From sentto-2719433-41-1011249009-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 00:24:46 2002 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA12186 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:24:45 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-41-1011249009-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jan 2002 06:16:31 -0000 X-Sender: paulmcl@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 17 Jan 2002 06:30:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 97234 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2002 06:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Jan 2002 06:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.81) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2002 06:30:08 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.153] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jan 2002 06:30:08 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "paulmcl" X-Originating-IP: 4.63.193.71 X-Yahoo-Profile: paulmcl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:30:03 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] No code Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I'm afraid that I don't have any of the source code to Legos or the filestore (version 1, Hamish re-wrote it) that I wrote. I used to have a magnetic tape with a whole load of VMS stuff I wrote, and maybe other stuff, but in various moves it has got lost. I know it had the VMS implementation of ECCE I did, half in IMP and half in assembler. I'm pretty sure I don't have it rather than just hidden it in an unopened box. -- paul mclellan To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-42-1011730582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 14:10:38 2002 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21386 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:10:37 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-42-1011730582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jan 2002 20:16:22 -0000 X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 22 Jan 2002 20:16:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 11579 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2002 20:16:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Jan 2002 20:16:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail12.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.215) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2002 20:16:20 -0000 Received: from modem-2946.monkey.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.219.130] helo=oemcomputer) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16T7L6-0006is-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:16:17 +0000 Message-ID: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:23:52 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO It is only recently that I became aware of the existence of this project -- through Mike Scott, whom I regularly bump into at Ceilidh dances here in Edinburgh (well, I'm not as proficient a dancer as he is). My first involvement with Edinburgh University came when I joined a syntactic analysis project in the English Language department, on which Harry Whitfield and Paul Bratley also worked. I followed them into the Department of Computer Science. The project was under the aegis of Prof. Angus McIntosh, and the principal investigator was James Peter Thorne, who succeeded Angus as professor of English Language. Sadly, Jimmy died in post a number of years ago; I still miss him. He was a superb raconteur, and a great source of gossip (only slightly malicious and embroidered) about University politics and intrigue. Not a little of this, it should be said, related to the setting up and evolution of such entities as the Machine Intelligence Unit, the Departments of Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence, and the Edinburgh Regional Computing Centre. I eventually left the Department of Computer Science in 1984, to set up Clan Systems, along with Igor Hansen. It was good to read the message from Prof. Donald Michie. Donald was one of the key people responsible for putting Edinburgh on the computing map, and his annual Machine Intelligence workshops, which attracted leading figures from around the world, created a real buzz of excitement. I wonder if he is considering writing his memoirs. I am sure they would make fascinating, and controversial, reading. The unforgettable and much-loved Prof. Sidney Michaelson has been mentioned in earlier posts, but another key figure was Dr G E ('Tommy') Thomas, Director of the Edinburgh Regional Computing Centre (ERCC). Like Sidney and Donald, Tommy had vision on the grand scale, and worked tenaciously, and with considerable success, to put in place and nourish the resources to implement that vision. To return to the Edinburgh Computing History project, I find it intriguing, touching even, that anyone should be interested in re-visiting some of the old stuff created in Edinburgh. For me, the period was one of great potential and invention, but in many ways the potential was not realised.There was too much emphasis on the individual virtuoso performance, and not enough on teamwork and stability. I accept my full share of the blame for that. Leaving that aside, many of the problems which we faced in those days were due to insufficient computer resources, particularly storage. This was especially true of the early single-user systems, such as the PDP8, PDP7/9/15, Interdatas, etc. The reverse-loading technique which I used for the PDP9 IMP compiler would not have been necessary if the machine configuration had included either random-access storage or sufficient immediate memory. (If I remember correctly, early versions of the compiler produced the object-code on paper-tape which was then literally read backwards to load the program. All to fix up the forward references of course. Fanfold paper-tape was quite convenient for this). I would be quite embarassed to have my early implementations of ECCE exposed to view. By any standards of programming practice, they are appalling -- full of jumps and labels to achieve opportunistic code sharing, for example. But it did allow ECCE to be implemented, and efficiently implemented, on a number of modest hardware configurations. (On the subject of ECCE, I was interested to read Chris Whitfield's remark about the original implemention of ECCE being by Alan Freeman on the PDP8. Until now, I thought I was the begetter of ECCE, although like everything else it built on what went before. My recollection is that Alan Freeman did indeed implement a context-editor on the PDP8, but it did not have the structure and features of ECCE, such as the use of Regular Expressions for programmatic editing.) As another example of overcoming hardware deficiencies, I devised HAL (High-Level Assembler) largely because I despaired of being able to produce a compiler for machines like the ICL 7502, which had about the worst machine instruction set that I ever encountered. (Not quite the worst. I think a machine called Arcturus was worse. It had 18-bit instructions and 16-bit data words. How you were supposed to load programs was a mystery. The only other thing I remember about it was that it had a SEX instruction -- Sign EXtend, natch, what did you think). I have to wonder if there is any merit in resurrecting some of this stuff, except along the lines that George Bernard Shaw used about parents: that they should never hold themselves up to their children as an example, only as a warning. Finally, I still write the occasional IMP program, to meet an ad hoc computing requirement, such as plotting my blood pressure (rising) or the performance of my share portfolio (falling). This runs on a Clan workstation, designed by Igor Hansen, which is a sort of grandson of the APM machine (aka the Fred machine). I also use a laser printer with a Clan-designed controller, which supports a much-enhanced version of Layout, among other protocols. Warm greetings to all former students and colleagues, Hamish Dewar. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-43-1011841338-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jan 23 20:56:30 2002 Received: from n5.groups.yahoo.com (n5.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.55]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17207 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:56:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-43-1011841338-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n5.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 03:02:18 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 03:02:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 71932 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n34.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.84) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.134] by n34.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 03:02:10 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:02:07 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., "Hamish Dewar" wrote: > It is only recently that I became aware of the existence of this project -- through Mike Scott, whom I regularly bump into at Ceilidh dances here in Edinburgh (well, I'm not as proficient a dancer as he is). Thanks Hamish, it's really good to have you on board. > To return to the Edinburgh Computing History project, I find it intriguing, touching even, that anyone should be interested in re-visiting some of the old stuff created in Edinburgh. > For me, the period was one of great potential and invention, but in many ways the potential was not realised.There was too much emphasis on the individual virtuoso performance, and not enough on teamwork and stability. I accept my full share of the blame for that. I think probably the majority of us feel the same way - we (collectively) missed a great opportunity to shape the future of computer science worldwide. But you are wrong in one respect - the problem that Edinburgh had was not one of individuals - many successful projects (most???) have been the result of one person. The problem that Edinburgh had was twofold: firstly, we did not subscribe to the American ethic of 'publish or perish'. We were quite happy to rest contented once we had cracked a difficult problem. We didn't really care if anyone else knew, in fact it went against the grain to brag; secondly, almost everyone involved in those days was an academic; there were very few entrepreneurial types, and those who were went off to do their own thing (eg Grid luggable laptops) but not the *right* thing. A good manager with the commercial drive of a Bill Gates would without any doubt in my mind have taken the Edinburgh teams and made them into something that would have had global significance. > I would be quite embarassed to have my early implementations of ECCE exposed to view. By any standards of programming practice, they are appalling -- full of jumps and labels to achieve opportunistic code sharing, for example. But it did allow ECCE to be implemented, and efficiently implemented, on a number of modest hardware configurations. Although I'm hoping that this group can salvage some of the operating systems (yours, legos, EMAS etc) programs like Ecce are still a significant part of the Edinburgh culture and the fact that there have been maybe twenty different independently-written versions confirms that - and I think it's fascinating to watch the development of Ecce from those early sources with jumps etc to some of the current ones such as those in C and Pascal. (I vaguely remember a Coral60 implementation from my days at GEC even! Although it might have been in 4000 series assembler) > I have to wonder if there is any merit in resurrecting some of this stuff, except along the lines that George Bernard Shaw used about parents: that they should never hold themselves up to their children as an example, only as a warning. Please don't think that way!!!! That is the same sort of attitude that folks had back in the days. When you're a perfectionist, you never want to release anything to the world because you think you can still do better. But if we had done so 20 to 30 years ago, we wouldn't be sitting in front of a crap OS like Windows today. All the other competing systems that were contemporary with ours - Unix, EMACS, - they were all a pigs ear inside. We had *nothing* to be ashamed of. I think it is really important that we save that old work before it is lost forever because in the future, historians will look back on it with the same awe that we look back on Babbage's difference engine, and say "you know, that really was ahead of its time". > Finally, I still write the occasional IMP program, to meet an ad hoc computing requirement, such as plotting my blood pressure (rising) or the performance of my share portfolio (falling). This runs on a Clan workstation, designed by Igor Hansen, which is a sort of grandson of the APM machine (aka the Fred machine). I also use a laser printer with a Clan-designed controller, which supports a much-enhanced version of Layout, among other protocols. This really warms the cockles of my heart. > Warm greetings to all former students and colleagues, > Hamish Dewar. Don't be a stranger! And think about any place you may have stashed your early sources, because I hope to come knocking on your door soon (electronically I mean) to filch as many of them as you'll let us, to add to the archive. By the way, I received a copy of Vecce from Keith Refson today and will be using it to officially open the archives with as the first formal exhibit this weekend. regards Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-44-1011880822-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 07:54:33 2002 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com (n9.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.59]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA02054 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:54:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-44-1011880822-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n9.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 14:00:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 90358 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 14:00:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:21 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-73-206-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.73.206] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16TkQJ-0003vk-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:00:15 -0500 Message-ID: <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:58:57 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Hamish Glad to see that you've joined the list. I kept forgetting to mention it again at the ceilidhs - too many other "distractions" - you know what I mean. >> It is only recently that I became aware of the existence of this project -- through Mike Scott, whom I regularly bump into at Ceilidh dances here in Edinburgh (well, I'm not as proficient a dancer as he is). << I note that the last time I saw you doing a Cumberland Square Eight was at the Caley about 2 years ago, when our set gradually drilled itself into the concrete and collapsed in a heap. So although we didn't bump into each other on that occasion, we did bump ourselves and our partners into the floor! So although we all cringe at things we've done, they're not ever as bad as we think - don't let that hold you back from contributing your old source code. I for one would be very interested to see it. And maybe you'll be brave enough to join in another Cumberland one day... :-) >> I eventually left the Department of Computer Science in 1984, to set up Clan Systems, along with Igor Hansen. << Reiner Thonnes and I affectionately referred to your company as "Clown Systems". I'm not sure whether that was simply because of the silly almost-rhyme, or if it was a reference to the proprietors... >> For me, the period was one of great potential and invention, but in many ways the potential was not realised... << I second Graham's sentiments on this. I was intensely frustrated with the operating systems in the early '80s. I'd had quite a deep look at Unix and its kernel and wasn't impressed. When people said how good Unix was, they were really meaning that it had a great tool set and nice scripting. But Unix under the hood is horrible. If you have a look at the Linux kernel - even the latest stable 2.4 version - the code is full of gotos and isn't elegant at all in many places. >> I would be quite embarassed to have my early implementations of ECCE exposed to view... << We don't want you to expose yourself - we do enough of that at ceilidhs, Hamish. Did you not write VECCE? I remember using it on Visual 100s or 200s attached to the CS VAX to get through to my EMAS account at 9,600 baud - the old Perkin Elmers that we poor CS1 students were supposed to use only ran at 1,200 or 2,400 baud if memory serves. It's amazing how much faster 9,600 baud seemed and also how much nicer it was to use VECCE than ECCE. Now 9,600 baud seems unbelievably sedentary! >> As another example of overcoming hardware deficiencies, I devised HAL (High-Level Assembler) << Didn't the CS2 students do a simple OS project in HAL, either on the Interdatas or on Motorola 6809 development kits? Which one was it, or was it neither? I also remember the first time I saw a mouse was this nasty red plastic thing with 3 buttons, which looked suspiciously like ones I'd seen in a Maplin catalogue, attached to a Fred machine. I remember writing some code to call Fred's graphic routines using the mouse for input and being impressed at how fast his circle fill was. I think this was about the same time as the Apple Lisa - which was the second machine I saw with a mouse. >> ...18-bit instructions and 16-bit data words... << Ouch! We may all remember these days fondly, but there were also many insanities! I'm sure that compared to this, your ECCE code can't really be that bad - everything is relative. Personally, I'd like to see your IMP compiler for the Fred machine (or its derivatives). Since you have admitted to using IMP now and again even today, you surely must have the code for the compiler. Any chance of releasing that? Also, as we discussed in the pub on Rose Street after the grab-a-granny session in Princes Street Gardens, I'd be interested in hearing more about that routing algorithm and software that you developed for PCB design. If you're too shy to talk about it here in public, maybe I can bribe you with alcohol in one of our many hostelries? :-) Mike Scott. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-45-1011880823-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 07:54:32 2002 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA02055 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:54:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-45-1011880823-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 14843 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-73-206-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.73.206] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16TkQK-0003vk-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:00:16 -0500 Message-ID: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:00:17 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Graham >> By the way, I received a copy of Vecce from Keith Refson today... << So who was the originator of Vecce? Mike. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-46-1011887839-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 09:51:29 2002 Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06139 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:51:28 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-46-1011887839-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 15:47:10 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 59107 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g0OFudF04574 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:56:39 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.181] (black52.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.181]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29596 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:56:35 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> References: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-ECS-MailScanner: Scanned successfully From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:55:32 +0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Ecce Sources and Objects Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Here follow extracts from two messages sent in July/August 2001. First message: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There have been dozens of versions of ecce over the years. I have most recently made versions for the Macintosh, both as a native application and as an extension to run within BBEdit (my favourite editor on the Mac). The version that I run on Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.7 Generic October 1998 is based on Pascal source. You will find the source and manual page in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.pas http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.doc The calling shell-script and SunOS 5.7 binary are in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/bin/ecce http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/bin/ecce1 Source for my Macintosh C/C++ version 3.5 is in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.c Source for my C/C++ Linux version 3.3 is in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.cp There is a general manual page in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.txt There is a (Classic) Macintosh application (Version 2.01) based on Pascal source in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.sea.hqx There are (Classic) Macintosh BBEdit extensions (including Ecce) in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/BBXTs.sea.hqx ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Second message: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These versions are based on versions of ecce that date from the mid to late sixties. (From the man page): H. Whitfield, Computing Laboratory, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU. This editor is based upon older versions by H. Dewar and others of the Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh. The original version was probably written in IMP (a development from Atlas Autocode). Over the years I (and others) have produced versions coded in various programming languages including Algol 60, Fortran, Pascal, C/C++ etc. The main advantage of ecce was that it was easy to port to a new machine, and could often be got to work first time, so that one did not need to learn a new editor. Over the years, the people at Edinburgh made other versions, including versions that worked on VDUs and provided a multi-line display format. I don't know whether any of those versions still exist. I have made versions for my own use on Unix and the Macintosh. As ecce does not have a modern GUI, I tend to use it (on the Mac) within BBEdit rather than as a stand-alone application. In answer to your specific questions: >1. I cannot edit file1 into file2 using "ecce file1 file2" The basic ecce program compiled into ecce1 does just that! So you could say ecce1 file1 file2 The shell program in ecce wraps ecce1 up so that you can do ecce file1 to make a new file1 or edit an old file1 to produce a new file1 but keep the old version in file1.bak. You can change the shell to do whatever you like, including the execution of ecce commands on the command line as in ecce file1 file2 %s=some_commands If you are not familiar with shell programming, I'm sure your local Unix guru would be able to help. >2. I can't see how to exit without saving I don't think there is a way to do that in my version of ecce1. That is because the program works by copying the input file into an internal buffer and pushing data to the output file when the internal buffer gets full. If you edit a file which is longer than the internal buffer, the program will have written data to the output file. So you have to do %c to get a consistent state. You could make the internal buffer bigger, if you wished, but the problem could still occur. You could alter the shell to edit a copy of your file. If you used ^C to abort the operation, the original file would still be there. >3. The "^" copy/paste system isn't there, (eg. the sequence below would >copy the first 3 characters of each line to the end of the line:) >>(^r3^ r0 i@ m)0 It never has been in versions I've seen. That must have come along later. >4. There's no %h help True. That wasn't in the original version of ecce, either! However, the manual page probably tells you all you need to know. %h would be easy enough to do, but hardly worth it. >5. I used to be able to invoke ecce to run with some commands with (I >think): > >ecce file1 file2 %s=some_commands See above. Should be possible with a modified calling shell program. > Is this all down to some special version of ecce I had been using >previously, or are these sorts of things present but under different >syntax? I suspect that you have been using a later version of ecce, which has been embellished. The copy/paste would require some thought and a program change, and I've not done anything major with ecce for years, so I'd be reluctant to start on that. The other things you ask about could be achieved by having a cleverer shell calling program. That is an exercise for the reader (or your Unix guru). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Needless to say, I have no objection to these programs being copied and/or used subject to the condition that users do so entirely at their own risk. Kind regards, Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-47-1011893582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 11:27:15 2002 Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09486 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:27:12 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-47-1011893582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n33.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 17:33:02 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 17:33:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 56746 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 17:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 17:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 17:32:56 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:32:55 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [80.195.42.50]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:32:55 +0000 Message-ID: <000b01c1a4fd$9ba44600$322ac350@jgh2> To: References: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:36:08 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Ecce Sources and Objects Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello to all the recent new commers to the list. > Over the years, the people at Edinburgh made other versions, including > versions that worked on VDUs and provided a multi-line display format. > > I don't know whether any of those versions still exist. I still use VECCE on our VAX and Alpha VMS systems as my editor of choice, even though I am now also tri-lingual with VI and EMACS. This is the Lattice Logic dervitive which added normal VMS command line parsing to Hamish's version. I think I have the Imp source of it somewhere, although have not needed it in the last 12 years since leaving Lattice Logic! There is a lot to be said for the binary compatibility of the VMS systems from VAX to Alpha, and the Sun systems from Solaris 1 to Solaris 2! Everyone in my department at Compugraphics uses VECCE with some of the "magic spells" which I have documented to do things like tailing space deletion, or trailing CR deletion when files have been FTP'ed to us in the wrong modes. The extensions to do arithmetic on numbers are partiularly useful when editing job set up files. (And I often write Imp programs for VMS or Solaris too, which I can still do faster, and they are more efficient that my equivalent C programs!) best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-48-1011902309-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 13:52:37 2002 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14342 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:52:37 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-48-1011902309-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n10.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 19:58:29 -0000 X-Sender: keith.refson@ntlworld.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 19:58:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 61459 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 19:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 19:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta02-svc.ntlworld.com) (62.253.162.42) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 19:58:27 -0000 Received: from orac.15green.net ([213.105.169.109]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020124195825.LJPF8848.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@orac.15green.net> for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:58:25 +0000 Received: by orac.15green.net (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6FA802FE2A; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:07:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <15440.27008.283755.807903@orac.15green.net> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> References: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Mailer: VM 7.00-rfhacked under 21.4 (patch 4) "Artificial Intelligence" XEmacs Lucid From: Keith Refson X-Yahoo-Profile: krefson MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:07:28 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Mike Scott writes: > Hi Graham > > >> By the way, I received a copy of Vecce from Keith Refson today... << > > So who was the originator of Vecce? I got it from Hamish Dewar, and hacked it about a bit, on both EMAS/Amdahl and Vax/VMS. I used it until the early 90s. After that I didn't have an IMP compiler so it fell out of use. Keith Refson - Dr Keith Refson, Building R3 Rutherford Appleton Laboratory Chilton Didcot Oxfordshire OX11 0QX T: 01235 446652 K.Refson@ F: 01235 445720 @rl.ac.uk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-49-1011903633-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 14:14:45 2002 Received: from n12.groups.yahoo.com (n12.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.62]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15280 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:14:44 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-49-1011903633-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 20:20:33 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 20:20:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 85437 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 20:20:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 20:20:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 20:20:31 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA15259 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:14:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201242014.OAA15259@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:14:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Ecce Sources and Objects Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I've put what I have so far online temporarily at http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/ If you have any other sources of ecce not listed here, email me and I'll arrange with you to get them to me. Significantly we don't have a single IMP version of the old command-line ecce yet! I'm thinking JGH and Rainer may be the people to call on at the moment for versions of Ecce. Let's try to 'do' ecce over the next 7 days. Maybe by tackling one specific program at a time, we may make more progress than we had been doing until now. (Did anyone keep a copy of Richard Marshall's "red", which was a redesigned editor that was not Ecce, but was roughly what Ecce might have been if it were consistent in its use of parameters throughout?) NOTE: the yahoo groups server seems to have had a brain haemorrhage today and most of our old articles are lost. Since those articles were actually our memos as to what was where, I think I had better recover my copies of all of them from old mailboxes and put those on the web site too. I was fascinated to see in the Vecce archive that Hamish had rewritten his Imp syntax checker, using the parser from his 68000 version of Imp. I hadn't seen that one before but I was very familiar with the old version. [Some day after this project is much more developed, - with, we hope, significant amounts of Imp source online - that checker might be used as a basis of a student project to write an Imp to C translator?] Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-50-1011910417-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 16:07:45 2002 Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19539 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:07:45 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-50-1011910417-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n35.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 22:13:37 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 22:13:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 6703 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 22:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 22:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 22:13:35 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-73-206-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.73.206] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16Ts7a-0004Ji-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:13:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01cb01c1a524$5dac4060$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> <15440.27008.283755.807903@orac.15green.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:13:17 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Keith >> I got it [Vecce] from Hamish Dewar... I remember when it first appeared at Edinburgh, that Hamish was reputed to be the author. Hamish, could you tell us if this is true and, if so, how Vecce came about. Mike. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-51-1011918215-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 18:18:01 2002 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.80]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA24067 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:18:00 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-51-1011918215-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2002 00:23:47 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 25 Jan 2002 00:23:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 64920 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 23:59:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 23:59:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 23:59:11 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA23138; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:52:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201242352.RAA23138@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:52:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Hamish: check list... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hamish, this is what I remember of your work or at least the parts of it that I've used. I'm sure there are programs I've missed, and systems I've forgotten. Could you fill in any blanks that you can remember for us please? thanks Graham ---------- Languages: Imp for PDP9/15 68000 POP2 (written in Imp) AI2LOGO (ditto) HAL 7502 Interdata Operating systems: PDP9/15 Second version of filestore (after Paul McLellan's version) Ecce/Vecce (which systems did you do, and which did other people port to independantly that you know of?) %check (imp syntax checker in ecce. What was the stand-alone one called?) Rewrite using 68000 Imp parser Compare Do you have a date for when you first wrote this, and were you aware of unix 'diff' when you did so? Layout Paper: 'The syntactic analysis of English by machine' ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-52-1011973013-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Jan 25 09:30:58 2002 Received: from n6.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.56]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17865 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:30:58 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-52-1011973013-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n6.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2002 15:36:53 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 25 Jan 2002 15:36:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 61335 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2002 15:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Jan 2002 15:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2002 15:36:52 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA17856 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:30:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201251530.JAA17856@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:30:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Welcome to Geoff Millard Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I spoke to Geoff Millard (by email) yesterday and he thinks he can help with documentation and sources. He's going to be out of touch for a couple of weeks, but when he returns he's looking forward to chatting to old friends he's lost touch with via this group. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-53-1012049881-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Jan 26 06:52:07 2002 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA24865 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 06:52:06 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-53-1012049881-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n2.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2002 12:58:02 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 26 Jan 2002 12:58:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 70045 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2002 12:58:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2002 12:58:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2002 12:58:00 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:57:59 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [80.195.42.50]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:57:58 +0000 Message-ID: <002b01c1a669$8d8eafc0$322ac350@jgh2> To: References: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> <15440.27008.283755.807903@orac.15green.net> <01cb01c1a524$5dac4060$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:01:21 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] ECCE and EDWIN comments Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I remember when it first appeared at Edinburgh, that Hamish was > reputed to be the author. Hamish, could you tell us if this is true > and, if so, how Vecce came about. I would be interested to hear Hamish's current comments, but thought that I would remind everyone on what Lee Smith wrote in the Departmental Report (24) on ECCE in May 1978: "The design of ECCE is based on ideas developed by Alan Freeman, Chris Whitfield and Hamish Dewar. Numerous people within both the Department of Computer Science and the Edinburgh Regional Computing Centre have contributed to implementations of ECCE." Hamish's comment in Nov 1984 in Departmental Report (175) on the video version of ECCE states: "I am grateful to a number of colleagues, past and present who have contributed to the development of ECCE. Alan Freeman's paper-tape editor for the PDP8 introduced me to the concept of context-editing and Chris Whitfield made many comments on the original specification. More recently Paul McLellan, John Murison, Douglas Buchannan, Richard Marshall and Graham Toal have been a source of ideas for improvement. Lee Smith was responsible for the first proper users' manual, which I have drawn on in preparing the present document." Hamish's recent comment "many of the problems which we faced in those days were due to insufficient computer resources", ring a bell with me on the implementation of the graphics package, EDWIN. This was an application which really wanted floating point numbers, but was shoe-horned in to the interger-only environment of the departmental mini-computers. Fast drawing speed was everything. As a result it was very efficient, and for many years could out perform many other larger graphics packages. Like all good code it still exists, and is used as part of the ARTVIEW program from the Lattice Logic Shapesmith software, which I know is still in use at Atmel and Compugraphics to the present day (>15 years after any developments have ceased). Based on what Hamish has already said, my guess is that there was no "big-bang" beginning to ECCE, rather the development of existing ideas and implemenations. The same is certainly true for EDWIN. The Tektronix driving parts of EDWIN drew on the existing procedure library called "The Macpherson package", with the original Calcomp driving code being my implementation of published algorithms for drawing lines using only integer arithmetic. Version 1 only supported two devices (Tektronix and Calcomp) and at least tried to do this in a device independent manner. It was only really by release 3 of EDWIN that a clean distiction of device interpendent driving modules was included. Following up on comments from GT, I think that this reflects the Scottish approach of saying "I was a catalyst who made it happen" to the USA style of "I was the person who did it all". best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-54-1012181224-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Jan 27 19:21:04 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA22971 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:21:04 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-54-1012181224-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2002 01:27:05 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 28 Jan 2002 01:27:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 56082 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2002 01:27:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2002 01:27:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2002 01:27:03 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id TAA22954 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:20:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201280120.TAA22954@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:20:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] MAJOR NEWS: old Emas archives... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I discovered on Friday from mail with Graham Rule that the old EMAS archives have been in the process of being transferred to a CD jukebox and at some time this year will be available again! This is truly superb news for our project. Not only does this guarantee that the final running version of EMAS has been preserved, but everyone who used EMAS and the ERCC to back up their other projects stands a good chance of finding them again. Of course many of us may have forgotten our user IDs and there's clearly going to be a lot of management work re copyright clearance in getting access to certain accounts, but the fact that the code survives in machine readable form is fantastic news. I know that as an undergrad I had copies myself of some of the more interesting programs. For instance while in AI2 I remember studying Hamish's AI2LOGO source (in imp) and learning some useful programming techniques from it. Please post any recollections you may have of anything you remember from when you used EMAS that was archived, or still online when EMAS was withdrawn from service. (I'm not sure if the new archive will contain files that were "CHERISH"ed or only those that were archived. We'll find out fairly soon however) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-55-1012190275-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Jan 27 21:51:55 2002 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA27310 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:51:55 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-55-1012190275-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2002 03:57:55 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 28 Jan 2002 03:57:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 73747 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2002 03:57:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2002 03:57:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.71) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2002 03:57:54 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.165] by n21.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2002 03:45:49 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002b01c1a669$8d8eafc0$322ac350@jgh2> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:57:52 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: ECCE and EDWIN comments Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., "J Gordon Hughes" wrote: > Hamish's recent comment "many of the problems which we faced in > those days were due to insufficient computer resources", ring a > bell with me on the implementation of the graphics package, EDWIN. > This was an application which really wanted floating point numbers, > but was shoe-horned in to the interger-only environment of the > departmental mini-computers. Yes, I remember that MULDIV() was a standard library item on all departmental systems, and I was very disappointed when I went out into the world and discovered that the rest of the world didn't take it for granted. Although I must say that I had always thought that avoiding floating point arithmetic was a Good Thing if at all possible. But that might just be because despite the very broad education we received at Edinburgh, writing a floating point library was the one subject we simply never covered! > Based on what Hamish has already said, my guess is that there > was no "big-bang" beginning to ECCE, rather the development of > existing ideas and implemenations. The same is certainly true > for EDWIN. The Tektronix driving parts of EDWIN drew on the > existing procedure library called "The Macpherson package", > with the original Calcomp driving code being my implementation of > published algorithms for drawing lines using only integer arithmetic. JGH may or may not be aware of this (I can't remember if we enlisted your help at the time) but my first job after graduating was at GEC in London, where I was working for Jeff Tansley on some VLSI layout tools. My very first paid programming job was to convert EDWIN from Imp to GEC Pascal! My second paid programming job was to find all the compiler bugs in GEC Pascal and help their compiler team fix them, since the compiler had never been used in anger before! Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-56-1012220518-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Jan 28 06:15:57 2002 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA08581 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:15:56 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-56-1012220518-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2002 12:21:58 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 28 Jan 2002 12:21:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 78054 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2002 12:21:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2002 12:21:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2002 12:21:57 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id GAA08563; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:15:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201281215.GAA08563@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:15:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] New members Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Peter Stephens has checked in, with the offer of a listing of the EMAS supervisor that he worked on; and Roy Omond (I think contemporary with [Gordon] and [JGH]) has got in touch with us too, with some info on the RTM kits. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-57-1012261885-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Jan 28 17:45:22 2002 Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.73]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA05071 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:45:21 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-57-1012261885-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2002 23:51:25 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 28 Jan 2002 23:51:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 85289 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2002 23:51:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2002 23:51:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 2002 23:51:24 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:51:23 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [80.195.42.55]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:51:23 +0000 Message-ID: <003801c1a857$297f1520$372ac350@jgh2> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:54:45 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: ECCE and EDWIN comments Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Although I must say that I had always thought that avoiding > floating point arithmetic was a Good Thing if at all possible. Necessity is the mother of invention - as they say. The use of integers also made a positive contribution to performance. > But that might just be because despite the very broad education we > received at Edinburgh, writing a floating point library was the > one subject we simply never covered! The thing which worries me is that fact the programmers produced today seem to know even less about floating point arithmetic than I do - which is not much.... > JGH may or may not be aware of this (I can't remember if we enlisted > your help at the time) but my first job after graduating was at GEC > in London, where I was working for Jeff Tansley on some VLSI layout > tools. My very first paid programming job was to convert EDWIN > from Imp to GEC Pascal! Yes, I was aware of this as you (JT) tried to get me to debug things like the HP plotter driver which was not working! The Pascal driver would only work if the Imp driver had been used first. Since I had not been consulted prior to the translation, I decided that it was not approriate to assist with the debugging! (Too busy debugging Shapesmith by then!) best regards Gordon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-58-1012330363-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 12:46:33 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07420 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:46:33 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-58-1012330363-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jan 2002 18:52:43 -0000 X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 29 Jan 2002 18:52:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 39152 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2002 18:52:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Jan 2002 18:52:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail16.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.217) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jan 2002 18:52:41 -0000 Received: from [195.92.193.19] (helo=mail3.svr.pol.co.uk) by mail16.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16VdN2-00066b-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:52:40 +0000 Received: from modem-1076.panther.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.244.52] helo=oemcomputer) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16VdMz-0001NB-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:52:38 +0000 Message-ID: <000401c1a8f7$51b3a240$34f487d9@oemcomputer> To: References: <200201242352.RAA23138@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:00:17 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Hamish: check list... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Graham, Your recent update of the homepage for the project makes impressive reading. There really was a lot going on in those days. I am particularly pleased to see the inclusion of reference to the "circuit layout tools" pre VLSI. One of the strengths of the Edinburgh Computer Science Department was that it could "do things". There was an attitude of "roll up sleeves" and get on with it. This did not apply only to software, but depended greatly on: obtaining funds for hardware getting the hardware to work, and keeping it working keeping abreast of new hardware developments having the capability to design and implement hardware in-house. Apart from exploiting the potential of the first mini-computers, there was the early involvement with inkjet technology which has already been mentioned. There were many other examples, such as identifying the potential of the new generation of laser print engines which emerged in the early eighties. It was an important matter to many of us that the Department was designated "of Computer Science" not "of Computing Science". This complete systems capability was supported by: a resourceful team of technical staff academic staff who had a hard-headed understanding of both hardware and software (such as Sidney Michaelson and Harry Whitfield) later, two brilliant (and I do not use the word lightly) hardware designers (Fred King and Igor Hansen) not least, some very bright students. On the software side, there was early work on (pre-VLSI) CAD by David Rees. Then came the development of ESDL by Paul McLellan and Lee Smith, which in my view was one of the best things going on in Edinburgh at the time. Lee's I-code concept, and the philosophy behind it, facilitated a lot of good work within the framework he designed. It was an excellent example of modular design and interaction. On the hardware side, there was Jimmy Johnston's paper-tape comparator, and Peter Lindsay's elegant design of the Link interface, which was used extensively to inter-connect processors and devices. With reference to the check-list of my involvement, your list includes most of what I remember. Perhaps more, since I do not recall what I did with AI2LOGO. Of course, there were numerous utility programs such as dis-assemblers and emulators, library procedures, and device drivers, which I knocked out, as many of us did at that time. I retain little in the way of original sources or documents in computer-processable form, although I have a few line-printer listings of some programs. The availability of EMAS archives could be very helpful. My user number was ECSC10 and I have no problem over confidentiality or copyright of anything there. I expect to be seeing Peter Lindsay socially quite soon, and (as I am sure he would not mind me saying) he was a bit of a hoarder, so I will be asking him if he has anything interesting squirrelled away. Re compilers, the first compiler which I wrote at Edinburgh implemented a subset of IMP for the DEC PDP9. IMP was just then emerging as a major step forward from Manchester's Atlas Autocode, which had previously been the major language used and supported at Edinburgh. The first versions of the PDP9 compiler were cross-compiled, as batch jobs, on the then service machine (English Electric KDF9, or maybe IBM 360). In those days, batch jobs were all organised on a 'compile-and-run' basis. Users submitted a job as a stack of punched cards, comprising program cards folllowed by data cards. There was a convention that program cards were differently coloured from data cards, say pink for program and buff for data. I had to be present in the machine room for the early trials of the compiler to explain to the operators that after the deck of cards had been read in and compiled as program, the same deck was to be reloaded to be read again as data. 'But they're pink' they would protest, aghast at this breach of the natural order of things. (If any operators are reading this, I will explain that again, more slowly. Just kidding guys and gals, put me down.) It was a great moment when the compiler was sufficiently advanced to compile itself on the target machine (PDP9), and I still hold my breath whenever I compile a compiler through itself, and get a buzz of relief when it works. Re the origins of ECCE, in my opinion the account in Lee Smith's introduction to the ECCE manual is abbreviated to the point of being misleading. ECCE was not "based on ideas developed by" a triumvirate including myself. I designed and specified ECCE (and, lo and behold, named it), and I wrote the first implementations of it, for the DEC PDP9 and EMAS (English Electric System 4). I have readily acknowledged both that the first version of the editor built upon work which went before and that subsequent enhancements drew on contributions from many others. The majority of subsequent implementations of ECCE were carried out by people other than myself. Some were done independently while others made use of implementation notes and sample source code which I made available to enquirers from around the globe. Host systems on which ECCE was implemented ranged from the Z80 to the ICL 2980 under VME-B. I encouraged the Department to adopt an 'open-export' policy to developments such as ECCE, in the face of pressure from some quarters in the University to seek a commercial return for the export of all such developments. I devised VECCE (video version of ECCE) when I returned to the Department after a spell as a freelance consultant. It was stimulated, and enabled, by the appearance of a new generation of Visual Display Units which supported cursor-addressing and screen-editing features, as compared to the previous generation of video terminals which were simply 'glass Teletypes'. The first implementation (on EMAS, I guess) was very painful, and I became dispirited about the time it took me to get it to work. WYS and WYG just would not coincide. It emerged eventually that most of the problems were due to a tendency of early Visual 200 terminals to drop control sequences under heavy load at higher baud rates. So I wasted much time amending sound source code in an attempt to eliminate non-existent bugs. I never particularly satisfied with the ergonomics of VECCE, in terms of integrating the traditional command-mode with data-entry mode, and I have a lot of sympathy with the view of people like Gordon Brebner that VECCE was a retrograde step from the simplicity of the original ECCE (if I represent him correctly). (Thinking of which, it occurs to me that Gordon's research work surely falls partly within the period of interest.) Re syntax checking from the editor, I remember only a little about this. For me, the emphasis shifted to fast compilation with close-coupling to an editor. All my later compilers were integrated with VECCE, so that on detection of a fault during compilation, the editor was automatically invoked with the cursor positioned at the locus of the fault. (For a long time, I had the ambition of achieving the somewhat arbitrary target of compiling 1000 statements per second. I got there a number of years ago, and since then improvements in processor performance have propelled compilation speed to the point where you might as well 'compile-and-run' every time. Plus ca change, ..........) Re the ICL 7502, it came about thus. Sidney Michaelson was conducting a tour of the machine halls for visiting dignitaries. One of these was Ed Mack, then an influential director of ICL. Surveying the motley array of hardware such as Interdatas and whatever else, Mack commented that he did not see any ICL mini-computers there, to which Sid typically responded "Why don't you give us one?". So an ICL 7502 duly arrived. Despite its abysmal instruction set, it had the great merit that the video screen was driven directly from a memory-based array. Write to the memory, and it was on the screen, revolutionary at the time for character-based devices (as opposed to general graphical devices). This lent itself not only to such conventional applications as screen editing, but to many other dynamic uses, such as previously mentioned re Fred King. I wrote an emulator for some processor (can't remember which) with on-screen display of internal registers, which in free-running mode gave a vivid insight into the reality of program execution. Ed Mack came back some months later for a demonstration of what we had achieved. He was tickled pink by the fact that the system came up ready for use almost as soon as it was switched on (always an obsession of mine). He told me that he had insisted that the video hardware should be designed on an 'instant on' basis, and was frustrated that the ICL system software negated this by taking an age to initialise. (Ring any bells about current systems?) Re conventional CAD tools ('conventional' meaning pre-VLSI), most of this work was done by others but I will mention my own involvement. On returning to the Department, I brought in a program MINIMO which I had developed during my time as a freelance, which minimised logic circuits defined by boolean equations. There was also work on automatic PCB routing which interfaced to the ESDL suite of hardware design programs. The approach followed in the Department was based on a published abstract algorithm for topological routing. The basic concept was brilliant and simple, but it was a devil to translate into a usable program. The first attempt was a student project (by Douglas Buchanan?) which was one of a number of very ambitious student projects undertaken at this time. This did yield a working program, but even on simple circuits, overnight runs were required to complete the routing task. Paul McLellan carried this work further, and I also became involved, but the processing time of the router remained excessive and (as I discovered subsequently) there were significant logical flaws in the implemented algorithms. Later, in Clan Systems, I focussed on this area more intensively and managed to crack most of the problems (at least when skilfully driven by Igor Hansen). The resulting routing program was used for all of Clan's prototype boards, and for most of the production systems as well. Re COMPARE, this was a somewhat simple and restricted program. I used to set the task of writing such a program as an exercise for Computer Science 2. I don't think I was aware of Unix 'diff' at the time. I later wrote a program COMBINE with rather more extensive and sophisticated matching, to produce a composite file from two input files, marking the differences between the two, but also including the common parts. One of the applications of this was to generate a single source file, using conditional compilation, from two divergent versions of the same program. (Sorry if that is rather opaque. Before I had access to adequate conditional compilation, it was necessary to maintain separate source files for different versions, with all the attendant problems of keeping them consistent. COMBINE saved a lot of donkey work in unifying them.) Finally, as a curiosity, I also wrote a self-reproducing program in a transitional version of IMP. For these purposes, a self-reproducing program is defined as a program with no input which produces the text of itself as output. This program stimulated Paul Bratley to devise such programs in a number of other programming languages, and he published a short paper on the subject. I leave the technique as an exercise for the reader. An approach along the following lines does NOT work: Twas a dark and stormy night, and the Captain said to the First Mate 'Tell us a story' So the First Mate began: Twas a dark and stormy night, and the Captain said to the First Mate 'Tell us a story' ................................ .......................... Enough already, Hamish. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-59-1012355326-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 19:42:43 2002 Received: from n34.groups.yahoo.com (n34.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.84]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA24278 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:42:43 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-59-1012355326-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n34.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2002 01:48:46 -0000 X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 30 Jan 2002 01:48:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 58197 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2002 01:48:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Jan 2002 01:48:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jan 2002 01:48:45 -0000 Received: from modem-3320.orangutan.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.236.248] helo=oemcomputer) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16Vjrf-0005jx-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:48:44 +0000 Message-ID: <000801c1a931$72b2d9e0$f8ec87d9@oemcomputer> To: References: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:56:44 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Mike, > We don't want you to expose yourself - we do enough of that at ceilidhs, > Hamish. Speak for yourself. > Did you not write VECCE? Yes, see my response to Graham's check-list enquiry. > And maybe you'll be brave > enough to join in another Cumberland one d... :-) This is totally off-topic, but I won't let you get away with the suggestion that I am running scared of the Cumberland Square Eight, despite our slight mishap many moons ago. There is a picture on Laure Delpech's photo site (password: briansbirthday) of a recent Ceilidh where this was danced, with me in the set in the foreground. In the picture I am masked by a splendidly airborne Laure, but you can see my kilt on the left of the group. See you soon, Hamish. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-60-1012381803-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jan 30 03:03:51 2002 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA04656 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:03:50 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-60-1012381803-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n10.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2002 09:10:03 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 30 Jan 2002 09:10:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 1416 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2002 09:10:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Jan 2002 09:10:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jan 2002 09:10:02 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id DAA04623; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:03:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201300903.DAA04623@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:03:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Tommy Thomas checks in... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I'm afraid yahoo was acting up again so I'm forwarding his message manually: Hi, Well done Graham another champion for learning from the past I observe. Colossus and the Manchester Baby have been rebuilt and maybe the lessons of EMAS, etc can be revisited too. I will follow your campaign with interest but is there no better vehicle than Yahoo, all these bare navels make me shiver in this climate I don't know what Sid would have said. I will try and make a more useful contribution when I get a better measure of the extent and interests of the group Regards Tommy Thomas I replied with a short note agreeing that much of the work from EMAS is (unfortunately - we should be 20 years further advanced by now) just as relevant today as when it was new. Having the code for EMAS available to the public even at this late day may still have some impact on operating system design and performance. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-61-1012537374-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 31 22:16:39 2002 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA27919 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:16:39 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-61-1012537374-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 04:22:54 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 04:22:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 41348 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 04:22:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 04:22:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 04:22:53 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA27906 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:16:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202010416.WAA27906@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:16:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Full text scans online for two papers! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I stumbled across these completely by accident today. Wonder if there are more out there... The Computer Journal, Volume 18, Issue 2, pp. 122-130: Abstract. The EMAS Director DJ Rees http://www3.oup.co.uk/computer_journal/hdb/Volume_18/Issue_02/180122.sgm.abs.html The Computer Journal, Volume 18, Issue 2, pp. 131-134: Abstract. The EMAS archiving program AS Wight http://www3.oup.co.uk/computer_journal/hdb/Volume_18/Issue_02/180131.sgm.abs.html G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-62-1012559086-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 04:20:56 2002 Received: from n21.groups.yahoo.com (n21.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.71]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA04488 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:18:26 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-62-1012559086-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n21.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 10:12:10 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 10:24:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 34761 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 10:24:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 10:24:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.229.35) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 10:24:45 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g11AOSK21003 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:24:28 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.186] (black57.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.186]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25597 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:24:27 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200202010416.WAA27906@admin.vt.com> References: <200202010416.WAA27906@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:23:29 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Full text scans online for two papers! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >I stumbled across these completely by accident today. Wonder if there >are more out there... All of the Computer Journal papers appear to be there. It's a pity that they are in TIFF format. The files are very big. EMAS - The Edinburgh Multi-Access System, by H.Whitfield and A.S.Wight, The Computer Journal, vol.16, no.4, 1973, pp 331-346. http://www3.oup.co.uk/computer_journal/hdb/Volume_16/Issue_04/160331.sgm.abs.html The EMAS Director, by D.J.Rees, The Computer Journal, vol.18, no.2, 1975, pp 122-130. >http://www3.oup.co.uk/computer_journal/hdb/Volume_18/Issue_02/180122.sgm.abs.html The EMAS Archiving Program, by A.S.Wight, The Computer Journal, vol.18, no.2, 1975, pp 131-134. >http://www3.oup.co.uk/computer_journal/hdb/Volume_18/Issue_02/180131.sgm.abs.html The Standard EMAS Subsystem, by G.E.Millard, D.J.Rees and H.Whitfield, The Computer Journal, vol.18, no.3, 1975, pp 213-219. http://www3.oup.co.uk/computer_journal/hdb/Volume_18/Issue_03/180213.sgm.abs.html H. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-63-1012560332-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 04:39:16 2002 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA05143 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:39:15 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-63-1012560332-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 10:45:35 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 10:45:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 74208 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 10:45:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 10:45:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 10:45:30 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g11Aj8614455 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:45:08 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.144] (black15.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.144]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06801 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:45:07 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (Unverified) Message-Id: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:45:02 +0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Sidney Michaelson Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO There is a page about Sidney Michaelson at http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~bcsed/michaelson.html H. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-64-1012564222-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 05:44:02 2002 Received: from n28.groups.yahoo.com (n28.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.78]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA07169 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:44:02 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-64-1012564222-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n28.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 11:50:22 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 11:50:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 92708 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 11:50:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 11:50:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.229.35) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 11:50:20 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g11Bo1K23473 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:50:01 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.176] (black47.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.176]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05076 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:49:59 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (Unverified) Message-Id: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:49:54 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Full text scans online for two papers! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >I stumbled across these completely by accident today. Wonder if there >are more out there... See also: The IMP Programming Language, by P.D.Stephens, The Computer Journal, vol17, no.3, 1974, pp 216-223. http://www3.oup.co.uk/computer_journal/hdb/Volume_17/Issue_03/170216.sgm.abs.html H. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-65-1012573704-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 08:22:04 2002 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA12194 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:22:03 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-65-1012573704-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 14:28:24 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 14:28:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 86530 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 14:28:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 14:28:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 14:28:23 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id IAA12061 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:21:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202011421.IAA12061@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:21:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Full text scans online for two papers! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > All of the Computer Journal papers appear to be there. It's a pity that they are in TIFF format. > The files are very big. I can probably do something about that. I have some great tools for reducing images in storage size without losing much quality. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-66-1012577932-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 09:32:32 2002 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com (n15.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.65]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14749 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:32:31 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-66-1012577932-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n15.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 15:38:14 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 15:38:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 58241 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 15:38:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 15:38:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.229.35) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 15:38:50 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g11FcfK15941 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:38:41 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.163] (black34.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.163]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29259 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:38:40 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200202011421.IAA12061@admin.vt.com> References: <200202011421.IAA12061@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:38:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Full text scans online for two papers! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > All of the Computer Journal papers appear to be there. It's a pity that they are in TIFF format. >> The files are very big. > >I can probably do something about that. I have some great tools for >reducing images in storage size without losing much quality. > >G It would be better to OCR the text, compress the figures and generate PDFs. H. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-67-1012578949-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 09:49:29 2002 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA15353 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:49:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-67-1012578949-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 15:55:49 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 15:55:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 22479 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 15:55:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 15:55:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 15:55:48 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA15341 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:48:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202011548.JAA15341@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:48:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Full text scans online for two papers! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > >I can probably do something about that. I have some great tools for > >reducing images in storage size without losing much quality. > > It would be better to OCR the text, compress the figures and generate PDFs. You're probably right. Do you know any good tools that will do that? I have some OCR software (which I was planning to use) but not one that would extract images and reconstitute a page in the way you suggest. It could be done with some manual labour and cut&paste in photoshop but as I said earlier in the project, intensive manual labour on scans is not as fruitful a way to spend time as aquiring electronic sources, which is what I'm pursuing at the moment. (In fact we have two volunteers right now working on getting some software online, and I'm rushing to re-build an FTP server by this weekend to be ready for them. More on that when they're ready to post.) Good work on finding all those other documents, thanks. I'll start cataloguing documents on the web page next. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-68-1012580967-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 10:23:07 2002 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16549 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:23:06 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-68-1012580967-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 16:29:27 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 16:29:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 71778 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 16:29:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 16:29:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 16:29:26 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA16528 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:22:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202011622.KAA16528@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:22:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] place to post links/bookmarks Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > There is a page about Sidney Michaelson at > > http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~bcsed/michaelson.html Thanks. And this is actually a good excuse to remind everyone that we have a page on yahoo where any list member can add their own links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/links It also reminds me to trawl my own bookmarks for links worth adding to the page... (some of this isn't Edinburgh stuff, I dumped a few Acorn history URLs in here too) Let's see... hope this survives the cut&paste...

