD ;). In any case > if he is the only beginneer who will do anything the full thing has no > sense. He lives 1 minute far from my house and use a mail server in > Portland to help it about emulation is a waste of time. I *was* going to write the CPU context but I think he said that he'd do it. I'm still waiting. I guess I'll write to the list in a while and see what people have done. My bet is that the answer will be "nothing". The thing is that I don't want to write the context. It could easily end up that I end up writing the thing myself and that's no good for anybody! Certainly not me because I'll just optimise it and then no-one will understand it (out of the beginners at least!). > I think perhaps the purpose of the SI will have to change. If there isn't > beginners doing the project perhaps will be better build another kind > of tutorial. For example write a kind of lessons about emulation using > a Space Invader emulator as an example for the lessons. Any comments? We'll see how it goes. If it carries on the way you're doing it (writing documentation) then I'd say that your lesson-based thing is already being done! Anyway, I agree - but I say we wait and see what happens. > P.S. I wouldn't post this mail if I wasn't so bored, but I don't have > much work today and I don't want to begin studying yet. :o Heh, I know the feeling! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 00:21:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA55244 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <004501bfd051$773edc80$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor Moya del Barrio" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: SI project Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:24:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> Well, this is a mail about SI project in MUL8 list. I post it here > >Except you posted it to Dynarec. ;-) > Well, I wanted to post it to Dynarec. ;) I have used Dynarec to show my frustation. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 00:33:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA55264 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:33:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <004c01bfd053$37e3c440$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor Moya del Barrio" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: VIP definition Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:37:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Well, I think that portability is more important than performance to some >extent (probably not the best thing to say in a dynarec list! :) purely >because I see emulation as making a system in a sense "timeless". If it is >not portable, then if the general target platform changed we would lose >the emu if the author did not want to work on it anymore. > Well it´s a good point but my view is a bit different. If you want to build an emulator for business portability it is really needed if not, if you do it for fun you can worry about portability or not, focusing more in the performance aspect. But something really important and necessary in emulator, more in high-end emulators as PlayStation or N64 are, is performance. You can mantein somekind of portability but never going against the performance. If you implement an emulator portable but two slow for work properly, why do you need then portability? >I don't think that this is too far off either, say Intel starts pushing >IA64 into the mainstream home market in say 5 years from now because they >get fed up with trying to push the crappy x86 architecture (sorry Neil B - >IMHO) any faster. All those dynarec (& closed source) emulators are going >to have to be interpreted again via the x86 emulator that Intel would >probably provide for legacy applications. > I think x86 isn´t crappy at all. The main fault I see is the lack of registers. With some more register and perhaps ... ;). You can use an emulator to run another emulator. It could be fun. ;) We could try some emulators for Play in VGS to see how they work ... >Where would your performance be then? > I think that isn´t really a problem. Take in care that emulators can be built faster than new machines created so if you begin write emulators you will end without new work to do someday. But then as your target architecture change also you can work in porting your emulators. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 00:59:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA55289 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:11:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: RE: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <004c01bfd053$37e3c440$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by dynarec.com id AAA55286 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >IA64 into the mainstream home market in say 5 years from now because they > >get fed up with trying to push the crappy x86 architecture (sorry Neil B - > >IMHO) any faster. All those dynarec (& closed source) emulators are going > >to have to be interpreted again via the x86 emulator that Intel would > >probably provide for legacy applications. > I think x86 isn´t crappy at all. The main fault I see is the lack of > registers. With some more register and perhaps ... ;). Yeah. The x86 isn't anywhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to be. As Victor correctly pointed out, the real deficiency of the x86 is the lack of registers. A great many features of the Pentium line are actually quite nice and usable. One must use one of the lousy 8 bit Motorola parts (especially the 68332 chip) to appreciate a crappy chip design. > will end without new work to do someday. But then as your target > architecture change also you can work in porting your emulators. ;) Yeah - just write another target layer! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 06:47:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA55875 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:47:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <004d01bfd087$8f9da960$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:51:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Yeah. The x86 isn't anywhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to >be. As Victor correctly pointed out, the real deficiency of the x86 is the >lack of registers. A great many features of the Pentium line are actually >quite nice and usable. Well as I said it is my opinion. The lack of registers was the main thing, but what about segmented memory? (or is that the PC architecture's fault?) And the worst thing, which has nothing to do with bad design, is it being Little-Endian. Coming from a 68k background, I find it confusing, but then that is just me. (sorry I am not trying to start _that_ argument up!) I also get the feeling a lot of the features of the x86 line feel "bolted on" and inconsistent, but I have used it only a little so I could be wrong here. Besides, no matter how bad something is, if you know it inside and out - you are probably not going to notice as much as the next person. Resigned to it? I will admit, as with a lot of things I suppose, it depends on where you are coming from. >One must use one of the lousy 8 bit Motorola parts (especially the 68332 >chip) to appreciate a crappy chip design. What is the 68332 for? I know what you mean though - just look at the 68230 PI/T and the 68564 Serial IO controller. These are proving to be a bit nasty, but MESS should have them soon. :) Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 09:44:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA56083 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:56:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <004d01bfd087$8f9da960$0100a8c0@nibble> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Yeah. The x86 isn't anywhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to > >be. As Victor correctly pointed out, the real deficiency of the x86 is the > >lack of registers. A great many features of the Pentium line are actually > >quite nice and usable. > Well as I said it is my opinion. You probably wouldn't say the same thing if you've worked with a wide spread of CPUs. > The lack of registers was the main thing, > but what about segmented memory? Nothing wrong with segmented memory at all. 16 Bit segments, yeah, they sucked. But no one has had to deal with them in over 15 years now, so why even bring it up? Are they still teaching that rubbish in school? 32 Bit segments are great, actually. Makes it really simple to multitask, and there's no need to carry around the baggage of relocation tables where there is with the 68K series. > (or is that the PC architecture's fault?) The PC architecture has *NOTHING* to do with it. It was IBM's fault for mapping things the way they did. > And the worst thing, which has nothing to do with bad design, is it being > Little-Endian. Coming from a 68k background, I find it confusing, but > then that is just me. (sorry I am not trying to start _that_ argument up!) Consider that at the time when the 68K came out, it was the odd man out. All CPUs up until then were little endian (for the prior 20 years before that). > I also get the feeling a lot of the features of the x86 line feel "bolted > on" and > inconsistent, but I have used it only a little so I could be wrong here. Yes, you're wrong, here. ;-) > Besides, no matter how bad something is, if you know it inside and out - you > are probably not going to notice as much as the next person. Resigned to it? Nope. I know many CPUs inside and out. I've been to "completely screwed up design" and back again and have had to deal with CPUs with *REALLY* bad instruction sets (the Motorola 8 bit series is the worst). > I will admit, as with a lot of things I suppose, it depends on where you are > coming from. Lesse, from memory I've had experience with the 68xx series, 68HC11, Z80, all x86, Sparc, 68K, 6502, 34010, MCS-51 series of chips (8051 family), and the AVR 8535. The absolute worst by far is the 68332, followed very closely by the 68HC11. I can't understand why the 68HC11 is even popular! It's horrible! It's really common for people who don't understand the x86 to whine about how hard it is. It is NOT that difficult. Almost everything is orthogonal in terms of register usage (with the exception of ins/outs and the movsb instruction) since the introduction of the 386. But if all you've done is 16 bit programming, yeah, it's hell. But that's outdated by 15 years now. > >One must use one of the lousy 8 bit Motorola parts (especially the 68332 > >chip) to appreciate a crappy chip design. > What is the 68332 for? It's a chip designed to drive fuel injection and ignition for automotive purposes. The feature set is quite rich, actually. It can do pulse width outputs and handle all kinds of rotational velocities. The problem is the manuals are a foot thick and it's a bitch to program, and the tools for it are far less than adequate. FWIW, I'm in the process of designing a car computer for a race car. It uses a Philips XA-G49 and an Atmel 8535. It's designed to run to 15,000 RPM, drive 9 fuel injectors and 6 spark plugs (this is for a 3 rotor rotary engine). The engine we're going to have it on, with its turbos, pushes around 600 horsepower. ;-p I'll post pictures when things are far enough along where we have something to show. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 09:48:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA56098 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:48:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:00:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Lesse, from memory I've had experience with the 68xx series, 68HC11, Z80, > all x86, Sparc, 68K, 6502, 34010, MCS-51 series of chips (8051 family), > and the AVR 8535. The absolute worst by far is the 68332, followed very > closely by the 68HC11. I can't understand why the 68HC11 is even > popular! It's horrible! I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 10:47:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA56173 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:47:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003697aa58ea39d_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:53:34 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Nothing wrong with segmented memory at all. 16 Bit segments, yeah, they >sucked. But no one has had to deal with them in over 15 years now, so why >even bring it up? Are they still teaching that rubbish in school? The problem is that all books and all introductions still only feature or at least start with that damn limited 16 bit mode... >32 Bit segments are great, actually. Makes it really simple to multitask, >and there's no need to carry around the baggage of relocation tables where >there is with the 68K series. Hey, relocation tables were fun ;-) >The PC architecture has *NOTHING* to do with it. It was IBM's fault for >mapping things the way they did. The 64K segments were Intels fault, but the 640K limit was IBM's fault. >Consider that at the time when the 68K came out, it was the odd man >out. All CPUs up until then were little endian (for the prior 20 years >before that). Ah, wait! The IBM 360 is big-endian! And that thing was released back in 1964, which was some time before the first Intel chip! >Nope. I know many CPUs inside and out. I've been to "completely screwed up >design" and back again and have had to deal with CPUs with *REALLY* bad >instruction sets (the Motorola 8 bit series is the worst). I think that the 6800 has a clearer design than the 8080, and especially the 6809 is my favourite 8 bit processor. But I have to damit that I haven't programmed any 8 bit processor yet, so this just my impression from looking at the instruction set. >I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). How could you even forget that one?!? No, I'm absolutely no ARM fan ;-) Actually my favourite embedded processor at the moment is the SH-5. >FWIW, I'm in the process of designing a car computer for a race car. It >uses a Philips XA-G49 and an Atmel 8535. It's designed to run to 15,000 >RPM, drive 9 fuel injectors and 6 spark plugs (this is for a 3 rotor >rotary engine). The engine we're going to have it on, with its turbos, >pushes around 600 horsepower. ;-p I'll post pictures when things are far >enough along where we have something to show. Hey, you're surely a man with many talents! >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Whether you can hear it or not The Universe is laughing behind your back -- National Lampoon, "Deteriorata" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 11:30:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA56237 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:30:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <003101bfd0b7$685ed060$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <0003697aa58ea39d_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:31:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > The problem is that all books and all introductions still only feature or at > least start with that damn limited 16 bit mode... Agreed, they very often don't mention anything about protected mode (or any other form of 32-bit memory access). > >The PC architecture has *NOTHING* to do with it. It was IBM's fault for > >mapping things the way they did. > > The 64K segments were Intels fault, but the 640K limit was IBM's fault. I also agree, this was in the 8080 and certainly in the Z80 (yeah, the Z80 was Zilog - but that was formed by 2 people from Intel). > >Nope. I know many CPUs inside and out. I've been to "completely screwed up > >design" and back again and have had to deal with CPUs with *REALLY* bad > >instruction sets (the Motorola 8 bit series is the worst). > > I think that the 6800 has a clearer design than the 8080, and especially the > 6809 is my favourite 8 bit processor. But I have to damit that I haven't > programmed any 8 bit processor yet, so this just my impression from looking > at the instruction set. Z80 rU13z m4n! ;) > >FWIW, I'm in the process of designing a car computer for a race car. It > >uses a Philips XA-G49 and an Atmel 8535. It's designed to run to 15,000 > >RPM, drive 9 fuel injectors and 6 spark plugs (this is for a 3 rotor > >rotary engine). The engine we're going to have it on, with its turbos, > >pushes around 600 horsepower. ;-p I'll post pictures when things are far > >enough along where we have something to show. > > Hey, you're surely a man with many talents! And I'm working on a system which... well, basically, is the defence for Germany and France in the future. And it goes in the air and so I beat you! ;p Sorry, had to say that. I've had a bad day and so I'm trying to amuse myself. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 12:46:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA56326 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:45:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01bfd0ba$0e8a43a0$030b8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:55:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). I was just about to say, if you'd not seen ARM code take a look - true beauty. :o) Just as a matter of interest, I seem to remember reading somewhere a while ago that on an x86 you couldn't put a value from an 8 bit reg directly into a 16 bit reg which seemed a bit weird. Just say no if I'm wrong. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 13:25:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA56379 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:25:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:37:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <0003697aa58ea39d_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >sucked. But no one has had to deal with them in over 15 years now, so why > >even bring it up? Are they still teaching that rubbish in school? > The problem is that all books and all introductions still only feature or at > least start with that damn limited 16 bit mode... And what's odd about it is that it hasn't been used in at least a decade! > >32 Bit segments are great, actually. Makes it really simple to multitask, > >and there's no need to carry around the baggage of relocation tables where > >there is with the 68K series. > Hey, relocation tables were fun ;-) Back when code bloat was a big deal. > >The PC architecture has *NOTHING* to do with it. It was IBM's fault for > >mapping things the way they did. > The 64K segments were Intels fault, but the 640K limit was IBM's fault. But you said PC Architecture, which is purely IBM's fault. 64K Segments in the 8088 != PC Architecture. > >Consider that at the time when the 68K came out, it was the odd man > >out. All CPUs up until then were little endian (for the prior 20 years > >before that). > 1964, which was some time before the first Intel chip! But all the DEC VAXs were little endian and were more prevalent in the "user" sector. I knew of tons of VAXs. Very little 360's. And there are tons of 8 bit micros (even from Motorola) that are little endian. > I think that the 6800 has a clearer design than the 8080, and especially the I don't know how you can say that. The 6800's design was almost a blatant rip of the 6502. > 6809 is my favourite 8 bit processor. But I have to damit that I haven't > programmed any 8 bit processor yet, so this just my impression from looking > at the instruction set. I've written a 6800 and 6809 emulator core. Beleve me, those CPUs stink almost as bad as the 6502. The Z80 and 8080 are *FAR* easier to program and the instruction sets are far better. > >I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). > How could you even forget that one?!? No, I'm absolutely no ARM fan ;-) What I find so funny about it is that all the assembly instructions are *SEVERE* not-invented-here syndrome. When I saw "bl" for the first time, I was like "WTF?" They should've just called it jump like every other stupid CPU on the market (except BSR). > Actually my favourite embedded processor at the moment is the SH-5. I haven't poked much at it, but I do know that I don't like the R4000 much. > >RPM, drive 9 fuel injectors and 6 spark plugs (this is for a 3 rotor > >rotary engine). The engine we're going to have it on, with its turbos, > >pushes around 600 horsepower. ;-p I'll post pictures when things are far > >enough along where we have something to show. > Hey, you're surely a man with many talents! No, just one with too many hobbies. ;-) I'm a closet case mechanic. Used to race cars eons ago - specifically rotary motors (the best engine design in terms of pure physics, IMHO). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 13:27:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA56391 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:38:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <003101bfd0b7$685ed060$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > And I'm working on a system which... well, basically, is the defence for > Germany and France in the future. And it goes in the air and so I beat you! > ;p That kicks ass! Just make sure you put in a statement: "if (france) { while (1); } " ;-) Seriously, I think that's great. I'd love to have the responsibility of something like that. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 13:28:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA56400 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:28:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:39:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <002d01bfd0ba$0e8a43a0$030b8cd4@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). > I was just about to say, if you'd not seen ARM code take a look - true > beauty. :o) > Just as a matter of interest, I seem to remember reading somewhere a while > ago that on an x86 you couldn't put a value from an 8 bit reg directly into > a 16 bit reg which seemed a bit weird. Just say no if I'm wrong. Um....: movzx bx, bl You couldn't on the 8086/286, but on 386 or newer this instruction was added. You can also do promotion to 32 bits as well. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 14:39:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA56491 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:39:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01bfd0d1$c630ea60$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:43:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > That kicks ass! ...except I have to do it all in Ada. Seriously, Ada sucks major ass. I really detest this language and all of its predecessors. > Just make sure you put in a statement: > > "if (france) > { > while (1); > } > " > > ;-) Heh. :) > Seriously, I think that's great. I'd love to have the responsibility of > something like that. Well, I'm mainly responsible for checking that the networks connecting all components is working properly, but I seem to be testing all the other parts at the moment. No matter. Heh, it's great fun looking at some code and just thinking "Christ, I could do this MANY times better!". Especially when they're trying to cram all the code onto a small amount of memory. In some cases I could easily halve or more procedures - but I'm not going to because that isn't my job. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 14:39:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA56492 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:39:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01bfd0d1$c4d07000$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: DYNAREC: OT (just for once): MS Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:40:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, Just reading the rulings right now. What do you guys think? Sure, I didn't like their practices. But if America is all about building businesses from nothing all the way up then how can they do this? Anyway, I'll go read some news pages now and make up my own mind. Scary! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 14:45:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA56516 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:45:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:56:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT (just for once): MS In-Reply-To: <001a01bfd0d1$c4d07000$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Just reading the rulings right now. What do you guys think? Sure, I didn't > like their practices. But if America is all about building businesses from > nothing all the way up then how can they do this? Anyway, I'll go read some > news pages now and make up my own mind. Scary! Won't make a damn bit of difference. If anything, we'll have two Microsofts to deal with - not just one. The "OS/app" 'advantage' they speak of died in 1994. Back in the DOS and Windows 3.x days, it was prevalent for the apps to have special hooks into the OS that only MS published. Now everything's bloody there (far more than anyone would ever want). Basically, the ruling is based on things that were true 10 years ago but aren't today. I cannot believe how out of touch that "Finding of facts" doc was. 90% of it was pure shit. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:01:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56547 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <006801bfd0cc$940d2b20$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:06:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hmm, seems this did not get sent the first (or second!) time, I think I fixed the problem but eternal apologies if it comes up three times! > You probably wouldn't say the same thing if you've worked with a wide > spread of CPUs. Yes, you are probably right. And yes, you guessed that I have only really used the old 16-bit 68K, which yes is still taught at my Uni. :) I feel inadequate! Well, I am learning. Sorry for the silly questions then, but if I don't ask, I won't learn. I guess that knowledge of err, like more than one CPU would be rather helpful in this list, but dynarec is really interesting, obviously being why I joined. > Consider that at the time when the 68K came out, it was the odd man > out. All CPUs up until then were little endian (for the prior 20 years > before that). I suppose everything is going pretty much big-endian now (?) It seems most RISC developers use the big endian features of these processors... Is IA64 pretty much RISC? > I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). Oh yeah? Is that the Thumb architecture or the "older" one. I was thinking about applying for a job there (at ARM). Are they relatively nice to program? Program in it daily? What do you use them for? One last question Neil, You are subscribed (moderator for all of them?) to 50 newsgroups and get 400+ messages a day, you are into emulation, write CPU's cores, wrote Retrocade, make music with your synth's, have 3 pins etc. etc. Doesn't your wife feel a little left out? :)) Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:03:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56559 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:03:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003697e3c73a5a9_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:10:31 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >But you said PC Architecture, which is purely IBM's fault. 64K Segments in >the 8088 != PC Architecture. Actually it was Kieron who said the thing about PC architecture, I only corrected which limitation was due to which firm. >But all the DEC VAXs were little endian and were more prevalent in the >"user" sector. True but the VAX is much newer (1978). >I knew of tons of VAXs. Very little 360's. VAXen were cheaper but not that much used nowadays. The IBM 360 and its successors are still around. >And there are tons of 8 bit micros (even from Motorola) that are little endian. Could you given an example because I don't know any little-endian Motorolas. >I don't know how you can say that. The 6800's design was almost a blatant >rip of the 6502. Sorry when I have to correct you, but the 6800 was designed shortly after the 8080 and is older than the 6502. Actually the 6502 was designed by some former Motorola engineers who went to MOS Technology. Therefore the 6502 is a ripped 6800: accumulator B dropped, stack pointer stripped from 16 to 8 bit, same thing about the index register. The only thing they added was the second index register and a few more addressing modes. >I've written a 6800 and 6809 emulator core. Beleve me, those CPUs stink >almost as bad as the 6502. The 6800 is quite limited, but it doesn't have the short stack pointer of the 6502. The great thing about the 6809 are the addressing modes, which remind me of the 68000. Even better was the Hitachi built 6309, which added two more accumulators to a total of four which then could be combined to two 16-bit pairs or one large 32-bit register. It also added division to the multiplication the 6809 already had. >The Z80 and 8080 are *FAR* easier to program >and the instruction sets are far better. I wouldn't be that sure about it unless I haven't tried by myself... >What I find so funny about it is that all the assembly instructions are >*SEVERE* not-invented-here syndrome. When I saw "bl" for the first time, I >was like "WTF?" They should've just called it jump like every other >stupid CPU on the market (except BSR). First of all it's quite common to call relative PC changes a branch and absolute changes a jump, not only Motorola or ARM do it this way. Since BL * is* relative it's quite abvious to call it a branch. The jump instruction is performed by a MOV to R15 in ARM. Actually even the IBM 360 already had an instruction called BAL (branch and link)! You surely are a much better assembly programmer than me, but you won't beat me in computer architecture history! BTW, you should take a look at IA-64, it has lots of branches as well. And those "branch/jump exchange" instructions which are used to switch between IA -64 and IA-32 mode were inspired by ARM's BX (branch exchange) used to switch between the normal and Thumb mode. >I haven't poked much at it, but I do know that I don't like the R4000 >much. I liked the R3000, but I think later MIPS CPUs were changed for worse. With the SuperH architecture it's actually the other way round. >No, just one with too many hobbies. ;-) I know that problem... I'm an architecture freak just in case you haven't noticed yet ;-) >I'm a closet case mechanic. Use to race cars eons ago - You must be older than you told us then! ;-) >specifically rotary motors (the best engine design >in terms of pure physics, IMHO). I'm not into motors really, so you could tell me about anything... >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Jone's Law: The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:05:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56575 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002301bfd0cd$944842e0$a40e8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT (just for once): MS Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:13:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Won't make a damn bit of difference. If anything, we'll have two > Microsofts to deal with - not just one. The "OS/app" 'advantage' they > speak of died in 1994. Back in the DOS and Windows 3.x days, it was > prevalent for the apps to have special hooks into the OS that only MS > published. Now everything's bloody there (far more than anyone would ever > want). I have to say I do agree, but what are the other options? Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:11:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56589 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:11:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <003101bfd0b7$685ed060$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <0003697e569a4976_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <0003697aa58ea39d_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <003101bfd0b7$685ed060$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:17:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >And I'm working on a system which... well, basically, is the defence for >Germany and France in the future. And it goes in the air and so I beat you! >;p Erm, you should be careful when you translate that to German since the literal translation of "it goes in the air" would be "es geht in die Luft", which has basically the same meaning but also the secondary meaning of "it explodes" ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e You're at the end of the road again. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:13:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56601 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:24:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <006801bfd0cc$940d2b20$0100a8c0@nibble> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > You probably wouldn't say the same thing if you've worked with a wide > > spread of CPUs. > Yes, you are probably right. And yes, you guessed that I have only really > used the old 16-bit 68K, which yes is still taught at my Uni. :) I didn't get in to the x86 until the early 90's. My first CPU was the 6502, followed by the 8080 and then the Z80. I dealt a bit with the 6809, but not too much. > I feel inadequate! Well, I am learning. Sorry for the silly questions then, > but if I don't ask, I won't learn. I guess that knowledge of err, like more > than one CPU would be rather helpful in this list, but dynarec is really > interesting, obviously being why I joined. You REALLY get a handle on this crap when you write a dynarec. It's sort of a trial by fire! > > Consider that at the time when the 68K came out, it was the odd man > > out. All CPUs up until then were little endian (for the prior 20 years > > before that). > I suppose everything is going pretty much big-endian now (?) It seems most > RISC developers use the big endian features of these processors... Is IA64 > much RISC? Heh. Another fun topic. Define "RISC". ;-) The ARM is little endian, and it's modern. I think the IA64 stuff can be both. But the IA64 is PA-RISC. > > I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). > Oh yeah? Is that the Thumb architecture or the "older" one. I was thinking > about applying for a job there (at ARM). Are they relatively nice to > program? Program in it daily? What do you use them for? Thumb mode. No comment on what I'm doing with it, though. ;-) But yes, I work on it daily. Not only in assembly, but also in C with a buggy C compiler. One of my other pet peeves about "RISC" CPUs is that they cannot deal with unaligned dword reads/writes. The ARM core we're using won't even throw an exception when it occurs, so we've got to make sure our compiler is handling things right in all cases! > You are subscribed (moderator for all of them?) to 50 newsgroups and get > 400+ messages a day, you are into emulation, write CPU's cores, wrote > Retrocade, make music with your synth's, have 3 pins etc. etc. I said 25 mailing lists. And yes, I get around 400+ a day. But I don't write CPU cores, write Retrocade or do music as of late because I've been too busy with other crap. > Doesn't your wife feel a little left out? :)) Notreally, because she's just as busy as I am. ;-) But suffice to say our marriage couldn't be any better. We both love being occupied but still find time for eachother. We haven't missed a dinner together in months. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:17:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56615 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:29:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <0003697e3c73a5a9_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >But all the DEC VAXs were little endian and were more prevalent in the > >"user" sector. > True but the VAX is much newer (1978). Okay, PDP-11. ;-) Circa 1972 I believe? > >I knew of tons of VAXs. Very little 360's. > VAXen were cheaper but not that much used nowadays. The IBM 360 and its > successors are still around. I haven't seen one in years. Lots of VAXs though. > >And there are tons of 8 bit micros (even from Motorola) that are little > endian. > Could you given an example because I don't know any little-endian Motorolas. I'll check my books at home before speaking any further. The 6808 I believe was little endian. > >I don't know how you can say that. The 6800's design was almost a blatant > >rip of the 6502. > Sorry when I have to correct you, but the 6800 was designed shortly after the > 8080 and is older than the 6502. Actually the 6502 was designed by some Sorry - change 6800 to 6808. The 6800 is older than 1975 (6502 days?)? I'll check my books at home > Therefore the 6502 is a ripped 6800: accumulator B dropped, stack pointer > stripped from 16 to 8 bit, same thing about the index register. The only > thing they added was the second index register and a few more addressing > modes. And that fucked up zero page thing. > >*SEVERE* not-invented-here syndrome. When I saw "bl" for the first time, I > >was like "WTF?" They should've just called it jump like every other > >stupid CPU on the market (except BSR). > First of all it's quite common to call relative PC changes a branch and > absolute changes a jump, not only Motorola or ARM do it this way. Since BL * > is* relative it's quite abvious to call it a branch. The jump instruction is > performed by a MOV to R15 in ARM. > Actually even the IBM 360 already had an instruction called BAL (branch and > link)! > You surely are a much better assembly programmer than me, but you won't beat > me in computer architecture history! Maybe not, but when you're talking about a world of microprocessors and there are terms that are common and widespread, using less common obscure terms is just flat arrogance. > >I'm a closet case mechanic. Use to race cars eons ago - > You must be older than you told us then! ;-) Turned 31 last month. > >specifically rotary motors (the best engine design > >in terms of pure physics, IMHO). > I'm not into motors really, so you could tell me about anything... Felix Wankel - a noted German. ;-) That man had a vision. Makes piston engines look stupid. A 4 cylinder engine has 33 moving parts. A rotary engine has *THREE* moving parts. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:33:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56645 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:44:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT (just for once): MS In-Reply-To: <002301bfd0cd$944842e0$a40e8cd4@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Won't make a damn bit of difference. If anything, we'll have two > > Microsofts to deal with - not just one. The "OS/app" 'advantage' they > > speak of died in 1994. Back in the DOS and Windows 3.x days, it was > I have to say I do agree, but what are the other options? Options for... punishment? The problem is the damage has long since been done. Fines, say 25% of their gross profit for a year must go t a federal education fund. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:38:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56660 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <005101bfd0d2$2db66160$a40e8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT (just for once): MS Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:45:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Options for... punishment? The problem is the damage has long since been > done. Fines, say 25% of their gross profit for a year must go t a federal > education fund. Like you say the damage has been done, I'm not too bothered about punishment but I guess anything to truly make amends would mean the destruction of MS. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 15:41:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56675 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:53:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT (just for once): MS In-Reply-To: <005101bfd0d2$2db66160$a40e8cd4@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > done. Fines, say 25% of their gross profit for a year must go t a federal > > education fund. > Like you say the damage has been done, I'm not too bothered about punishment > but I guess anything to truly make amends would mean the destruction of MS. And that wouldn't be a good thing for the industry. The last thing we need is fragmentation. We had that in the computer nidustry 20 years ago and it sucked! It doesn't matter anyway. Whatever the "big guy" is, we'll bitch and complain about it. As Devo said, Freedom of choice is what we've got, Freedom from choice is what you want. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 16:16:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA56711 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <006801bfd0cc$940d2b20$0100a8c0@nibble> Message-ID: <0003697ef4c971b9_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <006801bfd0cc$940d2b20$0100a8c0@nibble> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 01:02:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I suppose everything is going pretty much big-endian now (?) Nope, nowaday almost any processor can run in both modes. >It seems most >RISC developers use the big endian features of these processors... ARM was little-endian in the beginning but can be big-endian as well since ARM6. I think Alpha is little-endian only. >Is IA64 pretty much RISC? Actually it's VLIW (very long instruction word) with 3 instructions in one 128-bit bundle, but the instructions are very RISC-like. >Oh yeah? Is that the Thumb architecture or the "older" one. Erm, there is no Thumb architecture per se! Thumb is an additional mode with 16-bit instructions in contrast to the normal ARM instructions. But it cannot exist on its own since the startup code has to be ARM and the processor switches back to the ARM mode on exceptions. The same is true for Itanium: when it runs in IA-32 mode and an exception occurs it switches back to IA-64. That's why no IA-32 OSes will run on Itanium, but it is possible to write operating systems that run the older IA- 32 software. >I was thinking >about applying for a job there (at ARM). Are they relatively nice to >program? I think of all RISC processors ARM might be the best to program in assembly. >Kieron -- M.I.K.e Toilet Toup'ee, n.: Any shag carpet that causes the lid to become top-heavy, thus creating endless annoyance to male users. -- Rich Hall, "Sniglets" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 16:16:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA56722 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:16:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003697f203367db_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 01:14:12 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I didn't get in to the x86 until the early 90's. Wow, I would have bet it was much earlier! This means there is still chance for me to catch up a bit... >Heh. Another fun topic. Define "RISC". ;-) According to David Patterson: * simple instructions that can be executed in one cycle using a pipeline * load/store architecture * fixed instruction length * large set of general purpose registers * and the original Berkeley-RISC also had register windows, which are only used by Sparc now. >The ARM is little endian, and it's modern. The first ARM's were little-endian, from the ARM6 on it could be both. >I think the IA64 stuff can be both. Not sure about that one... >But the IA64 is PA-RISC. The IA-64 was designed by Intel and HP but it is *not* PA-RISC! Apart from the fact that it is a load/store architecture it has almost no similarites with PA-RISC and is certainly not compatible to it. Originally IA-64 should include x86 and PA modes but only IA-32 was added, therefore HP is likely to be using dynamic recompilation techniques for older software. >Thumb mode. No comment on what I'm doing with it, though. ;-) Either NDA or it's a secret emulator ;-) >One of my other pet peeves about "RISC" CPUs is that they cannot deal with >unaligned dword reads/writes. PowerPC can and MIPS has special instructions for it. I think the reason for not having unaligned memory access is that you cannot hit page boundaries and don't have the potential of two MMU accesses in one memory access, but that's just my speculation. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "APL is a write-only language. I can write programs in APL, but I can't read any of them." -- Roy Keir --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 16:16:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA56729 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0003697f3e7ed851_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 01:22:40 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Okay, PDP-11. ;-) Circa 1972 I believe? You could even go back to the first real hit by DEC, the first minicomputer, namely PDP-8, which is still newer than the IBM 360 (1965). >I haven't seen one in years. Lots of VAXs though. I think they are used by governments and insurance firms to deal with a large amount of data. The computers caused the main problems during the Y2K fixings. >I'll check my books at home before speaking any further. The 6808 I >believe was little endian. I think the 6808 is compatible to the 6800 and should be big-endian, but I might be wrong... >Sorry - change 6800 to 6808. The 6800 is older than 1975 (6502 >days?)? I'll check my books at home I think the 6800 is 1974 and the 6502 is 1975, but I'll have to check that too. >And that fucked up zero page thing. The 6809 changed that to direct page access which is a good thing because it makes programs smaller and instructions faster. >Maybe not, but when you're talking about a world of microprocessors and >there are terms that are common and widespread, using less common obscure >terms is just flat arrogance. Well, acording to most computer architecture books I know a branch is relative and a jump is absolute. >Turned 31 last month. Yeah, I think it was the 6th, right? This is one day before mine ;-) What I meant is that you could be much older having done all that stuff! >Felix Wankel - a noted German. ;-) That man had a vision. Makes piston >engines look stupid. I'm sure you mentioned that name before! >A 4 cylinder engine has 33 moving parts. A rotary engine has *THREE* >moving parts. Uh, that's cool! Less parts, less problems! >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it. -- Abbie Hoffman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 19:43:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA56884 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <006701bfd0a6$3572d590$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:31:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > You probably wouldn't say the same thing if you've worked with a wide > spread of CPUs. Yes, you are probably right. And yes, you guessed that I have only really used the old 16-bit 68K, which yes is still taught at Uni. :) I feel inadequate! Well, I am learning. Sorry for the silly questions then, but if I don't ask, I won't learn. I guess that knowledge of err, like more than one CPU would be rather helpfull in this list, but dynarec is really interesting to me. > Consider that at the time when the 68K came out, it was the odd man > out. All CPUs up until then were little endian (for the prior 20 years > before that). I suppose everything is going pretty much big-endian now (?) It seems most RISC users use the big endian features of these processors... Is IA64 pretty much RISC? > I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). Oh yeah? Is that the Thumb architecture or the "older" one. I was thinking about applying for a job there. Are they reletively nice to program? Daily? What do you use them for? One last question Neil, You are subscribed (moderator for all of them?) to 50 newsgroups and get 400+ messages a day, you are into emulation, write CPU's cores, wrote Retrocade, make music with your synth's, have 3 pins etc. etc. Doesn't your wife feel a little left out? :)) Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 7 22:18:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA57001 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:30:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition In-Reply-To: <0003697ef4c971b9_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >I was thinking > >about applying for a job there (at ARM). Are they relatively nice to > >program? > I think of all RISC processors ARM might be the best to program in assembly. ARM Tools *SUCK*. The debugger, which hadn't seen an update in 1.5 years, is the biggest piece of shit ever made. The debugger will go out to lunch and you have to switch to another application and come back to it to get it to respond. It often will orphan itself when you close it, and when you bring up a fresh copy of it, the orphaned image will cause you all sorts of strange debuggability problems. The compiler is worse. You can't individually turn on/off warnings, and when you enable additional warnings, you get additional bogus warnings in addition to the good ones. It also doesn't properly handle unaligned members within a structure when referenced as a packed array (as a pointer it works OK), and will magically just do word size fetches (or dword size) on the same word instead of across them. So I've grown to hate ARM, their lousy tools, and shoddy support of their products. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 8 04:33:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA57511 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 04:33:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002401bfd0c5$0683f830$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: VIP definition Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:12:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hmm, seems this did not get sent the first time, apologies if it comes up twice... > You probably wouldn't say the same thing if you've worked with a wide > spread of CPUs. Yes, you are probably right. And yes, you guessed that I have only really used the old 16-bit 68K, which yes is still taught at my Uni. :) I feel inadequate! Well, I am learning. Sorry for the silly questions then, but if I don't ask, I won't learn. I guess that knowledge of err, like more than one CPU would be rather helpfull in this list, but dynarec is really interesting, obviously being why I joined. > Consider that at the time when the 68K came out, it was the odd man > out. All CPUs up until then were little endian (for the prior 20 years > before that). I suppose everything is going pretty much big-endian now (?) It seems most RISC developers use the big endian features of these processors... Is IA64 pretty much RISC? > I left out the ARM 7 in my list above (which I program in daily). Oh yeah? Is that the Thumb architecture or the "older" one. I was thinking about applying for a job there (at ARM). Are they reletively nice to program? Program in it daily? What do you use them for? One last question Neil, You are subscribed (moderator for all of them?) to 50 newsgroups and get 400+ messages a day, you are into emulation, write CPU's cores, wrote Retrocade, make music with your synth's, have 3 pins etc. etc. Doesn't your wife feel a little left out? :)) Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 8 11:22:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA57963 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:21:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT (just for once): MS From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <001a01bfd0d1$c4d07000$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: <0003698f3f9c9128_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <001a01bfd0d1$c4d07000$0100a8c0@lion> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:28:18 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com The "true" story about the Microsoft spilt is available on BeDope: http://www.bedope.com/stories/0110.html I for my part think that this is going to change nothing! Only when third parties stop producing Windows specific hardware (softmodems, GDI printer, etc) and when they don't have any contracts with Microsoft which don't let them give other OS producers the necessary information to write * good* drivers the position of Microsoft won't change in any way! -- M.I.K.e "If value corrupts then absolute value corrupts absolutely" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 9 02:28:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA58946 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: I'm free!! In-Reply-To: <0003698f3f9c9128_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 8, 2000 08:28:18 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:32:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Finally! I ended my exams!. :) Let see if I can now end some of the docs I started and post it to the list. I got an idea. If you want I could write a brief history of the subjects discussed on the list. It could help to know what has been discussed for the newcomers and also help remember us what subjects have been studied or need further study. A real brief of the discussions could be interesting aswell but will be harder to do. Who knows, if I get bored ... ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 9 02:37:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA58966 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:37:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3940BAD2.6A89CD8C@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:37:22 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Finally! I ended my exams!. :) Congrats! Good luck with the results! :) > I got an idea. If you want I could write a brief history of the subjects > discussed on the list. It could help to know what has been discussed for the > newcomers and also help remember us what subjects have been studied or > need further study. A real brief of the discussions could be interesting > aswell but will be harder to do. Who knows, if I get bored ... ;) Could always just collate all the e-mails into one giant file. That'd confuse people. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 9 02:46:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA58983 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:46:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006090949.LAA07306@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! In-Reply-To: <3940BAD2.6A89CD8C@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 9, 2000 11:37:22 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:49:54 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > Finally! I ended my exams!. :) > > Congrats! Good luck with the results! :) > If I'm lucky they will be the last exams in a long long time. I have ended all my university subjects now. :) > > I got an idea. If you want I could write a brief history of the subjects > > discussed on the list. It could help to know what has been discussed for the > > newcomers and also help remember us what subjects have been studied or > > need further study. A real brief of the discussions could be interesting > > aswell but will be harder to do. Who knows, if I get bored ... ;) > > Could always just collate all the e-mails into one giant file. That'd > confuse people. :) > Well, all this off topic mails could really confuse everybody. ;) But this will be easy to NB. I think a ZIP file with all the mails should be around 500K-1MB now. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 9 02:57:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA58999 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:57:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3940BF1F.1FFB512@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:55:43 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! References: <200006090949.LAA07306@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Could always just collate all the e-mails into one giant file. That'd > > confuse people. :) > > > Well, all this off topic mails could really confuse everybody. ;) > But this will be easy to NB. I think a ZIP file with all the mails > should be around 500K-1MB now. And if you snip all the off-topic stuff (like this vaguely is though it's slightly on-topic too!) then we could get it down to under 150k compressed. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 9 02:57:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA59014 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <0003699c26a89558_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:51:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Finally! I ended my exams!. :) Well done! >Let see if I can now end some of the docs I started and post it to the >list. When Neil creates an account for you on the dynarec server you could also put the docs there. >I got an idea. If you want I could write a brief history of the subjects >discussed on the list. Sounds like a good idea. >It could help to know what has been discussed for the >newcomers and also help remember us what subjects have been studied or >need further study. We discussed something? ;-) >A real brief of the discussions could be interesting >aswell but will be harder to do. Who knows, if I get bored ... ;) I hope you get very bored! ;-) >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e "The sooner all the animals are dead, the sooner we'll find their money." -- Ed Bluestone, "The National Lampoon" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 9 02:57:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA59017 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:57:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3940BAD2.6A89CD8C@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <0003699c2ba40587_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> <3940BAD2.6A89CD8C@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:53:18 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Could always just collate all the e-mails into one giant file. That'd >confuse people. :) And leaving all the off-topic stuff in of course! ;-) BTW, the file would be 7.6 MB big! >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Any clod can have the facts, but having an opinion is an art. -- Charles McCabe --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 9 08:53:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA59388 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:53:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39411340.60275540@eurocopter.de> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 17:54:40 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> <3940BAD2.6A89CD8C@eurocopter.de> <0003699c2ba40587_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >Could always just collate all the e-mails into one giant file. That'd > >confuse people. :) > > And leaving all the off-topic stuff in of course! ;-) > BTW, the file would be 7.6 MB big! Quite impressive. BTW all, there is a beer festival on in Mike's town this weekend. I'm sure he'd invite you all - but I think it's quite far for you all to come, but I'm going. It will be interesting to see what an alchohol-induced brain can in fact come up with when talking about processors. Who knows, maybe we can invent a new dynarec technique! Or... better words. Like "Shnurfl" for no other reason than it just sounds cool. :) And yes, it will be quite funny. While other people around us will be talking about their beer (and food, that's quite likely too), we'll be talking about processors. Damn, I'm becoming geeky! Still... beer. German beer. Niiiiice. :) A maß of beer = 1 litre. Alchoholic content is typically 5.2% or above. Does anybody else think that Germans like their beer? :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 9 18:15:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA60008 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <001901bfd27a$0f810520$0100a8c0@nibble> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:20:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I tell you what Victor, I got your message about finihsing exams (well done!) walking out of my last exam (I get them on my phone).... For the subject of SI: Please lay off the context for a bit... Cos now I have rthe chance to write one! Sorry for any speliing mistakes - I am soooo pissed right now... :) Kieron --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Sat Jun 10 02:28:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA60546 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:28:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <001901bfd2c7$2a1e0ac0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> <001901bfd27a$0f810520$0100a8c0@nibble> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:32:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I tell you what Victor, I got your message about finihsing exams (well > done!) walking out of my last exam (I get them on my phone).... Well done to you too! Just think, I'd be exactly the same right now if I wasn't in Germany... :o > For the subject of SI: Please lay off the context for a bit... Cos now I > have rthe chance to write one! Okay then. :) > Sorry for any speliing mistakes - I am soooo pissed right now... :) So long as you don't e-mail lots of people saying "I love you!" then that's fine. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Sat Jun 10 14:37:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA63430 for dynarec-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:49:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT (just for once): MS In-Reply-To: <0003698f3f9c9128_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > The "true" story about the Microsoft spilt is available on BeDope: > http://www.bedope.com/stories/0110.html > I for my part think that this is going to change nothing! Agreed. > Only when third parties stop producing Windows specific hardware (softmodems, Yeuck. Winmodems. Belugh. The fortunate thing is that they are dying. People have caught wind that they're bad news on a large scale. > GDI printer, etc) and when they don't have any contracts with Microsoft which > don't let them give other OS producers the necessary information to write * > good* drivers the position of Microsoft won't change in any way! The problem with writing *GOOD* drivers has nothing to do with Microsoft, it has to do with the inability of hardware companies to produce the drivers (speaking as a driver author myself). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Sun Jun 11 04:34:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA64289 for dynarec-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 04:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <006701bfd39a$1be24060$d1098cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> <001901bfd27a$0f810520$0100a8c0@nibble> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:42:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Please stop talking about exams and them being over, I've 11 starting tomorrow and totalling 23 hours of exams between then and the 23rd.... Cheers Dave PS: 2nd year CompSci and Warwick, England - and hating it at the moment > I tell you what Victor, I got your message about finihsing exams (well > done!) walking out of my last exam (I get them on my phone).... > > For the subject of SI: Please lay off the context for a bit... Cos now I > have rthe chance to write one! > > Sorry for any speliing mistakes - I am soooo pissed right now... :) > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 12 14:07:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA66392 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01bd964f$0c1dbc20$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> <001901bfd27a$0f810520$0100a8c0@nibble> <006701bfd39a$1be24060$d1098cd4@daves> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:10:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Please stop talking about exams and them being over, I've 11 starting > tomorrow and totalling 23 hours of exams between then and the 23rd.... I can still beat that, I've got to go into work tomorrow and program in Ada. ;) Seriously, good luck! > PS: 2nd year CompSci and Warwick, England - and hating it at the moment Computer Science, that's fair enough. But Warwick? I mean... Warwick? Any place within 30 miles of Rugby and Coventry can't be a good place! Besides, didn't you see the scenery in Dangerfield? Warwick indeed! ;) Speaking of which, at least you had the year to do that. I did a HND in Computer Science in Wrexham (so I can't really complain about Warwick!) and then went to Stafford, did the 2nd year Computer Science in 3 months (yes, really!) and I'm currently in Germany doing 9 months work placement. I didn't have 11 exams though, so you've beaten me on that score. Mind you, I'm betting you don't actually WANT to beat me on that score! Warwick! ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 12 23:17:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA66900 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:17:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3945D240.1CE3BE36@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:18:40 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> <001901bfd27a$0f810520$0100a8c0@nibble> <006701bfd39a$1be24060$d1098cd4@daves> <001d01bd964f$0c1dbc20$0100a8c0@lion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, Grr, that's annoying. Somebody has set the clock on my PC back by 2 years (so if your mail-software sorts by date then there'll be a message at the bottom of the list from me. I know that it will have been 1 of 2 people, time to go kick arse! GRR! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 12 23:23:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA66913 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006130627.IAA18193@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! In-Reply-To: <3945D240.1CE3BE36@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 13, 2000 08:18:40 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:27:43 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > Grr, that's annoying. Somebody has set the clock on my PC back by 2 years > (so if your mail-software sorts by date then there'll be a message at the > bottom of the list from me. I know that it will have been 1 of 2 people, > time to go kick arse! > > GRR! > Yes. I was deleting old messages today and only by luck I haven't deleted it. You have to watch your PC. ;) Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Mon Jun 12 23:38:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA66933 for dynarec-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:38:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3945D73F.CDB439BE@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:39:59 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! References: <200006130627.IAA18193@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > You have to watch your PC. ;) Ah, but I was with Mike this weekend at this strange beer festival in his town. Strange because it's on what they call a hill. I wouldn't mind, but I have difficulty grasping the concept of something you walk over in one step is a hill. :) Anyway, that's the end of it. I'm now protecting every part of my PC. It isn't going to happen again! Whether they say "Oh, but we want to watch a DVD" or not, I don't care. If they can't be trusted... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 13 00:00:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA66962 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:00:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3945DC27.E2F7FD33@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:00:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Dynarec project References: <200006130627.IAA18193@pons.ac.upc.es> <3945D73F.CDB439BE@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, I've been considering writing a dynamically compiling CPU for when I go back to University as I have to pick a project. However, I've sent a preliminary plan off to my project tutor about a completely different project because of problems I can forsee. These are: - Why is it useful (in a commercial environment)? - Why is it better? - How can I demonstrate it? - How can I demonstrate that it is better than other methods? - Will it be impressive to show a future employer? I still have time to change my mind about it because our projects aren't set until September. However, I'm not sure that I will change it because I can see no good way to get around those problems. Can anyone else? The project idea I've come up with is something similar to Klik'n'play (if you know it - if not, think of a games creation tool). This will be a GUI language-type thing with simple scripts. This will output C or C++ code (not an important consideration yet) and will be as optimised as I can get it. The problem is that in both cases, it's code I'd write anyway - for the emulator I'm writing with Andrew. The CPU core (needs writing!) but also graphical, sound and networking routines. I think the clincher is the fact that at some point, NB, Andy and me are meant to get together to write a good 68k dynarec core anyway so I'll probably do the game creation thing. It's better than repeating code I suppose. Besides, I want to end up working with 3D graphics so it's probably best that I do things relating to graphics. Although it would make more sense to do something in 3D - but I can't think of anything that I could do well in the 7 months or so that I'll have in 3D! Whatever I choose to write, I've got a name for it. "Hard light". Why? Well, I know that Mike will be laughing about now. :)) Neil. PS Hard light! Lalalalaaaaa... Hard light! ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 13 00:02:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA66978 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:02:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006130706.JAA30315@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! In-Reply-To: <0003699c26a89558_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 9, 2000 11:51:54 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:06:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >I got an idea. If you want I could write a brief history of the subjects > >discussed on the list. > > Sounds like a good idea. > Now I have taken a look to the mails it didn't seem a so good idea. Do you know how off-topic we were? > >It could help to know what has been discussed for the > >newcomers and also help remember us what subjects have been studied or > >need further study. > > We discussed something? ;-) > Yes about music, language, SF and Fantasy books, girls and perhaps French. ;) We will have to change the name of the list. > >A real brief of the discussions could be interesting > >aswell but will be harder to do. Who knows, if I get bored ... ;) > > I hope you get very bored! ;-) Unluckily this weekend I spent all my time resting and playing videogames. I didn't feel with energy to begin nothing. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 13 00:12:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA66994 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:16:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec project In-Reply-To: <3945DC27.E2F7FD33@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > preliminary plan off to my project tutor about a completely different > project because of problems I can forsee. These are: > - Why is it useful (in a commercial environment)? Who cares why it's useful in a *COMMERCIAL* environment?!?! I can think of one very good reason. In a lot of cases, embedded systems wind up with an executable to a device. Software engineer leaves the company and takes source with him (yes, it's *REALLY* common). Now supplier of said CPU is now discontinuing it. Now the company is faced with a rewrite... but not if they've got a dynarec! > - Why is it better? Better than... interpreted code? It's faster! > - How can I demonstrate it? Simple game of Space Invaders, Targ, etc... would demonstrate it - one emulated, one not. Make sure you log the results of the recompilation! > - How can I demonstrate that it is better than other methods? Use my emulator core (which IMHO is the fastest Z80 emulator out there) to demonstrate that it operates faster. > - Will it be impressive to show a future employer? Yes. Absolutely! It'll differentiate you between the average Joe out of college who "worked on a C project 2 years ago" and practically wrote a compiler. Speaking as a potential hire, if someone did something like that and showed it to me on their resume, I'd be impressed as hell, and it'd certainly show that they are REALLY interested in what they're doing and would also give me a great insight to their thought process. > set until September. However, I'm not sure that I will change it because I > can see no good way to get around those problems. Can anyone else? I'm confused... are you changing it *TO* recompilation or *AWAY* from? I'd go for it! It's a unique topic and it's sure to impress! > The problem is that in both cases, it's code I'd write anyway - for the > emulator I'm writing with Andrew. The CPU core (needs writing!) but also > graphical, sound and networking routines. I think the clincher is the fact > that at some point, NB, Andy and me are meant to get together to write a > good 68k dynarec core anyway so I'll probably do the game creation thing. Mark my words - we *WILL* do a 68K dynarec core. I promise! I'll also get back to my Z80 core as soon as I've been able to flatten out my synthesizer upgrade project. It'll be a couple of months, though. > working with 3D graphics so it's probably best that I do things relating to > graphics. Although it would make more sense to do something in 3D - but I > can't think of anything that I could do well in the 7 months or so that > I'll have in 3D! 3D Graphics is fine, but you won't learn 3D concepts in a 2D world. > Whatever I choose to write, I've got a name for it. "Hard light". Why? > Well, I know that Mike will be laughing about now. :)) I hope this isn't a reference to lighting one's own flatulence. ;-) Speaking of flatulence, I have a really cool patch on one of my synthesizers that emits farts. There's a "wetness" knob, too. My wife and I were in tears laughing! Want me to record an mp3 or two for your amusement? What's really interesting about it is that it's a modular synthesizer "emulator" of sorts that behaves in the same fashion (and is configurable just like) as a modular synthesizer of the early 70's. Check out www.nordmodular.com. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 13 00:46:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA67105 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3945E665.E4434DD0@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:44:37 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec project References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Who cares why it's useful in a *COMMERCIAL* environment?!?! I can think of > one very good reason. In a lot of cases, embedded systems wind up with an > executable to a device. Software engineer leaves the company and takes > source with him (yes, it's *REALLY* common). Now supplier of said CPU is > now discontinuing it. Now the company is faced with a rewrite... but not > if they've got a dynarec! That's a very good point. Hmm... > > - Why is it better? > > Better than... interpreted code? It's faster! Yes, I know that - and so do all of you on the list. But the project tutors won't know this... > > - How can I demonstrate it? > > Simple game of Space Invaders, Targ, etc... would demonstrate it - one > emulated, one not. Make sure you log the results of the recompilation! Hmm. By this, I assume that you mean one interpreted and one recompiled? > > - How can I demonstrate that it is better than other methods? > > Use my emulator core (which IMHO is the fastest Z80 emulator out there) to > demonstrate that it operates faster. Okay, this is looking more and more likely now... :) > > - Will it be impressive to show a future employer? > > Yes. Absolutely! It'll differentiate you between the average Joe out of > college who "worked on a C project 2 years ago" and practically wrote a > compiler. Speaking as a potential hire, if someone did something like that > and showed it to me on their resume, I'd be impressed as hell, and it'd > certainly show that they are REALLY interested in what they're doing and > would also give me a great insight to their thought process. You have a point here. The problem here is that the other idea also involves a sort of optimisation/transformation process which is also difficult. However, I'm thinking that dynamic recompilation could be more impressive. I guess I should sit down this weekend and try out some code on each one and see which one feels the best... > > set until September. However, I'm not sure that I will change it because I > > can see no good way to get around those problems. Can anyone else? > > I'm confused... are you changing it *TO* recompilation or *AWAY* from? I'd > go for it! It's a unique topic and it's sure to impress! To recompilation, I've currently suggested this games creation package. > Mark my words - we *WILL* do a 68K dynarec core. I promise! I'll also get > back to my Z80 core as soon as I've been able to flatten out my > synthesizer upgrade project. It'll be a couple of months, though. That's better for me anyway - I really don't have much free time at all at the moment. By the time I've got home, had something to eat and answered e-mail, I'm lucky if I get 6 hours sleep! Heh, I'm looking forward to going back to Uni so I can get some sleep! :)) > > working with 3D graphics so it's probably best that I do things relating to > > graphics. Although it would make more sense to do something in 3D - but I > > can't think of anything that I could do well in the 7 months or so that > > I'll have in 3D! > > 3D Graphics is fine, but you won't learn 3D concepts in a 2D world. I agree, but I already have a reasonable concept of 3D. I'd like to demonstrate that but I can't think of anything I'd want to write other than a 3D engine - and I just do *not* have the time for that! But I'm thinking that if I use DirectDraw and OpenGL for 2D then it's still quite impressive - though not nearly as much... > > Whatever I choose to write, I've got a name for it. "Hard light". Why? > > Well, I know that Mike will be laughing about now. :)) > > I hope this isn't a reference to lighting one's own flatulence. ;-) No, though after the Chile Con Carne we had yesterday it could have been! :) It's to do with the Germans at this beer festival singing. The songs were all in English - but the Germans were singing in Swedish (or any language that isn't, in fact, English). I can't remember the song title now, but the chorus has the words "hard life" in it. However, not one German actually sang that and they sang many other words instead. "Hard light", "hard like", "hard drive" and "United States of America". :)) > Speaking of flatulence, I have a really cool patch on one of my > synthesizers that emits farts. There's a "wetness" knob, too. My wife and > I were in tears laughing! Want me to record an mp3 or two for your > amusement? Why not? I need all the amusement I can get when I'm working with Ada! :o > What's really interesting about it is that it's a modular synthesizer > "emulator" of sorts that behaves in the same fashion (and is configurable > just like) as a modular synthesizer of the early 70's. Check out > www.nordmodular.com. Cool. Is this a digital synth or an analog? I can't check at the moment as I have no 'net access! :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 13 02:49:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA67372 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 02:49:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: I'm free!! From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3945D240.1CE3BE36@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <000369ec9a216af3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006090932.LAA06011@pons.ac.upc.es> <001901bfd27a$0f810520$0100a8c0@nibble> <006701bfd39a$1be24060$d1098cd4@daves> <001d01bd964f$0c1dbc20$0100a8c0@lion> <3945D240.1CE3BE36@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:50:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Grr, that's annoying. Somebody has set the clock on my PC back by 2 years >(so if your mail-software sorts by date then there'll be a message at the >bottom of the list from me. Actually I noticed that before but I thought it could be a bug of my mail software since it only happened to some mails... Wait, maybe you sent the others from Eurocopter? >I know that it will have been 1 of 2 people, time to go kick arse! French guy kicking, sounds like your new favourite sport ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e fortune: cpu time/usefulness ratio too high -- core dumped. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 13 12:24:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA67990 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:28:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec project In-Reply-To: <3945E665.E4434DD0@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Better than... interpreted code? It's faster! > Yes, I know that - and so do all of you on the list. But the project tutors > won't know this... But you can prove it to them (by demonstration) > > Simple game of Space Invaders, Targ, etc... would demonstrate it - one > > emulated, one not. Make sure you log the results of the recompilation! > Hmm. By this, I assume that you mean one interpreted and one recompiled? Yup. > > > - How can I demonstrate that it is better than other methods? > > Use my emulator core (which IMHO is the fastest Z80 emulator out there) to > > demonstrate that it operates faster. > Okay, this is looking more and more likely now... :) You can argue, "Hey, this thing is coded in tight x86 assembly and the dynarec core is 3X faster!" > You have a point here. The problem here is that the other idea also > involves a sort of optimisation/transformation process which is also > difficult. Just get it working, and you can start putting the optimization in. > However, I'm thinking that dynamic recompilation could be more > impressive. I guess I should sit down this weekend and try out some code on > each one and see which one feels the best... Dynarec, dynarec.... ;-) > that isn't, in fact, English). I can't remember the song title now, but the > chorus has the words "hard life" in it. However, not one German actually > sang that and they sang many other words instead. "Hard light", "hard Might've been Kenny Loggin's "Heartlight"? > > synthesizers that emits farts. There's a "wetness" knob, too. My wife and > > I were in tears laughing! Want me to record an mp3 or two for your > > amusement? > Why not? I need all the amusement I can get when I'm working with Ada! :o I'll see what I can come up with... > > "emulator" of sorts that behaves in the same fashion (and is configurable > > just like) as a modular synthesizer of the early 70's. Check out > > www.nordmodular.com. > Cool. Is this a digital synth or an analog? I can't check at the moment as > I have no 'net access! :-/ It's an analog modeling digital synth. The UI for it is amazingly cool. You should download the demo version. You grab virtual wires and connect them to various inputs/outputs - just like a real modular. And it sounds great, too! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 14 00:12:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA68661 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39473024.7E2BDEB7@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:11:32 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec project References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Okay, this is looking more and more likely now... :) > > You can argue, "Hey, this thing is coded in tight x86 assembly and the > dynarec core is 3X faster!" Heh, and if I couldn't get the dynarec faster than your code then I can just use one of the other Z80 cores. ;)) > > You have a point here. The problem here is that the other idea also > > involves a sort of optimisation/transformation process which is also > > difficult. > > Just get it working, and you can start putting the optimization in. That was the other project I was thinking about (the games one). > > However, I'm thinking that dynamic recompilation could be more > > impressive. I guess I should sit down this weekend and try out some code on > > each one and see which one feels the best... > > Dynarec, dynarec.... ;-) Yeeeeesssss maaaaaassssssttttteeeeerrrrr... ;) > > that isn't, in fact, English). I can't remember the song title now, but the > > chorus has the words "hard life" in it. However, not one German actually > > sang that and they sang many other words instead. "Hard light", "hard > > Might've been Kenny Loggin's "Heartlight"? No idea, but it better not have been else I was wrong! :o I'll see if I've got the song here (quite possible) and find out! > > Why not? I need all the amusement I can get when I'm working with Ada! :o > > I'll see what I can come up with... Cool. Done yet? > > Cool. Is this a digital synth or an analog? I can't check at the moment as > > I have no 'net access! :-/ > > It's an analog modeling digital synth. The UI for it is amazingly > cool. You should download the demo version. You grab virtual wires and > connect them to various inputs/outputs - just like a real modular. And it > sounds great, too! If it's not too big then I'll give it a go! I'll have to let my friend know about that though - he's really into synths (the anolog ones, he doesn't like the digital so much). He quite likes the Rebirth program thing as well... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 14 04:37:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA69072 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:37:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec project From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3945E665.E4434DD0@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a025234c400_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <3945E665.E4434DD0@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:45:31 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >No, though after the Chile Con Carne we had yesterday it could have been! >:) I'm quite surprised that you survived my chili, not to mention that monster garlic the day before ;-) I certainly can tell you now that Neil is not a vampire! ;-) >It's to do with the Germans at this beer festival singing. I thought you wanted to keep that a secret... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Goldenstern's Rules: (1) Always hire a rich attorney (2) Never buy from a rich salesman. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 14 05:05:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA69119 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:05:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <394774B7.722E926A@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:04:07 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec project References: <3945E665.E4434DD0@eurocopter.de> <00036a025234c400_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I'm quite surprised that you survived my chili, not to mention that monster > garlic the day before ;-) As I told you, the British have stomachs made of steel. Really, we're used to hot food. Right guys (given that about half of this list is made up of people from Britain!)? Indian food is in fact the #1 food in Britain right now. We have, in fact, invented Indian meals that have made their way back to India. The actual #1 food is "Chicken Tikka Masala" - which was also created in Britain! :) > I certainly can tell you now that Neil is not a vampire! ;-) Maybe, but when I'm at Uni I almost certainly evolve a sleeping pattern similar to one. :) > >It's to do with the Germans at this beer festival singing. > > I thought you wanted to keep that a secret... I did - and then I realised that I wasn't one of those guys singing! :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 01:45:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA79917 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <394F2D8B.A6D5CC8E@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:38:35 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) References: <3945E665.E4434DD0@eurocopter.de> <00036a025234c400_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <394774B7.722E926A@eurocopter.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, So, I have good and bad news. The bad news is that I won't actually be able to do my dynarec at Uni because my tutor has accepted the one I suggested and I (apparently) cannot change. Bugger. However, this does leave me with slightly more free time and so I can still work on one in my own time anyway - so it's probably for the best. Besides, I'm not legally able to release the dynarec afterwards if I wrote it for my Uni project - because the University owns 50% of the copyright. And that's the same for every Uni in the UK - don't know about the US. So, all in all, it's probably a blessing in disguise. Anyway, as promised, I sat down this weekend to think about a dynarec. I think I've come up with a rather strange approach that may in fact work quite well. I haven't started to implement it, I just got some ideas together - which I find is most of my normal programming tasks anyway. One thing I found myself doing at the start is writing a static recompiler - that certainly isn't what I wanted to write, but I do think I'll be doing some research into this area next year. It's possible I may have discovered a good method but I'll wait and see what happens when I actually implement it... Okay, so it's clear that you need a code emitter. This is the thing that outputs the code for the destination CPU - a x86 CPU in my case. It's also in the emitter where I thought I would optimise - maybe not the best place to put it but it struck me as the most obvious place. Thinking back at it, it isn't the best place at all. Let's say that register A contains 56h. My optimiser knows this and so doesn't bother to change register A to make sure it *does* contain 56h. A simple optimisation. But what happens if I'm in a loop and the next time around register A doesn't contain 56h? I'd get some screwy results because my generated code would be correct and wouldn't be marked for recompilation. So I've scrapped that idea and I'll think more about optimisation at some later point. Anyway, I've discovered most code layers will remain the same between different CPUs. The only layers that would need changing would be the translation and emitting layers - and these can be merged into the same layer quite easily. This would work quite nicely. My main problem now is this: Let's say I generate a block of code. I need to execute that code so I jump into it. How do I get back into the dynarec core afterwards? This is the one thing I haven't sorted out in my head yet - I haven't found a good way to do it. So there we go. A nice, both thoughtful and relaxing, weekend. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 02:19:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA80103 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:24:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <394F2D8B.A6D5CC8E@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > So, I have good and bad news. The bad news is that I won't actually be able > to do my dynarec at Uni because my tutor has accepted the one I suggested > and I (apparently) cannot change. That blows the donkey. ;-( > anyway - so it's probably for the best. Besides, I'm not legally able to > release the dynarec afterwards if I wrote it for my Uni project - because > the University owns 50% of the copyright. And that's the same for every Uni > in the UK - don't know about the US. So, all in all, it's probably a > blessing in disguise. That's fucked. In the US, what you do is yours. > One thing I found myself doing at the start is writing a static recompiler > - that certainly isn't what I wanted to write, but I do think I'll be doing > some research into this area next year. It's possible I may have discovered > a good method but I'll wait and see what happens when I actually implement > it... Really, a static recompiler is just a dynamic recompiler with preinformation about what's going on. ;-) Or depth traversal! > in the emitter where I thought I would optimise - maybe not the best place > to put it but it struck me as the most obvious place. Thinking back at it, > it isn't the best place at all. Let's say that register A contains 56h. My > optimiser knows this and so doesn't bother to change register A to make > sure it *does* contain 56h. A simple optimisation. But what happens if I'm > in a loop and the next time around register A doesn't contain 56h? You're screwed! ;-) > I'd get > some screwy results because my generated code would be correct and wouldn't > be marked for recompilation. So I've scrapped that idea and I'll think more > about optimisation at some later point. Yes, probably a good idea. It'll be tough to optimize the X86 code unless it's big time sloppy. But you may want to put your efforts in to optimizing the input. That might yield better results initially. > My main problem now is this: Let's say I generate a block of code. I need > to execute that code so I jump into it. How do I get back into the dynarec > core afterwards? This is the one thing I haven't sorted out in my head yet > - I haven't found a good way to do it. Well, remember my approach of storing the PC or return address when it's time to exit? I also check timing after every instruction (or later on at the end of every terminal). If I'm out of time to execute, I bail out and store the returning PC. That way I can jump back to the point where I left off. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 02:24:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA80116 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006200928.LAA26039@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <394F2D8B.A6D5CC8E@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 20, 2000 10:38:35 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:28:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > So, I have good and bad news. The bad news is that I won't actually be able > to do my dynarec at Uni because my tutor has accepted the one I suggested > and I (apparently) cannot change. Bugger. However, this does leave me with > slightly more free time and so I can still work on one in my own time > anyway - so it's probably for the best. Besides, I'm not legally able to > release the dynarec afterwards if I wrote it for my Uni project - because > the University owns 50% of the copyright. And that's the same for every Uni > in the UK - don't know about the US. So, all in all, it's probably a > blessing in disguise. > The same in Spain (or I think so). But what is the problem? if you don't sell it you shouldn't have any problem. And I'm sure nor the University nor my director will say nothing about what I do with my project. In any case you still have the 50% of the copyright so it's not only Uni decision. > Anyway, as promised, I sat down this weekend to think about a dynarec. I > think I've come up with a rather strange approach that may in fact work > quite well. I haven't started to implement it, I just got some ideas > together - which I find is most of my normal programming tasks anyway. > I feel afraid about what you can have invented. ;) > One thing I found myself doing at the start is writing a static recompiler > - that certainly isn't what I wanted to write, but I do think I'll be doing > some research into this area next year. It's possible I may have discovered > a good method but I'll wait and see what happens when I actually implement > it... > A static recompiler? Ummm! An easy way is extend a bit the idea of NG, just compile as many code as you can at start. I think he calls it 'depth traversal'. Then at execution time compile the unresolved jump address. > My main problem now is this: Let's say I generate a block of code. I need > to execute that code so I jump into it. How do I get back into the dynarec > core afterwards? This is the one thing I haven't sorted out in my head yet > - I haven't found a good way to do it. > You have checkpoints somewhere in your block (one at the end of the block or more than one to check timing) that jump out to the core. You also check for address if they are translated or not. > So there we go. A nice, both thoughtful and relaxing, weekend. :) > Well I was playing FF Tactics, so I can say the same ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 02:39:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA80139 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:39:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006200937.LAA26259@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 20, 2000 02:24:49 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:37:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > anyway - so it's probably for the best. Besides, I'm not legally able to > > release the dynarec afterwards if I wrote it for my Uni project - because > > the University owns 50% of the copyright. And that's the same for every Uni > > in the UK - don't know about the US. So, all in all, it's probably a > > blessing in disguise. > > That's fucked. In the US, what you do is yours. > You are right, but it has a bit of sense if you think theorically you are using the Uni resources (although you also pay for them) and sometimes your project it's part of a greater university project. But when you do all the work by yourself and it isn't related to the university it has no sense. > > One thing I found myself doing at the start is writing a static recompiler > > - that certainly isn't what I wanted to write, but I do think I'll be doing > > some research into this area next year. It's possible I may have discovered > > a good method but I'll wait and see what happens when I actually implement > > it... > > Really, a static recompiler is just a dynamic recompiler with > preinformation about what's going on. ;-) Or depth traversal! > It seems I hit the point ;) > Yes, probably a good idea. It'll be tough to optimize the X86 code unless > it's big time sloppy. But you may want to put your efforts in to > optimizing the input. That might yield better results initially. > Mainly optimizing flag evaluation that usually means a lot of emitted and not useful code. The other optimizations come later in my thoughts. BTW. Has NG the DRMZ80 code? I can't remember if he was on the list at that time. Or perhaps it's better he doesn't have it so he can work his own ideas and later take a look at it. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 02:43:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA80152 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <394F3C9F.1386AFAB@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:42:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > So, I have good and bad news. The bad news is that I won't actually be able > > to do my dynarec at Uni because my tutor has accepted the one I suggested > > and I (apparently) cannot change. > > That blows the donkey. ;-( And donkey blowing is bad, m'kay? :) > That's fucked. In the US, what you do is yours. That's better. I can see why they do it - it stops people from making money out of - what they consider to be - university work. And then they can take the project, if it's good, and research it or just generally try and make money. While I can see *why* they do it, I don't actually like it. That's why this is probably a blessing in disguise. I'd have released what I did anyway, it just wouldn't be legal - and they could definitely sue if I made money out of it. Yes, it's crap - but you have to agree to it when you enrol on the course. It's on the enrolement form - I prefer to say "contract". :-/ > Really, a static recompiler is just a dynamic recompiler with > preinformation about what's going on. ;-) Or depth traversal! Yes, I agree. It just enables the opportunity for some really cool optimisation tricks! That's basically my whole plan. :) > > in the emitter where I thought I would optimise - maybe not the best place > > to put it but it struck me as the most obvious place. Thinking back at it, > > it isn't the best place at all. Let's say that register A contains 56h. My > > optimiser knows this and so doesn't bother to change register A to make > > sure it *does* contain 56h. A simple optimisation. But what happens if I'm > > in a loop and the next time around register A doesn't contain 56h? > > You're screwed! ;-) Yeah, I know, but let's get back to the code. Oh, you were talking about the code. Ah... ;) > > I'd get > > some screwy results because my generated code would be correct and wouldn't > > be marked for recompilation. So I've scrapped that idea and I'll think more > > about optimisation at some later point. > > Yes, probably a good idea. It'll be tough to optimize the X86 code unless > it's big time sloppy. But you may want to put your efforts in to > optimizing the input. That might yield better results initially. That's an option I'd thought of but hadn't looked into. It just means you have to have more knowledge of the CPU you're emulating, but that's probably no bad thing. Yes, I'll look into this more this week. I love Germany for one reason. Religious. And they pick great days for holidays. Not a Monday or a Friday (although they have those too), but Tuesdays and Thursdays. I've got one this Thursday and because my company knows that people won't work on the Friday, we've got that off too. So a long weekend - and some things to research into. Sounds like I know what I'll be doing! Oh yes, and drinking. There's quite a high possibility of that too! :o > Well, remember my approach of storing the PC or return address when it's > time to exit? I also check timing after every instruction (or later on at > the end of every terminal). If I'm out of time to execute, I bail out and > store the returning PC. That way I can jump back to the point where I left > off. Okay, that just means inserting timing code into the emitted code. That's possible, but is that the best way? Hmm, I guess so - I certainly can't think of anything better right now. Of course, another way would be to know how many cycles WOULD have passed - that would mean you don't have to do anything with the emitted code, you just know when you'd have to break out. But I'm sure that idea would break horribly when I'm looping... Hmm, again, I need more research. It's times like now when you want a skeleton dynarec CPU core just so you can try out new ideas! Neil. PS Definitely off-topic, but I'm interested. In Britain, the thing you turn on to get water out of (think bath, sink, shower) is called a "tap". I've been told that it's not called that in America, but I've got no idea what it actually IS called. So... what is it actually called? :o --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 02:56:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA80174 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <394F3FB2.891E28A8@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:56:02 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) References: <200006200928.LAA26039@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > The same in Spain (or I think so). But what is the problem? if you don't sell > it you shouldn't have any problem. And I'm sure nor the University nor my > director will say nothing about what I do with my project. In any case you > still have the 50% of the copyright so it's not only Uni decision. No, but by the same token, 50% of it isn't yours - so if you want to release it, you have to ask. And they can, legally, say no. I'd rather not get into that situation, so I'm probably best off as I am. Besides, it'll probably take me less time so I can do my dynarec stuff anyway. And I had to write the routines anyway, so I'm not really losing out... :) > > Anyway, as promised, I sat down this weekend to think about a dynarec. I > > think I've come up with a rather strange approach that may in fact work > > quite well. I haven't started to implement it, I just got some ideas > > together - which I find is most of my normal programming tasks anyway. > > I feel afraid about what you can have invented. ;) I'd be afraid too if I was me. Hang on, I am me. AARGH! ;)) > A static recompiler? Ummm! An easy way is extend a bit the idea of NG, just > compile as many code as you can at start. I think he calls it 'depth traversal'. > Then at execution time compile the unresolved jump address. This is certainly the idea I had, though the good thing is that if I know what changes when a loop is called, it means I can optimise more. Yes, I think about optimisations a lot. That comes from the Z80 you know. :) > You have checkpoints somewhere in your block (one at the end of the block or > more than one to check timing) that jump out to the core. You also check for > address if they are translated or not. Thought of that, this can cause problems with timing. Not sure that it's so important with the 8-bit CPUs - but it certainly could be with the more modern ones... > > So there we go. A nice, both thoughtful and relaxing, weekend. :) > > Well I was playing FF Tactics, so I can say the same ;) Well I didn't do a lot at all, so I sort of laid on my bed (my computer is next to it, I've got my priorities straight!) and either programmed or played games (which I haven't done in such a looooong time it's unbelievable - it's certainly 9 months since I've played a game for more than 1/2 hour!)... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 02:59:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA80184 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <394F40A5.2E19E85A@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:00:05 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) References: <200006200937.LAA26259@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, My god, activity on the list again! It's been... almost a week now. Mummy, I'm scared! ;) > You are right, but it has a bit of sense if you think theorically you are > using the Uni resources (although you also pay for them) and sometimes your > project it's part of a greater university project. But when you do all > the work by yourself and it isn't related to the university it has no sense. I agree, but what can you do? And no, not going to University is not a valid answer... ;) > Mainly optimizing flag evaluation that usually means a lot of emitted and > not useful code. The other optimizations come later in my thoughts. Agreed, but you have to decide whether to do that on the input (original) or output (emitted) code. I'd do it on the input code myself... > BTW. Has NG the DRMZ80 code? I can't remember if he was on the list at > that time. Or perhaps it's better he doesn't have it so he can work > his own ideas and later take a look at it. No idea, all my e-mails are at home. But I agree, it's best that I don't look. I don't want to look. And that's if I have it. I'd rather see what I come up with myself - and then you can all laugh at the code. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 03:09:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA80209 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 03:09:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006201013.MAA02610@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <394F40A5.2E19E85A@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 20, 2000 12:00:05 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:13:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > My god, activity on the list again! It's been... almost a week now. Mummy, > I'm scared! ;) > Yes, it was incredible a full week without off topic mails ;) How could you stand with out post something? ;)) > > BTW. Has NG the DRMZ80 code? I can't remember if he was on the list at > > that time. Or perhaps it's better he doesn't have it so he can work > > his own ideas and later take a look at it. > > No idea, all my e-mails are at home. But I agree, it's best that I don't > look. I don't want to look. And that's if I have it. I'd rather see what I > come up with myself - and then you can all laugh at the code. ;) > I like more vampirize the ideas from others and perhaps add my owns, but was the matter!, not everyone is like me. ;) So for my own interest keep us well informed of your progress. ;) BTW I have begun to move things to start a MegaCD emu (mainly demanding information). I hope I will find enough time to work on it. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 03:24:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA80235 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 03:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006201023.MAA10486@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <394F3FB2.891E28A8@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 20, 2000 11:56:02 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:23:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > So there we go. A nice, both thoughtful and relaxing, weekend. :) > > > > Well I was playing FF Tactics, so I can say the same ;) > > Well I didn't do a lot at all, so I sort of laid on my bed (my computer is > next to it, I've got my priorities straight!) and either programmed or > played games (which I haven't done in such a looooong time it's > unbelievable - it's certainly 9 months since I've played a game for more > than 1/2 hour!)... > I usually spend more time playing than this, but last weeks I didn't played so much and now I have time I can't stop. It's making me difficult to continue with the work I wanted to do about dynarec. But it is that I have to kill all those Holy Stone Knights!!! ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 04:44:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA80338 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 04:43:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:45:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > anyway - so it's probably for the best. Besides, I'm not legally able to > > release the dynarec afterwards if I wrote it for my Uni project - because > > the University owns 50% of the copyright. And that's the same for every Uni > > in the UK - don't know about the US. So, all in all, it's probably a > > blessing in disguise. > That's fucked. In the US, what you do is yours. Thought now would be a good time to fill everyone in on my plans. I am doing a dynamic recompiler as my 3rd year project next year. My title is submitted and a supervisor found. I'm intending to focus on the CPU dynarec side of things, developing this for another emulator already in existence. At the moment I have 3 main possible areas to focus on (I'll probably only pursue one): 1) ARM -> x86 dynarec for use with Archie (Acorn RISC OS computer emulator) the author has agreed to support me as much as he can though for various reasons I can't have access to the actual source so would have to develop in some kind of test harness. An alternative would be to use the Linux based open source ArcEm which is less compatible but still pretty good. Julian's is very good but I hope to develop on his intermediate representation and implement some kind of memory management and self-modifying code handling as well as handling the other modes of the processor so that it can be used for a real system. 2) MIPS -> x86 dynarec for use with FPSE (PlayStation emulator) the author has agreed to support me with latest code and as much help as possible. Given that apparently it's just started running Tomb Raider 3 the compatability looks pretty good and their current dynarec is pretty primitive and in need of development. 3) 6502/Z80 -> ARM dynarec for use with emus based on Marat's cores particularly those under RISC OS and Psion palmtops and also my own interpretive Gameboy emulator which is nearing completion. All are pretty appealing and I need to make a decision soon. I have a meeting with my supervisor sometime early next week when my exams are (finally) over. Any comments would be appreciated. As for copyright of the project, it didn't seem to hurt Generator which was written at Warwick 3 years back or V2600 which was done a few years before that so I don't see any problems. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 05:45:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA80418 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 05:45:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> Message-ID: <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:51:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Thought now would be a good time to fill everyone in on my plans. I am doing >a dynamic recompiler as my 3rd year project next year. My title is submitted >and a supervisor found. Great! >1) ARM -> x86 dynarec for use with Archie (Acorn RISC OS computer emulator) >the author has agreed to support me as much as he can though for various >reasons I can't have access to the actual source so would have to develop in >some kind of test harness. That could complicate things a bit, but I really like to see a faster Archie emulator! >An alternative would be to use the Linux based >open source ArcEm which is less compatible but still pretty good. Have you tried it? Somehow I was even unable to compile it and I think no-one ever tested RISC OS on ArcEm! The author only uses it to emulate ARMLinux, but I don't get the idea of emulating Linux on Linux... >Julian's >is very good but I hope to develop on his intermediate representation and >implement some kind of memory management and self-modifying code handling as >well as handling the other modes of the processor so that it can be used for >a real system. Sounds like a good idea, especially when used in Archie ;-) >2) MIPS -> x86 dynarec for use with FPSE (PlayStation emulator) the author >has agreed to support me with latest code and as much help as possible. IMHO the R3000A will be the easiest to do and you could work with the real source since it's open source. >Given that apparently it's just started running Tomb Raider 3 the >compatability looks pretty good Indeed. I think of the freeware emulators it's the most promissing one. >and their current dynarec is pretty >primitive and in need of development. Agreed, Neil's two layer approach with opcode structure passing would lead to much cleaner and better optimised code. >3) 6502/Z80 -> ARM dynarec for use with emus based on Marat's cores I'm not sure if you'll find that many fans of Marat's cores on this list... >particularly those under RISC OS and Psion palmtops and also my own >interpretive Gameboy emulator which is nearing completion. That might be the easier start for you since you already wrote a 6502 interpretive emulator in ARM code, but the Z80 will be much more complicated. >All are pretty appealing and I need to make a decision soon. I have a >meeting with my supervisor sometime early next week when my exams are >(finally) over. Any comments would be appreciated. OK, here are my comments: * 6502->ARM should be the easiest task for you since you know both processors well. * Z80->ARM is more complicated than it might seem at first. * MIPS->x86 should be "fairly easy" once you know enough about both processors and use a clean approach. * ARM->x86 surely is the most complicated one, at least in my opinion. If you really want to do more than one then I'd recommend 6502->ARM and MIPS- >x86. If you want to do just one and compare different emulation methods as you once wrote I'd recommend MIPS->x86. I hope the others write some comments too... >Dave -- M.I.K.e You will be Told about it Tomorrow. Go Home and Prepare Thyself. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 06:15:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA80457 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 06:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <394F6E4D.7B9C6FDE@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:14:53 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) References: <200006201013.MAA02610@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > BTW I have begun to move things to start a MegaCD emu (mainly demanding > information). I hope I will find enough time to work on it. Ah, so yet another person who requires a good 68k CPU core, eh? :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 06:43:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA80496 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 06:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <394F74C1.2EFB47B@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:42:25 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > That's fucked. In the US, what you do is yours. > > Thought now would be a good time to fill everyone in on my plans. I am doing > a dynamic recompiler as my 3rd year project next year. Grr! And after I've just found out I can't... ;-/ > My title is submitted > and a supervisor found. I'm intending to focus on the CPU dynarec side of > things, developing this for another emulator already in existence. At the > moment I have 3 main possible areas to focus on (I'll probably only pursue > one): It's best just to concentrate on one. After me sitting (well, okay... more horizontal... okay, I was lying down!) and giving some thought, it's going to take one hell of a time to create a dynarec for anything more complex than a Z80. And, having said that, even a Z80 is going to take some time. Heh, and here's me - wanting to write a 68k dynarec. :) > 1) ARM -> x86 dynarec for use with Archie (Acorn RISC OS computer emulator) > the author has agreed to support me as much as he can though for various > reasons I can't have access to the actual source so would have to develop in > some kind of test harness. An alternative would be to use the Linux based > open source ArcEm which is less compatible but still pretty good. Julian's > is very good but I hope to develop on his intermediate representation and > implement some kind of memory management and self-modifying code handling as > well as handling the other modes of the processor so that it can be used for > a real system. I know one person who'd like this. He's on this mailing list - and he's German. Can anybody guess who this could be? ;) > 2) MIPS -> x86 dynarec for use with FPSE (PlayStation emulator) the author > has agreed to support me with latest code and as much help as possible. > Given that apparently it's just started running Tomb Raider 3 the > compatability looks pretty good and their current dynarec is pretty > primitive and in need of development. This could be cool though. I don't own a PSX - nor any PSX games - but this could be very nice. I have seen Bleem! running on my own machine (although *I* don't have a PSX, my friends do!) and I'm not impressed. Speed is pathetic (it'd be brilliant if it ran at one speed, not a range from 25%->175% of the original machines speed!) and compatibility is poor. I've only heard good things about VGS and I have seen that running on somebody elses machine - it seemed to work pretty nicely. But the PSX CPU is still a 33MHz RISC CPU and that takes a lot of the performance away from a PC. So this could be nice. > 3) 6502/Z80 -> ARM dynarec for use with emus based on Marat's cores > particularly those under RISC OS and Psion palmtops and also my own > interpretive Gameboy emulator which is nearing completion. Although very nice, I'm not sure that we actually need the extra speed this provides. You'd have a harder time justifying these processors than you would the others. I will try to write a Z80 dynarec core myself soon, I think. Just so I have something to work with and to try out new ideas. But I can't say that I believe it'll be worth releasing... > All are pretty appealing and I need to make a decision soon. I have a > meeting with my supervisor sometime early next week when my exams are > (finally) over. Any comments would be appreciated. As for copyright of the > project, it didn't seem to hurt Generator which was written at Warwick 3 > years back or V2600 which was done a few years before that so I don't see > any problems. Yes, but neither of those projects were new technologies. Dynarec is a new, and mostly under-explored, technology. It's a more risky area. Universities have taken students projects before. One example I can think of is what the police use now for fingerprint analysis. That was based on a students project. Or that could be complete crap and it's actually something else. Heh, I know that some technology the police use now (maybe the face modelling stuff?) was taken by a University from a student. Anyway, I'm not going to say it *will* happen. I'm just saying that it's a possibility and, as such, it's probably a blessing that I don't do it for them. I'd say that 99.9% of the time, Universities don't do anything. But there *is* that 0.01% chance that they do something I don't like. Mind you, I can't think what. Anyway, I'm just trying to cheer myself up because I've been told I can't do it now... :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 07:01:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA80520 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 06:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:08:07 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Message-ID: <20000620150806.A1041@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com>; from M.I.K.e on Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:51:54PM +0200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:51:54PM +0200, M.I.K.e wrote: > > >An alternative would be to use the Linux based > >open source ArcEm which is less compatible but still pretty good. > > Have you tried it? Somehow I was even unable to compile it and I think no-one > ever tested RISC OS on ArcEm! The author only uses it to emulate ARMLinux, > but I don't get the idea of emulating Linux on Linux... I've certainly tried RISC OS on ArcEm - it works fine, albeit a little slowly. Actually I have a half-finished hack of ArcEm which uses the SDL library rather than X for graphics, which speeds it up a tiny bit... but the mouse doesn't work properly yet. I'll probably release it somewhere when it's done, or send some patches back to Dave Gilbert or something. I'm not sure if compiling it works straight off, I think I had to hack something a bit... can't remember what exactly though. To get RISC OS running you just have to switch the bundled ARM Linux ROM for a RISC OS 3.1 image. If you read the documentation (carefully ;-)) it's blatantly obvious that ArcEm was written to run RISC OS... Oh, and I've fixed a bug or two in ARMphetamine and rewritten some of the interpretive emulator in assembly language - it now goes, ooh, about 1% faster with recompilation turned off and it's a tiny bit more stable with recompilation turned on. Which is nice. Updates on my dynarec.com page. Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 07:06:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA80541 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:06:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <394F7A56.2B803801@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:06:14 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >and their current dynarec is pretty > >primitive and in need of development. > > Agreed, Neil's two layer approach with opcode structure passing would lead to > much cleaner and better optimised code. And more to the point - why try it any other way? In my mind, not only is this the most obvious way to do it (I can't think of another way to do it!), it also makes writing another core so much easier! > >3) 6502/Z80 -> ARM dynarec for use with emus based on Marat's cores > > I'm not sure if you'll find that many fans of Marat's cores on this list... Agreed. We like compatibility and speed. I, for one, prefer compatibility. Speed can come later. And, AFAIK, NB's MZ80 core is the fastest and most compatible CPU core out there! > That might be the easier start for you since you already wrote a 6502 > interpretive emulator in ARM code, but the Z80 will be much more complicated. I agree, but even the Z80 is simpler than the other suggested CPUs... > * ARM->x86 surely is the most complicated one, at least in my opinion. I actually reckon x86 -> 6502 is the most difficult... ;) > If you really want to do more than one then I'd recommend 6502->ARM and MIPS- > >x86. If you want to do just one and compare different emulation methods as > you once wrote I'd recommend MIPS->x86. Why not write two CPU cores? One dynarec and one interpreted? > I hope the others write some comments too... I have! I have! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 07:42:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA80591 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002301bfdac6$c0c0bde0$5f0b063e@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:37:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Have you tried it? Somehow I was even unable to compile it and I think no-one > ever tested RISC OS on ArcEm! The author only uses it to emulate ARMLinux, > but I don't get the idea of emulating Linux on Linux... I know the author has has 65Host (BBC emu for you poor RISCOS-less folk) running on RISC OS 3 on his Alpha. I don't know whether Elite would work though. As for porting it to Windows I've never tried... yet. > IMHO the R3000A will be the easiest to do and you could work with the real > source since it's open source. Yeah it is tempting and is a fairly long running project which bodes well. I know nothing about MIPS though (again, yet) and will be looking at getting that book you mentioned to me previously Mike. > Agreed, Neil's two layer approach with opcode structure passing would lead to > much cleaner and better optimised code. On that subject, is there any chance I could get hold of a copy of the DRMZ80 that was sent out on the list before? > I'm not sure if you'll find that many fans of Marat's cores on this list... Probably not! :o) I agree they're a bit shite but they are easy to use and pretty portable. > That might be the easier start for you since you already wrote a 6502 > interpretive emulator in ARM code, but the Z80 will be much more complicated. I've been looking at an interpretive ARM asm Z80-alike emu for my GB emu and it is a bit nasty dynarec could only be worse. > If you really want to do more than one then I'd recommend 6502->ARM and MIPS- > >x86. If you want to do just one and compare different emulation methods as > you once wrote I'd recommend MIPS->x86. ARM is where the heart is which tempts me to do the ARM->x86 but a playstation emulator would be cool too (I need to research MIPS architecture) and from an academic point of view if I only do one I need to be able to demonstrate as many dynarec features on it as possible i.e. redundant flag removal on an ARM would be silly with the optional flag setting natively but I think there's a similar problem under MIPS too. 6502->ARM could be the way to go for that kind of thing but then again if I spent this Summer doing a 6502->ARM I may not have time to do the MIPS/ARM->x86. Decisions, decisions... > I hope the others write some comments too... Me too! :o) Back to revision, concurrent processes and formal methods tomorrow, should be a laugh a minute! As an aside, does anyone know of an emulator written to take advantage of a multiprocessor machine? Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 07:42:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA80587 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002401bfdac6$c3030cc0$5f0b063e@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <394F74C1.2EFB47B@eurocopter.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:48:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Grr! And after I've just found out I can't... ;-/ Well after some other guy was doing a NES emu in Java I thought sod it to the other dull stuff on offer, I have to dump on his project from a height. > It's best just to concentrate on one. After me sitting (well, okay... more > horizontal... okay, I was lying down!) and giving some thought, it's going > to take one hell of a time to create a dynarec for anything more complex > than a Z80. And, having said that, even a Z80 is going to take some time. > Heh, and here's me - wanting to write a 68k dynarec. :) 6502 will be nice for rehearsing simple stuff but then I want something impressive to demonstrate! :o) > I know one person who'd like this. He's on this mailing list - and he's > German. Can anybody guess who this could be? ;) RISC OS rules! Well, used to about 5 years back. :o( > Although very nice, I'm not sure that we actually need the extra speed this > provides. You'd have a harder time justifying these processors than you > would the others. Not really, I think the simplicity of instructions is a strength in some ways in that it would allow me to investigate all the different methods (threading a la generator, different IRs, multistage translation as well as many different optimisations) without masses of complex instructions getting in the way. These methods could then be applied to more complex and speed-needing projects later. > Yes, but neither of those projects were new technologies. Maybe, but V2600 was from 96 and I don't know what state Stella was in back then but it can't have been too good? Generator is also pretty much unique in it's approach (I maybe wrong on this one)? > it's a > possibility and, as such, it's probably a blessing that I don't do it for > them. Possibly, but by that argument you don't want to do anything useful or potentially sellable as the uni might rip you off! :o) The way I figured it I'm never again likely to get the chance to spend 3-4 months of my life working on a project I want to do regardless of whether it's profitable or good for my business/company. >Anyway, I'm just trying to cheer myself up because I've > been told I can't do it now... :-/ I know what you mean, I was turned down initially but refused to do cache block analysis or microlanguages for mobile devices, made up my own project and brief and went round most of the department until I found someone who agreed. Felt really good. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 07:52:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA80613 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:52:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <003901bfdac8$3702ada0$5f0b063e@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <20000620150806.A1041@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:00:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I've certainly tried RISC OS on ArcEm - it works fine, albeit a little > slowly. Actually I have a half-finished hack of ArcEm which uses the SDL > library rather than X for graphics, which speeds it up a tiny bit... but > the mouse doesn't work properly yet. I'll probably release it somewhere > when it's done, or send some patches back to Dave Gilbert or something. Glad to hear it, that's two people have had it working then! ;o) I'll give it a go after exams. I get the distinct impression that I'm going to have to install Linux sooner or later, call me a cowardy-custard if you like, but I'm scared! :o) > If you read the documentation (carefully ;-)) it's blatantly obvious that > ArcEm was written to run RISC OS... Definitely! David was just covering his back, he wouldn't give me a screenshot of it running RISC OS when i wanted one for my Acorn Emulation page so I've got a naff picture of ARMLinux booting instead! :o) > Oh, and I've fixed a bug or two in ARMphetamine and rewritten some of the > interpretive emulator in assembly language - it now goes, ooh, about 1% > faster with recompilation turned off and it's a tiny bit more stable with > recompilation turned on. Which is nice. Updates on my dynarec.com page. Cool! Every bit counts. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 11:46:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA80876 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <394F74C1.2EFB47B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a80765a557a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <394F74C1.2EFB47B@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:15:04 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Grr! And after I've just found out I can't... ;-/ That's a pitty :-( >It's best just to concentrate on one. After me sitting (well, okay... more >horizontal... okay, I was lying down!) and giving some thought, it's going >to take one hell of a time to create a dynarec for anything more complex >than a Z80. And, having said that, even a Z80 is going to take some time. >Heh, and here's me - wanting to write a 68k dynarec. :) This is the proof: anybody on this list must be totally nuts - oops, that includes me... >I know one person who'd like this. He's on this mailing list - and he's >German. A German on this British dominated list? That must be a real madman! >Can anybody guess who this could be? ;) How many guesses do I get? ;-) >But the PSX CPU is still a >33MHz RISC CPU and that takes a lot of the performance away from a PC. So >this could be nice. And it is ideal for dynamic recompilation because it's so simple. [6502, Z80] >Although very nice, I'm not sure that we actually need the extra speed this >provides. You'd have a harder time justifying these processors than you >would the others. Probably right. Isn't there someone working on a Z80 dynarec? ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e "The eleventh commandment was `Thou Shalt Compute' or `Thou Shalt Not Compute' -- I forget which." -- Epigrams in Programming, ACM SIGPLAN Sept. 1982 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 11:46:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA80881 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:46:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <394F7A56.2B803801@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a80a0fa3913_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <394F7A56.2B803801@eurocopter.de> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:26:59 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >And more to the point - why try it any other way? In my mind, not only is >this the most obvious way to do it (I can't think of another way to do >it!), it also makes writing another core so much easier! Well, most of the code I've seen so far (excluding Neil's DMZ80 of course) is simply a modfied interpreter with code generation right in the decoder - yuk! It's sure that opcode structures lead to a cleaner and better maitainable code and also better optimisation in the generated code. >I agree, but even the Z80 is simpler than the other suggested CPUs... I guess you don't know much about the MIPS, do you? The MIPS I is probably one of the simplest architectures I know. Later generations are more complicated, but the R3000A used in the PSX is really simple and doesn't even have an FPU. I think MIPS has flags for FP operations but all integer stuff works without any condition codes which makes the dynarec easier. >I actually reckon x86 -> 6502 is the most difficult... ;) Oh shit! How do you compile a PADDD with just one 8-bit accumulator? ;-) >> I hope the others write some comments too... >I have! I have! Typical reaction for you ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 11:46:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA80896 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <002301bfdac6$c0c0bde0$5f0b063e@daves> Message-ID: <00036a80da915fda_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <002301bfdac6$c0c0bde0$5f0b063e@daves> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:43:05 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Yeah it is tempting and is a fairly long running project which bodes well. I >know nothing about MIPS though (again, yet) and will be looking at getting >that book you mentioned to me previously Mike. Just in case you forgot the details or others are interested: For a first impression of MIPS check chapter 3 of "Computer Organization & Design" by David Patterson and John Hennessy. One of the best books about MIPS (at least according to John Hennessy, one of the designers of MIPS) is "See MIPS Run" by Dominic Sweetman. If you go for the ARM you should try to get "ARM System Architecture" by Steve Furber, but wait till the end of August since the 2nd edition should be available then. >I've been looking at an interpretive ARM asm Z80-alike emu for my GB emu and >it is a bit nasty dynarec could only be worse. I'm afraid so... >ARM is where the heart is which tempts me to do the ARM->x86 Understandable... >but a playstation emulator would be cool too Indeed, and if Bero is willing to cooperate this would be really cool! >(I need to research MIPS architecture) It's relatively easy. The cache handling is a bit weird but I'm not sure if that is needed in the PSX. I think I also read that the R3000A doesn't include the MMU, but I might be wrong. >and from an academic point of view if I only do one I need to >be able to demonstrate as many dynarec features on it as possible i.e. >redundant flag removal on an ARM would be silly with the optional flag >setting natively but I think there's a similar problem under MIPS too. Yeah, MIPS doesn't have any flags at least not for integer. >6502->ARM could be the way to go for that kind of thing but then again if I >spent this Summer doing a 6502->ARM I may not have time to do the >MIPS/ARM->x86. Decisions, decisions... I know it's hard... >As an aside, does anyone know of an emulator written to take advantage of a >multiprocessor machine? I'm not sure. Do you plan to buy a dual board or is it for your project? ;-) I think NB wrote something about that topic on the list some time ago, concluding that you could handle different things like processor, graphics and sound in separate threads but the emulation of all processors should be in one thread due to the coordination between these. Did I remember that correctly or am I just writing crap? >Dave -- M.I.K.e "Now this is a totally brain damaged algorithm. Gag me with a smurfette." -- P. Buhr, Computer Science 354 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 11:46:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA80900 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <003901bfdac8$3702ada0$5f0b063e@daves> Message-ID: <00036a80e94c11e6_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <20000620150806.A1041@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> <003901bfdac8$3702ada0$5f0b063e@daves> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:47:12 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I get the distinct impression that I'm going to have to install Linux sooner >or later, call me a cowardy-custard if you like, but I'm scared! :o) And you haven't even installed BeOS yet! What really scares me is installing Windows ;-) >Definitely! David was just covering his back, he wouldn't give me a >screenshot of it running RISC OS when i wanted one for my Acorn Emulation >page so I've got a naff picture of ARMLinux booting instead! :o) Maybe he didn't want to provide any proof that his emulator can run illegal ROM copies? ;-) >Dave -- M.I.K.e "... all the modern inconveniences ..." -- Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:04:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA80930 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:10:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <200006200928.LAA26039@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > some research into this area next year. It's possible I may have discovered > > a good method but I'll wait and see what happens when I actually implement > A static recompiler? Ummm! An easy way is extend a bit the idea of NG, just I think you mean NB... ;-) > compile as many code as you can at start. I think he calls it 'depth > traversal'. Then at execution time compile the unresolved jump > address. Yep. When you hit a conditional terminal, you call the recompiler with that virtual address, and by the time you're done, every address has been recompiled. Of course it doesn't cover the case where jump tables are used, but that winds up falling out of the execution (the dynamic aspect). You can also pass hints to the recompiler as well. If you know the entry points of all the jump table addresses, just tell the recompiler to compile it up front. I'm also working on a way to save off the recompiled code in a generic form so that the original source material won't necessarily need to be used. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:07:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA80944 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:07:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:13:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <200006200937.LAA26259@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > That's fucked. In the US, what you do is yours. > You are right, but it has a bit of sense if you think theorically you are > using the Uni resources (although you also pay for them) and sometimes your Not necessarily. As an example, I went through compiler design theory (2 semesters) and used nothing but my own computers for the project. I also paid tuition and I didn't work with anyone else. If you're working on it with someone else that's one thing, but entirely different if you're on your own. That's just plain stupid! > > Yes, probably a good idea. It'll be tough to optimize the X86 code unless > > it's big time sloppy. But you may want to put your efforts in to > > optimizing the input. That might yield better results initially. > Mainly optimizing flag evaluation that usually means a lot of emitted and > not useful code. The other optimizations come later in my thoughts. You can do a lot of pre-flag evaluation on the source layer side of things. That's where the optimization is better spent. > BTW. Has NG the DRMZ80 code? I can't remember if he was on the list at > that time. Or perhaps it's better he doesn't have it so he can work > his own ideas and later take a look at it. I'll find the code and let everyone download it again. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:10:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA80959 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:16:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <394F3C9F.1386AFAB@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > money out of it. Yes, it's crap - but you have to agree to it when you > enrol on the course. It's on the enrolement form - I prefer to say > "contract". :-/ Then it's probably good that you didn't do a dynarec. > > Yes, probably a good idea. It'll be tough to optimize the X86 code unless > > it's big time sloppy. But you may want to put your efforts in to > > optimizing the input. That might yield better results initially. > That's an option I'd thought of but hadn't looked into. It just means you > have to have more knowledge of the CPU you're emulating, but that's > probably no bad thing. Yes, I'll look into this more this week. You might want to check out DRMZ80's source like you promised to do eons ago. ;-) > long weekend - and some things to research into. Sounds like I know what > I'll be doing! Oh yes, and drinking. There's quite a high possibility of > that too! :o Damnit... you guys are getting me excited about Dynarec stuff again and I'm not done with my existing project! Grrr..... But I think I want to start over again and do a 68K core. > > Well, remember my approach of storing the PC or return address when it's > > time to exit? I also check timing after every instruction (or later on at > > the end of every terminal). If I'm out of time to execute, I bail out and > > store the returning PC. That way I can jump back to the point where I left > Okay, that just means inserting timing code into the emitted code. That's > possible, but is that the best way? Hmm, I guess so - I certainly can't > think of anything better right now. Of course, another way would be to know > how many cycles WOULD have passed - that would mean you don't have to do > anything with the emitted code, you just know when you'd have to break out. You'l lhave to know how much time has passed though. You could do checks at various terminal points, or you could spawn off some other thread and multitask it, but just drop in a check here and there. you'll have to keep track of timing anyway. > on to get water out of (think bath, sink, shower) is called a "tap". I've > been told that it's not called that in America, but I've got no idea what > it actually IS called. So... what is it actually called? :o Faucet. A "tap" is what you put in to a beer keg t oserver beer. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:12:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA80970 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:18:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <394F3FB2.891E28A8@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > You have checkpoints somewhere in your block (one at the end of the block or > > more than one to check timing) that jump out to the core. You also check for > > address if they are translated or not. > Thought of that, this can cause problems with timing. Not sure that it's so > important with the 8-bit CPUs - but it certainly could be with the more > modern ones... Trust me - it's a problem with 8 bit CPUs, too. Games do some very strange things if timing is wrong. For example, Berzerk will very quickly scroll between levels. And Galaga will cause some of the aliens to get stuck spinning in circles. Space Invaders will cause aliens to keep scrolling off the right of the screen. Consider that this is from memory on games I did 1.5 years ago. ;-) It's still quite prevalent! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:13:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA80980 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:19:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <394F40A5.2E19E85A@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > BTW. Has NG the DRMZ80 code? I can't remember if he was on the list at > > that time. Or perhaps it's better he doesn't have it so he can work > > his own ideas and later take a look at it. > No idea, all my e-mails are at home. But I agree, it's best that I don't > look. I don't want to look. And that's if I have it. I'd rather see what I > come up with myself - and then you can all laugh at the code. ;) Personall I'd rather you DO look so you can see ways to better it. We're all working together on this, right? If so, we shouldn't be spinning our wheels off in our own respective corners. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:16:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA80993 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:22:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Thought now would be a good time to fill everyone in on my plans. I am doing > a dynamic recompiler as my 3rd year project next year. My title is submitted > and a supervisor found. I'm intending to focus on the CPU dynarec side of > things, developing this for another emulator already in existence. Just tell us you're not doing this for MAME... its problems aren't exclusive to CPU cores. ;-) > open source ArcEm which is less compatible but still pretty good. Julian's > is very good but I hope to develop on his intermediate representation and > implement some kind of memory management and self-modifying code handling as > well as handling the other modes of the processor so that it can be used for > a real system. Intermediate representation = bad idea. Hope you've been on the list for a while so you know why. > 2) MIPS -> x86 dynarec for use with FPSE (PlayStation emulator) the author > has agreed to support me with latest code and as much help as possible. > Given that apparently it's just started running Tomb Raider 3 the > compatability looks pretty good and their current dynarec is pretty > primitive and in need of development. Now this I'd personally like to see! > 3) 6502/Z80 -> ARM dynarec for use with emus based on Marat's cores > particularly those under RISC OS and Psion palmtops and also my own > interpretive Gameboy emulator which is nearing completion. Bleugh. Marat's cores are horrible. > (finally) over. Any comments would be appreciated. As for copyright of the > project, it didn't seem to hurt Generator which was written at Warwick 3 > years back or V2600 which was done a few years before that so I don't see > any problems. I'd give the Playstation emulator a good go. That CPU is fairly straightforward and would probably recompile nicely. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:19:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA81004 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:25:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <394F74C1.2EFB47B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > things, developing this for another emulator already in existence. At the > > moment I have 3 main possible areas to focus on (I'll probably only pursue > > one): > It's best just to concentrate on one. After me sitting (well, okay... more > horizontal... okay, I was lying down!) and giving some thought, it's going > to take one hell of a time to create a dynarec for anything more complex > than a Z80. And, having said that, even a Z80 is going to take some time. > Heh, and here's me - wanting to write a 68k dynarec. :) Yes, even the Z80 takes some time. However, the big amount of time is getting all the target instructions generated like you'd like them. Once you have your "bag of tools", doing other processors would be fairly straightforward. > I will try to write a Z80 dynarec core myself soon, I think. Just so I have > something to work with and to try out new ideas. But I can't say that I > believe it'll be worth releasing... Make sure you look at DRMZ80 first... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:23:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA81020 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:29:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <394F7A56.2B803801@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Agreed, Neil's two layer approach with opcode structure passing would lead to > > much cleaner and better optimised code. > And more to the point - why try it any other way? In my mind, not only is > this the most obvious way to do it (I can't think of another way to do > it!), it also makes writing another core so much easier! What I don't understand about other "dynarecs" is the following: * Use of a middleware approach. This completely kills off any possibility of doing source->target optimizations where you can do quite a bit of fudging to gain that extra speed. * Use of a precompiled block approach. This doesn't given any sort of dynamic approach to allow one to dynamically create instructions. Doesn't anyone think outside the box? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:26:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA81034 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:26:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:31:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <002301bfdac6$c0c0bde0$5f0b063e@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Agreed, Neil's two layer approach with opcode structure passing would lead > > much cleaner and better optimised code. > On that subject, is there any chance I could get hold of a copy of the > DRMZ80 that was sent out on the list before? http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip > Probably not! :o) I agree they're a bit shite but they are easy to use and > pretty portable. And dog slow and impossible to read. No thanks. There are other cores that are better. > As an aside, does anyone know of an emulator written to take advantage of a > multiprocessor machine? In what fashion? The problem with emulation is that synchronizatino is a real bitch. Timing on most multiprocessor games is so tight that attempting to split them apart would just slow everything down. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:28:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA81045 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:34:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <00036a80da915fda_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >As an aside, does anyone know of an emulator written to take advantage of a > >multiprocessor machine? > I'm not sure. Do you plan to buy a dual board or is it for your project? ;-) > I think NB wrote something about that topic on the list some time ago, > concluding that you could handle different things like processor, graphics > and sound in separate threads but the emulation of all processors should be > in one thread due to the coordination between these. You can handle sound in a separate thread because it's a slave to anything going on. However, graphics and everything else pretty much have to be in line. Emulation requires a fair bit of synchronization, and in some cases incredibly tight amounts of synchronization. > Did I remember that correctly or am I just writing crap? Well, you're always writing crap, but you are remembering correctly. ;-) But we like your crap! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 12:40:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA81069 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:46:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com The flames have been reignited IMHO. So who all is interested in doing a 68K Dynarec core? I have some recommendations that I'd like to make, and I'd like to get others aboard. * Architecture is written purely in C, initially targeted to 32 bit x86, but coding provisions would allow for additional targets. * API Should be compatible with Neil Corlett's Starscream 68K core. There are three reasons for this: His APIs are quite clean (guess where he got a lot of the ideas? ;-)) and well proven. There are many emulators out there that are already using it, and it's the most well debugged and we can run it side by side to compare the output of the dynarec with a known good emulation. * We need a project coordinator (I nominate me. ;-)). Comments? I suggest that we proceed in the following sequential fashion: * Download DRMZ80 and Starscream and have a look, and let's discuss the general direction and architecture. * I'll start by creating the basic framework, such as the memory management, API wrappers, code emitters, disassembler, etc... since I already have a lot of that done (I have a 68K disassembler I can use - with permission from the author). This might take a few weeks, though. ;-( * Let's pick something to recompile first. I nominate Atari's Food Fight. The graphics and hardware are quite simple. Let the discussion begin! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 14:31:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA81197 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:31:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <005201bfdb00$18bbb160$b909063e@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <002301bfdac6$c0c0bde0$5f0b063e@daves> <00036a80da915fda_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:33:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Just in case you forgot the details or others are interested: Thanks Mike, those sound like the books. > Indeed, and if Bero is willing to cooperate this would be really cool! Apparently the FPSE core at the moment is very similar to the one written by Bero. Who is this Bero anyway? > It's relatively easy. The cache handling is a bit weird but I'm not sure if > that is needed in the PSX. I think I also read that the R3000A doesn't > include the MMU, but I might be wrong. Sounds better all the time, I'm just looking forward to getting down to it now. > I'm not sure. Do you plan to buy a dual board or is it for your project? ;-) > I think NB wrote something about that topic on the list some time ago, > concluding that you could handle different things like processor, graphics > and sound in separate threads but the emulation of all processors should be > in one thread due to the coordination between these. > Did I remember that correctly or am I just writing crap? I was just thinking about it from the perspective of all the concurrency stuff I was revising and wondering if multiple processors could be taken advantage of easily, but I expect that the amount of synchronisation would kill any potential speed gain and then some. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 14:31:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA81211 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <005501bfdb00$1fcd62a0$b909063e@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:39:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip Thanks. > > Probably not! :o) I agree they're a bit shite but they are easy to use and > > pretty portable. > And dog slow and impossible to read. No thanks. There are other cores that > are better. Can you point me in the direction of one written in C? > In what fashion? The problem with emulation is that synchronizatino is a > real bitch. Timing on most multiprocessor games is so tight that > attempting to split them apart would just slow everything down. As I thought. You're right, forget it. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 14:31:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA81215 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:31:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <005401bfdb00$1d372760$b909063e@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:37:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Just tell us you're not doing this for MAME... its problems aren't > exclusive to CPU cores. ;-) Not bloody likely. > Intermediate representation = bad idea. Hope you've been on the list for a > while so you know why. I forget if I was on it for that debate or not. Damnit Mike where's your FAQ when I need it? :o) > > 2) MIPS -> x86 dynarec for use with FPSE (PlayStation emulator) the author > Now this I'd personally like to see! Well when you put it that way.... I'll see what I can do. > I'd give the Playstation emulator a good go. That CPU is fairly > straightforward and would probably recompile nicely. Will take a look once I get the latest source to FPSE and some decent docs on MIPS are there any online that I can use before shelling out for a book, Mike? Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 14:38:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA81231 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:38:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a836628b8c2_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:45:17 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Just tell us you're not doing this for MAME... its problems aren't >exclusive to CPU cores. ;-) Hehe ;-) I bet Dave knows that! [better FPSE dynarec] >Now this I'd personally like to see! Me too! >Bleugh. Marat's cores are horrible. I already warned him that he won't get too reactions about Marat's cores on this list. >I'd give the Playstation emulator a good go. That CPU is fairly >straightforward and would probably recompile nicely. Just what I said. We might not be of the same opinion all of the time (otherwise discussions would be a bit boring anyway), but we certainly agreen on that point. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e A neighbor came to Nasrudin, asking to borrow his donkey. "It is out on loan," the teacher replied. At that moment, the donkey brayed loudly inside the stable. "But I can hear it bray, over there." "Whom do you believe," asked Nasrudin, "me or a donkey?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:02:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81269 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:08:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <005201bfdb00$18bbb160$b909063e@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > concluding that you could handle different things like processor, graphics > > and sound in separate threads but the emulation of all processors should > > in one thread due to the coordination between these. > > Did I remember that correctly or am I just writing crap? > I was just thinking about it from the perspective of all the concurrency > stuff I was revising and wondering if multiple processors could be taken > advantage of easily, but I expect that the amount of synchronisation would > kill any potential speed gain and then some. It's game dependent, really. I can think of a few games that would benefit from it and could run concurrently - especially those having a master/slave relationship such as a master CPU and slave sound board (like the Williams games). But most games require a very high degree of interaction. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:03:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81280 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:09:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <005501bfdb00$1fcd62a0$b909063e@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > And dog slow and impossible to read. No thanks. There are other cores that > > are better. > Can you point me in the direction of one written in C? ftp://ftp.synthcom.com/pub/emulators/cpu/makez80.zip Use the -c option to emit a C core. (This is my core, BTW). The C section of it is fully implemented but not fully debugged. It's healthy enough to run quite a few games. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:04:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81289 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:04:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:10:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <005401bfdb00$1d372760$b909063e@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Intermediate representation = bad idea. Hope you've been on the list for a > > while so you know why. > I forget if I was on it for that debate or not. Damnit Mike where's your FAQ > when I need it? :o) The basic gist of it is that ahead of time you can do things (like on the x86) like flag handling. The x86's flags compared to a Z80's flags are very, very similar. So by knowing this you can play all kinds of tricks in the emitted code, where you'd lose this knowledge if you went to an intermediate step. > > > 2) MIPS -> x86 dynarec for use with FPSE (PlayStation emulator) the > author > > Now this I'd personally like to see! > Well when you put it that way.... I think you'll find the MIPS an easier target than the Z80 or any other CPU. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:20:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81321 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a83f8b49b73_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:26:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >The flames have been reignited IMHO. I can almost hear the fire ;-) >So who all is interested in doing a 68K Dynarec core? Well, we all know that NG wants one. I think Victor is also interested. And as a former ST hacker I should be able to join as well. I think a 68K dynarec should be more impressive than a Z80 dynarec! >I have some recommendations that I'd like to make, and I'd like to get >others aboard. Asking for permission to come aboard, Captain. >* Architecture is written purely in C, initially targeted to 32 bit x86, >but coding provisions would allow for additional targets. As long as I can work on BeOS and don't have to use Windows that's ok with me. >* API Should be compatible with Neil Corlett's Starscream 68K core. There >are three reasons for this: His APIs are quite clean (guess where he got a >lot of the ideas? ;-)) Marat? Sorry, just teasing ;-) >and well proven. There are many emulators out there >that are already using it, and it's the most well debugged and we can run >it side by side to compare the output of the dynarec with a known good >emulation. Yeah, if you didn't recommend it already I would have done it. >* We need a project coordinator (I nominate me. ;-)). Since you should have the most experience with larger projects I guess you would be a good choice: 1 vote for you! >* I'll start by creating the basic framework, such as the memory >management, API wrappers, code emitters, disassembler, etc... since I >already have a lot of that done (I have a 68K disassembler I can use - >with permission from the author). This might take a few weeks, though. ;-( Well, we all have to take a look at the code so we surely need some time as well. >* Let's pick something to recompile first. I nominate Atari's Food >Fight. The graphics and hardware are quite simple. I don't know the game neither the hardware... >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "OK, now let's look at four dimensions on the blackboard." -- Dr. Joy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:20:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81330 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <005201bfdb00$18bbb160$b909063e@daves> Message-ID: <00036a839d7f4074_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <002301bfdac6$c0c0bde0$5f0b063e@daves> <00036a80da915fda_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <005201bfdb00$18bbb160$b909063e@daves> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:00:45 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Apparently the FPSE core at the moment is very similar to the one written by >Bero. FPSE is written by Bero, but most of the code released recently was compiled by a second guy, AFAIK. >Who is this Bero anyway? I think he's from Japan... >Sounds better all the time, I'm just looking forward to getting down to it >now. I think you'll like the MIPS because it's really simple, and the R3000 certainly doesn't have some of the strange instructions which were added later. >Dave -- M.I.K.e A New York City ordinance prohibits the shooting of rabbits from the rear of a Third Avenue street car -- if the car is in motion. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:20:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81338 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:20:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <005401bfdb00$1d372760$b909063e@daves> Message-ID: <00036a83bff2f5ac_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <005401bfdb00$1d372760$b909063e@daves> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:10:23 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I forget if I was on it for that debate or not. Damnit Mike where's your FAQ >when I need it? :o) Usual location: http://www.dynarec.com/~mike/drfaq.html I also have a section about intermediate representations which mainly caused the discussion about VIP et al... >> Now this I'd personally like to see! >Well when you put it that way.... >I'll see what I can do. You can now tell that guy at university that at least two well known members of the dynarec list (including the founder!) have asked for the MIPS dynarec ;-) >Will take a look once I get the latest source to FPSE and some decent docs >on MIPS are there any online that I can use before shelling out for a book, >Mike? EPR has some info on the PSX and its CPU: http://classicgaming.com/epr/ Dextrose has a nice offical doc about MIPS IV: http://www.dextrose.com/info/0601lfc-r4ki.htm You will only need a small part of this doc since the R3000A is only MIPS I and therefore lacks some of the instructions listed especially 64-bit and FP. It's a bit strange that MIPS don't seem to have docs on their own site anymore, but that doc should be a good start. There is also a documentation of the PSX somewhere, but I'm not sure how well it covers the CPU. Hope that helps ;-) >Dave -- M.I.K.e America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization. -- John O'Hara --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:20:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81346 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:20:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a83cf5784b8_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:14:42 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >What I don't understand about other "dynarecs" is the following: Let me assure you, you are not alone! >* Use of a middleware approach. This completely kills off any possibility >of doing source->target optimizations where you can do quite a bit of >fudging to gain that extra speed. Most seem to think that the quick hack of turning an interpreter into a dynarec is easier, but IMHO that code is very hard to maintain not to mention that peephole optimisation will always be easier in the two layer approach. >* Use of a precompiled block approach. This doesn't given any sort of >dynamic approach to allow one to dynamically create instructions. Don't even mention it! When I first saw that I thought this copy-paste-patch method must be a bad joke I just don't understand... >Doesn't anyone think outside the box? Is there any proof that they think? >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e That secret you've been guarding, isn't. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:20:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81353 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a83da8980c3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:17:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >You can handle sound in a separate thread because it's a slave to anything >going on. However, graphics and everything else pretty much have to be in >line. Emulation requires a fair bit of synchronization, and in some cases >incredibly tight amounts of synchronization. Ah, one thread for sound and one for the rest. Thanks for correcting me. >Well, you're always writing crap, Hey, I'm used to NG teasing me, but now even NB does it - AHHHH! ;-) >but you are remembering correctly. ;-) At least my storage seems to work even when it only stores crap ;-) >But we like your crap! That's ok then ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e We're only in it for the volume. -- Black Sabbath --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:33:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81378 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:39:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <00036a83f8b49b73_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >So who all is interested in doing a 68K Dynarec core? > Well, we all know that NG wants one. I think Victor is also interested. And > as a former ST hacker I should be able to join as well. > I think a 68K dynarec should be more impressive than a Z80 dynarec! Sure. And a lot more usable. I don't know of many Z80 based emulators that are slow, but the 68K stuff would benefit from it. I wrote the Z80 stuff as a proof of concept, and I realized that I didn't need to complete it to prove the concepts. They are already living and working. The only thing the DRMZ80 doesn't do is the full instruction set, but all the basic execution stuff works as expected. > >I have some recommendations that I'd like to make, and I'd like to get > >others aboard. > Asking for permission to come aboard, Captain. Permission granted, #1. ;-) > >* Architecture is written purely in C, initially targeted to 32 bit x86, > >but coding provisions would allow for additional targets. > As long as I can work on BeOS and don't have to use Windows that's ok with > me. I was thinking ANSI C, so I'd break down and use DJGPP even though I hate it (and crank up the warning levels until it bleeds). That'll make it gccable fairly easily since they're the same assembler. I'll make sure the platform specific crap is broken out into its own arena so we can share as much as we can. The big challenge will be "how do we break it into manageable chunks"? Let's think about that! > >* API Should be compatible with Neil Corlett's Starscream 68K core. There > >are three reasons for this: His APIs are quite clean (guess where he got a > >lot of the ideas? ;-)) > Marat? Sorry, just teasing ;-) Hehehe. Me! Dumbass... ;-) > >* I'll start by creating the basic framework, such as the memory > >management, API wrappers, code emitters, disassembler, etc... since I > >already have a lot of that done (I have a 68K disassembler I can use - > >with permission from the author). This might take a few weeks, though. ;-( > Well, we all have to take a look at the code so we surely need some time as > well. Provided you trust my direction, I don't think it'll be a big deal. Lots of them are already represented in the DRMZ80 (like the memory management stuff). > >* Let's pick something to recompile first. I nominate Atari's Food > >Fight. The graphics and hardware are quite simple. > I don't know the game neither the hardware... The game kicks ass. The hardware is mind numbingly simple. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 15:34:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA81393 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:34:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:40:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Sorry -should've gone to the whole list. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:40:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: M.I.K.e Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? One thing I forgot - it'd be cool to have someone document this as we go. That way I don't have to spend hours sending email to people on how it works. Any volunteers? (That means I don't want to do it...) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 17:27:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA81525 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:27:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a85bbf99c62_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:32:27 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >One thing I forgot - it'd be cool to have someone document this as we >go. That way I don't have to spend hours sending email to people on how it >works. Any volunteers? (That means I don't want to do it...) Isn't Victor already our unofficial documentor? ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "Now is the time for all good men to come to." -- Walt Kelly --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 17:27:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA81533 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a85b733a022_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:31:06 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Sure. And a lot more usable. I don't know of many Z80 based emulators that >are slow, but the 68K stuff would benefit from it. Indeed. That's why I'm not a great fan of 8-bit dynarecs because it's hard to find a PC on which such a machine cannot be interpreted at full speed nowadays. But the 68K is a totally different story and there are several emulators which could benefit from such a dynarec. >I wrote the Z80 stuff >as a proof of concept, and I realized that I didn't need to complete it to >prove the concepts. They are already living and working. The only thing >the DRMZ80 doesn't do is the full instruction set, but all the basic >execution stuff works as expected. I guess that's why your development slowed down a bit. You got the results you wanted but you knew that there isn't much need for a Z80 dynarec. A 68K dynarec should be more motivating though! And since NG wanted to write one anyway and I know more about the 68K than the Z80 you should be able to get more support for that project. >Permission granted, #1. ;-) Aye aye, sir! I hope I don't get sea sick! ;-) >I was thinking ANSI C, so I'd break down and use DJGPP even though I hate >it (and crank up the warning levels until it bleeds). That'll make it >gccable fairly easily since they're the same assembler. I'll make sure the >platform specific crap is broken out into its own arena so we can share as >much as we can. Thanks, I really apreciate that! I'd hate having to reboot to Windows just to use another C compiler when I have one in BeOS. >The big challenge will be "how do we break it into manageable >chunks"? Let's think about that! Good question! I never wrote an emulator so it's hard for me to make any recommendations. >Hehehe. Me! You? How come? ;-) >Dumbass... ;-) You are so polite today ;-) >Provided you trust my direction, I don't think it'll be a big deal. Lots >of them are already represented in the DRMZ80 (like the memory management >stuff). Yeah, but now that I really have to work with the code I have to take a deeper look at it again. [Food Fight] >The game kicks ass. I'll have to test it myself... >The hardware is mind numbingly simple. Quite typical for Atari. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "Well, if you can't believe what you read in a comic book, what *___can* you believe?!" -- Bullwinkle J. Moose [Jay Ward] --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 17:43:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA81559 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:49:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <00036a85b733a022_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Sure. And a lot more usable. I don't know of many Z80 based emulators that > >are slow, but the 68K stuff would benefit from it. > Indeed. That's why I'm not a great fan of 8-bit dynarecs because it's hard to > find a PC on which such a machine cannot be interpreted at full speed > nowadays. Except MAME (God, what a horrid name) on a 486 with a 3 CPU game like Galaga. ;-) > >The big challenge will be "how do we break it into manageable > >chunks"? Let's think about that! > Good question! I never wrote an emulator so it's hard for me to make any > recommendations. In this case, it's like 5 people writing a CPU core. yuck! It also semi-requires people to understand x86 assembly, too. Do you? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 18:08:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA81600 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a86504916d1_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 03:13:55 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Except MAME (God, what a horrid name) Maybe they meant "maimed emulator" but got the wrong spelling? ;-) For MESS the spelling is correct of course ;-) >on a 486 with a 3 CPU game like Galaga. ;-) Well, I guess there are only one or two emulators which can do that at full speed. >In this case, it's like 5 people writing a CPU core. yuck! Sounds like a big project... >It also semi-requires people to understand x86 assembly, too. Do you? Erm, I didn't really program it yet, but I now have a book with a nice instruction reference. Combined with the fact that I turned into a processor maniac in the last few years I *might* perform better than a part time assembly programmer. I'll surely won't be nearly as good as Victor or you, but if I can interpret the "semi" literally I should be able to get some things done. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Bizoos, n.: The millions of tiny individual bumps that make up a basketball. -- Rich Hall, "Sniglets" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 23:20:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA81845 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210625.IAA02976@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <394F6E4D.7B9C6FDE@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 20, 2000 03:14:53 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:25:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > BTW I have begun to move things to start a MegaCD emu (mainly demanding > > information). I hope I will find enough time to work on it. > > Ah, so yet another person who requires a good 68k CPU core, eh? :) > Well, as I have saied many times I WANT to build a 68k CPU core. The problem I have is that as my university project is also a 68k dynarec I don't know if get involved into the list effort or not. o: BTW, now there is really heavy traffic and on topic! Really impresive. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 23:30:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA81876 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210635.IAA10394@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <394F74C1.2EFB47B@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 20, 2000 03:42:25 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:35:53 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > > That's fucked. In the US, what you do is yours. > > > > Thought now would be a good time to fill everyone in on my plans. I am doing > > a dynamic recompiler as my 3rd year project next year. > > Grr! And after I've just found out I can't... ;-/ > How many dynarec projectist there are now in the list? ;P Julian, David, Seddon, me, anyone else? > This could be cool though. I don't own a PSX - nor any PSX games - but this > could be very nice. I have seen Bleem! running on my own machine (although > *I* don't have a PSX, my friends do!) and I'm not impressed. Speed is > pathetic (it'd be brilliant if it ran at one speed, not a range from > 25%->175% of the original machines speed!) and compatibility is poor. I've > only heard good things about VGS and I have seen that running on somebody > elses machine - it seemed to work pretty nicely. But the PSX CPU is still a > 33MHz RISC CPU and that takes a lot of the performance away from a PC. So > this could be nice. > I have to admit I'm using VGS although I haven't buied it (but as soon as I see it on Spanish shop I would want to buy it). :( I have tested it with two dozens of games and the emulation is really near to perfection, I think it has the same compatability (in comparision) than ZSNES o SNES9X or even better. As a bit slow (sometimes with a big number of polygons or light effects slowdowns a lot in my 350) but all the graphic and sound hardware is really perfect. Bleem is shit compared, the only point it has is that it is a bit faster and perhaps the Direct3D enhaced mode. > Yes, but neither of those projects were new technologies. Dynarec is a new, > and mostly under-explored, technology. It's a more risky area. Universities > have taken students projects before. One example I can think of is what the > police use now for fingerprint analysis. That was based on a students > project. Or that could be complete crap and it's actually something else. > Heh, I know that some technology the police use now (maybe the face > modelling stuff?) was taken by a University from a student. > It isn't so new. Shade and Embra have some years now. And there are now a lot of people involved in dynarec out there: Transmeta (grrr!!) and all the people building PSX emulators. And the people in university charges are usually too sillies to see something useful. For example if I do a Mega Drive dynarec emulator my project will be known only by director and perhaps by my tribunal (who will forget about it really early). Perhaps in your university would be different but here I wouldn't care about copyright issues. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 23:39:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA81890 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:39:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210644.IAA03945@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 20, 2000 03:40:47 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:44:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > One thing I forgot - it'd be cool to have someone document this as we > go. That way I don't have to spend hours sending email to people on how it > works. Any volunteers? (That means I don't want to do it...) > You can count on me, you should know I like write dynarec and emulation docs (if I'm not playing FF Tactics :(, argh!! this games is going to avoid me to become an emu author!! ;)) Problems the same of ever: no mail connection (when Mrs. thecnology minister we will have plain telephone quote!), and my poor english ;). But neither of them will stop me anyway. Victor Moya P.S.: What will happen with Space8 if everyone get involved in this new project! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Tue Jun 20 23:47:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA81906 for dynarec-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:47:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210652.IAA13677@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <00036a85bbf99c62_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 21, 2000 02:32:27 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:52:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >One thing I forgot - it'd be cool to have someone document this as we > >go. That way I don't have to spend hours sending email to people on how it > >works. Any volunteers? (That means I don't want to do it...) > > Isn't Victor already our unofficial documentor? ;-) > Unofficial you say? ;) Well, I nomine myself official documentor of the list (and I will have to hide the FF Tactics CD). If any one has problems with that he can come to Spain an try to change my mind. ;)) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 00:58:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA81975 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <00b501bfdb57$12eb2020$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> From: "Victor Moya del Barrio" To: Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:02:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >The flames have been reignited IMHO. So who all is interested in doing a >68K Dynarec core? > >I have some recommendations that I'd like to make, and I'd like to get >others aboard. > >* Architecture is written purely in C, initially targeted to 32 bit x86, >but coding provisions would allow for additional targets. > Same as DRMZ80. It sounds well. I usually like more fully asm progs but in a dynarec this means more work and not better peformance. >* API Should be compatible with Neil Corlett's Starscream 68K core. There >are three reasons for this: His APIs are quite clean (guess where he got a >lot of the ideas? ;-)) and well proven. There are many emulators out there >that are already using it, and it's the most well debugged and we can run >it side by side to compare the output of the dynarec with a known good >emulation. > Who, who? ;) When I was beginning to learn about emulation programming my main two examples were MZ80 and Starscream (I thought sometime they were from the same guy becuase they were so similar). But Starscream asm output it is a bit (or very) unreadeable, but perhaps a 68k is more difficult than a Z80. >* We need a project coordinator (I nominate me. ;-)). > >Comments? > Perhaps the better we could ever find. >I suggest that we proceed in the following sequential fashion: > >* Download DRMZ80 and Starscream and have a look, and let's discuss the >general direction and architecture. > We'll I made so long ago. ;) >* Let's pick something to recompile first. I nominate Atari's Food >Fight. The graphics and hardware are quite simple. > Well for me is ok (I don´t know the machine though). But I have another way (which is nearer to my interests ;). We could use a Mega Drive open source emulator as DGEN and we don´t have to worry with errors on hardware emulation, it uses Starscream as core as well as MZ80 (or perhaps he changed to a new, I can´t remember). And I think the author will agree. Perhaps it could be made in parallel. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:18:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82005 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:18:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950760B.C65E0661@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:00:11 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > No idea, all my e-mails are at home. But I agree, it's best that I don't > > look. I don't want to look. And that's if I have it. I'd rather see what I > > come up with myself - and then you can all laugh at the code. ;) > > Personall I'd rather you DO look so you can see ways to better it. We're > all working together on this, right? If so, we shouldn't be spinning our > wheels off in our own respective corners. Okay, I'll look at it. But I do like to try and come up with my own ideas first, so I'll try and do both at the same time. And probably confuse myself. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:18:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82015 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <395075B5.60FA4AB1@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:58:45 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > That's an option I'd thought of but hadn't looked into. It just means you > > have to have more knowledge of the CPU you're emulating, but that's > > probably no bad thing. Yes, I'll look into this more this week. > > You might want to check out DRMZ80's source like you promised to do eons > ago. ;-) Me? Promise? Naah! ;) > > long weekend - and some things to research into. Sounds like I know what > > I'll be doing! Oh yes, and drinking. There's quite a high possibility of > > that too! :o > > Damnit... you guys are getting me excited about Dynarec stuff again and > I'm not done with my existing project! Grrr..... But I think I want to > start over again and do a 68K core. What is your current project again, BTW? And as for the 68k core - I won't argue. :) > You'l lhave to know how much time has passed though. You could do checks > at various terminal points, or you could spawn off some other thread and > multitask it, but just drop in a check here and there. you'll have to keep > track of timing anyway. Yep, that is a big problem with real dynarecs - as in the way that we think of them. I guess this could be the one reason why all the others do strange dynarecs that look like intepreters. Just an idea - but it could explain it... > > on to get water out of (think bath, sink, shower) is called a "tap". I've > > been told that it's not called that in America, but I've got no idea what > > it actually IS called. So... what is it actually called? :o > > Faucet. A "tap" is what you put in to a beer keg t oserver beer. ;-) For us a tap is *also* what you use to get beer out of a keg. Ah, so now I know. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:18:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82024 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:11:56 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > The flames have been reignited IMHO. So who all is interested in doing a > 68K Dynarec core? Uh... ;) I can think of one person. :) > I have some recommendations that I'd like to make, and I'd like to get > others aboard. > > * Architecture is written purely in C, initially targeted to 32 bit x86, > but coding provisions would allow for additional targets. I recommend that we all code in Java so that it's completely platform compatible... ...No, I don't recommend that at all. :) No, I agree with what you're saying. But I'll be using VC as my main compiler because I'm not putting DJGPP back on. Or Cygwin. Or any of the others... Mike *may* have a problem with this, though - he's a BeOS user and I'm not sure if he can write straight C in that. You *should* be able to, admittedly, but there's a possibility that BeOS forces you to use OO... > * API Should be compatible with Neil Corlett's Starscream 68K core. There > are three reasons for this: His APIs are quite clean (guess where he got a > lot of the ideas? ;-)) and well proven. There are many emulators out there > that are already using it, and it's the most well debugged and we can run > it side by side to compare the output of the dynarec with a known good > emulation. I also agree, this is something that both Andrew and myself had agreed on when we were to write our own core. > * We need a project coordinator (I nominate me. ;-)). I second that. Partly because I think you'll be good at it, but mainly because I don't want to do it. ;) > * Download DRMZ80 and Starscream and have a look, and let's discuss the > general direction and architecture. Okay, sure. Er, is Starscream freely available now? I thought it wasn't - you had to e-mail Neill himself to get it. Having said that, I know I've got it somewhere. :) > * I'll start by creating the basic framework, such as the memory > management, API wrappers, code emitters, disassembler, etc... since I > already have a lot of that done (I have a 68K disassembler I can use - > with permission from the author). This might take a few weeks, though. ;-( Yes, this is a time consuming task. Still, it's a necessary evil. I guess that work can progress quite quickly from there on. > * Let's pick something to recompile first. I nominate Atari's Food > Fight. The graphics and hardware are quite simple. You surely know more about the hardware for this machine than I do. What does it use (yes, I know, it uses a 68K)? > Let the discussion begin! Okay. Once you've done the framework, how are we going to split up the tasks? And another thing, though hardly important - can anyone think of a good name for it? And no, DRM68K isn't a good name. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:21:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82036 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39507B06.35ECCF6C@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:21:26 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <20000620150806.A1041@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> <003901bfdac8$3702ada0$5f0b063e@daves> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I get the distinct impression that I'm going to have to install Linux sooner > or later, call me a cowardy-custard if you like, but I'm scared! :o) Psst... Don't mention "Linux" on this list. You're likely to get Neil Bradley to shout "FreeBSD" at you! ;) As it is, I should be pretty good with those now. I use UNIX every day at work now and have discovered some horrible things. It's probably my own fault that they're horrible though! Don't bother going to either Linux or FreeBSD if you have modern hardware - it'll be a pain to get it all to work. I've discovered that the hard way! :-/ Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:25:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82049 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:31:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200006210644.IAA03945@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > P.S.: What will happen with Space8 if everyone get involved in this new > project! What's Space8? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:27:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82059 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:27:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39507C76.5C286C00@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:27:34 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > >I have some recommendations that I'd like to make, and I'd like to get > > >others aboard. > > Asking for permission to come aboard, Captain. > > Permission granted, #1. ;-) I'd come aboard too, but she cannae tak' more, Jim! If I give her anymore, she's goin' ta blow! Er... sorry. Anyway, I'd just like to make sure I'm in on this project (even though I think *everyone* know I want to be!). :) > > As long as I can work on BeOS and don't have to use Windows that's ok with > > me. > > I was thinking ANSI C, so I'd break down and use DJGPP even though I hate > it (and crank up the warning levels until it bleeds). That'll make it > gccable fairly easily since they're the same assembler. I'll make sure the > platform specific crap is broken out into its own arena so we can share as > much as we can. Nooooooooooooooooo! I *hate* DJGPP. But I guess you're right that we should use it. Be prepared for me to moan and complain about it. ;) I'm *still* going to use the IDE from VC though. :) > The big challenge will be "how do we break it into manageable > chunks"? Let's think about that! And then we have to think about how we can share those chunks... > Provided you trust my direction, I don't think it'll be a big deal. Lots > of them are already represented in the DRMZ80 (like the memory management > stuff). So I guess I'd better look at it, eh? :) > > I don't know the game neither the hardware... > > The game kicks ass. The hardware is mind numbingly simple. Mind numbingly simply is good, m'kay? Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:28:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82068 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:34:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: RE: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <00b501bfdb57$12eb2020$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by dynarec.com id BAA82065 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >* Architecture is written purely in C, initially targeted to 32 bit x86, > >but coding provisions would allow for additional targets. > Same as DRMZ80. It sounds well. I usually like more fully asm progs > but in dynarec this means more work and not better peformance. Um... Okay, but writing a dynarec in ASM would be a major bitch and a half. The dynarec is going to emit assembly code anyway - it's just that the dynarec itself is written in pure C. > Who, who? ;) When I was beginning to learn about emulation programming my > main two examples were MZ80 and Starscream (I thought sometime they were > from the same guy becuase they were so similar). I influenced Neill a couple of years ago and he tweaked Starscream's APIs to be very similar to my cores. > But Starscream asm output > it is a bit (or very) unreadeable, but perhaps a 68k is more difficult than > a Z80. No, it's tough to read and follow it because he purposely left out all the whitespace he could. Yes, it's way hard to read. At one time I even created a version of Starscream that would emit proper spacing/tabbing. He did it to speed up compilation. > >* Let's pick something to recompile first. I nominate Atari's Food > >Fight. The graphics and hardware are quite simple. > Well for me is ok (I don´t know the machine though). But I have another way > (which is nearer to my interests ;). We could use a Mega Drive open source > DGEN and we don´t have to worry with errors on hardware emulation, I'd rather not incur someone else's code in this for now. Food Fight is so simple (and I know it really, really well) and the graphics are even straightforward (unlike the Genesis). > Starscream as core as well as MZ80 (or perhaps he changed to a new, I can´t > remember). He's using MZ80. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:29:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82077 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39507D3E.6B1F9E7F@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:30:54 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Good question! I never wrote an emulator so it's hard for me to make any > > recommendations. > > In this case, it's like 5 people writing a CPU core. yuck! It also > semi-requires people to understand x86 assembly, too. Do you? The groupwork can be difficult. The x86 is certainly not, I'm definitely fine with this. That's got to be one good thing coming from a Z80 background - most of the instructions are very, very similar. And, in some cases, even the hex for the opcodes is the same. The worrying thing is that I can remember some Z80 instructions in hex - like C3, CD, C9, 90 and so on. And I know what they do too. Yep, that's scary... Anyway, getting back on topic, I understand x86 assembly fine. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:30:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82089 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:36:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <3950760B.C65E0661@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Personall I'd rather you DO look so you can see ways to better it. We're > > all working together on this, right? If so, we shouldn't be spinning our > > wheels off in our own respective corners. > Okay, I'll look at it. But I do like to try and come up with my own ideas > first, so I'll try and do both at the same time. And probably confuse > myself. :) Well, you have to trust your circle of influence. The transmap idea probably wouldn't have popped into your head, nor would the middle CPU idea being a bad idea have ever presented itself as a bad idea. It's not like we're going to taint you. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:31:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82102 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:31:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:37:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Diner wreck :) In-Reply-To: <395075B5.60FA4AB1@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Damnit... you guys are getting me excited about Dynarec stuff again and > > I'm not done with my existing project! Grrr..... But I think I want to > > start over again and do a 68K core. > What is your current project again, BTW? MIDI Upgrade for a Roland Jupiter 6. Firmware written in 8051 assembly. Lots of it. Fortunately I'm way ahead of my partner so I have some breathing room. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:31:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82113 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:31:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39507D9F.84EF7B8C@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:32:31 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <394F74C1.2EFB47B@eurocopter.de> <00036a80765a557a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > A German on this British dominated list? That must be a real madman! I think he probably is, yes. :) > >Can anybody guess who this could be? ;) > > How many guesses do I get? ;-) None. ;p > >But the PSX CPU is still a > >33MHz RISC CPU and that takes a lot of the performance away from a PC. So > >this could be nice. > > And it is ideal for dynamic recompilation because it's so simple. I don't know the CPU, but difficulties could appear if it does any flag manipulation. That's a pain to do and keep fast... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:32:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82120 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:32:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210836.KAA08269@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 21, 2000 10:11:56 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:36:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Okay. Once you've done the framework, how are we going to split up the > tasks? And another thing, though hardly important - can anyone think of a > good name for it? And no, DRM68K isn't a good name. ;) Why not? It is simple and easy to understand: MultiCPU Dynamic Recompiler 68k emulator. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:33:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82129 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:39:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Mike *may* have a problem with this, though - he's a BeOS user and I'm not > sure if he can write straight C in that. You *should* be able to, > admittedly, but there's a possibility that BeOS forces you to use OO... You mean C++, not OO. ;-) But he has GCC on BeOS, which he can use. > > lot of the ideas? ;-)) and well proven. There are many emulators out there > > that are already using it, and it's the most well debugged and we can run > > it side by side to compare the output of the dynarec with a known good > > emulation. > I also agree, this is something that both Andrew and myself had agreed on > when we were to write our own core. I envision the context to be an extension of Starscream's. > > * Download DRMZ80 and Starscream and have a look, and let's discuss the > > general direction and architecture. > Okay, sure. Er, is Starscream freely available now? I thought it wasn't - > you had to e-mail Neill himself to get it. Having said that, I know I've > got it somewhere. :) Yes, it's freely available. I don't have the URL, but I can send you a copy if you need it. > > already have a lot of that done (I have a 68K disassembler I can use - > > with permission from the author). This might take a few weeks, though. ;-( > Yes, this is a time consuming task. Still, it's a necessary evil. I guess > that work can progress quite quickly from there on. When the initial framework gets going - yup. > > * Let's pick something to recompile first. I nominate Atari's Food > > Fight. The graphics and hardware are quite simple. > You surely know more about the hardware for this machine than I do. What > does it use (yes, I know, it uses a 68K)? I'll document it in an upcoming email message. > > Let the discussion begin! > Okay. Once you've done the framework, how are we going to split up the > tasks? No friggin' clue. Let's figure it out as we go along. I'm sure there'll be some sort of partitioning that can occur. > And another thing, though hardly important - can anyone think of a > good name for it? And no, DRM68K isn't a good name. ;) I'm tapped on snappy comebacks. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:35:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82149 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:41:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <39507B06.35ECCF6C@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > I get the distinct impression that I'm going to have to install Linux sooner > > or later, call me a cowardy-custard if you like, but I'm scared! :o) > Psst... Don't mention "Linux" on this list. You're likely to get Neil > Bradley to shout "FreeBSD" at you! ;) Yes, Beavis. Ahem... : [DYNAREC->neilb: 427] uptime 1:34AM up 42 days, 2:04, 3 users, load averages: 0.03, 0.03, 0.00 ;-) > Don't bother going to either Linux or FreeBSD if you have modern hardware - > it'll be a pain to get it all to work. I've discovered that the hard way! > :-/ Yeah. UNIX Is a shitty desktop OS - always has been and will be for quite some time (please, don't get into it with me. X Sucks major ass as a UI even with fvwm and all the others). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:37:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82161 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:37:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39507E7A.E28240EB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:36:10 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <394F7A56.2B803801@eurocopter.de> <00036a80a0fa3913_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Well, most of the code I've seen so far (excluding Neil's DMZ80 of course) is > simply a modfied interpreter with code generation right in the decoder - yuk! > It's sure that opcode structures lead to a cleaner and better maitainable > code and also better optimisation in the generated code. I wonder whether my idea is correct - they've done it that way because of timing issues? > >I agree, but even the Z80 is simpler than the other suggested CPUs... > > I guess you don't know much about the MIPS, do you? The MIPS I is probably > one of the simplest architectures I know. Later generations are more > complicated, but the R3000A used in the PSX is really simple and doesn't even > have an FPU. I think MIPS has flags for FP operations but all integer stuff > works without any condition codes which makes the dynarec easier. You be right, I don't know about this CPU. The lack of flags for integer stuff sounds cool actually. :) > >> I hope the others write some comments too... > >I have! I have! > > Typical reaction for you ;-) Damn, I hate being predictable. ;-p Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:38:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82170 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:38:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:44:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <39507C76.5C286C00@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > Asking for permission to come aboard, Captain. > > Permission granted, #1. ;-) > I'd come aboard too, but she cannae tak' more, Jim! If I give her anymore, > she's goin' ta blow! But captain! The toilets are backing up into the warp drive! It'll take time to make repairs! > > I was thinking ANSI C, so I'd break down and use DJGPP even though I hate > > it (and crank up the warning levels until it bleeds). That'll make it > > gccable fairly easily since they're the same assembler. I'll make sure the > > platform specific crap is broken out into its own arena so we can share as > > much as we can. > Nooooooooooooooooo! > I *hate* DJGPP. But I guess you're right that we should use it. Be prepared > for me to moan and complain about it. ;) You won't have to use it. DJGPP Is a least common denominator because it's repackaged GCC. That means the C code will compile nicely in MSVC or anything else, and I can maintain DSP/DSWs for Win32 (if you want to give them to me). What I expect is that we're all building it on slightly different platforms, we can adjust our specific builds and environments and just keep it in the master source. I'd be happy to handle the DSW/DSP drop updating (but someone needs to update the DSW/DSPs) > I'm *still* going to use the IDE from VC though. :) Use MSVC all you want. Using DJGPP(gcc) will make Mike happy. > > The big challenge will be "how do we break it into manageable > > chunks"? Let's think about that! > And then we have to think about how we can share those chunks... Yeah. Start thinking. > > Provided you trust my direction, I don't think it'll be a big deal. Lots > > of them are already represented in the DRMZ80 (like the memory management > > stuff). > So I guess I'd better look at it, eh? :) Yeah. Get off your limey ass and get lookin'! ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:38:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82177 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:38:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210841.KAA00913@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 21, 2000 01:31:50 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:41:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > P.S.: What will happen with Space8 if everyone get involved in this new > > project! > > What's Space8? > The non-used name of the SI tutorial in MUL8 list which Neil and me theorically are doing. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:39:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82186 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:39:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:45:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200006210841.KAA00913@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > What's Space8? > The non-used name of the SI tutorial in MUL8 list which Neil and me > theorically are doing. It seems everyone's gone flaccid on the idea anyway. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:42:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82198 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:42:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39507FEC.55DEE7BF@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:42:20 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) References: <00036a83da8980c3_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Hey, I'm used to NG teasing me, but now even NB does it - AHHHH! ;-) Me? Tease you? Me? Never, I'm an angel, I am! ;-p It's all in the name. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:48:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82211 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210850.KAA28635@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <39507D9F.84EF7B8C@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 21, 2000 10:32:31 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:50:48 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > A German on this British dominated list? That must be a real madman! > > I think he probably is, yes. :) > Well he can get some help from a Spanish guy to stop the British domination. ;) Hehehe! With this heavy traffic day the newcomers will know how was the list when started. Fifty or more mails in a day (and my mail account went to hell). But it is fun. And by chance we are really on topic. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 01:55:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82224 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:54:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210859.KAA27498@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 21, 2000 01:45:01 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:59:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > What's Space8? > > The non-used name of the SI tutorial in MUL8 list which Neil and me > > theorically are doing. > > It seems everyone's gone flaccid on the idea anyway. > It is sad but true. I will want to continue it though because it is a really interesting idea. I hope changing a bit the objective could help, there are some people interested in help, Brian and Kieron for example, but they are few for the original purpose. It's also a bit my fault because I have espended the last two weeks mainly playing FF Tactics. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:04:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82398 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:03:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:09:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Keep this message handy. It'll come in quite useful during the process! FWIW, I hope it's OK that I just militantly chose this game. I figure it's one of the best and most simple for our purposes. Food Fight was created by Atari in 1982. It's a kickass little game where you throw food at various chefs and they throw food back at you. It uses a single 68000 running at 6MHZ. The graphics engine is a simple tile and sprite layer. It uses 256 colors (fits nicely in a full palette). It uses 3 Atari Pokey chips for sound. Basically, the chips pull clock signals off the system's bus and modulate them to make noise. Simple sound chips (we can handle them later, but we'll need it for the emulation). Food Fight triggers an int 1 four times per frame, or once every 6000000/(4*60)=25000 clocks, or once every 4.16 milliseconds. It also creates an interrupt 2 once per frame (or 1/60 of a second, or 16.64 milliseconds) Here's the memory map: Description Address R/W ---------------------------------------------------------------- Program ROMs 000000-00ffff R Program RAM 014000-01bfff R/W Motion object RAM 01c000-01cfff R/W (details of the MOB RAM omitted for now) Playfield RAM (character RAM) 800000-8007ff R/W (details of the playfield RAM omitted for now) NVRAM 900000-9001ff R/W Analog in (joystick X/Y read) 940000-940007 R Analog out (joystick X/Y select)944000-944007 W Coin/start/throw buttons 948000 R Color (palette) RAM 950000-9503ff W Watchdog 958000 W Pokey 0 a40000-a4001f R/W Pokey 1 a80000-a8001f R/W Pokey 2 ac0000-ac001f R/W Note that the pokey really only uses up 16 registers, but you do word writes and it just accesses the lower 8 bits of the data. We'll unleash the details of this later on once we get that far (which will be a while). Some of the other devices only use the lower 8 bits, too, but it seems that word reads/writes are done a word at a time regardless. Notice that all we'll have to recompile is the program ROM area, so we can have a transmap for that region that's only 32K entries. ;-) You'll find that most games have a fairly small region that's ROM (that can be recompiled and transmapped just fine). Even some of the larger 68K games like Toobin' (which has 512K of game ROM) Questions? Comments? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:13:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82415 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:18:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Register usage Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I have a few suggestions as to how we should allocate x86 registers (to the 68K equivalents): EAX = General purpose (flags in AH in x86 format) EBX = D0 ECX = D1 EDX = A0 EBP = A1 ESI = General purposes EDI = Time remaining (number of cycles) until DRm68000Exec() finishes I've noticed that code has a tendency to use A0/A1 D0/D1 a *LOT* and I think we'd gain quite a bit by having them in x86 registers. Thoughts? Does this jive with the rest of your experiences? We'd store the flags in native x86 format and convert them whenever we entered or exited DRm68000Exec() by way of running out of things to execute or when we actually call a memory handler. I'll give a quickie Starscream tutorial tomorrow when I'm more awake. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:17:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82428 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:17:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <395083A0.5FF00FBE@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:58:08 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <200006210836.KAA08269@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Why not? It is simple and easy to understand: MultiCPU Dynamic Recompiler > 68k emulator. Okay, but try *saying* it. Something that sounds like "drum-68k" is not a good name. ;) And D-R-M-68-K is much too long. We need a really good name for it. Well, okay, we don't actually NEED a good name for it - but it would be nice. :) I recommend we call it "transmeta". :)) Actually, if we call it "transmatter" then that'd be funny. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:17:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82438 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39508459.781A6AE5@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:01:14 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > You mean C++, not OO. ;-) But he has GCC on BeOS, which he can use. I actually meant "objects" but even then, yes. I mean C++. And good, I didn't know BeOS had GCC... > > Okay, sure. Er, is Starscream freely available now? I thought it wasn't - > > you had to e-mail Neill himself to get it. Having said that, I know I've > > got it somewhere. :) > > Yes, it's freely available. I don't have the URL, but I can send you a > copy if you need it. If you would then I'd appreciate it. I only have 1 hour of 'net time (between 12 and 1pm) and I can't guarantee that I either won't be busy - or that it'll work! :o > > You surely know more about the hardware for this machine than I do. What > > does it use (yes, I know, it uses a 68K)? > > I'll document it in an upcoming email message. Okay, cool. > > > Let the discussion begin! > > Okay. Once you've done the framework, how are we going to split up the > > tasks? > > No friggin' clue. Let's figure it out as we go along. I'm sure there'll be > some sort of partitioning that can occur. Okay. Maybe we'll all find different parts of the CPU interesting or something... > > And another thing, though hardly important - can anyone think of a > > good name for it? And no, DRM68K isn't a good name. ;) > > I'm tapped on snappy comebacks. ITOSC. I like that. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:20:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82450 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:26:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <395083A0.5FF00FBE@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I recommend we call it "transmeta". :)) > Actually, if we call it "transmatter" then that'd be funny. :) Transdump Dynadump Transplatter Transplop I dunno. As long as it insults Transmeta (who just got their asses kicked by Intel's latest mobile Pentium III line in terms of performance and power consumption - their one and only selling point), I'm all for it! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:22:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82463 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:22:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:28:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Dung spitting! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I would've expected this from France, but from the UK? Man, you guys are sickos. ;-) http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/06/17/dungspitting.champ/index.html -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:22:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82472 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:22:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <395089BD.461F39F0@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:24:13 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Don't bother going to either Linux or FreeBSD if you have modern hardware - > > it'll be a pain to get it all to work. I've discovered that the hard way! > > :-/ > > Yeah. UNIX Is a shitty desktop OS - always has been and will be for quite > some time (please, don't get into it with me. X Sucks major ass as a UI > even with fvwm and all the others). I won't get into this - I agree. But I have to use it at work. But I refuse to do so at home! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:26:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82484 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39508ADC.6A36DB00@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:29:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > I *hate* DJGPP. But I guess you're right that we should use it. Be prepared > > for me to moan and complain about it. ;) > > You won't have to use it. DJGPP Is a least common denominator because it's > repackaged GCC. That means the C code will compile nicely in MSVC or > anything else, and I can maintain DSP/DSWs for Win32 (if you want to give > them to me). I had to think for a moment there what DSP and DSWs were (because of sound engineering friends, DSP is something else!) but I can certainly give them to you. > What I expect is that we're all building it on slightly different > platforms, we can adjust our specific builds and environments and just > keep it in the master source. I'd be happy to handle the DSW/DSP drop > updating (but someone needs to update the DSW/DSPs) That'll be me then - because I'm using VC. I didn't get it just so that I can use GCC. :)) > > I'm *still* going to use the IDE from VC though. :) > > Use MSVC all you want. Using DJGPP(gcc) will make Mike happy. Okay, I'll use VC. If we start getting problems then, and only then, will I swap to GCC. :) > > > The big challenge will be "how do we break it into manageable > > > chunks"? Let's think about that! > > And then we have to think about how we can share those chunks... > > Yeah. Start thinking. I have done! :o > > So I guess I'd better look at it, eh? :) > > Yeah. Get off your limey ass and get lookin'! ;-) Oh god, do I have to? ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:31:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82501 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:31:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210936.LAA22665@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 21, 2000 02:18:46 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:36:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I have a few suggestions as to how we should allocate x86 registers (to > the 68K equivalents): > > EAX = General purpose (flags in AH in x86 format) > EBX = D0 > ECX = D1 > EDX = A0 > EBP = A1 > ESI = General purposes > EDI = Time remaining (number of cycles) until DRm68000Exec() finishes > > I've noticed that code has a tendency to use A0/A1 D0/D1 a *LOT* and I > think we'd gain quite a bit by having them in x86 registers. Thoughts? > Does this jive with the rest of your experiences? > If you say that it must be true. It think that mantein all the 68k registers we could in x86 registers is good (and now I would want to have all those IA-64 registers), more if they are really more used than the others. But I think if we can't get into trouble when translating somekind of heavy instructions. With only two general purpose registers we will have to make some register movement to save registers (or push/pop them). Another issue I was thinking about 68K. It's little endian (or it is big endian, argh!! my memory again!). Well anyway. We will load the data in memory byte swapped or we will byte swap the byte reads and writes. I think the best in this case (in all) is the second. In an interpreter we will have to bit complement the last address bit but in a dynarec we haven't, just translate the propper memory address (if direct addressing of course). > We'd store the flags in native x86 format and convert them whenever we > entered or exited DRm68000Exec() by way of running out of things to > execute or when we actually call a memory handler. > It's a good decision as the x86 flags and 68K flags are pretty similar. I have to take a look also to the 68k specifications. I think it has a special carry bit ... or perhaps not. We will see. If my memory wasn't so bad. > I'll give a quickie Starscream tutorial tomorrow when I'm more awake. > I think I will have to read the Starscream doc for tomorrow then. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:32:30 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82509 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210926.LAA07304@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <395083A0.5FF00FBE@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 21, 2000 10:58:08 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:25:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > Why not? It is simple and easy to understand: MultiCPU Dynamic Recompiler > > 68k emulator. > > Okay, but try *saying* it. Something that sounds like "drum-68k" is not a > good name. ;) > In Spanish doesn't sound so bad. > And D-R-M-68-K is much too long. We need a really good name for it. Well, > okay, we don't actually NEED a good name for it - but it would be nice. :) > Too loong!! Perhaps we can call it "It". ;) > I recommend we call it "transmeta". :)) > > Actually, if we call it "transmatter" then that'd be funny. :) > No!! If you call it this way I would have to go to Germany and kill you. You have to understand, it's nothing personal but I would have to do it. ;)) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:35:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82521 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:35:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210940.LAA17643@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <395089BD.461F39F0@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 21, 2000 11:24:13 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:40:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > > Don't bother going to either Linux or FreeBSD if you have modern hardware - > > > it'll be a pain to get it all to work. I've discovered that the hard way! > > > :-/ > > > > Yeah. UNIX Is a shitty desktop OS - always has been and will be for quite > > some time (please, don't get into it with me. X Sucks major ass as a UI > > even with fvwm and all the others). > > I won't get into this - I agree. But I have to use it at work. But I refuse > to do so at home! :) > BTW I have to say something: DOS FOREVER!!!! ;) Well I actually use W9X and a DOS box as usually as I can. The program explorer is useful though. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:36:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82531 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39508D3D.330FFA2E@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:39:09 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Dynadump I like this one. It sounds kind of sick too. :) > Transplop This one is twisted. I like this too. :) > I dunno. As long as it insults Transmeta (who just got their asses kicked > by Intel's latest mobile Pentium III line in terms of performance and > power consumption - their one and only selling point), I'm all for it! Yep, I read about that (the Intel mobile) yesterday. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:36:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82540 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:36:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39508CE2.4BC6DCD7@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:37:38 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I have a few suggestions as to how we should allocate x86 registers (to > the 68K equivalents): > > EAX = General purpose (flags in AH in x86 format) > EBX = D0 > ECX = D1 > EDX = A0 > EBP = A1 > ESI = General purposes > EDI = Time remaining (number of cycles) until DRm68000Exec() finishes > > I've noticed that code has a tendency to use A0/A1 D0/D1 a *LOT* and I > think we'd gain quite a bit by having them in x86 registers. Thoughts? > Does this jive with the rest of your experiences? This sounds fine to me. We may end up PUSHing and POPing a lot though - especially with BX and DX... It jives with me, though. I always allocate registers. That's why I hate the x86 chips not having enough... > We'd store the flags in native x86 format and convert them whenever we > entered or exited DRm68000Exec() by way of running out of things to > execute or when we actually call a memory handler. Okay, this sounds best. :) > I'll give a quickie Starscream tutorial tomorrow when I'm more awake. Okay. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:38:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82549 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39508DAC.4237C9A8@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:41:00 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) References: <200006210859.KAA27498@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > It seems everyone's gone flaccid on the idea anyway. > > > It is sad but true. I will want to continue it though because it is > a really interesting idea. I hope changing a bit the objective could > help, there are some people interested in help, Brian and Kieron for > example, but they are few for the original purpose. We'll have to see... > It's also a bit my fault because I have espended the last two weeks > mainly playing FF Tactics. I don't agree with that - it's certainly nothing to do with you. If they were actually interested then they'd be asking questions, trying to do stuff. But they're not. And I'm getting sick of it now... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:44:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82562 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:44:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39508F19.5DC9FF0E@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:47:05 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <00b501bfdb57$12eb2020$a33b5393@a5s111pc16.fib.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I usually like more fully asm progs but in a dynarec this means more work > and not better peformance. And with 5 or so people working on it, it sounds like a personal nightmare to work with. Even C will be difficult, but if we were to go for ASM... Fun! I can just imagine: --- "mov [d0], ax" "No! You should put: mov d0, ax" "But it makes no difference!" "It does to me!" "I'm going to kill you!" "AARGH!" --- Or maybe not. But still, it'd be a nightmare. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:50:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82578 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:50:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950903A.96563FB8@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:51:54 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <200006210926.LAA07304@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Okay, but try *saying* it. Something that sounds like "drum-68k" is not a > > good name. ;) > > > In Spanish doesn't sound so bad. But it does in all the languages I know. I know very little Spanish. And even the little that I do know, I don't know how to spell. Gracias? > > And D-R-M-68-K is much too long. We need a really good name for it. Well, > > okay, we don't actually NEED a good name for it - but it would be nice. :) > > Too loong!! Perhaps we can call it "It". ;) ThE Dynarec Destroys You - TEDDY :)) > > Actually, if we call it "transmatter" then that'd be funny. :) > > > No!! If you call it this way I would have to go to Germany and kill you. > You have to understand, it's nothing personal but I would have to do it. ;)) Okay, I'm rather attached to my life - so I won't. ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:52:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82588 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:52:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006210956.LAA17329@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <39508DAC.4237C9A8@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 21, 2000 11:41:00 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:56:15 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > > It seems everyone's gone flaccid on the idea anyway. > > > > > It is sad but true. I will want to continue it though because it is > > a really interesting idea. I hope changing a bit the objective could > > help, there are some people interested in help, Brian and Kieron for > > example, but they are few for the original purpose. > > We'll have to see... > We will have to discuss about it and post something to MUL8 someday. > > It's also a bit my fault because I have espended the last two weeks > > mainly playing FF Tactics. > > I don't agree with that - it's certainly nothing to do with you. If they > were actually interested then they'd be asking questions, trying to do > stuff. But they're not. And I'm getting sick of it now... > Yes, in the last months MUL8 is becoming more and more defuncted(dead). Six months ago, when I started (I think in october 99) there wasn't so much traffic as it seem it was at the start of the list, but there was traffic. Now there isn't. And I don't know how it can get alive again because who has to keep a list this list are the beginners and the people who is beginning in the emu scene. It's very sad because I'm not the oldest member of the list it helps me a lot. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 02:58:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA82602 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:58:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <39509210.C0C0DADF@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:59:44 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) References: <200006210940.LAA17643@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > BTW I have to say something: DOS FOREVER!!!! ;) I'm a big DOS user - and I use it at home. But I still use Windows to do certain things - and there are things that I actually like in UNIX that aren't in DOS. A simple example is directory name completion. In UNIX, I can type 'cd bl' and press a key and it will either complete it to 'cd blah' or give me a list of possible directories which I can then choose. That's cool. Being able to protect directories or change user rights is also quite handy if you have people sharing your machine - but DOS wasn't designed for that, I know. Still, it's something I'd like! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 03:04:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA82622 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 03:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006211006.MAA01496@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <3950903A.96563FB8@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 21, 2000 11:51:54 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:06:04 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > > Okay, but try *saying* it. Something that sounds like "drum-68k" is not a > > > good name. ;) > > > > > In Spanish doesn't sound so bad. > > But it does in all the languages I know. I know very little Spanish. And > even the little that I do know, I don't know how to spell. Gracias? > Spanish is really easy to spell because different from other languages as English or German you spell as you read/write and you read/write as you spell. Each letter it's a different sound (and the most cases, there are only a few exceptions) and ever is spelled in the same way. For example this means we have only five vowels: a, e, i, o, u. And we don't have to bother about how it will be spelled in this word on in that other as in english. This makes, or it makes for me, that learn english could be difficult to Spanish. The problem for learning Spanish is that the sound are different (mainly vowels, but also other letters) from english. It also could be difficult all verb issue, plural and singular, etc. As I can't use a fonetic alphabet in this mail I can't tell you how is really spelled. Well, a bit off topic perhaps. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 03:11:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA82638 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 03:11:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006211013.MAA14158@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <39509210.C0C0DADF@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 21, 2000 11:59:44 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:13:24 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > BTW I have to say something: DOS FOREVER!!!! ;) > > I'm a big DOS user - and I use it at home. But I still use Windows to do > certain things - and there are things that I actually like in UNIX that > aren't in DOS. A simple example is directory name completion. In UNIX, I > can type 'cd bl' and press a key and it will either complete it to 'cd > blah' or give me a list of possible directories which I can then choose. > That's cool. > Yes really cool, but lately everytime I'm in DOS I push TAB and I think what happens, what!... ;) Well, I don't have it by I know there are some DOS extensions that provide some useful stuff as directory name completition, an examples is 4DOS (by the people of QEMM I think). You can also use bash from DJGPP or cygwin. Victor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 04:47:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA82732 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:47:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a8e44d8e96b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:43:23 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >EAX = General purpose (flags in AH in x86 format) Obvious choice since we want to use the SAHF/LAHF trick you already used in DMZ80. >EBX = D0 >ECX = D1 >EDX = A0 >EBP = A1 >ESI = General purposes >EDI = Time remaining (number of cycles) until DRm68000Exec() finishes >I've noticed that code has a tendency to use A0/A1 D0/D1 a *LOT* and I >think we'd gain quite a bit by having them in x86 registers. Thoughts? >Does this jive with the rest of your experiences? Well, you know that I'd prefer dynamic register allocation for the 68K but since we deal with one special game that will be ok with me. Just as a reminder: programming books for the Atari ST recommend not to use D0-D2 and A0-A2 in applications because those are heavily used by TOS. I almost wanted to ask if we should reserve one register for the PC because of often used PC relative addressing, but then I realised that this not likely to be the case for a ROM. >We'd store the flags in native x86 format and convert them whenever we >entered or exited DRm68000Exec() by way of running out of things to >execute or when we actually call a memory handler. Sounds like a good idea. I guess the biggest problem will be the extended flag. >I'll give a quickie Starscream tutorial tomorrow when I'm more awake. Good idea ;-) I had too less sleep as well... >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "I'd love to go out with you, but the last time I went out, I never came back." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 04:48:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA82740 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a8e1ebd2d97_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:32:43 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Food Fight was created by Atari in 1982. >It uses a single 68000 running at 6MHZ. >The graphics engine is a simple tile and sprite layer. It uses 256 colors >(fits nicely in a full palette). >It uses 3 Atari Pokey chips for sound. I found that out this morning by launching my copy of MAME32 (yuk!), but strangely enough it didn't get past the self test due to an NVRAM error... >Notice that all we'll have to recompile is the program ROM area, so we can >have a transmap for that region that's only 32K entries. ;-) Nice ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "All my life I wanted to be someone; I guess I should have been more specific." -- Jane Wagner --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:11:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82782 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:11:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950B148.8A882528@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:12:57 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) References: <200006210956.LAA17329@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > We will have to discuss about it and post something to MUL8 someday. Agreed. Mail me whenever you have time. Me? I have *plenty* of time for the next 4 days. :) > Yes, in the last months MUL8 is becoming more and more defuncted(dead). Six > months ago, when I started (I think in october 99) there wasn't so much > traffic as it seem it was at the start of the list, but there was > traffic. Now there isn't. And I don't know how it can get alive again > because who has to keep a list this list are the beginners and the > people who is beginning in the emu scene. It's very sad because I'm not > the oldest member of the list it helps me a lot. Yep, it's bad. What can we do? I've done my best. I'm not going to put any more method into something which I don't particularly find rewarding anyway. If they don't want to help themselves then I'm not going to help them - and that's it. Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:19:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82798 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950B2DC.2D853584@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:19:40 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight References: <00036a8e1ebd2d97_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I found that out this morning by launching my copy of MAME32 (yuk!), but > strangely enough it didn't get past the self test due to an NVRAM error... It's quite likely that one of the function keys will let you pass that error. I've had that sort of thing before and I just hit random function keys until I got something to work. :) > >Notice that all we'll have to recompile is the program ROM area, so we can > >have a transmap for that region that's only 32K entries. ;-) > > Nice ;-) That's true. So okay, we'll optimise the CPU core for this game. But don't we want to write a more general one to run anything at high speeds without former knowledge of what it is going to execute? Or, alternatively, are we going to write the generator so that you can make the generated code be more specifically optimised. That could be a cool option (if you see what I mean)... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:43:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82838 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: Heavy Traffic From: "M.I.K.e" Message-ID: <00036a8f87d6d2ad_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:13:42 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Wow! After a week of silence we finally have as much traffic as in the good old days and it's even mostly on-topic! I don't even know to which message I should reply first! Very impressive! -- M.I.K.e Real programmers disdain structured programming. Structured programming is for compulsive neurotics who were prematurely toilet- trained. They wear neckties and carefully line up pencils on otherwise clear desks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:43:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82848 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006210936.LAA22665@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <00036a9001efe012_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006210936.LAA22665@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:47:50 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Another issue I was thinking about 68K. It's little endian (or it is >big endian, argh!! my memory again!). It's big endian. >Well anyway. We will load the >data in memory byte swapped or we will byte swap the byte reads and writes. >I think the best in this case (in all) is the second. In an interpreter >we will have to bit complement the last address bit but in a dynarec we >haven't, just translate the propper memory address (if direct addressing >of course). Hm, I think NB is the specialist for such questions. >It's a good decision as the x86 flags and 68K flags are pretty similar. >I have to take a look also to the 68k specifications. I think it has >a special carry bit ... or perhaps not. We will see. If my memory wasn't >so bad. It has the extended flag used by ADDX, SUBX, NEGX instructions. It's basically the same as the carry flag, but I think there are some exceptions. >Victor -- M.I.K.e It was one of those perfect summer days -- the sun was shining, a breeze was blowing, the birds were singing, and the lawn mower was broken ... -- James Dent --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:43:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82859 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006210644.IAA03945@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <00036a8f8d7dede5_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006210644.IAA03945@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:15:16 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >You can count on me, you should know I like write dynarec and emulation docs That's what I assumed ;-) >(if I'm not playing FF Tactics :(, argh!! this games is going to avoid me >to become an emu author!! ;)) What is this FF Tactics anyway? >Problems the same of ever: no mail connection (when Mrs. thecnology minister >we will have plain telephone quote!), and my poor english ;). But neither >of them will stop me anyway. Hehe. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" -- Lewis Carroll, "Through the Looking Glass" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:43:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82867 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:43:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006210652.IAA13677@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <00036a8f9157d1df_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006210652.IAA13677@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:16:21 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Unofficial you say? ;) Well, I nomine myself official documentor of the list >(and I will have to hide the FF Tactics CD). If any one has problems with >that he can come to Spain an try to change my mind. ;)) I had to be mad to do that! Well, I'm mad but not *that* mad ;-) >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Death is life's way of telling you you've been fired. -- R. Geis --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:43:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82872 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:23:25 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I recommend that we all code in Java so that it's completely platform >compatible... Oh no! >...No, I don't recommend that at all. :) Well done! Otherwise I'd recommend that you write the Ada port ;-) >Mike *may* have a problem with this, though - he's a BeOS user and I'm not >sure if he can write straight C in that. You *should* be able to, >admittedly, but there's a possibility that BeOS forces you to use OO... The BeOS API is designed for C++ but it has the GCC and is quite POSIX compatible (although not fully), so I should only get some problems when I have to display some graphics because I don't know how to do that yet. >I also agree, this is something that both Andrew and myself had agreed on >when we were to write our own core. How about Andy joining as well? >Okay. Once you've done the framework, how are we going to split up the >tasks? And another thing, though hardly important - can anyone think of a >good name for it? And no, DRM68K isn't a good name. ;) Maybe Mach68, but that might be to primitive. Isn't there an N64 emulator called Mach64? That could lead to some confusion. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e With all the fancy scientists in the world, why can't they just once build a nuclear balm? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:43:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82881 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39507D3E.6B1F9E7F@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a8fb7c35f03_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39507D3E.6B1F9E7F@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:27:06 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >The groupwork can be difficult. Yes I surely don't want to cooperate with all those Brits ;-) >The x86 is certainly not, I'm definitely >fine with this. That's got to be one good thing coming from a Z80 >background - most of the instructions are very, very similar. Well, I still have to learn many things about the x86 but I think I have a relaticely good base to start from. >And, in some >cases, even the hex for the opcodes is the same. The worrying thing is that >I can remember some Z80 instructions in hex - like C3, CD, C9, 90 and so >on. And I know what they do too. Yep, that's scary... I know that for some 68K opcodes: 3F3C0007 = move.w #7, -(sp) 4E41 = trap #1 ... >Neil. -- M.I.K.e When Marriage is Outlawed, Only Outlaws will have Inlaws. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:43:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82888 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:43:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <395083A0.5FF00FBE@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a8ff057373a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006210836.KAA08269@pons.ac.upc.es> <395083A0.5FF00FBE@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:42:55 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Okay, but try *saying* it. Something that sounds like "drum-68k" is not a >good name. ;) Don't say anything against drums or I will put your head into my bass drum and play with double bass pedals! ;-) >And D-R-M-68-K is much too long. We need a really good name for it. Well, >okay, we don't actually NEED a good name for it - but it would be nice. :) Well, my favourite is still Mach68 until someone comes up with something better... >I recommend we call it "transmeta". :)) That's registered... >Actually, if we call it "transmatter" then that'd be funny. :) Hehe. NB's recommendation "Transplatter" is even better ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e The Crown is full of it! -- Nate Harris, 1775 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:43:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82895 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39507D9F.84EF7B8C@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a8fc1c6add6_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <394F74C1.2EFB47B@eurocopter.de> <00036a80765a557a_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39507D9F.84EF7B8C@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:29:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> A German on this British dominated list? That must be a real madman! >I think he probably is, yes. :) And if he wasn't before he surely became mad while on the list ;-) >> How many guesses do I get? ;-) >None. ;p You're so mean! >I don't know the CPU, but difficulties could appear if it does any flag >manipulation. That's a pain to do and keep fast... That's the cool thing about the MIPS: the integer unit doesn't have *any* flags at all! I think the FPU has flags (Alpha is more orthogonal in that case) but you don't have an FPU in the PSX. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Real Time, adj.: Here and now, as opposed to fake time, which only occurs there and then. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:44:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82903 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <39507E7A.E28240EB@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a8fe2934fe5_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <000901bfdaad$e5810ae0$3c6c8cd4@daves> <00036a7bf29f366e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <394F7A56.2B803801@eurocopter.de> <00036a80a0fa3913_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <39507E7A.E28240EB@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:39:04 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >You be right, I don't know about this CPU. The lack of flags for integer >stuff sounds cool actually. :) It's the same case for Alpha, which was largely influenced by MIPS. Both have branches with integrated register compare and there are special instructions to compare two registers and set a third one according to the result. SuperH (used in Saturn and Dreamcast) and MCore (embedded processor by Motorola) work similar. The only difference is that they cannot set and test any register but have just one condition register, which is really only one bit and in one case is the lowest bit in the PC. >> Typical reaction for you ;-) >Damn, I hate being predictable. ;-p You are! ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Is it possible that software is not like anything else, that it is meant to be discarded: that the whole point is to always see it as a soap bubble? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:44:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82911 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006210850.KAA28635@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <00036a8fe798c438_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006210850.KAA28635@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:40:28 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Well he can get some help from a Spanish guy to stop the British domination. >;) Thanks for support ;-) We also have one American as well... >Hehehe! With this heavy traffic day the newcomers will know how was the >list when started. Fifty or more mails in a day (and my mail account >went to hell). Indeed! >But it is fun. And by chance we are really on topic. It's great, isn't it? >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e The new Congressmen say they're going to turn the government around. I hope I don't get run over again. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 05:44:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA82919 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <200006210940.LAA17643@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: <00036a900c22674e_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006210940.LAA17643@pons.ac.upc.es> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:50:41 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >BTW I have to say something: DOS FOREVER!!!! ;) Since I had broken memory which was only identified by HIMEM.SYS I always have DOS on my PC! Otherwise BeOS rules and I spend about 90% of the time in it. I use Windows for games and emulators and Linux for LaTeX, but everything else is on BeOS now. >Victor Moya -- M.I.K.e Armadillo: To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:08:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA82960 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:08:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f To: dynarec@dynarec.com In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: gb@dial.oleane.com (Gwenole Beauchesne) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:27:53 +0200 Message-ID: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: [Posted via] Oleane User-Agent: MacSOUP/F-2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dynarec.com id GAA82957 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I have a few suggestions as to how we should allocate x86 registers (to > the 68K equivalents): Why not dynamically allocate registers ? When I was also thinking of a m68k dynarec, I once coded a simple register allocator with sort of "history" in order to know which ones are likely to be spilled. There is also sort of register locking/unlocking mechanism if some host instructions require specific registers (e.g. EAX/EDX in a MUL for x86 architectures ?) You may find the code at: File: regalloc.tar.gz I haven't really mesured its performance [*], but some improvements can be made: - Currently, I tagged a host register as either a Data Register or as an Address Register. I think we can (I should) get rid of this. - Some silly tests can be removed as they are unlikely to occur, or they would never happen... [*] Roughly, this was only ~1.6 million allocs/sec on a K6-2/300 running Linux kernel 2.2.5 :-( -- Gwenolé Beauchesne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:11:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA82974 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f To: dynarec@dynarec.com In-Reply-To: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: gb@dial.oleane.com (Gwenole Beauchesne) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:30:23 +0200 Message-ID: <1ecl1p4.8mffk71m8f0zkM@[192.168.0.2]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: [Posted via] Oleane User-Agent: MacSOUP/F-2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dynarec.com id GAA82971 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > You may find the code at: > > File: regalloc.tar.gz Sorry, that's . -- Gwenolé Beauchesne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:12:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA82984 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950BFA6.A5005828@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:14:14 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) References: <200006210652.IAA13677@pons.ac.upc.es> <00036a8f9157d1df_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >(and I will have to hide the FF Tactics CD). If any one has problems with > >that he can come to Spain an try to change my mind. ;)) > > I had to be mad to do that! Well, I'm mad but not *that* mad ;-) Mike has a point. You'd have to be mad to go to Spain. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:17:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA82999 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:17:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:17:43 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >...No, I don't recommend that at all. :) > > Well done! Otherwise I'd recommend that you write the Ada port ;-) I actually wrote "Ada" originally until I re-read it and realised that just wasn't funny. At all. :) > >Mike *may* have a problem with this, though - he's a BeOS user and I'm not > >sure if he can write straight C in that. You *should* be able to, > >admittedly, but there's a possibility that BeOS forces you to use OO... > > The BeOS API is designed for C++ but it has the GCC and is quite POSIX > compatible (although not fully), so I should only get some problems when I > have to display some graphics because I don't know how to do that yet. Use OpenGL! :) I have no idea - but OpenGL is really quite a good option when I think about it... > >I also agree, this is something that both Andrew and myself had agreed on > >when we were to write our own core. > > How about Andy joining as well? Andy? What say you, Mr. Andy sir? :) > >Okay. Once you've done the framework, how are we going to split up the > >tasks? And another thing, though hardly important - can anyone think of a > >good name for it? And no, DRM68K isn't a good name. ;) > > Maybe Mach68, but that might be to primitive. Isn't there an N64 emulator > called Mach64? That could lead to some confusion. No idea. Probably. There's so many of them now! I also like that. Hmm, maybe we should have a vote? Yeah - let's make use of the Dynarec server! :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:27:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA83019 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:27:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950C2EE.294ECEFF@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:28:14 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <200006211006.MAA01496@pons.ac.upc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Spanish is really easy to spell because different from other languages as > English or German you spell as you read/write and you read/write as you > spell. Each letter it's a different sound (and the most cases, there are > only a few exceptions) and ever is spelled in the same way. For example > this means we have only five vowels: a, e, i, o, u. And we don't have to > bother about how it will be spelled in this word on in that other as in > english. This makes, or it makes for me, that learn english could be > difficult to Spanish. The problem for learning Spanish is that the > sound are different (mainly vowels, but also other letters) from english. > It also could be difficult all verb issue, plural and singular, etc. Porcierto sabes que pueola hablar un espanòl perfecto. Maybe. :) > As I can't use a fonetic alphabet in this mail I can't tell you how is > really spelled. I know what you mean (I'll explain when you've replied to this e-mail!). Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:30:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA83033 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950C3DF.CEA730A1@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:32:15 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <39507D3E.6B1F9E7F@eurocopter.de> <00036a8fb7c35f03_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >The groupwork can be difficult. > > Yes I surely don't want to cooperate with all those Brits ;-) Yeag. Being German, you can't co-operate well with other countries can you? ;) Ooh, wait - I meant French. You're okay. ;) > Well, I still have to learn many things about the x86 but I think I have a > relaticely good base to start from. I've also got a good base to start from. About 3 years of x86 asm programming. :) > >And, in some > >cases, even the hex for the opcodes is the same. The worrying thing is that > >I can remember some Z80 instructions in hex - like C3, CD, C9, 90 and so > >on. And I know what they do too. Yep, that's scary... > > I know that for some 68K opcodes: > 3F3C0007 = move.w #7, -(sp) > 4E41 = trap #1 > ... That beats me. Though I'll probably know some more when we've finished this project! Neil. PS Will we build a debugger into the project as well? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:34:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA83045 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:34:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> Message-ID: <00036a90c64185ca_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:42:44 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Hi, Are you new to the list or have you been lurking for some time? >Why not dynamically allocate registers ? Well, I guess that answers the question above since I don't keep my favour for dynamic register allocation a secret. But NB (Neil Bradley) prefers to have task specific allocation which is static of course. Both apraoches have their advantages and since he is the project leader I'll accept his decision to use static allocation. >When I was also thinking of a >m68k dynarec, I once coded a simple register allocator with sort of >"history" in order to know which ones are likely to be spilled. Isn't that a bit too slow? The algorithm I once designed was mainly inspired by the "second chance" page replacement algorithm, but I never tested it. Especially for x86 it's also a good idea to only cache destination registers as Jules does it in ARMphetamine, because those registers will be reused soon for certain. >There is >also sort of register locking/unlocking mechanism if some host >instructions require specific registers (e.g. EAX/EDX in a MUL for x86 >architectures ?) I thought there wan't such a limitation since the 386... What can be a problem is the use of registers inaddressing modes. >You may find the code at: > Does that mean that I might get a faster Basilisk II soon? ;-) >- Currently, I tagged a host register as either a Data Register or as an >Address Register. I think we can (I should) get rid of this. I'm not sure if x86 could have problems with some registers combinations in addressing modes... >- Some silly tests can be removed as they are unlikely to occur, or they >would never happen... What kind of tests? >Gwenolé Beauchesne -- M.I.K.e What does it mean if there is no fortune for you? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:35:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA83061 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950C4D5.FEAB86B@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:36:21 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage References: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, A new person to the list! It's always nice to have someone new - welcome aboard! :) BTW, is your name Spanish? It just seems that way to me - I've never heard of that name before! > Why not dynamically allocate registers ? When I was also thinking of a > m68k dynarec, I once coded a simple register allocator with sort of > "history" in order to know which ones are likely to be spilled. There is > also sort of register locking/unlocking mechanism if some host > instructions require specific registers (e.g. EAX/EDX in a MUL for x86 > architectures ?) Agreed - that was what I was thinking about before when I mentioned about PUSHing and POPing - some instructions use registers. To this end, it could be worth using AX and DX as generic registers - and having something else in SI. As far as dynamically allocating, this is something we need to research. For the purposes of the one game, however, we know which registers are used the most - so we can just allocate those. Neil --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:53:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA83088 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:53:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3950C4D5.FEAB86B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a9106bc5efc_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> <3950C4D5.FEAB86B@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:00:45 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >BTW, is your name Spanish? It just seems that way to me - I've never heard >of that name before! I think he's French... >Neil -- M.I.K.e "An anthropologist at Tulane has just come back from a field trip to New Guinea with reports of a tribe so primitive that they have Tide but not new Tide with lemon-fresh Borax." -- David Letterman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:53:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA83096 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:53:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3950BFA6.A5005828@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a90df892347_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <200006210652.IAA13677@pons.ac.upc.es> <00036a8f9157d1df_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950BFA6.A5005828@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:49:48 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Mike has a point. You'd have to be mad to go to Spain. ;) I meant it would be mad trying to change his mind because otherwise one of us had to do the work! But I'm sure you got the idea ;-) >Neil. -- M.I.K.e There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full. -- Henry Kissinger --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:53:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA83104 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a90f6d26915_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:56:18 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I actually wrote "Ada" originally until I re-read it and realised that just >wasn't funny. At all. :) One of my cousins has the name Ada ;-) >Use OpenGL! :) >I have no idea - but OpenGL is really quite a good option when I think >about it... OpenGL for 2D graphics? BTW, the new OpenGL implementation for BeOS should kick ass! I think in the API I found two classes for game programming BWindowScreen and BDirectWindw. The first should plot directly to the screen. The latter is more compilcated since it runs in a window, but you only have to change one class variable to switch to full screen IIRC. BTW, how about using SDL? It's available for Windows, Linux, BeOS, ... >Andy? What say you, Mr. Andy sir? :) Is he still alive? >No idea. Probably. There's so many of them now! I also like that. Hmm, >maybe we should have a vote? Yeah - let's make use of the Dynarec server! >:) Using the dynarec server for something useful? How dare you! Well, I nominate the name Mach68. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Q: How did you get into artificial intelligence? A: Seemed logical -- I didn't have any real intelligence. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 06:53:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA83112 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:53:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3950C3DF.CEA730A1@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a910374ddde_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <39507D3E.6B1F9E7F@eurocopter.de> <00036a8fb7c35f03_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950C3DF.CEA730A1@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:59:50 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Yeag. Being German, you can't co-operate well with other countries can you? >;) Indeed, and I also hate all foreign food, especially Italian food ;-) >I've also got a good base to start from. About 3 years of x86 asm >programming. :) How does that compare to my 3 minutes? ;-) >That beats me. Though I'll probably know some more when we've finished this >project! I know even a bit more... >Neil. >PS Will we build a debugger into the project as well? I think Neil mentioned that he has a debugger he is allowed to use, or was it a disassembler? -- M.I.K.e Reality is a cop-out for people who can't handle drugs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 07:10:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA83146 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: Starscream & SDL From: "M.I.K.e" Message-ID: <00036a912cbb136b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:11:23 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Neil already mentioned that his DMZ80 is available here: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dynarec.zip You'll find the official Starscream page here: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~nscorlet/star/ If we want to use SDL for compatability everything about it can be found here: http://www.devolution.com/~slouken/SDL/ -- M.I.K.e When a fellow says, "It ain't the money but the principle of the thing," it's the money. -- Kim Hubbard --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 07:12:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA83158 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:12:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:14:46 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> <00036a90f6d26915_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > One of my cousins has the name Ada ;-) Give her my sincere apologies. ;)) > >Use OpenGL! :) > >I have no idea - but OpenGL is really quite a good option when I think > >about it... > > OpenGL for 2D graphics? Yep. Why not? OpenGL isn't just for 3D you know (and if you didn't know, you do now)! > BTW, the new OpenGL implementation for BeOS should kick ass! If it uses hardware acceleration then yes. :) > I think in the API I found two classes for game programming BWindowScreen and > BDirectWindw. The first should plot directly to the screen. The latter is > more compilcated since it runs in a window, but you only have to change one > class variable to switch to full screen IIRC. Okay, but that means you *have* to write the graphical code yourself. > BTW, how about using SDL? It's available for Windows, Linux, BeOS, ... SDL is a wrapper. Guess what it uses? Yep - OpenGL! ;) > >Andy? What say you, Mr. Andy sir? :) > > Is he still alive? I think it's around now where those women cycle around naked on bikes - that'd explain why he's disappeared. And no, I'm not joking about the naked women on bikes. :) > >No idea. Probably. There's so many of them now! I also like that. Hmm, > >maybe we should have a vote? Yeah - let's make use of the Dynarec server! > >:) > > Using the dynarec server for something useful? How dare you! > Well, I nominate the name Mach68. Okay, I'll do something later on... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 07:28:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA83185 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950D183.ED829377@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:30:27 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage References: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> <3950C4D5.FEAB86B@eurocopter.de> <00036a9106bc5efc_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >BTW, is your name Spanish? It just seems that way to me - I've never heard > >of that name before! > > I think he's French... If so then my comment about France can't have gone down too well! :o Anyway, in case you ARE French, let me just say that I live with 2 French guys - and so you basically *have* to insult them. It's required. ;)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 07:30:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA83199 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a918b77a797_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> <00036a90f6d26915_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:37:52 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >> One of my cousins has the name Ada ;-) >Give her my sincere apologies. ;)) I think she even lices in Munich now so you could do that directly ;-) >> OpenGL for 2D graphics? >Yep. Why not? OpenGL isn't just for 3D you know (and if you didn't know, >you do now)! I'm really not into graphics standards... >If it uses hardware acceleration then yes. :) Yep, the test might be still on BeNews... >Okay, but that means you *have* to write the graphical code yourself. Yeah, don't mention it! >I think it's around now where those women cycle around naked on bikes - >that'd explain why he's disappeared. >And no, I'm not joking about the naked women on bikes. :) He's in Munich too? Or is there something else like the English Garden? >Okay, I'll do something later on... Do you have the rights to do CGI? >Neil. -- M.I.K.e Blessed are the young for they shall inherit the national debt. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 07:50:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA83230 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:50:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a91d1a3c506_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> <00036a90f6d26915_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:57:30 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >SDL is a wrapper. Guess what it uses? Yep - OpenGL! ;) Oops, I stripped that line in the original reply, maybe I was distracted by the naked women ;-) You might be right that SDL is something like a OpenGL wrapper. I just don't know enough about both libs. But the good thing is that SDL also includes sound which should make things much easier if Neil really wants to add emulation of the 3 Pokeys later. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e When a Banker jumps out of a window, jump after him -- that's where the money is. -- Robespierre --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 08:02:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA83256 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:02:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950D962.F8793B88@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:04:02 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> <00036a90f6d26915_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> <00036a918b77a797_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >Give her my sincere apologies. ;)) > > I think she even lices in Munich now so you could do that directly ;-) Heh... Du wieß Mike? Ja? Ah, okay. So, Ada, bekümmert für diene name... :) > >Yep. Why not? OpenGL isn't just for 3D you know (and if you didn't know, > >you do now)! > > I'm really not into graphics standards... You'd never guess that I was though. :) > >If it uses hardware acceleration then yes. :) > > Yep, the test might be still on BeNews... Ah, the site I check every day for news. ;p > >Okay, but that means you *have* to write the graphical code yourself. > > Yeah, don't mention it! So using OpenGL or SDL (which, according to my memory, should also include sound support so this could be the way to go!) could be a good thing then... > >I think it's around now where those women cycle around naked on bikes - > >that'd explain why he's disappeared. > >And no, I'm not joking about the naked women on bikes. :) > > He's in Munich too? Or is there something else like the English Garden? Sorry? Women ride bikes naked in Munich or in the English Garden? WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THIS BEFORE! Okay, I won't be working on the dynarec this weekend. I think I'm going to be relaxing in the English Garden this weekend. :)) And the best thing is... The English Garten is right by the University. Hmm... Young female women... Hey, sorry, I must stop this line of thought else I'll go home now. Hmm... That's an option. :)) > >Okay, I'll do something later on... > > Do you have the rights to do CGI? I think so. But there's one way to find out - to try it! I'll do my CGI in C or C++ though, can't be bothered with Perl. I just hope GCC or EGCS is installed on the server! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 08:05:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA83271 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950D9F1.BF4C7B43@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:06:25 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> <00036a90f6d26915_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> <00036a91d1a3c506_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > >SDL is a wrapper. Guess what it uses? Yep - OpenGL! ;) > > Oops, I stripped that line in the original reply, maybe I was distracted by > the naked women ;-) As I am now. Mmmmmmmmmm... No, must stop dribbling on the keyboard. Hey, fancy a big dynarec party in Munich? We can hold it in the English Garden - which certainly has some nice scenery for us to look at as we discuss dynamic recompilation. :)) > You might be right that SDL is something like a OpenGL wrapper. I just don't > know enough about both libs. But the good thing is that SDL also includes > sound which should make things much easier if Neil really wants to add > emulation of the 3 Pokeys later. Ah, my memory was correct! Yes, I thought SDL supported sound. So yes - SDL could well be the way forward. I think I've downloaded it as well - I'll have to look at one of my download CDs. Yes, I have download CDs. 13 if I'm not mistaken. Yes, I've spent too much time downloading stuff. :)) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 08:26:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA83300 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <011601bfdb96$4b9e34e0$b60d8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: Subject: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:34:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Just got back from 2 exams to find my inbox was in a worse state than my formal methods. :o) Thanks for the MIPS docs and the Z80 in C emulation Mike and NB. As for Unix/Linux/FreeBSD I get the impression I won't be able to get ArcEm running too easily in Windows so might have to try them but if I do FPSE that won't matter anyway. Other than that I'm just looking for a nice stable development environment that I can use, possibly BeOS. I have MSVC++ v5 but am not sure as to whether there's anything much better out there and I desperately need a nicer email client (Outlook express sucks). I won't get involved with the 68k dynarec at this stage as I have more than enough on my plate with a degree/gb emu/3rd year project/job/girlfriend (in no particular order!) though I may try porting it to ARM at a later stage when you've got it up and running. Can I suggest another transformer name (a la Starscream)? As for register allocation, are you sure you want to statically allocate registers, yep that's fine for food fight, but say you want to adjust the dynarec later to go into say DGen (which would rock) it might be better to write it more generically. On the other hand static Vs dynamic might have a negligible difference in which case who cares (will think about this more when I come to my project) any opinions? One last exam on Friday.... now all I have to do is learn the ins and outs of data comms and networking in around 36 hours, from information theory to OSI model and TCP/IP to DNS to routing, kerberos, huffman, CRC, how JPEG works (I can hardly say discrete cosine transform let alone understand it) and everything inbetween........... Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 08:30:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA83315 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <011901bfdb96$e7067280$b60d8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dung spitting! Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:38:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I would've expected this from France, but from the UK? Man, you guys are > sickos. ;-) Only from CNN! ;o) Cheers Dave PS: what no new messages? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 08:58:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA83352 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:58:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f To: dynarec@dynarec.com In-Reply-To: <00036a90c64185ca_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: gb@dial.oleane.com (Gwenole Beauchesne) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:17:21 +0200 Message-ID: <1ecl640.15xt8xq11ogmaxM@[192.168.0.2]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: [Posted via] Oleane User-Agent: MacSOUP/F-2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dynarec.com id IAA83349 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Are you new to the list or have you been lurking for some time? I have been lurking for nearly two months now. And yes, I am French. ;-) > >When I was also thinking of a > >m68k dynarec, I once coded a simple register allocator with sort of > >"history" in order to know which ones are likely to be spilled. > > Isn't that a bit too slow? Unfortunately, this seems to be the case, indeed. I re-benchmarked the thing by activating the compiler optimizations: 3.2 Maps. (allocations per second). The way I "benchmark" is also questionable, though. see test_registers.cpp in src/ directory. > The algorithm I once designed was mainly inspired by the "second chance" page > replacement algorithm, but I never tested it. At that time, I was not aware of that algorithm. I only saw it this last semester. Actually, the algorithm I implemented is a LRU as a linked list of host registers allocated. > Especially for x86 it's also a good idea to only cache destination registers > as Jules does it in ARMphetamine, because those registers will be reused soon > for certain. Yes, this sounds good to me as well. > Does that mean that I might get a faster Basilisk II soon? ;-) I still plan a dynarec core for BasiliskII but for starters, this would only be a dynarec to TCI (threaded code instructions), see. Syn68k. I am currently working on the disassembler and hence the decoder (file: gencpu-XXX.tar.gz). BTW, I also have a testsuite generator for m68k disassemblers. Next, when everything looks good, I will start to code the instruction handlers. I intend to write those in a C-like syntax and then generate several experimental cores from the abstract syntax tree, namely Direct Threaded Code and Token Threaded Code for compilers that don't support GCC's "Labels as Values" extension. Finally, maybe I could tune the code generator to generate native code generators instead of C++ code. BTW, I would have liked a PPC dynarec. Bill Huey (from vMac) is working on it but I don't know his progress though. > >- Currently, I tagged a host register as either a Data Register or as an > >Address Register. I think we can (I should) get rid of this. > > I'm not sure if x86 could have problems with some registers combinations in > addressing modes... Well, I did so because I got an odd idea: a m68k backend for the DR_m68k. Don't ask me why as this occured months ago ;-) > >- Some silly tests can be removed as they are unlikely to occur, or they > >would never happen... > > What kind of tests? For example, when locking a host register, I first check that this register is used, i.e. connected to a m68k register. This should not happen since, as I intended to be the only user of the allocator, I would have known to first allocate the register. Another example: when freeing a host register, I check that it was really used. i.e. is the host register really linked to a m68k register and that m68k register linked to the host register ? In fact: I maintain a table of m68k registers plus some "virtual" ones. Each register has a possible link to a host register. On the other hand, I have a table of host registers, which can have a link to the m68k register it caches. The checks I was telling you about are checks for internal structures coherency: has the allocator got mad with all those "inter-"links ? -- Gwenolé Beauchesne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 09:05:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83376 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:05:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <3950D9F1.BF4C7B43@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: <00036a92e0a921bb_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <395078CC.7654F0CE@eurocopter.de> <00036a8faa9c1a8b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950C077.14A7A59E@eurocopter.de> <00036a90f6d26915_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> <00036a91d1a3c506_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> <3950D9F1.BF4C7B43@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:13:17 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Hey, fancy a big dynarec party in Munich? We can hold it in the English >Garden - which certainly has some nice scenery for us to look at as we >discuss dynamic recompilation. :)) Hehe ;-) >Ah, my memory was correct! Yes, I thought SDL supported sound. So yes - SDL >could well be the way forward. I think I've downloaded it as well - I'll >have to look at one of my download CDs. Yes, I have download CDs. 13 if I'm >not mistaken. Yes, I've spent too much time downloading stuff. :)) I think the newest version is 1.1.3 and now is even available for FreeBSD and IRIX. The other platfors are Win32, Linux, BeOS, Mac, Solaris. I think that would be optimal portability of graphics and sound. But we'll have to wait what our project leader has to say about it. >Neil. -- M.I.K.e The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues. -- Elizabeth Taylor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 09:12:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83393 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <013a01bfdb9c$cb2d7bc0$b60d8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:20:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Use the -c option to emit a C core. (This is my core, BTW). The C section > of it is fully implemented but not fully debugged. It's healthy enough to > run quite a few games. BTW, is the C version of mZ80 significantly faster than Marat's core? Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 09:16:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83407 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950EAEF.D6EC722@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:18:55 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage References: <1ecl640.15xt8xq11ogmaxM@[192.168.0.2]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I have been lurking for nearly two months now. And yes, I am French. ;-) Hey, Neil, we have to be careful with our French jokes! ;)) > > Especially for x86 it's also a good idea to only cache destination registers > > as Jules does it in ARMphetamine, because those registers will be reused soon > > for certain. > > Yes, this sounds good to me as well. You'd have to be more explicit though. An instruction may change two registers - and you might allocate both of those but only one register gets used. And if the one that you've just deallocated is the next instruction... Still, it may be a price worth paying. > Finally, maybe I could tune the code generator to generate native code > generators instead of C++ code. This is where your main speed increase is going to come in. BTW, I did download Basilisk II the other day (2 days ago or so). I haven't tried it yet but I will. Just so I know what speed increases you've got from dynamic recompilation! ;) Hmm, Macintoshes. My introduction to the world of CD-ROMs (my first CD-ROM was for a Macintosh) which was cool. I still remember Bolo fondly - my first real time network game. Nothing else was particularly memorable for me though. ClarisWorks was cool though... ...And HyperCard - that was fun! And so was pressing the left shift so that all the protection that had been installed on the Macs got disabled. And pressing that strange triangular marked button at the top of the LCII keyboards that played scary music when you pressed it on bootup... :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 09:22:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83422 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <3950EC22.F69961F3@eurocopter.de> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:24:02 +0200 From: Neil Griffiths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions References: <011601bfdb96$4b9e34e0$b60d8cd4@daves> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I won't get involved with the 68k dynarec at this stage as I have more than > enough on my plate with a degree/gb emu/3rd year project/job/girlfriend (in > no particular order!) though I may try porting it to ARM at a later stage > when you've got it up and running. Can I suggest another transformer name (a > la Starscream)? Okay, we'll let you off for not helping. ;) And as for the name - something like "Optimus"? > As for register allocation, are you sure you want to statically allocate > registers, yep that's fine for food fight, but say you want to adjust the > dynarec later to go into say DGen (which would rock) it might be better to > write it more generically. On the other hand static Vs dynamic might have a > negligible difference in which case who cares (will think about this more > when I come to my project) any opinions? Okay, we all seem to share this opinion. :) > One last exam on Friday.... now all I have to do is learn the ins and outs > of data comms and networking in around 36 hours, from information theory to > OSI model and TCP/IP to DNS to routing, kerberos, huffman, CRC, how JPEG > works (I can hardly say discrete cosine transform let alone understand it) > and everything inbetween........... That's nasty - but something I'm good at. My last project WAS an entire Internet Client Suite - written from the ground up. If you need a hand then give me a shout! Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 09:37:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83448 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:37:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:43:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <200006210936.LAA22665@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > think we'd gain quite a bit by having them in x86 registers. Thoughts? > > Does this jive with the rest of your experiences? > If you say that it must be true. I'm just saying it because that's what I've witnessed when stumbling through 68K code. Throughout all kinds of games. > I think if we can't get into trouble when translating somekind of heavy > instructions. With only two general purpose registers we will have to > make some register movement to save registers (or push/pop them). Or xchg instructions: xchg edx, [a3] ... do stuff here xchg edx, [a3] As an example. > Another issue I was thinking about 68K. It's little endian (or it is > big endian, argh!! my memory again!). Well anyway. We will load the > data in memory byte swapped or we will byte swap the byte reads and writes. right - that was my thinking as well. Load the even/odd data as odd/even and just xor the address when we do byte reads/writes. Fortunately we just do a big assed rotate on a DWORD read/write. > we will have to bit complement the last address bit but in a dynarec we > haven't, just translate the propper memory address (if direct addressing > of course). Right. > > entered or exited DRm68000Exec() by way of running out of things to > > execute or when we actually call a memory handler. > It's a good decision as the x86 flags and 68K flags are pretty similar. I think it's good because there's only 5 total "operational" flags in the 68K anyway, and we can find homes for each in the x86's. > I have to take a look also to the 68k specifications. I think it has > a special carry bit ... or perhaps not. We will see. If my memory wasn't > so bad. It has an "x" bit, though I'm not yet sure of its significance. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 09:40:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83462 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:40:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:46:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <00036a8e44d8e96b_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Well, you know that I'd prefer dynamic register allocation for the 68K but > since we deal with one special game that will be ok with me. Just as a > reminder: programming books for the Atari ST recommend not to use D0-D2 and > A0-A2 in applications because those are heavily used by TOS. What we should do I think is have some way to program up what the 4 "use in x86 register" 68K registers are. But throughout the code, we can't have a mix, otherwise we need some sort of history kept on every single location and what registers are in what. Yuck! > I almost wanted to ask if we should reserve one register for the PC because > of often used PC relative addressing, but then I realised that this not > likely to be the case for a ROM. We don't need it, actually. When we recompile the instruction, we already know what the PC is! We can do any relative addressing via an instruction that takes the static PC and subtracts (or adds) to it, looks the target address up in the transmap and jumps to it. Pretty simple, actually. > >We'd store the flags in native x86 format and convert them whenever we > >entered or exited DRm68000Exec() by way of running out of things to > >execute or when we actually call a memory handler. > Sounds like a good idea. I guess the biggest problem will be the extended > flag. We can stick that in the AUX flag in the x86. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 09:41:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83472 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:47:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight In-Reply-To: <00036a8e1ebd2d97_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >(fits nicely in a full palette). > >It uses 3 Atari Pokey chips for sound. > I found that out this morning by launching my copy of MAME32 (yuk!), but > strangely enough it didn't get past the self test due to an NVRAM error... Hit ctrl to get past it. That's the "throw" button on the real game, and yup - the real game does it, too. > >Notice that all we'll have to recompile is the program ROM area, so we can > >have a transmap for that region that's only 32K entries. ;-) > Nice ;-) Of course, we'll make the transmap adjust itself to how large the ROMmed region is. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 09:43:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83482 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:49:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight In-Reply-To: <3950B2DC.2D853584@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > >Notice that all we'll have to recompile is the program ROM area, so we can > > >have a transmap for that region that's only 32K entries. ;-) > > Nice ;-) > That's true. So okay, we'll optimise the CPU core for this game. But don't > we want to write a more general one to run anything at high speeds without > former knowledge of what it is going to execute? Of course the code will adjust. If you look at Starscream's API, you'll see there's an "execute" structure that lists all possible ranges of addresses where things can execute from. The transmap will have to be created based on this, and will be as big as (size/2)*4 bytes. > Or, alternatively, are we going to write the generator so that you can make > the generated code be more specifically optimised. That could be a cool > option (if you see what I mean)... That's the idea, yes. We'll have some way of passing in "hints" to the recopmiler to get it to generate optimal code. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:05:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83525 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:11:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > I have a few suggestions as to how we should allocate x86 registers (to > > the 68K equivalents): > Why not dynamically allocate registers ? When I was also thinking of a > m68k dynarec, I once coded a simple register allocator with sort of > "history" in order to know which ones are likely to be spilled. Think of it this way - You need to, at any point, know what 68K registers are allocated in the x86 registers. And you need to be able to jump to any address in the execution code. You'll very quickly find that doing this sort of thing is impossible unless you want to incur massive overhead. It's faster to just do it with statically allocated registers. > There is > also sort of register locking/unlocking mechanism if some host > instructions require specific registers (e.g. EAX/EDX in a MUL for x86 > architectures ?) Um... not that I'm aware of. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:08:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83536 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:08:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:14:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <00036a90c64185ca_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Why not dynamically allocate registers ? > Well, I guess that answers the question above since I don't keep my favour > for dynamic register allocation a secret. But NB (Neil Bradley) prefers to > have task specific allocation which is static of course. Both apraoches have > their advantages and since he is the project leader I'll accept his decision > to use static allocation. In the case of the x86 where you don't have dick for registers, you'd wind up swapping so much that it'd wind up being slower. I've actually mapped it out, and the real problem comes when another piece of code tries to jump in to the middle of the block of code that has dynamic register allocation. It's the equivalent of using 64MB of RAM when you've only got 16 with no memory unit support to help you out. Lots of thrashing. > Especially for x86 it's also a good idea to only cache destination registers > as Jules does it in ARMphetamine, because those registers will be reused soon > for certain. In the case of another CPU with lots of registers, one could just put all 68K registers in the host processor's registers. So register allocation really isn't necessary - ever - when talking about dynarec. > >- Currently, I tagged a host register as either a Data Register or as an > >Address Register. I think we can (I should) get rid of this. > I'm not sure if x86 could have problems with some registers combinations in > addressing modes... I'm not aware of any. You can use any register for anything (except IN/OUT/STOSB/LODSB). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:10:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83550 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:10:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:16:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <3950C4D5.FEAB86B@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > PUSHing and POPing - some instructions use registers. To this end, it could > be worth using AX and DX as generic registers - and having something else > in SI. We'll still have to do 8, 16, and 32 bit accesses to these registers which would indicate we should have them in the EAX/AH/AL/AX styles of registers. > As far as dynamically allocating, this is something we need to research. > For the purposes of the one game, however, we know which registers are used > the most - so we can just allocate those. In any case, I think we should make it configurable, where we can tell the recompiler up front what registers to use (and what not to). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:11:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83560 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:17:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <00036a910374ddde_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >PS Will we build a debugger into the project as well? > I think Neil mentioned that he has a debugger he is allowed to use, or was it > a disassembler? It was a disassembler. Alternately, I can put up a copy of Retrocade that has the debugger enabled so we can step through things, but I've just been doing logging for DRMZ80 and I don't see why we couldn't use the same approach for DR68K. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:12:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83569 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:12:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:18:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <3950CDD6.AB858D33@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > I think in the API I found two classes for game programming BWindowScreen and > > BDirectWindw. The first should plot directly to the screen. The latter is > > more compilcated since it runs in a window, but you only have to change one > > class variable to switch to full screen IIRC. > Okay, but that means you *have* to write the graphical code yourself. Actually, you'll just have to write a routine that blits a chunk of data to the screen. All the graphics will be handled on a virtual page in the game itself. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:14:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83579 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:14:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:20:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions In-Reply-To: <011601bfdb96$4b9e34e0$b60d8cd4@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > As for register allocation, are you sure you want to statically allocate > registers, yep that's fine for food fight, but say you want to adjust the > dynarec later to go into say DGen (which would rock) it might be better to > write it more generically. On the other hand static Vs dynamic might have a > negligible difference in which case who cares (will think about this more > when I come to my project) any opinions? With dynamic allocation, the big problem is when you try to jump in to the middle of a routine. How do you know what registers are currently cached? The amount of extra data you'd need to keep around for such a thing would be horiffic, and God help you in the case of a jump instruction carried out by the value in a register. I think we should explore other (better) alternatives. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:16:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83592 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:22:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <1ecl640.15xt8xq11ogmaxM@[192.168.0.2]> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Another example: when freeing a host register, I check that it was > really used. i.e. is the host register really linked to a m68k register > and that m68k register linked to the host register ? This is fine for compilers where you're going forward and never going backward, but in a recompiler code tends to have an issue with doubling back on itself and jumping in to the middle of blocks of data. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:16:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83602 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:16:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:22:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <013a01bfdb9c$cb2d7bc0$b60d8cd4@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Use the -c option to emit a C core. (This is my core, BTW). The C section > > of it is fully implemented but not fully debugged. It's healthy enough to > > run quite a few games. > BTW, is the C version of mZ80 significantly faster than Marat's core? Over 3X - yes. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:21:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83616 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:21:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:28:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions In-Reply-To: <3950EC22.F69961F3@eurocopter.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > And as for the name - something like "Optimus"? If it wasnt a crappy Radio Shack brand name, I'd be all for it. How about "WarpCore"? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:42:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83661 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:42:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <1ecl640.15xt8xq11ogmaxM@[192.168.0.2]> Message-ID: <00036a94365461bc_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <1ecl640.15xt8xq11ogmaxM@[192.168.0.2]> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:48:49 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I have been lurking for nearly two months now. I wonder how many lurkers we still have ;-) Well, welcome aboard! >And yes, I am French. ;-) Uh-oh, yousa in big dudu dis time, Neil ;-) >> Isn't that a bit too slow? >Unfortunately, this seems to be the case, indeed. I re-benchmarked the >thing by activating the compiler optimizations: 3.2 Maps. (allocations >per second). The way I "benchmark" is also questionable, though. see >test_registers.cpp in src/ directory. I already downloaded and extracted it but I still have to take a deeper look. >At that time, I was not aware of that algorithm. I only saw it this last >semester. Actually, the algorithm I implemented is a LRU as a linked >list of host registers allocated. LRU seems to be the obvious pick at first, but you need more complicated structures (linked lists) and you have to change reference counters for all registers every "instruction cycle". Second chance can be implemented with an array which is made cyclic with a modulo operation and only the registers involved in the current instruction get the reference bit set. My idea was, keep it simple and fast, so I came up with that solution. The results might not be as good as those for LRU but should be very close. [only destination registers cached] >Yes, this sounds good to me as well. Especially for a target architecture with few registers this sounds like a good idea. >I still plan a dynarec core for BasiliskII but for starters, BTW, doesn't Basilisk II use the UAE core, which now has a dynarec? >Next, when everything looks good, I will start to code the instruction >handlers. I intend to write those in a C-like syntax and then generate >several experimental cores from the abstract syntax tree, namely Direct >Threaded Code and Token Threaded Code for compilers that don't support >GCC's "Labels as Values" extension. Sound interesting. >Finally, maybe I could tune the code generator to generate native code >generators instead of C++ code. Should be faster ;-) >BTW, I would have liked a PPC dynarec. Bill Huey (from vMac) is working >on it but I don't know his progress though. PPC as source or as target? That processor is a real bitch! >For example, when locking a host register, I first check that this >register is used, i.e. connected to a m68k register. This should not >happen since, as I intended to be the only user of the allocator, I >would have known to first allocate the register. Well, when register locking isn't used then such tests wouldn't be necessary of course. >Another example: when freeing a host register, I check that it was >really used. i.e. is the host register really linked to a m68k register >and that m68k register linked to the host register ? Well, I tested if the register was modified which means that the value has to be written back to the appropriate memory location. I think no other test is performed. But I have two parallel arrays: one which holds the information about the simulated register and the other for the hardware register. If you are interested I could post the code, but it might be very buggy because I never ran it through a compiler... >In fact: I maintain a table of m68k registers plus some "virtual" ones. >Each register has a possible link to a host register. On the other hand, >I have a table of host registers, which can have a link to the m68k >register it caches. Sounds just like my two array approach. >The checks I was telling you about are checks for >internal structures coherency: has the allocator got mad with all those >"inter-"links ? I have no links but only register numbers and array indices. No checks were performed. >Gwenolé Beauchesne -- M.I.K.e Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall, Aleph-null bottles of beer, You take one down, and pass it around, Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 10:43:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA83672 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:43:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <015101bfdba9$6c29d4e0$b60d8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: <011601bfdb96$4b9e34e0$b60d8cd4@daves> <3950EC22.F69961F3@eurocopter.de> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:52:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Okay, we'll let you off for not helping. ;) Thanks. :o) > And as for the name - something like "Optimus"? It is the obvious choice isn't it. > That's nasty - but something I'm good at. My last project WAS an entire > Internet Client Suite - written from the ground up. If you need a hand then > give me a shout! None of it's really hard there's just so much to learn from such diverse areas in so little time. The exams schedule's been really shitty and not given any space to brush up on things. Thanks anyway but no one can help me now... Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 11:32:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA83739 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:32:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <017001bfdbb0$4fc4fc60$b60d8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:59:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > If it wasnt a crappy Radio Shack brand name, I'd be all for it. Ok. Damnit all my transformer comics are at home. :o( > How about "WarpCore"? Why? Or is that a silly question? Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 11:32:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA83744 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <017101bfdbb0$51996e40$b60d8cd4@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:40:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Over 3X - yes. wow. Erm I don't suppose you could point out how - I need to speed up the CPU emulation for my GB emu from the ground up and could do with some hints, here are a few ideas I'd had previously but I'm wondering if there's anything I've missed that you used in mZ80: 1) using whole integers and ANDing and shifting rather than union structs is faster 2) braces round every switch case to localise rubbish left in variables between instructions 3) LUTs for flags (I notice you have a few more than me) 4) I like the *pc++ bit but I dismissed that previously as I didn't think it'd work too well with memory paging? That's about it. I don't quite follow how you're handling the access of 8 bit regs and the 16 bit combined versions with things like cpu.z80BC and cpu.z80C? Thanks Dave PS: sorry to take it off topic into those disgusting interpretive cores. :o) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 11:54:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA83782 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:00:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <017101bfdbb0$51996e40$b60d8cd4@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Erm I don't suppose you could point out how - I need to speed up the CPU I could point out how... if I knew how you were doing it. ;-) > emulation for my GB emu from the ground up and could do with some hints, > here are a few ideas I'd had previously but I'm wondering if there's > anything I've missed that you used in mZ80: Can you ship me a copy of your Z80 core (privately) so I can have a look? > 1) using whole integers and ANDing and shifting rather than union structs is > faster unioned structures are fine if used "properly". Make sure you align everything on 4 byte boundaries. > 2) braces round every switch case to localise rubbish left in variables > between instructions This doesn't do anything unless you have autovariables inside the case construct. > 3) LUTs for flags (I notice you have a few more than me) Yes - big help. Combine where possible. > 4) I like the *pc++ bit but I dismissed that previously as I didn't think > it'd work too well with memory paging? There are other alternatives to doing bank switching (like keeping an image of all 4 64K possibilites in memory and just changing your base pointer). Let me have a look at your Z80 core. > I don't quite follow how you're handling the access of 8 bit regs and the 16 > bit combined versions with things like cpu.z80BC and cpu.z80C? Take a look in mz80.h. They're unions. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 11:54:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA83793 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:54:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:01:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions In-Reply-To: <017001bfdbb0$4fc4fc60$b60d8cd4@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > How about "WarpCore"? > Why? Or is that a silly question? Nope! How about WarpCore? I think that'd be a good name. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:00:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83816 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <006701bfdbbc$11c7bae0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:05:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Why? Or is that a silly question? > > Nope! How about WarpCore? I think that'd be a good name. May I suggest a slight alteration to that name - to become Warp10? If you're any sort of Star Trek fan (or you're friends with one - as in my case) then you'll know why. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:02:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83828 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:02:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:08:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions In-Reply-To: <006701bfdbbc$11c7bae0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > Why? Or is that a silly question? > > Nope! How about WarpCore? I think that'd be a good name. > May I suggest a slight alteration to that name - to become Warp10? If you're > any sort of Star Trek fan (or you're friends with one - as in my case) then > you'll know why. :) Um... I think you mean Warp 9.6, but having a number in the name tends to screw up what it is if it has no relevance. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:11:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83847 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:11:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a9574175ce2_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:17:40 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Nope! How about WarpCore? I think that'd be a good name. Hmm, I prefer the hyper drive ;-) The problem I have with "WarpCore" (and also with Starscream) is that you get no hint what it is, which is why I'd still prefer something like "Mach68" although it isn't that subtle. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Adore, v.: To venerate expectantly. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:23:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83869 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:23:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a9591eb64f0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:26:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Um... I think you mean Warp 9.6 What he means is the maximum Warp speed. I think 9.6 is the fastest speed of the Enterprise but the Voyager should be capable of 9.7 IIRC... >, but having a number in the name tends to screw up what it is if it has no relevance. Indeed, and Warp68 sounds a bit odd ;-) >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!" -- Vroomfondel --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:27:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83884 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:33:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions In-Reply-To: <00036a9591eb64f0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Um... I think you mean Warp 9.6 > What he means is the maximum Warp speed. I think 9.6 is the fastest speed of > the Enterprise but the Voyager should be capable of 9.7 IIRC... Well, the Enterprise in "All good things" does Warp 13, so we know it's possible. ;-) That's why the Warp 10 didn't make sense to me. Turns out thye're not as much of a Star trek fan as Neil G once thought! ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:34:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83901 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a95c8eccd08_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:41:23 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com [Food Fight] >Hit ctrl to get past it. That's the "throw" button on the real game, and >yup - the real game does it, too. Thanks, now it works! >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Pascal, n.: A programming language named after a man who would turn over in his grave if he knew about it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:37:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83915 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:43:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight In-Reply-To: <00036a95c8eccd08_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Hit ctrl to get past it. That's the "throw" button on the real game, and > >yup - the real game does it, too. > Thanks, now it works! It's a really great game. I was thinking that it's probably best I get the game glue code working first before trying to toss it against the recompiler. It'd be lots easier knowing that we have no problem with the glue and something with the recompiler, rather than having to guess where the problem is... -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:51:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83939 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:51:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <001901bfdbbb$4753ba20$010f063e@daves> From: "David Sharp" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:59:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > I could point out how... if I knew how you were doing it. ;-) > Can you ship me a copy of your Z80 core (privately) so I can have a look? Sure I'll send it over in a few days once I've had a chance to detangle it from the rest of the GB emulation. > unioned structures are fine if used "properly". Make sure you align > everything on 4 byte boundaries. Hmm and on an ARM it has to be 4 byte aligned, guess that's not it. > There are other alternatives to doing bank switching (like keeping an > image of all 4 64K possibilites in memory and just changing your base > pointer). Let me have a look at your Z80 core. Hmm, not a bad one that, fairly obvious too, silly me. :o) > Take a look in mz80.h. They're unions. Ok thanks will do. Cheers Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 12:53:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA83950 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:59:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: my project (was RE: diner wrecker) In-Reply-To: <001901bfdbbb$4753ba20$010f063e@daves> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > There are other alternatives to doing bank switching (like keeping an > > image of all 4 64K possibilites in memory and just changing your base > > pointer). Let me have a look at your Z80 core. > Hmm, not a bad one that, fairly obvious too, silly me. :o) It saves you from having to do indirection after every instruction, which is probably what you're doing now. I'd recommend doing the normalized PC to a pointer approach to get things really crankin'. When I did this in my original cores, I got over 2X improvement. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 13:04:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA83975 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: various thankyous and questions From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a9635d715fa_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:11:51 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Well, the Enterprise in "All good things" does Warp 13, so we know it's >possible. ;-) That's why the Warp 10 didn't make sense to me. Turns out >thye're not as much of a Star trek fan as Neil G once thought! ;-) I'll translate a small passage from Lawrence Krauss' "The Physics of Star Trek" (translate because I have the German translation): "The rules of warp speed seem to be exchangable. Between the classic series and The Next Generation Gene Roddenberry decided to define the warp speed anew: He set warp 10 as upper border, where warp 10 is 2^10 = 1024x light speed. According to the "Next Generation Technical Manual" the 'normal' top speed of the Enterprise-D is warp 9.6 (1909x light speed). Warp 10 is assumed as unfinite. Nevertheless there sometimes are reports of objects that are faster than warp 10, eg. the Brog cubes. Therefore you shouldn't try to understand any tiny little bit." >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Every program has two purposes -- one for which it was written and another for which it wasn't. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 13:13:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA83996 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a96563fbc47_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:20:54 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >It's a really great game. It seems to be funny, but either MAME is more crap than I thought or BeMAME has some problems with the controls, because it's quite hard to control. >I was thinking that it's probably best I get the game glue code working >first before trying to toss it against the recompiler. It'd be lots easier >knowing that we have no problem with the glue and something with the >recompiler, rather than having to guess where the problem is... Very good idea indeed! We all know why we elected you to be the project leader ;-) BTW, I'm not sure if you missed that discussion or not, but I thought if we could use SDL for graphics and sound output (if you want to do that) since we should then have a very good portability and every team member can work with his favourite PC system. I haven't used SDL yet so I wanted to know what you think about that idea. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 13:57:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA84053 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:03:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight In-Reply-To: <00036a96563fbc47_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >It's a really great game. > It seems to be funny, but either MAME is more crap than I thought or BeMAME > has some problems with the controls, because it's quite hard to control. It's MAME. Retrocade doesn't have those weird control problems like MAME does. It's really sloppy and slow to respond, right? > BTW, I'm not sure if you missed that discussion or not, but I thought if we > could use SDL for graphics and sound output (if you want to do that) since we > should then have a very good portability and every team member can work with > his favourite PC system. I really don't care. I don't plan on using it because I'd rather not learn yet (another) API for this task. However, the project will be structured so you can use whatever you bloody well feel like. I imagine there being a Win32 version that uses DirectX, the DOS version that uses INT 13h calls and we can create platform specific extensions for whatever OS we want to target it on. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 13:58:36 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA84065 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: New Record? From: "M.I.K.e" Message-ID: <00036a96ee598c71_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:03:26 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Wow, with only 6 people writing mails we had over 120 messages in less than 24 hours! I guess that's a new record even on this list! -- M.I.K.e Life is like an analogy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 14:13:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA84094 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036a972b507be2_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:20:29 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >It's MAME. Retrocade doesn't have those weird control problems like MAME >does. It's really sloppy and slow to respond, right? Yeah, and sometimes it seems as if the character is moving without me doing anything! >However, the project will be structured so you can use whatever you bloody >well feel like. I imagine there being a Win32 version that uses DirectX, >the DOS version that uses INT 13h calls and we can create platform >specific extensions for whatever OS we want to target it on. I guess I have to learn how to use the BWindowsScreen class... >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e "... all the modern inconveniences ..." -- Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 14:37:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA84134 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:37:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:43:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Food Fight In-Reply-To: <00036a972b507be2_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >It's MAME. Retrocade doesn't have those weird control problems like MAME > >does. It's really sloppy and slow to respond, right? > Yeah, and sometimes it seems as if the character is moving without me doing > anything! The original game had an analog style joystick. When you released the joystick, it'd snap back to the center stopping Charlie Chuck. MAME Is taking the arrow inputs and positioning a fake analog joystick. There's no auto recentering, so if you went to the upper left hand corner and released the keys, it would just keep going up and left. Retrocade recognizes this and centers the joystick (as it should). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 15:00:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA84174 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:00:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:06:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: OT: Water springs found on Mars Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com I'm not sure if any of you are big fans of space travel and everything space, but this just totally rocks: http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/06/21/mars.water/index.html If I had the opportunity, I'd be first in line. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 15:35:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA84222 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:35:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:45:19 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage Message-ID: <20000621234518.A9662@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: ; from Neil Bradley on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 10:11:09AM +0000 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 10:11:09AM +0000, Neil Bradley wrote: > > > I have a few suggestions as to how we should allocate x86 registers (to > > > the 68K equivalents): > > Why not dynamically allocate registers ? When I was also thinking of a > > m68k dynarec, I once coded a simple register allocator with sort of > > "history" in order to know which ones are likely to be spilled. > > Think of it this way - You need to, at any point, know what 68K registers > are allocated in the x86 registers. And you need to be able to jump to any > address in the execution code. You'll very quickly find that doing this > sort of thing is impossible unless you want to incur massive > overhead. It's faster to just do it with statically allocated registers. ...unless there are too many source registers for your target architecture, in which case you're obliged to allocate them dynamically. I've probably mentioned before the approach I took, which is just to disallow branches to the middle of translated translation units, but to allow translation units to overlap. This may be more sensible on the ARM than other source architectures, due to predicated execution often being used instead of forward branching. I thought the 68k had more registers than the x86 (8+8 data/address registers), or am I wrong? Maybe they're 16 bit, so you can double them up in 32-bit x86 registers? I'm probably not paying enough attention though... > > There is > > also sort of register locking/unlocking mechanism if some host > > instructions require specific registers (e.g. EAX/EDX in a MUL for x86 > > architectures ?) > > Um... not that I'm aware of. AFAIR, there are (older?) MUL variations which must use specific registers? I think someone else said that already. I think register-specified shifts must use the 'cl' register for the shift amount even now though. Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 15:46:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA84242 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:46:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:52:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <20000621234518.A9662@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > address in the execution code. You'll very quickly find that doing this > > sort of thing is impossible unless you want to incur massive > > overhead. It's faster to just do it with statically allocated registers. > ...unless there are too many source registers for your target > architecture, in which case you're obliged to allocate them > dynamically. No, you aren't, and that was the crux of my note above. You can use a small subset of them in the target's registers (a predictable instead of dynamic list) and just swap the others in and out of RAM. Or are we saying the same thing, here? > I've probably mentioned before the approach I took, which > is just to disallow branches to the middle of translated translation > units, Yuck. If you have C code then stuff like that's possible, but if it's in assembly or it has any oddball branching, you can't do that. > but to allow translation units to overlap. So do multiple passes depending upon the calling routine's register allocation? Seems like a hell of a lot of work and it'd certainly use up more cache (and memory). > I thought the 68k had more registers than the x86 (8+8 data/address > registers), or am I wrong? Maybe they're 16 bit, so you can double > them up in 32-bit x86 registers? I'm probably not paying enough > attention though... It does. It's really 8 data, 7 address (1 stack), and they're all 32 bit (the 68K). The x86 has: EAX/EBX/ECX/EDX/EDI/ESI/EBP As general purposes registers - address or data. > > > instructions require specific registers (e.g. EAX/EDX in a MUL for x86 > > > architectures ?) > > Um... not that I'm aware of. > AFAIR, there are (older?) MUL variations which must use specific > registers? The original one would only allow AX and something. With the advent of the 386, it allows any register with any other register. > I think someone else said that already. I think > register-specified shifts must use the 'cl' register for the shift > amount even now though. If you want to do a register specified shift, yes, but I've yet to have to do one in all my works of emulation. But you don't have to do: mov cl, 3 shl eax, cl You can do: shl eax, 3 It's amazing how few people know this. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 16:09:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA84276 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:09:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:19:22 +0100 From: Julian Brown To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage Message-ID: <20000622001921.A9714@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> References: <20000621234518.A9662@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5us In-Reply-To: ; from Neil Bradley on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:52:13PM +0000 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:52:13PM +0000, Neil Bradley wrote: > > > address in the execution code. You'll very quickly find that doing this > > > sort of thing is impossible unless you want to incur massive > > > overhead. It's faster to just do it with statically allocated registers. > > > ...unless there are too many source registers for your target > > architecture, in which case you're obliged to allocate them > > dynamically. > > No, you aren't, and that was the crux of my note above. You can use a > small subset of them in the target's registers (a predictable instead of > dynamic list) and just swap the others in and out of RAM. Or are we saying > the same thing, here? Oh OK, I get you now. I guess the problem is then choosing which registers to use for your fixed set... which gets me up to somewhere yesterday in the discussion I think ;-) > > I've probably mentioned before the approach I took, which > > is just to disallow branches to the middle of translated translation > > units, > > Yuck. If you have C code then stuff like that's possible, but if it's in > assembly or it has any oddball branching, you can't do that. Oh yes you can :-P > > but to allow translation units to overlap. > > So do multiple passes depending upon the calling routine's register > allocation? Seems like a hell of a lot of work and it'd certainly use up > more cache (and memory). The memory thing is a problem, but not as much as you might think - the way I did it in ARMphetamine was to store all target registers in memory between translation units. Code within a translation unit can branch to the start of another translation unit (in which case all registers must be spilled to memory beforehand), to within the same translation unit (where the register allocation can be "shuffled" into the destination context, which is only stored during translation), or else the program counter can be set and control can drop back down to an interpretive emulator (which might then "boomerang" straight back into recompiled code). Sorry if that's not explained very well... I haven't done any real tests of how inefficient the overlapping translation unit thing is - I suspect that although there are probably degenerate cases where it will be fairly horrendous most of the time it won't be too bad. > > I thought the 68k had more registers than the x86 (8+8 data/address > > registers), or am I wrong? Maybe they're 16 bit, so you can double > > them up in 32-bit x86 registers? I'm probably not paying enough > > attention though... > > It does. It's really 8 data, 7 address (1 stack), and they're all 32 bit > (the 68K). The x86 has: > > EAX/EBX/ECX/EDX/EDI/ESI/EBP As general purposes registers - address or > data. OK... > > AFAIR, there are (older?) MUL variations which must use specific > > registers? > > The original one would only allow AX and something. With the advent of the > 386, it allows any register with any other register. I figured it went something like that... > > I think someone else said that already. I think > > register-specified shifts must use the 'cl' register for the shift > > amount even now though. > > If you want to do a register specified shift, yes, but I've yet to have to > do one in all my works of emulation. But you don't have to do: > > mov cl, 3 > shl eax, cl > > You can do: > > shl eax, 3 > > It's amazing how few people know this. I knew that :-) The ARM uses all manner of shifts all over the place though, I assure you... the register-specified shift amount thing is quite annoying really, since it's one of the only register non-orthogonalities I had to concern myself with for my project. Well, that and generating procedure calls back to C code... Jules -- Julian Brown, Queens' College Cambridge --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 16:52:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA84331 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:52:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:58:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Dynarec approach Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com This is review for some of you, but for the newcomers I'll reiterate some concepts that I've successfully used in DRMZ80. Typical recompiler approaches from others would create "covers" - blocks of x86 code for each translated instruction. So all it really does is take preassembled blocks and glue them in, and fix them up. There's no allowance of doing anything really dynamic. They're just assembling blocks. Instead, my approach creates a linked list of target instructions for each emulated instruction, but it uses code to create the target instructions. So the actual cover can make intelligent decisions about what it's being handed. For example, the source layer can tell the target layer to not generate any flag restoration preamble because the source layer knows that it's going to be clobbered in the next instruction. The same holds true for the flag calculation. If the source layer knows that the instruction following the current instruction is just going to clobber the flags, the current instruction shouldn't calculate the flags at all! So each cover can adjust itself based on information passed to it. This can include (but isn't limited to) short/long jumps/calls. In some cases the recompiler will already know the translated address for a given jump. So instead of generating code to look it up in the list conditionally, it can just pull the address out of the transmap and put a jump directly to it. It makes it easy to make one minor exception for a variation of a command rather than having to keep another precompiled block. The other benefit is peephole optimization when the block has been fully created/translated. Higher level optimization can occur to spot code that could potentially be collapsed, or optimized. It's sure a hell of a lot easier to do that than to try to kludge precompiled block covers. Anyway, here's what I call a sTargetOp structure. It's the state the target opcode exists in before final "Assembling" into a real block. Another advantage here is that if there are relative jumps, they can be adjusted easily: struct sTargetOp { void *vpOpcodeAddr; // Where is the opcode located? UINT8 u8OpcodeSize; // How big is this opcode? UINT32 u32SourceAddr; // The emulated address of this opcode UINT8 u8Opcode[MAXOP]; // The actual opcode data itself UINT8 u8Timing; // Is this timing code? UINT8 u8OpType; // NORMAL, BRANCH_VIRTUAL void *vpBranchAddr; // Where do we branch to? struct sHostOp *psNextLink; // Next instruction struct sHostOp *psPriorLink; // Prior instruction }; And here's a blow by blow description of each field: vpOpcodeAddr - The final resting place in memory where this opcode goes. This is used so that the emitter can figure out fixups quite easily when branches are to other sTargetOp structures. u8OpcodeSize - This is the size of this opcode (in bytes). It indicates how many bytes are present in the u8Opcode array to be copied to its final resting place. u32SourceAddr - What source address does this instruction cover? Meaning, if we're recompiling something at 0x00157c in the source processor, it cotains 0x00157c. If it's "in between" code, it's set to 0xffffffff. u8Timing - Is this timing postamble? TRUE Or FALSE. This is so the opcode emitter/optimizer routine won't do something stupid like delete it (or know where and when it can collapse groups of timing instructions) u8OpType - There are several kinds of instructions this could be: NORMAL - Instruction is just a regular, nonbranching instruction or an instruction that needs no fixup. For example, it could be a call to a memory handler routine where the memory handler address is already known, so there's no need to fix it up. BRANCH_TARGET - This means that it's a jump instruction to a sTargetOp structure, and that the address should be filled in later on. This allows the recompiler to handle jumps within blocks, so if you've got a loop where it jumps back a few instructions, you won't know the physical address of it because it hasn't been emitted yet, but you've got the sTargetOp structure so you can have the emitter fix it up at code emission time. BRANCH_VIRTUAL - Means it's supposed to jump to an emulated address that has not yet been recompiled (but it's in the block currently being compiled). vpBranchAddr - Depends upon the prior field. If BRANCH_VIRTUAL, then vpBranchAddr is the source address to jump to. If BRANCH_TARGET, then vpBranchAddr is a sTargetOp structure to connect to. If NORMAL, this field is ignored/unused. So when a recompiler hits a block to recompile (and I don't consider a conditional terminal an end of block), it hands a different linked list of source instructions to recompile to the target layer. For each instruction, the target layer emits connected lists of sTargetOp structures. By the time a terminal is reached, the target layer goes off and emits the code, returning a pointer to the address where the block begins and filling in the transmap as it goes. And it deallocates the linked list, too, since after the recompile it's no longer needed. Another cool aspect of this approach is that if a target address has not been recompiled, the recompiler can call itself with that target address to have code emitted. When it's all finished, it winds up with this big, huge linked list of code to emit. This is nice because the recompiler won't have to write code to look the address up in the transmap. It can just jump to it! I call this depth traversal, because it's traversing the depth of the source processor's code. Does your brain hurt yet? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 17:18:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA84373 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:18:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:24:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <20000622001921.A9714@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > No, you aren't, and that was the crux of my note above. You can use a > > small subset of them in the target's registers (a predictable instead of > > dynamic list) and just swap the others in and out of RAM. Or are we saying > > the same thing, here? > Oh OK, I get you now. I guess the problem is then choosing which registers > to use for your fixed set... which gets me up to somewhere yesterday in > the discussion I think ;-) Right. There's "what fixed set do we use with what" (which I wasn't calling dynamic register allocation) and "during this piece of code, what registers do we swap out?". I was speaking of the former - not the latter. > > Yuck. If you have C code then stuff like that's possible, but if it's in > > assembly or it has any oddball branching, you can't do that. > Oh yes you can :-P Unless you want to use a bunch more memory and keep records of *HOW* that region of the code was recompiled. It's still more work than it's worth. It might be wise to defer this conversation until we actually see some recompiled code (or source code). I can disassemble Food Fight if you're interested in taking a look. But it appears that A0/A1 D0/D1 are used a lot and NOT just in Food Fight! > > The original one would only allow AX and something. With the advent of the > > 386, it allows any register with any other register. > I figured it went something like that... That limitation was removed in 1985. ;-) > The ARM uses all manner of shifts all over the place though, I assure > you... the register-specified shift amount thing is quite annoying really, > since it's one of the only register non-orthogonalities I had to concern > myself with for my project. Well, that and generating procedure calls back > to C code... I'd say one special case isn't all that bad (I've written a few compilers m'self - one for the 386). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 17:18:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA84382 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <20000621234518.A9662@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <00036a99980704d0_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> <20000621234518.A9662@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 02:14:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I thought the 68k had more registers than the x86 (8+8 data/address >registers), or am I wrong? Yep, D0-D7 + A0-A7 + A7' + PSR + PC. >Maybe they're 16 bit, so you can double them up in 32-bit x86 >registers? I'm probably not paying enough attention though... Nope, apart from PSR (16-bit) all registers are 32-bit. Since I seem to be the only former 68K hacker I'll try to write a small article about that processor tomorrow. >AFAIR, there are (older?) MUL variations which must use specific registers? I >think someone else said that already. I think register-specified shifts must >use the 'cl' register for the shift amount even now though. I don't know about that letter thing but I think most of the other limitations were abandoned since the 386. >Jules -- M.I.K.e "The climate of Bombay is such that its inhabitants have to live elsewhere." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 23:18:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA84680 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:18:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006220623.IAA04800@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Heavy Traffic In-Reply-To: <00036a8f87d6d2ad_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 21, 2000 02:13:42 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:23:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Wow! After a week of silence we finally have as much traffic as in the good > old days and it's even mostly on-topic! > I don't even know to which message I should reply first! Very impressive! > Impressive? Yes. But it is 8 morning, I'm in the job and I have more than 80 mails to read. My chief will kill me. ;) I think I should buy a modem soon. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 23:28:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA84696 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:28:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006220633.IAA10669@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? In-Reply-To: <3950C2EE.294ECEFF@eurocopter.de> "from Neil Griffiths at Jun 21, 2000 03:28:14 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:33:15 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pons.ac.upc.es id IAA10669 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dynarec.com id XAA84693 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Porcierto sabes que pueola hablar un espanòl perfecto. > > Maybe. :) > ?? It is: Por cierto sabes que puedo hablar un espanyol perfecto. (* ny replaces another letter I dont't have in my keyboards because it is an english keyboard, is used in some other languages for the same sound *) > > As I can't use a fonetic alphabet in this mail I can't tell you how is > > really spelled. > > I know what you mean (I'll explain when you've replied to this e-mail!). > ?? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 23:31:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA84718 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:31:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:37:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Heavy Traffic In-Reply-To: <200006220623.IAA04800@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > old days and it's even mostly on-topic! > > I don't even know to which message I should reply first! Very impressive! > Impressive? Yes. But it is 8 morning, I'm in the job and I have more than > 80 mails to read. My chief will kill me. ;) I think I should buy a modem > soon. Uh... well, you could just pop in to dynarec.com. You've got an account there. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 23:47:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA84738 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:47:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006220652.IAA10678@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Heavy Traffic In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 21, 2000 11:37:34 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:52:30 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > old days and it's even mostly on-topic! > > > I don't even know to which message I should reply first! Very impressive! > > Impressive? Yes. But it is 8 morning, I'm in the job and I have more than > > 80 mails to read. My chief will kill me. ;) I think I should buy a modem > > soon. > > Uh... well, you could just pop in to dynarec.com. You've got an account > there. ;-) > I have enough space in my work (but I should unsubscribe my other student address, sure it's now bouncing). The real problem is that I have to read them!! Well I have almost finished. :) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Wed Jun 21 23:52:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA84751 for dynarec-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:51:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006220657.IAA15640@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <00036a8f8d7dede5_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 21, 2000 02:15:16 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:57:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >(if I'm not playing FF Tactics :(, argh!! this games is going to avoid me > >to become an emu author!! ;)) > > What is this FF Tactics anyway? > A PSX RPG from Square (a Japanese company, FF is Final Fantasy). Perhaps you know Shining Force (MegaDrive), it's the same kind. The battles resemble a board rol games, some warriors fighting in a limited ground. It's different from usual FF games. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 00:06:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84778 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006220711.JAA04183@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: DYNAREC: Some comments In-Reply-To: <00036a96ee598c71_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> "from M.I.K.e at Jun 21, 2000 11:03:26 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:11:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Well, let me see if I can remember what I have read. First, about the static vs dynamic allocation question. I think the static would be best mainly because makes the things easier and because I think that dynamic doesn't provide real better performance, it makes to add too much useless code while going in and out of translation units. And NB approach will mainly use the smallest translation unit, a single instruction. Other good point against dynamic allocation is that I think a direct memory register mapping isn't as slow now. All the registers will always be in L1 cache! I'm not sure now (I don't have the numbers) but this means is almost as fast as a register access (perhaps only 1 or 2 more cycles). How many register access will be needed to make dynamic allocation useful? About beginning to work. I think we must begin to think in somekind of file that stores all the information about the 68K instructions that will be parsed for generate the different tables we will use in decode and translation. Something similar as Generator does, an ISA definition. We can't build the tables at hand as in DRMZ80 (65536 is a lot of more bigger than 256!!). So we will have to discuss the format of the instruction definition, what info will store. And later build the definition file and the parser. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 00:25:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84800 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:25:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:31:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments In-Reply-To: <200006220711.JAA04183@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > First, about the static vs dynamic allocation question. I think the static > would be best mainly because makes the things easier and because I think > that dynamic doesn't provide real better performance, it makes to add too > much useless code while going in and out of translation units. You're talking about register allocation, right? > And NB > approach will mainly use the smallest translation unit, a single instruction. The nice thing about this approach is that you can do pre work on the source side and it still doesn't change the abilities of the target! > About beginning to work. I think we must begin to think in somekind of > file that stores all the information about the 68K instructions that will > be parsed for generate the different tables we will use in decode and > translation. Yes. That's part of the job of the source layer. Have you downloaded DRMZ80? Something very, very similar to that. > Something similar as Generator does, an ISA definition. We > can't build the tables at hand as in DRMZ80 (65536 is a lot of more bigger > than 256!!). Then you create a table that handles a masked set. For example: EORI 00001010ssmmmaaa ss = Size mmm= Mode aaa= Address So 0a00-0bff would be handled by one routine. We create a list that has a handler for each meta instruction that handles a given cover. Very simple! I already did this for the emitter I wrote for the 34010. > definition, what info will store. And later build the definition file and > the parser. Not necessary. We don't need to prefeed anything, nor generate some huge table. Unlike the Z80, the 68K's instructions are fairly orthogonal (there are some exceptions which is why I say *FAIRLY*). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 00:30:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84817 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006220732.JAA12872@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Dynarec approach In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 21, 2000 04:58:44 pm" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:32:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Does your brain hurt yet? > Why? I have been working/thinking about it some months now. ;) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 00:40:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84849 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:40:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006220745.JAA32711@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 22, 2000 00:31:30 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:45:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > First, about the static vs dynamic allocation question. I think the static > > would be best mainly because makes the things easier and because I think > > that dynamic doesn't provide real better performance, it makes to add too > > much useless code while going in and out of translation units. > > You're talking about register allocation, right? > Yes. > > About beginning to work. I think we must begin to think in somekind of > > file that stores all the information about the 68K instructions that will > > be parsed for generate the different tables we will use in decode and > > translation. > > Yes. That's part of the job of the source layer. Have you downloaded > DRMZ80? Something very, very similar to that. > If I continue working with DRMZ80 I will can write it from memory in a few days. ;) BTW, have you changed something in DRMZ80 since the first discussion? > > Something similar as Generator does, an ISA definition. We > > can't build the tables at hand as in DRMZ80 (65536 is a lot of more bigger > > than 256!!). > > Then you create a table that handles a masked set. For example: > > EORI > > 00001010ssmmmaaa > > ss = Size > mmm= Mode > aaa= Address > > So 0a00-0bff would be handled by one routine. We create a list that has a > handler for each meta instruction that handles a given cover. Very > simple! I already did this for the emitter I wrote for the 34010. > > > definition, what info will store. And later build the definition file and > > the parser. > > Not necessary. We don't need to prefeed anything, nor generate some huge > table. Unlike the Z80, the 68K's instructions are fairly orthogonal (there > are some exceptions which is why I say *FAIRLY*). > So we won't use large decode tables? How will we decode the instruction then? How you use a mask to access in a table of functions? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 00:46:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84866 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:46:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:52:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments In-Reply-To: <200006220745.JAA32711@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > If I continue working with DRMZ80 I will can write it from memory in a few > days. ;) BTW, have you changed something in DRMZ80 since the first > discussion? Hm... I'm not sure, but I don't think so. > > EORI > > 00001010ssmmmaaa > > ss = Size > > mmm= Mode > > aaa= Address > > table. Unlike the Z80, the 68K's instructions are fairly orthogonal (there > > are some exceptions which is why I say *FAIRLY*). > So we won't use large decode tables? How will we decode the > instruction then? How you use a mask to access in a table of > functions? No, we don't need to. We'll have an entry like the following (for the above example): {0x0a00, 0xffc0, EORIByte, 2}, {0x0a40, 0xffc0, EORIWord, 3}, {0x0a80, 0xffc0, EORIDword, 5}, In the first example, 0xa00 is our match, 0xffc0 is our mask, and we call EORIByte when we match it and it's 2 bytes in length. So when we hit an instruction, we can do a quickie scan of the list to find our instruction emitter cover. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 00:58:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA84907 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006220803.KAA06865@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 22, 2000 00:52:35 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:03:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > If I continue working with DRMZ80 I will can write it from memory in a few > > days. ;) BTW, have you changed something in DRMZ80 since the first > > discussion? > > Hm... I'm not sure, but I don't think so. > > > > EORI > > > 00001010ssmmmaaa > > > ss = Size > > > mmm= Mode > > > aaa= Address > > > table. Unlike the Z80, the 68K's instructions are fairly orthogonal (there > > > are some exceptions which is why I say *FAIRLY*). > > > So we won't use large decode tables? How will we decode the > > instruction then? How you use a mask to access in a table of > > functions? > > No, we don't need to. We'll have an entry like the following (for the > above example): > > {0x0a00, 0xffc0, EORIByte, 2}, > {0x0a40, 0xffc0, EORIWord, 3}, > {0x0a80, 0xffc0, EORIDword, 5}, > > In the first example, 0xa00 is our match, 0xffc0 is our mask, and we call > EORIByte when we match it and it's 2 bytes in length. > > So when we hit an instruction, we can do a quickie scan of the list to > find our instruction emitter cover. > It won't be as quick as that. The table will have more than a hundred of entries easily. But perhaps we don't need such speed, the large table approach comes from interpreters (where you can stop scanning a list of instruction). In a dynarec the translation is made only once (hopefully) so we don't need to be so fast then. A thought only: a large table will speed up or not? We don't need to save memory. My first thought was it will speed up, but now I think the speed up is really poor because the translation while be (theorically only a bit of the execution time). If we made the dynarec in that way (with those small tables) while use a lot of less memory/code than StarScream!! Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 01:02:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA84935 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 01:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 01:09:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments In-Reply-To: <200006220803.KAA06865@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > In the first example, 0xa00 is our match, 0xffc0 is our mask, and we call > > EORIByte when we match it and it's 2 bytes in length. > > So when we hit an instruction, we can do a quickie scan of the list to > > find our instruction emitter cover. > It won't be as quick as that. The table will have more than a hundred of > entries easily. And dwarfed by the time it takes to recompile and do memory block allocation for the emission. You're worrying about something that isn't a problem. If we want to speed it up later on, we'll just do a binary search or something else. There are *ALWAYS* solutions. You can take the upper byte and use that as a key to get you in the ballpark. > A thought only: a large table will speed up or not? We don't need to > save memory. My first thought was it will speed up, but now I think > the speed up is really poor because the translation while be (theorically > only a bit of the execution time). Well, considering that the array is 9 bytes minimum, 9*65536=really fucking big number. Really excessive and that's a shload of typing. > If we made the dynarec in that way (with those small tables) while use a > lot of less memory/code than StarScream!! Precisely! But Starscream is done that way for speed since it must interpret them on the fly. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 05:27:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA85339 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 05:26:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: DYNAREC: 68K info From: "M.I.K.e" Message-ID: <00036aa3ee54b6fa_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:34:00 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com To quote Duke Nukem: "Come get some!" - In this case some information about the MC68000: ENDIANNESS First of all the 68K is big-endian while the x86 is little-endian, ie.: 68K = 0x11223344 x86 = 0x44332211 SIZE Unlike the 8086 the 68000 isn't a real 16-bit processor but a 32-bit processor with smaller busses. Just in case you are interested, these are the variants: * 68000: 16-bit data, 24-bit address * 68008: 8-bit data, 24-bit address * 68010: like 68000 but with a few additional instructions * 68020: 32-bit data, 32-bit address * 68030: adds on-chip cache and MMU * 68040: adds on-chip FPU I think will deal with the standard 68000 in the beginning so I'll deal with that one. BTW, the 68K uses DEC names for data sizes: byte, word, longword; instruction suffixes are '.b', '.w', '.l'. REGISTERS The 68K has 8 data registers (D0 to D7) and 8 address registers (A0 to A7). Most operations are faster when executed on data registers while some addressing modes can only work with address registers. The address register A7 is used as the stack pointer (SP) and there is a shadow registers A7' to function as the system stack pointer (SSP) in the supervisor mode. The remaining registers are the program counter (PC) and the status register (SR). All registers apart from SR are 32-bit. STATUS REGISTER The upper half of the status registers is the system byte containung the following information: Bit 15: Tracer Mode (whatever that is...) Bit 13: Supervisor State Bit 10-8: Interrupt Mask CCR The lower half is the condition code register with these flags: Bit 4: eXtended Bit 3: Negative (= S in x86) Bit 2: Zero (= Z in x86) Bit 1: oVerflow (= O in x86) Bit 0: Carry (= C in x86) The only flag unique to the 68K is the extended flag, which is mainly handled just like the carry flag. It is almost exclusively used in instructions like ADDX, which operate on multiword values. Because of this some instructions don't touch that bit although they modify the carry, eg. move instructions clear the carry but preserve X, rotations use the carry but don't change the extended flag. ENCODING All instructions are encoded in an even amount of bytes, which also leads to code always being word aligned and the lowest bit of the PC being cleared. ADDRESSING MODES (Instructions are processed from left to right, ie. the location on the right is the destination.) Data Register Direct: "move.w d0, d3" Address Register Direct: "movea.l d3, a1" Status Register Direct: "move.w d3, sr" Absolute Short: "move.w $1000, $2000" Absolute Long: "move.l $100000, $200000" Immediate Addressing: "addi #$20, d6" Address Register Indirect: "move.w (a0), d0" with post-increment: "move.w (a4)+, $2000" with pre-decrement: "move.w -(a3), $4000" with displacement: "move.w 256(a0), $3000" with index: "move.w 100(a0,d0), 200(a1,a2)" PC relative: "move.w d0, 100(pc)" with index: "move.w 10(pc, a1), 100(pc, d1)" The instruction set is quite orthogonal, meaning that most instructions can use all these addressing modes, but there are exceptions of course. Eg. MOVEQ is only able to transfer an 8-bit constant to a data register, but it does that very quickly (4 cycles) and the instruction is short (2 bytes). ADDX is only available in two modes: "addx dy, dx" or "addx -(ay), -(ax)". THE END? I hope this helps you to understand what we will be working with. I bet there will be some unclear points so feel free to ask. -- M.I.K.e "The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 08:49:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA85529 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <000201bfdc6a$92f16180$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <200006220633.IAA10669@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Shall we get started? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:00:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Porcierto sabes que pueola hablar un espanòl perfecto. > > Maybe. :) > > ?? It is: Por cierto sabes que puedo hablar un espanyol perfecto. > (* ny replaces another letter I dont't have in my keyboards because > it is an english keyboard, is used in some other languages for the > same sound *) Damn - I couldn't read the writing! :o > > As I can't use a fonetic alphabet in this mail I can't tell you how is > > really spelled. > > I know what you mean (I'll explain when you've replied to this e-mail!). > > ?? A guy I work with is Spanish - so I got him to translate that for me ("BTW, did you know I can speak Spanish" is a bad translation). I thought you would find it funny. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 08:49:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA85545 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <000401bfdc6a$973c0380$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <1eckzz9.1ly837bm2gyy6M@[192.168.0.2]> <20000621234518.A9662@boris.quns.cam.ac.uk> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:39:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > ...unless there are too many source registers for your target architecture, in > which case you're obliged to allocate them dynamically. No, I'm siding with Neil B here. The effort it would take to find out which register you need to allocate - along with the pain of having to re-reference the old register - would just make it too slow to be useful. So long as when we write the core we can create a way that the end user can allocate registers, I think that static allocation is the way to go. > I thought the 68k had more registers than the x86 (8+8 data/address registers), > or am I wrong? Maybe they're 16 bit, so you can double them up in 32-bit x86 > registers? I'm probably not paying enough attention though... It does. Lots. Many. More. Why? :o > AFAIR, there are (older?) MUL variations which must use specific registers? I > think someone else said that already. I think register-specified shifts must > use the 'cl' register for the shift amount even now though. Eh? Not that I know! :o Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 08:49:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA85537 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bfdc6a$953cd820$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: OT: Water springs found on Mars Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:22:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I'm not sure if any of you are big fans of space travel and everything > space, but this just totally rocks: You're right, that's really cool news! > If I had the opportunity, I'd be first in line. Second, actually. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 08:49:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA85561 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:49:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <000501bfdc6a$99213e40$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:41:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > No, you aren't, and that was the crux of my note above. You can use a > small subset of them in the target's registers (a predictable instead of > dynamic list) and just swap the others in and out of RAM. Or are we saying > the same thing, here? I agree. So long as, as mentioned before, the end-user (the emu author) can decide which registers get allocated. > EAX/EBX/ECX/EDX/EDI/ESI/EBP As general purposes registers - address or > data. And it even has 2 or 3 more hidden registers - but I'm not going to touch those with a bargepole. I've got no idea what will happen if we use those - so I won't. :) > If you want to do a register specified shift, yes, but I've yet to have to > do one in all my works of emulation. But you don't have to do: > > mov cl, 3 > shl eax, cl > > You can do: > > shl eax, 3 > > It's amazing how few people know this. I've always used the latter. I never did understand (up until last year) why people did the former. I guess this is one good thing of starting quite late on with the instruction set... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 08:49:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA85565 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:49:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <000601bfdc6a$9a81b8a0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:44:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > So we won't use large decode tables? How will we decode the > > instruction then? How you use a mask to access in a table of > > functions? > > No, we don't need to. We'll have an entry like the following (for the > above example): > > {0x0a00, 0xffc0, EORIByte, 2}, > {0x0a40, 0xffc0, EORIWord, 3}, > {0x0a80, 0xffc0, EORIDword, 5}, > > In the first example, 0xa00 is our match, 0xffc0 is our mask, and we call > EORIByte when we match it and it's 2 bytes in length. Okay. So we just use some sort of jump table (that's not the correct definition) where we can just jump into the 0x0a section and work from there - a small speed increase. I hope. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 10:14:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA85661 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K info From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <00036aa3ee54b6fa_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: <00036aa7da0df010_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <00036aa3ee54b6fa_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:14:40 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Sorry, forgot to mention an important thing: ADDX D0, D1 calculates D1 = D1 + D0 + X which is very similar to what ADC does. But SUBX D0, D1 calculates D1 = D1 - D0 - X while SBB does D1 = D1 - D0 + C ! Also ADDA and SUBA (calculation with an address register being the destination) don't modify *any* flags! I hope that someone really reads this... -- M.I.K.e Real computer scientists don't comment their code. The identifiers are so long they can't afford the disk space. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 11:05:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA85733 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:05:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:12:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K info In-Reply-To: <00036aa3ee54b6fa_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > To quote Duke Nukem: "Come get some!" - In this case some information about > the MC68000: Actually, that quote is from the movie called Army Of Darkness - Duke Nukem ripped it off. ;-) > SIZE > Unlike the 8086 the 68000 isn't a real 16-bit processor but a 32-bit > processor with smaller busses. Just in case you are interested, these are the Um... no, it's a 16 bit CPU. The "bitness" of a processor is determined by the data bus width, not the register sizes. That includes the 386EX, which is 16 bit. > * 68010: like 68000 but with a few additional instructions And more importantly, some timing changes in several of the instructions. We should probably account for this in our dynarec. > BTW, the 68K uses DEC names for data sizes: byte, word, longword; instruction > suffixes are '.b', '.w', '.l'. I call 'em UINT8, UINT16, and UINT32. There's no mistaking what they mean! > The only flag unique to the 68K is the extended flag, which is mainly handled > just like the carry flag. We can simulate this in the AUX register in the x86. Real simple. > Status Register Direct: "move.w d3, sr" > Absolute Short: "move.w $1000, $2000" > Absolute Long: "move.l $100000, $200000" > Immediate Addressing: "addi #$20, d6" Another thing to note: The opcode source/destinations are backwards. It's not algebraic! > THE END? > I hope this helps you to understand what we will be working with. I bet there > will be some unclear points so feel free to ask. Glad we have you here to bounce things off of. ;-) I did some 68K work a LONG time ago, but haven't in years, so it's good. Thanks for the refresher! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 11:08:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA85744 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:14:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage In-Reply-To: <000501bfdc6a$99213e40$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > dynamic list) and just swap the others in and out of RAM. Or are we saying > > the same thing, here? > I agree. So long as, as mentioned before, the end-user (the emu author) can > decide which registers get allocated. I figure that we'll just set up a default of D0/D1 A0/A1 and if they want to override it, they can! There'll be some sort of interface where you can set various options, and we can get really crazy with it. We can also do things like indicate that sloppy timing is OK so we don't generate a sub edi, xxxx after every emulated instruction. > > EAX/EBX/ECX/EDX/EDI/ESI/EBP As general purposes registers - address or > > data. > And it even has 2 or 3 more hidden registers - but I'm not going to touch > those with a bargepole. I've got no idea what will happen if we use those - > so I won't. :) The debug registers? Don't go there... > > mov cl, 3 > > shl eax, cl > > You can do: > > shl eax, 3 > > It's amazing how few people know this. > I've always used the latter. I never did understand (up until last year) why > people did the former. I guess this is one good thing of starting quite late > on with the instruction set... And what's really annoying is that people bitch and gripe about things like the above and blame the x86 for being a shitty chip when they themselves don't even realize that you can do it any other way and have been able to since 1985! The x86 has only a minor few register specific operations and the lack of registers as its transgressions. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 11:09:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA85754 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:15:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments In-Reply-To: <000601bfdc6a$9a81b8a0$0100a8c0@lion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > In the first example, 0xa00 is our match, 0xffc0 is our mask, and we call > > EORIByte when we match it and it's 2 bytes in length. > Okay. So we just use some sort of jump table (that's not the correct > definition) where we can just jump into the 0x0a section and work from > there - a small speed increase. I hope. :) Let's go with the search method first. Keep in mind that the time it takes to search the table will be completely dwarfed by the amount of time it'll take to allocate memory and do the recompilation. I'm still puzzled why so many of you are worried about it. Compare how much time it's spending there to the rest of the recompilation process! It's insignificant! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 14:01:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA85957 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:01:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K info From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036aab20f9aee2_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:09:15 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >Actually, that quote is from the movie called Army Of Darkness - Duke >Nukem ripped it off. ;-) Ah, I only have the dubbed version of Army Of Darkness (quite a funny film ;- ) so I didn't know that, but I stand corrected. So it was a quote by Ash and not by Duke. >Um... no, it's a 16 bit CPU. The "bitness" of a processor is determined by >the data bus width, not the register sizes. Hmm, hard to decide nowadays. Would you call the Pentium a 64-bit processor just because it has a 64-bit data bus? Strangely enough the SH-4 is often referred to as an 128-bit processor, although it has 32-bit integer registers, a 64-bit data bus, and only the vector FP is capable of 128-bit operations... >That includes the 386EX, which is 16 bit. Hmm, then the first IBM PC is an 8-bit computer because it only had the 8088... >> * 68010: like 68000 but with a few additional instructions >And more importantly, some timing changes in several of the >instructions. I don't have too much information about that variations or any timing changes. I just wanted to mention it for completeness. >We should probably account for this in our dynarec. If we have to ;-) >I call 'em UINT8, UINT16, and UINT32. There's no mistaking what they mean! Sure, but when dealing with 68K instructions or documentation we will be confronted with words and longwords. >We can simulate this in the AUX register in the x86. Real simple. If you say that I'll take it as a fact. Isn't the AUX flag originally for BCD operations? >Another thing to note: The opcode source/destinations are backwards. It's >not algebraic! I think I mentioned that the destination is on the right hand side, but does't do any harm to emphasize that. >Glad we have you here to bounce things off of. ;-) Well, with all those speculations about register size and numbers on this list I just couldn't resist. >I did some 68K work a LONG time ago, but haven't in years, so it's good. I think the last time I really programmed 68K assembly was back in 1993... >Thanks for the refresher! Well, you sent me a quick introduction to the 386 so it was just fair that I wrote a little bit about the 68K. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Decision maker, n.: The person in your office who was unable to form a task force before the music stopped. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 14:01:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA85961 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:01:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00036aaaf1c04226_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:56:03 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com >I figure that we'll just set up a default of D0/D1 A0/A1 and if they want >to override it, they can! There'll be some sort of interface where you can >set various options, and we can get really crazy with it. Nice idea! >We can also do >things like indicate that sloppy timing is OK so we don't generate a sub >edi, xxxx after every emulated instruction. Also a good idea that should be quite easy to implement. >-->Neil -- M.I.K.e Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 14:19:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA85996 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:19:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:26:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K info In-Reply-To: <00036aab20f9aee2_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > >Um... no, it's a 16 bit CPU. The "bitness" of a processor is determined by > >the data bus width, not the register sizes. > Hmm, hard to decide nowadays. Would you call the Pentium a 64-bit processor > just because it has a 64-bit data bus? Um... well, uh, yes, I would because it's 64 bit internal, too. But at the same time by your definition, the Z80 is a 16 bit processor, but it's not! > >That includes the 386EX, which is 16 bit. > Hmm, then the first IBM PC is an 8-bit computer because it only had the > 8088... Correct. What's more correct is to say it's 8 bit external, 16 bit internal. > >> * 68010: like 68000 but with a few additional instructions > >And more importantly, some timing changes in several of the > >instructions. > I don't have too much information about that variations or any timing > changes. I just wanted to mention it for completeness. I've got a book that's fairly extensive about it. There are some notable differences (and when you try to use a 68010 in place of a 68K, bad things happen). > >We can simulate this in the AUX register in the x86. Real simple. > If you say that I'll take it as a fact. Isn't the AUX flag originally for BCD > operations? It's a half carry out of bit 3 into bit 4, so it's not exclusive to BCD but can be used as such. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 14:28:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA86021 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:28:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f To: dynarec@dynarec.com In-Reply-To: <00036a94365461bc_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: gb@dial.oleane.com (Gwenole Beauchesne) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:47:55 +0200 Message-ID: <1eclfh4.169vuui1hui9rjM@[192.168.0.2]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: [Posted via] Oleane User-Agent: MacSOUP/F-2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dynarec.com id OAA86014 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Well, welcome aboard! Thanks. > BTW, doesn't Basilisk II use the UAE core, which now has a dynarec? UAE has a 68000 dynarec but support for 68020+ instructions is missing or incorrect. Lauri (author of the BasiliskII Windows port) made some provisions for 68020 support and was able to boot up to the startup logo. > >BTW, I would have liked a PPC dynarec. Bill Huey (from vMac) is working > >on it but I don't know his progress though. > > PPC as source or as target? That processor is a real bitch! I meant PPC as source, for emulating a PowerMac ;-) ["second chance" register allocation] > If you are interested I could post the code, but it might be very buggy > because I never ran it through a compiler... I am interested, thanks. -- Gwenolé Beauchesne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 14:28:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA86022 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:28:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f To: dynarec@dynarec.com In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments From: gb@dial.oleane.com (Gwenole Beauchesne) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:47:56 +0200 Message-ID: <1ecnilv.44t5bb12uzllpM@[192.168.0.2]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: [Posted via] Oleane User-Agent: MacSOUP/F-2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dynarec.com id OAA86018 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > No, we don't need to. We'll have an entry like the following (for the > above example): > > {0x0a00, 0xffc0, EORIByte, 2}, > {0x0a40, 0xffc0, EORIWord, 3}, > {0x0a80, 0xffc0, EORIDword, 5}, Should we also keep a mask of CPU id that support that kind of instruction ? What I mean is that there are some instructions available on say 68020 but not on any other kind of CPU. e.g. callm but I don't quite see its purpose or practical presence in common 68k programs. Other examples are FPU instructions only available on 68881/2 but not on an integral 68040, IIRC. But well, a dynarec FPU would be hellish ;-) > In the first example, 0xa00 is our match, 0xffc0 is our mask, and we call > EORIByte when we match it and it's 2 bytes in length. I am sorry but I don't quite understand here as some EA modes require extension words (indexed modes, namely). BTW, isn't the EORI.B taking, at the minimum, 4 bytes ? two for the core instruction: two for the immediate value. > So when we hit an instruction, we can do a quickie scan of the list to > find our instruction emitter cover. You are right: scanning the entire lis/table should not be that expensive. My current description file counts around 240 "variants" of integer instructions. Besides, if speed is really needed for finding the right instruction info, one may first sort the table/list on the 4 most significant bits, as this is done in the GNU (dis)assembler [*]. Another way would be to keep only the 10 upper bits as the 6 lower bits are generally used as EA mode specifiers. [*] see in the binutils package: opcodes/m68k-{dis,opc}.c -- Gwenolé Beauchesne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 15:41:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA86133 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01bfdca4$0618d060$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <00036aab20f9aee2_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K info Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:42:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Hmm, hard to decide nowadays. Would you call the Pentium a 64-bit processor > just because it has a 64-bit data bus? Sure! :) > Hmm, then the first IBM PC is an 8-bit computer because it only had the > 8088... Absolutely, yes. The final 8 stood for 8-bit bus. The final 6 in 8086 stood for 16 bit bus. I think they got a bit lost when they came to the 386DX. :) I've just been thinking too - Intel is going to have to rename their newer chips very, very soon. They can't carry on with the Pentium series (as a name). Why? Well, PII, PIII, PIV would look crap - and you can't use PV or P5 because that was what the original Pentium was! Anyway, completely off-topic - but WTF. :) > >Another thing to note: The opcode source/destinations are backwards. It's > >not algebraic! > > I think I mentioned that the destination is on the right hand side, but > does't do any harm to emphasize that. I've been reading a little about the CPU today. That's going to confuse me. :) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 15:41:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA86132 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <002001bfdca4$0791b4c0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:44:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > > Okay. So we just use some sort of jump table (that's not the correct > > definition) where we can just jump into the 0x0a section and work from > > there - a small speed increase. I hope. :) > > Let's go with the search method first. Keep in mind that the time it takes > to search the table will be completely dwarfed by the amount of time it'll > take to allocate memory and do the recompilation. I'm still puzzled why so > many of you are worried about it. Compare how much time it's spending > there to the rest of the recompilation process! It's insignificant! I'm not worried - I'm trying to figure out how your method works! :o Anyway, a speed-up like the one I was thinking about is certainly for the end. It's certainly not important to us right now... Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Thu Jun 22 15:53:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA86159 for dynarec-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:53:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:59:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Some comments In-Reply-To: <1ecnilv.44t5bb12uzllpM@[192.168.0.2]> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > {0x0a00, 0xffc0, EORIByte, 2}, > > {0x0a40, 0xffc0, EORIWord, 3}, > > {0x0a80, 0xffc0, EORIDword, 5}, > Should we also keep a mask of CPU id that support that kind of > instruction ? What I mean is that there are some instructions available > on say 68020 but not on any other kind of CPU. e.g. callm but I don't > quite see its purpose or practical presence in common 68k programs. Well, the 68020 is enough of a departure from the 68K itself that a different dynarec probably makes more sense, but the 68010/68K itself may be something that indicates if it's enablable or not. We also need entires in the table that indicate if it uses flags on entry or alters flags on exit, and whether it's a terminal, conditional terminal or nonterminal. > > In the first example, 0xa00 is our match, 0xffc0 is our mask, and we call > > EORIByte when we match it and it's 2 bytes in length. > I am sorry but I don't quite understand here as some EA modes require > extension words (indexed modes, namely). Won't matter, because you'll know this from the first 16 bits of the instruction. > BTW, isn't the EORI.B taking, at the minimum, 4 bytes ? two for the core > instruction: two for the immediate value. Yes, it is. My mistake - as is the word. > Besides, if speed is really needed for finding the right instruction > info, one may first sort the table/list on the 4 most significant bits, > as this is done in the GNU (dis)assembler [*]. Another way would be to > keep only the 10 upper bits as the 6 lower bits are generally used as EA > mode specifiers. But we can defer this conversation until the end when things are up and going and we've found the recompilation to be a problem. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 00:40:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA86598 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:47:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Welcome to Starscream Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Some history - Starscream had a similar API to MZ80 eons ago. After much cajoling to Neill Corlett (and begging on our part so the APIs could be similar to our own cores), he tweaked them to match Retrocade's CPU cores. So the interface you'll see below is what you've seen in DRMZ80 and elsewhere in the cores I've released. ;-) By now I'm assuming that you all know what a context is. For those who don't, it's a "snapshot" or an image of an emulated processor's state. By swapping contexts in and out, you can execute bits of many cpus in succession. Starscream's context looks like this: struct S68000CONTEXT { struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYFETCH *memoryfetch; struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYIO *memoryreadbyte; struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYIO *memoryreadword; struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYIO *memorywritebyte; struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYIO *memorywriteword; void(*resethandler)(void); unsigned dreg[8]; unsigned areg[8]; unsigned asp; unsigned pc; unsigned odometer; unsigned short sr; unsigned char stopped; unsigned long cyclesneeded; unsigned char xflag; }; The fields should be fairly obvious what they do and what they are. Starscream breaks out the x flag into its own byte probably for purposes of speed and easy access. The d & a registers are taken care of above, as is the asp and program counter. The odometer is an ever increasing clock cycle count. So if you executed 10 instructions of 8 clocks each, it'd increase by 80. Starscream defines memory in three basic areas: * Execute region The execute region is where all the code fetching comes from. The memory fetch structure looks like this: struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYFETCH { unsigned lowaddr; unsigned highaddr; unsigned off; }; "off" Is really a void *, not a 32 bit offset. It points to a region where code will be executed FROM. Here's an example: UINT8 u8Region1[0x10000]; // 000000-00ffff UINT8 u8Region2[0x08000]; // 488000-48ffff UINT8 u8Region3[0x18000]; // 500000-517fff The structure for an execution memory map like above would look like this: struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYFETCH sExecMem[] = { {0x000000, 0x00ffff, (unsigned) u8Region1}, {0x488000, 0x48ffff, (unsigned) u8Region2}, {0x500000, 0x517fff, (unsigned) u8Region3}, {0xffffff, 0xffffff, NULL} // Terminator }; Whenever a fetch occcurs, this table is examined and it's fetched from the region/offset needed. * Read/write byte region This is used and accessed when a read/write byte instruction occurs. Its format is as follows: struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYIO { unsigned lowaddr; unsigned highaddr; void *memorycall; void *userdata; }; A memory map that is comprised in this fashion would look something like this: struct STARSCREAM_MEMORYIO sMemIoByteRead[] = { {0x000000, 0x00ffff, NULL, u8Region1}, {0x010000, 0x0107ff, Pokey0}, {0x018000, 0x0187ff, Pokey1}, {0xffffff, 0xffffff, NULL} // Terminator }; This is how byte read/write handlers are defined when an instruction accesses them via data access methods (and *NOT* execution). Note the first structure - because the memorycall field is set to NULL, it says "Yes, this is the proper region. However, instead of calling the function, look at userdata for the base address of memory to access." So in this case, a memory access to address 0x0007ff would access u8Region1[0x7ff]. Otherwise, in case of the pokey examples above, if an access to the region of 0x10000 and 0x107ff, the procedure Pokey0 is called to obtain the data. * Read/write word region This is identical to the read/write byte, but is a separate table that's accessed when word accesses are done. This is to eliminate dual byte calls to subordinate handlers. Dwords are just dual word reads/writes since that's how they'd appear on the 68K bus. That's it for the context and data structures. Here's a quickie introduction to the API: s68Kinit() - Initializes Starscream internally - only called once. s68Kreset() - Causes the 68K under emulation to go through a reset s68Kexec(clocks) - Causes the emulator to execute "clocks" worth of instruction time and return. 0x80000000 is returned if successful, otherwise the address where an invalid instruction or problem occurred. s68Kinterrupt(intnum) - Causes an interrupt s68KGetContextSize() - How big is the 68k's context? s68KGetContext() - Get the context structure currently being executed. s68KSetContext() - Set a new 68K context to execute s68KreadOdometer() - Reads the currently elapsed clock ticks s68KtripOdometer() - Resets the odometer ** NOTE: The above I'd call GetElapsedTicks() and have it take TRUE/FALSE as a parameter to indicate whether or not the elapsed ticks should be reset. s68KReleasetimeslice() - Causes the 68K to give up the execution cycle entirely and get out. This is handy to put in handlers to get the emulator core to stop what it's doing. So that's about it. Any immediate feedback or ideas on this? We'd just extend the context to be another structure pointer that would contain all the recompiled data. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 00:49:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA86611 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:49:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:56:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com One of the things that might make more sense is just to have the dynarec core allocate 16 megabytes of RAM and use that linear address for things and be done with it. It'll make the code much simpler than having sparse regions like Starscream has, and it'll also make things much, much faster. Comments? The other option is to just have it scan the tables each time it's about ready to do something. ;-( I guess it won't matter because it has to do that anyway. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:06:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86640 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006230810.KAA18307@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 23, 2000 00:56:09 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:10:30 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > One of the things that might make more sense is just to have the dynarec > core allocate 16 megabytes of RAM and use that linear address for things > and be done with it. It'll make the code much simpler than having sparse > regions like Starscream has, and it'll also make things much, much > faster. > I don't understand it well. Do you mean to make handle memory mallocs and frees ourselves? I thought yesterday about it, because each time you have to recompile something you have to malloc new memory, and making a call to C malloc can (I think) mean also a system call, and that can be really expensive. I would be better, as you say, to get enough memory at the start and work ourselves with it. Of course if the memory isn't enough (but this will be rare, perhaps it could be a parameter in the API) our memory functions will allocate more memory. > Comments? The other option is to just have it scan the tables each time > it's about ready to do something. ;-( I guess it won't matter because it > has to do that anyway. Here I don't understand nothing. :( What tables are you talking about? (perhaps it is a silly question) Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:11:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86653 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006230816.KAA19665@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Starscream In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 23, 2000 00:47:21 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:16:22 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > So that's about it. Any immediate feedback or ideas on this? We'd just > extend the context to be another structure pointer that would contain all > the recompiled data. > You have avoided the supervisor and user memory maps. But I don't know why are they needed? I haven't found anything about them in my 68K documentation, perhaps is something about laters models? How we can extend the context and be fully StarScream compatible? And of course why the user of the core will need to handle the information about the dynamic recompilation?. Perhaps it will be better to have separate structure and API functions. Some functions specific for the dynarec would be, for example, a memory map for self-modifying regions (if we finally handle this problem), or a special function for flushing (delete) all or part of the recompiled code. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:14:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86663 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:21:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? In-Reply-To: <200006230810.KAA18307@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > core allocate 16 megabytes of RAM and use that linear address for things > > and be done with it. It'll make the code much simpler than having sparse > > regions like Starscream has, and it'll also make things much, much > > faster. > I don't understand it well. Do you mean to make handle memory mallocs and > frees ourselves? No. Take a look at the introduction to startscream and it should make sense. Right now with the Starscream API, the entire 16MB of address space for the 68K must have memory placed in it by way of the read/write structures. I was thinking it'd be easier (and faster) if we just had 16MB of memory to work with. Then we wouldn't have to scan the handlers. > I thought yesterday about it, because each time you > have to recompile something you have to malloc new memory, and making > a call to C malloc can (I think) mean also a system call, and that can be > really expensive. Potentially, yes, but we're locally allocating a bunch of stuff and then deleting it all - leaving only a single block. The direction you took above with your question is not what I was trying to get at. > > Comments? The other option is to just have it scan the tables each time > > it's about ready to do something. ;-( I guess it won't matter because it > > has to do that anyway. > Here I don't understand nothing. :( What tables are you talking about? > (perhaps it is a silly question) Look at the read/write memory handler tables in the "Introduction to Starscream" email I just sent. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:17:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86676 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:17:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:23:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Starscream In-Reply-To: <200006230816.KAA19665@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > You have avoided the supervisor and user memory maps. Eh? How so? The memory maps are the same for the supervisor and user - only the "supervisor" bit gets thrown in the SR. That's all internal and has nothing to do with the context. > How we can extend the context and be fully StarScream compatible? We'll be starscream *API* compatible! If we add a field in the structure at the end that Starscream (the emulator) ignores and only we know about it, it'll be no problem. > And of > course why the user of the core will need to handle the information about > the dynamic recompilation?. Perhaps it will be better to have separate > structure and API functions. Then how do you connect the two? Each context will need its own recompilation information! What if you have 3 68000's? You want to be able to recompile and generate code for each processor. > Some functions specific for the dynarec would be, for example, a memory > map for self-modifying regions (if we finally handle this problem), or > a special function for flushing (delete) all or part of the recompiled code. That sounds like an API thing to me - yes. We certainly don't want to autodetect such a thing, as it'd just slow everything down. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:28:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86692 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:28:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006230832.KAA12668@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Starscream In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 23, 2000 01:23:43 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:32:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > You have avoided the supervisor and user memory maps. > > Eh? How so? The memory maps are the same for the supervisor and user - > only the "supervisor" bit gets thrown in the SR. That's all internal and > has nothing to do with the context. > Well I'm reading the Starscream doc (0.26a): struct STARSCREAM_PROGRAMREGION *s_fetch; struct STARSCREAM_DATAREGION *s_readbyte; struct STARSCREAM_DATAREGION *s_readword; struct STARSCREAM_DATAREGION *s_writebyte; struct STARSCREAM_DATAREGION *s_writeword; struct STARSCREAM_PROGRAMREGION *u_fetch; struct STARSCREAM_DATAREGION *u_readbyte; struct STARSCREAM_DATAREGION *u_readword; struct STARSCREAM_DATAREGION *u_writebyte; struct STARSCREAM_DATAREGION *u_writeword; * "s_fetch", "s_readbyte", "s_readword", "s_writebyte", and "s_writeword" are used to define the supervisor address space. "u_fetch", etc. are used to define the user address space. (see section 3.3) I can't either understand why they are needed. > > How we can extend the context and be fully StarScream compatible? > > We'll be starscream *API* compatible! If we add a field in the structure > at the end that Starscream (the emulator) ignores and only we know about > it, it'll be no problem. > Of course, you must mean the last bytes used for alignment. > > And of > > course why the user of the core will need to handle the information about > > the dynamic recompilation?. Perhaps it will be better to have separate > > structure and API functions. > > Then how do you connect the two? Each context will need its own > recompilation information! What if you have 3 68000's? You want to be able > to recompile and generate code for each processor. > We can have two sets of functions/structures. One related with the CPU (the old Starscream context) and other related with the dynarec. It will be the programmer that will have to load properly the two sets when he wants to execute something. > > Some functions specific for the dynarec would be, for example, a memory > > map for self-modifying regions (if we finally handle this problem), or > > a special function for flushing (delete) all or part of the recompiled code. > > That sounds like an API thing to me - yes. We certainly don't want to > autodetect such a thing, as it'd just slow everything down. > So it won't be a recompiler at all, just a compiler then. ;) No problem, we can let the self-modifying code problem to be handled later. The idea of letting the emu programmer handle the self-modifying code is the easier way to us. But it would be the better? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:35:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86712 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:42:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Starscream In-Reply-To: <200006230832.KAA12668@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > Eh? How so? The memory maps are the same for the supervisor and user - > > only the "supervisor" bit gets thrown in the SR. That's all internal and > > has nothing to do with the context. > Well I'm reading the Starscream doc (0.26a): > * "s_fetch", "s_readbyte", "s_readword", "s_writebyte", and "s_writeword" > are used to define the supervisor address space. "u_fetch", etc. are > used to define the user address space. (see section 3.3) > I can't either understand why they are needed. I've never seen this. This isn't in the Starscream I'm using. It might be 68020 support. > > > How we can extend the context and be fully StarScream compatible? > > We'll be starscream *API* compatible! If we add a field in the structure > > at the end that Starscream (the emulator) ignores and only we know about > > it, it'll be no problem. > Of course, you must mean the last bytes used for alignment. No, I mean we'll just tack a void * at the end of the context and we'll be good to go. > > Then how do you connect the two? Each context will need its own > > recompilation information! What if you have 3 68000's? You want to be able > > to recompile and generate code for each processor. > We can have two sets of functions/structures. Yuck! The idea is to make it simple and easy on the programmer! Just tack a void * at the end of the context structure and have it point off to whatever dynarec junk we want it to, and only the recompiler will realize it's there. The Starscream core will still be able to use it (though it'll ignore the void *). > One related with the CPU > (the old Starscream context) and other related with the dynarec. It will > be the programmer that will have to load properly the two sets when > he wants to execute something. That's only half baked. Include a void * that contains that information in the context and internally the core can choose to ignore it or use it - depending upon whether or not we're calling the emulator or the dynarec. If we have this, then the APIs will be *IDENTICAL* between the two. Having yet another set of APIs to load and unload which dynarec stuff is going on is just wasteful. Let that be handled underneath the scene. > > That sounds like an API thing to me - yes. We certainly don't want to > > autodetect such a thing, as it'd just slow everything down. > So it won't be a recompiler at all, just a compiler then. ;) No problem, > we can let the self-modifying code problem to be handled later. The > idea of letting the emu programmer handle the self-modifying code is the > easier way to us. But it would be the better? I think so. Because it gives the opportunity for the programmer to build in a bit of smarts to call the recompiler with that information. If you happen to know, for example, that a piece of code gets written at a region, you can trap it and call the recompiler with that information. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:46:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86730 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006230847.KAA11052@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Starscream In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 23, 2000 01:42:30 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:47:40 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > > That sounds like an API thing to me - yes. We certainly don't want to > > > autodetect such a thing, as it'd just slow everything down. > > So it won't be a recompiler at all, just a compiler then. ;) No problem, > > we can let the self-modifying code problem to be handled later. The > > idea of letting the emu programmer handle the self-modifying code is the > > easier way to us. But it would be the better? > > I think so. Because it gives the opportunity for the programmer to build > in a bit of smarts to call the recompiler with that information. If you > happen to know, for example, that a piece of code gets written at a > region, you can trap it and call the recompiler with that information. > The problem is that not all of the emulator authors has as many experience or knowledge as (let's call them) a core author. Some will know about self-modifying code and how to handle it and others not. A default self-modifying code handler in the dynarec would be useful. Perhaps it would be slower but what the hell it will be then the emu author problem. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:48:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86740 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:55:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Starscream In-Reply-To: <200006230847.KAA11052@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > in a bit of smarts to call the recompiler with that information. If you > > happen to know, for example, that a piece of code gets written at a > > region, you can trap it and call the recompiler with that information. > The problem is that not all of the emulator authors has as many experience > or knowledge as (let's call them) a core author. Some will know about > self-modifying code and how to handle it and others not. A default > self-modifying code handler in the dynarec would be useful. Perhaps it > would be slower but what the hell it will be then the emu author problem. We'll have the basic functionality in the Dynarec core to say "Chuck this entire region". How we hook it up later on in the project is irrelevant. I don't want to put this in now, and don't want it in by default - period - as most recompiled code that's going to be used is static anyway (ROM IMAGES!). -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 01:58:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA86755 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:58:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006230902.LAA29543@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Welcome to Starscream In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 23, 2000 01:55:17 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:02:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > We'll have the basic functionality in the Dynarec core to say "Chuck this > entire region". How we hook it up later on in the project is irrelevant. I > don't want to put this in now, and don't want it in by default - period - > as most recompiled code that's going to be used is static anyway (ROM > IMAGES!). > Well. Of course it will be silly to talk about such advance topics before having a simple dynarec built. Perhaps first we make it as you want and later we will see what we can add or extend (for example paged transmap which won't be needed in an usual arcade). > -->Neil Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 02:02:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA86925 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f To: dynarec@dynarec.com In-Reply-To: <200006230810.KAA18307@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? From: gb@dial.oleane.com (Gwenole Beauchesne) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:21:38 +0200 Message-ID: <1ecoe2o.opvqpi1fm416uM@[192.168.0.2]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: [Posted via] Oleane User-Agent: MacSOUP/F-2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dynarec.com id CAA86922 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > I don't understand it well. Do you mean to make handle memory mallocs and > frees ourselves? No, I think he meant to hold all the 68000 address space at once, in a big chunk of memory. 68000 data bus is 24 bits, hence 16 MB addressable. No memory banking will be needed, and the translation from virtual to physical host address will just require an offset. On the other hand, we definitively exclude 68020+ processors. Besides, allocating 16 MB may look too big but as on most systems, only pages that are really accessed reside in RAM, this won't be a problem. > I thought yesterday about it, because each time you have to recompile > something you have to malloc new memory, and making a call to C malloc can > (I think) mean also a system call, and that can be really expensive. This is another problem that can be solved with "lazy (de)allocation". I mean, when a block is no longer needed, just keep it in a stack of blocks. Then, next time we need a new block, pick up one. If the size is not enough, call realloc() and reajust the internal block size of the structure. System-dependant routines could also be used: mmap(), mremap(), etc. -- Gwenolé Beauchesne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 03:08:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA87002 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 03:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006230851.KAA12009@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? In-Reply-To: "from Neil Bradley at Jun 23, 2000 01:21:15 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:51:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > No. Take a look at the introduction to startscream and it should make > sense. Right now with the Starscream API, the entire 16MB of address space > for the 68K must have memory placed in it by way of the read/write > structures. I was thinking it'd be easier (and faster) if we just had 16MB > of memory to work with. Then we wouldn't have to scan the handlers. > I'm lost, sorry. I don't understand a bit. You mean all the memory map must be defined in memory? It musn't because it will be imposible. What happens with memory mapped IO? Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 03:20:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA87023 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 03:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006231021.MAA08237@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? In-Reply-To: <1ecoe2o.opvqpi1fm416uM@[192.168.0.2]> "from Gwenole Beauchesne at Jun 23, 2000 11:21:38 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:21:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com It seems my mails are being delayed somewhere ... BTW a teacher (an a program in TV I saw last week) tell me about the amount of "personal" info there are in the net. It seems you can get info about everyone. I tried it and I found, well or perhaps not. Griffiths and Koenig seem really common names and I don't have much time. But a newcomer seem more easy: http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~clairer/pages/tronches/atoh.html (or perhaps not) I haven't tried with myself (I think it will be harder though). Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 03:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA87033 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 03:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f From: Victor Moya del Barrio Message-Id: <200006230920.LAA26129@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? In-Reply-To: <1ecoe2o.opvqpi1fm416uM@[192.168.0.2]> "from Gwenole Beauchesne at Jun 23, 2000 11:21:38 am" To: dynarec@dynarec.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:20:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > Hi, > > > I don't understand it well. Do you mean to make handle memory mallocs and > > frees ourselves? > > No, I think he meant to hold all the 68000 address space at once, in a > big chunk of memory. 68000 data bus is 24 bits, hence 16 MB addressable. > No memory banking will be needed, and the translation from virtual to > physical host address will just require an offset. > But this is against memory maps. If we are using memory maps we can't have all the memory in our own buffer. And it's a waste of memory (well perhaps it isn't as bad as this). Ummm... I can't see any sense in this for data, perhaps for code, but it will be accessed only inside the dynarec, not in the recompiled code. I must have a really bad day with this subject, it seems some of my neurons have gone holiday. ;) > On the other hand, we definitively exclude 68020+ processors. Besides, > allocating 16 MB may look too big but as on most systems, only pages > that are really accessed reside in RAM, this won't be a problem. > Well 68020+ procs will come later. > > I thought yesterday about it, because each time you have to recompile > > something you have to malloc new memory, and making a call to C malloc can > > (I think) mean also a system call, and that can be really expensive. > > This is another problem that can be solved with "lazy (de)allocation". I > mean, when a block is no longer needed, just keep it in a stack of > blocks. Then, next time we need a new block, pick up one. If the size is > not enough, call realloc() and reajust the internal block size of the > structure. > I think it can be also useful to separate the memory allocation for recompiled blocks and for translation structures. The recompiled blocks will be created once (an most of cases) never deallocated. The translation structures will be allocated and deallocated a lot of time, everytime a new block of code is translated. Victor Moya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 04:52:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA87116 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 04:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Subject: Re: DYNAREC: Register usage From: "M.I.K.e" In-Reply-To: <1eclfh4.169vuui1hui9rjM@[192.168.0.2]> Message-ID: <00036ab783521cd2_mailit@mail.dynarec.com> References: <1eclfh4.169vuui1hui9rjM@[192.168.0.2]> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:55:44 +0200 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0.4 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: dynarec@dynarec.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Mail-It_--335000660" Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com --Mail-It_--335000660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >UAE has a 68000 dynarec but support for 68020+ instructions is missing >or incorrect. Lauri (author of the BasiliskII Windows port) made some >provisions for 68020 support and was able to boot up to the startup >logo. I didn't know that. I only read somewhere that it was using the UAE core. I have to admit that I'm more interested in BeBasilisk, but that doesn't seem to use the dynarec, maybe due to PPC compatibility. >I meant PPC as source, for emulating a PowerMac ;-) Ah, that could be hard! But it should be possible of course. >> If you are interested I could post the code, but it might be very buggy >> because I never ran it through a compiler... >I am interested, thanks. It should be attached. I hope I don't have too many errors in it... But it's relatively well documented so you shouldn't have too much problems to catch the basic idea. When taking a look at it after all that time I wondered why I didn't cache only destination registers like Jules does it in ARMphetamine. But it's quite obvious: I wanted to generate code for the ARM (a load/store architecture) so I need a hardware register for each simulated register during the operation anyway. This also shows that we need an alternative dynamic register allocation for RISC architectures since the static allocation would produce too many loads and stores (unless you have one hardware register for almost each simulated one) which kills the power of RISC! >Gwenolé Beauchesne -- M.I.K.e "Every morning, I get up and look through the 'Forbes' list of the richest people in America. 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message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 10:36:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA87396 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:34:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f To: dynarec@dynarec.com In-Reply-To: <200006231021.MAA08237@pons.ac.upc.es> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? From: gb@dial.oleane.com (Gwenole Beauchesne) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:53:44 +0200 Message-ID: <1ecoydp.u9axqi1bt2b28M@[192.168.0.2]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: [Posted via] Oleane User-Agent: MacSOUP/F-2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dynarec.com id KAA87393 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, > Griffiths and Koenig seem really common names and I don't have much time. Have you ever heard of the "Koenig lookup" ? I am sorry but don't count on me to explain what this thing is... > But a newcomer seem more easy: > http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~clairer/pages/tronches/atoh.html In fact I agreed to, and my photograph did not appear by magical powers. ;-) In France, one cannot put up any personal data without the consent of the person concerned. Furthermore, "any" list of names shall be registered to the CNIL (Commission Nationale de l'Informatique et des Libertés). I don't have the official translation into English but this is close to a watchdog committee that supervises the application of data protection legislation. For example: say company X has a mailing containing my full name and address. One day they decide to send me unsolicited {snail, e, whatsoever} mail, if friendly arrangements could not be made, I can tell the CNIL about the problem and they would do the rest. A short story: I once went on the Microsoft website. I downloaded something and made sure to tick the box telling "no, I don't want to receive information from Microsoft". Guess what ? Later, I received mail from them. First, I tried to "unsubscribe" by following their directions. This did not work. A few weeks later, I received again some mail from them. I was fed up, in my return mail, I "threatened" them to contact the CNIL about that if they didn't remove me from their list within the next XXX days. I don't know if any physical person read that mail, since I thought a robot was probably in charge of unsubscriptions, but I did not receive any mail any longer... Coincidence ? Maybe. BTW, how did you get with that address ? Did you just type my name in your favorite search engine ? Are you undergoing investigations about any newcomer ? ;-) Last note: I think it is now public knowledge that Intelligence Agencies (e.g. NSA in the USA, DGSE in France, etc.) have a bunch of tools in charge of retrieving as many information as possible about anything. For example: there is a program (Taïga) that is able to scan newgroups, websites about certain words: not only related to keywords but to the full semantic of a sentence as well. Another program is able to build a big graph of a site with statistics about certain keywords appearing in various colors on the graph. -- Gwenolé Beauchesne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 14:14:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA87557 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:20:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? In-Reply-To: <1ecoe2o.opvqpi1fm416uM@[192.168.0.2]> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > I don't understand it well. Do you mean to make handle memory mallocs and > > frees ourselves? > No, I think he meant to hold all the 68000 address space at once, in a > big chunk of memory. 68000 data bus is 24 bits, hence 16 MB addressable. > No memory banking will be needed, and the translation from virtual to > physical host address will just require an offset. Yes, precisely. This would greatly improve memory region access, but alas, when we do this we'll have to scan the table anyway to look for handlers. It's not that much extra work for the CPU, so forget I even brought it up. ;-( > > I thought yesterday about it, because each time you have to recompile > > something you have to malloc new memory, and making a call to C malloc can > > (I think) mean also a system call, and that can be really expensive. > This is another problem that can be solved with "lazy (de)allocation". I > mean, when a block is no longer needed, just keep it in a stack of > blocks. Then, next time we need a new block, pick up one. If the size is > not enough, call realloc() and reajust the internal block size of the > structure. Very good idea. Having a very quick opcode structure allocation routine would be quite nice. So when we get rid of an opcode structure, it would take that allocated opcode structure and add it to the beginning of a linked list of free opcode blocks. Quite snappy. > System-dependant routines could also be used: mmap(), mremap(), etc. I don't like using system dependent routines if I can avoid it. You never know what you're getting into. ;-) -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 14:15:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA87570 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:15:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:22:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? In-Reply-To: <200006230851.KAA12009@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > No. Take a look at the introduction to startscream and it should make > > sense. Right now with the Starscream API, the entire 16MB of address space > > for the 68K must have memory placed in it by way of the read/write > > structures. I was thinking it'd be easier (and faster) if we just had 16MB > > of memory to work with. Then we wouldn't have to scan the handlers. > I'm lost, sorry. I don't understand a bit. You mean all the memory map > must be defined in memory? It musn't because it will be imposible. What > happens with memory mapped IO? I was talking about the case where there were no handlers for a specific region. It would be very easy to just have a piece of code do a quick move into the memory location (when it's RAM) if it's a contiguous 16 megabyte chunk, but scanning those tables isn't exactly a hard thing to do. Forget that I brought it up. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 14:17:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA87579 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:24:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? In-Reply-To: <200006230920.LAA26129@pons.ac.upc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com > > No memory banking will be needed, and the translation from virtual to > > physical host address will just require an offset. > But this is against memory maps. If we are using memory maps we can't > have all the memory in our own buffer. And it's a waste of memory (well It's a serious waste of memory. For example, Food Fight only has about 32K of RAM, and allocating 16 megabyte for it is just silly. But I thought it might give us a huge speed advantage, but it gives us a minimal one at best. It would allow the code that's doing the write to just write to an address + offset rather than having to scan the memory map, but I've found the memory map will have to be scanned regardless. > > On the other hand, we definitively exclude 68020+ processors. Besides, > > allocating 16 MB may look too big but as on most systems, only pages > > that are really accessed reside in RAM, this won't be a problem. > Well 68020+ procs will come later. It really deserves a different Dynarec. The 68K and the 68020 are very, very different beasts. > I think it can be also useful to separate the memory allocation for recompiled > blocks and for translation structures. The recompiled blocks will be created > once (an most of cases) never deallocated. The translation structures will > be allocated and deallocated a lot of time, everytime a new block of code > is translated. Yep - I agree wholeheartedly. I'll include this in the dynarec core. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 16:31:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA87711 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Message-ID: <003601bfdd74$2e8869e0$0100a8c0@lion> From: "Neil Griffiths" To: References: <1ecoydp.u9axqi1bt2b28M@[192.168.0.2]> Subject: Re: DYNAREC: 68K Optimizations? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:36:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com Hi, >BTW, how did you get with that address ? >Did you just type my name in your favorite search engine ? >Are you undergoing investigations about any newcomer ? ;-) Heh. I didn't look but I reckon I can find info on most things pretty quickly. It's especially true when the person has a rare name. You'd have one hell of a time trying to find out about me because both of my names are popular. However, it's much more likely because I'm fairly well known in the 3D graphics card business. You'll certainly find stuff on me. Though I doubt (and hope!) that you won't find any pictures - I don't know of any that are online. :) >Last note: I think it is now public knowledge that Intelligence Agencies >(e.g. NSA in the USA, DGSE in France, etc.) have a bunch of tools in >charge of retrieving as many information as possible about anything. For >example: there is a program (Taïga) that is able to scan newgroups, >websites about certain words: not only related to keywords but to the >full semantic of a sentence as well. Another program is able to build a >big graph of a site with statistics about certain keywords appearing in >various colors on the graph. The scary thing is that some are available for public use. Like this one! http://www.bpent.com/fbi Just don't over-use it. ;) Neil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the ** message body to dynarec-request@dynarec.com. Please direct other ** questions, comments, or problems to neilb@dynarec.com. From owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Fri Jun 23 16:34:59 2000 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dynarec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA87723 for dynarec-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:34:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-dynarec@dynarec.com) X-Authentication-Warning: dynarec.com: majordom set sender to owner-dynarec@dynarec.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:41:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Neil Bradley To: dynarec@dynarec.com Subject: DYNAREC: Skeleton! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dynarec@dynarec.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dynarec@dynarec.com The initial skeleton for DR68K (for lack of a better name) is available: http://www.synthcom.com/~neil/dr68k062300.zip Some notes: * This is just to give you all an idea of how I think things should be laid out * Don't try to compile anything yet (though the memory.c and dynarec.c modules compile with no errors or warnings) * Makefiles have not been created, but we've got separate directories for each platform Here's the description of all the subdirs /platform - Place where the platform extensions should go (for Food Fight in this case) /osdep - Place where OS dependent code goes /objs - Place where object files go /sources - Place where source layer code goes /targets - Place where target layer emitters go /disasm - Place where the disassemblers go I'll work up the dr68k core API sometime tonight and begin working on the core code itself (including getting a makefile going for DJGPP - or gcc). Hey Neil, want to work on a DSW/DSP file set for this project? The directory hierarchy should be obvious where things go. And Mike, you can do the BeOS version if you'd like. Let's rock on this! -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley "Devo was exquisitely stupid. But we knew we were being Synthcom Systems, Inc. stupid, whereas a lot of people are stupid and don't ICQ # 29402898 realize it." - Gerald Casale - DEVO Cofounder --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** To UNSUBSCRIBE from dynarec, send