Edinburgh History Project

David Marwick's Home Page
DAI Database: Electronically Available Documents
DAI Database: Papers and Publications
Technical history of Acorn (Version 0.5 Beta).
CAESAR - CPU Cores
TELETEXT - The Early Years
Vintage Computer Festival Link Library
Full Acorn Machine List
Pictures of BBC Computer Related Stuff
Computer-Archiv - Acorn
Technical history of Acorn (Version 0.5 Beta).
BBC Documentation Project - Hardware
The BBC lives! -- Introduction & History
The BBC lives! -- Pictures, photos, covers
New Scientist Archive
Museos Informaticos
Google Search: "hamish dewar"
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Groups: View Thread "NSA's OS ( really IMP )"
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Search: edinburgh imp
Google Search: edinburgh imp emas
Google Search: edinburgh imp emas
Google Search: edinburgh imp emas
Google Search: edinburgh imp emas
Google Search: ecce edinburgh
Google Search: ecce edinburgh
Google Search:
Google Search:
Google Search: "atlas autocode"
Google Search: "atlas autocode"
Google Search: "mike lesk"
DEC PDP-10 Emulation
The Computer History Simulation Project
The Virtual Museum of Computing
School of Computer Science
The Computer Journal, Volume 18, Issue 2, pp. 122-130: Abstract.
The Computer Journal, Volume 18, Issue 2, pp. 131-134: Abstract.
from Acorn to Zilog we can convert almost any disk

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-69-1012604332-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 16:52:30 2002 Received: from n5.groups.yahoo.com (n5.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.55]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA29575 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:52:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-69-1012604332-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n5.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 22:58:52 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 22:58:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 98265 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 22:58:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 22:58:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.58) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 22:58:51 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.114] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 22:58:42 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 22:56:32 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] The cheek of it! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I discovered http://implanguage.com/ today. I've written them a polite note explaining that we have precedence with the name IMP as a programming language, and pointing out that they might look rather silly when they release their language if folks discover it has been done before. I hope that's enough to change their minds! I doubt E.U. would care nowadays although back in the 70s I bet something like this would have engendered an instant response from the lawyers down at the Old College! G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-70-1012654496-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 2 06:48:33 2002 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA20609 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 06:48:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-70-1012654496-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2002 12:53:18 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 2 Feb 2002 12:54:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 21050 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2002 12:54:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2002 12:54:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2002 12:54:55 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0034.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.48.34]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g12Csqa29120 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:54:52 GMT Message-Id: <200202021254.g12Csqa29120@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c5be160a; 02 Feb 02 12:53:52 GMT To: Edinburgh Computer History Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:53:51 GMT Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Introduction Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi I've just joined this list. My name is Bob Eager, and I'm a Senior Lecturer in Computer Science at the University of Kent. I was responsible for the EMAS service at Kent for the whole time that we ran it (about 7 years). I thought I'd give some background about my involvement; not to blow my own trumpet, but to give an idea of what people might be able to ask me and where they'd be wasting their time! I became involved with EMAS (2900) in 1978, when Peter Stephens arrived to do a test installation and I was deputed to look after him for the day and evening. I never saw the System 4s, although I saw the service on a teletype (over a modem) once from our machine room. Our 2900 was running the (rare) VME/K and we needed something more reliable. EMAS 2900 raised our 13 week averaged MTBF from 20 hours to about 2000 hours. I was the only person at Kent involved with the systm aspects of EMAS. As such, I had to learn a lot about it, although telephone support was always very good (this pre-dated email). I read all the sources (my subject areas are operating systems and compiler construction) and even did some fault finding in the early days; when we rolled out the service we immediately hit a Director bug that only showed up with large numbers of registered users (larger than at ERCC). Over the years I did a lot of work on the system, some applications but various local modifications and enhancements to most parts, all the way up from the Supervisor. I ended up with a pretty good working knowledge of the core components. When we bought a second CPU (sorry, OCP) we found that the dual processor code was imperfect on our 2960 as there had been no opportunity to test it, and no documentation on how to program bits of it. I solved this by reading the processor microcode to see how the system should drive it! I also did a microcode fix for an ongoing problem. I then became involved with the bid for our 'new' machine. One option was an IBM 4381 with VM, running EMAS as a guest. This was an XA machine, and at the time, the Amdahl was the only extended addressing machine in the IBM architecture that was supported. The necessary code was produced largely at Edinburgh, but I ended up writing and fixing some bits of the disk subsystem and a new operator console driver too, so that we could test it under VM. I made thrice-weekly visits to Greenford in West London to test these, and got it working after programming round some nasty shortcomings in the VM loader, which expected boot programs to be small, and not the size of CHOPSUPE. I have some early development documentation; I am convinced that most of it never had electronic sources; we are talking real typewriters here! I also have some user documentation, and some of the small papers on EMAS, ERTE etc. I have EMAS-2 and EMAS-3 files here, not probably a complete set. I also have PDP-11 FEP sources; I did some work on them and spent enough time to understand the inner workings of the FEP. We never had the node processors as our FEP(s) connected to a Cambridge Ring. I have a complete IMP80 parser written in C. The code generation is suspended for lack of time (for Intel architecture). Curiously, I also have ECCE (well, a version) in BCPL for what it's worth. I did a BCPL compiler for EMAS too. Hope this helps and sparks some discussion! Bob To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-71-1012766669-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 13:58:00 2002 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA11945 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:58:00 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-71-1012766669-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Feb 2002 19:48:23 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 3 Feb 2002 20:04:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 39953 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2002 20:04:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2002 20:04:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Feb 2002 20:04:27 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA11933 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:57:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202031957.NAA11933@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:57:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] First success! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thanks to John Butler, we now have our first complete Edinburgh-written operating system available to the Archive: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/jhb/fred/ is the source of the APM operating system! Thank you John. This is the most recently written OS in Edinburgh, so was the easiest to resurrect. It was online for the benefit of a CS4 project where they are writing an emulator for it. (coming along well, I hear) Let's keep at it, guys! Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-72-1012792715-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 21:12:09 2002 Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA25225 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:12:09 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-72-1012792715-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n35.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Feb 2002 03:18:35 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 4 Feb 2002 03:18:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 94676 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 03:18:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Feb 2002 03:18:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 03:18:33 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA25214; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:11:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202040311.VAA25214@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:11:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] FTP area is back online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ftp to ftp.gtoal.com is working again. I've put up a linux running on top of MSDOS (blecchh). It has about 600Mb free, but there's also another area of 40G that I have access to, so if extra large files are uploaded, I'll just manually move them to the other area. No password required, username is 'ftp'. Put the files in /incoming You will *not* be able to download files from /incoming. Although it's possible to create subdirectories there, you can place files in subdirectories nor chmod their permissions, so all uploads must be in the flat /incoming directory. So... if you have a hierarchy to upload, please .zip or .tar.gz your files into one big package first. Regards Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-73-1012981161-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 01:32:43 2002 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com (n9.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.59]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA04719 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 01:32:43 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-73-1012981161-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n9.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Feb 2002 07:39:21 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 6 Feb 2002 07:39:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 44385 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 07:39:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Feb 2002 07:39:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 07:39:20 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA04709 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 01:32:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202060732.BAA04709@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 01:32:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] [OT] Ecce + Jove Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO After something like 10 years of being annoyed about having to exit jove to do some trivial ecce edit and then go back in to jove to do more convenient screen editing, I finally realised this evening that I could do something about it. So I made a quick hack to jove to add a new command to it, "ecce" (entered on the command line which you get by typing x ). When you enter the ecce command, it saves its current buffer to its file, invokes ecce on the file, and when it returns, reloads the buffer from the file. Works really nicely; I'm kicking myself for not having done this 10 years ago :-) I'd prefer Ecce integrated into jove but I'll settle for Ecce shoehorned into jove :-) Next trick will be: pass to ecce the line and column number from the jove edit, and likewise on the way back. Final trick will be: have a version of ecce that takes an ecce command string as a parameter, which it executes and then exists. That way we can type an ecce command straight into jove and not even be aware of invoking an external program. It should handle everything except 'p', only updating the display once the whole command line has been executed. If anyone else uses jove and wants the patch (it was trivial, 15 minutes work) let me know. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-74-1013055492-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 22:11:35 2002 Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.54]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA15078 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:11:35 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-74-1013055492-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n4.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2002 04:18:12 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 7 Feb 2002 04:18:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 15611 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 04:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2002 04:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 04:18:11 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA15056 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:10:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202070410.WAA15056@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:10:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thanks to JGH, we have GDMR's Vax utilities "nlines" and "clean" at this URL: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/vax-vms/gdmr/ These will be followed soon by Ecce for VMS. Although not quite as 'historical' as some of the older programs we're looking for, I thought we might as well 1) post anything we can find in Imp - old or new - to give the language more exposure; until we started this site there was NOT ONE SINGLE Imp program to be found on the web; and 2) These (and Ecce which JGH will be sending me tomorrow) are actually still *useful* to Edinburgh grads who've dispersed around the world. Unlike most of the systems we've written for over the years, Vax/VMS has the virtue of still being in use! As usual, I've html'd the sources, for example: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/vax-vms/gdmr/clean.imp.html I'll add this stuff into the web page along with a general tidy-up at the weekend. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-75-1013073501-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 03:11:43 2002 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA21750 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 03:11:42 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-75-1013073501-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n2.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2002 09:18:21 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 7 Feb 2002 09:18:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 41404 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 09:18:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2002 09:18:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 09:18:20 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.at1.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.202.242]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id JAA03290 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:18:19 GMT Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g179II806320 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:18:19 GMT Message-Id: <200202070918.g179II806320@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20011219 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:10:58 CST." <200202070410.WAA15056@admin.vt.com> From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:18:18 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Thanks to JGH, we have GDMR's Vax utilities "nlines" and "clean" > at this URL: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/vax-vms/gdmr/ Yikes! We have a selection of filestore backups on-line at the moment (for a CS4 project!). I'll try and find time to extract my (Fred-machine) filestore rewrite. The previous Interdata version is probably there too somewhere... -- Dr George D M Ross, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-76-1013075329-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 03:42:11 2002 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA22631 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 03:42:10 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-76-1013075329-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2002 09:48:49 -0000 X-Sender: paulmcl@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 7 Feb 2002 09:48:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 1552 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 09:48:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2002 09:48:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp015.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.173.59) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 09:48:48 -0000 Received: from snjpca1-ar2-4-63-193-082.snjpca1.vz.dsl.gtei.net (HELO paul) (4.63.193.82) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 09:48:47 -0000 To: Message-ID: <000401c1afbc$76178590$52c13f04@paul> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <200202070918.g179II806320@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> From: "Paul McLellan" X-Yahoo-Profile: paulmcl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:47:25 -0800 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I bet you can't find my original version before Hamish rewrote it! -- Paul -----Original Message----- From: George Ross [mailto:gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 1:18 AM To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce > Thanks to JGH, we have GDMR's Vax utilities "nlines" and "clean" > at this URL: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/vax-vms/gdmr/ Yikes! We have a selection of filestore backups on-line at the moment (for a CS4 project!). I'll try and find time to extract my (Fred-machine) filestore rewrite. The previous Interdata version is probably there too somewhere... -- Dr George D M Ross, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-77-1013111702-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 13:48:21 2002 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13464 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:48:21 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-77-1013111702-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2002 19:55:02 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 7 Feb 2002 19:55:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 29559 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 19:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2002 19:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 19:54:59 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:47:57 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.189]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:47:57 +0000 Message-ID: <001b01c1b010$a6f194e0$bd461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <000401c1afbc$76178590$52c13f04@paul> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:50:10 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Thanks to JGH, we have GDMR's Vax utilities "nlines" and "clean" > at this URL: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/vax-vms/gdmr/ Interesting that I had always assumed that NLINES was a Nick Rothwell utility - but I see from the source that it was a GDMR/NJR production. Included are .EXE files which should run on any VMS 5.5+ system. I have not linked these /NOSYSSHARE but if anyone finds that they want to try them and they do not run, then I will make a NOSYSSHARE version. I am not convinced about the idea of organizing the archive "by people", does that mean that Ian Young's EDWIN device drivers will be in one tree, and my bits of EDWIN will be in another? I would have gone for the directory tree split by pogram name, then any versions and another type of index page which had links from people to programs. A note about my copy of the VECCE sources which will shortly appear. There seem to be much fewer source files than the KR version which is already on-line. Appart from 1 procedure changed at Lattice Logic (with the original one still present and commented out) these are the closest that we have to Hamish's original as it existed in the mid-1980s unless someone else can do better. > I bet you can't find my original version before Hamish rewrote it! -- > Paul I don't have it, but I think that we will find your finger prints on the "readin.mar" file which is part of my VECCE sources.... (VAX Macro Assembler source for those who are not familiar with .mar) best regards Gordon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-78-1013118695-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 15:44:51 2002 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18014 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:44:51 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-78-1013118695-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2002 21:51:35 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 7 Feb 2002 21:51:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 61295 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 21:51:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2002 21:51:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 21:51:33 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA17999 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:44:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202072144.PAA17999@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:44:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I am not convinced about the idea of organizing the archive "by people", > does that mean that Ian Young's EDWIN device drivers will be in one > tree, and my bits of EDWIN will be in another? I would have gone for > the directory tree split by pogram name, then any versions and another > type of index page which had links from people to programs. Don't confused 'storage' with 'organisation'. This is only temporary filespace until I get organised, and I was waiting until we had more things to display, at which point (I hope) a method of organisation will become self-evident. I'll probably organise it under a hierarchy of system (ordered by age) then program. However in the web pages, each person will also have links to all the software they've worked on - the beauty of hypertext being that it doesn't hurt to over-index. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-79-1013153933-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 01:32:11 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA07152 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 01:32:10 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-79-1013153933-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2002 07:38:53 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 8 Feb 2002 07:38:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 1498 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 07:38:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Feb 2002 07:38:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.62) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 07:38:52 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.159] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2002 07:38:52 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200202070918.g179II806320@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:38:48 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., George Ross wrote: > We have a selection of filestore backups on-line at the moment (for a CS4 > project!). Any chance of an "ls -lR" of this so we can look for any other goodies? Is HAL likely to still be around on this filestore or is it too recent? G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-80-1013226871-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 21:47:48 2002 Received: from n14.groups.yahoo.com (n14.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.64]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA13111 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:47:47 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-80-1013226871-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 03:56:23 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 03:54:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 70078 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 03:54:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 03:54:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 03:54:30 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA13097; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:47:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202090347.VAA13097@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:47:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] question about filestores Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Paul, my memory is going a little... remind me... the original filestore - was it a standalone machine that ran the 'filestore program' which was a sort of combination FTP server and multi-threaded scheduler - or was it an FTP server-like program running on top of one of the departmental OSes? I have a sort of vague recollection that ISYS was involved, but I've pretty much forgotten anything about ISYS. Wasn't that the Interdata operating system (hence the I in ISYS)? Just about the only thing I remember of ISYS was hamish deciding that ^S and ^Q wasn't applicable on 9600 baud terminals because they were too fast and that some sort of paged mode should be used instead. Something about that mod by Hamish makes me think that Hamish id a rewrite of some earlier system. Or is this LEGOS I'm thinking about? It's all such a long time ago I've forgotten. Perhaps we should find a copy of Noddy Goes to the Machine Halls to refresh my memory of all this stuff! But truthfully I really don't remember using ISYS much at all - my only memories of the Interdata were keying in a boot sequence, plus loading our CS4 operating system projects on it as stand-alone OSes. That and the fun we had setting up the restart so it would continue running our programs which were remembered in core memory so that switching the machine off didn't clear them out! Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-81-1013227353-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 21:55:45 2002 Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.77]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA13357 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:55:44 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-81-1013227353-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n27.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 04:02:33 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 04:02:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 20086 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 04:02:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 04:02:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 04:02:32 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA13325 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:55:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202090355.VAA13325@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:55:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Departmental reports? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Is it still possible to get paper copies of departmental reports from the departmental secretary? I know that's how I got all the emas papers about 10 years ago when I sent a copy of them all over to the Mach Kernel team As well as a source of material for the project, I'd rather like to read some of them again myself, especially "An experiment in doing it again..." which I always thought was a definitive paper on the subject of rewrites. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-82-1013228614-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 22:16:49 2002 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA14019 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:16:48 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-82-1013228614-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 04:21:50 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 04:23:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 44977 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 04:23:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 04:23:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 04:23:33 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA13992 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:16:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202090416.WAA13992@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:16:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Departmental reports? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > As well as a source of material for the project, I'd rather like > to read some of them again myself, especially "An experiment > in doing it again..." which I always thought was a definitive > paper on the subject of rewrites. while searching for this, I found: http://www.caldo.demon.co.uk/doc/taste.pdf This is an interesting paper where the author rewrites whole chunks of SunOS to make it more 'mean & lean'. One of the improvements he makes is to use the EMAS scheduler! Something I have always said would be good for Unix but didn't think anyone would do (or had done). Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-83-1013230624-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 22:50:16 2002 Received: from n18.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.68]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA14883 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:50:16 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-83-1013230624-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n18.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 04:57:19 -0000 X-Sender: paulmcl@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 04:57:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 43126 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 04:57:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 04:57:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp015.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.173.59) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 04:57:03 -0000 Received: from snjpca1-ar2-4-63-193-082.snjpca1.vz.dsl.gtei.net (HELO paul) (4.63.193.82) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 04:57:01 -0000 To: Message-ID: <003801c1b126$0a5b3e30$52c13f04@paul> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <200202090347.VAA13097@admin.vt.com> From: "Paul McLellan" X-Yahoo-Profile: paulmcl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:55:48 -0800 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] question about filestores Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO The original filestore had nothing to do with ISYS (other than running on the same type of hardware). ISYS was indeed an Interdata operating system (written by Hamish). It supported several (6 I think) terminals which could edit and manipulate files simutaneously, and a background memory area that actually was about 2/3 of the memory, that could be used for other programs, primarily HAL assembly and later, Peter Robinson's IMP compiler. Users could not run their own programs on ISYS (no protection), they downloaded them over a serial departmental link to their own pesonal Interdata and ran them there. Legos was essentially a re-write of ISYS as a single-user (but still multiprocess) operating system with no discs or filesystem of its own, it used the original filestore for that. Unlike on ISYS you could run your own programs on Legos (if you crashed the machine you only inconvenienced yourself). If they were small enough they could be run in a disc (actually filestore) buffer so everything did not pile up behind the semaphore for the background partition, as would happen on ISYS coming up to any sort of course deadline. The original file server had a multi-threaded scheduler (written by a woman called Vicki Pachera) and the file-system itself (which I wrote). It didn't really operate like FTP since there was no virtual-circuit level to the network protocol and you would want to have lots of files open at once (although it did have a regurgitate a whole file command that was used by bootstraps to suck down the operating system). Instead it had commands like open a file and give me a channel number, read a block from this channel, close this channel. Like so much of what was done in those days, the system was fairly basic but the challenge was getting everything to run in a max of 64K bytes of memory while reserving lots of space for disc buffers. The scheduler was actually horrible. It had been built on the notion that switching processes and saving state would degrade the I/O performance too much, so most of the state had to be saved in transaction records explicitly. The PC was not saved automatically for a transaction. This holds an unbelievable amount of state information as everyone discovers the first time they write a program in any sort of windows (small w) environment and have to return control after ever character typed, menu shown etc. Nor were any registers saved so every time you lost control (to peform I/O of any type or to claim a semaphore) you had to do all this housekeeping manually. It was very non-deterministic when you got it wrong since, except under heavy load, your register would still have its old value after the I/O or after you got the semaphore, even if you forgot to save it. Until one day it wouldn't. When Hamish re-wrote the filestore, he based it on the ISYS/LEGOS kernel as well as cleaning up lots of other things. I see from some Fred machine documentation I looked at, that the basic functionality of the file system itself survived through several re-writes. The basic notion that saving state was expensive was correct - you couldn't have a process for each open file just waiting for the next read command - but it seemed to me that the approach taken was Curiously, having ended up in EDA for integrated circuits all my adult life, the problem remains fitting everything into memory. Eight gigabytes of real memory just isn't enough for a chip with 50 million gates and people are starting to think about designing logic chips with a billion transistors. As an aside, ISYS (and LEGOS) had the most extraordinary bit of Hamish code as part of its bootstrap. The bootstrap would load the code from disc (ISYS) or the filestore (LEGOS) into an area of memory and then jump to the first location of the loaded code. This loaded code had no idea of the exact address at which it had been loaded, and the only way to find out was to call a subroutine that would leave the return address of the next instruction in a register. Having done that it finally had an offset in a register it could use to address its own code. Then it would copy the entire tiny code sequence down to location 0 in a pair of load multiple registers, store multiple registers instructions, then jump to this new cloned copy of itself. For this to work, the entire program had to fit into 16 instructions. It would then copy the entire operating system down into low memory and enter the operating system scheduler proper, which would find (magically) several process ready to run to initialize everything else. Starting at address 32 just after this bit of program were hardwired address like the PSW to load on an illegal instruction, interrupt, SVC etc. So the operating system had values it wanted pre-loaded there, not some random code from part of the bootstrap, so it was doubly imperative that the copying code fitted into 32 bytes. -- paul -----Original Message----- From: Graham Toal [mailto:gtoal@vt.com] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 7:47 PM To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] question about filestores Paul, my memory is going a little... remind me... the original filestore - was it a standalone machine that ran the 'filestore program' which was a sort of combination FTP server and multi-threaded scheduler - or was it an FTP server-like program running on top of one of the departmental OSes? I have a sort of vague recollection that ISYS was involved, but I've pretty much forgotten anything about ISYS. Wasn't that the Interdata operating system (hence the I in ISYS)? Just about the only thing I remember of ISYS was hamish deciding that ^S and ^Q wasn't applicable on 9600 baud terminals because they were too fast and that some sort of paged mode should be used instead. Something about that mod by Hamish makes me think that Hamish id a rewrite of some earlier system. Or is this LEGOS I'm thinking about? It's all such a long time ago I've forgotten. Perhaps we should find a copy of Noddy Goes to the Machine Halls to refresh my memory of all this stuff! But truthfully I really don't remember using ISYS much at all - my only memories of the Interdata were keying in a boot sequence, plus loading our CS4 operating system projects on it as stand-alone OSes. That and the fun we had setting up the restart so it would continue running our programs which were remembered in core memory so that switching the machine off didn't clear them out! Graham Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-84-1013244917-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 02:48:29 2002 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA17961 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 02:48:28 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-84-1013244917-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 08:53:33 -0000 X-Sender: keith.refson@ntlworld.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 08:55:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 26067 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 08:55:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 08:55:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta03-svc.ntlworld.com) (62.253.162.43) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 08:55:16 -0000 Received: from orac.15green.net ([213.105.162.77]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020209085514.YMUP26285.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@orac.15green.net> for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:55:14 +0000 Received: by orac.15green.net (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9279D2FE0F; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:06:59 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <15460.59059.367712.636317@orac.15green.net> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001b01c1b010$a6f194e0$bd461f3e@jgh2> References: <000401c1afbc$76178590$52c13f04@paul> <001b01c1b010$a6f194e0$bd461f3e@jgh2> X-Mailer: VM 7.00-rfhacked under 21.4 (patch 4) "Artificial Intelligence" XEmacs Lucid From: Keith Refson X-Yahoo-Profile: krefson MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:06:59 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO J Gordon Hughes writes: > A note about my copy of the VECCE sources which will shortly appear. > There seem to be much fewer source files than the KR version which > is already on-line. Appart from 1 procedure changed at Lattice Logic > (with the original one still present and commented out) these are > the closest that we have to Hamish's original as it existed in the > mid-1980s unless someone else can do better. You are almost certainly right that your sources are closer to the original. I added a number of features I wanted and fixed a signigicant number of bugs. Looking over what I deposited there are actually three different versions there. I suspect one may be more pristine, but I can't remember after this time which version did what. Keith Refson -- Dr Keith Refson, Building R3 Rutherford Appleton Laboratory Chilton Didcot Oxfordshire OX11 0QX T: 01235 446652 K.Refson@ F: 01235 445720 @rl.ac.uk ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-85-1013250582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 04:22:57 2002 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.65]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA20867 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 04:22:56 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-85-1013250582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n15.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 10:29:01 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 10:29:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 90663 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 10:29:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 10:29:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 10:29:41 -0000 Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:29:41 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.28]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:29:38 +0000 Message-ID: <001301c1b154$e9871d80$1c461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <000401c1afbc$76178590$52c13f04@paul><001b01c1b010$a6f194e0$bd461f3e@jgh2> <15460.59059.367712.636317@orac.15green.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:31:19 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's vax utilities; Vax Ecce Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Keith, > > A note about my copy of the VECCE sources which will shortly appear. > > There seem to be much fewer source files than the KR version which > > is already on-line. Appart from 1 procedure changed at Lattice Logic > > (with the original one still present and commented out) these are > > the closest that we have to Hamish's original as it existed in the > > mid-1980s unless someone else can do better. > > You are almost certainly right that your sources are closer to the > original. I added a number of features I wanted and fixed a > signigicant number of bugs. Looking over what I deposited there are > actually three different versions there. I suspect one may be more > pristine, but I can't remember after this time which version did what. Interesting, I had recently been thinking that VECCE is a command which I have used for the last 17 years or more, on almost every working day and I have found it so reliable! (Is Bill Laing on this group yet? - Compare and contrast with Microsoft product reliability!) This is all the more surprising as systems people, particularly compiler writers will tell you that I had a magnetic attraction for bugs and could "boldly find bugs where no bug had been found before". There are certainly a few astetic things which I don't like, but they have not annoyed me enough to want to devote time to change them. It may be that Lattice Logic had a later copy, with most of the early bugs fixed. I certainly remember the initial version as being rather fragile. best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-86-1013251112-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 04:31:42 2002 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.65]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA21113 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 04:31:42 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-86-1013251112-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n15.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 10:37:51 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 10:38:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 89089 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 10:38:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 10:38:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 10:38:31 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:38:31 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.28]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:38:31 +0000 Message-ID: <001a01c1b156$26d23a20$1c461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <200202090416.WAA13992@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:40:11 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] EMAS and Solaris Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > while searching for this, I found: > http://www.caldo.demon.co.uk/doc/taste.pdf > > This is an interesting paper where the author rewrites whole chunks > of SunOS to make it more 'mean & lean'. One of the improvements he > makes is to use the EMAS scheduler! Something I have always said > would be good for Unix but didn't think anyone would do (or had done). In the late-1980s I was at a seminar on Unix System V release 4.0 which is the basis of Solaris. One of the presentations was on the new concept that they had introduced of being able to map a file directly from disk into virtual memory, without the need to allocate page file space for it. At the coffee break, I told the speaker that I had been interested in what he had said about file mapping, as I had used a system which that was the main method of file access when I was at University. His reply was "Oh, so you used EMAS then."! (He himself had not, but was aware of the role which the EMAS concepts had played in their recent developments.) best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-87-1013251392-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 04:36:23 2002 Received: from n26.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.76]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA21234 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 04:36:22 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-87-1013251392-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n26.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 10:29:16 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 10:43:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 3971 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 10:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 10:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 10:43:11 -0000 Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:42:34 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.28]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:42:34 +0000 Message-ID: <002101c1b156$b7b857e0$1c461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <200202090355.VAA13325@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:44:14 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Departmental reports? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Is it still possible to get paper copies of departmental reports > from the departmental secretary? I know that's how I got all > the emas papers about 10 years ago when I sent a copy of them > all over to the Mach Kernel team > > As well as a source of material for the project, I'd rather like > to read some of them again myself, especially "An experiment > in doing it again..." which I always thought was a definitive > paper on the subject of rewrites. I still have a collection of all the Departmental and ERCC reports which interested me at the time when I was at the University, which dates from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s. I am happy to donate them to the project, but don't want to be the one who scans them all! best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-88-1013251634-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 04:40:24 2002 Received: from n26.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.76]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA21383 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 04:40:23 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-88-1013251634-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n26.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 10:33:18 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 10:47:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 26424 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 10:47:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 10:47:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 10:47:13 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-76-232-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.76.232] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16ZV24-0006HO-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Feb 2002 05:47:00 -0500 Message-ID: <006d01c1b157$216df550$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <200202090416.WAA13992@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:45:24 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Departmental reports? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Graham >> while searching for this, I found: http://www.caldo.demon.co.uk/doc/taste.pdf This is an interesting paper where the author rewrites whole chunks of SunOS to make it more 'mean & lean'. One of the improvements he makes is to use the EMAS scheduler! Something I have always said would be good for Unix but didn't think anyone would do (or had done). << Fascinating! Now would anyone like to do this for Linux? That, IMO, would make a much bigger impact. Mike. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-89-1013252121-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 04:48:35 2002 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA21579 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 04:48:34 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-89-1013252121-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 10:55:21 -0000 X-Sender: mail@tommythomas.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 10:55:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 60437 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 10:55:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 10:55:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO opal.blackfoothosting.net) (216.171.71.56) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 10:55:20 -0000 Received: from host213-122-162-145.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.162.145] helo=localhost) by opal.blackfoothosting.net with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16ZVA7-0002jZ-00; Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:55:19 +0000 Cc: "Dr.G.E.(Tommy) Thomas" To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002101c1b156$b7b857e0$1c461f3e@jgh2> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - opal.blackfoothosting.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tommythomas.org.uk From: "Dr.G.E.(Tommy) Thomas" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:57:12 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Departmental reports? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO On Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 10:44 AM, J Gordon Hughes wrote: > I still have a collection of all the Departmental and ERCC reports > which interested me at the time when I was at the University, > which dates from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s. > > I am happy to donate them to the project, but don't want to be > the one who scans them all! Likewise for my collection of ERCC annual reports from July 1967 to July 1984. I also have a copy of Arthur Wilson's 'History of the ERCC' written by Arthur in May 1986. Let me know what you need. Regards Tommy Thomas To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-90-1013268504-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 09:21:34 2002 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.80]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA29495 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:21:34 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-90-1013268504-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 15:28:25 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 15:28:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 52061 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 15:28:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 15:28:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.31.66.5) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 15:28:23 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:28:22 -0000 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED059F2C@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" Cc: "'Graham Toal'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:28:17 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Departmental reports? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > As well as a source of material for the project, I'd rather like > to read some of them again myself, especially "An experiment > in doing it again..." which I always thought was a definitive > paper on the subject of rewrites. Turns out I have a copy of that one in particular (CSR-18-77, December 1977) in my store if you need it. I haven't catalogued the rest of the box yet. -- Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-92-1013269496-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 09:39:07 2002 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA00127 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:39:06 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-92-1013269496-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 15:45:56 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 15:44:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 98674 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 15:44:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 15:44:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 15:44:55 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0475.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.49.219]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g19Fire02297 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:44:53 GMT Message-Id: <200202091544.g19Fire02297@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c6543c9a; 09 Feb 02 15:44:09 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:44:08 GMT Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Departmental reports? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from "J Gordon Hughes" Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:44:14 -0000 > I still have a collection of all the Departmental and ERCC reports > which interested me at the time when I was at the University, > which dates from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s. I have a few, but I think I'll concentrate on some of the early 'typed' EMAS working papers.. Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-91-1013269495-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 09:39:59 2002 Received: from n21.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.71]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA00156 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:39:58 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-91-1013269495-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n21.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2002 15:33:09 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 9 Feb 2002 15:44:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 19350 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 15:44:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2002 15:44:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 15:44:54 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0475.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.49.219]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g19Fiqe02294 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:44:52 GMT Message-Id: <200202091544.g19Fiqe02294@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c65421ca; 09 Feb 02 15:37:00 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:36:59 GMT Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Departmental reports? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:16:13 -0600 (CST) > while searching for this, I found: > > http://www.caldo.demon.co.uk/doc/taste.pdf > > This is an interesting paper where the author rewrites whole chunks > of SunOS to make it more 'mean & lean'. One of the improvements he > makes is to use the EMAS scheduler! Something I have always said > would be good for Unix but didn't think anyone would do (or had done). How very interesting. Kent has always been a rabid UNIX site (even now among some diehards) and I said this several times. Never saw that paper though and none of the UNIX group ever mentioned it to me.... Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-93-1013399726-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 10 21:48:37 2002 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA27285 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:48:36 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-93-1013399726-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2002 03:55:26 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 11 Feb 2002 03:55:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 88672 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 03:55:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Feb 2002 03:55:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 03:55:24 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA27266; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:47:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202110347.VAA27266@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@admin.vt.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:47:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] An Experiment ... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thanks to Ian Young who ftp'd me 90Mb of scans (ouch!) we have a fairly good OCR of An Experiment in Doing it Again... - in fact I've convertd it to a web page. Needs better formatting than I know how, but it's readable and 99% of the remaining text errors come from the atrociously-spelled original! But spelling aside, it's a damn good paper and worth a read if you haven't seen it since the 70's. URL is http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/docs/Experiment/again.html Of the four authors, Nick Shelness is the only one we haven't spoken to yet, so I've tracked down his current address and will be mailing him today. We have another of my classmates joined up - I'll let him say hello in his own time; he's lurking for a couple of days until he's caught up on the mailing list archives. A clue: he probably has done the best with himself in this business out of all the people in my graduating class. Rainer Thonnes has also popped his head over the fence, and he's volunteered to do a little project which I'll let him tell you about when he posts here. Both of the above have reminded me of lots of history in their emails, which I hope they're repeat to the group, otherwise I'll have to do my job as editor and replay their notes in a summary posting to the group. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-94-1013419358-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 11 03:15:45 2002 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA03146 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 03:15:44 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-94-1013419358-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2002 09:22:38 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 11 Feb 2002 09:22:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 68977 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 09:22:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Feb 2002 09:22:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 09:22:37 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.at1.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.202.242]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id JAA14973 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:22:35 GMT Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1B9MZY07560 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:22:35 GMT Message-Id: <200202110922.g1B9MZY07560@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20011219 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:55:48 PST." <003801c1b126$0a5b3e30$52c13f04@paul> From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:22:34 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] question about filestores Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > When Hamish re-wrote the filestore, he based it on the ISYS/LEGOS kernel > as well as cleaning up lots of other things. I see from some Fred > machine documentation I looked at, that the basic functionality of the > file system itself survived through several re-writes... It did indeed, right up to when we turned off the Fred-machines. By around 1983 someone (Rainer?) had connected up one of the original brown-box style ether stations to the Interdata filestore. It didn't work very well, though, as the station didn't have enough memory in it and packets kept getting dropped. The first thing I did when I joined the Department as staff was to write a version to run on the Fred-machines. (Because the Interdata-Fred connection was so unreliable I actually ran the protocol interpreter code first on the VAX, as its brown-box was so little used that I could do a reasonable amount of Fred work each time before things hung, and only after that was working was a filesystem written and the whole thing ported back to a Fred-machine.) The first of the Fred filestores had a 160Mb SMD disc (zapped controller and driver by Rainer), with a couple more 300Mb filestores being added later. The Interdata filestore ended its days as a printer spooler, though even that ultimately migrated to the Fred version once the link-based printer was replaced by an RS232 one. My version did its own multi-processing non-preemptive scheduling (even on the VAX!). IIRC there was a process to unpack inbound requests, a bunch of filesystem processes, which were convenient for keeping state while waiting for the disc as well as for doing the internal copy operations, and a bunch of ether output processes which were there to keep state while waiting around for the ACK/NAK from the other end. The Mouse kernel (of which someone else might write more) prompted another rewrite, with a somewhat over-complicated hierarchic filesystem and the very useful ability to run the filesystem on a "user" machine. We had a handful of stand-alone Fred-machines latterly (early '90s I suppose) with one or two 70Mb discs each. The wire-protocol was still essentially unchanged from the 1976 spec that I worked from when I did the 198x rewrite. I've got both lots of my filestore code on-line now, but haven't yet had time to pick through it to extract the real stuff from the throw-away programs that happened to have been archived alongside it. -- Dr George D M Ross, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-95-1013556478-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 12 17:20:55 2002 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA14303 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:20:54 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-95-1013556478-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Feb 2002 23:27:58 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 12 Feb 2002 23:27:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 63176 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 23:27:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Feb 2002 23:27:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 23:27:56 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA14267; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:20:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202122320.RAA14267@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:20:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Translations of APM docs to HTML Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Encouraged by a chance remark from Ian Young, I decided to see how easy it would be to hack some code to convert some of the APM man pages we've received, to HTML. This isn't as big a project as it sounds, because they're written in a very limited subset of LaTeX. In one of my previous jobs, I used to write converters from arbitrary typesetting formats to SGML. After some months of doing these the hard way, I built a YACC-like parser to help me (one which didn't suffer the limitations of YACC when dealing with such arbitrary input). So I was able to generate simple converters in an hour or less. Well, looks like I still have the knack, because I've just hacked up a subset Latex -> html converter using my parser, for the APM documentation, and it works now (1 hr later) at least on the one sample document I tried :-) Adding tweaks for more documents is easy; and the HTML generated is very simple and easy to hand edit if need be; there's a limited number of documents in total and it only needs to be done once. I've only worked on the LaTeX man pages so far; I haven't done anything for the Layout ones yet, before I've checked with Hamish, because he intimated that he might turn his attention to it if he had time. Here's a sample document: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/tacc/latex-project/example.tex.txt and the HTML output: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/tacc/latex-project/example.html And here's the program which did the conversion: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/tacc/latex-project/article.e And a description of the parser: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/ (It's some way down the page, look for "TACC") regards Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-96-1013561025-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 12 18:36:43 2002 Received: from n26.groups.yahoo.com (n26.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.76]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA16581 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:36:42 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-96-1013561025-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n26.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Feb 2002 00:29:19 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 13 Feb 2002 00:43:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 89178 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 00:43:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Feb 2002 00:43:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 00:43:44 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA16572 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:36:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202130036.SAA16572@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:36:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Who wrote .DOC -> .TEX converter? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I've just realised (somewhat belatedly) that the reason for the consistency in these .TEX files is that they've been machine generated once already, from Layout .DOC files. Hence there must exist a layout reader that can be adapted to generate HTML instead of TEX. Anyone know who wrote it or what it's called? (I'm probably asking JHB/GDMR/RWT but anyone can answer) G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-97-1013669664-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 00:47:16 2002 Received: from n28.groups.yahoo.com (n28.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.78]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA09944 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:47:16 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-97-1013669664-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n28.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Feb 2002 06:54:24 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 14 Feb 2002 06:54:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 38757 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 06:54:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Feb 2002 06:54:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 06:54:22 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id AAA09932 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:46:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202140646.AAA09932@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:46:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] APM documentation Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I've pretty much finished the mini-project to recover the APM online manual pages from TeX to HTML. Most of the errors left turn out to have been in the original TeX, which was probably machine translated from some lost Layout source at one point. My hack conversion gives very readable and editable html, so if we do want to put this online some time the final tweaks can be made by hand. I did most everything except tabbing and tables, but this turns out not to be too big an exception as most tables are in tty font literal mode rather than using TeX tables or tabbing. An example of a finished document is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/APM/MANUAL/ECCE.TEX.html You can browse all the documents here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/APM/MANUAL/index-html.html just click on the .TEX files, they'll come up as html. I believe some of the students are workimg on a Fred Machine emulator as their project this year. They may find the html-ised documentation helpful - would someone who knows who they are point them at it... Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-98-1013749976-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 23:05:49 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA11728 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:05:48 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-98-1013749976-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2002 05:12:56 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 15 Feb 2002 05:12:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 57120 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 05:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Feb 2002 05:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 05:12:54 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA11716 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:05:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202150505.XAA11716@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:05:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] New Scientist article; Multics history site Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO 9th Feb New Scientist has an article about an ex-pat Scot running a Computer History Museum in the US. http://www.computerhistory.org/ This museum inherited the kit from the Boston museum, which threw out a lot of stuff when it changed its focus from being a serious museum to being a kiddy show-and-tell exhibit. I visited the museum during its heyday and was suitably impressed. (Still have the somewhat raggedy sweatshirt) There's a small chance that if we find old media that we can't read here, someone like this US museum may still be able to read it for us. There are other projects over here for restoring old systems and software that could be approached too, such as the computer history simulation project, run by a friend of Bill Laing (who himself joined our mailing list today); that one is at http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ - I'm hoping Bill will post and tell us of the sort of thing he worked on at Edinburgh. (My recollection being it was mainly multi-processor support for Emas?) Another site of interest is the Multics history page, http://www.multicians.org/ - this is to some extent what I'ld like to do with this project. (Only better of course, just like EMAS was better than Multics ;-) ) Damn, that was an ugly language they programmed in! But at least their sources are online. We're still struggling to find ours! G To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-99-1013761228-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 15 02:13:18 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA05752 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:13:18 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-99-1013761228-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2002 08:20:29 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 15 Feb 2002 08:20:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 8229 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 08:20:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Feb 2002 08:20:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 08:20:26 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id CAA02934 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:12:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202150812.CAA02934@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:12:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Claim to fame??? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO 

I extract the passage below from some remarks made by Andy Tanenbaum
some years ago; the context isn't important; it's just a convenient
short definition of a micro-kernel:

   1. MICROKERNEL VS MONOLITHIC SYSTEM

   Most older operating systems are monolithic, that is, the whole operating
   system is a single a.out file that runs in 'kernel mode.'  This binary
   contains the process management, memory management, file system and the
   rest. Examples of such systems are UNIX, MS-DOS, VMS, MVS, OS/360, 
   MULTICS, and many more.
 
   The alternative is a microkernel-based system, in which most of the OS
   runs as separate processes, mostly outside the kernel.  They communicate
   by message passing.  The kernel's job is to handle the message passing,
   interrupt handling, low-level process management, and possibly the I/O.
   Examples of this design are the RC4000, Amoeba, Chorus, Mach, and the
   not-yet-released Windows/NT.


Let me see now... 

* most of the os runs as separate processes

* they communicate by message passing

* kernel handles interrupt handling, low-level process management, possibly I/O

... thinks ...

This is EMAS!  In fact EMAS is more of a micro-kernel than his typical
example.

I wonder if anyone looked at it that way before.  I think EMAS was
a micro-kernel before anyone had even thought of the word, in all the
areas that define a micro-kernel.

And look at the code sizes for each of the components! -

paging     5200 lines
comms      1425 lines
params/ops 1705 lines
disc/drum  1525 lines
director   3500 lines
demons     3849 lines
shell       818 lines
loader     1412 lines
                                     (figures from the EMAS Overview paper)

Although back then it probably looked like a big system, compare those
figures to a regular Unix; and to something like the Mach or Chorus kernels!

Is it too late for a claim for the history books??? :-)

G
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-100-1013770135-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 15 04:41:44 2002 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.51]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA15840 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 04:41:43 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-100-1013770135-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2002 10:48:55 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 15 Feb 2002 10:48:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 45322 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 10:48:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Feb 2002 10:48:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 10:48:54 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-76-232-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.76.232] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16bfv8-0003yo-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:48:50 -0500 Message-ID: <005401c1b60e$5c499c90$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <200202150812.CAA02934@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:48:44 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Claim to fame??? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Graham >> ...This is EMAS! In fact EMAS is more of a micro-kernel than his typical example... Is it too late for a claim for the history books??? :-) ... << You're making a lot of great suggestions in this and other recent emails. But how would we go about publicising the work that went on at Edinburgh? We don't want history to repeat itself yet again, where we talk of how good the systems were but don't do anything to promote this outside our own little group. I had a look at the Multics site and it looks very well designed and bursting with information. I agree that an EMAS site like this would be tremendous and I'm all in favour of putting one together. I'll help in any way I can. Mike. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-101-1013785525-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 15 09:04:13 2002 Received: from n14.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.64]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22105 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:04:12 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-101-1013785525-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2002 15:12:50 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 15 Feb 2002 15:05:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 55060 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 15:05:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Feb 2002 15:05:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 15:05:24 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id IAA21851 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:57:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202151457.IAA21851@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:57:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Claim to fame??? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > >> ...This is EMAS! In fact EMAS is more of a micro-kernel than his typical > example... Is it too late for a claim for the history books??? :-) ... << > > You're making a lot of great suggestions in this and other recent emails. That was was half tongue in cheek, and half serious :) In as much as I actually believe it myself but I don't expect anyone else to! > But how would we go about publicising the work that went on at Edinburgh? We > don't want history to repeat itself yet again, where we talk of how good the > systems were but don't do anything to promote this outside our own little > group. First you build the web site; then they come :) I never had any intentions of this project just being a little Edinburgh gab-fest - it has been my intention from the start that we create this repository of code, accompanied by documentation and a description of what it is and why it is important, so that both students and implementors of operating systems etc can study it, steal from it and not reinvent the wheel every 10 years. > I had a look at the Multics site and it looks very well designed and > bursting with information. I agree that an EMAS site like this would be > tremendous and I'm all in favour of putting one together. I'll help in any > way I can. Thank you. The #1 priority is of course to aquire the sources; our best bets so far in that area are: a) Bob Eager - the copy of Emas run at Kent b) The EUCS CD jukebox archive c) many members of our group have paper listings of vital componemts You can help in 3 ways - pick one or more of these... a) Go visit Graham Rule at the EUCS (if you can get in the building which apparently is no longer as easy as it was in my day) and work with him to get us access to th CD jukebox; and to get permisson from A McKendrick to actually take the files if you can find them; I did want Gordon Brebner to do the top-level politicking, as he's the respectable member of this motley crew, but he has other time commitments so its time for us to move forward on this thing on our own. Since I'm in the US and don't have any local accounts from where to access the archive, perhaps you would take point on this? Remember we have blanket permission from Hamish to access any of his files from Emas, so that may be a good account to start with, to get the admin details approved etc. or b) start scanning paper listings. Easiest to get access to are David Rees' ones I'd suggest, at first. A scan of past postings may show who else has EMAS components on paper; if not I can find them in my personal email archives. c) *After* we have some actual content, start designing a presentation web site. My HTML skills are limited in the extreme. However don't rush into web site design; getting the primary source material online first is the priority, even if its harder work and not as much fun. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-102-1013798644-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 15 12:36:52 2002 Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA28320 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:36:51 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-102-1013798644-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n35.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Feb 2002 18:44:04 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 15 Feb 2002 18:44:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 51245 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 18:44:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Feb 2002 18:44:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 18:44:03 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-76-232-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.76.232] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16bnKs-000123-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:43:54 -0500 Message-ID: <00d301c1b650$bcc831c0$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <200202151457.IAA21851@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:42:24 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Claim to fame??? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Graham I'm not so sure I agree that the code repository should come first, although of course it is crucial. This is a marketing issue - and that's what the problem was first time round. If we want to get anywhere, we need a good web site and aggressive promotion. It's the latter that I'm not sure about. >> a) Go visit Graham Rule at the EUCS... << Unfortunately, I'm a "nobody". I was a student in Edinburgh at the start of the '80s and loved what was going on there, but I wasn't even a CS major (my degree is in Astrophysics) and I'm quite sure that no-one would remember me or have a clue who I am. I once met Andrew (?) McKendrick back around 1982 - I'm surprised he's there - when Mac (can never remember his real name) suspended my EMAS account for spending too much time hacking around in IMP instead of doing my CS Pascal assigment and had to go cap in hand and ask for reactivation. I hardly think that's going to count for much. >> b) start scanning paper listings... << I used to have some myself, but I think I threw them out years ago. I'd rather wait to see if we can get them some other way, e.g. Jukebox access, before embarking down this road. >>c) *After* we have some actual content, start designing a presentation web site... << This is much more in my line of expertise. However, as I said above, I don't think we need to have source code content before building a site. We've got quite a few documents already, and just need people to do some writeups introducing EMAS and fleshing out the history, etc. This would be enough to get a site started, along with the source code we've secured already (how much is EMAS and how much is APM/Fred machine, Interdata, etc?). Mike. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-103-1013979659-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 14:53:39 2002 Received: from n29.groups.yahoo.com (n29.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.79]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA02501 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:53:38 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-103-1013979659-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n29.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Feb 2002 21:00:59 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 17 Feb 2002 21:00:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 94599 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2002 21:00:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Feb 2002 21:00:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Feb 2002 21:00:56 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA02482 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:53:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202172053.OAA02482@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:53:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Very early ECCE restored! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Rainer Thonnes has painstakingly typed in one of the earliest versions of Ecce we've been able to find so far, from a listing he thinks comes from 1975. This ran on the PDP9/15 which was an 18-bit processor with word addressing, i.e. no bytes. Hamish's convention on this machine was to pack three 6-bit 'bytes' into a word, and unpack them in software when needed. This is why all the source text files for the 9/15 are in upper case only. Not only has Rainer restored the original perfectly, he has also made some minimal changes (in line with the original) to remove PDP9/15 dependencies so that the code could be compiled by any later Imp compiler on any system. Since we don't have many Imp compilers around nowadays, I have taken that Imp source and pseudo-mechanically translated it to C. The translation took some pains to make no changes to the source text, with the result that we can be confident that if the translation works, the original will too. The translation is to the extended dialect of C supported by recent GCC compilers - which allow nested procedures and arrays of labels, with the consequence that the Imp -> C translation can be quite literal. I'm hoping, incidentally, that some day we can perform this translation automatically using a modified parser from one of our Imp compilers; in fact an ideal goal would be to produce a GCC front-end for Imp that was compatible with all the GCC code generators. The historically accurate early Ecce is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915.imp http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915.imp.html and the faithful modernisation is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915b.imp http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915b.imp.html With the C transliteration here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915b.c http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915b.c.html If you want to recreate the quinessential Ecce experience, there's a DOS binary to play with here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915b.exe Clearly this is not the one to use for real work! There are better versions in the archive for live use. Hamish has squirmed a little at this old code, as it made heavy use of gotos, but doing so made it damned small! This is a really interesting historical artifact and fascinating to study in the development of one program with a lifetime of over 30 years. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-104-1013981960-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 15:32:11 2002 Received: from n29.groups.yahoo.com (n29.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.79]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA03404 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:32:08 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-104-1013981960-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n29.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Feb 2002 21:39:25 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 17 Feb 2002 21:39:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 31962 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2002 21:39:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Feb 2002 21:39:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.59) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Feb 2002 21:39:19 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.33] by n9.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Feb 2002 21:38:48 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00d301c1b650$bcc831c0$0200a8c0@gonzales> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:37:02 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Claim to fame??? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., "Mike Scott" wrote: > >> a) Go visit Graham Rule at the EUCS... << > > Unfortunately, I'm a "nobody". I was a student in Edinburgh at the start of > the '80s and loved what was going on there, but I wasn't even a CS major (my > degree is in Astrophysics) and I'm quite sure that no-one would remember me That doesn't matter, Graham (aka The Bish, if he still goes by that?) is quite approachable. He knows about this project and you won't have any trouble representing us. > or have a clue who I am. I once met Andrew (?) McKendrick back around 1982 - > I'm surprised he's there - when Mac (can never remember his real name) > suspended my EMAS account for spending too much time hacking around in IMP > instead of doing my CS Pascal assigment and had to go cap in hand and ask > for reactivation. I hardly think that's going to count for much. We all have stories like that :-) In fact I've just had a very pleasant exchange of notes with Alan Bundy, and the biggest thing I remember about him was when he closed my AI2 EMAS acct and hauled me on the carpet for similar reasons to your story above :-) He'd forgotten all about it and wouldn't have cared even if he'd remembered; so don't let that stop you contacting Andrew McKendrick. I do think a face to face meeting will be more productive than email. > >>c) *After* we have some actual content, start designing a > presentation web site... << > > This is much more in my line of expertise. However, as I said above, I don't > think we need to have source code content before building a site. We've got > quite a few documents already, and just need people to do some writeups > introducing EMAS and fleshing out the history, etc. This would be enough to > get a site started, along with the source code we've secured already (how > much is EMAS and how much is APM/Fred machine, Interdata, etc?). Well, by all means start; I want to encourage any work on this project that people feel like contributing. My personal view of priorities is not important; it's just what I choose to work on personally. However I do think it'll be a somewhat bare site at the moment; we really only have Ecce and some APM stuff. Although I keep up a continuous effort in private mail to encourage folks to upload stuff, most people when it comes to the crunch are too busy to actually do anything hands on. Hence why I think we need one or two people actually in Edinburgh to go round prodding for donations, picking up old disks etc. I'll be doing a little web site maintenance myself today - constructing a bibliography using the notes from postings to this group and personal email; and I want to downgrade those TIFF files to smaller sized JPGs that people can view. After I've done that, by all means take the content of the site and start doing a graphic redesign. I'm very interested to see what you have in mind. If you have a site of your own where you can host it, I can redirect a sub-page to your site and you can work on it yourself without needing access here. G ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-105-1014015490-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 18 00:52:09 2002 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.63]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA15781 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:52:08 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-105-1014015490-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Feb 2002 06:41:21 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 18 Feb 2002 06:58:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 95333 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 06:58:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Feb 2002 06:58:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 06:58:09 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id AAA15738 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:50:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202180650.AAA15738@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:50:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Web page significantly updated Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I didn't have time to reformat the Tiff files as I'd hoped, but I have put in a few hours on updating the web page, and in particular extracting notes about Edinburgh systems from postings and emails. The web page (http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/#contacts) is worth another read at this point. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-106-1014027383-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 18 04:09:01 2002 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.58]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA17539 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 04:09:00 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-106-1014027383-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Feb 2002 10:16:23 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 18 Feb 2002 10:16:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 19614 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 10:16:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Feb 2002 10:16:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 10:16:22 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-76-232-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.76.232] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16ckqE-0001hp-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:16:14 -0500 Message-ID: <010c01c1b865$4e53b180$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <200202180650.AAA15738@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:16:12 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Web page significantly updated Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Graham Had a look at the new site and saw the para at the top about me restructuring it. The easiest way to do this and at the same time create a dynamic site would be to use an off-the-shelf freebie content management system. I suggest a phpNuke derivative which I've got most experience of. It's not perfect, but I can set up a site using it very quickly. Take a look at www.mikescommunity.com to see a community site I set up using it. The downside is that as it's database-driven, it needs more than just a file repository so there's a small cost involved - about $10 per month, unless I can get my web service provider to allow me to park a domain for free on one of my other sites. Then there would just be the domain registration fee, which isn't much these days. I'll investigate the freebie parking option and get back to you. In the meantime, I'm asking for some comments and feedback on using a phpNuke site like the one above. Mike. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-107-1014032671-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 18 05:38:24 2002 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.51]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA19702 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:38:23 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-107-1014032671-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Feb 2002 11:45:46 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 18 Feb 2002 11:44:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 18963 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 11:44:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Feb 2002 11:44:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 11:44:29 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id FAA19667 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:36:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202181136.FAA19667@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:36:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Imp compilers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Peter Robertson has generously given us permission to put several of his compilers online (assuming we can find the sources), *and* the binary of his Acorn archimedes imp compiler. This is more interesting than it may sound, because it means we can put together a package of Imp compiler plus Acorn Archimedes emulator which will let anyone who wants to compile Imp programs do so on an IBM PC! He also will let us access his old stuff from the EMAS archive tapes, when we get to them. This will include such classics as IMPI and SOAP. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-108-1014099306-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 00:07:42 2002 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA20187 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:07:40 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-108-1014099306-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 06:15:06 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 06:15:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 48142 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 06:15:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 06:15:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 06:15:04 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id AAA20174 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:07:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202190607.AAA20174@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:07:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Although some of our readers may not recognise Mike's name, a few of them (such as Paul Bratley, David Rees and Harry Whitfield) certainly will! Mike was the deputy director of the original Computer Unit from 1963 to 1965. I'm forwarding his introductory email to the list: -- Your email brought back memories - not all technical! Peter Schofield and I drove up to Edinburgh in July '63. Peter had arranged to be in charge of one of the informal student houses, and for ten days I moved in too plus acting as his navigator. I must have done a good job because when my family arrived he had not the foggiest idea where he was or where he was going. Our first job was to move Sidney and family plus assorted others (including us while our house at Bonaly was finished) into the mansion at 4 .... There are even more stories there than bedrooms (or layers of wallpaper). For example, when Sidney installed the central heating he bought the back off an oil tanker to make the fuel store. The central heating caused the 160 year old timbers to shrink. Did you know that soot, or something like it, was once used for between floors insulation? Edinburgh was very congenial in those days - you could even get a parking place in George St. Computing had got off to a bad start at Edinburgh. In the first UGC round the University had been asked its intentions. Aitken, Professor of Math, said there was no interest (meaning he had no interest, but Edinburgh Professors tended to think that way then). This meant that in the second round the University started from behind the eight ball. The University of Manchester's offer of a landline connection seemed preferable to the second hand Pegasus from the University of Leeds (if I remember correctly). We were initially installed in 1-2 rooms in the Chemistry Dept. at Kings Buildings, but moved to Buccleuch Pl. as Atlas began its first attempts at job processing. Installation of the link proved interesting. The Post Office didn't seem enthusiastic, and when a technician eventually arrived he had no technical data and no idea how to proceed. In the end he watched while Sidney connected it. Of course the appetite for computing resources far exceeded any possibility of Manchester servicing them, and the links (never on line) were low on their priority scale, so we ended up sending jobs plus our own operator to Manchester. Turn around time of a week was about the norm, so careful checking of programs before dispatch was crucial. This was the context in which Harry Whitfield was cornered into agreeing to develop the AA compiler for the KDF9 (He and Bratley were in the ELRU at the time, one morning over coffee Harry overextolled the virtues of recursive programming and phrase structure grammars, and there was a not insignificant component of calling Harry's bluff then and there in getting the project started - Peter Schofield had skills in this direction, but I don't think he actually wrote any of the code). Once committed the committment was total. This was the seminal step on which the rest of the story rests because it was the success of this project which led the Flowers' Committee to leapfrog Edinburgh into the top bracket of the pecking order (it also put paid to a number of local political type distractions). Jimmy Thorne probably had good reason to feel somewhat resentful at his (ELRU) staff's involvement but I was not aware of him complaining. It should be noted that Bratley's accuracy in programming was phenomenol and played an enormous part in the overall success (not wanting to minimize the roles of either Harry or David Rees who were just ordinarily remarkable). There was a first trip to Manchester in which a boot tape for the KDF9 was prepared on Atlas (using the compiler compiler?), corrections/repairs to the (paper tape) were made by eye and hand punch, before remarkably substantial action on the Liverpool KDF9 on the next evening and more surgery on the compiler tape on the train home. The real story is every bit as remarkable as any coffee table embroidary could make it. The Gates and Allen basic Basic compiler story is rather small beer by comparison. Given the KDF9 compiler our options were substantially broadened. With the generousity of Ewan Page at Newcastle, plus some help from Glasgow, plus the Schofield organizing ability, things did improve, and improve enough to really impress the Flower's visitation. The PDP8 came a bit later. I guess we had argued that a local syntax checker would help. Not as much as a real computer helped our morale! Our first teaching activities apart from AA courses (I still have a copy of the Atlas Autocode manual by Schofield and myself - CU report #1) had to do with a numerical analysis postgrad diploma. Alec Wight was one of our first students. Alistair Watson (now Professor at Dundee) was an early graduate student. David Rees was one of two graduate students from Imperial College who came with the initial appointments. The next staff appointment was Don Kershaw who came from the Admiralty and subsequently went to Lancaster. Sidney pushed for Computer Science in the undergraduate curriculum from the beginning with the result that it was ready to roll in step with the other developments. Michael R. Osborne Centre for Mathematics and its Applications Australian National University Canberra, A.C.T. 0200 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-109-1014100348-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 00:28:39 2002 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.58]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA20649 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:28:38 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-109-1014100348-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 06:35:56 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 06:32:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 50424 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 06:32:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 06:32:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 06:32:27 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id AAA20558 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:24:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202190624.AAA20558@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:24:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I've been reading the net's PDP8 FAQ (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8/) which of course has o mention of anything Edinburgh in it; my questions: did the PDP8 here have an operating system at all? If yes, a manufacturer one (which one?) or one written at Edinburgh? All I remember was bootstrap loading individual programs directly from paper tape, and running them stand-alone. The programs could read and write paper tapes, drive the X/Y dacs of an oscilliscope, and output 2-bit sound. I don't remember either magtapes or disk. How was it programmed? I assume assembler? Whose assembler? - DECs or ours? Did we cross-assemble? Was there a compiler? Did we cross-compile? Mike Osborne mentioned a syntax checker. Presumably IMP. Anyone know anything about that? Hamish? One of yours? I had a question about ECCE (which was - was it in Imp or assembler?) but that'll be answered soon because Hamish mailed me today to say he was typing in a copy of PDP8 Ecce. The main PDP8 site (http://www.pdp8.net/) does not list either an oscilliscope display or sound output as known options for that machine. Were they in any way non-standard? (In fact that site says the only sound was faked out by EM interference to an AM radio!) The site doesn't know about Tanks so I'll be sending Paul Bratley's information to them soon. If *anyone* has any paper listings of *any* PDP8 software that I don't already know of (i.e. DJR & ABD excepted) PLEASE let me know of it. If necessary I'll type it or scan it in myself. Nor do any of the PDP 8 emulators appear to support the oscilliscope display. By the way I tried to get in touch with anyone at Chambers St Museum to find out exactly what software they got along with the PDP8 from Appleton Tower. Never got a reply. Does anyone fancy dropping by there, finding the technology curator, and asking in person? (If so post before you go, to avoid dupliation) I would like us to find at least something that'll let us add to the PDP8 FAQ... Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-110-1014103952-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 01:25:14 2002 Received: from n16.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.66]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA22120 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:25:09 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-110-1014103952-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n16.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 07:32:25 -0000 X-Sender: paulmcl@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 07:32:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 2324 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 07:32:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 07:32:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp012.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.173.32) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 07:32:31 -0000 Received: from snjpca1-ar2-4-63-193-082.snjpca1.vz.dsl.gtei.net (HELO paul) (4.63.193.82) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 07:32:30 -0000 To: Message-ID: <002701c1b910$25856900$52c13f04@paul> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200202190624.AAA20558@admin.vt.com> From: "Paul McLellan" X-Yahoo-Profile: paulmcl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:39:14 -0800 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Surely the PDP8 had DEC-tape, those dinky little reels of tape that it could read forward and backward. The interesting question is whether it had any disc as well! By the way, Steve Holtzman's weird "music" recording of EMAS running on the 2900 is (or was anyhow) available on a CD that accompanied his book Digital Mantras. I have the book somewhere (I think the CD was extra, besides having heard the recording while in Ediburgh, I was not too keen to relive the experience). -- paul Recording from Digital Mantras (CD): Machine Music ICL 2970. Machine Music ICL 2970 is completely idiomatic digital sound. Discarding traditional acoustic models for describing sound that preexisted the computer -- Fourier synthesis, frequency modulation synthesis, and concepts such as frequency and harmony -- the question becomes how sound can be described in uniquely digital terms. At the core of digital technology, there is a binary world, either zero or one. The most basic digital processes are machine operations that manipulate strings of bits of information. Computer operations store, retrieve, add, XOR, and shift a string of bits. At its most fundamental level, a computer executes machine operations that manipulate binary information. The sounds of a computer executing these machine operations is a completely idiomatic digital sound. Machine Music ICL 2970 is the direct monitoring of every operation executed by an ICL 2970 mainframe computer. It's the sound of the computer's basic operations: store, retrieve, add, XOR, logical shift, and so on. Not sound described in terms of frequency or harmonic analyses or any other acoustic models that preexisted the computer; but machine instructions that were themselves conceived as part of the invention of the computer's architecture. Similar techniques were used to create the digital noises found in my After Artaud or After Schoenberg. The sounds generated cannot be conceived of in any terms that preexisted the computer. The title of Machine Music ICL 2970, recorded in 1978, is a reference to Lou Reed's double-album Metal Machine Music from 1974. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-111-1014113263-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 04:00:21 2002 Received: from n26.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.76]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA22360 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:00:20 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-111-1014113263-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n26.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 09:52:23 -0000 X-Sender: djr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 10:07:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 26616 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 10:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 10:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 10:07:42 -0000 Received: from dunvegan.dcs.ed.ac.uk (djr@dunvegan.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.53]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id KAA15871 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:07:41 GMT To: In-Reply-To: <200202190624.AAA20558@admin.vt.com> Message-ID: From: David Rees MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:07:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I seem to remember writing a simple syntax checker for the PDP8, though Hamish may have written a better one. The other thing I wrote for it was my music compiler - I think the museum has the paper tapes for it. David -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David J Rees, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Email: D.J.Rees@ed.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5182 URL: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/djr Fax: +44 (0)131 667 7209 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-112-1014113395-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 04:02:32 2002 Received: from n14.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.64]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA22401 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:02:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-112-1014113395-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 10:11:52 -0000 X-Sender: djr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 10:09:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 11750 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 10:09:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 10:09:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 10:09:54 -0000 Received: from dunvegan.dcs.ed.ac.uk (djr@dunvegan.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.53]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id KAA15959 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:09:53 GMT To: In-Reply-To: <002701c1b910$25856900$52c13f04@paul> Message-ID: From: David Rees MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:09:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO No Paul, our PDP8 never had DEC tapes; the PDP7 and 9 did though. Discs were way in the future! David On Mon, 18 Feb 2002, Paul McLellan wrote: > > > Surely the PDP8 had DEC-tape, those dinky little reels of tape that it > could read forward and backward. The interesting question is whether it > had any disc as well! > > By the way, Steve Holtzman's weird "music" recording of EMAS running on > the 2900 is (or was anyhow) available on a CD that accompanied his book > Digital Mantras. I have the book somewhere (I think the CD was extra, > besides having heard the recording while in Ediburgh, I was not too keen > to relive the experience). > > -- paul -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David J Rees, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Email: D.J.Rees@ed.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5182 URL: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/djr Fax: +44 (0)131 667 7209 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-113-1014114366-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 04:18:45 2002 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA22795 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:18:44 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-113-1014114366-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n2.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 10:26:06 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 10:26:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 21519 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 10:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 10:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 10:26:05 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.4]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id KAA17227 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:26:03 GMT Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1J8rF808966 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:53:15 GMT Message-Id: <200202190853.g1J8rF808966@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20011219 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:39:14 PST." <002701c1b910$25856900$52c13f04@paul> From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:53:15 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Surely the PDP8 had DEC-tape, those dinky little reels of tape that it > could read forward and backward. The interesting question is whether it > had any disc as well! My recollection is that it had neither disc nor (magnetic) tape. The PDP-9 and PDP-15 that I did CS2 on did have DECtapes but no discs (IIRC latterly the Filestore was used as a virtual disc). The 15/40 that we later acquired from somewhere had a fixed disc unit and an 800bpi mag-tape, as well as the vector-graphics unit and Steve's music interface. I'm pretty sure I still have my PDP-9 instruction card somewhere. I may even have listings of my attempts at Hamish's practicals -- there was one to produce a context-diff of a couple of files, and another where the goal was to drive as many of the paper-tape reader and punch, the printer, the links and the card-reader simultaneously as possible! (As well as Hamish, in CS2, we had DJR teaching compilers, Rod and Robin doing program correctness and recursive proofs, and John Gray on hardware. CS1 had been PDS and Frank Stacey giving a pretty good grounding in IMP.) -- Dr George D M Ross, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-114-1014120195-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 05:55:49 2002 Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.70]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA24901 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:55:48 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-114-1014120195-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 11:50:22 -0000 X-Sender: Pete.Stephens@analog.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 12:03:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 82085 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 12:03:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 12:03:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nwd2mime2.analog.com) (137.71.25.114) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 12:03:14 -0000 Received: from nwd2gtw1 (unverified) by nwd2mime2.analog.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:03:17 -0500 Received: from edin_exm1.analog.com ([137.71.117.15]) by nwd2mhb2.analog.com with ESMTP (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.7.1) id HAA03635 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by EDIN_EXM1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1LNQW3RT>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:58:20 -0000 Message-ID: To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: "Stephens, Pete" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:58:10 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] RE: EMAS multiprocessor Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >As I recall this was driven by the short MTBF of 2900 processors. The scheme was entirely symmetric with all devince interuupts going to both cpus who raced for the read-clear interrupt register. All spinning locks timed out. It this happened any processor that was still alive contacted the other. If there was no response it configured it off and carried on alone. The system thus livid thro 90% of cpu failures as a degraded system. Later when we had a DAP[array processor that could be used as extra store] we could configure off the dap and a disc drive to hand a mini machine to the engineers. It they could fix the fault the full configuration could resume running Peter Stephens ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-115-1014153470-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 15:12:16 2002 Received: from n21.groups.yahoo.com (n21.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.71]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12546 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:12:15 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-115-1014153470-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n21.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 21:04:51 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 21:17:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 53421 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 21:17:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 21:17:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 21:17:48 -0000 Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:17:48 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.232]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:17:47 +0000 Message-ID: <003b01c1b98b$90f12500$e8461f3e@jgh2> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:22:42 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > No Paul, our PDP8 never had DEC tapes; the PDP7 and 9 did though. > Discs were way in the future! Since we are on the subject of DEC-tapes, I thought you might like to look at this slide from my slide collection from 1971. I think it is the PDP7 (the logic being that it has DEC-tapes so can't be a PDP8!, and it is not the PDP9 or PDP15s which I knew better and have in many other photos), but I am willing to be corrected. I have not applied any colour correction from the original slide. (ps I inherited this slide - I only arrived in 1975!) This is just scanned on my Epson flat bed scanner. I would be interested to hear from anyone on the list with expertise in scanning slides. I have a "slide scanning" attachment, but it does not seem to give much improvement. All of my slides are fine to look at when holding up to the light, most of them give too dark an image once scanned. I am sure that GT would want scans of all my slides if I could get the scanning technology to work! best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-116-1014154768-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 15:32:00 2002 Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13177 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:31:59 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-116-1014154768-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 21:26:32 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 21:39:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 51414 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 21:39:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 21:39:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.121) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 21:39:27 -0000 Received: from pcow035o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:39:26 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.232]) by pcow035o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:39:26 +0000 Message-ID: <004301c1b98e$97089060$e8461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <003b01c1b98b$90f12500$e8461f3e@jgh2> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:44:21 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Rather a shame really.... I have now cracked the scanning problem by getting the options sorted out in the software - this is what comes of having too many software options. I have uploaded a few pictures to http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/lst Please give me feedback on whether you want higher resolution scans or any other suggestions. (ps if you want higher resolution we will soon run out of space on Yahoo groups!) All I need now is lots of time to scan my whole collection. best regards Gordon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-117-1014155338-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 15:41:29 2002 Received: from n32.groups.yahoo.com (n32.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.82]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13462 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:41:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-117-1014155338-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n32.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Feb 2002 21:48:58 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 19 Feb 2002 21:48:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 14602 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 21:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 21:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 21:48:57 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA13443 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:40:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202192140.PAA13443@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:40:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > interested to hear from anyone on the list with expertise in > scanning slides. I have a "slide scanning" attachment, but it > does not seem to give much improvement. All of my slides are They are *terrible*. Get a slide scanner if you can afford one. I found a good link on Tommy Thomas' page: http://www.scantips.com/ I got an 'open box' one at Fry's for under $200 US. > fine to look at when holding up to the light, most of them give > too dark an image once scanned. > > I am sure that GT would want scans of all my slides if I could > get the scanning technology to work! :-) Thought hadn't even crossed my mind. But... IAY has a high-tech slide scanner... Great picture of the 15/40. I had been confusing it with the 9/15, and had forgotten what the smaller 9/15 looked like; I'd also completely forgotten about the PDP7 - that was the one with lunar lander, not the PDP8 as I'd said in the notes. I have some editing to do! But.. you do need a slide scanner. Sorry, but 2/3rds of those pictures wouldn't be good enough quality to put on the final web site (though obviously they're great for our own interest) Maybe I can send you some magtapes to read and you can send me some slides to scan... G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-118-1014164536-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 18:14:55 2002 Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18312 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:14:53 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-118-1014164536-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n4.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 00:22:20 -0000 X-Sender: bratley@IRO.UMontreal.CA X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 00:22:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 59609 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 00:20:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 00:20:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mercure.iro.umontreal.ca) (132.204.24.67) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 00:20:32 -0000 Received: from [132.204.25.65] (ppp25065.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.25.65]) by mercure.iro.umontreal.ca (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1K0KT5J004526 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:20:30 -0500 Message-Id: <200202200020.g1K0KT5J004526@mercure.iro.umontreal.ca> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Priority: 3 From: "Paul Bratley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:19:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Mike's message brought back many happy memories, but on one point I think he is wrong. (I hope he is, for otherwise it is my memory which is failing.) He says that the KDF9 Atlas Autocode compiler involved compiling on the Atlas at Manchester and testing the output on a KDF9 in Liverpool. In my recollection we did the compiling on the Atlas at Harwell, and the testing on the KDF9 at Oxford University. In support of my version: (1) as far as I can recall I have never been in Liverpool in my life, and (2) I still remember the pleasure I derived from being met at Heathrow by a driver with a car and whisked off to the pub where we were to stay. I suppose there was a good economic justification for this in the days when renting a car was less commonplace than now, but it certainly made me feel very pampered. Paul Bratley ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-119-1014164778-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 18:18:53 2002 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18408 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:18:50 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-119-1014164778-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 00:26:19 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 00:26:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 39216 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 23:28:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Feb 2002 23:28:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.31.74.88) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 23:28:27 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:40:51 -0000 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED059F8E@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'Graham Toal'" Cc: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:40:42 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > They are *terrible*. Get a slide scanner if you can afford one. > I found a good link on Tommy Thomas' page: > http://www.scantips.com/ Good link; it is a well-regarded site. He is (rightly) pretty uncompromising about this whole area: http://www.scantips.com/faq2.html#slides > Thought hadn't even crossed my mind. But... IAY has a high-tech > slide scanner... My 35mm scanner isn't particularly high tech, but it should be able to do a bit better than this. Actually, this reminds me to rake through the old off-line negative files: I'm sure I have some machine halls stuff as well. On-line, I've only got some random pictures of people like Rothwell and a picture of you sitting in front of "North 3", which is probably not historic enough. I'll let you know if I locate something more interesting. > Maybe I can send you some magtapes to read and you can send me some > slides to scan... I can do a few here and see how we get on, if Gordon is willing. -- Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-120-1014167130-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 18:58:02 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA19505 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:58:01 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-120-1014167130-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 01:05:30 -0000 X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 01:05:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 31889 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 01:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 01:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 01:05:26 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:05:26 +0000 Received: from tiny (unverified [80.195.34.53]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:05:26 +0000 Message-ID: <012901c1b9aa$498f6e00$3522c350@tiny> To: References: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED059F8E@puck.iay.org.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Rainer Thonnes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:02:37 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Actually, this reminds me to rake through the old off-line negative files: > I'm sure I have some machine halls stuff as well. On-line, I've only got > some random pictures of people like Rothwell and a picture of you sitting in > front of "North 3", which is probably not historic enough. I'll let you > know if I locate something more interesting. I have, in the flesh, the original "North 4" sign. I understand John Dow, who used to take the class photos, blew up some close-up photos of Olivetti output to make these. They date from about 1974/5 when there existed two clusters of four "baby" Interdata 74s, each with a "mother" Interdata 70. There was one such cluster in each of the North and South machine halls. I also have the "SYSTEM UNAVAILABLE, Machine Malfunction" sign. Does anyone remember this? It was just Letraset on card, mind. Speaking of JCD, he goes back a bit. He was, I understand, originally employed by the "CAD Project", under John Gray. This dates back to around when the Department was first formally constituted. But I may be wrong, it was before by time. My matric co, 7323892, is a reminder that I joined CS1 in 1973. John retired a year or so before I resigned. His retiral was a little early, as had Peter Lindsay's been, who is to be credited with the design of the "links", which were way ahead of their time. Co-ax cable serial connections, but asynchronous (i.e. transmission speed was receiver-controlled on the basis of character by character acknowledgement) and operating at 264kBaud. One of John's daughters still works for the Dept as a CSO, but there was a time when another of his daughters worked there as a secretary. Eleanor Kerse (who joined the Dept when her boss Rod Burstall defected from AI) is to be credited with the priceless remark that the department was well enDOWed. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-121-1014167828-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 19:09:39 2002 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA19822 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:09:39 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-121-1014167828-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 01:17:08 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 01:17:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 55028 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 01:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 01:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 01:16:38 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1K1GCd15520 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:16:12 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.158] (black29.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.158]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25158 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:16:10 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200202200020.g1K0KT5J004526@mercure.iro.umontreal.ca> References: <200202200020.g1K0KT5J004526@mercure.iro.umontreal.ca> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:15:27 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >Mike's message brought back many happy memories, but on one point I think he >is wrong. (I hope he is, for otherwise it is my memory which is failing.) > >He says that the KDF9 Atlas Autocode compiler involved compiling on the >Atlas at Manchester and testing the output on a KDF9 in Liverpool. In my >recollection we did the compiling on the Atlas at Harwell, and the testing >on the KDF9 at Oxford University. In support of my version: (1) as far as >I can recall I have never been in Liverpool in my life, and (2) I still >remember the pleasure I derived from being met at Heathrow by a driver with >a car and whisked off to the pub where we were to stay. I suppose there was >a good economic justification for this in the days when renting a car was >less commonplace than now, but it certainly made me feel very pampered. > >Paul Bratley As I remember it, at various times we compiled on the Manchester, Harwell and London Atlases, but the Harwell Atlas was the most reliable and the working conditions there were the most congenial. We stayed at a pub in Didcot(?). The testing was done mainly on the Glasgow KDF9, but we may also have used the Newcastle KDF9. I don't think we ever went to Liverpool. I remember driving to Glasgow in my Land Rover on many occasions. I still have listings of the version I and K compilers. Another minor correction to Mike's message is worth mentioning. Peter Schofield wrote the arithmetic and conditional expression parts of the compiler. David Rees wrote the PERM, and Paul Bratley and I wrote the main body of the AA compiler. On one occasion at Glasgow, while compiling a test program, the paper tape input stopped for about 70 seconds, then, to our amazement, started again. The program finished compilation and executed correctly. We discovered that a conditional statement with a complex arithmetic expression had gone rather deep in recursion because of the way we had defined the grammar. After a fairly trivial re-arrangement of the grammar we got the time down to about a third of a second. On another occasion, we played a (nasty) practical joke on our glamorous secretary and flexowriter operator (Maggie). She had dropped a big reel of paper tape which made quite a mess. While she was out we spliced the two ends together, which made it rather difficult for her to find the ends. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-122-1014170504-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 19:55:18 2002 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA20897 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:55:17 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-122-1014170504-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n2.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 02:01:44 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 02:01:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 18410 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 02:01:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 02:01:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.66) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 02:01:42 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.91] by n16.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 02:01:34 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:01:40 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Harry Whitfield wrote: > Another minor correction to Mike's message is worth mentioning. Peter Schofield wrote the arithmetic and conditional expression parts of the compiler. > > David Rees wrote the PERM, and Paul Bratley and I wrote the main body of the AA compiler. Since this is probably the first most significant program from Edinburgh (and as Mike Osborne said was responsible for the change of attitude that allowed Edinburgh to be so well funded), I think we should make an exception to the plan of "online sources first, scans later" and have this scanned right away as a highlight exhibit. Harry, do you have any willing volunteers down there who would scan your listing? (Or the time to do it yourself?) Or do you trust me enough to mail it to me for scanning and return? Independent of whoever scans it in, I can handle the OCR. Networks are wonderful things. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-123-1014196036-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 02:59:53 2002 Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA27834 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:59:53 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-123-1014196036-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n27.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 09:07:16 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 09:07:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 86456 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 09:07:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 09:07:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 09:07:11 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.at1.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.202.242]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id JAA20064 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:07:10 GMT Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1K97At06173 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:07:10 GMT Message-Id: <200202200907.g1K97At06173@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20011219 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:02:37 GMT." <012901c1b9aa$498f6e00$3522c350@tiny> From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:07:10 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I also have the "SYSTEM UNAVAILABLE, Machine Malfunction" > sign. Does anyone remember this? It was just Letraset on card, mind. Oh yes. There was a similar "maintenance" one too IIRC. Gordon's slides brought back a few memories. I think I have some pictures around too somewhere (though no time to scan them at the moment). I reckon we could date them all by the positions of the machines in the M/H assuming the dates aren't on the slides, of course!) -- for example, the first of the (Interdata) filestore pictures must be around 1987/79, as it's in the original position by the east door, whereas the second dates from after it (and the VAX and the DC) was relocated beside the technicians' bunker after the 2972 moved out, so maybe 1981? The PDP-9 and PDP-15 pictures must be some time between 1976 and 1979, as when I first used them they were in the south hall, in the space where the Argus machines and ERTE were latterly, while the pictures have them through in the north hall beside the dark-room. Does anybody have any of Block O/P before it was rebuilt? I suspect it wasn't photogenic enough... Aside: I reckon the PDP-8 played tanks, and the PDP-9 had Rainer(?)'s lunar lander, controlled by the switches. The 15/40 had a mean two-person asteroids game. And if we still have any VAX backups, there should be the cubewar game, for which Nick (Rothwell) wrote the game front-end and I wrote the IPC back-end. BTW there's also a video around somewhere that AJS&I made to promote the Department, though quite what we would do with it if we could still find it I'm not sure. I suspect that anyone coming to visit us now wouldn't recognise the place! There was a makeover last summer, with walls being taken down and put up, carpet tiles on the floor, and yellowish paint on the walls. The north hall has been divided up into a large lab and a smaller workstation room, while the south hall has an expanded technician area, a secure server area, a couple of workstation rooms, and a "social area". As for the ERCC end...! -- Dr George D M Ross, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-124-1014200237-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 04:09:53 2002 Received: from n29.groups.yahoo.com (n29.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.79]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA29077 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 04:09:52 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-124-1014200237-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n29.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 10:17:17 -0000 X-Sender: djr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 10:17:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 15698 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 10:17:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 10:17:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 10:17:15 -0000 Received: from dunvegan.dcs.ed.ac.uk (djr@dunvegan.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.53]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id KAA22806 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:17:14 GMT To: In-Reply-To: <200202200020.g1K0KT5J004526@mercure.iro.umontreal.ca> Message-ID: From: David Rees MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:17:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I remember a couple of trips to Harwell testing the KDF9 compiler on Atlas - and Peter Schofield ringing Harry Whitfield up at 3am when it first worked! I seem to remember staying at "The Fox", Steventon, (was it?) when we were down there. I also had a trip to use the Nottingham KDF9 once, to say nothing of the many many trips to Glasgow!. David On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Paul Bratley wrote: > Mike's message brought back many happy memories, but on one point I think he > is wrong. (I hope he is, for otherwise it is my memory which is failing.) > > He says that the KDF9 Atlas Autocode compiler involved compiling on the > Atlas at Manchester and testing the output on a KDF9 in Liverpool. In my > recollection we did the compiling on the Atlas at Harwell, and the testing > on the KDF9 at Oxford University. In support of my version: (1) as far as > I can recall I have never been in Liverpool in my life, and (2) I still > remember the pleasure I derived from being met at Heathrow by a driver with > a car and whisked off to the pub where we were to stay. I suppose there was > a good economic justification for this in the days when renting a car was > less commonplace than now, but it certainly made me feel very pampered. > > Paul Bratley > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David J Rees, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Email: D.J.Rees@ed.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5182 URL: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/djr Fax: +44 (0)131 667 7209 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-125-1014202225-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 04:42:55 2002 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA29523 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 04:42:54 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-125-1014202225-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 10:50:25 -0000 X-Sender: Pete.Stephens@analog.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 10:50:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 78544 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 10:50:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 10:50:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nwd2mime2.analog.com) (137.71.25.114) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 10:50:24 -0000 Received: from nwd2gtw1 (unverified) by nwd2mime2.analog.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:50:25 -0500 Received: from edin_exm1.analog.com ([137.71.117.15]) by nwd2mhb2.analog.com with ESMTP (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.7.1) id FAA28080 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by EDIN_EXM1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1LNQWPQX>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:45:25 -0000 Message-ID: To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: "Stephens, Pete" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:45:16 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I recall equal heroics trying to get AA/IMP onto the early J OS first at Kidsgrove then less inconveniently at the City Chambers. Hugh reels of paper tape had to go through a highly tempermental reader that took a strong dislike to KDF9 output tape[Furry Feed Holes was the Kidsgrove's Engineers somewhat improbable diagnosis]. It then had to be assembled by an Assembler and put through a linker that had never seen a single module of anything like the size of the compiler. Getting onto the paged 4-75 was much easier but then DJR had written the assembler which was about 50 times as fast as the EELM version Peter > > > > I remember a couple of trips to Harwell testing the KDF9 compiler on > Atlas - and Peter Schofield ringing Harry Whitfield up at 3am when it > first worked! I seem to remember staying at "The Fox", Steventon, > (was it?) when we were down there. I also had a trip to use the > Nottingham KDF9 once, to say nothing of the many many trips to > Glasgow!. > > David > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-126-1014204562-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 05:21:52 2002 Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA00552 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:21:51 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-126-1014204562-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n35.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 11:29:22 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 11:29:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 74257 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 11:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 11:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 11:29:21 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1KBIg407829 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:18:42 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.167] (black38.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.167]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28467 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:18:40 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:17:52 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >--- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Harry Whitfield > wrote: >> Another minor correction to Mike's message is worth mentioning. >Peter Schofield wrote the arithmetic and conditional expression parts >of the compiler. >> >> David Rees wrote the PERM, and Paul Bratley and I wrote the main >body of the AA compiler. > >Since this is probably the first most significant program from >Edinburgh (and as Mike Osborne said was responsible for the change >of attitude that allowed Edinburgh to be so well funded), I think >we should make an exception to the plan of "online sources first, >scans later" and have this scanned right away as a highlight >exhibit. >From the listings, it appears that version I used underline for keywords and that version K was the first that used percent. I don't know what version J did. Neither version has a date and both versions have been heavily optimized with a lot of KDF9 in-line assembler code, which makes the listings long and tiresome to follow. The printing is also very faint in places. Maybe the other team members (David, Paul, Peter) might be able to recall when we were at that stage. I certainly don't! Our first compiler worked sometime around March 1965, which was when my elder daughter was born. The compiler project had run concurrently with my wife's pregnancy, somewhat neck and neck. I have a Computer Unit Report No. 4 issued on 1st October 1965, but with various (later) amendment pages. From this: (1/10/65) The authors wish to thank Mr.D.Kershaw for his help in writing and testing the mathematical function routines. (15/12/65) Normal Operating Instruction for Version H. (15/2/66) Normal Operating Instruction for Version I. (1-6-66) Version I of the compiler is now in general use and is free from 'bugs' as far as is known. The ISO tape code version (K) ... will shortly be bought (sic) into line with Compiler I, described here. [Version I had fault trapping, but not version K.] (1/6/66) output to KDF9 Line Printers. We would probably be better served by finding an earlier version of the compiler which had not been so "optimized". Do any of the paper tape archives still exist at Edinburgh (David?)? I have found a three volume set of documentation for version I, which includes lots of flow charts and a complete description of the compiler. >Harry, do you have any willing volunteers down there who would >scan your listing? (Or the time to do it yourself?) Or do you >trust me enough to mail it to me for scanning and return? It would take a very long time with the equipment I have here. I'll do some experiments (but don't hold your breath). However, I do think we should try to find an earlier version. >Independent of whoever scans it in, I can handle the OCR. Networks >are wonderful things. Not when you live in the country and can't even get ISDN. CD-R would be a better transport solution for me. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-127-1014205432-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 05:36:22 2002 Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA00907 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:36:21 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-127-1014205432-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n33.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 11:43:52 -0000 X-Sender: djr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 11:43:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 16680 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 11:43:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 11:43:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 11:43:50 -0000 Received: from dunvegan.dcs.ed.ac.uk (djr@dunvegan.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.53]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id LAA26468 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:43:49 GMT To: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: David Rees MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:43:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Re KDF9 AA compilers, was version I the 'ISO' version i.e. the first one that used Teletype 33s? I remember doing that one with help from Alex Wight. I also remember setting up a large number of TT 33s in the basement of 7 Buccleuch Place to use it! David -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David J Rees, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Email: D.J.Rees@ed.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5182 URL: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/djr Fax: +44 (0)131 667 7209 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-128-1014206703-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 05:57:32 2002 Received: from n22.groups.yahoo.com (n22.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.72]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA01379 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:57:31 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-128-1014206703-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n22.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 12:05:03 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 12:05:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 52973 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 12:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 12:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 12:05:02 -0000 Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:05:01 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.232]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:05:00 +0000 Message-ID: <008d01c1ba07$81efd340$e8461f3e@jgh2> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:09:54 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO In response to GDMR's comments: > I reckon we could date them all by the positions of the machines in > the M/H assuming the dates aren't on the slides, of course!) They arn't! > -- for example, the first of the (Interdata) filestore pictures must > be around 1987/79, as it's in the original position by the east door, > whereas the second dates from after it (and the VAX and the DC) was > relocated beside the technicians' bunker after the 2972 moved out, > so maybe 1981? Yes, I included both photos as the first one represents the original Paul/Vicky version, and the second photo represents it after Hamish got his hands on it (literaly in the photo!). I was also amused at the sign on the wall behind Hamish (DANGER - I wondered if this was just chance or my sense of humour at the time.) I agree with the dates, however I though that the 2900 in the CS machine halls was a 2970. > The PDP-9 and PDP-15 pictures must be some time between 1976 and 1979, > as when I first used them they were in the south hall, in the space > where the Argus machines and ERTE were latterly, while the pictures > have them through in the north hall beside the dark-room. I think that the PDPs were moved to the North Hall in 1978 or 1979 so these photos would be dated after that. My guess is somewhere between 1979 and 1981 for the dates. > Does anybody have any of Block O/P before it was rebuilt? I suspect it > wasn't photogenic enough... I did have, indeed there are several slides which I can visualise but can't find. These include the EMAS 4/75 Machine room, the PDP10, the VAX 780, block O/P, the 2970 etc. Either I have mis-alid a box, or I may be confused by the fact that when I worked for the CS dept I also looked after the departmental slide archive. Does anyone who is still with the department know if this still exists - if so it has lots of interesting photos. It consisted of two slide boxes of random slides which people had used for talks during the 1970's/early 80s. In response to DJR's comments: > John Butler here has just bought a nice slide scanner! jhb@dcs I think that we need to decide if we want to scan all my slides first. I have about 100 (so far) many of them are of peripherals or pictures from graphics screens. I may post a few more when I get some free time, but what I have already posted covers all of the systems which I have. Do people want to see photos of plotters, printers, robot arms etc? > I think the PDP7 picture is John Oldfield's PDP7 and not our > original one. Rainer will remember better - he did a billiards > game on the display I think. For those of us who were only in CS2 when the last PDP7 was discarded I think you will need to explain the comment further! Was there a departmental PDP7 and a CAD Project PDP7 - I was only ever aware of one (which played billiards). best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-129-1014208118-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 06:21:07 2002 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA01958 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:21:07 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-129-1014208118-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 12:28:38 -0000 X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 12:28:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 23870 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 12:28:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 12:28:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 12:28:37 -0000 Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:28:22 +0000 Received: from tiny (unverified [80.195.34.53]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:28:21 +0000 Message-ID: <003d01c1ba09$b0162d80$3522c350@tiny> To: References: <008d01c1ba07$81efd340$e8461f3e@jgh2> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Rainer Thonnes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:25:31 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > -- for example, the first of the (Interdata) filestore pictures must > > be around 1987/79, as it's in the original position by the east door, > > Yes, I included both photos as the first one represents the original > Paul/Vicky version, The terminal next to it is of course the infamous ICL7502, which might also help to date the picture. > > I think the PDP7 picture is John Oldfield's PDP7 and not our > > original one. Rainer will remember better - he did a billiards > > game on the display I think. > > For those of us who were only in CS2 when the last PDP7 was discarded > I think you will need to explain the comment further! Was there a > departmental PDP7 and a CAD Project PDP7 - I was only ever aware of one > (which played billiards). I don't know whether there were two or whether they were one and the same. It's conceivable that we got the CAD project's one in preference to it being thrown out. Certainly the picture is not of it in our machine halls. Mind you, I've a slight feeling ours wasn't quite as big, but I wouldn't swear to it. When we got rid of it, the space was used to house the PDP15/40 discarded by ERCC. It was snooker, by the way, not billiards. Written in 1976/77 in collaboration with Ken Adam. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-130-1014209370-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 06:42:00 2002 Received: from n14.groups.yahoo.com (n14.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.64]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02382 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:41:59 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-130-1014209370-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 12:51:29 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 12:49:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 16172 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 12:49:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 12:49:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.229.35) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 12:49:29 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1KCmcN08161 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:48:38 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.144] (black15.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.144]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25490 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:48:37 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:47:48 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Message from Mike Osborne Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >Re KDF9 AA compilers, was version I the 'ISO' version i.e. the first >one that used Teletype 33s? I remember doing that one with help from >Alex Wight. I also remember setting up a large number of TT 33s in >the basement of 7 Buccleuch Place to use it! > >David No. Version K appears to be the first ISO version. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get girl info @Beinggirl.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/MLQSAC/zDqDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-131-1014209751-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 06:48:21 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02525 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:48:20 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-131-1014209751-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 12:55:51 -0000 X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 12:55:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 40621 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 12:55:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 12:55:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 12:55:50 -0000 Received: from pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:55:50 +0000 Received: from tiny (unverified [80.195.34.53]) by pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:55:50 +0000 Message-ID: <004901c1ba0d$86652000$3522c350@tiny> To: References: <200202200907.g1K97At06173@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Rainer Thonnes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:52:59 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Aside: I reckon the PDP-8 played tanks, and the PDP-9 had Rainer(?)'s lunar > lander, controlled by the switches. Guilty as charged. I was inspired to write this by EMAS's LUNAR game, the one where you had to type in the thruster burn rate and duration, and it would then type out your speed, height, and how much fuel you had left. It was a tad unrealistic because it froze time and you could take as long as you like to plan your next move. > The 15/40 had a mean two-person asteroids game. I guess the 15/40's graphics setup must have been very similar to the PDP7's, and I must have ported my snooker game to it. Someone else (I suspect Fred King) must then have used my display driver package to make the asteroids game. This was all in Imp, of course, with no floating point support in the language. I don't remember whether all the number-crunching for snooker/asteroids was done with integers (Imp15 did not support %reals), I may well have put in a pseudo floating point support package, exploiting the PDP15's EAE (extended arithmetic element, which the PDP9 did not have). But if so, it means either that the PDP7 must also have had equivalent hardware, or that snooker just used integers. My memory is pretty hazy on this, it's conceivable that snooker never actually ran on the 7 but only on the 1540. But enough of you seem to think that it did, so it's probably true. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-132-1014213217-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 07:46:10 2002 Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com (n23.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.73]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA03910 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:46:09 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-132-1014213217-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 13:53:37 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 13:53:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 70947 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 13:53:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 13:53:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 13:53:35 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA03897 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:45:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202201345.HAA03897@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:45:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Someone else (I suspect Fred King) must then have used my > display driver package to make the asteroids game. This was > all in Imp, of course, with no floating point support in the > language. I don't remember whether all the number-crunching > for snooker/asteroids was done with integers (Imp15 did not It was not Fred, it was someone in my class, although I now forget who. For years I had been sure it was Andy Davis but he said it wasn't him when I asked him last week. I remember seeing the code once. It used POST() to position the asteroids which were display-list data structures. A move was an UNPOST() followed by a POST() to a new XY. A really nice interface for vector programming. (You would not believe the mess other vector systems can be - I do some programming for the Vectrex console and it's a complete abortion) And yes, it was all integer maths No reason why not on *any* system. All video games like this use integer maths. (Actually fixed point in most cases, but same thing) Anyone remember the fuss about "Brixton Breakout" and "Abortion" on the Charles terminals? G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-133-1014213878-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 07:57:08 2002 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA04133 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:57:07 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-133-1014213878-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 14:04:39 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 14:04:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 91526 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 14:04:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 14:04:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 14:04:37 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.4]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id OAA01635 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:04:36 GMT Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1KE4ZO06471 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:04:35 GMT Message-Id: <200202201404.g1KE4ZO06471@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20011219 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:45:33 CST." <200202201345.HAA03897@admin.vt.com> From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:04:35 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > Someone else (I suspect Fred King) must then have used my > > display driver package to make the asteroids game. This was > > all in Imp, of course, with no floating point support in the > > language. I don't remember whether all the number-crunching > > for snooker/asteroids was done with integers (Imp15 did not > > It was not Fred, it was someone in my class, although I now forget > who. For years I had been sure it was Andy Davis but he said it > wasn't him when I asked him last week. For some reason it's Ian Young's name which I associate with this. The graphics package was called SOGgy (for "segment oriented graphics" or something like that...). And we should be able to date it pretty exactly, because Mike Elliot was an MSc student at the time. Changing the subject yet again, I've put a copy of one of my versions of the filestore (the non-hierarchic APM one) at . It includes also the original Layout documentation by Hamish, Vicki, Kathy and Paul, and a note by me describing which parts of the protocol I implemented differently. I see it mostly dates back to 1986. -- Dr George D M Ross, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-134-1014217743-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 09:01:34 2002 Received: from n29.groups.yahoo.com (n29.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.79]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06435 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:01:33 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-134-1014217743-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n29.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 15:09:03 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 15:09:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 88006 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 15:09:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 15:09:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.31.74.88) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 15:09:02 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:08:59 -0000 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED059F96@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:08:57 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > It was not Fred, it was someone in my class, although I now forget > > who. For years I had been sure it was Andy Davis but he said it > > wasn't him when I asked him last week. > > For some reason it's Ian Young's name which I associate with > this. The graphics package was called SOGgy (for "segment > oriented graphics" or something like that...). SOGgy was indeed a graphics package wot I wrote. The "gy" in the acronym was "reserved for expansion". I didn't have anything to do with any of the non-trivial programs built on top of it, though, and I can't remember who wrote Asteroids in particular. -- Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-135-1014218002-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 09:05:54 2002 Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06581 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:05:52 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-135-1014218002-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n33.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 15:13:22 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 15:13:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 93118 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 15:13:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 15:13:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.75) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 15:13:21 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.178] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 15:08:29 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200202201404.g1KE4ZO06471@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:10:22 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., George Ross wrote: > For some reason it's Ian Young's name which I associate with this. warn't him either! > Changing the subject yet again, I've put a copy of one of my versions of > the filestore (the non-hierarchic APM one) at > . It includes also the Which reminds me: JGH: do you still have (your upgrades to ?) my VAX filestore client that I wrote somewhere around 1978 as a vac student? It would make a nice adjunct to the FS code which GDMR just posted when I update the web site tonight. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-136-1014219554-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 09:31:44 2002 Received: from n18.groups.yahoo.com (n18.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.68]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA07448 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:31:43 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-136-1014219554-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n18.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 15:39:30 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 15:39:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 80542 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 15:39:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 15:39:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 15:39:12 -0000 Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:39:12 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.232]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:39:09 +0000 Message-ID: <001601c1ba25$6c0afbe0$e8461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED059F96@puck.iay.org.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:44:02 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: PDP Graphics things & other photos. Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I didn't have anything to do with any of the non-trivial programs built on > top of it, though, and I can't remember who wrote Asteroids in particular. Sorry I can't shed any light on who wrote Asteroids. I am certain that the PDP 7 ran some pool-like program. I have no photos of any of the dynamic PDP15 programs, they don't show up very well on static slides, but I have posted a photo of the display running CHESS which I think was a DEC demo program. The PDP15 graphics ran from a display file processor, and the idea of a display file was included in EDWIN as a Pseudo-Display File (.pdf). Now if only I had been able to patent that extension.... (or indeed if John Gray had patented the extension .jpg) I have also added a few more APM photos, for you to play "guess the people" - no points for Richard Marshall. I have a couple more people using machines photos if you like that game. I have also added a Micro-Kit and VAX 780 photo. best regards Gordon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-137-1014219760-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 09:35:14 2002 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com (n25.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA07555 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:35:13 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-137-1014219760-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 15:40:45 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 15:42:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 50999 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 15:42:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 15:42:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 15:42:39 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:42:39 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.232]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:42:38 +0000 Message-ID: <001c01c1ba25$e8593040$e8461f3e@jgh2> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:47:31 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS Filestore client program Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Which reminds me: JGH: do you still have (your upgrades to ?) > my VAX filestore client that I wrote somewhere around 1978 as > a vac student? I had forgotten about this program. I don't think I have it, but the department must have VMS archives somewhere? I have a number of my undergraduate programs on paper tape or cards which I guess that no one can read anymore. I have a tape version of EDWIN which I will pull off sometime. best regards Gordon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-138-1014239232-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 15:00:57 2002 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17851 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:00:56 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-138-1014239232-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 21:08:28 -0000 X-Sender: paulmcl@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 21:07:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 65869 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 21:07:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 21:07:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp017.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.174.114) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 21:07:11 -0000 Received: from snjpca1-ar2-4-63-193-082.snjpca1.vz.dsl.gtei.net (HELO paul) (4.63.193.82) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 21:07:10 -0000 To: Message-ID: <008e01c1ba4c$9385b9e0$52c13f04@paul> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200202201404.g1KE4ZO06471@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> From: "Paul McLellan" X-Yahoo-Profile: paulmcl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:24:16 -0800 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO George, I see from looking over your filestore code that you were baffled by the date conversion code. I forget where I stole it from, and Peter Robertson stole it from the filestore. Rather naughtily I only commented it as "exercise for the reader" which I remember Hamish telling me off about when he re-impemented the filestore. Being Hamish he wouldn't copy the code until he understood how it worked, which, as you discovered is not immediately obvious. I don't think it is a "well-known" algorithm, since whenever I have seen date code it has calculated the year by dividing by 365 and then correcting for the number of leap years in the century so far, then stepped through a table of days per month, again worrying about 2/29 and whatever is left is the day in month. So in the interests of making it more well-known, here is how it works. It is actually quite simple and elegant. Here is your code: ! Convert the date into a printable form. ! (This %must surely be a well-known algorithm??) %externalstring(15)%fn unpack date(%short date) %owninteger last unpacked = -1 %ownbytearray s(0 : 8) %integer d, m, y %if date # last unpacked %start last unpacked = date d = (date + 21000) << 2 - 1 y = d // 1461 + 1 d = rem(d, 1461) d = ((d + 4) >> 2) * 5 - 3 m = d // 153 - 9 %if m <= 0 %start m = m + 12; y = y - 1 %finish d = (rem(d, 153) + 5) // 5 s(0) = 8 s(1) = d // 10 + '0' s(2) = rem(d, 10) + '0' s(3) = '/' s(4) = m // 10 + '0' s(5) = rem(m, 10) + '0' s(6) = '/' s(7) = y // 10 + '0' s(8) = rem(y, 10) + '0' %finish %result = string(addr(s(0))) %end Firstly, the 21000 is some arbitrary number so that we don't run out of 16 bits of days any earlier than necessary because of starting in 1900 . I thought, though my memory is hazy, that the original filestore actually did use the number of days since 1/1/1900 so maybe someone else put this correction in (correctly) noting that 32768 days since 1900 would come up in about 1990 which might have looked rather closer in the 1980s than in the mid-1970s. It turns out to be 30th August 1956 so I would suspect someone whose birthday is that day! Calling all 45 year olds. 1461 is the number of days in 4 years (3*365+366). Years are considered to start on March 1st, and the fact that they don't is corrected at the last moment by the "if m<=0" condition. The combination of these two things mean that each four year cycle has the leap day 29/2 as the 1461st day of the cycle. So the first part of the code calculates the year and how many days into the four year cycle we are. If you add 1900 to the year to make a 4 digit year, there isn't even a y2k problem since it runs fine until 2100 when it will incorrectly make it a leap year. The 5 and 153 come about from seeing that the months run in a 5 month cycle of 153 days: 31 30 31 30 31 (Mar, Apr, May, Jun, Jul) which repeats 31 30 31 30 31 (Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec) and again 31 30 31 30 31 (Jan Feb xxx xxx xxx). The ">>2" gets you to the day within a year which will always be 365 or less except for the 1461st day which will be 366 so that the phantom months (and the extra days in the 30 day February) don't occur, and Feb 29 only occurs in the last year of a cycle which is the leap year. So the 5s and 2s all come about from splitting the year into 5 month blocks and then doing the odd/even thing to decide if it is 30 or 31 days. So under the hood there is arithmetic going on modulo 1461, 5, 2, 153 that magically gets the right answer. Since I originally implemented this in assembler with limited memory, all the constants are pre-calculated as much as possible, which makes for denser code but certainly not more transparent. -- paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-139-1014240149-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 15:14:59 2002 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.51]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18378 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:14:58 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-139-1014240149-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2002 21:22:30 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 20 Feb 2002 21:22:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 97439 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 21:22:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2002 21:22:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 21:22:27 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0798.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.51.30]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g1KLMPw21715 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:22:25 GMT Message-Id: <200202202122.g1KLMPw21715@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c7412a3a; 20 Feb 02 21:18:28 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:18:27 GMT Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from "Paul McLellan" Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:24:16 -0800 > Rather naughtily I only commented > it as "exercise for the reader" which I remember Hamish telling me off > about when he re-impemented the filestore. Reminds me of the famous comment in UNIX V6: "You are not expected to understand this" Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-140-1014250405-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 18:05:52 2002 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23308 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:05:52 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-140-1014250405-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Feb 2002 00:13:25 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 21 Feb 2002 00:13:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 11327 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 00:13:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Feb 2002 00:13:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 00:13:23 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0165.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.48.165]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g1L0DLw30096 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:13:21 GMT Message-Id: <200202210013.g1L0DLw30096@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c743b68a; 21 Feb 02 00:12:24 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:12:23 GMT Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from "Paul McLellan" Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:24:16 -0800 > It is actually quite simple and elegant. Here is your code: > > ! Convert the date into a printable form. > ! (This %must surely be a well-known algorithm??) Looked familiar to me! In the EMAS supervisor (Pete S can probably give date)! Except I think that is fixed to work even past 2100..... Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-141-1014286021-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 21 03:59:27 2002 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA04405 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:59:27 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-141-1014286021-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n10.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Feb 2002 10:07:01 -0000 X-Sender: Pete.Stephens@analog.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 21 Feb 2002 10:07:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 14821 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 10:07:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Feb 2002 10:07:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nwd2mime2.analog.com) (137.71.25.114) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 10:07:00 -0000 Received: from nwd2gtw1 (unverified) by nwd2mime2.analog.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:06:56 -0500 Received: from edin_exm1.analog.com ([137.71.117.15]) by nwd2mhb1.analog.com with ESMTP (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.7.1) id FAA03398 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:06:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by EDIN_EXM1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1LNQWQPN>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:01:54 -0000 Message-ID: To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: "Stephens, Pete" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:01:53 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I took the EMAS date and time algorithim from a CACM published one I recall the No as 201Z but memory is Fallible. The original was in Algol60 Pete > > > ** Reply to note from "Paul McLellan" > Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:24:16 -0800 > > > It is actually quite simple and elegant. Here is your code: > > > > ! Convert the date into a printable form. > > ! (This %must surely be a well-known algorithm??) > > Looked familiar to me! > > In the EMAS supervisor (Pete S can probably give date)! > > Except I think that is fixed to work even past 2100..... > > > > Bob > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ---------------------~--> > Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck > Monitoring Service trial > http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------~-> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-142-1014402208-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 12:15:51 2002 Received: from n34.groups.yahoo.com (n34.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.84]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA26035 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:15:50 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-142-1014402208-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n34.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Feb 2002 18:23:29 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_2); 22 Feb 2002 18:23:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 39349 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 18:23:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Feb 2002 18:23:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 18:23:27 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA26021 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:15:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202221815.MAA26021@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:15:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Free time this weekend? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Just a reminder to anyone who has some software to be uploaded ... if you have any free time at the weekend, it would be a good time to put in half an hour on the history project. You can send stuff to us by FTP or by email. ftp to ftp.gtoal.com, log in as ftp and cd to /incoming. Dump everything you want to upload in a few .zip or .tar.gz or .tar.Z files - you won't be able to create subdirectories that work and it is very messy to "mput *.*" in a directory with multiple files in it - they'd get mixed up with everyone else's. Alternatively you can email them to me. If you have the luxury of a real mailer, send them as uuencoded files in the formats mentioned above (or shar, that works too); otherwise I *can* read MIME enclosures but it's trickier. If you're sending as MIME, the best way to do it is to send me a warning mail at gtoal@gtoal.com, then send the actual mime enclosure to gtoal@pizzabox.vt.com - that's a PC where decoding MIME is easy - but it's an email account I'd never look at otherwise. None of this is as complicated as it sounds. If in doubt, just mail me and ask for help. We've finished Phase 1 of the project - identifying what software we want to recover. Now it's time for phase 2, which is actually locating it and uploading it. I know you folks all have other things to do, but if even 1 or 2 people can upload something every weekend, we'll be doing well. (I do expect this project to take a year or so to come to fruition. Fortunately with age comes patience that I never had as a youth) Thanks Graham PS If FTP'ing, *REMEMBER BINARY MODE* for tarred or compressed archives! ftp ftp.gtoal.com ftp emailaddress cd /incoming bin hash prompt mput *.zip quit ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-143-1014484705-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 11:10:47 2002 Received: from n16.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.66]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA27959 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:10:46 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-143-1014484705-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n16.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Feb 2002 17:18:16 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 23 Feb 2002 17:18:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 82790 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 17:18:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2002 17:18:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 17:18:24 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA27947 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:10:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202231710.LAA27947@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:10:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Ferranti Argus 700 compiler?? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Anyone know who wrote the Imp77 compiler for the F700??? Thanks G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-144-1014487884-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 12:03:41 2002 Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.57]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA29230 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:03:41 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-144-1014487884-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n7.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Feb 2002 18:11:24 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 23 Feb 2002 18:11:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 76773 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 18:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2002 18:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 18:11:22 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA29208 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:03:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202231803.MAA29208@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:03:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] 3 Papers uploaded Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Brian Wichmann (not an Edinburgh person, but chances are any readers around in CS in the 70's will recognise his name) has scanned three of his classic benchmark papers on Ackermann's function specifically for us! (Nice guy, and he's done a damned good job of scanning - wish we had him on the project!:-) ) This is the benchmark that Chris Whitfield referred to in his notes about Peter Robertson's Imp77 for the PDP11 squeezing 4 bytes off Wulf's best hand coding. "The code generated by the Imp 77 compiler for the PDP11 is quite remarkable. It is better than what was thought to be the optimal hand coding. Peter Robertson, the designer of the compiler, explains this by noting that the compiler is in three passes. Allocating the two parameters to registers means that no stack frame is required. Classical optimization is then effective, including code motion. The improvement over Bliss is achieved by making the entry address the third instruction - the two previous incrementing and decrementing each parameter. This means that instructions are saved due to the commonality of the expressions in the calls" Of course what neither of them mentioned was that this came about one day when Ian Young and I were visiting PSR and showing him the previous documentation on Ackermann benchmarks, and he looked at the PDP11 coding and said "I bet we can do better than that". At which point he and Ian racked their brains to come up with a better hand coding, and *then* they tweaked the compiler so it would produce the same code. I must say in fairness it was a legitimate optimisation and applicable elsewhere, not just in the benchmark, but it does take the gloss off Peter's dinnertime story a little to know what really happened! :-) This also explains the comment in Wichmann's paper where he's a little surprised that the technique wasn't used on other Imp77 compilers - reason being it was hacked in to just that one on that day and forgotten about! Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-145-1014504377-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 16:38:37 2002 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.59]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06008 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:38:36 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-145-1014504377-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n9.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Feb 2002 22:46:17 -0000 X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 23 Feb 2002 22:46:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 66242 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 22:46:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2002 22:46:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 22:46:16 -0000 Received: from pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:46:15 +0000 Received: from tiny (unverified [80.195.34.53]) by pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:46:15 +0000 Message-ID: <001c01c1bcbb$7b064800$3522c350@tiny> To: References: <200202231710.LAA27947@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Rainer Thonnes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:43:14 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Ferranti Argus 700 compiler?? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Anyone know who wrote the Imp77 compiler for the F700??? Was this not Nick Shelness's machine bought with his grant to research distributed somethingorothering? Fred King and Igor Hansen were two of his RAs, and I suspect the third musketeer is who you're after, a Canadian called something like Ken Howard, or maybe there were more musketeers. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-146-1014505435-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 16:56:13 2002 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.63]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06443 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:56:11 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-146-1014505435-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Feb 2002 22:45:00 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 23 Feb 2002 23:03:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 20915 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 23:03:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2002 23:03:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 23:03:54 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA06422 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:55:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202232255.QAA06422@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:55:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Distant future projects Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I mentioned on the web page that some day I'd like to see an Imp to C translator. I suggested this might make a good student project some day, but wasn't a priority for us to handle right now. Well, as a side effect of a conversation with Rainer last week, discussing the triviality or otherwise of various pieces of software (Hamish story here that I might add to the web site some day), I decided to see just how easy or not it would be to write an Imp to C translator. Short answer is, it's relatively easy. I've spent about 3 days on it and have a first prototype that actually works quite well, for a subset of Imp around the Skimp level. I had considered going the whole hog and turning this into a full Imp to C, but after a day's rest and reflection I've decided to stop here at the proof of concept phase. When/if this is continued, the prototype should be thrown away, and I estimate about 20 full days work to get a reasonable working system. (Something I can't even think about now for lack of an Imp grammar or even a manual) [Note to lecturers among us: this is an ideally sized 1-term project for CS3. Maybe a little too easy for CS4] Anyway, I mention this now so that anyone who later wants to take this on knows to get in touch with me to have a gander at the prototype. (which is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/skimp.e ) I should have realised it wouldn't be too hard because I've seen the ptoc Pascal to C translator and it wasn't very complicated. Meanwhile I think I've allowed myself to get distracted too much by this; I have other priorities, and making headway on the history project primary goals is one of them. Much as I enjoy programming I've decided it isn't worth getting into heavy programming mode for several months at this time (since I have a day job too). Maybe after we've built up the project a lot more and there's less to do on that side... Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-147-1014535938-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 01:24:36 2002 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.58]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19249 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:24:36 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-147-1014535938-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Feb 2002 07:32:18 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 24 Feb 2002 07:32:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 1026 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2002 07:32:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Feb 2002 07:32:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 2002 07:32:16 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA19229 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:24:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202240724.BAA19229@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:24:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Skimp Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I never could leave well enough alone. I said earlier today that I was freezing my experiment in Imp to C - mainly because it was a prototype and needed a rewrite before I started properly, and I didn't want to do a half-assed job but I realised it would take several months of real time work (at weekends) to finish. Then I had a rethink... DJR kindly scanned the original SKIMP grammar for me on Friday, so what I've done is rewrite the program cleanly, as I intended to do later, but stick very strictly to the SKIMP grammar, not try to add most of the features of Imp from the top of my head. Consequently, what is now in the web page: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/ is a working **SKIMP** to C translator. Finished. The whole thing. About 3 hours for the rewrite :-) Sample imp source: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/test.imp Sample C output: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/test.c Now I can leave it with a clear conscience until later in the project when we or some willing students have the wherewithal to do a full Imp to C, to resurrect our old systems and get them running again. That was a fun diversion, but now it's time to put my managerial hat back on and resume the hustling to get additions to our archive. 'night Graham PS DJR's grammar is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/skimp/skimp.gram ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-148-1014583202-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 14:32:19 2002 Received: from n32.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.82]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04844 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:32:19 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-148-1014583202-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n32.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Feb 2002 20:40:03 -0000 X-Sender: BLAINg@windows.microsoft.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 24 Feb 2002 20:40:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 74635 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2002 20:40:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Feb 2002 20:40:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.microsoft.com) (131.107.3.123) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 2002 20:40:01 -0000 Received: from INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.5.27]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:39:15 -0800 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:39:14 -0800 Received: from red-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by inet-hub-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:39:14 -0800 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by red-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:39:13 -0800 Received: from win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.52]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3588.0); Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:37:02 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6157.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <4AEE3169443CDD4796CA8A00B02191CD047CB152@win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <4AEE3169443CDD4796CA8A00B02191CD047CB152@win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Thread-Index: AcG6vyUithEEVkoRRdGIk18fqwgU8wCs0/TX To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Feb 2002 20:37:02.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[03887DD0:01C1BD73] From: "Bill Laing" X-Yahoo-Profile: blaingfeb MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:37:01 -0800 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Peter's memory is very impressive. It is actually CACM algorithm 199 (published sometime before 1963). I was baffled by it in EMAS when I came across it and copied the page from the CACM collected algorithms. Amazingly I still have the photocopy in my pile of EMAS bits and pieces. /Bill -----Original Message----- From: Stephens, Pete [mailto:Pete.Stephens@analog.com] Sent: Thu 2/21/2002 2:01 AM To: 'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com' Cc: Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions I took the EMAS date and time algorithim from a CACM published one I recall the No as 201Z but memory is Fallible. The original was in Algol60 Pete > > > ** Reply to note from "Paul McLellan" > Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:24:16 -0800 > > > It is actually quite simple and elegant. Here is your code: > > > > ! Convert the date into a printable form. > > ! (This %must surely be a well-known algorithm??) > > Looked familiar to me! > > In the EMAS supervisor (Pete S can probably give date)! > > Except I think that is fixed to work even past 2100..... > > > > Bob > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ---------------------~--> > Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck > Monitoring Service trial > http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------~-> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-149-1014597004-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 18:22:32 2002 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.65]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA10468 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:22:31 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-149-1014597004-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n15.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Feb 2002 00:29:33 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 25 Feb 2002 00:30:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 48743 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 00:29:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Feb 2002 00:29:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 00:29:47 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0734.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.50.222]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g1P0TjC01793 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 00:29:46 GMT Message-Id: <200202250029.g1P0TjC01793@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c79856ca; 25 Feb 02 00:29:33 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 00:29:31 GMT Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] NOT some PDP 8 questions Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from "Bill Laing" Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:37:01 -0800 > Peter's memory is very impressive. It is actually CACM algorithm 199 > (published sometime before 1963). I was baffled by it in EMAS when I > came across it and copied the page from the CACM collected algorithms. > Amazingly I still have the photocopy in my pil e of EMAS bits and > pieces. I just downloaded it from the ACM website. It was a pain to find. August 1963, in fact, page 443. The problem is that it is NOT in the table of contents on the ACM website. It's on the same page as algorithm 198 (which is not as obvious as it sounds since they are not necessarily consecutive) and you need to download THAT. Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-150-1014635678-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 05:06:52 2002 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA23041 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:06:51 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-150-1014635678-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Feb 2002 11:14:38 -0000 X-Sender: Pete.Stephens@analog.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 25 Feb 2002 11:14:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 97057 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 11:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Feb 2002 11:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nwd2mime2.analog.com) (137.71.25.114) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 11:14:36 -0000 Received: from nwd2gtw1 (unverified) by nwd2mime2.analog.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:14:44 -0500 Received: from edin_exm1.analog.com ([137.71.117.15]) by nwd2mhb1.analog.com with ESMTP (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.7.1) id GAA27321 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by EDIN_EXM1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1LNQWSWK>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:09:33 -0000 Message-ID: To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: "Stephens, Pete" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:09:32 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Imp to C Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO EPC's compilers were in IMP for years. When we had to switch to C I wrote a translator[in IMP]. Translation was essentially complete if 1) Routines were not nested with in routines. 2) No dynamic arrays or C was extended to handle VLarrays. 3) No string resolution. I am trying to locate the source but it is in IMP and routines are deeply nested. I never tried to get it to translate itself to C. The procedure was. a) Denest routines and change string resolution to a routine call b) rebuild compiler and test it to be sure it still works c) translate it and put the messy output through a formating program d) Build the C version Peter ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-151-1014647146-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 08:18:03 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA27633 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:17:56 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-151-1014647146-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Feb 2002 14:25:46 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 25 Feb 2002 14:25:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 92049 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 14:25:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Feb 2002 14:25:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 14:25:44 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id IAA27611; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:17:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202251417.IAA27611@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:17:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Imp to C Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > EPC's compilers were in IMP for years. When we had to switch to C > I wrote a translator[in IMP]. Translation was essentially complete > if > 1) Routines were not nested with in routines. This can now be done using GCC as a target because GCC has a non-standard extension to handle nested routines. When they added the Pascal front-end to GCC, they made modifications to the back end to support nested procedures, so some bright spark decided to put them into C as well! > 2) No dynamic arrays or C was extended to handle VLarrays. Dynamic arrays are relatively easy even in standard C as long as you don't mind losing array bound checks, and can insert extra code at every return to free them from the heap, eg %integerarray a(lower:upper) a(15) = 100 %return translates to int *a = malloc((upper-lower+1) * sizeof(int)); a = a - lower; a[15] = 100; { a = a + lower; free(a); return;} /* or a copy of lower saved earlier, if lower is not const) */ > 3) No string resolution. Shouldn't be a problem translating s -> s2.("...").s2 into calls to a procedure resolve() - BUT the big question is do you try to translate into C idiom (nul terminated strings) or do you guarantee portability by preserving imp strings, with the preceding length byte. This is a design decision I haven't settled on yet myself. For instance could we fake it like so? int charno(char *s, int i) { if (i == 0) return (strlen(s)); else return s[i-1]; } The %map would have to be split into a reader and a writer rather than the correct implementation of a %map which is to indirect through a function call returning a pointer, eg %integermap fred %result == a(i) %end fred = fred + 1 translates to int *fred(void) { return &a[i]; } (*fred()) = (*fred()) + 1; > I am trying to locate the source but it is in IMP and routines > are deeply nested. I never tried to get it to translate itself to C. I'm game! I'll do it by hand if need be! > The procedure was. > a) Denest routines and change string resolution to a routine call Ok, so you _were_ handling string resolution... so what was the problem exactly that you referred to above? When de-nesting, how did you handle references to auto variables in the enclosing procedure? (clearly owns are easy and can be ex-bedded) > b) rebuild compiler and test it to be sure it still works Do you have some imp regression tests? > c) translate it and put the messy output through a formating program :-) Snap! I tried making the output pretty at first and realised why reinvent the wheel - that's what indent is for. Even if indent does need a *lot* of parameter tweaking before it looks acceptable. > d) Build the C version > > Peter The awkward language feature you didn't mention was imp's %switch. This does not map well to C's case labels. However another GCC extension (created at the same time as the nested procedures, not by coincidence) is to allow arrays of label addresses, such as: %switch s(0:2) -> s(i) s(0): sheila s(1): fred s(2): jim translates to static void *s[(2)-(0)+1] = { &&s0, &&s1, &&s2 /* non-standard feature */ }; goto *s[i]; s0: sheila(); s1: fred(); s2: jim(); The big advantage of these labels being they can be placed anywhere as in imp, not just a structured block as in pascal. Finally there is the translation of signals and events. I'm not sure yet of the best way to do that. -- So, may I ask a few more questions for the web site: which targets did you have working Imp compilers for? What can you say about producing a front-end to interface to Robertson's I-Code - did ICode have all the support you needed for Fortran or did it have to be extended? I.e. how language-independent was it at that time? Were you able to take advantage of all the Imp77 code generators with your first pass or did you only ever use it for one architecture? (It was commissioned for the transputer originally, right?) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-152-1014679932-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 17:26:32 2002 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA15643 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:26:31 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-152-1014679932-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Feb 2002 23:32:12 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 25 Feb 2002 23:32:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 27013 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:32:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Feb 2002 23:32:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:32:11 -0000 Received: from pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:32:10 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [80.195.42.180]) by pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:32:10 +0000 Message-ID: <002101c1be55$29cec980$b42ac350@jgh2> To: References: <200202251417.IAA27611@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:35:52 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] PDP9/15 ECCE Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Rainer Thonnes has painstakingly typed in one of the earliest versions of > Ecce we've been able to find so far, from a listing he thinks comes from 1975. > > Not only has Rainer restored the original perfectly, he has also made some > minimal changes (in line with the original) to remove PDP9/15 dependencies > so that the code could be compiled by any later Imp compiler on any system. Obviously someone with an Imp compiler was going to try this ..... Not bad - indeed very impressive without a compiler/syntax checker, but the source needs the following fixes: a) Numeric labels are not allowed - (IMP # BASIC) b) READ CH and PRINT CH need to be READ SYMBOL and PRINT SYMBOL c) %monitor needs replaced by %signal (or loose the "20") The details are given below. I fixed these. There are two occurrences of labels 1 and 2, and I think I choose the correct points to jump to. The editor starts by reading the file from the terminal!!!!? I seem to recall that the PDP9/15 OS automatically opened three input and three output streams based on what was present on the command line. Most non-CS systems (EMAS, VMS, Solaris) require explicit file opens. It then does run as I remember ECCE from the mid-1970s, except the %c command failed, I had to abort the program to exit. I think that I will stick with VECCE..... best regards Gordon Hughes, CAD/DP Manager, jgh@cgi.co.uk Compugraphics International Ltd., www.cgi.co.uk % imp e915b.imp * 102 not declared ^read ch(sym) * 121 not declared ^read ch(pend) * 150 form %monitor ^20 %if p2 = top * 152 not declared ^print ch(k) * 176 not declared %if fp # bot %then ^read ch(k) %else k = nl * 227 not a location ^1: pp1 = pp * 228 form ->^3 %unless fp = ms %and (code='F' %or code='U') * 230 not a location ^2: load pp(k) * 231 not a location ^3: ->10 %if fp = lend * 233 form ->^2 %unless k = t1 * 235 not a location ^6: i = i+1 * 237 form ->^6 %if byte(i) = l * 238 form ->^2 %if l # 0 * 241 not a location ^10: lim = lim-128 * 247 form ->^1 * 264 not a location ^1: prompt(">") * 265 form ->^1 %if type = 1 * 278 not a location ^2: i = type&15 * 288 form ->^1 %if sym = nl * 292 form ->^1 * 301 not a location ^61: read sym * 306 form ->^61 * 314 form ->^81 * 316 form ->^100 %unless sym = '-' * 318 not a location ^81: read item * 319 form ->^101 * 325 not a location ^100:->er1 %if type = 3 * 326 not a location ^101:read item %if type = 0 * 330 form ->^121 * 334 not a location ^121:text = chain * 338 form ->^2 %unless type = 1 * 359 not a location ^10: ->1 %if sym<32 * 361 form ->^10 * 366 form ->^99 %if code = 0 * 402 not a location ^99: ->1 %if sym # nl * 403 form ->^1 %unless (mon>=0 %and print1#lend) %or (mon>0 %and print2#fp+pp) * 405 form ->^1 * 466 not declared ^read ch(i) * 471 not declared ^read ch(i) * 508 form ->^99 * 519 not declared ^print ch(byte(top)) e915b.imp: program contains 41 faults [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-153-1014680122-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 17:27:32 2002 Received: from n32.groups.yahoo.com (n32.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.82]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA15670 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:27:31 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-153-1014680122-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n32.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Feb 2002 23:35:23 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 25 Feb 2002 23:35:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 93486 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:35:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Feb 2002 23:35:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.121) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:35:22 -0000 Received: from pcow035o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:35:21 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [80.195.42.180]) by pcow035o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:35:21 +0000 Message-ID: <002a01c1be55$9bd4d9c0$b42ac350@jgh2> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:39:03 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Imp to C Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I am trying to locate the source but it is in IMP and routines > are deeply nested. I never tried to get it to translate itself to C. I am happy to compile it and try running any conversions which the project wish to try if you can find the source. best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-154-1014686718-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 19:17:30 2002 Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18709 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:17:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-154-1014686718-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2002 01:11:43 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 26 Feb 2002 01:25:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 43780 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 01:25:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2002 01:25:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 01:25:17 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id TAA18679 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:16:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202260116.TAA18679@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:16:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] This weekend's uploads - thanks, Harry Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Two uploads this weekend, both from Harry Whitfield: 1) a contemporaneous translation of Strachey's GPM to Imp. See the entry in the web page for comments. [Harry: I wasn't quite sure of the date of this. Was it originally ported around the time of the original ('65) and later tweaked a little for Imp77, or did you port it atound 1977 or afterwards. The imp source definitely uses Imp77 features, but I can't tell if they were added later. 2) because the listings were too poor to scan, he's typed in the Version K (ISO character set) grammar for Atlas Autocode! It's an interesting read - AA was clearly very much a parent to Imp. Or put another way, Imp really is AA with some mods; it's hard to claim that imp is a new language. (Far different from the relationship of C to BCPL for example) Some evening when I have nothing better to do I'll provide a syntax checker using this grammar, for general amusement (esp. if I put it on a web page so you can type in short sequences to play with) G ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-155-1014701420-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 23:22:28 2002 Received: from n28.groups.yahoo.com (n28.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.78]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA25085 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:22:28 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-155-1014701420-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n28.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2002 05:30:20 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 26 Feb 2002 05:30:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 70922 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 05:30:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2002 05:30:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 05:30:19 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA25057 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:21:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200202260521.XAA25057@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:21:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Computer Journal articles re-processed Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO The old EMAS papers which we found at the British Computer Journal site were in TIFF format and about 1Mb each on average. I have run them all through Photoshop (manually - wish I knew how to write macros! - must actually _read_ those books I bought some year) and converted them to JPEG. Average size is now 100K +/- 50K - an average of about 8:1 compression. Also I took the chance to do some photoshop filtering of some of the typed listings, which were almost unreadable. They've come up quite well under contrast enhancement. Here's the URL. If you weren't able to read them before, have another go now: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/docs/ Also I've added a few of Harry Whitfield's computer science class notes - he used EMAS heavily to draw on for operating system examples (and indeed who wouldn't?) and they're a reasonably good HTML summary of some of the BCJ papers which are otherwise only available as images. At least this way the search engines will start picking them, up. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-156-1014723564-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 05:31:31 2002 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com (n9.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.59]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA00981 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:31:30 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-156-1014723564-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n9.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2002 11:39:24 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 26 Feb 2002 11:39:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 21877 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 11:39:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2002 11:39:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.229.35) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 11:39:22 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1QBctD26070 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:38:55 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.170] (black11.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.140]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10520 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:38:53 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200202260116.TAA18679@admin.vt.com> References: <200202260116.TAA18679@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:34:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] This weekend's uploads - thanks, Harry Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >Two uploads this weekend, both from Harry Whitfield: > >1) a contemporaneous translation of Strachey's GPM to Imp. See the entry >in the web page for comments. > >[Harry: I wasn't quite sure of the date of this. Was it originally ported >around the time of the original ('65) and later tweaked a little for >Imp77, or did you port it atound 1977 or afterwards. The imp source >definitely uses Imp77 features, but I can't tell if they were added later. I can't really remember. It was possibly translated (by me) from the original to Algol 60 and then to Imp. I remember using it in lectures while I was at Groningen, but that covers the 1972-1979 period. We had a lot of contact with Edinburgh while I was at Groningen. We had various versions of SKIMP and Imp on the PDP15, PDP11 and even on the CDC 6600 and Cyber. The first "transfer" was of ecce. We translated ecce to Algol 60 and ran it for the first time on 23 January 1973. It worked at our first attempt! We later used Imp on Deimos to build GUTS, and then ported Imp onto GUTS. GUTS was a mini version of EMAS on the PDP11/40. We also ported Imp onto Unix. Some day, I'll go through the fairly detailed diaries I kept of my time at Groningen and see what they say. >2) because the listings were too poor to scan, he's typed in the Version K >(ISO character set) grammar for Atlas Autocode! It's an interesting >read - AA was clearly very much a parent to Imp. Or put another way, >Imp really is AA with some mods; it's hard to claim that imp is a new >language. (Far different from the relationship of C to BCPL for example) As I recall, the main addition was that of records (data structures) and operators for bit twiddling, which we wanted in a system development language. Imp also had to match the architecture of System 4 (IBM 360) with bytes, shorts and words. The design of Imp was done in the summer/autumn of 1966, mainly by David Rees. There was a presentation on Imp in January 1967. David can correct me and/or fill in the details, if I'm wrong about this. >Some evening when I have nothing better to do I'll provide a syntax checker >using this grammar, for general amusement (esp. if I put it on a web page >so you can type in short sequences to play with) > >G Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-157-1014729841-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 07:16:08 2002 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA03494 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:16:07 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-157-1014729841-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2002 13:24:01 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 26 Feb 2002 13:24:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 95881 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 13:24:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2002 13:24:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 13:23:59 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1QDNia08974 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:23:44 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.144] (black15.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.144]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03970 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:23:43 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (Unverified) Message-Id: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:02:40 +0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Early IMP documents. Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO EMAS Project minutes list the following documents relating to IMP: EMAP/41.5/0005 Implementation Language Specification (5.10.66), EMAP/41.5/0008 Programming in IMP (1.11.66), EMAP/41.5/0011 IMP Reference Manual ( May 66 ?), EMAP/41.5/0018 IMP Reference Manual (Revised March 1968). I don't have any of these, but surely there must still be copies in Edinburgh. Does CS or ERCC have a document archive? Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-158-1014737044-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 09:16:16 2002 Received: from n28.groups.yahoo.com (n28.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.78]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA07068 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:16:15 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-158-1014737044-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n28.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2002 15:24:09 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 26 Feb 2002 15:24:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 62721 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 15:24:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2002 15:24:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 15:24:03 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-76-232-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.76.232] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16fjSL-0002pv-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:23:54 -0500 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:24:00 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Early IMP documents. Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >> I don't have any of these, but surely there must still be copies in Edinburgh. << If they were officually published, there should be copies at the National Libraries in Edinburgh and London. Mike. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-159-1014742373-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 10:44:59 2002 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA09878 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:44:59 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-159-1014742373-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.163] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2002 16:52:53 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 26 Feb 2002 16:52:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 77654 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 16:52:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2002 16:52:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 16:52:50 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1QGqCa09772 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:52:12 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.178] (black49.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.178]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23105 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:52:10 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-MailScanner: Successfully scanned From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:52:06 +0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Early IMP documents. Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > >> I don't have any of these, but surely there must still be copies in >Edinburgh. << > >If they were officually published, there should be copies at the National >Libraries in Edinburgh and London. I don't think they were ever that public. However, they were official project documents and lots of copies would have been circulated both in Edinburgh and in EELM/ICL. I would expect that the then ERCC and CS Department would have filed copies. At the end of the externally supported project, CS was asked to keep copies of the system at that time. Whether such tapes still exist, and whether they would still be readable is another matter. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-160-1014955164-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 21:51:22 2002 Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA14353 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:51:21 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-160-1014955164-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n27.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 03:59:25 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 03:59:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 21166 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 03:59:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 03:59:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.52) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 03:59:23 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.90] by n2.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 03:59:22 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 03:59:21 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some more uploads, and a hint of things to come Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I found a couple of programs: compare: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/compare/compare.imp.html and word: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/word/word.imp.html The compare is the slightly later 'tidied up' version for Imp77. I can remember earlier versions that weren't quite so pretty. Word is Alex Deas' English grammar checker. I found a few lesser odds and ends not worth mentioning. However these are all trivial in comparison to what's coming next. Expect some major uploads in the next few weeks. I'm not mentioning details yet as we're awaiting copyright clearance in a couple of cases, but I hope it will be forthcoming and we'll have a *big surprise* for everyone. It's becausae I've been working on one of these two projects myself that i haven't posted anything for a couple of days, however unlike in the past silence means quite the opposite from a lack of news! G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-161-1015121842-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 20:09:16 2002 Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA19086 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:09:16 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-161-1015121842-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n35.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2002 02:17:22 -0000 X-Sender: BLAINg@windows.microsoft.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 3 Mar 2002 02:17:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 94695 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2002 02:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2002 02:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.microsoft.com) (131.107.3.124) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2002 02:17:21 -0000 Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:17:21 -0800 Received: from 157.54.6.150 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:16:20 -0800 Received: from red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.102]) by inet-hub-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:16:20 -0800 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:16:20 -0800 Received: from win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.52]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3588.0); Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:14:30 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6157.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <4AEE3169443CDD4796CA8A00B02191CD047CB18F@win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: My EMAS years and bits and pieces I still have Thread-Index: AcHCWScWHSCa5XgGQuW2z8hy0UQoFQ== To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2002 02:14:30.0901 (UTC) FILETIME=[27390250:01C1C259] From: "Bill Laing" X-Yahoo-Profile: blaingfeb MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:14:30 -0800 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] My EMAS years and bits and pieces I still have Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO This is a update on my EMAS years and the bits and pieces I still have. I started with the ERCCin late 1974 (I think) and left in 1981 to join DEC. Previous to that I worked in the Medical Computer Group with Jeff Tansley, Walter Lutz, and Brian Gilmore (another piece of Edinburgh computing history). On EMAS I worked on the following things. 1. I took over and rewrote the backup and archiving system that Alex Wight originally wrote. 2. I looked at the dumps every morning if EMAS A or B on the 4-75s had crashed. I think I also maintained the dump analysis program. Daily I had to decide whether the crash was hardware or software and if I thought it was software I then had to go and see Peter Stephens and see if he agreed that it wasa bug. I got very good standing in Peter's office until he could ignore me no longer. 3. I then re(wrote) the VOLUMS process which ended up being the same code on EMAS2900. We had an integrated Archiving system between EMAS A & B and EMAS2900 which made migration of user accounts easy. You archived your files on the 4-75 and restored them on the 2900. 4. I think I started the SPOOLR process but that was mostly done by John Henshall and some of it may have been done by Sandy Shaw. 5. Nick Shelness wrote the initial version of the EMAS2900 Comms Controller which I took over including writing a number of what we now call device drivers but were then called Adapters for the Line Printer, Card Reader, Card Punch, and Front End Processor. 6. I also did some work on SMP helping Peter Stephens including trips to Southampton when we got access to their 2972 multiprocessor from Friday midnight until 6AM on Saturday morning. Although on our first trip I think we used 5 minutes as the tape only twitched when we tried to IPL. On the second trip I remember having a supervisor listing and the diagnostic dump on the hotel room floor at 3AM. There was a simple synchronization bug that we founf but were frustrated that we could not fix. I think on the 3rd trip the system ran and we could even recompile it. 7. I also used to travel to Kent to help Bob Eager get EMAS up on the 2960 there. Looking back the things that still seem very impressive are source level diagnostics in the supervisor, the amount of instrumentation for performance analysis, mapping all files into virtual memory including the file system data structures, the Comms Controller using virtual memory for all device I/O, the archiving system, the supervisor structure with the global and local controllers (long before microkernels and it really was micro), the clean interfaces between major components, DIRECTOR, SUPERVISOR, VOLUMS, SPOOLR, SUBSYS. so that they could each be replaced independently. Actually running a live service while doing continual development with 30 minutes to test and debug each day. Adding to the daily strain for Andrew McKendrick. Bits and pieces I have. (Unfortunately it is all on paper at the moment.) 1. A 2900 PLI (architecture spec of the 2900 from 1978) which I probably should have returned to ICL. If anyone ever wants to emulate a 2900 it would be useful. 2. A listing of Emas supervisor SUP29IS dated 15/12/81. 3. A listing of the Comms Controller COMMS51S dated 15/12/81. This includes Card Reader, Line Printer, Card Punch, and MK1 Front End Processor adapters. 4. A low level description of the 4/75 from 1/11/66 that describes interrupts, register formats (including the bit you had to set that does not seem to be documented except in a hand written note to gang the store keys together into pages, each key covered 512 bytes but pages were 4K bytes), virtual memory, page tables etc. Again if someone ever wanted to emulate a 4-75 this would be useful. 5. A description I wrote of how Backup and Archiving worked. 6. EMAS Reports 1-7 and "An Experiment in Doing it Again". 7. A number of CS reports on SKIMP, IMP-77, ECCE, ERTE, and Colin Adam's PhD which has a fairly detailed description of EMAS-4/75. 8. A paper I wrote on the Communications Controller in EMAS2900 that was only published in an inter university colloquium series. It might be the only copy in existence! If anyone would find any of the above useful let me know. /Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-162-1015138531-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 00:47:20 2002 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com (n25.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA25584 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 00:47:20 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-162-1015138531-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2002 06:53:25 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 3 Mar 2002 06:55:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 42804 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2002 06:55:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2002 06:55:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2002 06:55:30 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id AAA25572 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 00:46:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203030646.AAA25572@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 00:46:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] IMP to C translator from Peter Stephens! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Peter Stephens has given us his Imp to C translator which he wrote while at EPC. This is a monumental piece of software incorporating most of a full Imp80 compiler. It has a few restrictions which we can go into later, but they don't significantly affect the import of this great program. As a demonstration, I have already translated the PDP9/15-style ECCE which Rainer created a week or two ago, and which I'd prototyped a C implementation for by hand. The machine-generated version is just as readable as the hand-converted one. An excellent piece of work, Pete! Imp: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915c.i.html %routine unchain %cycle text = chain; %return %if text = 0 chain = c(text+1); c(text+1) = ci %repeat %until c(text) = 'X' %end Hand translation: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915b.imp.html void unchain(void) { do { text = chain; if (text == 0) return; chain = c[text+1]; c[text+1] = ci; } while (!(c[text] == 'X')); } Machine translation: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/e915c.c.html static void unchain () { do { text = chain; if (text == 0) return; chain = c[text + 1 - (cbase)]; c[text + 1 - (cbase)] = ci; } while (!(c[text - (cbase)] == 'X')); } I have not yet put the translator itself online, for a couple of reasons. 1) I'm not 100% sure he's given explicit copyright clearance to put it online yet, or if we have to post a licence or disclaimer of any sort. If there's a problem with his company (unlikely) we may only put a binary online. 2) I did mention some limitations. This program was written primarily to translate the Imp80 compiler itself, and although it implements almost all of the language, there are some major restrictions on the format of the input - basically no %begin/%endofprogram blocks with enclosed routines; it works best on collections of external routines ending in %endoffile. Also Imp I/O support is very minimal and makes porting most real programs rather difficult. I'ld like to do some maintenance on it first before releasing it, and I need Peter's permission to release it with changes and an upgraded support library. But this is definitely going to happen and will be a really useful tool for Edinburgh people with old Imp source that they want to run again. Thank you, Peter Stephens! G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-163-1015142239-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 01:49:11 2002 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com (n25.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27046 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 01:49:10 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-163-1015142239-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2002 07:55:13 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 3 Mar 2002 07:57:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 63630 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2002 07:57:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2002 07:57:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2002 07:57:16 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0489.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.49.233]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g237vAj29310 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:57:11 GMT Message-Id: <200203030757.g237vAj29310@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c81d74fa; 03 Mar 02 07:57:03 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:57:02 GMT Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] My EMAS years and bits and pieces I still have Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from "Bill Laing" Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:14:30 -0800 > 1. A 2900 PLI (architecture spec of the 2900 from 1978) which I > probably should have returned to ICL. If anyone ever wants to emulate a > 2900 it would be useful. Yes, I have one of about the same vintage. > 2. A listing of Emas supervisor SUP29IS dated 15/12/81. I have a 1986 version....as from next weekend I will have sufficient time to go searching. > 3. A listing of the Comms Controller COMMS51S dated 15/12/81. This > includes Card Reader, Line Printer, Card Punch, and MK1 Front End > Processor adapters. Ditto for 1986. I did some local mods for paper accounting. > 8. A paper I wrote on the Communications Controller in EMAS2900 that > was only published in an inter university colloquium series. It might > be the only copy in existence! Interesting. I would find that particularly interesting. Did you say where you are now, Bill? Last time I saw you was at Warwick in about 1990! Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-164-1015170200-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 09:35:08 2002 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA04861 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:35:07 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-164-1015170200-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2002 15:43:20 -0000 X-Sender: BLAINg@windows.microsoft.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 3 Mar 2002 15:43:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 32487 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2002 15:43:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2002 15:43:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.microsoft.com) (131.107.3.124) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2002 15:43:19 -0000 Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:42:14 -0800 Received: from 157.54.6.150 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:42:17 -0800 Received: from red-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by inet-hub-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:42:17 -0800 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:42:17 -0800 Received: from win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.52]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3588.0); Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:40:28 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6157.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <4AEE3169443CDD4796CA8A00B02191CD047CB194@win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <4AEE3169443CDD4796CA8A00B02191CD047CB194@win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: [ed-comp-hist] My EMAS years and bits and pieces I still have Thread-Index: AcHCiK/OHm323MMqRqCKsexhKfffygAQLZBB To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2002 15:40:28.0120 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE5F0D80:01C1C2C9] From: "Bill Laing" X-Yahoo-Profile: blaingfeb MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:40:28 -0800 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] My EMAS years and bits and pieces I still have Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I'm now at Microsoft in Redmond. I manage various bits of the Windows Server product, IIS, clustering, Datacenter Edition, some other stuff. I remember you adding the "consumables accounting" I was always so proud that I never looked at the bytes being sent to the printer and you wrote a lot of optimized code to count the lines and pages! It is nice to be in touch again. /Bill -----Original Message----- From: Bob Eager [mailto:rde@tavi.co.uk] Sent: Sat 3/2/2002 11:57 PM To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] My EMAS years and bits and pieces I still have ** Reply to note from "Bill Laing" Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:14:30 -0800 > 1. A 2900 PLI (architecture spec of the 2900 from 1978) which I > probably should have returned to ICL. If anyone ever wants to emulate a > 2900 it would be useful. Yes, I have one of about the same vintage. > 2. A listing of Emas supervisor SUP29IS dated 15/12/81. I have a 1986 version....as from next weekend I will have sufficient time to go searching. > 3. A listing of the Comms Controller COMMS51S dated 15/12/81. This > includes Card Reader, Line Printer, Card Punch, and MK1 Front End > Processor adapters. Ditto for 1986. I did some local mods for paper accounting. > 8. A paper I wrote on the Communications Controller in EMAS2900 that > was only published in an inter university colloquium series. It might > be the only copy in existence! Interesting. I would find that particularly interesting. Did you say where you are now, Bill? Last time I saw you was at Warwick in about 1990! Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-165-1015172137-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 10:07:25 2002 Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA05684 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:07:25 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-165-1015172137-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n27.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2002 16:15:37 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 3 Mar 2002 16:15:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 13515 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2002 16:14:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2002 16:14:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2002 16:14:21 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0505.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.49.249]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g23GEJp20931 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:14:19 GMT Message-Id: <200203031614.g23GEJp20931@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c824b7ca; 03 Mar 02 16:12:45 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:12:44 GMT Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] My EMAS years and bits and pieces I still have Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from "Bill Laing" Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:40:28 -0800 > I remember you adding the "consumables accounting" I was always so proud > that I never looked at the bytes being sent to the printer and you wrote > a lot of optimized code to count the lines and pages! The funniest thing is...it was a political decision. We'd had consumables accounting prior to EMAS and we had to have it again. No-one ever looked at the numbers...but users noticeably restrained themselves once they saw the counts appearing on the last page! Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-166-1015198778-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 17:31:25 2002 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com (n25.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA16121 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:31:25 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-166-1015198778-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2002 23:37:32 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 3 Mar 2002 23:39:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 11783 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2002 23:39:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2002 23:39:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2002 23:39:37 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA16077 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:30:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203032330.RAA16077@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:30:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] The *ORIGINAL* Ecce... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hamish has just now uploaded the *original* PDP8 Ecce written in assembler. He re-created it by typing it in from an assembly code listing file. Just to be sure he got it right - being Hamish - he also wrote a PDP8 assembler so he could compare the generated binary with that in the original listing! So we can be 100% sure the code is correct, with the possibility of typos being restricted only to comments (and they look pretty damn good to me). Any modern Ecce user would feel immediately at home using this version. The source is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/ECCEPDP8.TXT This is a really interesting program, because it shows that Ecce was created fully-formed. It has *all* the features that the PDP9/15 Imp version has. It's quite a masterpiece of tight coding. It took me several read-throughs to convince myself that it did indeed implement the full set of Ecce commands (excepting contexts and case flipping which made no sense on a 6-bit character set paper-tape machine). Thank you, Hamish, for your time in re-creating this historical source file. It's an interesting question in epistemology whether a re-entered file that is identical to the original file *is* the original file, from a historical point of view. It's a much tougher question than whether a restored painting is the original painting... I will soon put up a tweaked Ecce guide which more closely matches the PDP8 version than any of the current manuals do. However this is a new document, not a recreation. I intend to offer a copy of PDP8 Ecce and the manual to the various sites which preserve and run PDP8s both in hardware and emulation. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-167-1015199023-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 17:35:29 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA16207 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:35:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-167-1015199023-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2002 23:43:43 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 3 Mar 2002 23:43:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 27120 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2002 23:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2002 23:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2002 23:43:42 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0299.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.49.43]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g23Nhdp23243 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 23:43:40 GMT Message-Id: <200203032343.g23Nhdp23243@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c82b526a; 03 Mar 02 23:43:35 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 23:43:33 GMT Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] The *ORIGINAL* Ecce... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:30:52 -0600 (CST) > Hamish has just now uploaded the *original* PDP8 Ecce written in > assembler. Over Easter I shall be putting up a site with PDP-8 emulators for most common PC platforms, so people will be able to try it out! I was doing this anyway... Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-168-1015512952-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 08:47:41 2002 Received: from n5.groups.yahoo.com (n5.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.55]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA27252 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:47:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-168-1015512952-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n5.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Mar 2002 14:55:54 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 7 Mar 2002 14:55:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 7012 invoked from network); 7 Mar 2002 14:54:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Mar 2002 14:54:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Mar 2002 14:54:42 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.4]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id OAA15054 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:54:40 GMT Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g27EseM07577 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:54:40 GMT Message-Id: <200203071454.g27EseM07577@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20011219 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:54:40 +0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] CS networks Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I'm giving the CS3 comms course "guest lecture" again this year on how and why the CS network got to be the way it is. You can find the slides and notes at . Comments will be considered for next year's version... -- Dr George D M Ross, Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-169-1015879436-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 14:35:14 2002 Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com (n23.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.73]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28923 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:35:13 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-169-1015879436-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Mar 2002 20:43:56 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 11 Mar 2002 20:43:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 29896 invoked from network); 11 Mar 2002 20:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Mar 2002 20:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 2002 20:34:57 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA28613 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:25:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203112025.OAA28613@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:25:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Emas "EDIT" command - for Unix! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO For those of you who've watched all the ECCE versions being posted but have said "yeah, fine, but I still prefer the EMAS "EDIT" command..." have we got a surprise for you! Courtesy of Peter Stephens, you can find the C source of his port of the Emas editor at: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/edit/ I've compiled it under Linux and as promised it worked perfectly! Here are his notes: Graham, Attached is the final version of the EMAS editor. It was cunningly designed by David Rees using a list processing method so that very few pages needed to be written out. Most commands used just 1 page of stack and 1 page of list processing cells. The input file is never touched until the final E command It was improved by Nick Shelness who added the useful S & U commands and then by me who added the layout,justify and spell checker. edit-dict is the fast one way dictionary which edit expects to find in /usr/local/lib The imp has been converted to C. I have used this when working with IMP ever since and still use it today. Peter (PS I note that Tony Gibbons also was involved in this according to a comment in the file - Graham) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-170-1015885100-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 16:09:39 2002 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01908 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:09:38 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-170-1015885100-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Mar 2002 21:57:12 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 11 Mar 2002 22:18:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 77328 invoked from network); 11 Mar 2002 21:37:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Mar 2002 21:37:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 2002 21:37:20 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0737.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.50.225]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g2BLbHU12440 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:37:17 GMT Message-Id: <200203112137.g2BLbHU12440@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c8d2300a; 11 Mar 02 21:34:56 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:34:55 GMT Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Emas "EDIT" command - for Unix! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:25:43 -0600 (CST) > For those of you who've watched all the ECCE versions being posted > but have said "yeah, fine, but I still prefer the EMAS "EDIT" command..." > have we got a surprise for you! Yesss! > Courtesy of Peter Stephens, you can find the C source of his port of > the Emas editor at: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/edit/ (grab) > Attached is the final version of the EMAS editor. It was cunningly designed > by David Rees using a list processing method so that very few pages > needed to be written out. Most commands used just 1 page of stack and 1 page > of list processing cells. The input file is never touched until the final E > command I love explaining this to people; they are fascinated once they grasp the idea. > commands and then by me who added the layout,justify and spell > checker. I remember the idle conversation with Peter where I mentioned the spell check algorithm to him (I had been looking at them because I'd been writing a standalone spell checker). As I recall he had finished the spell checker within a few hours. > edit-dict is the fast one way dictionary which edit expects to > find in /usr/local/lib Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-171-1015927609-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 04:01:37 2002 Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com (n23.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.73]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA23235 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 04:01:24 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-171-1015927609-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Mar 2002 10:06:49 -0000 X-Sender: Pete.Stephens@analog.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 12 Mar 2002 10:06:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 53101 invoked from network); 12 Mar 2002 10:06:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Mar 2002 10:06:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nwd2mime2.analog.com) (137.71.25.114) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Mar 2002 10:06:48 -0000 Received: from nwd2gtw1 (unverified) by nwd2mime2.analog.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 05:06:39 -0500 Received: from edin_exm1.analog.com ([137.71.117.15]) by nwd2mhb2.analog.com with ESMTP (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.7.1) id FAA02890 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 05:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by EDIN_EXM1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1LNQW94Q>; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:01:32 -0000 Message-ID: To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: "Stephens, Pete" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:01:31 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Emas "EDIT" command - for Unix! More History Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > > > For those of you who've watched all the ECCE versions being posted > but have said "yeah, fine, but I still prefer the EMAS "EDIT" > command..." > have we got a surprise for you! > > Courtesy of Peter Stephens, you can find the C source of his port of > the Emas editor at: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/edit/ > > I've compiled it under Linux and as promised it worked perfectly! > > Attached is the final version of the EMAS editor. It was > cunningly designed > by David Rees using a list processing method so that very few pages > needed to be written out. Most commands used just 1 page of > stack and 1 page > of list processing cells. The input file is never touched > until the final E > command > > It was improved by Nick Shelness who added the useful S & U > commands and then by me who added the layout,justify and spell > checker. To complete the credits both Roderick McLeod and Tony Gibbons maintained the standard subsystem for some years and probably contributed to EDIT. One of them added the I [Insert a complete file] and also the F [extract part of the edited file into a different file] > > edit-dict is the fast one way dictionary which edit expects to > find in /usr/local/lib I fear edit-dict is frozen for all time; I have lost the program that built it though I still have the list of words I used when creating it. There is just a chance thet Bob Eager may have a copy. However the X followed by Y sequence[Move to the next misspelt word and then confirm it is correct] builds a local additional edit-dict to cope with new jargon words, acronyms etc. > > The imp has been converted to C. I have used this when > working with IMP > ever since and still use it today. > > Peter > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-172-1015929246-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 04:25:22 2002 Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA24588 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 04:25:21 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-172-1015929246-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n4.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Mar 2002 10:34:06 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 12 Mar 2002 10:34:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 13975 invoked from network); 12 Mar 2002 10:34:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Mar 2002 10:34:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Mar 2002 10:34:04 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id EAA24526 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 04:24:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203121024.EAA24526@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 04:24:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Emas "EDIT" command - for Unix! More History Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I fear edit-dict is frozen for all time; I have lost the program > that built it though I still have the list of words I used when creating it. > There is just a chance thet Bob Eager may have a copy. > > However the X followed by Y sequence[Move to the next misspelt word > and then confirm it is correct] builds a local additional edit-dict to cope > with new jargon words, acronyms etc. So are you saying that editing a word list file with no existing local edit-dict and entering the command: (XY)* should build a new local dict which can then be moved to the system area? It looks from the code that the formats of the local dict and the system dict are the same. Hey wait a minute, why am I asking... I can try it and see... ... 5 minutes later yep, that works :-) (the sys dict doesn't want the .dat extension by the way) G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-173-1015930482-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 04:48:39 2002 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA25575 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 04:48:38 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-173-1015930482-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Mar 2002 10:57:20 -0000 X-Sender: Pete.Stephens@analog.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 12 Mar 2002 10:54:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 47576 invoked from network); 12 Mar 2002 10:54:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Mar 2002 10:54:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nwd2mime2.analog.com) (137.71.25.114) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Mar 2002 10:54:41 -0000 Received: from nwd2gtw1 (unverified) by nwd2mime2.analog.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 05:54:44 -0500 Received: from edin_exm1.analog.com ([137.71.117.15]) by nwd2mhb2.analog.com with ESMTP (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.7.1) id FAA08450 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 05:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by EDIN_EXM1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1LNQW9XJ>; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:49:36 -0000 Message-ID: To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: "Stephens, Pete" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:49:35 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Emas "EDIT" command - for Unix! More History Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > > I fear edit-dict is frozen for all time; I have lost the program > > that built it though I still have the list of words I used > when creating it. > > There is just a chance thet Bob Eager may have a copy. > > > > However the X followed by Y sequence[Move to the next > misspelt word > > and then confirm it is correct] builds a local additional > edit-dict to cope > > with new jargon words, acronyms etc. > > So are you saying that editing a word list file with no existing local > edit-dict and entering the command: (XY)* > should build a new local dict which can then be moved to the > system area? > It looks from the code that the formats of the local dict and > the system dict > are the same. > > Hey wait a minute, why am I asking... I can try it and see... > > ... 5 minutes later > > yep, that works :-) (the sys dict doesn't want the .dat > extension by the way) > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com The local dict is much too small. To work the dictionary which is a bit list should have about 60% of the bit unset. If it is more dense than that there is too high a chance of random collections of letters being found correct. I had a small extract of edit that built the main dictionary more or less as you describe. Peter ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-174-1016040224-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 11:16:16 2002 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.53]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA22149 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:16:10 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-174-1016040224-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2002 17:24:59 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 13 Mar 2002 17:23:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 4623 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2002 17:22:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Mar 2002 17:22:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Mar 2002 17:22:33 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA21965; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:13:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203131713.LAA21965@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:13:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] uploads; and mailing list admin Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO The mailing list *may* be offline some time during the weekend for upgrades by Yahoo. So if your postings at the weekend don't get through, mail me instead. Peter Stephens has supplied us with an up to date formal grammar for Imp80 which is posted here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp/emcps.dat It's interesting to see how it is a direct descendant of the Atlas Autocode grammar posted a couple of weeks ago by Harry Whitfield. Who, not coincidentally, was the original author of this program: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp/newps.imp.html which as you can tell from the style was originally written in Atlas Autocode itself. A remarkably short and simple program for a parser generator. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-175-1016045637-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 12:48:33 2002 Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.83]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA26590 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:48:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-175-1016045637-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n33.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2002 18:57:18 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 13 Mar 2002 18:53:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 34784 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2002 18:53:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Mar 2002 18:53:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zetnet.co.uk) (194.247.47.48) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Mar 2002 18:53:55 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (bts-0801.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.51.33]) by tavi.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g2DIrq831582 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:53:52 GMT Message-Id: <200203131853.g2DIrq831582@zetnet.co.uk> Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3c8fa03ca; 13 Mar 02 18:53:48 GMT To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:53:47 GMT Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] uploads; and mailing list admin Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:13:12 -0600 (CST) > It's interesting to see how it is a direct descendant of the Atlas Autocode > grammar posted a couple of weeks ago by Harry Whitfield. > > Who, not coincidentally, was the original author of this program: > > http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp/newps.imp.html > > which as you can tell from the style was originally written in Atlas Autocode > itself. A remarkably short and simple program for a parser generator. And has been re-implemented in C by me! I am nearly at the end of a long hard term and will soon have time to sort out and upload this stuff. I did a newps, and a compress (message table generator) both in C, to generate the tables etc. for the C version of the IMP80 compiler (parser only so far). These will also generate IMP versions. Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-176-1016408518-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 17 17:32:58 2002 Received: from n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.71]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20870 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:32:57 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-176-1016408518-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2002 23:41:58 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 17 Mar 2002 23:41:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 45609 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2002 23:41:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Mar 2002 23:41:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 2002 23:41:57 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA20844; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:32:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203172332.RAA20844@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:32:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] More Imp hacking... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Not history related, just FYI: I wanted to understand Peter Stephen's Imp80 grammar which he uploaded last week (used in the Imp to C translator) so I converted it to run under the same parser generator that I used for Skimp. A simple syntax checker wasn't very interesting (esp with no error recovery yet) so to make it into an interesting program, I wrote code to walk the parse tree and output the source again - adding in appropriate indentation and formatting; i.e. something not unlike the old SOAP program. It's not 100% finished but even in its current incarnation it is very useful. If you're interested, it's here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/imp.e and if you want to build it yourself, all the related files are in that directory. Also some 'before and after' sample sources (pass?.*) Like the dog that can play chess but doesn't often win, it is not a remarkably good program; it's merely remarkable that it exists at all, ie I was very surprised that I could hack this up in one day - the hard work was done by the Imp80 grammar; the code to output the formatted source was trivial: for instance, the code to handle a "%cycle" is merely this: "cycle" { indent(ilev++); printf("%s %s", $1, "%cycle"); } The limitations of the code are explicitly listed in a comment at the head of the source file. The exercise was successful: having used the grammar in practise I now understand the parsing side of the ImpToC translator (and presumably the related Imp80 compilers) a whole lot better now. It has given me a good respect for some of the design decisions in the compiler, in particular the way that the grammar is actually rather loose and that certain combinations are checked for and rejected after parsing - this simplifies the grammar considerably and speeds up compilation. Also that type consistency is forced bottom-up rather than top-down - the phrase for a can return a real, a string, or an integer, and the phrase for an expression doesn't care what they are - the types are checked after parsing. It was surprising to see the string concatention operator "." alongside operators such as "<<" in the phrase for an . Again, this must remove a huge backtracking overhead from the parser and replace it with relatively cheap tests of the parse tree, and undoubtedly produced better error reporting. It's not how I would have written a compiler before looking at this source; I've always said that some programmers (certainly myself) learn better from reading real code than from books; I can say I've definitely learned some worthwhile lessons from reading Peter Stephen's code. Which is indeed one of the aims of this project. You *can* definitely still learn lessons from 30-yr old code. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-177-1016664170-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Mar 20 16:38:13 2002 Received: from n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.89]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA29531 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:38:12 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-177-1016664170-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Mar 2002 22:42:51 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 20 Mar 2002 22:42:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 47433 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2002 22:42:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Mar 2002 22:42:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 2002 22:42:49 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA29341 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:33:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203202233.QAA29341@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:33:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Anyone have an RK05 drive, or know where to find one? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Harry Whitfield and his students at Groeningen University in the Netherlands wrote a PDP11 operating system loosely based on Emas. Harry contacted his colleagues in the Netherlands but was unable to find a copy of GUTS still in existance over there. Some years ago he sent a copy to Edinburgh and Ian Young experimented with it on the Wave Power Project's PDP11. This copy is almost certainly the one that John Butler ended up with on an RK05 disk pack. As possibly the only copy in the world of this project, I think we ought to make a special effort to recover it. I can think of two ways: I know there are commercial companies in Britain who claim to read almost anything. If my experience with disk recovery people is anything to go by, they won't be cheap. Also it's a little easier to find volunteers to do this sort of thing over here in the states, but I happen to know that all imports to the US at the moment are being blasted by a strong e-beam sterilizer and it's liable to trash the disk. So... if possible, I'ld like to try finding someone in Britain who'll volunteer to read this disk, before we go to the hassle of looking for funding, which would quite drastically change the character of this project. Please let me know if you know where there's a working system that can read RK05 disk packs. Thanks Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-178-1017374047-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Mar 28 21:44:19 2002 Received: from n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.69]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA29990 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:44:19 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-178-1017374047-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2002 03:54:07 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 29 Mar 2002 03:54:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 48480 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2002 03:54:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2002 03:54:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Mar 2002 03:54:03 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA29974 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:43:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203290343.VAA29974@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:43:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some excellent news... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I received a letter today from Andrew McKendrick. Without going into detail at this point, let me just say it was *very* encouraging - I would go so far as to say even that I feel that the success of this project is pretty much now assured! So don't let a week or two of silence on the mailing list make you think that nothing is happening. In fact as well as the news above, I'm about to post two more updates which I think you'll appreciate. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-179-1017375024-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Mar 28 22:00:37 2002 Received: from n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.65]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00603 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:00:36 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-179-1017375024-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2002 04:10:25 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 29 Mar 2002 04:10:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 436 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2002 04:10:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2002 04:10:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Mar 2002 04:10:24 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA00588 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:00:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203290400.WAA00588@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:00:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Imp80 for intel! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO OK, I can't sit on my fingers any longer - I'm dying to let folks know about this... About a month ago, Peter Stephens told me that as well as the Imp to C converter, he had also written a proper Imp *compiler* for the 386/Pentium. Although it was written mainly to bootstrap their other compilers (such as Fortran) it is actually pretty much the full Imp language. In fact the only things I've found so far which are not complete are the lack of embedded machine code (not a big loss unless you plan to port an imp-written O/S to the PC :-) ) and some missing routines in the library (never implemented because they weren't ever used by the other compilers). Unfortunately the code was hosted on an uncommon variant of Unix so I've been working remotely with Peter to rebuild it on Linux. We've been having a few problems which we are working to track down - probably still a week or two away from being able to hand it out for general use, but it's definitely on its way! I'm betting a lot of ex Imp programmers are not going to be 'ex' for much longer! Thanks again, Peter Stephens. The guy has been a real hero these last few weeks, putting a lot of work into this project to get it ready for release before he retires in a month or so's time. We've obtained clearance both from his employer and from the University that it's OK to release this source (with only a few caveats, such as it is not for commercial use or resale - which is not going to be a problem for this project) FYI this is how Andrew McKendrick recently became aware of our project. He cleared the release with the Vice Principal. It's good to know that the University's 'Powers That Be' are encouraging our project. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-180-1017375343-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Mar 28 22:05:57 2002 Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.91]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00757 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:05:56 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-180-1017375343-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2002 04:15:43 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 29 Mar 2002 04:15:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 74778 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2002 04:15:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2002 04:15:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Mar 2002 04:15:43 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA00736 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:05:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203290405.WAA00736@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:05:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Mouses! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Chris Whitfield and Peter Robertson between them have written an enjoyable short history of Mouses (Moray Houses' operating system). I'm going out of town for a couple of days (back Monday) and I don't have time tonight to convert their M$ Word document to plain text to post here (or even HTML) but will hold it out as a teaser to encourage everyone to read their mail on Monday as I will post it as soon as I can when I return... They also will be releasing the source and binaries of Mouses some time (hopefully shortly) after we put the history document online. I really enjoyed reading their story and I'm sure you will too. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-181-1017391370-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Mar 29 02:33:55 2002 Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA05759 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 02:33:54 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-181-1017391370-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2002 08:42:50 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 29 Mar 2002 08:42:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 84682 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2002 08:42:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2002 08:42:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Mar 2002 08:42:48 -0000 Received: from pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:42:48 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [80.195.42.180]) by pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:42:47 +0000 Message-ID: <001301c1d6fe$b513de60$b42ac350@jgh2> To: References: <200203290400.WAA00588@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:49:58 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Imp80 for intel! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Graham/Peter, > About a month ago, Peter Stephens told me that as well as the Imp to C converter, > he had also written a proper Imp *compiler* for the 386/Pentium. A while back it was said that it was hoped to make the Imp to C convertor available to the project if Peter got permission to release it. Is this still likely to happen, or was permission denied? best regards Gordon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-182-1017391743-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Mar 29 02:46:49 2002 Received: from n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.73]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA06112 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 02:46:47 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-182-1017391743-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2002 08:49:03 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 29 Mar 2002 08:49:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 89471 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2002 08:49:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2002 08:49:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Mar 2002 08:49:01 -0000 Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:48:54 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [80.195.42.180]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:48:53 +0000 Message-ID: <001901c1d6ff$8f8a61e0$b42ac350@jgh2> To: References: <200203290405.WAA00736@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:56:05 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Mouses! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > They also will be releasing the source and binaries of Mouses some > time (hopefully shortly) after we put the history document online. Just to let everyone know a couple of things, relating to this: a) I have written a command to allow a MOUSES archive tape to be loaded on to VMS retaining the file system hierarchy and names. So if anyone else has any MOUSES archive tapes - they are readable! b) The half inch tapes which I read for Peter/Chris were from 1982 and read with no errors, so this should provide some encouragement to anyone else who has any relevant half inch tapes! best regards Gordon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-183-1017396976-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Mar 29 04:16:16 2002 Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.72]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA08754 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 04:16:15 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-183-1017396976-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2002 10:16:17 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 29 Mar 2002 10:16:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 18439 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2002 10:16:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2002 10:16:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Mar 2002 10:16:09 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id EAA08407 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 04:05:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200203291005.EAA08407@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 04:05:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Imp80 for intel! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > A while back it was said that it was hoped to make the Imp to C convertor > available to the project if Peter got permission to release it. > Is this still likely to happen, or was permission denied? No, but I had hoped to do a little more work on the support library before it was released. I was working on that and it was coming along nicely, when I had to change my priorities and switch to working on the Imp80 Intel compiler instead, on account of time before Peter Stephens retires is growing short, and the compiler needs the most work done before it will work reliably. I.e. with a working Imp80 we can easily recompile ImpToC, but without a working Imp80 we cannot compile Imp80 - hence why Peter is compiling it on his Unix in Scotland and emailing me the binaries to link here. As I said I'm leaving town for 3 days early in the morning (about 4 hours from now) so I can't work on this right now, but once I get back I'll put the current state of ImpToC on a web page for you to download and try out. Meanwhile if you are brave, you can try a few short imp procedures etc on this web page: http://www.gtoal.com/pizzabox/cgi-bin/imptoc MAJOR CAVEAT: this is not raw access to the translator. It first pipes the source through a pre-formatter in order to remove %include statements, so that hackers can't get a listing of arbitrary files off my system. Unfortunately the pre-formatter fails if there is a bad syntax error in the source. So expect strange things to happen if for example you feed Imp77 sources at it. This is not a release cgi. It was just a little proof of concept test. It *will* go away soon, when I make a proper release of the code on the web site. Graham PS Also you can do Imp80 syntax checks at this URL: http://www.gtoal.com/pizzabox/cgi-bin/imp - same caveats. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-184-1017676136-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 09:42:21 2002 Received: from n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09058 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:42:20 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-184-1017676136-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2002 15:48:57 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 1 Apr 2002 15:48:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 50729 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2002 15:48:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2002 15:48:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2002 15:48:55 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA08922 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:38:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200204011538.JAA08922@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:38:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] CW/PSR's Mouses paper Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Peter Robertson and Chris Whitfield have finished thieir short history of Mouses, which you can read here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/mouses/Mouses1b.htm That was generated from a .doc file by M$'s "export to html" feature of which I've never been too impressed. If you can read M$ Word documents, this version may be more readable: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/mouses/Mouses1b.doc Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6GDALA/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-185-1017862518-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Apr 3 13:30:59 2002 Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18750 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:30:58 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-185-1017862518-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2002 19:35:18 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 3 Apr 2002 19:35:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 99043 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2002 19:35:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2002 19:35:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2002 19:35:16 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA18521 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:24:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200204031924.NAA18521@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:24:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] PDP 11 Imp Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO An essay from Peter Robertson: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp/PDP11IMP.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6GDALA/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-186-1017875332-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Apr 3 17:01:33 2002 Received: from n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.65]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26682 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:01:31 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-186-1017875332-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2002 23:10:41 -0000 X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 3 Apr 2002 23:08:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 91695 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2002 23:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2002 23:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2002 23:08:44 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Thu, 4 Apr 2002 00:08:44 +0100 Received: from tiny (unverified [80.195.34.53]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 00:08:44 +0100 Message-ID: <01dc01c1db64$5f010740$3522c350@tiny> To: References: <200204031924.NAA18521@admin.vt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Rainer Thonnes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 00:07:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] PDP 11 Imp Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > An essay from Peter Robertson: > http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp/PDP11IMP.htm Very nice, but I can't help but feel that this amazing feat owes its existence to the chance fact that IMP11 convention was that results were passed in the same register as parameter 2. Had it been parameter 1 instead, as was the case with Hamish's compilers for the Motorola 68000, then I think the code would have needed two more instructions, not surprisingly a MOV r0,r1 and MOV r1,r0, respectively. Is the "documented optimal" hand-coded Ackermann available for comparison? -- And is the hand-coder's name available for derision? By the way, if I may show my ignorance, what "layman's terms" quantity is it that Ackermann's function computes? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6GDALA/VovDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-187-1017909341-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 02:25:30 2002 Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA11694 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 02:25:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-187-1017909341-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2002 08:35:41 -0000 X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 4 Apr 2002 08:35:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 31170 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2002 08:35:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2002 08:35:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.177) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2002 08:35:39 -0000 Received: from modem-2814.python.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.218.254] helo=your07dtc7q2g9) by cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16t2iX-00016s-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 09:35:38 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c1dbb3$aee2c290$feda86d9@your07dtc7q2g9> To: References: <200204031924.NAA18521@admin.vt.com> <01dc01c1db64$5f010740$3522c350@tiny> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:35:31 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] PDP 11 Imp Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO The possibility of permuting register usage is one of the weaknesses of processor architectures which have multiple general registers, and one of the bugbears of compiling for them. In recent times I did some work on object-code optimisation (for the Motorola 68k family) and this included, as well as minimisation of the number of registers used, re-assignment to maximise re-use of live operands. It's probably safe for Rainer to profess ignorance at this stage without having his CS honours degree revoked. Ackermann's function is unlikely to correspond to any 'layman's' function, since it was devised as an example of a recursive function which is not 'primitive recursive' -- it grows faster than any primitive recursive function. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-188-1017915124-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 04:03:26 2002 Received: from n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.69]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA14568 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 04:03:25 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-188-1017915124-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2002 10:12:03 -0000 X-Sender: Pete.Stephens@analog.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 4 Apr 2002 10:12:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 52871 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2002 10:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2002 10:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nwd2mime2.analog.com) (137.71.25.114) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2002 10:12:02 -0000 Received: from nwd2gtw1 (unverified) by nwd2mime2.analog.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:12:55 -0500 Received: from edin_exm1.analog.com ([137.71.117.15]) by nwd2mhb2.analog.com with ESMTP (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.7.1) id FAA10107 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by EDIN_EXM1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:06:51 +0100 Message-ID: To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: "Stephens, Pete" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:06:49 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] PDP 11 Imp Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > > > The possibility of permuting register usage is one of the > weaknesses of > processor architectures which have multiple general > registers, and one of > the bugbears of compiling for them. In recent times I did some work on > object-code optimisation (for the Motorola 68k family) and > this included, as > well as minimisation of the number of registers used, re-assignment to > maximise re-use of live operands. > It is indeed; especially when compilcated by some instructions that need even-odd pairs and others that are resticted to the first 4 registers due to pressure on bits in the instruction. For the latest [DSP] chips I try 4 times. 1) First shot 2) Work on the loops hoisting everything possible and unrolling where this will help [involves a preliminary schedule to find the stalls] This may involve spilling registers at the loop start and reloading afterwards 3) Re-allocate from scratch to minimise spills and also to reduce the no of non volatile registers that need saving in the preamble and restoring in the postamble 4) Finally and for leaf routines only try to run without a frame pointer and if relevant use this as an additional register to reduce spills. Step 2 is omitted if profile directed feedback indicates the loop is not executed many times. Even after this we have users complaining of avoidable spills sometimes correctly! Pete Step 3 is not in the IMP compiler graham and I are trying to build for the history project ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-189-1018730555-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Apr 13 15:33:55 2002 Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.87]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01407 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:33:53 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-189-1018730555-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Apr 2002 20:42:35 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_1); 13 Apr 2002 20:42:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 11561 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2002 20:42:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2002 20:42:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2002 20:42:32 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA01323 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:31:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200204132031.PAA01323@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:31:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] More progress Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I've put the MOUSES tape online in a temporary form in this directory: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/mouses/source/ this is temporary until JGH re-reads the tape and corrects a small problem in the format which caused a minor corruption in some of the text files. I'd been putting this release off, waiting for the corrections but that's been a few weeks now and I'm not sure it's fair to leave it dangling any longer. We have already found some of the tape contents useful and have compiled an old version of Layout using Peter Stephen's Imp80 compiler. This has a allowed us to recover some documents from other projects which we only had layout sources for, such as this documentation file for Hamish's Imp compiler: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/APM/I/IMP.TXT Also this weekend, Ian Young has found a layout format document describing Peter Robertson's ICODE format (final version) plus the 3L Imp77 library definition, both documents which can be found here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp/imp77/ JGH and IAY have been asking for the Imp compiler to try out so I have put a tar file on the ftp area with the current state of the compiler on it. This is NOT yet part of the history project release. Anyone who picks it up at the moment must: 1) Inform me that they have a copy 2) Work with Peter Stephens and me to fix any bugs. 3) Delete this alpha copy and replace it with the final release when we're ready to make one. The above is on ftp.gtoal.com in /pub - please give your email address as the password to account "ftp". I'm not usually this strict about code but it is important for the reputation of the compiler that the first time it is released publically, it is robust and well tested. This release has known issues which have to do with integration under Linux, not with the quality of the generated code. We'd like to fix these problems before the compiler gets into general use, so people who download it are expected to help find and fix the problems. Also the compiler currently does not have all the run-time library entries that you would need in order to port arbitrary Imp programs. I'm working on expanding the library to be more compatible with other Imp systems, and to integrate it so you can mix Imp80 native code with ImpToC translated code compiled under GCC. Graham PS Reason I've been silent lately is I've been off ill for over a week. So if anyone is waiting for email from me, please mail me again as I may have missed it. I've replied to all the email I know of, but when you get 300 spams a day it's sometimes hard to spot the real stuff, especially when you have a week-long backlog. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-191-1022258255-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 24 11:26:22 2002 Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.67]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06815 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 11:26:21 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-191-1022258255-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2002 16:37:36 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 24 May 2002 16:37:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 45817 invoked from network); 24 May 2002 16:35:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 May 2002 16:35:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 May 2002 16:35:41 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA06703 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 May 2002 11:23:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200205241623.LAA06703@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:23:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Anyone have ACM full text access? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I'd like to add this paper to the web site: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=363196.363217 Also if in accessing it you come across the copyright info they usually post, please note it too. During the short period that access to the ACM full texts was free, they had a notice that copying was freely permissible as long as you included a statement like the one below wherever you reproduced the text: This is from CACM Programming Techniques and Data Structures, (c) 1988 ACM 0001-0782/88/0500-0572 Copying is by permission of the Association for Computing Machinery. (that was actually for a different paper that I have on another web site of mine) So although they lock up the full texts now, and make you pay for membership, I believe that once you have a copy of one of the texts, you are allowed to reproduce it on your own web site with the appropriate credit given. thanks Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-192-1022369148-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 25 18:14:30 2002 Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA04280 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 18:14:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200205252314.SAA04280@admin.vt.com> X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-192-1022369148-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 May 2002 23:25:48 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 25 May 2002 23:25:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 47625 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 23:25:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 May 2002 23:25:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO clueless.redbus.aaisp.net) (217.169.20.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 May 2002 23:25:47 -0000 Received: from [217.169.31.211]([217.169.31.211] HELO:rikki.tavi.co.uk) by clueless.redbus.aaisp.net for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 26 May 2002 00:25:45 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3cf01d1ca; 26 May 02 00:24:12 BST To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 00:24:11 BST Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Anyone have ACM full text access? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Fri, 24 May 2002 11:23:54 -0500 (CDT) Graham I have the file (full text) but cannot see a copyright notice on the site.... Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-190-1021498573-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 15 16:24:59 2002 Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.91]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01001 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:24:56 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-190-1021498573-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 May 2002 21:36:13 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 15 May 2002 21:36:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 97456 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 21:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 May 2002 21:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2002 21:36:12 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA00981 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:24:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200205152124.QAA00981@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:24:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] The 'other' Imp Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO This is off topic but I thought readers here would appreciate it anyway: when I first started searching the net for Edinburgh related software at the start of this project, I came across another language called Imp which turned out to have been used at the N.S.A. - yes, the secret one, not the National Scrabble Association :-) I was even able to find the email address of the head of the programming team at the NSA during the seventies (now retire), and had a chat with him about the language - I had wondered if they had somehow or other got their hands on _our_ Imp ... but it turned out to be a different language, but with remarkably similar design goals to ours. Unfortunately the gentleman I spoke to was not able to show me any examples of the language, and that was that for about a year. Today I discovered that some of this other Imp (aka "Imp72") has turned up on the net. It is somewhat a hybrid of fortran, algol60 and bcpl in my opinion. There's a RUNOFF format document describing the language here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-03/01/43,50306/imp.rno.html and some examples in the same directory: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-03/ (look for .imc files) Here is a bit of the compiler itself: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-03/01/43,50306/impsem.imc.html By the way, we had precedence on the name - theirs dates from 1970. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-193-1023897966-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jun 12 10:53:49 2002 Received: from gtoal.com (gtoal.com [208.246.62.3]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24413 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:53:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.87]) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA02651 for ; Sat, 7 May 1960 05:37:15 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-193-1023897966-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jun 2002 16:06:06 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 12 Jun 2002 16:06:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 67052 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2002 16:06:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jun 2002 16:06:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jun 2002 16:06:04 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02631 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 7 May 1960 05:36:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <196005071036.FAA02631@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 7 May 1960 05:36:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some text processing history Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I found this today. It'll make a nice addition to our eventual web site. http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/bicaweb/b2/hanley.html Graham PS While I'm at it; http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bradley/qpg/lfcs.html http://medialab.dyndns.org/~martin/tape/gos/crap/hoe ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-194-1026338675-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jul 10 16:50:43 2002 Received: from gtoal.com (gtoal.com [208.246.62.3]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11942 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:50:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06984 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 1960 11:52:18 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-194-1026338675-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2002 22:04:37 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Jul 2002 22:04:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 32524 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 22:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2002 22:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 22:04:35 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06979; Sat, 4 Jun 1960 11:51:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <196006041651.LAA06979@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 4 Jun 1960 11:51:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Visiting in August Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi folks; I expect to be in Scotland for 3 weeks in August - I'm hoping we can maybe organise a group get-together (although for my part it may have to be a more staid event than I'd prefer - I've recently found out I have diabetes, so booze is out of the question for me at least:-( ) Actually, my wife was asking me if I could arrange a Distillery visit for her, and I'm thinking we could double that as a group event. I know we have some experts on the subject in this group, including but not limited to JHB... Also if there's anything I can do to advance the project while I'm in town, I'd like to do it. By the way, Hamish reported last week that attempts to get files from the EMAS archive have not been as successful as we had hoped - for reasons I don't fully understand, very few ECSD staff files appear to have been preserved :-( I'll try to visit Andrew McKendrick and the Bish when I'm in town to see if there's anything can be done about this (assuming I can get in to the impenetrable fortress that the ERCC/EUCS has become!). Mail me if you have any ideas on how I can use my time in Edinburgh productively to advance the project (or if you just want to get together for a blether) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-195-1027071259-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Jul 19 04:20:22 2002 Received: from gtoal.com (gtoal.com [208.246.62.3]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA03972 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 04:19:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.68]) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA19242 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 1960 23:26:58 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-195-1027071259-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2002 09:34:19 -0000 X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 19 Jul 2002 09:34:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 64926 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 09:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2002 09:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.174) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 09:34:17 -0000 Received: from modem-524.orangutan.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.226.12] helo=your07dtc7q2g9) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17VU9P-00045N-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:34:15 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c22f07$6f6e6ea0$0ce287d9@your07dtc7q2g9> To: References: <196006041651.LAA06979@gtoal.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:34:08 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Visiting in August Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Graham, Sorry not to have responded sooner, but I have been up in Shetland for a spot of bird-watching (feathered variety), fishing, dancing, and so forth. Had a great time, and the weather was a lot better than we have been having here in Edinburgh. I'd like to meet up when you are here. On present plans, I expect to be around for most of August except for the weekend of 9th to 11th. I look forward to seeing you again. Hamish. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/O3jeVD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-196-1028066600-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jul 30 16:48:04 2002 Received: from gtoal.com ([208.246.62.3]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29450 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:48:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77]) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA29136 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 1960 10:32:43 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-196-1028066600-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2002 22:03:20 -0000 X-Sender: mail@argonsecurities.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 30 Jul 2002 22:03:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 9144 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Anti_Pieman" X-Originating-IP: 62.6.99.189 X-Yahoo-Profile: Anti_Pieman MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] EMAS Programs Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I wrote a few programs which were run daily as part of the EMAS housekeeping in 1972/73, including ACCOUNTS ( primarily logging user activity ) and ERRORLOGGING. I may still have hard copy of the IMP code kicking about. Also I remember well a few games the Operators on night shift on the ICL 4/75 used to play; the Lunar Lander ( which I think was pinched from the PDP11 upstairs at ERCC ) a golf game which it was rumoured was written by either Peter Stephens or maybe Andrew McKendrick and a superb football game which gave a very exciting commentary on matches where Hearts always won. Ah the power of virtual reality. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NsdPZD/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-0-980375831-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Wed Jan 24 16:04:35 2001 Received: from fj.egroups.com (fj.egroups.com [64.211.240.231]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10273 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:04:28 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-0-980375831-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2001 22:37:15 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_1_2); 24 Jan 2001 22:37:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 36730 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2001 22:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2001 22:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Jan 2001 22:21:52 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA09843 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:48:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101242148.PAA09843@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:48:55 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Welcome to the Edinburgh Computer History project Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO In the last year or so, the cost of large hard disks has plummeted - here in the US I can buy an 80Gb drive for $300. We are living in an era where from now on, almost every human endeavor is going to be recorded for posterity. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case in the early days when computers were first invented, up to about the 1980's. Programs which were written in that era tended not to be preserved online as a system went from one hard drive to the next. Much of what was written in the early days was backup up to 'archival' media, and a whole lot of that is lost or no longer readable. I myself had a very harrowing experience just recently when trying to recover software from 600 ten-year-old floppies, and they were in a format that is still in use. I lost about 5% of them. This prompted me to realise that we really have a very narrow window indeed in which we can save our computing heritage. And Edinburgh is truly responsible for some great computing heritage - our mistake at the time was that we did not subscribe to the American style 'publish or perish' ethic, and we did not publicise much of what we did. With the result that anyone in the future wanting to know what the significant history of computing was, will rely on books such as Steven Levy's "Hackers" and will come away thinking that only MIT and a few other US universities were the only pioneers. So... I would like for us to save the pioneering work done at Edinburgh for posterity. Even if it is not truly appreciated right now, I believe it will be one day; but for now simply saving everything we can has to be a top priority. This project will dedicate a web site for every piece of source code from Edinburgh's past that anyone can find. As I said above - disk space is cheap now. I believe we can save everything that was ever written in Edinburg on one disk here. Also I am personally willing to burn CDs of the archive for any Edinburgh people who want to save a peronal copy, more or less as a distributed backup mechanism! So... get out there, approach your lecturers, friends - anyone who remembers all the good work (and even the bad!) that was done at EUCS and ERCC, and help start this project off by identifying our lost history; then (and in parallel to as much extent as possible) we'll start collecting those sources and hosting them on our archive site. The site is currently housed at http://www.gtoal.com/history/ - just to get it going. I will move it to a better machine, and probably it's own domain, once we get started. Thank you to everyone who participates in this project. I will be handling as much on-line coordination as I can - feel free to email me privately if you want, but I'd prefer that all communication was via this mailing list so we can be 100% 'open skies' as the Americans say. I have opened up the mailing list archives to non-members so you can point your colleagues at it to check out what we're doing and see if they want to join us. Gordon Brebner will be coordinating people on the ground in Edinburgh, for instance if someone needs access to old tapes or disks stored in the Computer Science department. Let's do it! Graham Toal To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-1-980454322-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Jan 25 13:52:35 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14204 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:52:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-1-980454322-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2001 20:25:23 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2); 25 Jan 2001 20:25:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 26761 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2001 19:58:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Jan 2001 19:58:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Jan 2001 19:58:10 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA13117 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:25:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101251925.NAA13117@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:25:10 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] New web address; progress so far. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thanks to GDMR, the web page is now available as http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/ This will be the permanent address from now, on. Let's forget the other one ever existed. (That'll give me the option of moving it to another machine sometime. It's still actually housed at the same place but that machine didn't have enough capacity for the archive. I plan to build a new dedicated machine for that, with an 80Gb drive and a CD burner.) Although no-one has posted to the list here, we *have* received several very helpful emails from people who have copies of old software or listings. I will summarize and post them here after work tonight. (Remember I'm 6hrs earlier in the day than most of you - Texas time) This project is clearly going to work. I am very relieved, I thought it was going to be difficult getting it started but everyone is very enthusiastic! I have identified one immediate need for volunteers - a lot of what has been found is on paper. It is clearly going to be way too much for the one volunteer scanner we already have (IAY). It would be really good if we could drum up some interest from a number of students to share the work of scanning old documents. 5 to 10 people in a pool would be a great help. (I suggest that sort of number because we know that some people will lose interest or be too busy etc - we need enough extra capacity to ensure there's always 3 or 4 people available at any time) If someone in Edinburgh could ask around the CS students, that would be appreciated. All they need is access to a scanner. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-2-980465735-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Jan 25 17:04:23 2001 Received: from fg.egroups.com (fg.egroups.com [208.50.144.70]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20809 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:04:21 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-2-980465735-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2001 23:37:19 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2); 25 Jan 2001 23:35:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 91898 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2001 23:12:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Jan 2001 23:12:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cj.egroups.com) (10.1.2.82) by mta2 with SMTP; 25 Jan 2001 23:12:33 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: jgh@cableinet.co.uk Received: from [10.1.2.230] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2001 23:12:33 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Message-ID: <94qbs1+97i2@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.30.112.1 From: "Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:12:01 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some Input from JGH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > EDWIN > task: Contact JGH. Who apparently is the world's last IMP user. > See what else he has... I am sure that I am not the last, possibly the last to admit it! I think that I have the full sources of the latest version of EDWIN somewhere. Other programs which I still use/have: ECCE - RWT's port to Unix, only as SunOS binary. VECCE - PMcL and ADC after HMD, VMS source and binary. NLINES - NR's VMS command FILES - GDMR VMS command CLEAN - GDMR VMS command imp - 3L SunOS binary version (this is commercial and owned by CGI) IMP - 3L VMS binary version (this is commercial and owned by CGI) Shapesmith - ES2/LL binary version (commercial and owned by CGI) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-3-980472971-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Jan 25 19:03:32 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25275 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:03:31 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-3-980472971-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 01:36:29 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2); 26 Jan 2001 01:36:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 36193 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 01:10:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 01:10:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 01:10:17 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA24440 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:37:17 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101260037.SAA24440@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:37:17 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some Input from JGH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > EDWIN > > task: Contact JGH. Who apparently is the world's last IMP user. > > See what else he has... > > I am sure that I am not the last, possibly the last to admit it! > > I think that I have the full sources of the latest version of > EDWIN somewhere. Great. I'll contact you when our ftp archive is online. Or if you have somewhere on your own system to put them (public ftp or http) then I can pick them up myself when ready. > Other programs which I still use/have: > > ECCE - RWT's port to Unix, only as SunOS binary. > VECCE - PMcL and ADC after HMD, VMS source and binary. > NLINES - NR's VMS command > FILES - GDMR VMS command > CLEAN - GDMR VMS command > > imp - 3L SunOS binary version (this is commercial and owned by CGI) > IMP - 3L VMS binary version (this is commercial and owned by CGI) > Shapesmith - ES2/LL binary version (commercial and owned by CGI) OK, we'd better set some ground rules so that we're not misinterpreted by anyone: I do *not* want to archive any commercial sources of anything that can still be considered a product. Firstly, it's illegal; secondly, it implies the owners still have the sources and maintain them themselves - meaning it must be pretty recent software, and not in danger of being lost. (Caveat: if you know the copyright holders and they give permission to release sources, that's a different issue) Rather than looking for something like a current Sparc or Vax Imp compiler, what we need to preserve are old ones for machines that are no longer in use, such as a PDP8 or an Interdata, or the EMAS compilers. (If this project is still in existence many years from now, we'll get those ancient Sparc and Vax programs after the machines no longer exist ;-) ) Also, unless anyone is planning to do a hardware emulation, I don't really see a point in preserving old binaries at this point. That may change in the future, but if so it will be a different project. (If anyone does take on any hardware emulations, some bootstrap binaries may be essential. Which reminds me, it would be nice to have a historical record of things like the bootstrap switch sequences for the Interdatas and the PDP9/15! I think we may find that in an old copy of 'Noddy goes to the Machine Halls'...) [Does anyone remember a student project from Dave who hacked the EMAS Imp compiler to embed source in the binaries, with the intention that code would never 'go stiff' again? That was innovative. It didn't catch on, but it was a good idea.] The other things you mentioned such as your Edwin and VECCE are ideal candidates for the archive and I'll be calling on you in a few days to arrange pickup! Thanks. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-4-980501749-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 03:02:51 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA01961 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 03:02:50 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-4-980501749-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 09:35:50 -0000 X-Sender: gordon@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 09:35:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 71349 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 09:35:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 09:35:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta3 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 10:36:52 -0000 Received: from tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.36]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id JAA04432 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:35:45 GMT Received: (from gordon@localhost) by tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA23528; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:35:45 GMT Message-ID: <14961.17649.133468.122005@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200101251925.NAA13117@admin.vt.com> References: <200101251925.NAA13117@admin.vt.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid From: Gordon Brebner MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:35:45 +0000 (GMT) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] New web address; progress so far. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I have identified one immediate need for volunteers - a lot of what has > been found is on paper. It is clearly going to be way too much for the > one volunteer scanner we already have (IAY). It would be really good > if we could drum up some interest from a number of students to share the > work of scanning old documents. 5 to 10 people in a pool would be a > great help. (I suggest that sort of number because we know that some > people will lose interest or be too busy etc - we need enough extra > capacity to ensure there's always 3 or 4 people available at any time) > If someone in Edinburgh could ask around the CS students, that would > be appreciated. All they need is access to a scanner. I've posted a message on the CS undergraduate newsgroup (eduni.dcs.undergrad) this morning, outlining the project, and asking for volunteers. The text follows, in case anyone is interested. Gordon. --- Current undergraduates might not be aware of it, but there is a long history of computer system building at Edinburgh, dating back to the foundation of the Computer Unit in 1963 by Sidney Michaelson. The Computer Unit bifurcated in 1966 in the academic-oriented Department of Computer Science (which evolved into part of today's Division of Informatics), and the service-oriented Edinburgh Regional Computing Centre, which evolved into today's Computing Services. >From 1963 until the late 1980s, there was extensive activity in implementing operating systems, compilers, other software tools, and building hardware. Undergraduates then would do practical work largely using systems software written at Edinburgh, a situation only changed by the rise of Unix, and now Linux. A group of Edinburgh graduates has now initiated a project to ensure that the memory of this era is preserved by, in the first instance, attempting to collect a definitive collection of source code and documentation for the various Edinburgh products. More details of this are at: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk Aside from the fact that this might be of interest to today's undergraduates, I invite active participation in one particular respect. Much of the material people have is on paper, so there is a need to scan it into an electronic form for storage in the new repository. The project is keen for any students who possess scanners for their own PCs, to volunteer to assist in the scanning process. No particular time commitment is required, just a willingness to help when able. If you are interested, see the above web page, which has details of a new mailing list associated with the project. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-5-980511523-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 05:45:47 2001 Received: from mk.egroups.com (mk.egroups.com [208.50.144.76]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA05683 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 05:45:46 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-5-980511523-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 12:18:44 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 12:18:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 69701 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 12:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 12:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot3.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.51) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 12:18:38 -0000 Received: from [192.100.135.7] (black48.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.177]) by cheviot3.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f0QCIXH18536; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:18:34 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 2.0 (cheviot3) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:18:29 +0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Documents about AA/IMP/EMAS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Edinburgh History -- Documents held by Harry Whitfield -------------------------------------------------------- ATLAS AUTOCODE FOR KDF9 ----------------------- ATLAS AUTOCODE COMPILER FOR KDF9 - COMPUTER UNIT REPORT 4 - 1st October 1965 AA DOCUMENTATION - Volumes 1, 2 and 3 - Describe the structure of the (KDF9) AA Compiler. Also Version I and Version K source listings. IMP --- IMP 75 PRELIMINARY REFERENCE MANUAL, I.N.5 - 15.9.69. PROGRAMMING IN IMP, EMAP/41.5/0026, Revised 1st October 1969. EMAS ---- EMAP Technical Committee Minutes EMAP/41.0/0001 to EMAP/41.0/0051 EMAP Technical Committee Reports EMAP/41.5/0001 to EMAP/41.5/0034 apart from the big manuals. EMAS (SYSTEM 4-75) HARDWARE SUMMARY. MULTI-ACCESS SYSTEM MANUAL SYSTEM 4-75, 11/1/67 EMAS TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION 4-75/1: SCHEDULING -- EMAP/41.5/0013, 26/3/67. EMAS TYPICAL USER FACILITIES, I.N.2 - 20/9/67. EMAS PRELIMINARY TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION 4-75/6: STORAGE CONTROL -- 29/4/68 A Syntactic Macro Scheme, A.Freeman, June 1969. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS PRIMARY SUBSYSTEM REFERENCE MANUAL -- 1.5.70. EMAS PROVISIONAL SYSTEM MANUAL 1 August 1967. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS OPERATORS MANUAL, 22/1/70. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS REFERENCE MANUAL (EMAP/41.5/0028), July 1970. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS REFERENCE MANUAL, SEPTEMBER 1971 EMAS USER MANUAL, Preliminary Edition, April 1972. EMAS USER MANUAL, First Edition, October 1972. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS SUBSYSTEM REFERENCE MANUAL, (Draft) May 1973. EMAS Reports 1 to 7, April 1974 - February 1975. These are reprints of papers published (mainly) in the Computer Journal. EMAS Operators Manual, First Edition, October 1976. EMAS User's Guide, December 1976. Note: Copies of many of the above documents should be in the DCS and/or ERCC archives. Other members of the EMAS team may have copies. There may even be machine readable copies of some. Reference copies of the EMAS source code and system were made in December 1970. These should have been kept. There were also paper tape copies made of the KDF9 AA and IMP compilers. Other versions of Edinburgh Software ------------------------------------ While I was at the University of Groningen (1972-1979), we ported a version of IMP onto our PDP11/40 and wrote a mini operating system called GUTS. We then ported IMP onto GUTS and later onto Unix. We also made a version of ECCE in Algol 60 for use on the CDC CYBER. We ported IMP onto the CYBER and students did a number of compiler projects for languages based on IMP. I have ported ECCE onto numerous systems over the years, most recently onto the Macintosh where I rewrote the whole program in Pascal. I also produced a BBEdit ECCE extension. I have Pascal source for these. I've copied this message to former colleagues at Groningen in the hope that they might like to fill in more detail. One of these also worked on modelling EMAS scheduling. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-6-980515298-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 06:48:41 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA07178 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:48:40 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-6-980515298-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 13:21:40 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 13:21:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 71149 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 13:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 13:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot3.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.51) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 13:21:34 -0000 Received: from [192.100.135.7] (black21.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.150]) by cheviot3.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f0QD3QH27200 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:03:26 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (Unverified) Message-Id: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 2.0 (cheviot3) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:02:26 +0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Other Compilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO One of the first compilers written in Buccleuch Place was a music compiler for the new PDP8 by David Rees. If I remember correctly, this compiled up to four voices into an intermediate code, which was then interpreted and played by pulsing the loudspeaker of the PDP8. I think I wrote the interpreter/player. At the time, we made some tape recordings of our efforts. During the EMAS project, there was an IMP compiler developed which could measure the vagrancy of an executing program and then rearrange the code to reduce the number of page faults. The compiler on which this was based was abandoned, so this clever idea was never put into production. The IMP compilers (developed by PDS) which survived were based on the original AA/IMP compilers. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-7-980518824-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 07:48:38 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09053 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:48:37 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-7-980518824-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 14:21:36 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 14:20:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 39279 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 14:20:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 14:20:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 14:20:21 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA09005; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:47:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101261347.HAA09005@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:47:19 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Other Compilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thank you indeed for the information and for preserving so much old history. The leads about the dump of all EMAS sources and the KDF9 compiler are great - I really hope we manage to track them down. We would welcome the GUTS code and your ECCE ports - even though perhaps not strictly written at Edinburgh, they're definitely in direct lineage from what was done here. I do remember Ian Young having a copy of GUTS which he was running on a PDP11 at the Wave Power project. (By the way - I ported ECCE to BCPL and C myself - it really is easier than learning a new editor, isn't it? And still after 30 years more powerful and succint than current editors...) We'll be in touch once we have a fileserver up, to get what you have as online material. We'll probably wait quite some time over the manuals you have; it's going to take a *long* time to scan what we've found already, and as you note a lot of the manuals you have will be available locally and we should find those first. I truly appreciate your help, thank you. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-8-980519667-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 08:01:35 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA09490 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:01:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-8-980519667-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 14:34:32 -0000 X-Sender: gordon@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 14:34:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 76474 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 14:34:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 14:34:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 14:34:01 -0000 Received: from tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.36]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id OAA21340 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:33:55 GMT Received: (from gordon@localhost) by tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA24028; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:33:54 GMT Message-ID: <14961.35538.334758.506945@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid From: Gordon Brebner MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:33:54 +0000 (GMT) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Other Compilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > One of the first compilers written in Buccleuch Place was a music compiler for the new PDP8 by David Rees. If I remember correctly, this compiled up to four voices into an intermediate code, which was then interpreted and played by pulsing the loudspeaker of the PDP8. I think I wrote the interpreter/player. I've just mentioned this to David - he says that he's still got it! Gordon. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-9-980520860-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 08:21:35 2001 Received: from c9.egroups.com (c9.egroups.com [208.50.99.230]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA10234 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:21:34 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-9-980520860-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 14:54:23 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 14:54:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 33894 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 14:52:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 14:52:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.43) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 14:52:47 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.108] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 14:52:41 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <94s2vn+s8tm@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.104.172.1 From: gtoal@vt.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:52:39 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Other Compilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Harry Whitfield wrote: > One of the first compilers written in Buccleuch Place was a music > compiler for the new PDP8 by David Rees. If I remember correctly, > this compiled up to four voices into an intermediate code, which was > then interpreted and played by pulsing the loudspeaker of the PDP8. > I think I wrote the interpreter/player. > > At the time, we made some tape recordings of our efforts. David still has this. I think he has it on paper tape, and if anyone knows of a working paper tape system still at Edinburgh where we can read in any old tapes we find, please let us know. This reminds me that Fred King also wrote a system just like this for the M6809 lab kits; in fact I think I remember that it was a deliberate clone of the PDP8 system. I do remember seeing this myself (I might even have worked on it a little). It had an ascii input language and included loops etc. Looked something like (F#GGAB)4 or whatever makes sense to those musically inclined. (Which counts me out) If we can save either of these programs, we should also save the input music files. Does anyone have Fred's email? I've lost touch with him. Graham PS I see the buyout of eGroups by Yahoo has finally made it into the web pages at last. Hope it wasn't too inconvenient for new members. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-10-980614563-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 10:23:01 2001 Received: from cj.egroups.com (cj.egroups.com [208.50.144.68]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18623 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:23:01 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-10-980614563-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Jan 2001 16:56:05 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 27 Jan 2001 16:56:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 19500 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2001 16:56:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Jan 2001 16:56:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Jan 2001 17:57:07 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA18619 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:22:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101271622.KAA18619@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:22:57 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] eGroups facilities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO There is a 'bookmarks' feature on the menu at the left in Yahoo Groups which any list member can add to. Feel free to use it for anything that is relevant to Edinburgh history. I've started it off with a couple of links that I've found recently. This server also has a file-upload facility which I haven't experimented with yet. It may be a convenient staging area for small file transfers (there's a 25Mb limit I think). There's also some sort of database facility, which may be a good place to start keeping track of items we've found. I'll try it out this weekend. I believe members can use any of these facilities. I've tried to open up this forum as much as I can. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980614563/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-11-980654984-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:36:41 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07137 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:36:40 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-11-980654984-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:09:45 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:09:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 19795 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 04:09:42 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07128 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:36:34 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280336.VAA07128@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:36:34 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO GDMR thinks there are some old "new" filestore backups around on 1/2" tape, and some VMS ones too. He may have paper listings of his filestore code (the version that ran on the VAX and the Fred-machines, and not either of Hamish's originals). One of my vacation jobs was to write a user interface to the filestore to replace one of the older ones (I think JGH's?). It was in service for some years. I may have that on paper. Can't remember what host it was for. Either VMS or the Interdatas. In terms of history I guess it was the equivalent of an FTP client and I suspect predates FTP. George wrote the comms part or the cubewar program I mentioned; he says Nick (I presume Rothwell) wrote the user interface. He also reminded me that I wrote an independent version of the EMAS Command Line Interpreter. (The EMAS equivalent of a Unix shell; I can't remember all what it did different from the EMAS one; I think the main thing was that it had macro expansion and aliases). I did find some paper listings from my student days recently but haven't yet gone through them all. It may be in there. I don't personally have *anything* on magnetic media from when I was an undergrad at Edinburgh as it predates personal computers. It wasn't particular interesting; I'd rather we found the real thing. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980654984/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-12-980655188-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:40:12 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07256 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:40:12 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-12-980655188-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:13:08 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 34909 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07231 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:39:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280339.VAA07231@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:39:59 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] DJR's info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO DJR wrote: > I just remembered I do have something machine readable - I have paper > tapes of the assembler source for my PDP8 music compiler which must > date from around 1966. The PDP8 itself is in storage in the Chambers > St. museum I think. Somebody should get it going - maybe Jimmy > Johnstone before he retires this summer! I second the latter sentiment with a proviso - we know we can't keep these old machines going for ever (my own year and Ian's year kept the 9/15 running for two years after the support budget for it ran out but even it eventually had to go. The power cost alone was too high) - so it would be great to get a machine like up up and running again just long enough to write an emulator and make sure it was a perfect match for the real thing. Then it would live on forever... (however this is not in the scope of our project) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980655188/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-13-980655482-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:44:58 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07418 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:44:57 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-13-980655482-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:18:02 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:18:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 68114 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:18:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:18:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 04:18:01 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07414 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:44:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280344.VAA07414@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:44:53 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] DJR's listings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I don't have anything machine readable but I have lots of printed > stuff that I've kept as souvenirs. It might be worth asking the (new) > EUCS how far back their archive tapes go, and also the DCS (as was). > I never lost a file with the ERCC, I remember, over about 20 years. > > I have got listings of some of the EMAS stuff I wrote in the early > 70's: Director 714 (30/6/72) and CEDRIC 703 (2/6/72) plus many of the > manuals we wrote at the time. I also have a listing of the last > EMAS2900 kernel I wrote, dated 26/2/80. > > The earliest stuff I have is `Computer Unit Report No. 2 : A Guide to > a Survey Program for Atlas', dated November 1965 (probably a unique > copy, by now)! I have asked David if he would approach the EUCS (ERCC) on our behalf. Chris Whitfield also mentioned that there was a reference dump done once of the completed EMAS system, which would be a great thing to find. I know I remember stories of the EMAS team boasting about how the complete sources could fit in a briefcase and I think there may indeed have been a briefcase at one time with a complete printout in it, for effect when giving talks. I wonder... :-) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980655482/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-14-980656144-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:56:00 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07683 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:55:59 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-14-980656144-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:29:05 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:29:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 90073 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:29:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:29:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 05:30:08 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07679 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:55:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280355.VAA07679@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:55:56 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Gordon's info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > A quick look through my history box yielded, on paper: > 1. sources for all my Vax networking stuff > 2. EMAS and EMAS 2900 reference cards > 3. ISYS system documentation > 4. HAL 7502 manual, and 7502 "OS" software > 5. ISYS 80 manual, Filestore manual and HAL 70 manual > 6. ECSD LISP manual (Nick Shelness) > 7. Noddy Goes to the Machine Halls (Kathy, 78/79) > 8. Sticks & Stones manual (Luca) > 9. my CS4 operating system > 10. DEIMOS PDP-11 OS (by Brian Gilmore - now Director of EUCS) > 11. ISYS 70 source > 12. PDP-9/15 source > 13. a few bits of EMAS 2900 > There's other stuff, but those are the initial highlights. Some good stuff here. I had forgotten the model number of the ICL terminal. I'll update the web page appropriately. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980656145/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-15-980656348-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:59:23 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07752 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:59:22 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-15-980656348-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:32:29 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:32:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 99267 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 05:33:31 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07748 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:59:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280359.VAA07748@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:59:19 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] More GDMR info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I have some of those on paper too. I've also found load of Fred-machine > documentation, some filestore documentation, and a printout of the > filestore source. And I've got some 1/2" tapes containing filestore > backups, which might have some useful stuff on them if we could manage to > read them off. > > I have a feeling that I put a load of things to the ERCC archive service > too at one point. I've no idea if they're still around... We *definitely* need to find out what survived from the ERCC EMAS tape days. Also who in the area can physically read old tapes. Of any description. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980656349/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-16-980657334-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 22:15:49 2001 Received: from mv.egroups.com (mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA08244 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:15:48 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-16-980657334-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:48:55 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:48:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 444 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:48:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:48:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 04:48:53 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA08237 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:15:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280415.WAA08237@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:15:45 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Chris Whitfield's notes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I've lightly edited two emails from Chris Whitfield together, to summarize his recollections: > Things that spring to mind ... and I hope I still have m/c readables .... > > * PDP-8 imp syntax checker dating from when paper tapes were punched on > exceeding unreliable teletype 33s for transmission to Manchester. This > thing scanned the tapes and attempted to locate as many mispunchings as > possible. Summer 1966 > > * PDP-9 Inktronic printer driver .... the dreaded Inktronics > > * PDP-9 Editor > > * PDP-9 bootstrap tape .... booted both manufacturers OS and Hamish D's > Imp System. 10 instructions long (1" of tape!) so it could be taped in a > loop and left in the reader. > > * Text Layout program .... used for 2 years by ERCC. > > * PDP-9 "interpreter" .... checked student programs dynamically. Checked > each instruction before allowing it to be executed. Prevented beginning > assembler coders wasting time trying to find faults. Could check only part > of a program so was of practical value quite apart from helping students. > > * Mouses Operating System with Peter Robertson. > Used heavily at Moray House (_M_oray '_ouse_ _s_ystem !) and by CS undergraduates > I still have the complete source of this on a 1600 bpi 1/2" tape which may > or may not still be readable. > (c) Just been talking with Peter Robertson. We're both happy for > the source of the whole Mouses system, compilers and other support > software to be made available. Depends on that 1600 bpi tape I have > still being readable though. > * Yet another assembly code version of ECCE for Perkin-Elmer 32-bit mini. > I infiltrated Newcastle University's purity in 1972 or so by porting the > ERCC Imp and Fortran compilers to MTS. The professional support people > there, staunch handcoders to a man, were completely gobsmacked at the code > IMP could generate. Their view of high level languages was utterly > conditioned by things like AlgolW and PL360. > Incidentally, the *original* ECCE was written by Alan Freeman for the PDP-8 > in around 1964. I think he's a financial analyst in London now ... at > least I saw someone called Alan Freeman on a financial talk show on the box > who was his spitting image. > (b) Alan Freeman or a PhD called Brian Read .... I think Alan.... was > responsible for a PDP-8 game .... ca. 1965. > Push buttons, a CRT display and a loudspeaker. Two highly stylized > tanks drawn on the CRT. You chase the other tank and fire your gun at > it with much bleeping from the loudspeaker. All 2D and crude by today's > standards .... but must have been one of the early examples of such a > thing? (I remember playing this - GT. I think it predated arcade games like asteroids. The tanks were in a very similar vein to Asteroids but it was a much simpler game. Two player, however!) > I have a fair pile of the original departmental reports. Unfortunately > about half were chucked only 6 months ago so those left tend to reflect my > particular soft spots. > (d) An outfit called the English Language Research Unit was (I think) > merged into the newly formed Computer Science Dept. bringing Hamish Dewar > and Paul Bratley. ELRU had produced a program which could produce > all the parses of ambiguous English sentences more or less in real > time. Consider "He rolled up the red carpet"! > The interesting thing about this was that it had a fixed dictionary > of only about 600 words .... no content words. I don't know where > Paul Bratley ended up. > (e) David Rees was a PhD student at about this time. He designed a string > handling language called Astra and wrote a compiler for it. These were > in essence the string handling extensions to Atlas Autocode which were > subsequently incorporated into IMP. > He may also be able to fill in details of what Paul Bratley did. I've asked DJR about Astra. > EMAS had substantial performance advantages over standard ICL operating > systems running on the same hardware. It in fact ran ICL programs on a VME > emulator faster than the real VME. I still wonder whether the "Director" > based scheduling strategy and mapped filesystem was in fact more effective > than the strategies used in currrent day multi-programming systems. > > IMP in its day was practically unique in being a language with substantial > diagnostic assistance which could also be used "in anger" as a fast > economical systems language. Subsequently Ada is perhaps the only > mainstream language of which this can be said? > > The "3rd pass" - consolidation phase - of the Peter Robertson compilers was > again in its day unique. I remember being told at Cebit about 8 years > later by a very proud compiler writer that they'd dreamed up this wonderful > way of fixing short jumps -- which featured heavily in their > advertising. Peter's compilers did far more long before and the Mouses > 32-bit Perkin-Elmer variant did a whole lot more again. > > Prof Wulf's "Optimising Compiler" book contains a PDP-11 coding sequence > for Ackermann, generated by his compiler, which he asserts was optimal > because he himself could not handcode it more tightly. Unfortunately > Peter's PDP-11 IMP compiler takes 2 instructions off the "optimal" code > displayed in the book. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980657334/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-17-980807989-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Jan 29 16:06:46 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA03314 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:06:41 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-17-980807989-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jan 2001 22:39:49 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 29 Jan 2001 22:39:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 31918 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2001 22:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 29 Jan 2001 22:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Jan 2001 23:22:09 -0000 Received: from cableinet.co.uk ([194.117.136.78]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:22:37 +0000 Message-ID: <3A75EDDB.8DC8B8E1@cableinet.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com References: <200101280359.VAA07748@admin.vt.com> From: Gordon Hughes MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:25:31 +0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] More GDMR info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Everyone, > Also who in the area can physically read old tapes. Of any description. I can read half inch VMS tapes at 800/1600/3200/6250 bpi. I also have the TAPEANAL command which is useful for non-VMS tapes. best regards J. Gordon Hughes jgh@cableinet.co.uk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980807989/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-18-980827861-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Jan 29 21:38:49 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA13682 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:38:47 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-18-980827861-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2001 04:11:58 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 30 Jan 2001 04:11:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 98360 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2001 03:57:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Jan 2001 03:57:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jan 2001 03:57:48 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA13185 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:24:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101300324.VAA13185@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:24:33 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Tape formats Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I can read half inch VMS tapes at 800/1600/3200/6250 bpi. > I also have the TAPEANAL command which is useful for non-VMS tapes. > > best regards > > J. Gordon Hughes > jgh@cableinet.co.uk That's great news from Gordon; I think the chances of us taking him up on that offer are quite high :-) My own memory of tapes is from Unix, and I think what I remember is that they had very little structure at all; generally Unix tapes are a straight dump of a tar file to tape with cpio or dd. So if Gordon can physically read any tapes and just get the raw bytes in a file, I'm very confident we can strip any ISO headers etc off by hand in the worst case and recover the internal data. Actually I had forgotten this, but it's coming back to me now: I wrote lots of tape handling utilities when I was working at Acorn. I believe I kept sources. Guess what - they're on a 6250bpi tape :-) Oh dear, little bootstrap problem there :-) The only trickiness I remember was something about writing 'tape marks' which I think were 0-length blocks, and something about end of tape (or maybe end of dataset?) being denoted by a double tapemark. I seem to remember it was sometimes difficult to read past a double tape mark and make sure you got every dataset on the tape and not just the first one. I wonder what other kinds of tapes we'll find... Those tapes seemed huge at the time. I just looked them up on the net and they were in fact only 180Mb. We could store 450 of these tapes on a single 80Gb disk costing $300. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980827862/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-19-980828642-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Jan 29 21:50:54 2001 Received: from hi.egroups.com (hi.egroups.com [208.50.99.211]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA14068 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:50:51 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-19-980828642-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2001 04:24:03 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 30 Jan 2001 04:24:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 97138 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2001 04:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Jan 2001 04:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jan 2001 04:13:06 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA13707 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:39:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101300339.VAA13707@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:39:51 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] JHB's resources Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO John Butler thinks he can get an APM to run, and thinks that Rainer may have an exabyte with the last source dump. JHB also has an RL01 with Brian Gilmore's DEIMOS operating system (and his MSc dissertation). I'd like to ask JHB to contact Brian for us to get a release. Maybe also he'd be a good person to ask about the lost EMAS source checkpoint, and maybe even the old ERCC backup tapes. Would anyone who sees Rainer today mind pointing him at the web site please? He says he knows where to track down a working PDP11 with an 8" floppy and an RK05/RL01 drive in case we need to read those. And he has a paper tape reader and a new 5.25" PC floppy drive so we can still read 5.25" disks etc. in a PC. (There are some programs around to copy complete disk images, if we hit any old formats we can't easily decode, such as p-machine floppies). We can always recover the data from the raw images later. Contact me if you can't find such a program and need one, I have it somewhere on one of my PCs. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980828642/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-23-981490103-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Tue Feb 6 13:34:53 2001 Received: from mu.egroups.com (mu.egroups.com [64.211.240.238]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03578 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:34:51 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-23-981490103-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Feb 2001 20:08:25 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 6 Feb 2001 20:08:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 72951 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2001 20:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Feb 2001 20:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Feb 2001 21:09:26 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA03570 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:34:39 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102061934.NAA03570@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:34:39 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Next task... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Well, we seem to have run out of steam in identifying old archives, so it seems like it's time to move on to the next stage of the project: fetching what we have already identified and putting it online in an archive. I am setting up a new FTP server this week and it should be online for next Monday. At that point we'll start contacting everyone who offered code and ask you to FTP it to us. Anyone whose code is not already online could usefully use this coming week to find it and put it on a net-connected machine somewhere. If you have old tapes, remember JGH may be able to read them for you. Thanks Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981490103/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-24-981513887-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Tue Feb 6 20:11:12 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA16545 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:11:11 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-24-981513887-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2001 02:44:48 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 7 Feb 2001 02:44:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 77600 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2001 02:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Feb 2001 02:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 02:44:43 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id UAA16527; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:11:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102070211.UAA16527@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:11:01 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] FTP AREA IS READY! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thanks to my wife, who has 57Gb free on the hard drive of her Win2K PC, we now have an FTP area for uploads for the History Project. Connect to "ftp.gtoal.com" using FTP - username ftp or anonymous - no password needed, although it's polite to give your email address. cd to /uploads You will be able to see the names of files in that directory but you will not be able to fetch any files from it. (I will be manually transferring uploads from here to our web site) You will however be able to put files *to* it, and to create sub-directories under it (using the mkdir command). I chose to set it up this way so that if the info about the site's existence spreads past our little trustworthy group, it won't be abused by warez pirates or mp3 hounds - people who like to upload to public ftp sites then tell their friends where they can go to download stuff from. This is an upload-only site - no downloads. so if anyone does upload any junk, it'll be a nice present for me, but not for the friends that they intended it for :-) Please start sending your goodies. If you want to create subdirectories under your name to keep things organised, you're welcome to. Or you can create subdirectories with appropriate names like 'compilers' or whatever - it's entirely open for you. It would be very helpful if you also mailed to thelist (or me directly) with a description or just a list of what you uploaded. Uploads should be relatively fast; I have a 1.1Mb SDSL to my ISP, who has a T1 to the net. The T1 may be loaded to some extent during the US peak times but probably it will be very fast during the periods that most UK people are free to do this sort of stuff. I don't forsee net bandwidth being a limiting factor. Thank you everyone for contributing! Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981513887/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-20-981085549-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Feb 1 21:12:39 2001 Received: from jj.egroups.com (jj.egroups.com [208.50.144.82]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA14923 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:12:34 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-20-981085549-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2001 03:45:50 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 03:45:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 39541 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 03:45:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 03:45:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 04:46:53 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA14908; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:12:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102020312.VAA14908@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:12:23 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Great news! Donald Michie is helping us! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I pass the following letter on with permission. It has been lightly edited to remove some irrelevant remarks. We are VERY lucky to have Donald Michie as a contributor. I'm giving serious thought to flying over to Scotland in July myself to help examine and scan/OCR his archive! He doesn't explicitly mention having any old source code, but even if there's no code, we really must transfer as much of this history to online media as we can. I'll ask him if he has anything in electronic form. I don't personally know much about the MIRU; I remember Rae R giving me a tour and showing me some of the early Computer Chess work. I'm looking forward to learning some of this history myself. Graham > Dear Graham Toal > > I have an archive brimming with documentation > of every kind covering the early days, -- technical > reports, minutes of the weekly staff meetings in the > EPU and DMI, correspondence galore with University > Admin and Court, with international AI scientists, > with visitors and Machine Intelligence Workshop > contributors, with editors, authors, other Departments > of the University at that time, proposals, manifestos > and goodness knows what else. > > There is in addition a complete History of the > Machine Intelligence Research Unit written by > my wife, then a member of the said MIRU. The > special point of interest is that it documents > an organization that had a ten-year run, from > 1974 - 1984. But its existence and history > remains I believe almost entirely unknown. This > is because a usual account of events is that after > the departure from Edinburgh of Professors Richard > Gregory (who left in 1970) and Christopher Longuet- > Higgins (around 1974) I also departed, to Glasgow > to found the Turing Institute, at the same time > that the Department of Artificial Intelligence was > being set up in Edinburgh. In actuality I did not > leave for Glasgow and set up the TI until 1984. > > The dramatic collapse of funding following the > Lighthill report temporarily stranded a community > of several dozen AI research workers. The > University had to set up new structures and a > new mission for as many as could be retained > in Edinburgh. > > The DAI was the main result. In the process > each person was asked whether he or she would > accept assignment to undergraduate teaching. > Uniquely, my University post was a so-called > Personal Chair. In those days such appointments > carried no teaching obligation. Never having > done any teaching in my life, I opted out. I > also had private doubts about whether the field > had yet sufficiently matured to support > undergraduate courses*. > > The University accordingly set up two Departments, > of which the DAI was one. The other, named the > Machine Intelligence Research Unit, consisted of > myself, my secretary, and 1/11th of the time of > Dr Horace Townsend, of the medical faculty. We > were allotted space for four postgraduate > students. One or two self-funded workers also > attached themselves, including Jean Hayes who > ten years later wrote the History, and there > was also a constant stream of visiting workers > from overseas. So although from the outside > the MIRU was almost invisible, it had a vigorous > internal life and a steady and varied output. > It was quite unbelievably crowded and chronically > broke. But in its peculiar way the MIRU was fun. > > My boxes of documents are of course overkill > from your point of view. I am sure you will only > want to retain or copy a few fragments. At the > same time it seems pointless to try to offer > anything from here in Australia. > > It will be best, I think to wait until I get > back, unfortunately not until July 1st. I will > be delighted then to get access to my files > and give you the run of them. > > For the Computer Science Dept history, Peter > Schofield's memory should stretch back to the > beginning. He also contributed an excellent > paper to one of the first two Machine Intelligence > volumes. > > Best wishes > > Donald Michie > > > *My doubts were soon refuted by the newly- > formed DAI's publication of the world's > first-ever AI textbook. Written by Alan Bundy, > Rod Burstall and Pat Ambler this set a standard > that no subsequent text that I have seen has > come near. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981085549/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-21-981090588-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Feb 1 22:36:29 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA16794 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:36:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-21-981090588-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2001 05:09:49 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 05:09:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 82708 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 05:09:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 05:09:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 05:09:47 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA16789 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:36:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102020436.WAA16789@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:36:22 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Early AI Research Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I mailed Robin Popplestone at umass and got this response: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:06:55 -0500 (EST) From: Robin Popplestone To: gtoal@gtoal.com Subject: This is a recording... [Re: Edinburgh History] This is an autoresponder. I will not be reading my e-mail for the entire summer. Your message will be read when I return. -- Robin Popplestone Given that it's currently snowing in Mass, I suspect that message is *long* out of date. Does anyone know where he might be nowadays that he actually gets mail? Also I'ld like to track down Pat Ambler who was my tutor for AI2. I mailed Ilona Bellos too but didn't get a reply; I suspect an out of date email address. I found this page with a good recap of the early people from AI: -------- Sat Jun 7 17:54:25 BST 1997 Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.ai.philosophy References: <5l792s$6to@news.ox.ac.uk> <5md82c$al12@dionysus.netmatters.co.uk> From: AaronSloman@cs.bham.ac.nospam (Aaron Sloman See text for reply address) Subject: Re: AI and Deep Blue (Historical correction) [Correct email address is at the end] a.croxton@netmatters.co.uk (al c) makes a historical mistake, which I guess I should correct in case others believe it: > Date: 26 May 1997 23:58:04 GMT > Organization: ABCDevelopment > > Aaron Sloman (founding father of British AI) wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Correction: by the time I started learning about AI, it was already well established in Britain. I started learning about AI in 1969 when I met Max Clowes at Sussex University. He was the person who persuaded me that the best way to address most philosophical questions was to explore issues concerned with designing working minds, human-like and others. Max was one of the leading UK AI vision researchers before I had even heard about AI. (He died around 1980 unfortunately). I also learnt a huge amount when I spent a year (1972-3) at Edinburgh University, where there were already a lot of well established AI researchers, including Donald Michie (probably the the person with the best claim to be the UK's founding father of AI) Rod Burstall Christopher Longet-Higgins He led the epistemics group Steve Isard Julian Davies Bernard Meltzer He led the computational logic group Pat Hayes (moved to a lectureship at Essex just as I arrived) Steve Salter designer of Freddy the robot's mechanics Robin Popplestone Pat Ambler Harry Barrow Bob Kowalski PhD students included Geoff Hinton, Alan Bundy, David Warren, and several others (including several people from the USA who thought the Edinburgh AI group was well worth visiting: e.g. Americans there included Danny Bobrow, J Moore, Bob Boyer, Chris Brown, Frank Brown, and others.). All of those listed above have a better claim than I have to be called founders of AI in the UK. A lot of very good work had been done by then (1973) in Edinburgh (including some interesting robotics work which is now totally ignored by some roboticists of the 1990s who tend to think they invented it all, and who have no idea how difficult it was to do AI with the computers available then, which took several minutes to find the outline of a teacup in a digitised image, ruling out any possibility of "online" control of action. The idea that there can be important trade-offs between software complexity and physical design was well understood, at least in some contexts: of course the label "situated" had not become fashionable yet). ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981090588/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-22-981103706-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Feb 2 02:15:14 2001 Received: from jk.egroups.com (jk.egroups.com [208.50.144.83]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA14768 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 02:15:14 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-22-981103706-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2001 08:48:27 -0000 X-Sender: gordon@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 08:48:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 62175 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 08:48:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 08:48:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 08:48:25 -0000 Received: from tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.36]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id IAA09939 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:48:24 GMT Received: (from gordon@localhost) by tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA10966; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:48:23 GMT Message-ID: <14970.29783.742034.276615@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200102020436.WAA16789@admin.vt.com> References: <200102020436.WAA16789@admin.vt.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid From: Gordon Brebner MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:48:23 +0000 (GMT) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Early AI Research Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I mailed Robin Popplestone at umass and got this response: > > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:06:55 -0500 (EST) > From: Robin Popplestone > To: gtoal@gtoal.com > Subject: This is a recording... [Re: Edinburgh History] > > This is an autoresponder. > > I will not be reading my e-mail for the entire summer. > Your message will be read when I return. > -- Robin Popplestone > > Given that it's currently snowing in Mass, I suspect that message > is *long* out of date. Does anyone know where he might be nowadays > that he actually gets mail? This one isn't too hard - he's spending a sabbatical year here in JCMB!! In fact, I remember noticing that you had him as one of the recipients on your very first mailing (robin@dcs.ed.ac.uk). Gordon. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981103707/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-25-985131292-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Tue Mar 20 16:58:58 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22823 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:58:56 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-25-985131292-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Mar 2001 23:34:52 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 20 Mar 2001 23:34:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 34933 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2001 23:34:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Mar 2001 23:34:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO f19.egroups.com) (10.1.2.136) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Mar 2001 23:34:50 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.106] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Mar 2001 23:34:50 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <998peo+oo1q@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.104.172.1 From: "Graham Toal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:34:48 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Kicking this project back into life... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello folks. Just over a month back I had some personal stuff to take care of, and I didn't have time to ride herd on this project group. Actually I was rather hoping that if I was quiet for a few days, someone in the Edinburgh area would step in and do some organising in my absence. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way, and then I had an illness, followed by my DSL line (and therefore our web and ftp servers) also being sick for a couple of weeks. All that is taken care of now, and I'm back at the wheel. Fotunately this is a project that doesn't have too heavy time constraints, as long as no-one trashes anything that we'd identified as wanting to keep. We can afford quiet periods, but on the other hand I think it is important to keep a momentum going, lest any outsiders we ask for help get the impression that we're not taking it seriously. Incidentally, Ian, although not free at the moment, is hoping to have some leisure time in a month or so and I'll be twisting his arm as much as he'll let me to involve him in some ground work in Edinburgh. We did pretty well in the first few weeks when this project started, in identifying some of the old work that we'd like to preserve. I'ld like us to spend the next 3-4 weeks doing something concrete and actually getting some of the files online at our ftp server (ftp.gtoal.com). To this end (rather than put anyone on the spot by posting here) I intend to drop a few private mails to various of the people who offered to help, over the next week, suggesting some specific tasks that they might do. This next month's target is to get enough of a start and items online that our web site looks serious; I'm hoping that this will kick-start donations to the site which should then continue to roll in at a constant rate. If anyone needs help, and it is something I'm able to help with, you may ask me for help at any time. There is quite a lot I can do that isn't constrained by the fact that I'm 3000 miles from Edinburgh. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/n4HqaC/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/BE_UlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-26-996275443-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jul 27 18:08:26 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29632 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:08:25 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-26-996275443-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2001 23:10:43 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 90079 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.45) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.111] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9jssdg+ng2l@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <998peo+oo1q@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 From: "Graham Toal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:10:40 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Kicking this project back into life... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO This is a content-free posting because Yahoo is about to delete the group because of 90 days inactivity :-( So I need to post something to keep it alive. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-27-998300511-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 04:38:11 2001 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.65]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09600 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 04:38:11 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-27-998300511-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 09:41:51 -0000 X-Sender: margo.hutchison@strath.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 09:41:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 30549 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 09:41:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 09:41:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.52) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 09:41:48 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: margo.hutchison@strath.ac.uk Received: from [10.1.10.63] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 09:41:48 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 130.159.248.44 From: margo.hutchison@strath.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:41:43 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello, I'm just passing through - I stumbled across your group while searching for something else, and and found your archives fascinating. Just wanted to post a message of encouragement (and it keeps Yahoo off oyur backs for a bit!) As a Cobol programmer on ICL VME machines I used a version of ECCE for about 12 years (1986-98?) at SSEB/ScottishPower before it was phased out in favour of something universal but inferior, so it's great to hear that you guys are trying to preserve the original. I wonder if it was a commercial success? Margo To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-28-998300948-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 04:45:25 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09791 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 04:45:25 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-28-998300948-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 09:49:08 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 09:49:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 23781 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 09:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 09:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 09:49:07 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-72-238-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.72.238] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15Ylg1-0001xs-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:48:58 -0400 Message-ID: <001801c1295d$5771aed0$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:48:48 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Margo Welcome to the group - I just joined recently when I discovered that I've been dancing at ceilidhs with Hamish Dewar for years and didn't realise it was the same Hamish that was at the CS Dept back in the 80s! >> ...used a version of ECCE for about 12 years (1986-98?) << Wow, I'm surprised and impressed that it lasted until 98! I wonder if there's a version for PCs? I remember when Hamish wrote VECCE and I found it a bit strange at first to have the ability to move the cursor around the text and edit it in place! Mike Scott http://mikescommunity.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-29-998304343-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 05:42:04 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA11228 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:42:04 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-29-998304343-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 10:45:44 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 10:45:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 73684 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 10:45:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 10:45:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 10:45:29 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7KAjRx26400 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:45:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from [128.240.2.185] (knott10.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.2.185]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05093 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:45:24 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 3.4 (cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:42:56 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >I'm just passing through - I stumbled across your group while >searching for something else, and and found your archives fascinating. >Just wanted to post a message of encouragement (and it keeps Yahoo off >oyur backs for a bit!) As a Cobol programmer on ICL VME machines I >used a version of ECCE for about 12 years (1986-98?) at >SSEB/ScottishPower before it was phased out in favour of something >universal but inferior, so it's great to hear that you guys are trying >to preserve the original. I wonder if it was a commercial success? There have been dozens of versions of ecce over the years. I have most recently made versions for the Macintosh, both as a native application and as an extension to run within BBEdit (my favourite editor on the Mac). The version that I run on Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.7 Generic October 1998 is based on Pascal source. You will find the source and manual page in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.pas http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.doc The calling shell-script and SunOS 5.7 binary are in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/bin/ecce http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/bin/ecce1 Any use of the above source or object is (of course) entirely at your own risk. I also have C++ source for the Macintosh and for Unix/Linux. These are all based on versions of ecce that date from the mid to late sixties. (From the man page): H. Whitfield, Computing Laboratory, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU. This editor is based upon older versions by H. Dewar and others of the Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh. The original version was probably written in IMP (a development from Atlas Autocode). Over the years I (and many others) have produced versions coded in various programming languages including Algol 60, Fortran, Pascal, C/C++ etc. One advantage of ecce was that it was easy to port to a new machine, and could often be got to work first time, so that one did not need to learn a new editor. Over the years, people at Edinburgh made other versions, including versions that worked on VDUs and provided a multi-line display format. I don't know whether any of those versions still exist. I have made versions for my own use on Unix and the Macintosh. As ecce does not have a modern GUI, I tend to use it (on the Mac) within BBEdit rather than as a stand-alone application. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-30-998304817-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 05:49:55 2001 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA11445 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:49:54 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-30-998304817-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 87247 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-72-238-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.72.238] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15YmgR-0003JJ-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:53:27 -0400 Message-ID: <003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:53:16 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Harry Thanks for the info re ecce, especially the location of source code which I'll go grab right now! Do you have any ideas about vecce source? I'll try asking Hamish Dewar and see if he still has it, though it will be in IMP. Mike Scott http://mikescommunity.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-31-998305888-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 06:07:45 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA11931 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:07:45 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-31-998305888-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 11:11:29 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 11:11:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 20738 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 11:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 11:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 11:11:27 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7KBBQx01333 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:11:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from [128.240.2.185] (knott10.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.2.185]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14889 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:11:25 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> <003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 3.4 (cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:11:19 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >Thanks for the info re ecce, especially the location of source code which >I'll go grab right now! Do you have any ideas about vecce source? I'll try >asking Hamish Dewar and see if he still has it, though it will be in IMP. Sorry - I think that all my efforts are based on pre-1972 versions of ecce. I'll put my C++ source on my web site in next few days, as that may be of more use to some people than the Pascal source. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-32-998306265-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 06:14:02 2001 Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.54]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA12109 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:14:01 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-32-998306265-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 11:17:45 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 11:17:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 35191 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 11:17:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 11:17:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 11:17:44 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-72-238-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.72.238] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15Yn3m-0003sa-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:17:34 -0400 Message-ID: <004b01c12969$b88c4570$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com><003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:17:25 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Harry >> I'll put my C++ source on my web site in next few days, as that may be of more use to some people than the Pascal source. << Thanks for that. However, since I was a student in the Pascal days, I'm now a consultant specialising in Delphi which uses Pascal so the source I just grabbed will do nicely! If I get time I'll try to do a PC/Windows version and I'll email the source for that back to you if you like. Cheers. Mike Scott http://mikescommunity.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-33-998311810-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 07:46:26 2001 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.59]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA14692 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:46:26 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-33-998311810-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 12:50:10 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 12:50:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 9076 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.229.35) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7KCo3I21029 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:50:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from [128.240.2.185] (knott11.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.2.186]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14948 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:50:01 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004b01c12969$b88c4570$0200a8c0@gonzales> References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com><003d01c12 966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> <004b01c12969$b88c4570$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 3.4 (cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:49:15 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Mike (et al), > >> I'll put my C++ source on my web site in next few days, as that may be of >more use to some people than the Pascal source. << I've revised my ecce page: http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.html I've also linked my Linux and Macintosh C++ source. >Thanks for that. However, since I was a student in the Pascal days, I'm now >a consultant specialising in Delphi which uses Pascal so the source I just >grabbed will do nicely! > >If I get time I'll try to do a PC/Windows version and I'll email the source >for that back to you if you like. I'd be pleased to see that and to have a .exe file. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-34-998318061-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 09:30:41 2001 Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.57]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA18789 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:30:40 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-34-998318061-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:34:21 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 14:34:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 38421 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 14:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 14:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.219) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 14:32:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.106] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:32:56 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9lr72k+2roq@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 From: "Graham Toal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:32:52 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Harry Whitfield wrote: > The version that I run on > > Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.7 Generic October 1998 > > is based on Pascal source. > > You will find the source and manual page in > > http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.p as Just for grins, here's my C version: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce.c Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-35-998318786-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 09:42:42 2001 Received: from n26.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.76]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19275 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:42:42 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-35-998318786-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:46:26 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 14:46:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 64483 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 14:45:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 14:45:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.55) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 14:45:05 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.120] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:44:45 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9lr7os+lsil@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 From: "Graham Toal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:44:44 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., wrote: > Hi Harry > > Thanks for the info re ecce, especially the location of source code which > I'll go grab right now! Do you have any ideas about vecce source? I'll try > asking Hamish Dewar and see if he still has it, though it will be in IMP. I have the EMAS source of Vecce I think. I had about 1500 BBC Micro floppies which I uploaded to my PC over the last 6 months and I'm fairly sure I remember spotting Vecce among them (also compare). It may take me some time to find it again (I have 1500 directories named disk0001 through disk1500 approximately!) as I don't have an indexer like Alta Vista running on my PC at the moment, but I'll find it eventually. (And PC's aren't as easy just to kick off a large recursive grep, as Unix is :-( ) I guess the archive is finally going to have some content! Great! I'll start organising it and linking to the web page. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-36-998322108-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 10:38:04 2001 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21459 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:38:03 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-36-998322108-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 15:41:48 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 15:41:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 41361 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 15:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 15:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 15:41:23 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-72-238-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.72.238] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15YrAu-0003zE-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:41:12 -0400 Message-ID: <008001c1298e$8d2c2560$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <9lr7os+lsil@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:40:44 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Graham >> It may take me some time to find it again (I have 1500 directories named disk0001 through disk1500 approximately!) as I don't have an indexer like Alta Vista running on my PC at the moment, but I'll find it eventually. (And PC's aren't as easy just to kick off a large recursive grep, as Unix is :-( ) << It's only easy on *nix if you know the command. DOS is no different: dir vec*.* /s to do a recursive file search grep is more of a problem. I had an old DOS grep years ago but I don't know where that is. However, you could try these sites: http://oakroadsystems.com/sharware/grep.htm for a shareware DOS version. http://www.albedo.net/~arvic/fw-dos.html for a freeware version Mike Scott http://mikescommunity.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-37-998342432-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 16:17:44 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10202 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:17:43 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-37-998342432-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 21:20:32 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 21:20:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 91777 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 21:19:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 21:19:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 21:19:32 -0000 Received: from jgh2 ([62.31.70.200]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:19:40 +0100 Message-ID: <007b01c129be$717e1d20$c8461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> <001801c1295d$5771aed0$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:24:06 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Everyone, > >> ...used a version of ECCE for about 12 years (1986-98?) << > > Wow, I'm surprised and impressed that it lasted until 98! I wonder if > there's a version for PCs? I remember when Hamish wrote VECCE and I found it > a bit strange at first to have the ability to move the cursor around the > text and edit it in place! That's nothing, I still use VECCE on a daily basis (VMS), and even ECCE too sometimes (Solaris)! (I did once have a PC version, but really prefer EMACS to ECCE for most PC editing.) Here is a question when might appeal to the group - I am writing a paper on my companies Automation techniques for the USA, and I was going to mention the programming language used - Imp! What do people think is the best reference to give for it? My thoughts are to use Peter Robertson's EUCSD report from 1979. There was also a Lattice Logic edition of the same document from the early 1980s, but I think the University one is probably the better reference. Any other ideas? I think using a later reference is better than any of the EMAP projects from the late 60's early 70's! best regards Gordon Hughes %end %of %file [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-38-998343373-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 16:33:25 2001 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10736 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:33:25 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-38-998343373-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 21:36:13 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 21:36:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 33332 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 21:36:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 21:36:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 21:36:05 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA10674 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:31:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200108202131.QAA10674@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:31:48 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Automation techniques for the USA, and I was going to mention the programming language > used - Imp! What do people think is the best reference to give for it? > > My thoughts are to use Peter Robertson's EUCSD report from 1979. There was also a Lattice > Logic edition of the same document from the early 1980s, but I think the University one is > probably the better reference. Any other ideas? I think using a later reference is better than > any of the EMAP projects from the late 60's early 70's! The big question is, are any of them actually available to someone who wanted to follow up the reference? I think I have the 3L version somewhere, and I know I have Robertson's thesis. As of course must he, and he does read this list I think, so maybe he can put either one on the web? I'ld be happy to scan either to a pdf with his permission, though I have to say that would take me several weeks. Graham PS ftp.gtoal.com is still available for uploads, Gordon. [Hint, hint!] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-39-1007010764-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Nov 28 23:10:31 2001 Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.57]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA17890 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:10:30 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-39-1007010764-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n7.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2001 05:12:45 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 29 Nov 2001 05:12:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 17819 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 05:12:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2001 05:12:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.56) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2001 05:12:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.95] by n6.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2001 05:12:43 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9u4g4c+n7ff@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 X-eGroups-Announce: yes From: "Graham Toal" X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:12:44 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] This isn't working, is it? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello again folks, I'm prompted to write because I've just finished reading "The Difference Engine" by Doron Swade; a fairly readable and unbiased history of Charles Babbage; followed by the story of the restoration of the Difference Engine done by the Science Museum. I recommend it as a good but slightly depressing read. (Depressing in the sense of it is clear that even 150 years ago Babbage's project was doomed by being run in that peculiarly British academic style; if he had been managed and taken to America I'm convinced we'd be 50 years further down the Moore's Law curve by now) The good thing about the book however is no matter how many failures it catalogs, its one success story is the restoration project, which despite many setbacks (mostly managerial/ staffing/financial), did succeed in the end. It is clear to me that *our* project is not going anywhere. If I were in Scotland I would be running around making a nuisance of myself and getting disks and tapes off everyone, but that just doesn't work remotely and no-one in Scotland appears willing to do legwork. I'm thinking that perhaps the self-motivated amateur effort is not the best way to carry out this project. The Difference Engine project was able to raise over quarter of a million to get one piece of equipment restored. Perhaps we should be looking at getting funding for this project, creating a post of historian, and tackling it seriously? I throw out this suggestion to the list, but really it's really directed to Gordon Brebner as I think he's the only person capable of finding finding and creating such a post. I'm thinking something like $75 - $100K would fund staff and hardware. Given the University's history with ICL and ICL's close connection with one of our biggest projects, EMAS, perhaps ICL would be the sensible company to approach first. They co-funded the Babbage project most enthusiatically, according to the book, and this project would be much closer to home for them. However if any of our members know any industry moguls with a nostalgic streak for Edinburgh, don't be reticent to float a trial balloon in their direction. The Science Museum's Difference Engine project is something that has to be seen in person -- the online description is pitiful (http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/collections/exhiblets/babbage/start.a sp) and really only makes sense after you buy the book written by the person who happens to be Assistant Director of the Science Museum. The web pages in fact seem to be a tiny precis extracted from the book - and they don't include *any* of the juicy details you really want to know such as Babbage's "Mechanical Notation" Our project would be a permanent online exhibit, done professionally. I would give serious thought to taking a sabattical from my employment in Texas to go do this thing if no-one else would, if it were funded properly. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/gwUrIA/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-40-1007011145-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Nov 28 23:16:49 2001 Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.73]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA18185 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:16:49 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-40-1007011145-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2001 05:19:07 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 29 Nov 2001 05:19:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 38365 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 05:19:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2001 05:19:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.64) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2001 05:19:06 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.66] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2001 05:20:21 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9u4gg9+t8i2@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 X-eGroups-Announce: yes From: "Graham Toal" X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:19:05 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] This isn't working, is it? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello again folks, I'm prompted to write because I've just finished reading "The Difference Engine" by Doron Swade; a fairly readable and unbiased history of Charles Babbage; followed by the story of the restoration of the Difference Engine done by the Science Museum. I recommend it as a good but slightly depressing read. (Depressing in the sense of it is clear that even 150 years ago Babbage's project was doomed by being run in that peculiarly British academic style; if he had been managed and taken to America I'm convinced we'd be 50 years further down the Moore's Law curve by now) The good thing about the book however is no matter how many failures it catalogs, its one success story is the restoration project, which despite many setbacks (mostly managerial/ staffing/financial), did succeed in the end. It is clear to me that *our* project is not going anywhere. If I were in Scotland I would be running around making a nuisance of myself and getting disks and tapes off everyone, but that just doesn't work remotely and no-one in Scotland appears willing to do legwork. I'm thinking that perhaps the self-motivated amateur effort is not the best way to carry out this project. The Difference Engine project was able to raise over quarter of a million to get one piece of equipment restored. Perhaps we should be looking at getting funding for this project, creating a post of historian, and tackling it seriously? I throw out this suggestion to the list, but really it's really directed to Gordon Brebner as I think he's the only person capable of finding finding and creating such a post. I'm thinking something like $75 - $100K would fund staff and hardware. Given the University's history with ICL and ICL's close connection with one of our biggest projects, EMAS, perhaps ICL would be the sensible company to approach first. They co-funded the Babbage project most enthusiatically, according to the book, and this project would be much closer to home for them. However if any of our members know any industry moguls with a nostalgic streak for Edinburgh, don't be reticent to float a trial balloon in their direction. The Science Museum's Difference Engine project is something that has to be seen in person -- the online description is pitiful (http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/collections/exhiblets/babbage/start.a sp) and really only makes sense after you buy the book written by the person who happens to be Assistant Director of the Science Museum. The web pages in fact seem to be a tiny precis extracted from the book - and they don't include *any* of the juicy details you really want to know such as Babbage's "Mechanical Notation" Our project would be a permanent online exhibit, done professionally. I would give serious thought to taking a sabattical from my employment in Texas to go do this thing if no-one else would, if it were funded properly. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/iHh8lD/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-193-1023897966-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 7 05:37:18 1960 Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.87]) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA02651 for ; Sat, 7 May 1960 05:37:15 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-193-1023897966-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jun 2002 16:06:06 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 12 Jun 2002 16:06:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 67052 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2002 16:06:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jun 2002 16:06:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jun 2002 16:06:04 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02631 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 7 May 1960 05:36:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <196005071036.FAA02631@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 7 May 1960 05:36:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some text processing history Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I found this today. It'll make a nice addition to our eventual web site. http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/bicaweb/b2/hanley.html Graham PS While I'm at it; http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bradley/qpg/lfcs.html http://medialab.dyndns.org/~martin/tape/gos/crap/hoe ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-194-1026338675-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 11:52:34 1960 Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06984 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 1960 11:52:18 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-194-1026338675-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2002 22:04:37 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Jul 2002 22:04:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 32524 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 22:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2002 22:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 22:04:35 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06979; Sat, 4 Jun 1960 11:51:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <196006041651.LAA06979@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 4 Jun 1960 11:51:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Visiting in August Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi folks; I expect to be in Scotland for 3 weeks in August - I'm hoping we can maybe organise a group get-together (although for my part it may have to be a more staid event than I'd prefer - I've recently found out I have diabetes, so booze is out of the question for me at least:-( ) Actually, my wife was asking me if I could arrange a Distillery visit for her, and I'm thinking we could double that as a group event. I know we have some experts on the subject in this group, including but not limited to JHB... Also if there's anything I can do to advance the project while I'm in town, I'd like to do it. By the way, Hamish reported last week that attempts to get files from the EMAS archive have not been as successful as we had hoped - for reasons I don't fully understand, very few ECSD staff files appear to have been preserved :-( I'll try to visit Andrew McKendrick and the Bish when I'm in town to see if there's anything can be done about this (assuming I can get in to the impenetrable fortress that the ERCC/EUCS has become!). Mail me if you have any ideas on how I can use my time in Edinburgh productively to advance the project (or if you just want to get together for a blether) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-195-1027071259-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 23:27:43 1960 Received: from n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.68]) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA19242 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 1960 23:26:58 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-195-1027071259-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2002 09:34:19 -0000 X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 19 Jul 2002 09:34:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 64926 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 09:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2002 09:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.174) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 09:34:17 -0000 Received: from modem-524.orangutan.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.226.12] helo=your07dtc7q2g9) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17VU9P-00045N-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:34:15 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c22f07$6f6e6ea0$0ce287d9@your07dtc7q2g9> To: References: <196006041651.LAA06979@gtoal.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:34:08 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Visiting in August Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Graham, Sorry not to have responded sooner, but I have been up in Shetland for a spot of bird-watching (feathered variety), fishing, dancing, and so forth. Had a great time, and the weather was a lot better than we have been having here in Edinburgh. I'd like to meet up when you are here. On present plans, I expect to be around for most of August except for the weekend of 9th to 11th. I look forward to seeing you again. Hamish. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/O3jeVD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-196-1028066600-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 10:32:52 1960 Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77]) by gtoal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA29136 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 1960 10:32:43 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-196-1028066600-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2002 22:03:20 -0000 X-Sender: mail@argonsecurities.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 30 Jul 2002 22:03:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 9144 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Anti_Pieman" X-Originating-IP: 62.6.99.189 X-Yahoo-Profile: Anti_Pieman MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:03:18 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] EMAS Programs Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I wrote a few programs which were run daily as part of the EMAS housekeeping in 1972/73, including ACCOUNTS ( primarily logging user activity ) and ERRORLOGGING. I may still have hard copy of the IMP code kicking about. Also I remember well a few games the Operators on night shift on the ICL 4/75 used to play; the Lunar Lander ( which I think was pinched from the PDP11 upstairs at ERCC ) a golf game which it was rumoured was written by either Peter Stephens or maybe Andrew McKendrick and a superb football game which gave a very exciting commentary on matches where Hearts always won. Ah the power of virtual reality. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NsdPZD/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-262-1033587237-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 14:35:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.91]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g92JZ7724833 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:35:07 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-262-1033587237-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2002 19:33:57 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 19:33:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 75542 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 19:33:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 19:33:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 19:33:50 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g92JYxQ24825; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:34:59 -0500 Message-Id: <200210021934.g92JYxQ24825@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:34:59 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Vax or Dec10 backup tapes? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1345 Does anyone on the list know if there was ever a full backup made of the department Vax at any time? (ecsvax) I can't imagine the system was decommissioned without at least one backup on record... Alan Mycroft thinks his ML code will be on there if a tape can be found. (Also - even more unlikely that we'll find it - does anyone know of any backups of the DEC10???) Things are progressing well on the EMAS side. Andrew McKendrick has given us an account on the CD archive system, and I am in the process of getting permissions from anyone I can track down to look at their old EMAS archives. I have found a listing of all the EMAS usernames so a forgotten account number is no longer a problem! Our first success from the EMAS archives was recovering AI2LOGO from Peter Ross's account at AI. I'm currently tracking down some other leads including a copy of PSR's "Impi" archived under ECSLIB. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-263-1033720015-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 03:28:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g948SK708233 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 03:28:20 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-263-1033720015-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2002 08:26:55 -0000 X-Sender: andy@nb-info.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 4 Oct 2002 08:26:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 98334 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2002 08:26:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2002 08:26:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO widow.nb-info.co.uk) (193.132.202.33) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Oct 2002 08:26:53 -0000 Received: from vaioandy (NBLan-36 [193.132.202.36]) by widow.nb-info.co.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/) with SMTP id JAA01952 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:26:51 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <004d01c26b7f$c6261b80$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> To: References: <1033633593.360.15358.m12@yahoogroups.com> Organization: NB Information Limited X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Andy Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: eucshistory MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:26:44 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] IMP compiler, anyone? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1506 OK, so I haven't been paying attention to all the discussions on this list, but I've got the impression that the number one barrier to resurrecting a lot of the old software writen in IMP is that no-one's got a working IMP compiler for a current working computer (PDP15 owners need not apply!). If I'm wrong, please can someone point me at their compiler. If I'm right, now is a good time to admit that I might just-so-happen-to-have a working Intel x86 IMP compiler that runs on, and compiles for, the ubiquitous PC. Many caveats apply - primarily that it is very rough at the edges and I'd be embarrassed to release it in the present state - but if anyone is interested I'd welcome some feedback. Andy Davis ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-264-1033728580-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 05:51:07 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.85]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g94Ap6709193 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 05:51:06 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-264-1033728580-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2002 10:49:40 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 4 Oct 2002 10:49:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 48606 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2002 10:49:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2002 10:49:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Oct 2002 10:49:39 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g94Ap4h09189 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 05:51:04 -0500 Message-Id: <200210041051.g94Ap4h09189@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 05:51:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] IMP compiler, anyone? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1511 > OK, so I haven't been paying attention to all the discussions on this > list, but I've got the impression that the number one barrier to > resurrecting > a lot of the old software writen in IMP is that no-one's got a working > IMP compiler for a current working computer (PDP15 owners need not > apply!). > > If I'm wrong, please can someone point me at their compiler. If I'm Well, actually we sort of do have an imp compiler, although it's not quite ready for use on large projects. Peter Stephens wrote one while at EPC and in his last few months there before retirement arranged with the company for permission to release it to us. The compiler was written in order to bootstrap other compilers written in Imp, and although it implements almost all of the language (it has no x86 embedded assembler is about the only deviation from a full traditional release) it has only the skimpiest of run-time library. And unfortunately the compiler was only really tested on other compilers; we've found that throwing almost any other source at it causes it to fail at compile time; generally if the compiler runs to completion, however, the generated code seems OK. So... now that Peter Stephens is enjoying his retirement, he is starting to work on Imp again and we hope that sometime this year we'll have a robust full version of Imp80 for Intel. The version we have currently is for Linux, and what Peter is working on at home at the moment is actually a Windows port, on account of he doesn't yet have a Unix system. To that end I have built one here in the US which I am going to mail him the hard drive of, but that was delayed a month when I recently had to take on some contracting work and other commitments. However my commitments end today as it happens, and I hope to get back to that task immediately. You can try the Linux version if you like. I put my last 'work in progress' snapshot on our web site at: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp80/ If you look in bin and lib you should be able to find enough to test with; the basic files you need are 'p5impcompiler' and 'libimp2.a'. There's also a little shell called "imp.c" you might compile locally to make it a little easier to invoke the compiler. The linux binaries for some reason refuse to run on some flavours of unix. We're not 100% sure why although we have an idea it's an internal ELF binary version flag problem. Also in there is Peter's Imp to C converter, which is in a similar state of repair to the Imp80 native compiler. Also to complicate the issue I've been hacking on both of these programs so the files in the snapshot are not the pristine clean version that Peter supplied (although the originals are buried in there somewhere should there be any modules that need to be reverted) > right, now is a good time to admit that I might just-so-happen-to-have > a working Intel x86 IMP compiler that runs on, and compiles for, the > ubiquitous PC. > > Many caveats apply - primarily that it is very rough at the edges and > I'd be embarrassed to release it in the present state - but if anyone is > interested I'd welcome some feedback. Well, we're *very* interested. The more the merrier in fact. Bob Eager also has half an Imp compiler written and we're hoping it too will come to fruition some day, maybe next year. Also Rainer toyed with the idea of writing one, and did some research into the language design and a parser, but put it aside when we got Peter Stephen's compiler and now his talents are being put to use on Imp15 and the PDP15 operating system instead. So... we now have quite a bit of imp code we'ld like to run some day and which you can use to exercise your compiler... point us at it! And I have a question: did you write this some time ago and only recently find or remember it... or have you been beavering away getting this working over recent months as a surprise for us?! (It worked; I'm gobsmacked!) Is it based on PSR's Imp77 by any chance? (I know you've written Imp77 back ends before) Tell us everything!!! Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-265-1033931476-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 14:11:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.91]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g96JBYl12217 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:11:34 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-265-1033931476-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Oct 2002 19:11:17 -0000 X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 6 Oct 2002 19:11:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 80407 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2002 19:11:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Oct 2002 19:11:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 2002 19:11:15 -0000 Received: from pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:11:15 +0100 Received: from tiny (unverified [62.30.72.207]) by pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:11:14 +0100 Message-ID: <004601c26d6b$ee4f5520$cf481e3e@tiny> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Rainer Thonnes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:09:42 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] IMP15 compiler resurrected Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1665 As reported a few weeks ago, Graham and I have typed in the source of the IMP15 compiler, dated 1978, from a paper listing which Ian Young had lying around at home. There was a faint hope that, once John Gray's DECtapes were read in Grenoble, assuming they contained a copy of the operating system and the prim/perm library, we might be able to fire it up under emulation, or possibly even on Grenoble's real live PDP9. But I couldn't wait that long, and there is a possibility that the DECtapes might not contain what we'd need, and since we were without copies of prim/perm sources, it seemed a good idea, given that emulation was going to be involved anyway, to emulate/simulate not just the behaviour of the PDP9 (or PDP15) instruction set, but also that of the prim routines themselves. It was relatively easy, aided by partial recall, to deduce from the compiler source what they were all expected to do, and to implement the required functionality at a higher level. Actually to re-write the perm from scratch in assembly code would have been much more tedious, not to mention error-prone. This approach also neatly obviated the need to emulate the underlying operating system, since interfacing to the file system of the host machine is much easier if you can intercept the I/O calls at the level of the interface between the language and perm rather than at the level of IOT instructions, especially when DECtapes are involved. I'm pleased to report that this exercise has been sufficiently succesful that I have been able to run the compiler, and to use it not only to compile and run an original 1975 ECCE source, but also to get the compiler to compile itself. The groundwork for all this was done by Graham, by using his automated IMP to C translator to provide a C version of the compiler, which I was able to compile and run on my Windows PC. Then all I had to do was write code to read, reverse, load, and run (emulate) the object code produced by feeding any IMP15 source file to Graham's C version of the compiler. My code is a self-contained program "run.c" of less than 1000 lines (actually less than 750 if comments and blank lines aren't counted). In the original IMP15 system the reverser was one of the component parts of the operating system (written in assembly language). It was automatically invoked whenever the compiler had successfully compiled a program. It did more than just turn the object file back to font, it amalgamated fragmented code and data sections, and also exbedded nested blocks, so that there was no need for the compiler to plant jumps around inner procedures. The loader, also an operating system module, expected the code to be in this reversed format, not because it helped with fixing up forward references (this was something the loader was not only well able to deal with itself, but was obliged to do in any case -- with the file reversed, backward references effectively became forward ones, and certainly no allocation of fixed addresses was done by the compiler, thus the file could be run on machines with any amount of memory), but simply to make it easy to load the file incrementally backwards from the high address end of memory, given that the resident supervisor sat at the low address end. Free memory was the space inbetween, from which file-processors allocated buffer blocks on demand upwards from the low end, while the compiler allocated space for arrays and recursive stack frames and complicated expressions downwards from the high end. The compiler reads (compiles) a file of specs for all the perm routines before tackling the main program itself. It is crucial that the spec file matches up with the run-time emulator, because prim/perm calls are matched up by tag numbers, so the order, and number of them, must be right. I'm about to send Graham the necessary files (RUN.C and PRIM.I15, together with mods I've had to make to the compiler itself, both the IMP version and his C version) and will leave him to say when they can be downloaded. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-266-1033934372-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 14:59:34 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g96JxXS01331 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:59:33 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-266-1033934372-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Oct 2002 19:59:32 -0000 X-Sender: andy@nb-info.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 6 Oct 2002 19:59:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 69376 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2002 19:59:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Oct 2002 19:59:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO widow.nb-info.co.uk) (193.132.202.33) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 2002 19:59:08 -0000 Received: from vaioandy (NBLan-36 [193.132.202.36]) by widow.nb-info.co.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/) with SMTP id UAA23755 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:59:03 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <000001c26d72$d20c0e60$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> To: References: <1033807279.466.23897.m12@yahoogroups.com> Organization: NB Information Limited X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Andy Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: eucshistory MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:51:24 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: IMP compiler, anyone? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1671 OK - more about what I've been up to. Being a little out of the loop I was not aware of all the other efforts in the background, but I was surprised by some of the recent chit-chat along the lines of "I've typed in this IMP program and perhaps one day it will run". So, I thought I would rustle up a compiler. I've done a SKIMP port in the past, and I've also done a full-blown IMP77 backend for another architecture. The snag with both of these is that they are written in IMP, and I haven't got an IMP compiler, so that's tricky. I know from experience that a back-end for the proper IMP77 compilers is actually easier than a SKIMP-style one pass compiler, but I didn't fancy implementing the first pass from scratch. But, I happen to have a copy of the first pass, in IMP, so all I need is a compiler that can compile the IMP compiler and I'm home free :-) The solution has been to re-implement SKIMP from scratch, in C. Actually, SKIMP was quite well documented by DJR, and I have some listings of bits of it, so I started by implementing standard SKIMP, exactly as all those years ago - but in C. Then I changed the code generator to be 8086 instead of the original SKIMP machine. That required writing a second pass to patch up the jumps - 8086'ers will know that you only get very short conditional jumps, so depending on the distance to the target you may have to go back and change the code you planted. And then I added a good selection of extensions. In fact, most of the language is there, except for: string resolution predicates maps namearrays real numbers and most crucially records And it works - at least as far as I have tested it. I'm looking for help in two areas. First, I need some IMP programs to try out on it! Point me at your tired and scruffy programs, and I'll turn them into EXE files. (No records/reals/predicates/maps please). More importantly, I need someone to tell me how to do records in SKIMP. It was set as a student exercise for goodness sake - it can't be that hard. My compiler is close enough in internal structure that if you've got a working solution for "standard IMP-written SKIMP" then I can move it over. Except that I'm stuck with how to do the link between names and tags. If you know the answer, please contact me off the list! > Well, we're *very* interested. The more the merrier in fact. Bob Eager > also has half an Imp compiler written and we're hoping it too will come > to fruition some day, maybe next year. Also Rainer toyed with the idea > of writing one, and did some research into the language design and a > parser, but put it aside when we got Peter Stephen's compiler and now > his talents are being put to use on Imp15 and the PDP15 operating system > instead. > > So... we now have quite a bit of imp code we'ld like to run some day and > which you can use to exercise your compiler... point us at it! > > And I have a question: did you write this some time ago and only recently > find or remember it... or have you been beavering away getting this working > over recent months as a surprise for us?! (It worked; I'm gobsmacked!) > > Is it based on PSR's Imp77 by any chance? (I know you've written Imp77 > back ends before) > > Tell us everything!!! > > Graham > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-267-1033934996-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 15:09:59 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.72]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g96K9vS01434 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:09:58 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-267-1033934996-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Oct 2002 20:09:56 -0000 X-Sender: andy@nb-info.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 6 Oct 2002 20:09:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 84259 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2002 20:07:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Oct 2002 20:07:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO widow.nb-info.co.uk) (193.132.202.33) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 2002 20:07:50 -0000 Received: from vaioandy (NBLan-36 [193.132.202.36]) by widow.nb-info.co.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/) with SMTP id VAA23902 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:07:46 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001201c26d74$09952b40$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> To: Organization: NB Information Limited X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Andy Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: eucshistory MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:07:46 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: IMP compiler, anyone? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1673 Oops - previous mail got sent before I finished typing it. The additional comments I had were: The reason I can't just publish the compiler at this stage is that the IO library is actually just some stubs that call the Microsoft C stdio library, so unless you've got the same Microsoft C/C++ development kit as I'm using (Visual C++ v1.52) then you'll not be able to get anywhere - watch this space for a solution. And, in reply to Graham's question, which was... >... did you write this some time ago and only recently > find or remember it... or have you been beavering away getting this working > over recent months as a surprise for us?! (It worked; I'm gobsmacked!) I started it on 15th September. There's a famous comment about software - "Good, Fast, Cheap - pick any two from three". This is definitely Fast and Cheap. When you see some of the object code it plants you'll die laughing. Andy Davis ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-268-1033959120-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 21:53:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.106]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g972rFS13954 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:53:16 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-268-1033959120-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Oct 2002 02:52:00 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 7 Oct 2002 02:51:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 96360 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2002 02:51:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Oct 2002 02:51:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Oct 2002 02:51:58 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g972q0g13932; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:52:00 -0500 Message-Id: <200210070252.g972q0g13932@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:52:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: IMP compiler, anyone? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1691 > The solution has been to re-implement SKIMP from scratch, in C. > Actually, SKIMP was quite well documented by DJR, and I have > some listings of bits of it, so I started by implementing standard > SKIMP, exactly as all those years ago - but in C. I hope DJR is still reading this list and appreciates what he started! As it happens... I did the same thing a few months ago as a test case for my parser generator, except rather than write a compiler I wrote a Skimp to C translator. It's not as kosher as your Skimp (I rewrote it from scratch without a reference manual) but you're welcome to have a look at it: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/skimp.e also in there you'll find a file I recently recovered from mag tape from when I worked at Acorn; I had built a 6809 second processor for the Beeb, and was writing the kernel for it in the version of Skimp that I'd done, like you, as our third-yr class project. Except you'll see from the listing that I'd extended skimp a little bit to make it easier to interface to the hardware: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/kernel.skimp6809 (Unfortunately my 6809 skimp source is semi-lost; it's on a BBC Micro 5.25" floppy and I have no convenient way of transferring it from a Beeb to the net at the moment. I have no 5.25" drives for DOS to use under an emulator - very hard to find now. As well as not being sure which of several hundred floppies is the appropriate one!) FYI the skimp grammar is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/skimp/skimp.gram and a scan of the manual here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/skimp_ii/ (I didn't get that until after writing the code above, unfortunately) > Then I changed the code generator to be 8086 instead of the original > SKIMP machine. That required writing a second pass to patch up > the jumps - 8086'ers will know that you only get very short conditional Just out of interest, why 8086? I'm guessing you probably know the instruction set inside out from your DOS emulator, is the main reason? > And it works - at least as far as I have tested it. Excellent! I'm looking forward to seeing it. > I'm looking for help in two areas. First, I need some IMP programs to > try out on it! Point me at your tired and scruffy programs, and I'll turn > them into EXE files. (No records/reals/predicates/maps please). Well, I can sort of wave my hands about in an airy way and point you in general at: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ - everything we have is somewhere under there. Also I had copied a few specific files to other places to use as test cases for compilers, translators and formatters, so have a look in all of these as well: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/imp/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp80/imp/TESTS/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp80/imputils/soap80/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp80/imputils/tests/ in the main body of the archive, look at these for starters: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/APM/I/index.html http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/gpm/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ai2logo/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/hmd/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/compare/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/assorted/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/emas2/compilers/lisp/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/emas2/compilers/prolog/src/ Soap80 above sort of works, as does my own imp80 formatter here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/skimp/imp.e and you may find them useful in syntax checking imp source before feeding it to your own compiler. Much of the source in the archive has idiosyncrasies; either HMD extensions on the APM, or IMP15 historical features, or the very old Pre-robertson ERCC Imp11, or the ICL4/75 EMAS version of Imp before Imp80... I've been converting everything to the common subset of imp80/imp77 whenever possible when I use it for testing. Also after formatting, this syntax colouring utility does make printer listings a little nicer, if you print from a web browser (you don't need a web server, just point your browser at the converted html file) http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/imp2html/ > More importantly, I need someone to tell me how to do records in SKIMP. > It was set as a student exercise for goodness sake - it can't be that hard. > My compiler is close enough in internal structure that if you've got a > working > solution for "standard IMP-written SKIMP" then I can move it over. > Except that I'm stuck with how to do the link between names and tags. > If you know the answer, please contact me off the list! Can't help, didn't do that extension. I did m6809 code generation plus extended grammar (if/while/unless/until in various forms). IAY and JGH are probably the only other people here to have hacked Skimp projects as students. Although IMP15 is *very* close to the same level as Skimp, which brings in Rainer and Hamish as potential help. You mentioned you have an IMP77 front-end. Machine readable or on paper? Any old IMP sources you have of any description, would you mind uploading them to ftp://ftp.gtoal.com/incoming/ please? It would be really nice to have a look at your work in progress on Skimp too... By the way, Peter Stephen's parsers should be familiar to anyone who has worked on Skimp; and consequently you also should not have much trouble understanding Bob Eager's full imp80 written in C. i'm wondering perhaps if having got this far under skimp, it might not be too hard for you to move the code generation part into Bob's parser. (He hasn't done any code generation yet). Also have a look at: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp80/cygwin/ which Peter Stephens has had donated from EPCC in order to generate intel binaries and assembler source. So we have Bob's front end, EPC's back end, and maybe you are the guy to do the bit in the middle and get a start on an all-C version of imp80??? EPC's lput routines can generate pentium code by the way; and bob's parser has machine code support although I'm not well enough familiar with x86 architecture to know which level it is and I've forgotten what he said it was; I have a suspicion it's 286 but I could easily be wrong. Thanks for all the work you've done, I'm really amazed that you went off and did this all so quickly. regards G Fortunately before I mailed the above, I saw this come in: > From: "Andy Davis" > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:07:46 +0100 > Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: IMP compiler, anyone? > > Oops - previous mail got sent before I finished typing it. > > The additional comments I had were: > > The reason I can't just publish the compiler at this stage is that the > IO library is actually just some stubs that call the Microsoft C > stdio library, so unless you've got the same Microsoft C/C++ > development kit as I'm using (Visual C++ v1.52) then you'll > not be able to get anywhere - watch this space for a solution. Please don't let that stop you. And anyway, we need a fuller imp run-time library written in C. It's something I hope to work on myself in approaching weeks. Does your compiler write straight to binary or can it generate assembler source (or an interspersed listing?) > And, in reply to Graham's question, which was... > > >... did you write this some time ago and only recently > > find or remember it... or have you been beavering away getting this > working > > over recent months as a surprise for us?! (It worked; I'm gobsmacked!) > > I started it on 15th September. There's a famous comment about I had a suspicion it was very recent. If you'd started when I saw you in Edinburgh in late August I felt sure you would have said something. I'm impressed. I can turn out parsers fast but I don't think I could write a code generator anywhere near that quickly! > software - "Good, Fast, Cheap - pick any two from three". This > is definitely Fast and Cheap. Fast is good! And no-one is complaining about the price :-) > When you see some of the object > code it plants you'll die laughing. We all write code like that from time to time. In my case probably most of the time, but I don't let that stop me from putting it on my web site ;-) ... so I'm twisting your arm to let us see what you've got, even if we can't run it yet. You never know, there may be stuff we can help with... G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-269-1033961402-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 22:30:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.81]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g973U6S14438 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:30:06 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-269-1033961402-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Oct 2002 03:30:02 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 7 Oct 2002 03:30:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 70794 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2002 03:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Oct 2002 03:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Oct 2002 03:30:01 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g973U4914433 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:30:04 -0500 Message-Id: <200210070330.g973U4914433@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:30:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] IMP15 compiler resurrected Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I'm about to send Graham the necessary files (RUN.C and > PRIM.I15, together with mods I've had to make to the > compiler itself, both the IMP version and his C version) > and will leave him to say when they can be downloaded. Everything can be found here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp15/ look for the versions of the files with "-emul" in the names for the tweaked sources that apply to the emulator. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-270-1034114003-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 17:02:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.87]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g98M2gj14817 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:02:43 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-270-1034114003-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2002 21:53:23 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 8 Oct 2002 21:53:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 41906 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2002 21:53:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Oct 2002 21:53:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Oct 2002 21:53:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2002 21:53:20 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 64.219.146.202 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:53:18 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 I've been experimenting with image formats for the web site to both store and display our scans, and at least as far as display is concerned, I think I've found a hands-down winner. The only catch is that it requires a plug in to be installed in your browser, but I've been wandering around local libraries and internet cafes installing it directly off the net and it seems to be pretty much a one-click reliable installation. The format is AT&T's "Deja Vu" (which I'd looked at some years ago when it was invented, but the plugins back then were terrible); it's now somewhat of an open standard and the compression and viewability are terrific. Can I suggest installing one of the plugins now, and while you're doing that I'll be converting some pages to the format using their free on-line converter (which throws in an attempt at OCR for free and stores the text with the image for search engines to find) The plug-in that I'm using is here: http://www.lizardtech.com/download/?x=2&p=1&o=1&titl=Download%20DjVu% 20Browser%20Plug-in Let me know if installing the plug-in is anything but trivial - you guys are my beta-test of this before I add it to the web site. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-271-1034114495-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 17:12:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.99]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g98MCCj14897 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:12:13 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-271-1034114495-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2002 22:01:36 -0000 X-Sender: blaing@windows.microsoft.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 8 Oct 2002 22:01:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 30484 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2002 22:01:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Oct 2002 22:01:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.microsoft.com) (131.107.3.125) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Oct 2002 22:01:35 -0000 Received: from inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.27]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:01:34 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:01:34 -0700 Received: from red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.102]) by inet-hub-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:01:34 -0700 Received: from WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:01:33 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.52]) by WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3663.0); Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:01:32 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6771.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <4AEE3169443CDD4796CA8A00B02191CD06A26761@win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online thread-index: AcJvFSCK2WyykNobSKC+CxKJykDbTAAARM8w To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2002 22:01:32.0843 (UTC) FILETIME=[434627B0:01C26F16] From: "Bill Laing" X-Yahoo-Profile: blaingfeb MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:01:33 -0700 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 It worked for me and I am using Windows XP with SP1 installed. /Bill -----Original Message----- From: Graham Toal [mailto:gtoal@gtoal.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 2:53 PM To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online I've been experimenting with image formats for the web site to both store and display our scans, and at least as far as display is concerned, I think I've found a hands-down winner. The only catch is that it requires a plug in to be installed in your browser, but I've been wandering around local libraries and internet cafes installing it directly off the net and it seems to be pretty much a one-click reliable installation. The format is AT&T's "Deja Vu" (which I'd looked at some years ago when it was invented, but the plugins back then were terrible); it's now somewhat of an open standard and the compression and viewability are terrific. Can I suggest installing one of the plugins now, and while you're doing that I'll be converting some pages to the format using their free on-line converter (which throws in an attempt at OCR for free and stores the text with the image for search engines to find) The plug-in that I'm using is here: http://www.lizardtech.com/download/?x=2&p=1&o=1&titl=Download%20DjVu% 20Browser%20Plug-in Let me know if installing the plug-in is anything but trivial - you guys are my beta-test of this before I add it to the web site. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-272-1034149742-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 02:49:22 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g997nJj02038 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 02:49:20 -0500 Message-Id: <200210090749.g997nJj02038@gtoal.com> X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-272-1034149742-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2002 07:49:02 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 9 Oct 2002 07:49:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 74974 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2002 07:48:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Oct 2002 07:48:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO clueless.secondary-mx.co.uk) (217.169.20.20) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Oct 2002 07:48:59 -0000 Received: from [217.169.31.211]([217.169.31.211] HELO:rikki.tavi.co.uk) by clueless.secondary-mx.co.uk for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 08:48:58 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3da3df65a; 09 Oct 02 08:48:53 BST To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:48:52 BST Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 ** Reply to note from "Graham Toal" Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:53:18 -0000 > The format is AT&T's "Deja Vu" (which I'd looked at some years > ago when it was invented, but the plugins back then were terrible); > it's now somewhat of an open standard and the compression and > viewability are terrific. I went and had a look but of course they don't have a plugin for my system! Nor do they seem to support BSD, which is the other major system I run. I had a look at their discussion board, and there do seem to be a number of problems that people are having with installation, particularly when they use Mozilla (the installer doesn't get it right). I wonder whether (my own problems aside) this is quite mature enough for use? Also, whether (despite its benefits) it is the right way to go, when anyone wishing to use the archive has to download a plugin first. I know it's always a pain on a new machine when I sudeenly hit a Flash site and have to go and fiddle with plugins! PDF may not be marvellous but it is pretty ubiquitous. Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-273-1034152480-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 03:35:01 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.69]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g998Yvj03694 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 03:34:58 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-273-1034152480-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2002 08:34:40 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 9 Oct 2002 08:34:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 86107 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2002 08:34:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Oct 2002 08:34:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Oct 2002 08:34:39 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.at1.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.202.242]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id JAA23263 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:34:38 +0100 (BST) Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g998YeI09364 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:34:40 +0100 Message-Id: <200210090834.g998YeI09364@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20020424 04/24/2002 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:53:18 -0000." From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 09:34:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 > Can I suggest installing one of the plugins now... Can I suggest that that is not always an option for sites such as ours where a central support team has several hundred machines and several thousand users to look after. If it's not a widely-used standard, isn't required for teaching or research, doesn't (appear to) have a version for our recommended browser (mozilla now) or takes significant effort to install properly then it won't be done. Incidentally, the download site you mention appears to want javascript in order to work. Before suggesting that we should all enable that, you might like to have a look at www.digicrime.com for a few minutes... -- Dr George D M Ross, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@inf.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-274-1034183508-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 12:13:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.85] (may be forged)) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g99HD8j14732 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:13:08 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-274-1034183508-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2002 17:11:48 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 9 Oct 2002 17:11:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 88054 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2002 17:11:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Oct 2002 17:11:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Oct 2002 17:11:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2002 17:11:45 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200210090834.g998YeI09364@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 206.254.144.174 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 17:11:44 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 Thanks George, Bob & Bill for the comments; I've considered them and I have come up with a better plan, though it will take some work on my part: I will store the images on my server in DJVU format, which is about 1/5th the size of the best compression of other formats, but will modify my web server so that it can present the pages in any of the many formats supported by netpbm. So when you access the server, by default it will be gif/jpg/png (to be decided) but by clicking on a drop-down you can switch to any format you prefer. It'll convert on the fly. That should, I hope, be acceptable to everyone. It won't even need java or javascript, it'll just be a plain web server with images generated by /cgi-bin/ Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-275-1034323443-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 03:10:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9B8AEj09054 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 03:10:14 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-275-1034323443-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2002 08:04:03 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 11 Oct 2002 08:04:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 20458 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2002 08:04:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Oct 2002 08:04:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Oct 2002 08:04:02 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9B84Y009007; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 03:04:34 -0500 Message-Id: <200210110804.g9B84Y009007@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 03:04:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 I got the basics of this working yesterday but I waited until today when I finally found the source of djvutopnm (took me some time because they renamed it ddjvu about 20 releases ago!) If you look in this directory: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/tests/ You will find this file: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/tests/djvutest.djvu But if you do not have the djvu plugin, you should still be able to access that same file (not copies) as different image types by any of these URLs: http://www.gtoal.com/cgi-bin/image/athome/edinburgh/scans/tests/djvutest.png http://www.gtoal.com/cgi-bin/image/athome/edinburgh/scans/tests/djvutest.gif http://www.gtoal.com/cgi-bin/image/athome/edinburgh/scans/tests/djvutest.jpg It converts the file on the fly, and acceptably quickly (ie the conversion time is less than the comms time except perhaps here on my own local network). This isn't a released product yet, I'm not looking for you to try it out on different files and tell me it doesn't always work - I know that and I know why; I just wanted you to try it out on that demo page and tell me if it is an acceptable way to store/view images. I hope this satisfies GDMR's objections about not installing plugins. Look on it as a transparent server-side plug-in :-) Graham PS If you're the sort of person who has to know how everything works, here's a snapshot of the source: http://www.gtoal.com/devel/graphics/image.c.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-276-1034324993-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 03:30:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.78]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9B8URj09229 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 03:30:27 -0500 Message-Id: <200210110830.g9B8URj09229@gtoal.com> X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-276-1034324993-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2002 08:29:53 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 11 Oct 2002 08:29:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 90227 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2002 08:29:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Oct 2002 08:29:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO clueless.secondary-mx.co.uk) (217.169.20.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Oct 2002 08:29:52 -0000 Received: from [217.169.31.211]([217.169.31.211] HELO:rikki.tavi.co.uk) by clueless.secondary-mx.co.uk for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:29:51 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3da68bf7a; 11 Oct 02 09:29:44 BST To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:29:43 BST Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Fri, 11 Oct 2002 03:04:34 -0500 > I got the basics of this working yesterday but I waited until today when How will this work when mirroring? Presumably we'll get all the copies....! Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-277-1034353641-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 11:28:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9BGS9j12949 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:28:09 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-277-1034353641-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2002 16:27:23 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 11 Oct 2002 16:27:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 7843 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2002 16:23:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Oct 2002 16:23:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Oct 2002 16:24:00 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9BGOa212919 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:24:36 -0500 Message-Id: <200210111624.g9BGOa212919@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:24:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 BOB> How will this work when mirroring? Presumably we'll get all the copies....! because the links to the processed versions will be via /cgi-bin, mirroring should automaticallty skip them and it will only see the raw files which will be visible in a directory elsewhere in the hierarchy. Andy Davis has been urging me to use PDF files for portability. It took a little longer but I finally found a package that converts between the portable pnm intermediate representation, and pdf. (ImageMagick) I've created a test file ( http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/tests/pdftest.pdf ) and will be adding filter support later. Unfortunately I received an email this morning with an urgent consulting job to be done by Monday so I'll be unlikely to integrate this filter with the rest over the weekend as I had hoped. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-278-1034453860-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 17:48:01 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.102]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9CMm1r11467 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:48:01 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-278-1034453860-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2002 20:17:40 -0000 X-Sender: roderick.mcleod@orkney.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 12 Oct 2002 20:17:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 79747 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2002 20:17:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Oct 2002 20:17:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Oct 2002 20:17:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2002 20:17:37 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Roderick McLeod" X-Originating-IP: 213.122.106.155 X-Yahoo-Profile: roderickrmcleod MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:17:37 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Another old hand joins up Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 277 Hello all I am a former employee of ERCC - left in 1982 to move to Orkney (Island group off North of Scottish mainland). I now am part of a locally based IT Company. I visited Peter Stephens this week and he told me about your great project! I worked from 1967-1969 for English Electric Leo-Marconi (later English Electric Computers, later ICL) as a maintenance engineer for the ERCC KDF9 Computer. During my time as a maintenance engineer I developed a new version of the Edinburgh KDF9 Director - incorporating the standard graphics software developed by Malcolm Brown. This meant that we could run students graph jobs - typically a dozen punched cards - without having to first compile 300 punched cards containing the graphics software each time! In 1969 I joined the staff of ERCC and worked there until December 1982. I was one of the team which re-implemented EMAS on the ICL 2900 series and worked closely with Peter, Keith Yarwood (who died - I think about a year ago) Andrew McKendrick, John Wexler, Sandy Shaw, and many others. My main area was the User Subsystem - including inventing and implementing partitioned files, dynamic loading, standardising user commands, and writing the EMAS 2900 User Guide. I am in contact with a few of the people on your list and I'll endeavour to contact them. Keep up the good work Roderick McLeod ps - my store box contains: Scribe User Manual An Introduction to VAX/VMS - Natalie Royal 100 or so Suggestions from Users requesting improvements to EMAS IMP reference Manual - March 1968 EMAS Report 6 "The Replacement of the System 4-75 EMAS Computing Facility" - Sept 1979 - GE Thomas, JG Burns, A McKendrick ECCE - L D Smith Edinburgh IMP Language Manual - June 1974 ERCC First Annual Report - 1967 EMAP System 4-75 Primary Subsystem Reference Manual The Evolution of the Operating System EMAS 2900 - Stephens & Yarwood Edinburgh Compiler for Atlas Autocode - March 1968 DEIMOS User Manual - 3rd Edition Jan 1980 KDF9 Algol Programming Systems for the 2980 (VME/B and EMAS) Wexler March 1978 the EMAS Archiving Program - June 1974 EMAS Report 4 - Scheduling ERCC Newsletters 1974/78 "An Experiment in doing it again, but very well this time" EMAS Report 2 - The Director Programming in Atlas Autocode - Oct 1968 SCREED - a Screen Editor Elecronic Mail on EMAS - July 1982 The Structure of the EMAS 2900 Kernel EMAS 2900 Information Card - May 1980 EMAS-3 User's Guide - Sept 1986 An Incomplete set of EMAS 2900 Subsytem Notes A small 6250 BPI Tape labelled MAC001 - TIPL + CHOPSUPE 11/3/80 If any of these are needed then I would be happy to send them on. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-280-1034465766-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 18:36:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.99]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9CNaFr11924 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:36:15 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-280-1034465766-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2002 23:36:06 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 12 Oct 2002 23:36:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 81490 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2002 23:36:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Oct 2002 23:36:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Oct 2002 23:36:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2002 23:36:05 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:36:04 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Another old hand joins up Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 278 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., "Roderick McLeod" wrote: Great to hear from you! Welcome to the project. > ps - my store box contains: > EMAP System 4-75 Primary Subsystem Reference Manual > Edinburgh Compiler for Atlas Autocode - March 1968 > DEIMOS User Manual - 3rd Edition Jan 1980 > KDF9 Algol Programming > Programming in Atlas Autocode - Oct 1968 Should anyone be so inclined, I'ld probably prioritise the items above for scanning before the others; but... this may be the big win!: > A small 6250 BPI Tape labelled MAC001 - TIPL + CHOPSUPE 11/3/80 This may be the boot tape that Bob Eager needs to start an emulation project! Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-279-1034454452-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 18:37:26 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.70]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9CNbPr11939 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:37:26 -0500 Message-Id: <200210122337.g9CNbPr11939@gtoal.com> X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-279-1034454452-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2002 20:27:32 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 12 Oct 2002 20:27:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 32934 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2002 20:27:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Oct 2002 20:27:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO clueless.secondary-mx.co.uk) (217.169.20.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Oct 2002 20:27:31 -0000 Received: from [217.169.31.211]([217.169.31.211] HELO:rikki.tavi.co.uk) by clueless.secondary-mx.co.uk for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:27:29 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3da884dda; 12 Oct 02 21:23:57 BST To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:23:56 BST Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Another old hand joins up Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 ** Reply to note from "Roderick McLeod" Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:17:37 -0000 > I am a former employee of ERCC - left in 1982 to move to Orkney > (Island group off North of Scottish mainland). I now am part of a > locally based IT Company. Hi, Mac! Good to see you here! Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-281-1034541225-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 15:34:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9DKY4r31183 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:34:04 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-281-1034541225-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Oct 2002 20:33:45 -0000 X-Sender: roderick.mcleod@orkney.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 13 Oct 2002 20:33:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 53404 invoked from network); 13 Oct 2002 20:33:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Oct 2002 20:33:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Oct 2002 20:33:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.172] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Oct 2002 20:33:44 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Roderick McLeod" X-Originating-IP: 213.122.14.121 X-Yahoo-Profile: roderickrmcleod MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:33:43 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] KDF9 Update Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 309 Ref the brief note about the KDF9 - a dull name for a computer. Apparently the engineers wanted to use the mnemonic of "Finest Universal Computer Known Except Deuce" - but the marketing department stamped on that. The memory (core store) size was measured in Words - not Bytes. In fact Bytes are not mentioned in the documentation at all. The KDF9 could have up to 32K Words - the ERCC one had 16K Words, though an upgrade was considered. The Q stores were, I think, also used for setting parameters for I/O transactions. I think the hardware design was quite advanced in having a fair degree of device independence. There were about 25 KDF9s built. The ERCC one was destined for Peking University, but apparently a US embargo on any hi-tech equipment incorporating American components, being exported to China, stopped the sale. Meanwhile the 4/75 was running badly behind schedule so Edinburgh was offered the KDF9 on lease. The logic diagrams for the ERCC machine were all labelled "Peking University". The configuration of the ERCC KDF9 was: 16 K Words of Core Store Paper Tape Reader and Punch Card Reader Line Printer 4 Magnetic Tape Decks Flexowriter (Operator Console) Later a Graph Plotter was added The KDF9 at NPL had a large fixed disc - which is now on display at the Science Museum at South Kensington, London. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-282-1034613422-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 11:37:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9EGbYr09155 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:37:35 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-282-1034613422-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Oct 2002 16:37:04 -0000 X-Sender: andy@nb-info.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 14 Oct 2002 16:37:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 51355 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2002 16:37:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Oct 2002 16:37:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO widow.nb-info.co.uk) (193.132.202.33) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Oct 2002 16:37:00 -0000 Received: from vaioandy (NBLan-36 [193.132.202.36]) by widow.nb-info.co.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/) with SMTP id RAA09014 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:36:57 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <019a01c2739f$dc298ca0$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> To: Organization: NB Information Limited X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Andy Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: eucshistory MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:36:34 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Imp Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 394 Further to my note last week about my Imp compiler project, I've put up a project web site so that people who want to play with it can download the current "skimpy" compiler. See http://imp.nb-info.co.uk/ Andy Davis ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-283-1034675641-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 04:54:35 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n40.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n40.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.108]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9F9sZr24204 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 04:54:35 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-283-1034675641-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 09:54:01 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 09:54:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 12809 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 09:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 09:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 09:53:59 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9F9sVi24199; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 04:54:31 -0500 Message-Id: <200210150954.g9F9sVi24199@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 04:54:31 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Andy: imp77 sources Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 456 Andy, I've just this minute read on your web page that you're looking for the Imp77 com[piler source. We don't have many of these and I'm afraid we don't have the best or most modern of Peter's compilers, BUT we do have one: for the interdata... http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/mouses/source/imp/ Also, there's one Imp77 still in commercial existence, which is the one for Vax/VMS. I've never asked PSR for a copy of this because it is still in use (JGH's employer uses it) but I have a strong suspicion that no-one is actually still paying for continued use or that they ever expect to sell any more, so I'm betting if you ask PSR he'd be willing to let you have the sources for the Vax version to work from. Try psr (at) blueyonder.co.uk (I am assuming that the source still exists but by past experience this is by no means certain. The compiler may have gone stiff.) Good work on the web site, thanks! regards Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-284-1034676481-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 05:08:37 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.67]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FA8Zr24328 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 05:08:35 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-284-1034676481-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 10:08:02 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 10:08:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 93433 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 10:08:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 10:08:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 10:08:00 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9FA8XF24322; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 05:08:33 -0500 Message-Id: <200210151008.g9FA8XF24322@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 05:08:33 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] manuals Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 458 Andy, you have links to the skimp and imp77 manuals on your download page, which are missing the files. I don't know if you have already rescanned these or were planning to scan them, but we have copies of both on our web site already; if you haven't already scanned them you might pick them up from here in order to convert to PDF: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/imp77_manual/ http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/skimp_ii/split/ Remember you can convert the format on the fly, eg http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/imp77_manual/contents.tif is viewable as: http://www.gtoal.com/cgi-bin/image/athome/edinburgh/scans/imp77_manual/contents.png if that is easier for you to work with. Both were scanned at A5 size so if you've gone and scanned them again, especially from an A4 master, that's not a problem; a better quality scan would be worth adding to the archive. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-285-1034677310-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 05:22:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FAMOr24486 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 05:22:24 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-285-1034677310-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 10:21:50 -0000 X-Sender: andy@nb-info.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 10:21:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 62835 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 10:21:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 10:21:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO widow.nb-info.co.uk) (193.132.202.33) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 10:21:48 -0000 Received: from vaioandy (NBLan-36 [193.132.202.36]) by widow.nb-info.co.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/) with SMTP id LAA24476 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:21:45 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <01f901c27434$a4f77f40$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> To: Organization: NB Information Limited X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Andy Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: eucshistory MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:21:36 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] I'm sorry, I'll say that again Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 461 Many thanks to Graham for pointing out the rather simple error I made in adding my IMP site to my DNS server (which also meant my firewall didn't see the new site either). Subject to the time it takes the DNS to propagate, the site should now be visible (generally a small number of hours). If you can't wait that long, you could always try http://193.132.202.52 Please let me know if it still isn't working! Sorry about that... Andy Davis ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-286-1034681217-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 06:27:31 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FBRVr25130 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 06:27:31 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-286-1034681217-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 11:26:57 -0000 X-Sender: roderick.mcleod@orkney.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 11:26:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 83498 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 11:26:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 11:26:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 11:26:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 11:26:56 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01f901c27434$a4f77f40$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Roderick McLeod" X-Originating-IP: 213.1.183.99 X-Yahoo-Profile: roderickrmcleod MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:26:55 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: I'm sorry, I'll say that again Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 471 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., "Andy Davis" > >wrote: > > > you could always try http://193.132.202.52 > I did try it. Downloaded it and had my first IMP program written for 18 years debugged and running within ten minutes! Heh it's great to be back with a proper programming language. Keep up the good work. Roderick ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-288-1034697305-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 11:00:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.105]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FG0or27466 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:00:50 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-288-1034697305-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 15:55:06 -0000 X-Sender: c.whitfield@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 15:55:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 70044 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 15:55:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 15:55:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 15:55:02 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:55:02 +0100 Received: from OCTAVIA.blueyonder.co.uk (unverified [80.195.45.90]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:55:02 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021015164502.0307d9e8@pop3.attglobal.net> X-Sender: cw011a5500@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-From: Chris Whitfield From: Chris Whitfield X-Yahoo-Profile: kit_whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:55:22 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 494 Graham, I'm afraid I can only agree with Bob. If any kind of long-term stabililty is required then surely a widely distributed format with a track record of stability must be the choice. Even if Adobe canned .pdf tomorrow there are so many third party compatibles that you'd hardly notice. If this stuff is to be put out on a CD, what would be the preferred format for posterity? Cheers Chris At 08:48 09/10/2002 +0100, you wrote: >** Reply to note from "Graham Toal" Tue, 08 Oct 2002 >21:53:18 -0000 > > > The format is AT&T's "Deja Vu" (which I'd looked at some years > > ago when it was invented, but the plugins back then were terrible); > > it's now somewhat of an open standard and the compression and > > viewability are terrific. > >I went and had a look but of course they don't have a plugin for my system! >Nor do they seem to support BSD, which is the other major system I run. > >I had a look at their discussion board, and there do seem to be a number of >problems that people are having with installation, particularly when they use >Mozilla (the installer doesn't get it right). > >I wonder whether (my own problems aside) this is quite mature enough for use? >Also, whether (despite its benefits) it is the right way to go, when anyone >wishing to use the archive has to download a plugin first. I know it's always >a pain on a new machine when I sudeenly hit a Flash site and have to go and >fiddle with plugins! > >PDF may not be marvellous but it is pretty ubiquitous. > > >Bob > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-287-1034696465-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 11:16:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FGGAr27578 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:16:10 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-287-1034696465-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 15:41:05 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 15:41:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 36600 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 15:41:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 15:41:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.30.72.185) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 15:41:04 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4FMFS5FZ>; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:42:13 +0100 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A3F4@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:42:05 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Andy: imp77 sources Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 496 > Also, there's one Imp77 still in commercial existence, which is the > one for Vax/VMS. I've never asked PSR for a copy of this because it > is still in use (JGH's employer uses it) All, astonishingly, true, although I think both the compiler and the applications are VESTed (binary translated) from VAX to Alpha now... perhaps JGH can confirm. > but I have a strong suspicion > that no-one is actually still paying for continued use or that they > ever expect to sell any more I also "suspect" that is true. > so I'm betting if you ask PSR he'd be > willing to let you have the sources for the Vax version to work from. > Try psr (at) blueyonder.co.uk (I am assuming that the source still > exists but by past experience this is by no means certain. > The compiler may have gone stiff.) I am pretty sure that sources for Imp-77 still exist for (at least) VAX/VMS, Sun-3, Sun Sparc and transputer. It would take a little work to dig the right stuff out from the other junk (commercially sensitive or personal) living on the same archive disks, but if Peter is amenable to the idea I might be able to take a look at this when I get back from vacation (early November). -- Ian P.S. I believe Peter is out of town at present, back later in the week. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-289-1034698866-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 11:33:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.76]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FGX3r27674 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:33:03 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-289-1034698866-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 16:21:06 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 16:21:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 33076 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 16:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 16:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.30.72.185) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 16:21:05 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4FMFS5GA>; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:22:17 +0100 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A3F5@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:22:08 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 498 > From: Chris Whitfield [mailto:cw12345@attglobal.net] [...] > If this stuff is to be put out on a CD, what would be the > preferred format for posterity? People in the archival game all seem to suggest that TIFF is still the right answer, and fairly boring TIFF variants at that. The downside is that such files are huge, and pretty much no use for web site presentation or even for a "collector's CD". For example, the basic scans of the PDP-15 compiler and its TAKEON variants came to 614MB in archival formats (about 10MB per page). Given this, you pretty much have to make the distinction between the archival format and the presentation format. This means that it is much less of a concern to use some new-fangled lossy format like Deja Vu (or even PDF, PNG, JPG, GIF, whatever) as a presentation format. -- Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-290-1034707522-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 13:46:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.79]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FIkHr28816 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:46:17 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-290-1034707522-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 18:45:22 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 18:45:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 27092 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 18:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 18:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 18:45:21 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9FIjuS28808 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:45:56 -0500 Message-Id: <200210151845.g9FIjuS28808@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:45:56 -0500 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 503 > People in the archival game all seem to suggest that TIFF is still the right > answer, and fairly boring TIFF variants at that. > > The downside is that such files are huge, and pretty much no use for web > site presentation or even for a "collector's CD". For example, the basic > scans of the PDP-15 compiler and its TAKEON variants came to 614MB in > archival formats (about 10MB per page). > > Given this, you pretty much have to make the distinction between the > archival format and the presentation format. This means that it is much > less of a concern to use some new-fangled lossy format like Deja Vu (or even > PDF, PNG, JPG, GIF, whatever) as a presentation format. Surely there can be no objection to a lossless format for storage; since these archival quality scans are high-res mono, what about JBIG (lossless bi-level jpg): http://www.jpeg.org/jbighomepage.html Also, long term archival storage for scans may not be an issue; I have found several organisations who are offering it for free with the intention of it being long-term. See: The Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/about/about.php#storage (I have an account here and I believe I can upload documents but have not done so yet as ours are still somewhat 'raw') The Million Book project http://www.archive.org/texts/millionbooks.php Open Source Books: http://www.archive.org/texts/opensource.php OCLC Digital Archive: http://www.oclc.org/digitalpreservation/about/archive/ (not free to us but a library can access it) G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-291-1034708605-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 14:05:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.71]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FJ5Kr28969 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:05:21 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-291-1034708605-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 19:03:25 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 19:03:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 40386 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 19:03:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 19:03:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 19:03:24 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9FJ40Z28958; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:04:00 -0500 Message-Id: <200210151904.g9FJ40Z28958@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:04:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 505 > I'm afraid I can only agree with Bob. If any kind of long-term stabililty > is required then > surely a widely distributed format with a track record of stability must be > the choice. > Even if Adobe canned .pdf tomorrow there are so many third party > compatibles that > you'd hardly notice. > If this stuff is to be put out on a CD, what would be the preferred format > for posterity? As Ian pointed out, these are pretty big in tiff format. That may not be an issue but we may have to look at DVDs for the scans (and a single CD for all the source we're ever likely to find!). I have no objection to making distribution media using different formats from the web site. Also I think we probably should have smaller online browsable ones on the web site and maybe even keep the huge archival scans offline unless we end up with enough spare disk space. (This is not the case at the moment but may change as my employment status changes! - I'm waiting for my first cheque to arrive from recent consultancy work at which point I'll be buying a 180Gb drive from the local supermarket at $370 - that's about $2 per gigabyte, or 5Mb for 1 cent!) But for now it is not a worry as we have what few scans I've made still in the format generated by the scanner at the time and they're not going anywhere; in fact Bob & Ian already have offsite backups so those files are secured. If more people contribute a lot more scans, then worrying about the disk space may become an issue, but that's up to everyone here to get some scanning done. I've scanned everything I have access to; I've run out of documents. At the moment I'm more interested in taking what scans we have and making them readable to the average web user without any major hassles, i.e. so that they can come to our web site and start browsing (or printing) right away with whatever software they have installed already or can easily install. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-292-1034709162-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 14:15:55 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FJFrr29156 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:15:54 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-292-1034709162-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 19:12:42 -0000 X-Sender: roderick.mcleod@orkney.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 19:12:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 96961 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 19:12:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 19:12:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 19:12:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 19:12:42 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200210151904.g9FJ40Z28958@gtoal.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Roderick McLeod" X-Originating-IP: 213.122.23.1 X-Yahoo-Profile: roderickrmcleod MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:12:39 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 508 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Graham Toal wrote: > At the moment I'm more interested in taking what scans we have and > making them readable to the average web user without any major hassles, > i.e. so that they can come to our web site and start browsing (or printing) > right away with whatever software they have installed already or can easily > install. > > G I have some experience of scanning and using OCR and even with pretty old typed documents have had reasonable results. Many of the documents have pretty simple formats - because they were produced using pretty simple equipment. I suggest we should, where possible generate .txt file versions of documents. I'll have a try with some of mine when I can get my scanner working again. An HP LaserJet 1100A (printer/scanner) worked fine with Windows ME - but no scanner driver available for XP. Mind you it is three years old! R ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-293-1034711006-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 14:44:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9FJi3r30210 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:44:03 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-293-1034711006-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2002 19:43:26 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 19:43:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 93882 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 19:43:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 19:43:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 19:43:24 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9FJi1h30204; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:44:01 -0500 Message-Id: <200210151944.g9FJi1h30204@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:44:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 513 > I have some experience of scanning and using OCR and even with pretty > old typed documents have had reasonable results. Many of the > documents have pretty simple formats - because they were produced > using pretty simple equipment. I suggest we should, where possible > generate .txt file versions of documents. I'll have a try with some > of mine when I can get my scanner working again. An HP LaserJet 1100A > (printer/scanner) worked fine with Windows ME - but no scanner driver > available for XP. Mind you it is three years old! that is our ultimate goal, but our experience so far has not been as good as yours; the only text documents we're restored of any quality have been ones we've typed in ourselves. The OCR packages we've tried perform very poorly on old listings. So much so that I've started a background project myself to write some new OCR software customised to fixed-pitch printer listings. Hence why we want to keep archival-quality scans - so that if in the future better OCR software becomes available, we won't need to rescan any documents in order to use it. If you have any free time on your hands and want to try OCRing some of our existing scans until you get your own scanner working, poke around in http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/ and pick something you find interesting. (I'd like to see the Atlas Autocode manual, but it has some interesting overstrikes that will cause representation problems never mind scanning problems) if those .png files are incompatible with your OCR software, you can convert the format on the fly as follows: Original URL: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/scans/atlas_autocode_manual/aa002.png Converted URL: Tiff: http://www.gtoal.com/cgi-bin/image/athome/edinburgh/scans/atlas_autocode_manual/aa002.tiff Jpeg: http://www.gtoal.com/cgi-bin/image/athome/edinburgh/scans/atlas_autocode_manual/aa002.jpg GIF: http://www.gtoal.com/cgi-bin/image/athome/edinburgh/scans/atlas_autocode_manual/aa002.gif Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-294-1034733349-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 20:56:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.67]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9G1uUr01232 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:56:30 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-294-1034733349-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 01:55:49 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 01:55:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 39930 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 01:55:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 01:55:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 01:55:46 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9G1uPa01227; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:56:25 -0500 Message-Id: <200210160156.g9G1uPa01227@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:56:25 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] To whom it may concern :-) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 550 Well, I had thought that with the folding of my last employer's business would come some free time to rest and enjoy a little programming time, but things seemed to have conspired to keep me busy. However I'm pleased to say that finally my external commitments are complete for a few more weeks, and I'll be working full time on this project until some other distraction (such as more consultancy work, or a job interview) turns up. Peter Stephens in particular is long overdue on some work I promised to do for him, so I've started on that already. (I'll be in touch with you by mail when I've got a Linux system configured for you; then we can resume work on the unix version of imp80; I'm quite keen to take on the task of extending the Imp run time library, if I may; maybe even doing a sort of 'cygwin' think for EMAS...) Talking of which, can any linux users here answer a quick question: I have one linux system which I've been actively using for some months and now have most of the packages I use installed via the rpm mechanism. I have another system set up from the same CDs but which I haven't yet installed the application rpm's. Is there an easy way to get a list of installed RPMs off one system so I can install the same ones on the other system in the same order? (I don't want to say just copy /usr/local/bin etc because I'll miss a lot of the config changes that way; also it makes uninstalling harder). I also hope to work on the scans, splitting 2-up pages, straightening squint pages, trimming borders to white etc, so that they can be made readable on the web site (and easily processed into pdf format etc) (If I'm very industrious I'll even get some of the threatened OCR research done...) I'm open to suggestions from the peanut gallery as to other projects to advance the group goals. (Except web site design which I'm not ready for yet). FYI Chris Whitfield is advancing the tape recovery exercise; and Andrew McKendrick has one of his staff working on some technical issues related to our getting access to the EMAS archives. we do have an archive account but we can't see anything because the way it's set up they've never had to permit individual files to specific users before (The EMAS permissions model doesn't really map well to Unix.) Bob Eager had once mentioned the possibility of emulating EMAS under the Hercules emulator, and I checked with the Hercules group about Amdahl compatibility - it looks like there should not be too much of a problem there, when we get round to that. Especially if we now have an Amdahl boot tape from Roderick McLeod (or is it a 297X tape???) Otherwise I don't think there's much else to report that wasn't already mentioned here. (PDP15, AI2LOGO, etc) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-295-1034754090-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 04:21:16 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.78]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9G9LGG04119 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:21:16 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-295-1034754090-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 07:41:30 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 07:41:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 85596 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 07:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 07:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.30.72.185) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 07:41:29 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4FMFS5HA>; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:42:46 +0100 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A3F7@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" Cc: "'gtoal@gtoal.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:42:43 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] To whom it may concern :-) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 565 > From: Graham Toal [mailto:gtoal@gtoal.com] > Is there an easy way to get a list of installed > RPMs off one system so I can install the same ones > on the other system in the same order? "rpm -qa" will give you the list (expect >800 lines), but it won't give you an installation ordering. "rpm -i" will whine if you get the ordering wrong, though. -- Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-300-1034759125-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 04:21:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.78]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9G9LGG04122 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:21:16 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-300-1034759125-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 09:05:26 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 09:05:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 10076 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 09:05:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 09:05:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.30.72.185) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 09:05:24 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4FMFS5HL>; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:06:44 +0100 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A3FA@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:06:41 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Andy: imp77 sources Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 566 > From: Peter S Robertson [mailto:psr@blueyonder.co.uk] > Sent: 16 October 2002 09:15 > To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Andy: imp77 sources > > > > Try psr (at) blueyonder.co.uk (I am assuming that the > > > source still > > > exists but by past experience this is by no means certain. > > > The compiler may have gone stiff.) > > I don't think I have sources, but everyone is welcome to use any > that can be found. Sounds like "carte blanche" to me :-) Andy, your web site says you are just looking for PASS2 sources for any old architecture. Should I just E-mail you the first one that comes to hand? -- Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-299-1034758525-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 04:22:53 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.79]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9G9MrG04157 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:22:53 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-299-1034758525-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 08:55:25 -0000 X-Sender: roderick.mcleod@orkney.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 08:55:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 46469 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 08:55:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 08:55:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 08:55:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 08:55:24 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200210160156.g9G1uPa01227@gtoal.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Roderick McLeod" X-Originating-IP: 62.6.68.166 X-Yahoo-Profile: roderickrmcleod MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:55:24 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: To whom it may concern :-) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 567 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Graham Toal wrote: > an Amdahl boot tape from Roderick McLeod (or is it a 297X tape???) > > Graham Sorry Graham it's a 2900 tape. Roderick ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-298-1034757894-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 04:27:33 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.64]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9G9RXG04250 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:27:33 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-298-1034757894-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 08:44:55 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 08:44:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 4537 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 08:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 08:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.30.72.185) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 08:44:53 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4FMFS5HH>; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:46:11 +0100 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A3F8@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" Cc: "'gtoal@gtoal.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:46:06 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Image formats online Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 569 > > Given this, you pretty much have to make the distinction > > between the archival format and the presentation format. > > This means that it is much less of a concern to use some > > new-fangled lossy format like Deja Vu (or even > > PDF, PNG, JPG, GIF, whatever) as a presentation format. > > Surely there can be no objection to a lossless format for > storage; Of course there are plenty of possible reasons (other than lossy/non-lossy) to object to particular formats for archival purposes. The most obvious is that a format isn't universally readable, and might turn out never to be well supported. > since these archival quality scans are high-res mono, what about > JBIG (lossless bi-level jpg): http://www.jpeg.org/jbighomepage.html My experience with things other than "RGB photos" as .JPG files has been pretty depressing. You might try cooking up a CMYK .JPG sometime and see what fun you can have feeding it into various client programs. What people actually use for bi-level images with "fax like" compression is usually TIFF. It may not be quite as small as today's hot new algorithm, but it is nearly universally readable (although some other TIFF variants aren't, of course). The other wrinkle here is that some of the scans we've been doing are not bi-level ones, specifically because they didn't scan well that way. Old grubby faded listings need to be scanned as 8-bit grey, for example so that you can potentially go back and enhance different parts of the page in different ways in order to get all the information out. > Also, long term archival storage for scans may not be an issue; I have > found several organisations who are offering it for free with the > intention of it being long-term. See: > > The Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/about/about.php#storage > (I have an account here and I believe I can upload documents but have > not done so yet as ours are still somewhat 'raw') Good for them. I'd expect we'd still want to keep a couple of copies of even the bulkiest stuff ourselves, just to protect against (a) San Francisco falling into the sea (OK, I'm sure they've sorted that one) and (b) their business model not panning out... Does anyone know if they are related to the big clock people (also housed in the Presidio, as I recall) ? I notice Danny Hillis' name in a couple of places on the site. -- Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-297-1034757235-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 04:39:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9G9d9G04437 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:39:09 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-297-1034757235-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 08:33:56 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 08:33:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 67063 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 08:33:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 08:33:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 08:33:54 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.4]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id JAA23936; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:33:50 +0100 (BST) Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9G8Xtw07878; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:33:56 +0100 Message-Id: <200210160833.g9G8Xtw07878@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20020424 04/24/2002 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: "'gtoal@gtoal.com'" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:42:43 BST." <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A3F7@puck.iay.org.uk> From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:33:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] %MOUSES-I-HI_THERE Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 574 > "rpm -qa" will give you the list (expect >800 lines), but it won't give you > an installation ordering. "rpm -i" will whine if you get the ordering > wrong, though. We're getting seriously off topic (at least until another ten years or so have passed), but it might be worth your while looking at some of our current machine configuration tools, as there are things in there which can simplify your RPM maintenance. www.lcfg.org is the place to start. Trying to get back on topic, I had a quick look through the stuff I have on the EMAS archive, but there's not as much there as I had hoped. I think there are, however, some chunks of Mouses, as used on the 3220, which might be of use (no compilers, though, as far as I can see). There's also the attached, which ADC might remember... I don't see anything from ECSVAX, unfortunately. I had hoped that cubewar might have been there, but it seems not. ---------- %EXTERNALROUTINESPEC DDELAY(%INTEGER secs) %EXTERNALROUTINESPEC PROMPT(%STRING(15) s) %EXTERNALROUTINESPEC NOTIFY(%STRING(255) who what) %EXTERNALROUTINE HAUNT(%STRING(255) dummy) %INTEGERFN REM(%INTEGER NUM,DEN) %RESULT=NUM-NUM//DEN*NUM %END %CONST %INTEGER max victims = 10 %CONST %INTEGER max messages = 303 %CONST %INTEGER minutes = 1 %STRING(15) %ARRAY victim(1:max victims) %INTEGER proc no, num victims, this victim, times, delay, max times %INTEGER selected %OWNSTRING(31) blurb %STRING(15) proc name delay = 2 max times = 60 // delay * minutes ;! One minutes worth... %CONST %STRING(22) %ARRAY message(0:max messages) = %C "We hates Pascal!!!" (8), "Weeble", "SYN SYN SYN NAK", "SYN SYN SYN ACK", "SYN SYN SYN WABT", "(CADDDDDADADADADR X)", "*device timeout", "%CLI-W-INSFPRM", "MAKE 'FRED :JIM", "Hack an Ent today", "**HOST DOWN", "PASCAL: No Thanks", "Supermac is Back.", "Vangelis isn't Dutch", "DTE -> DCE SARM F (B)", "3-space indentation??", "CHR(7) - rings a bell?", "Gimme back my 10p!!", "A Masochist on a diet?", "Turn the tape over..", "Have an index card.", "Device type:", "Its frothy man.", "Quine-McWHO????", "Try chasing the dream.", "Tangram Time!", "Hi there Stan", "Sod ML (attrib [MID])", "HALT INST EXECUTED", "ISYS80 V3.17", "WSLXVANMAT for pres.", "R0 = 00000804", "Symbolic stack dump:", "@173000G", "This must be Thursday?", "What a party...", "Confirmed.", "Right? ... Check!", "$ SET NOCONTROL_Y", "Noohoosferra Burzi??", "Welcome to VAX/VMS v^O", "Mostly Harmless...", "VAX user service resu", "prepare to die", "Ecce Ecce F'tang", "page owner violation", "We wants a shrubbery", "European or African??", "Can I have a synopsys?", "Kohilla Kohilla Splugh", "Conversing...", "%PAS-F-CASSELBOU", "Baroque is Beautiful", "WSLXVANMAT", "**END**", "Heeee-Haw.", "Kirk to Enterprise...", "Zot!", "You must be joking", "[] : *a list", "false : bool", "47 : num", "- : elephant", "[-;-] : butterfly list", "You need more monkeys.", "Have a gorilla..", "Have a chocolate frog.", "->@putslice(1:0,fred)", "POSITIVE shields!!!", "WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT??", "what what What WHAT??", "addr(253)", "* Form |", "SWITCH,SWITCH,SWITCH", "TICK,TICK,TICK,TICK", "string(addr(p_p1))=""""", "Failure: m0", "Mind if I smoke?", "External missing", "Int:.", "BDBDBD Hi there, Buck.", "0000 *a*", "0 files", "Hi there, Steve.", "Cif:", "Weebles wobble.", "Stopped.", "You Have Mail.", "Play it again, Sam.", "Play it again, Sid.", "You have been Warned.", ">%c", ">(l0(f1/!/l40\f/!/)0)0", "Apologies accepted.", "Push the button, Max.", "Try Oiling it.", "Caimbridge, caimbridge", "Dont Panic. Dont Panic", "Coffee time...", "Time to feed the alien", "Complexity = O(nlog(n)", "Disk reversal error.", "PDS is on the bridge", "PSR has been and gone", "We'd better call Stan.", "Sid is innocent!", "Oh no, not again.", "Beep-beep.", "Page Page Page", "Swap Swap Swap", "Oh, Good grief", "Get the Purple One", "Put it in the curry", "Rooner Spools OK", "Slide rules OK", "Dyslexia rules KO", "Queen rules UK", "Apathy might rule OK", "Cannot open input.", "%SYSTEM-F-ABORT,abort", "NO.", "Phasers locked on.", "Shields are now dead.", "*indentation |", "No more room in cube", "Filename:", "Invalid Password.", "SET [ DEAD ]", "SET [ **EOT** ]", "My brain hurts", "*T .BG;CA", "Reel..Zot..Clamp", "Trund!!", "Beware of the Trund", "Illegal opcode", "Dont even Bother", "WET PAINT", "** CONSOLE FAILURE", "** OUTPUT LOST", "Are you sure ?", "Delete?", "** Too many externals", "Host:v", "Number 149", "Rivet. Rivet.", "Try typing ", "Type Q to quit", "SYN SYN SYN RABBIT", "%diagnose 2<<14+255", "//EXEC FORT", "Beam me up, Scotty!!", "Glad to be of service.", "Tap out the code....", "Wretched, isn't it?", "MCR>PIP *.*;*/DE", "X.IMP deleted", "...a collum matrix...", "PHUT-THINK-CLICK", "%endofprogramme", "1 statements compiled", "Coojagoa Burzi??", "I/O Silver.", "OKOKOKKO @", ".LT1 *A*", "Hello lift", ".KJOB", "your days are numbered", "** CRASH IMMINENT", "Wargle Wargle", "57 varieties", "_OPA0: ""Backup", "Regardez, gentlemen..", "What, pray tell??", "So what, Mark?", "Fiddle-de-dee", "42", "Forty-Two", "42=7*9", "RND(X) = 17 for all X", "xxx~~~//][()?", "Live long and prosper", "Pass your maths, guyyz", "Space, it says, is BIG", "We've got you covered", "NEGATIVE shields.", ">M-*k*;%c", "Chewbacca is cuddly", "Apathetic bloddy panic", "Metaphysical Imagery..", "I'm running out of Ink", "BNAG!!!!!", "HNAG!!!!!", "Fs link HNUG?", "CODE+GLAP+DIAGS=0", "** corrupt diags", "** diagnostics looping", "**execution error:ille", "** Segment error", "LIB - *FATAL*", "Edwin error 14.", "[0 XACTIONS AFFECTED]", "I am lying.", "Coruscate, coruscate", "Geezanarra DECtape", ".(", "Type YES to continue", "SAY ""XYZZY""", "SAY ""PLUGH""", "Clams got arms!", "Clams got livers!", "*CRASH*", "FRED OBJ not on DT2", "Alarm set for 08:00", "The Bells....", "*** Spelling errur", "* Processor head crash", "mouldy breadboard err", "sliced breadboard err", "greasy chip error", "Resistance is Useless!", "Production rules OK", "ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz....", "Merde alors", "Foute-moi le camp!", "Scheiss ab!", "Va t'en faire baiser", "Pisse-toi, salaud!", "`X' (attrib Schulze)", "----------------------", "PASCAL is good AS CLAP", "Zaphod's just zis guy.", "Dis is vot ve find....", ".BLISS is ignorance", "Pickle a squirrel", "Eat a beaver", "We hates it...", "Ian was here", "TANSTAAFL", "Elbereth", "Haunting you is fun...", "You need another quote", "EEEEXXXXXcellent !!", "HAUNT HAUNT !!", "TJ's for BMs OK!", "Sauron Lives", "Zap a Balrog - TODAY", "Its a FEATURE!!!", "I shall return...", "Let us pray", "%MOUSES-I-HI_THERE", "Ho, Hummmmmm", "Have a nasty day!", "I WANNA COOKIE!!!", "Share and enjoy", "P_dsno = P_ssno+17", "Suicide is painless", "Laura rules!", "Polly wants a biscuit", "It's the rugby club", "Time for moussaka", "%SLART-E-BARFAAST", "I'm a FORTRAN man!!!", "Nibble a happy warthog", "T. Dream time!!", "Ve are ze robots!!", "yojne dna erahS", "FrreeeyyyOOOWWWW!!!", "Structured BASIC ????", "%Rms-e-korsakoff", "NOPR-ERR", "Clams got legs!!!", "Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!!", "EM Char in stmt", "Mouses rules OK", "IMP yourself today", "Hi there", "Yummmmmmmmm", "Mouses rules OK", "Have a nice day!", "Friend or foe???", "EMAS is great (honest)", "%MTHLIB-E-FLOOVEMAT", "Another silly message", "As you wish, so be it.", "You may call me Mazda.", "Groovy, man.", "%control K'101011'", "PROCESS RUNNING", "movl #^xDEAD, r0", "movl #^xB00B, r0", "Filestore down til 11", "Error: ';' expected", "Another layer of metal", "You have mail from SM", "TEXT FOR F?", "AV nowhere to be found", "BDKH:BAD SEGMENT" %INTEGER %FN random messno %OWN %INTEGER k1 = 0 %INTEGER k2 %CYCLE k1 = (k1*125 + 1) & 16383 k2 = IMOD(k1) k2 = REM(k2,max messages+1) %RESULT = k2 %IF 0 <= k2 <= max messages %REPEAT %END %IF dummy="" %THEN %START num victims = 0 PROMPT("Victim:") %WHILE num victims <= max victims %CYCLE proc name = "" SKIP SYMBOL %WHILE NEXT CH <= ' ' %AND NEXT CH # 25 %EXIT %IF NEXT CH = 25 %WHILE NEXT SYMBOL # NL %CYCLE proc name = proc name . TO STRING(NEXT SYMBOL) SKIP SYMBOL %REPEAT %EXIT %IF proc name = ".end" %OR proc name = ".END" num victims = num victims + 1 victim(num victims) = proc name %REPEAT %FINISH %ELSE %START victim(1) = dummy num victims = 1 %FINISH %CYCLE times = 1, 1, max times D DELAY(delay) %CYCLE this victim = 1, 1, num victims selected = random mess no NOTIFY(victim(this victim)."""".message(selected)) %REPEAT %REPEAT %END %ENDOFFILE ---------- Dr George D M Ross, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@inf.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-296-1034756093-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 04:54:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.81]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9G9sVG04570 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:54:31 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-296-1034756093-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 08:14:53 -0000 X-Sender: psr@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 08:14:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 50253 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 08:14:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 08:14:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 08:14:51 -0000 Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:14:37 +0100 Received: from peter (unverified [80.195.12.135]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:14:37 +0100 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A3F4@puck.iay.org.uk> From: "Peter S Robertson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:14:48 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Andy: imp77 sources Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 579 > > so I'm betting if you ask PSR he'd be > > willing to let you have the sources for the Vax version to work from. > > Try psr (at) blueyonder.co.uk (I am assuming that the source still > > exists but by past experience this is by no means certain. > > The compiler may have gone stiff.) I don't think I have sources, but everyone is welcome to use any that can be found. Peter ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-301-1034776718-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 09:06:28 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.76]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9GE6OG08279 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:06:25 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-301-1034776718-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 13:58:39 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 13:58:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 79712 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 13:58:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 13:58:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 13:58:35 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9GDxJp06332; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:59:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200210161359.g9GDxJp06332@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:59:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] 2900 Emas Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 604 > > an Amdahl boot tape from Roderick McLeod (or is it a 297X tape???) > Sorry Graham it's a 2900 tape. Well, no-one to my knowlege has ever written a 2900 series emulator, but that just means there's all the more need for one :-) It is however well beyond the reach of this project at the moment; the 370 was worth considering because so much of it is written already, but we don't have anyone with the time to work on a 2970 emulator, especially since we have no good working operating system to debug it against. We do however have, in the posession of Bill Laing, some good technical documentation on the 2900 hardware. Bill, any chance of a scan of that document some time for the archive? Also Bill, and others, you mentioned you have a paper listing of some of the emas components Could you check the archive and see if we have the same components already, and if we do, that they're sufficiently similar that there is no need to scan your paper copies? - http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/ If we don't have it, then if you can tell me the file name and perhaps the account it was stored on, we can check the EMAS archives and possibly find a machine readable copy. I'ld still like to get a dump of your 2900 tape just in case someone in the future does decide to try emulating the 2900. Obviously no rush, but some time could you arrange with J Gordon Hughes to mail it to him in Glenrothes so he can read it on his drive there? He recently restored a 6250bpi tape for me that was 20 years old, so I know he has a good tape drive there. (I have another tape ready for him myself, I'm just waiting until he gets back from a trip before I mail it to him). Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-302-1034777923-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 09:21:34 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9GELXG08441 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:21:33 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-302-1034777923-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 14:18:43 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 14:18:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 23209 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 14:18:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 14:18:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 14:18:42 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9GEJQP08421; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:19:26 -0500 Message-Id: <200210161419.g9GEJQP08421@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:19:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] %MOUSES-I-HI_THERE Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 610 Heh, I remember that. Actually I have somewhere a copy of the edinburgh cookie file from VMS. I'll put it on the web site when I remember where it is. (I think on an Archie floppy somewhere) I've filed Haunt under http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/mouses/userfiles/haunt.imp Thanks for checking out your EMAS archive. I think we'd like to have the Mouses stuff you found - could I ask you to put anything you can on our ftp server (ftp.gtoal.com, /incoming - make yourself a subdirectory) and I'll go through it and weed out anything we may already have, and classify and file the rest in an appropriate place in the hierarchy. Much appreciated Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-303-1034782666-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 10:48:34 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.81]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9GFmYG09132 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:48:34 -0500 Message-Id: <200210161548.g9GFmYG09132@gtoal.com> X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-303-1034782666-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 15:37:49 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 15:37:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 6374 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 15:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 15:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO clueless.secondary-mx.co.uk) (217.169.20.20) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 15:37:47 -0000 Received: from [217.169.31.211]([217.169.31.211] HELO:rikki.tavi.co.uk) by clueless.secondary-mx.co.uk for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:37:46 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3dad87c3a; 16 Oct 02 16:37:40 BST To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:37:38 BST Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] 2900 Emas Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 628 ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:59:19 -0500 > > Sorry Graham it's a 2900 tape. I'd be very interested in an image of this. Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-304-1034793353-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 13:45:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9GIjOG10537 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:45:24 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-304-1034793353-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 18:35:53 -0000 X-Sender: roderick.mcleod@orkney.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 18:35:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 52240 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 18:35:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 18:35:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 18:35:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 18:35:52 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200210161359.g9GDxJp06332@gtoal.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Roderick McLeod" X-Originating-IP: 213.122.171.246 X-Yahoo-Profile: roderickrmcleod MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:35:52 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] 2900 Emas Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 645 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Graham Toal wrote: > I'ld still like to get a dump of your 2900 tape just in case someone > in the future does decide to try emulating the 2900. Obviously no > rush, but some time could you arrange with J Gordon Hughes to mail it > to him in Glenrothes so he can read it on his drive there? He recently > restored a 6250bpi tape for me that was 20 years old, so I know he > has a good tape drive there. (I have another tape ready for him > myself, I'm just waiting until he gets back from a trip before I mail > it to him). Will do Roderick ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-305-1034810546-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 18:43:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.104]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9GNhFG13167 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:43:15 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-305-1034810546-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2002 23:22:30 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 23:22:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 40435 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 23:22:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 23:22:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 23:22:05 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9GNMqA12920; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:22:52 -0500 Message-Id: <200210162322.g9GNMqA12920@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:22:52 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Full Imp77 compiler found! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 676 Thanks to IAY finding some floppies, and his serious effort finding a floppy drive which would read them without errors, plus some data forensics by me, we now have a complete Imp77 source for the Acorn ARM chip dating from 1988. This is considerably newer than the Interdata Imp77 for which we had partial files off Mouses. Andy Davis - here's your pass2.imp starting point! http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/acorn/3l/COMPILERS/bend/imp/pass2 I've put everything from the floppies on our site. The root directory is http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/acorn/ Obviously there are some binaries in here and they're Acorn Archimedes format so don't expect them to run unless you have an Archie emulator. I'm really delighted. This is a big find. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-306-1034870778-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 11:09:03 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9HG92G27159 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:09:02 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-306-1034870778-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2002 16:06:18 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 17 Oct 2002 16:06:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 39069 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2002 16:06:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Oct 2002 16:06:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.118) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Oct 2002 16:06:15 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:09:38 +0100 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message To: Message-ID: <13da01c275f7$97a39fd0$7635bcc3@blueyonder.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 Thread-Index: AcJ195ehlml5P2ADR3yFM3ezXFZCeQ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:09:38 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Andy: imp77 sources Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 758 Hi everyone, > > Also, there's one Imp77 still in commercial existence, which is the > > one for Vax/VMS. I've never asked PSR for a copy of this because it > > is still in use (JGH's employer uses it) > > All, astonishingly, true, although I think both the compiler and the > applications are VESTed (binary translated) from VAX to Alpha now... > perhaps JGH can confirm. Yes, Ian is correct. Note that we also use the Imp compiler for the Sun systems,which still runs nicely on the latest Sun Blade hardware. best regards Gordon ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-307-1034871729-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 11:31:34 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9HGVXG27353 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:31:33 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-307-1034871729-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2002 16:22:10 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 17 Oct 2002 16:22:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 80146 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2002 16:22:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Oct 2002 16:22:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.118) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Oct 2002 16:22:09 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:25:32 +0100 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message To: Message-ID: <15f001c275f9$d04deeb0$7635bcc3@blueyonder.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 Thread-Index: AcJ1+dBN6cTy7I1dQq20/Ok2wgPu7A== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:25:32 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] 2900 Emas Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 760 > I'ld still like to get a dump of your 2900 tape just in case someone > in the future does decide to try emulating the 2900. Obviously no > rush, but some time could you arrange with J Gordon Hughes to mail it > to him in Glenrothes so he can read it on his drive there? He recently > restored a 6250bpi tape for me that was 20 years old, so I know he > has a good tape drive there. (I have another tape ready for him > myself, I'm just waiting until he gets back from a trip before I mail > it to him). I am currently in Texas (but not messing with them - a joke for the Texans on thel list) but will be back at work in the UK next week. best regards Gordon ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-308-1034871777-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 11:34:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9HGYdG27375 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:34:39 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-308-1034871777-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2002 16:22:57 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 17 Oct 2002 16:22:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 82106 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2002 16:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Oct 2002 16:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.118) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Oct 2002 16:22:56 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:26:19 +0100 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message To: Message-ID: <15f701c275f9$ec8ac8a0$7635bcc3@blueyonder.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 Thread-Index: AcJ1+eyIIIN94n+2SEWS2CoeKVJpXw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:26:19 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] 2900 Emas Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 761 > I'ld still like to get a dump of your 2900 tape just in case someone > in the future does decide to try emulating the 2900. Obviously no > rush, but some time could you arrange with J Gordon Hughes to mail it > to him in Glenrothes so he can read it on his drive there? He recently > restored a 6250bpi tape for me that was 20 years old, so I know he > has a good tape drive there. (I have another tape ready for him > myself, I'm just waiting until he gets back from a trip before I mail > it to him). I am currently in Texas (but not messing with them - a joke for the Texans on thel list) but will be back at work in the UK next week. best regards Gordon ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-309-1034878754-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 13:24:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.101]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9HIOhG28218 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:24:43 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-309-1034878754-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2002 18:19:15 -0000 X-Sender: andy@nb-info.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 17 Oct 2002 18:19:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 77061 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2002 18:18:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Oct 2002 18:18:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO widow.nb-info.co.uk) (193.132.202.33) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Oct 2002 18:18:52 -0000 Received: from vaioandy (NBLan-36 [193.132.202.36]) by widow.nb-info.co.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/) with SMTP id TAA15508 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:18:49 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <02fc01c27609$88da8240$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> To: Organization: NB Information Limited X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Andy Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: eucshistory MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:18:03 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Imp Compiler Update Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 764 Thank you, to everyone who has provided access to compiler sources. I now have more pass2's than I might have expected. (I'm still half expecting to get one for the 80386 land in my mailbox, but probably in about a month, a few hours after I get mine working). Pass1 (the easy bit) now compiles and runs just fine under my C Skimp compiler. If you're interested, I've added it to the web page at http://imp.nb-info.co.uk/download.htm , although with no pass2 it's a bit like a new toy at Christmas, "batteries not included". Only two problems came up with the C Skimp compiler. One was an error in garbage collecting string literals from the parser table space, which meant it filled up very quickly. The second took a little longer to figure out, but was in the code in C Skimp to fold constant expressions at compile time, and is one of those IMP versus C differences. In IMP, a right shift is always a logical shift - in C, right shifting a signed number is an arithmetic shift. C Skimp is written in C, but was folding expressions for an IMP program. Those of you familiar with the IMP compilers will recognise immediately the line: max int = ((-1)>>1)//10 and given the explanation above, will spot how I might have got that wrong! It's fixed now, and the fixed version of C Skimp is also available on the web site. Meanwhile I'm going to be busy with other matters over the next week or so - it may be a little while before I have the next update. I'm still hoping to have a working pass2 (and pass3) in perhaps 3-4 weeks time. Andy Davis ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-310-1034920199-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 00:51:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.106]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9I5p1G04272 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:51:01 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-310-1034920199-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Oct 2002 05:49:59 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 18 Oct 2002 05:49:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 34479 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2002 05:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Oct 2002 05:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Oct 2002 05:49:56 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9I5ouU04265; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:50:56 -0500 Message-Id: <200210180550.g9I5ouU04265@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:50:56 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] imp77 stuff Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 811 I've written an icode decoder for the older version of icode which is generated by the v8.4 imp77 compiler that Andy is working on. Have a look here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp77/gtoal the decoder is idec.c, and there's a test file test.i with decoded output in test.lis (a small extract of which is included below). However, the useful thing for Andy will be the decode of pass1.i which is in pass1.lis small bug: the interleaving of source with decoded icode gets out of sync the further you go down the file. It appears to be a bug in the first pass of Imp77 because I checked the numbers in the binary and they are indeed wrong. Something for ABD to look for at his leisure. Shouldn't be too hard to find because its easy to see exactly where they get out of synch, so look at the code that parses whatever type of construct is near the offending line numbers. Having re-familiarised myself with icode I'm giving serious thought to writing a pass2 which generates simple C code rather than machine-specific binary; it may be a factor or 2 or 3 slower than a true compiler but it will be very portable. And 2 or 3 times slower than current hardware is still 100 times faster than what we used when Imp was a living language! Graham Edinburgh IMP77 Compiler - Version 8.4 LANG 0000 LINE 0 1 %begin BEGIN LINE 1 2 %integer global DEF V_0001 GLOBAL + 0x0011 + 0x0001 + 0x0000 ... 10 local = 16_dead; array(6) = 0 PUSH V_0003 PUSHI #0x0000dead ASSVAL LINE 9 PUSH V_0004 PUSHI #0x00000006 ACCESS PUSHI #0x00000000 ASSVAL LINE 10 11 global = 16_beef + array(6) PUSH V_0001 PUSHI #0x0000beef PUSH V_0004 PUSHI #0x00000006 ACCESS ADD ASSVAL LINE 11 12 %if local<<16!global = 16_deadbeef %then %monitor PUSH V_0003 PUSHI #0x00000010 LSH PUSH V_0001 OR PUSHI #0xdeadbeef JUMPIF # L_0004 MONITOR LOCATE L_0004 LINE 12 13 %end END LOCATE L_0000 LINE 14 ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-311-1034951497-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 09:40:12 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.104]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9IEe9G08749 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:40:10 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-311-1034951497-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Oct 2002 14:31:37 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 18 Oct 2002 14:31:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 19634 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2002 14:30:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Oct 2002 14:30:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (62.30.72.185) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Oct 2002 14:30:35 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4FMFS5QQ>; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:32:15 +0100 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A41D@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" Cc: "'gtoal@gtoal.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:32:14 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] imp77 stuff Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 838 > I've written an icode decoder for the older version of icode > which is generated by the v8.4 imp77 compiler that Andy is working > on. Have a look here: > http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp77/gtoal > > the decoder is idec.c, and there's a test file test.i with decoded > output in test.lis (a small extract of which is included below). For reference, I'm pretty sure I have sources of one of those kicking around elsewhere. I don't have time to look for it right now, but may try and dig it up in November. -- Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-312-1035199487-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 06:25:14 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.64]) by gtoal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9LBPD120410 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 06:25:13 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-312-1035199487-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Oct 2002 11:24:47 -0000 X-Sender: c.whitfield@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 21 Oct 2002 11:24:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 72293 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2002 11:24:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Oct 2002 11:24:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Oct 2002 11:24:45 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:24:45 +0100 Received: from OCTAVIA.blueyonder.co.uk (unverified [80.195.45.90]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:24:45 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018220441.02b4fae0@pop3.attglobal.net> X-Sender: cw011a5500@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200210180550.g9I5ouU04265@gtoal.com> X-eGroups-From: Chris Whitfield From: Chris Whitfield X-Yahoo-Profile: kit_whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:24:33 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] imp77 stuff Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 > >small bug: the interleaving of source with decoded icode gets out >of sync the further you go down the file. It appears to be a bug >in the first pass of Imp77 because I checked the numbers in the >binary and they are indeed wrong. Something for ABD to look for >at his leisure. Shouldn't be too hard to find because its easy to >see exactly where they get out of synch, so look at the code that >parses whatever type of construct is near the offending line >numbers. I'd be pretty sure there's something odd going on here. The 8.4 first pass was used heavily at Moray House for writing relatively large application programs and for about a year at Lattice Logic. So far as I know there was never a problem with the diagnostics reporting incorrect line numbers. I've spoken to Peter R. who is of the same opinion. Cheers Chris. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-313-1035573387-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 14:17:11 2002 Received: from n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.80]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9PJHAkq022598 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:17:10 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-313-1035573387-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Oct 2002 19:16:30 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 25 Oct 2002 19:16:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 9133 invoked from network); 25 Oct 2002 19:16:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Oct 2002 19:16:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Oct 2002 19:16:28 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9PJH7JU022593; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:17:07 -0500 Message-Id: <200210251917.g9PJH7JU022593@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:17:07 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Roderick's EMAS2900 tape Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 146 JGH mailed me the contents of the EMAS2900 tape today to put on the archive: There were two tapesets: one was version 1.15 of the subsystem source, which I've put here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/emas2/subsystem/total0115s.imp (the later version 3.02 of the same source is also in that directory) The other is the EMAS2900 boot tape - it would appear to be a Ram image ready to load into some address and then jump to an appropriate starting point. The raw tape is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/emas2/boottape/boottape.bin and a 'dumpfile' ascii listing (12Mb) is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/emas2/boottape/boottape.asc The data is the same repeated EMPTY block until offset 000cc000. I don't suppose any of our members who are familiar with the 29xx architecture, and EMAS, have the time or inclination to start a 29XX emulation project? (One name that springs to mind who has both the skill *and* the documentation is Bill Laing ;-) ) We have all the pieces we'd need - binary boot tape and all the sources. Writing emulators is one of the more enjoyable programming projects you can do (I know, I've done two already) but they need to be done by someone who already knows the architecture well and that ain't me this time. I scoured the net and cannot find any existing 29XX emulators, which is a real shame because if one existed we'd pretty much be ready to run. We'd be in a better position to emulate the Amdahl EMAS because there already exists an emulator for that, *but* we don't have as full a set of sources, nor do we have the 370 Imp80 compiler. So there would be quite a lot more work involved in getting to the point where we could actually use the existing emulator. (find imp80, cross-compile it, generate EMAS binaries, build 370 boot tape - maybe also need to build an emas filing system on disk and populate it with the cross-compiled binaries). Not twisting any arms, just throwing it out as an idea if anyone is interested. Meanwhile, here's a note from Gordon on the tape contents. Graham ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The analysis of the tape was: Tape density = 1600 bpi. 1 block of 264 bytes Tape mark 124 blocks of 4096 bytes Tape mark Tape mark 648 blocks of 4096 bytes Tape mark Tape mark The first block was a tape label block containing the label "EMAS". (This would normally be 80 bytes, and was padded to 264 by 16_81's) The two files on the tape are attached to this message. Although both were fixed 4096 byte blocks on the tape, they will just be byte streams in the attached .TAR file. I don't have Roderick or Bob's e-mail addresses at work so you may want to forward this to them. My question to Roderick is - is this what you expected from the tape. Again the tape read without any errors. Best Regards, Gordon Hughes ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Looking for a more powerful website? Try GeoCities for $8.95 per month. Register your domain name (http://your-name.com). More storage! No ads! http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info http://us.click.yahoo.com/auyVXB/KJoEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-314-1035650967-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 11:50:18 2002 Received: from n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.83]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9QGoGkq001542 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:50:17 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-314-1035650967-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Oct 2002 16:49:28 -0000 X-Sender: blaing@windows.microsoft.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 26 Oct 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 33886 invoked from network); 26 Oct 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Oct 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.microsoft.com) (131.107.3.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Oct 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: from mail6.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.196]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:49:25 -0700 Received: from inet-vrs-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.181]) by mail6.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:49:25 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.150 by inet-vrs-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:49:23 -0700 Received: from RED-IMC-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by INET-HUB-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:49:25 -0700 Received: from WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by RED-IMC-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:49:24 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.52]) by WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3663.0); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:49:23 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6771.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <4AEE3169443CDD4796CA8A00B02191CD06CBEDCD@win-msg-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ed-comp-hist] Roderick's EMAS2900 tape Thread-Index: AcJ8Wvt2ObEljYyfQWq2lfVpdyWNvwAtE6rc To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2002 16:49:23.0912 (UTC) FILETIME=[A3659480:01C27D0F] From: "Bill Laing" X-Yahoo-Profile: blaingfeb MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:49:27 -0700 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Roderick's EMAS2900 tape Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 157 I am interested in doing "(One name that springs to mind who has both the skill *and* the documentation is Bill Laing ;-) )" but my current workload at work is pretty intense and I don't have the time to even get started at the moment. I will at least try to get the ICL 2900 PLI scanned in. I don't know if we would need clearance to put it on the Web as it is ICL confidential and is a numbered copy. /Bill _____ From: Graham Toal [mailto:gtoal@gtoal.com] Sent: Fri 10/25/2002 12:17 PM To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Roderick's EMAS2900 tape JGH mailed me the contents of the EMAS2900 tape today to put on the archive: There were two tapesets: one was version 1.15 of the subsystem source, which I've put here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/emas2/subsystem/total0115s.imp (the later version 3.02 of the same source is also in that directory) The other is the EMAS2900 boot tape - it would appear to be a Ram image ready to load into some address and then jump to an appropriate starting point. The raw tape is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/emas2/boottape/boottape.bin and a 'dumpfile' ascii listing (12Mb) is here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/emas/emas2/boottape/boottape.asc The data is the same repeated EMPTY block until offset 000cc000. I don't suppose any of our members who are familiar with the 29xx architecture, and EMAS, have the time or inclination to start a 29XX emulation project? (One name that springs to mind who has both the skill *and* the documentation is Bill Laing ;-) ) We have all the pieces we'd need - binary boot tape and all the sources. Writing emulators is one of the more enjoyable programming projects you can do (I know, I've done two already) but they need to be done by someone who already knows the architecture well and that ain't me this time. I scoured the net and cannot find any existing 29XX emulators, which is a real shame because if one existed we'd pretty much be ready to run. We'd be in a better position to emulate the Amdahl EMAS because there already exists an emulator for that, *but* we don't have as full a set of sources, nor do we have the 370 Imp80 compiler. So there would be quite a lot more work involved in getting to the point where we could actually use the existing emulator. (find imp80, cross-compile it, generate EMAS binaries, build 370 boot tape - maybe also need to build an emas filing system on disk and populate it with the cross-compiled binaries). Not twisting any arms, just throwing it out as an idea if anyone is interested. Meanwhile, here's a note from Gordon on the tape contents. Graham ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The analysis of the tape was: Tape density = 1600 bpi. 1 block of 264 bytes Tape mark 124 blocks of 4096 bytes Tape mark Tape mark 648 blocks of 4096 bytes Tape mark Tape mark The first block was a tape label block containing the label "EMAS". (This would normally be 80 bytes, and was padded to 264 by 16_81's) The two files on the tape are attached to this message. Although both were fixed 4096 byte blocks on the tape, they will just be byte streams in the attached .TAR file. I don't have Roderick or Bob's e-mail addresses at work so you may want to forward this to them. My question to Roderick is - is this what you expected from the tape. Again the tape read without any errors. Best Regards, Gordon Hughes To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-315-1035846794-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 17:14:27 2002 Received: from n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.69]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9SNEPkq020262 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:14:26 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-315-1035846794-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Oct 2002 23:13:14 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 28 Oct 2002 23:13:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 25381 invoked from network); 28 Oct 2002 23:13:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Oct 2002 23:13:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 2002 23:13:11 -0000 Received: from pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:13:06 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [62.31.70.209]) by pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:58:59 +0000 Message-ID: <001c01c27ed5$a3d87140$d1461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <196008060806.DAA13315@gtoal.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:59:13 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some working Imp compilers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 Peter Robertson wrote: > I don't think I have sources, but everyone is welcome to > use any that can be found. Taking Peter at his word, I have made available two binary versions of Peter's Imp compilers which I still use on a daily basis. These can be found at the following links: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp77/vax-vms/ and http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp77/sun/ What systems they are for is left as an exercise for the reader. Those giving up can read the "readme" files in the directories. Both are working compilers, but (particularly the VMS one) may have problems owing to fix record files being converted into binary. Please contact me if you try to use them and have problems. I am using them on a daily basis, with some quite complex programs, so I can vouch for their usefulness when they are correctly installed on the systems. The configuration files may also provide people with some interesting reading. best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-316-1035904840-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 09:59:32 2002 Received: from n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.89]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id g9TFxUkq000898 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:59:31 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-316-1035904840-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Oct 2002 15:20:41 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 29 Oct 2002 15:20:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 93736 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2002 15:06:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Oct 2002 15:06:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Oct 2002 15:06:26 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g9TF7gZS000607 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:07:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200210291507.g9TF7gZS000607@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:07:42 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Who wrote draft4? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 I'm trying to remember who wrote the draft4 program. I have a sort of vague impression it might have been Ken Chisholm? Whoever it was, let me know please. If the author is here (Ken?), was this written from scratch or was it a port? I remember that it was said to use Samuel's Checkers algorithm for learning though the source we found has no learning code. The only name in the source is JGH but I think he was just doing some minor EMAS support to it. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-317-1036335026-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Nov 3 08:50:38 2002 Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gA3EoaY7010777 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:50:37 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-317-1036335026-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 14:50:26 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 14:50:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 28548 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 14:50:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 14:50:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 14:50:24 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id gA3EoXhM010773; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:50:33 -0600 Message-Id: <200211031450.gA3EoXhM010773@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:50:33 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] We have access to the EMAS archive! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 324 Thanks to Andrew McKendrick and Keith Farvis, with technical help from Gavin Gray, we now have access to the EMAS archive! I have looked over 7 different accounts so far that Andrew has processed the permissions for and there are many more to follow. Notable so far are David Rees' EMAS4/75 version of Skimp, which is the first program to be put back online: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/skimp/ - he also has DCAP and ILAP sources which I will be adding. [Andy Davis: if you are still working on scanning the Skimp MkII manual and fixing typos - you may be able to replace all the listing parts by taking the original sources directly] There's also a PDP11 assembler which I think may be the back end of the PDP11 imp compiler we found earlier. Peter Ross's directories contained some AI2LOGO and PROLOG programs, and significantly he also had a copy of Hamish's POP2 interpreter written in Imp - one that I think we have a fair chance of getting to run again without too much effort (I just have to fake EMAS's DEFINE command and connect() procedure) The POP2 source also had a version called "LOGOPOP" which was a logo-like extension created by reading in a predef file of pop2 code; unfortunately that predef file is missing. I'll be looking for it later in other places. Jeff Tansley had some source that I remember: I wrote a replacement 'users' command for emas which listed people by name and not just by number (it got the user list from Sandy Shaw's mailer process); when I found that code I was surprised because I thought I remembered that it also printed out where people were logged on from some database which was entered by hand - I have a vague memory of going round many terminals running a program to identify them in the database - but the source I found didn't include that. Well, Jeff's files did include that program! It appears to have been written by someone else though I'm not yet sure who; and it uses some of my code - so I may have been involved with it which is why I vaguely remember it. That's about as much as I've identified so far of interest; I'll keep you posted and let you know where the files are placed on the web site when I upload them. The next big index I'm hoping to get access to is ECSLIB... if they've been preserved, I know there are some files on there of interest, including Peter Robertson's Imp Interpreter, and I think some RTM kit support files. By the way I spent the week before last working on Imp77 to C and it is doing quite well; I haven't done any work on it last week as other things have come up, but with luck I'll be able to work on it most of next week. I've realised that with only minor tweaks I can also generate Java, so there's a possibility that we'll be able to run standalone %begin/%endofprogram imp files on web pages! (I need to learn java first, or at least enough to write a Hello World program! - but that'll come *after* regular Imp77 to C is finished.) Having both Imp80 to C and Imp77 to C will be a real boon because there's a lot of work involved in converting Imp77 sources to Imp80 or vice-versa, and I'm getting a little tired of all these edits! However even with those we still have problems with old EMAS 4/75 sources which contain constructs that neither Imp80 nor Imp77 support, like %WHILE ... %THEN ..., and numeric labels, among others. I think I may hack my imp80 parser to accept those constructs and spit out a clean imp80 source, rather than editing every program we find by hand. (I case I wasn't clear, I'm editing them to make them compile, but the sources listed in the archive will be the original historically accurate copies; these hacks are just so we can get the programs to run again, if they're interesting enough, such as the AI2LOGO and POP2 interpreters) I'm also working on a 'compile and go' version of PDP15 imp, which will allow you to create a file something like the following on Unix... #!/usr/local/bin/imp15 %BEGIN %PRINTTEXT 'Hello World' NEWLINE %ENDOFPROGRAM and just by typing the name of this file, it will run the program immediately by compiling it on the fly and running the emulator on the compiled image in ram. The compiler is so fast that even the largest program that the machine supports can be compiled in what we used to call 'carriage return time'... Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-318-1036819267-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 23:21:43 2002 Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gA95LfwA007735 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:21:42 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-318-1036819267-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 05:21:07 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 05:21:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 54127 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 05:21:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 05:21:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 05:21:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 05:20:59 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200211031450.gA3EoXhM010773@gtoal.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 05:20:55 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: We have access to the EMAS archive! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 504 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Graham Toal wrote: > the permissions for and there are many more to follow. Notable > so far are David Rees' EMAS4/75 version of Skimp, which is the first > program to be put back online: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/skimp/ On closer examination of Skimp and the ERCC's PDP11 compiler, it would appear the PDP11 compiler was originally based on Skimp and then grew some! I had always heard that skimp had been used to bootstrap real compilers but I had never known exactly which one that referred to. > Peter Ross's directories contained some AI2LOGO and PROLOG programs, > and significantly he also had a copy of Hamish's POP2 interpreter > written in Imp - one that I think we have a fair chance of getting to > run again without too much effort (I just have to fake EMAS's DEFINE > command and connect() procedure> By the way I spent the week before POP2 is in http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/pop2/ > things have come up, but with luck I'll be able to work on it most of > next week Unfortunately something fairly important did come up so I wasn't able to work on either version of Imp much this week (Peter Stephen's or mine) but on the other hand I do now have a very simple to install and/or modify 802.11B authenticating gateway that boots off a credit-card-sized CD, if it's of any use to anyone. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-319-1037817035-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 13:03:08 2002 Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gAKJ32CD001602 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:03:07 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-319-1037817035-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 18:30:36 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 18:30:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 11948 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 18:30:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 18:30:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 18:30:28 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id gAKIURNv001450; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:30:27 -0600 Message-Id: <200211201830.gAKIURNv001450@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:30:27 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Can anyone read 8" floppies? (esp pdp11) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 836 Chris Mellish has found some 8" floppies which probably contain the sources of his pdp11 Prolog system. Does anyone have an 8" drive that might be able to read these? Preferably to read in pdp11 format (don't know which format yet; I've asked him, but I suspect RSX11) Even if you can't decode pdp11 formats, just reading the raw sectors will be enough; there are lots of folks on the net in the computing history arena who will be able to decode a binary dump. Thanks Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-320-1038526117-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 17:29:09 2002 Received: from n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.80]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gASNT8kx028205 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 17:29:08 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-320-1038526117-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2002 23:28:37 -0000 X-Sender: andy@nb-info.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 23:28:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 65963 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 23:28:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 23:28:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO widow.nb-info.co.uk) (193.132.202.33) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 23:28:35 -0000 Received: from vaioandy (NBLan-36 [193.132.202.36]) by widow.nb-info.co.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/) with SMTP id XAA25251 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:28:34 GMT Message-ID: <00a901c29735$d7dad960$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> To: Organization: NB Information Limited X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Andy Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: eucshistory MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:28:22 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] IMP Compiler Update Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Here's some news on my IMP compiler progress. The good news is that I have a (more or less) fully working IMP-77 compiler - you can download it from http://imp.nb-info.co.uk (The only caveat is to do with catching events). The bad news is for all you UNIX hackers - this version is still stuck in a 16-bit MS-DOS timewarp. There are good reasons to do with tools and compatibility why I've done this as a small step rather than giant leap, so you'll just have to be patient while I try to get my head around COFF (and how Microsoft and Sun can both implement a "standard" and still come up with different answers). Feedback welcome, as always. Andy Davis PS: If anybody has any views on the relative merits of putting markers in the stack frame versus markers in the code segment versus tables of entry points as a way of "finding" the correct event handler for a block, I'm interested... To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-321-1038533103-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 19:25:36 2002 Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gAT1PZkx028774 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:25:36 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-321-1038533103-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2002 01:25:03 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 01:25:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 92840 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 01:25:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 01:25:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 01:25:02 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id gAT1PXoA028770; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:25:33 -0600 Message-Id: <200211290125.gAT1PXoA028770@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:25:33 -0600 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] IMP Compiler Update Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Here's some news on my IMP compiler progress. The good news is that I have > a (more or less) fully working IMP-77 compiler - you can download it from > http://imp.nb-info.co.uk (The only caveat is to do with catching events). Damn, you're quick! You beat me to it - well done! And I had the advantage of being unemployed with a lot of time on my hands :-) > compatibility why I've done this as a small step rather than giant leap, so > you'll just have to be patient while I try to get my head around COFF (and > how Microsoft and Sun can both implement a "standard" and still come up with > different answers). Can I suggest getting in touch with Peter Stephens and aiming for binary compatibility with Imp80? He'll be able to advise you on COFF format and your event/backtrace question too. His Imp80 is very compatible with C (and GCC) on both Unix and cygwin. It looks like a fine piece of work. I hope you don't take offence if I pick a nit this soon after release, but I read something in your web page which is definitely wrong and I'ld like to twist your arm to change before the compiler is widely released: > IMP programs and routines can also call C routines. Unlike the C-SKIMP >compiler however it has not been possible to achieve complete parameter >compatibility - the IMP-77 intermediate code forces the compiler to process >parameter lists from left to right, whereas C compilers generally work from >right to left. Thus: >%externalroutinespec fred(%integer a, %longreal r) >becomes: >void fred(double r, int a) >In practice this quirk is easily accommodated. I think there's some confusion here between the order of evaluation and the order they're pushed on the stack. I think you're right that Imp does force left-to-right evaluation (at least as far as side effects of function calls used as parameters are concerned, which is the only place where it matters) and that C is lax about it, but it would be a foolish C compiler writer who didn't implement or simulate left to right evaluation. The order in which they're stacked doesn't have to match the order in which they're evaluated, though of course it's always easier if they match. The params may turn out to be in the wrong order for C compatibility if you treat icode's stack-based instructions as a virtual machine, but if you use it in the way it is intended for and treat it as input to a compiling engine, then you process the stack at compile time into whatever form you want (such as regenerating an abstract syntax tree) and therefore you can generate the code in whatever order you want from this intermediate data structure. I know this works because I've done it (about a week ago as it happens). Peter Stephens Imp80 to C also maps Imp calls to C calls in the obvious order. It would make writing a common library quite awkward if you implement yours differently. Anyway, icode doesn't *force* it as you said; it just makes it a lot more tempting to do it the easy way. I have some more Imp compiler news by the way; Peter Stephens has ported his Imp80 to Win32 and it now seems to be quite robust. I had some problems with the version which generated binaries directly (it behaved differently for me than it did for him - I may have had a slightly different version of cygwin from him) but his version which generates .s files rather than .o files works perfectly. We use gcc as a back-end assembler and linker. I'll put it on the web site tomorrow - today is not a working day for me as it's Thanksgiving over here and my wife expects to me take a break and join her in overindulging with turkey and movies. I should point out that I haven't been holding out on you with this compiler - I've been rather busy with job interviews recently and only had a chance to do final testing prior to release last night! Pretty damned good timing of Andy to release his today :-) I believe Peter is now looking at the Unix version again. I mailed him a Unix system on a disk drive and he's installed it in his PC which he can now dual-boot. If he makes progress on that as quickly as he did on the Win32 version we should see something by the end of the year. My own Imp77 compiler which uses C as an intermediate code (I phrase it that way rather than calling it an Imp77-to-C translator, because the C is not intended to be modified by a person - it's given to GCC then silently deleted) is coming along very nicely, and indeed is something like 95% complete. The 5% includes things like multi-dimensional array declarations (which I've been working on the support code for, like you - it's tricky, isn't it!), switches, and initialised declarations. Not because they're hard, just that I haven't got round to them yet. Actually I'm interested to see that you've chosen to use a dope vector and scaling for multi-D arrays. I did mine using an Iliffe vector. That may be a mistake on my part as you can't get a 100% match with Imp77 semantics, but it's close enough that I don't think any of the programs we've recovered in this project would be affected by the difference. If they are I may re-do that after it's all working, or make it a compile-time option if needed for compatibility with some C program. You can have a look at the work-in-progress; I've just run your pass2.imp through my C back end; here's an excerpt from it: %routine modrmmem(%integer reg1, %integer base, %integer disp) %integer mod, rm, reloc; reloc = base>>4; base = base & 15; %if base = 0 %start; ! no register, just a displacement ! mod = 000, rm = 110 putbyte((reg1 << 3) ! 6); relocateoffset(reloc, disp); %else %if disp = 0 %start mod = 0 %else %if issmall(disp) # 0 %start; ! fits in one byte mod = 1 %else mod = 2 %finish %finish -------- becomes -------- void modrmmem(int reg1, int base, int disp) { int mod; int rm; int reloc; reloc = (base >> 4); base = (base & 15); if (base != 0) goto L_0028; putbyte(((reg1 << 3) | 6)); relocateoffset(reloc, disp); goto L_0029; L_0028: if (disp != 0) goto L_002a; mod = 0; goto L_002b; L_002a: if (issmall(disp) == 0) goto L_002c; mod = 1; goto L_002d; L_002c: mod = 2; L_002d: L_002b: G To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-322-1039484244-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Dec 9 20:02:14 2002 Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.91]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBA22DTs030020 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:02:14 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-322-1039484244-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2002 01:37:24 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Dec 2002 01:37:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 59445 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2002 01:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2002 01:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2002 01:37:21 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id gBA1dg6C029854; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:39:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200212100139.gBA1dg6C029854@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:39:42 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Fire in Edinburgh? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 332 My dad mailed me today to report that there had been a fire in Edinburgh and that parts of the AI department had burned down. Does anyone know how serious it was and whether or not the AI Library is lost? There were several theses on record there which I had hopes of scanning next time I was in Scotland. It would be a grave loss if the AI library is gone. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-323-1039508873-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 02:32:39 2002 Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBA8WcTs032506 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:32:38 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-323-1039508873-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2002 08:27:53 -0000 X-Sender: ian@iay.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Dec 2002 08:27:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 62921 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2002 08:27:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2002 08:27:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO puck.iay.org.uk) (80.195.34.13) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2002 08:27:51 -0000 Received: by puck.iay.org.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:29:10 -0000 Message-ID: <81052E5E41C2B2468A7EA6A303646BED05A4F7@puck.iay.org.uk> To: "'edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) From: Ian Young X-Yahoo-Profile: iayuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:29:06 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Fire in Edinburgh? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 346 > -----Original Message----- > From: Graham Toal [mailto:gtoal@gtoal.com] > Sent: 10 December 2002 01:40 > To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com > Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com > Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Fire in Edinburgh? > > My dad mailed me today to report that there had been a fire > in Edinburgh and that parts of the AI department had burned > down. Does anyone know how serious it was and whether or not > the AI Library is lost? According to the EU Library web site: http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/news/aifire.shtml "The Artificial Intelligence Library has been destroyed in the major fire." Informatics: http://www.informatics.ed.ac.uk/emergency/ "Tragically, the AI library collection is almost certainly a total loss." -- Ian To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-324-1039509928-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 02:47:55 2002 Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBA8lsTs032602 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:47:54 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-324-1039509928-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2002 08:45:29 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Dec 2002 08:45:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 85806 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2002 08:45:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2002 08:45:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2002 08:45:27 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.at1.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.202.242]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id IAA22544; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:45:04 GMT Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBA8j4b06491; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:45:04 GMT Message-Id: <200212100845.gBA8j4b06491@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20021104 11/04/2002 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 09 Dec 2002 19:39:42 CST." <200212100139.gBA1dg6C029854@gtoal.com> From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:45:04 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Fire in Edinburgh? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 349 > My dad mailed me today to report that there had been a fire in Edinburgh > and that parts of the AI department had burned down. Does anyone know > how serious it was and whether or not the AI Library is lost? The North end of the building is a total wreck, and will probably have to be demolished. The other half looks OK from the outside, and certainly the area round the firesafe was reasonably intact, all things considered, but it remains to be seen how much internal damage there's been. It appears at the moment that the fire started somewhere around a night club below us in the Cowgate. The AI library is probably a goner, but there is a suggestion that some of the separate report stores may have survived. It'll be a few days yet until what's left of the building is safe enough to allow salvage work. As Ian says, check our web site for more up-to-date information. -- Dr George D M Ross, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@inf.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-325-1039528410-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 08:29:51 2002 Received: from n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.90]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBAETmTs002022 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:29:50 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-325-1039528410-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2002 13:53:30 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Dec 2002 13:53:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 43658 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2002 13:53:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2002 13:53:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (212.38.179.176) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2002 13:53:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 26294 invoked by uid 501); 10 Dec 2002 13:53:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20021210135324.26293.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <200212100139.gBA1dg6C029854@gtoal.com> (message from Graham Toal on Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:39:42 -0600) References: <200212100139.gBA1dg6C029854@gtoal.com> From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 10 Dec 2002 13:53:24 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Fire in Edinburgh? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 368 > My dad mailed me today to report that there had been a fire in Edinburgh > and that parts of the AI department had burned down. I've not seen much news footage, but the best online report I came across was The Herald's site (www.theherald.co.uk). It mentioned damage to "Informatics" (I don't know what that is). -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-326-1039534579-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 09:41:32 2002 Received: from n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.85]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBAFfRTs002424 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:41:31 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-326-1039534579-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2002 15:36:19 -0000 X-Sender: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Dec 2002 15:36:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 2334 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2002 15:36:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2002 15:36:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2002 15:36:15 -0000 Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.199.4]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id PAA07040 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:36:14 GMT Received: from may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (IDENT:gdmr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by may.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBAFaEP08252 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:36:14 GMT Message-Id: <200212101536.gBAFaEP08252@may.dcs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5_20021104 11/04/2002 with nmh-1.0.4 X-Image-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/gdmr.tif X-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/ X-Pgp-Keyid: AD758CC5 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 X-Pgp-Url: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/gdmr/PGP-DSA-key.asc To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Your message of "10 Dec 2002 13:53:24 GMT." <20021210135324.26293.qmail@cassiel.com> From: George Ross MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:36:13 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Fire in Edinburgh? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 369 > ... "Informatics" (I don't know what that is). It's what DCS, DAI and CogSci, plus a bunch of research institutes, became when we got glued together! -- Dr George D M Ross, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ Mail: gdmr@inf.ed.ac.uk Voice: +44 131 650 5147 Fax: +44 131 667 7209 PGP DSA: 1024/AD758CC5 B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A 426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-327-1039536106-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Dec 10 12:14:38 2002 Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBAIEZTs003354 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:14:37 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-327-1039536106-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2002 16:01:47 -0000 X-Sender: wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Dec 2002 16:01:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 70376 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2002 16:01:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2002 16:01:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO iona.dcs.gla.ac.uk) (130.209.240.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2002 16:01:45 -0000 Received: from ross.dcs.gla.ac.uk ([130.209.242.181] helo=dcs.gla.ac.uk) by iona.dcs.gla.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 18LmpL-00005w-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:01:43 +0000 Sender: wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk Message-ID: <3DF60FE6.9FE73289@dcs.gla.ac.uk> Organization: University of Glasgow X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9-13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com References: <200212100139.gBA1dg6C029854@gtoal.com> <20021210135324.26293.qmail@cassiel.com> From: Paul Cockshott MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:01:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Fire in Edinburgh? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 373 Nick Rothwell wrote: > > My dad mailed me today to report that there had been a fire in Edinburgh > > and that parts of the AI department had burned down. > > I've not seen much news footage, but the best online report I came > across was The Herald's site (www.theherald.co.uk). It mentioned > damage to "Informatics" (I don't know what that is). > > -- > > nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. It is what used to be the AIAI building on the south bridge that burned down [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-328-1039791646-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Dec 13 09:04:22 2002 Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBDF4KTs029939 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:04:21 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-328-1039791646-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Dec 2002 15:00:46 -0000 X-Sender: J.Maddock@ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Dec 2002 15:00:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 40709 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2002 15:00:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2002 15:00:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2002 15:00:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Dec 2002 15:00:43 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "ercc08 " X-Originating-IP: 129.215.200.68 X-Yahoo-Profile: ercc08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:00:42 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Another old buffer appears from the past. Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 499 Hi y'all. I worked for the EMAS project, on secondment from what is now BT, in 1978 & 1979 and full-time from 1980 to 1985. My main area was IPL/Chopsupe and porting it between the various 2900 models and to the IBM 370 architecture. I should get access to my portion of the EMAS archive early next week and will post again with details of anything interesting. Regards, John. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-329-1039793761-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Dec 13 09:39:03 2002 Received: from n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.83]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBDFd1Ts030188 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:39:02 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-329-1039793761-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Dec 2002 15:36:02 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Dec 2002 15:36:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 35357 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2002 15:36:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2002 15:36:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2002 15:36:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Dec 2002 15:35:54 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal " X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:35:53 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Another old buffer appears from the past. Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 501 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, "ercc08 " wrote: > Hi y'all. > > I worked for the EMAS project, on secondment from what is now BT, in > 1978 & 1979 and full-time from 1980 to 1985. > > My main area was IPL/Chopsupe and porting it between the various > 2900 models and to the IBM 370 architecture. > > I should get access to my portion of the EMAS archive early next week > and will post again with details of anything interesting. Welcome, John! I don't know if you've had a chance to read through many of our older postings at yahoo, but Roderick McLeod managed to find a 2900 boot tape a few months ago. We've given a little thought to the idea of bringing EMAS back some day under emulation, when we have enough of the pieces and an appropriate emulator. There is no 29XX series emulator, but there is an IBM390 emulator which also emulates several other machines and we think that will include the Amdahl. Unfortunately we haven't yet found an IBM boot tape, so if you happen to chance across one when you look through your old archives, please let us know. (Normally we just ask people for sources, but a boot image - I think you called it a 'secure tape' - is a big exception) To everyone else who had an early EMAS account who I'd spoken to earlier about getting access to the files (with the exceptions of David Rees, Jeff Tansley and Peter Ross whose archives we've already had signed off and fully trawled for goodies), I'll be getting in touch with you again to finalise the paperwork needed so that we (or you yourselves) can look through those archives; Andrew McKendrick has opened up all the archives he's allowed to so far - he needs signed release slips before we can go any further. Merry Christmas to everyone. If I have your address you'll be getting a card from Texas - if I don't, you're welcome to mail it to me! Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-330-1040405948-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Dec 20 11:43:19 2002 Received: from n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.65]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBKHhIOu026300 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:43:19 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-330-1040405948-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Dec 2002 17:39:09 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Dec 2002 17:39:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 87864 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2002 17:39:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2002 17:39:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2002 17:39:07 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id gBKHhFeA026295; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:43:15 -0600 Message-Id: <200212201743.gBKHhFeA026295@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:43:15 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some 4/75 goodies! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 753 Andrew McKendrick turned up with some EMAS 4/75 (emas-a) files today, including the first ever all-imp compiler - earlier ones still had some embedded machine code in them. This one was written in 1970, and shares double honors as being on of the files on the first tape written to archive when Alex Wight's EMAS archiver went online in 1972. Although several tapes have been reused over the years, Andrew made a point of ensuring that this first tape was always copied to new media, with the result that we now have copies of these historically significant files. G To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-331-1040596505-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Dec 22 16:39:37 2002 Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBMMdZOu010773 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:39:36 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-331-1040596505-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Dec 2002 22:35:05 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Dec 2002 22:35:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 71526 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2002 22:35:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2002 22:35:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2002 22:35:03 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id gBMMdX5M010769; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:39:33 -0600 Message-Id: <200212222239.gBMMdX5M010769@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:39:33 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] calling all compiler writers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 845 Last year a kid on one of the other mailing lists I'm on (dynamic object code translation/emulation) mentioned he was writing his first compiler, and although my own experience up to that point was really just with DJR's Skimp plus kibbitzing over Peter Stephen's, PSR's and Hamish's Imp compilers, I did try to offer what help I could. It turned out I remembered more than I thought I would, and our discussions were very helpful - to both of us; In fact our discussions were what convinced me to have a go at writing an Imp compiler myself. Well, the mailing list where we were having these chats folded, so rather than take it to private mail (because a lot of people were enjoying listening to the design work we were doing) we started a new yahoo group just for blethers about how to write your first compiler - we called it "compilers 101" (which probably means more if you're an American. Roughly translates as "CS1") and 16 people from the old list signed up so they could follow the ongoing chats. The thing is, the student has now bypassed the teacher and I'm running out of advice to offer. He's now at the stage of implementing CSE's, and I taught him the method Hamish taught me some years ago - converting a tree into a DAG by recognising duplicated triples. That's about as far as I can go without merely parroting what anyone can read in books, but the purpose of our little mailing list is that people with real experience will give help to folks genuinely interested in both learning and doing. So... I'ld like to invite any/all of the folks here who have written compilers, if you are willing to spend a couple of minutes a day, to join our mailing list and see if you can pass on your collected wisdom. As well as the folks mentioned above, I'm thinking that Andy Davis, Rainer Thonnes, Chris Whitfield, Paul Cockshott and Ian Young could also all be possible mentors for the new generation. (If I've missed any other compiler writers from the list it's accidental I assure you!) This mailing list teaches by the Socratic Method of question and answer, and I am also collecting and editing the conversations as we go along, into a document that will help others with writing their first compiler, which we'll publish as a FAQ along with short and simple demo programs such as the one my friend recently completed to eliminate common subexpressions from simple statements. We're trying to plug a gap between textbooks that have no detail, and advanced compiler books which presume you already have a compiler framework in place; we're discussing things at the level of what flags go into the cells that describe a variable, whether the parser data structures can serve double duty at code generation time, etc - the details that most textbooks don't bother to explain but which make an incredible difference to performance if you get them wrong. If you want to join us, you can find us here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compilers101/ Say hello when you sign up and let the others know who you are, as I'll be the only person there who has heard of you. (Also of Imp - this is a C-based crowd...) I will be posting a summary of our earlier discussions to the new group shortly, but today I'm spoken for - time to put up the Christmas Tree! G To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-332-1040643181-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Dec 23 05:37:41 2002 Received: from n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.83]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBNBbdOu014723 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:37:40 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-332-1040643181-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2002 11:33:01 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Dec 2002 11:33:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 15850 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2002 11:33:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2002 11:33:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (212.38.179.176) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2002 11:32:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 1410 invoked by uid 501); 23 Dec 2002 11:32:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20021223113258.1409.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <200212222239.gBMMdX5M010769@gtoal.com> (message from Graham Toal on Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:39:33 -0600) References: <200212222239.gBMMdX5M010769@gtoal.com> From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 23 Dec 2002 11:32:58 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] calling all compiler writers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 865 > we're discussing things at the level of what > flags go into the cells that describe a variable, whether the parser > data structures can serve double duty at code generation time, etc How much is that oriented towards Algol-like languages? (My experience is primarily with things like Prolog and SML, which is rather a different culture - once you have fleetingly understood continuation-passing transformation, your brain is permanently rewired.) -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-333-1041110828-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 15:32:40 2002 Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBSLWdOu002289 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:32:39 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-333-1041110828-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 21:27:08 -0000 X-Sender: wwwdept@dcs.gla.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 21:27:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 41486 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 21:27:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 21:27:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dundee.dcs.gla.ac.uk) (130.209.242.163) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 21:27:06 -0000 Received: from wwwdept by dundee.dcs.gla.ac.uk with local (Exim 4.04) id 18SOU5-0003c2-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:27:05 +0000 Received: from modem-58-52-60-62.vip.uk.com ( [modem-58-52-60-62.vip.uk.com]) as user wpc@localhost by webmail.dcs.gla.ac.uk with HTTP; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:27:05 +0000 Message-ID: <1041110825.3e0e1729d3e83@webmail.dcs.gla.ac.uk> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com References: <200212222239.gBMMdX5M010769@gtoal.com> In-Reply-To: <200212222239.gBMMdX5M010769@gtoal.com> User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 Sender: "dept. web site,www,,,*," From: wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk X-Originating-IP: 62.60.52.58 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:27:05 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] calling all compiler writers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1036 You could put me on the mailing list. You should realise that although I was a PhD at edinburgh I did my compiler course on my Msc at the Watt, so the techniques that I use are not the same as Hamish taught. I Base myself pretty heavily on the stuff taught by Ron Morrison at St Andrews with whom we collaborated closely, plus Susan Grahams code generation techniques. Quoting Graham Toal : > > > > > Last year a kid on one of the other mailing lists I'm on (dynamic > object
> code translation/emulation) mentioned he was writing his first > compiler,
> and although my own experience up to that point was really just with > DJR's
> Skimp plus kibbitzing over Peter Stephen's, PSR's and Hamish's Imp
> compilers, I did try to offer what help I could.  It turned out I > remembered
> more than I thought I would, and our discussions were very helpful - to
> both of us; In fact our discussions were what convinced me to have a go
> at writing an Imp compiler myself.
>
> Well, the mailing list where we were having these chats folded, so > rather
> than take it to private mail (because a lot of people were enjoying > listening
> to the design work we were doing) we started a new yahoo group just for
> blethers about how to write your first compiler - we called it > "compilers 101"
> (which probably means more if you're an American.  Roughly translates as > "CS1")
> and 16 people from the old list signed up so they could follow the > ongoing
> chats.
>
> The thing is, the student has now bypassed the teacher and I'm running > out
> of advice to offer.  He's now at the stage of implementing CSE's, and > I
> taught him the method Hamish taught me some years ago - converting a > tree
> into a DAG by recognising duplicated triples.  That's about as far as > I
> can go without merely parroting what anyone can read in books, but the > purpose
> of our little mailing list is that people with real experience will
> give help to folks genuinely interested in both learning and doing.
>
> So... I'ld like to invite any/all of the folks here who have written
> compilers, if you are willing to spend a couple of minutes a day, to
> join our mailing list and see if you can pass on your collected wisdom.
>
> As well as the folks mentioned above, I'm thinking that Andy Davis,
> Rainer Thonnes, Chris Whitfield, Paul Cockshott and Ian Young could > also
> all be possible mentors for the new generation.  (If I've missed any > other
> compiler writers from the list it's accidental I assure you!)
>
> This mailing list teaches by the Socratic Method of question and
> answer, and I am also collecting and editing the conversations as we
> go along, into a document that will help others with writing their > first
> compiler, which we'll publish as a FAQ along with short and simple demo
> programs such as the one my friend recently completed to eliminate
> common subexpressions from simple statements.
>
> We're trying to plug a gap between textbooks that have no detail,
> and advanced compiler books which presume you already have a compiler
> framework in place; we're discussing things at the level of what
> flags go into the cells that describe a variable, whether the parser
> data structures can serve double duty at code generation time, etc - > the
> details that most textbooks don't bother to explain but which make
> an incredible difference to performance if you get them wrong.
>
> If you want to join us, you can find us here:
>
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compilers101/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group /compilers101/
>
> Say hello when you sign up and let the others know who you are, as I'll
> be the only person there who has heard of you.  (Also of Imp - this is >
> a C-based crowd...)
>
> I will be posting a summary of our earlier discussions to the new group
> shortly, but today I'm spoken for - time to put up the Christmas Tree!
>
> G
> > > >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
> >
> >
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service. >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-334-1041114548-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 16:34:41 2002 Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.67]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id gBSMYeOu002612 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:34:40 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-334-1041114548-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 22:29:09 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 22:29:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 21323 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 22:29:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 22:29:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 22:29:07 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id gBSMYbhd002607; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:34:37 -0600 Message-Id: <200212282234.gBSMYbhd002607@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:34:37 -0600 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] calling all compiler writers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1040 > You could put me on the mailing list. Signup form on its way. > You should realise that although I was a PhD at edinburgh > I did my compiler course on my Msc at the Watt, so the techniques > that I use are not the same as Hamish taught. I Base myself > pretty heavily on the stuff taught by Ron Morrison at > St Andrews with whom we collaborated closely, plus > Susan Grahams code generation techniques. That's great, the more varied the experience the better. I don't want to re-teach Edinburgh CS1; I do want people who have written compilers who can say "I tried that and it caused a lot of unnecessary work - here's a neat way to do it that makes it easy..." (I already answered Nick Rothwell's mail off-list in case anyone thought I was being rude by leaving it dangling) G To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-335-1041738360-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Jan 4 21:52:45 2003 Received: from n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.80]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h053qi11010339 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:52:44 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-335-1041738360-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2003 03:46:00 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Jan 2003 03:45:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 25930 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2003 03:45:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jan 2003 03:45:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2003 03:45:59 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h053qfpA010336 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:52:41 -0600 Message-Id: <200301050352.h053qfpA010336@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:52:41 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some recollections by pioneers... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1315 Austin Tate brought this URL to my attention recently: http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/events/ccs2002/ It contains presentations by some pioneers of AI and reads like a who's who of Edinburgh :-) It will make a welcome addition to our web site. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-336-1042683190-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 20:13:56 2003 Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h0G2DtHf002102 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:13:55 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-336-1042683190-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2003 02:13:10 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Jan 2003 02:13:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 38348 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2003 02:13:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Jan 2003 02:13:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2003 02:13:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2003 02:13:09 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal " X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:13:09 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] pdp9 imp compiler details Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Chris Whitfield found this yesterday: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp15/CompilerOutput.doc (It's saved as a graphics image in M$Word format - I'll convert it to something portable when I get a chance) Rainer & Hamish might be interested in this. It's dated Jan '71. Chris is off to Grenoble for us this coming weekend, with the DECtapes that John Gray found. Graham PS Is anyone in touch with Brebner? Fred King was asking for his new email address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-337-1042711799-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 16 04:10:52 2003 Received: from n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.104]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h0GAApHf004968 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 04:10:52 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-337-1042711799-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jan 2003 10:10:00 -0000 X-Sender: paul@greenfolder.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Jan 2003 10:09:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 53497 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2003 10:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Jan 2003 10:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp01.hosting.innerhost.com) (207.21.208.50) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2003 10:09:58 -0000 Received: from greenfolder.com ([207.21.208.48]) by smtp01.hosting.innerhost.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 16 Jan 2003 05:09:58 -0500 Received: from PaulPC [62.252.36.132] by greenfolder.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.12) id A4F3460070; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 05:09:55 -0500 To: Message-ID: <005b01c2bd47$af89da50$357ce195@PaulPC> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jan 2003 10:09:58.0092 (UTC) FILETIME=[6C8728C0:01C2BD47] From: "Paul McLellan" X-Yahoo-Profile: paulmcl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:11:58 -0800 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] pdp9 imp compiler details Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO gordon.brebner@xilinx.com -----Original Message----- From: Graham Toal [mailto:gtoal@gtoal.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 6:13 PM To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] pdp9 imp compiler details Chris Whitfield found this yesterday: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp15/CompilerOutput.doc (It's saved as a graphics image in M$Word format - I'll convert it to something portable when I get a chance) Rainer & Hamish might be interested in this. It's dated Jan '71. Chris is off to Grenoble for us this coming weekend, with the DECtapes that John Gray found. Graham PS Is anyone in touch with Brebner? Fred King was asking for his new email address. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-338-1042950907-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Jan 18 22:36:24 2003 Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.72]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h0J4aNHf031959 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:36:24 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-338-1042950907-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Jan 2003 04:35:07 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Jan 2003 04:35:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 13583 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2003 04:35:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Jan 2003 04:35:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (208.246.62.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2003 04:35:05 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h0J4aJA5031954 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:36:19 -0600 Message-Id: <200301190436.h0J4aJA5031954@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:36:19 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Sneak Peek! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 Chris Whitfield is doing great stuff in Grenoble with the help of Hans Pufal, and over here the backup team (i.e. Rainer) is working on decoding the DECtape images. Here's the early results: http://www.gtoal.com/grenoble/ptapes http://www.gtoal.com/grenoble/tape01 http://www.gtoal.com/grenoble/tape22 The latter one by the way contains an almost complete source of a very early version of Hamish's PDP9 O/S! G To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-340-1044585449-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 6 20:37:42 2003 Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.72]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h172bfKd017947 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:37:42 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-340-1044585449-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2003 02:37:29 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 7 Feb 2003 02:37:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 49234 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2003 02:37:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2003 02:37:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2003 02:37:27 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h172bbA6017944 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:37:37 -0600 Message-Id: <200302070237.h172bbA6017944@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:37:37 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] The pdp7 being delivered to Hope Park Sq Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 Courtesy of Alistair Kilgour: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/images/PDP7.jpg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-341-1044649598-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 7 14:27:00 2003 Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h17KQwKd023379 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:26:59 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-341-1044649598-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2003 20:26:38 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 7 Feb 2003 20:26:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 29705 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2003 20:26:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Feb 2003 20:26:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (212.38.179.176) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Feb 2003 20:26:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 18615 invoked by uid 501); 7 Feb 2003 20:26:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20030207202632.18614.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <200302070237.h172bbA6017944@gtoal.com> (message from Graham Toal on Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:37:37 -0600) References: <200302070237.h172bbA6017944@gtoal.com> From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 7 Feb 2003 20:26:32 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] The pdp7 being delivered to Hope Park Sq Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 Well, cranes haven't changed much over the years, even if cars have... How old is this picture? -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-342-1044822141-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 9 14:23:02 2003 Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h19KN1Kd001189 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:23:01 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-342-1044822141-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2003 20:22:21 -0000 X-Sender: alistairk@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 9 Feb 2003 20:22:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 67159 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2003 20:22:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Feb 2003 20:22:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2003 20:22:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.145] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2003 20:22:17 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20030207202632.18614.qmail@cassiel.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "ack7121 " X-Originating-IP: 62.31.109.234 X-Yahoo-Profile: ack7121 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:22:17 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] The pdp7 being delivered to Hope Park Sq Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 Nick, It's dated June 1968. John Oldfield sent me it just before Christmas. He recently came across it in his archives. You could try contacting John direct for more info -- his email address is johno@twcny.rr.com Alistair. --- In edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, Nick Rothwell wrote: > Well, cranes haven't changed much over the years, even if cars have... > > How old is this picture? > > -- > > nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-343-1045950346-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Feb 22 15:48:38 2003 Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h1MLmbKd012461 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:48:38 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-343-1045950346-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Feb 2003 21:45:46 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 22 Feb 2003 21:45:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 44613 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2003 21:45:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Feb 2003 21:45:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Feb 2003 21:45:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Feb 2003 21:45:44 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Announce: yes From: "Graham Toal " X-Originating-IP: 129.113.28.44 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 21:45:41 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Latest news on History project... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 628 I apologise for not keeping everyone up to date on news from the History project - it's been a combination of losing my networking for a time plus a new job and not enough sleep! (Anyone who had been trying to get in touch with me and failed, please resend your messages - Kathy? JGH? Also if anyone is in touch with Gordon Brebner, ask him to email me. My mail to him appears to have gone down a bit-bucket somewhere). So... there has been a lot happening; Chris made great progress in Grenoble and Rainer did a good job of data forensics back home in contact with Chris - we're working on a write-up and will post it shortly; then in the last few days we have made some real big advances with access to old EMAS archives, including the Fortran and Pascal compilers, plus Peter Robertson's IMPI and the original SOAP. (I have a soft spot for IMPI which I don't think has been equalled by either interpreters or symbolic debuggers since. The only part of it which has been reinvented in recent years is the throwaway/JIT compiling). Also a lot of DCAP, and the ARTHUR wiring compiler for the RTM kits (two authors of which are on the list I believe); and I think that next week we should have most of DEIMOS! However the big news is that Professor Michael Fourman of the IT department has invited us to join in the celebration of the AI department which is being organised for August (I suspect as an adjunct to the Festival?), and I plan to work with Alan Bundy to see what we can do to help. I'm also hoping (although it may be premature to suggest this as it hasn't been discussed yet) that if a large scale scanning operation is being conducted for the newly restored AI Library, perhaps we can hang on its coattails and have some of the early AI & CS papers we have scanned by them too (and in particular Donald Michie's historical papers on the creation of the department) Whether we get help or not, I intend to start calling on all of you folks who have told us in the past that you have various listings and documents on paper, and I will start scanning them myself even if we don't manage to find manpower elsewhere. We actually have a very impressive collection spread out across a couple of dozen people; Also I recently found the world's first AI class notes - TO "ARTIFICIAL :INTELLIGENCE - 1975. I'm currently scanning it and when it's safely online I'll mail the paper copy to the AI Library if they don't have one. We've also contacted Fred King who sent JGH a Vax tape with his stuff on it, and we're eagerly awaiting to see what he had. Chris Whitfield turned up another tape and there may be a significant program on it too (although most of the files were ones we'd got from him earlier off another tape) - that being the OS32MT emulator for Mouses which ran faster than native OS32. (There was a similar trick pulled on EMAS which I'm trying to track down, where the O/S calls were intercepted at the SVC layer so that manufacturer's binaries could be run - both these programs predate the recent reinvention of the same thing on Intel hardware and in the videogame emulation world) So... in light of having found a significant amount of software, and the possibility of having a wider audience than we might have hoped for by virtue of the planned event in August, I think it is time we lit the blue touchpaper on this project and started seriously putting our website/online-exhibit together. Please post here with suggestions on how to start and with offers of help, especially from people who write and edit well, and web site designers. I also hope we can get a couple of interactive exhibits going by then - most likely Hamish's PDP9/15 O/S and Peter & Chris's Mouses on the Perkin Elmer - both under emulation. If at all possible I want to host these inside web pages on our site. I already have the PDP15 emulator running (with another O/S) so it shouldn't be a mammoth task to compile the sources we retreived in Grenoble and get Hamish's O/S running under it. (An early version admittedly, with some historically-accurate bugs ;-) ) Finally... I have an idea about arranging some sort of seminar or presentation session and inviting the scattered Old Hands back for a one-off Grand Reunion. This would be under academic auspices and justifiable travel for those of us still in academia, rather than just a party get-together as we did last August. This isn't something I can do, so if anyone in the University thinks its a good idea, step forward. (Actually is five months enough advance notice for an international conference?) So, let's get the ball rolling... Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-344-1045997814-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Feb 23 04:59:51 2003 Received: from n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.107]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h1NAxoKd016781 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 04:59:51 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-344-1045997814-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Feb 2003 10:56:54 -0000 X-Sender: a.tate@ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 23 Feb 2003 10:56:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 84681 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2003 10:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2003 10:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ai.uwf.edu) (65.212.118.11) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 2003 10:56:52 -0000 Received: from [80.195.41.84] (account bat HELO arran.inf.ed.ac.uk) by ai.uwf.edu (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0) with ESMTP-TLS id 550189 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 04:56:51 -0600 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030223104127.03a3bd50@mail.inf.ed.ac.uk:993> X-Sender: bat@mail.inf.ed.ac.uk:993 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: From: Austin Tate MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:55:15 +0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Early British AI Seminar at British Museum Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 646 Graham Toal wrote: >I'm also hoping (although it may be >premature to suggest this as it hasn't been discussed yet) that if >a large scale scanning operation is being conducted for the newly >restored AI Library, perhaps we can hang on its coattails and have >some of the early AI & CS papers we have scanned by them too (and >in particular Donald Michie's historical papers on the creation of >the department) That sounds like a very good idea, and given the relevance of this material, I would hope the library project might be able to cover this. Contact Olga Franks or Alan Bundy. >... I recently found the world's first AI class notes - >TO "ARTIFICIAL :INTELLIGENCE - 1975. I'm currently scanning it >and when it's safely online I'll mail the paper copy to the >AI Library if they don't have one. on a related note, the Computer Conservation Society organised a day on early British AI at the Science Museum last October - I was one of the speakers. Donald Michie unfortunately could not travel to the event, but gave his talk by video. Jim Doran had some nice material from the Round table days with minutes of some of the decisions taken around the time that the departments were being formed. A transcript of Donald's talk and the PowerPoint slides for other speakers talks including a lot of good early Edinburgh related material that people had scanned to illustrate their talk - is accessible via this link... feel free to including it as a link from the web site. http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/events/ccs2002/ Austin To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-345-1047272051-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 9 22:59:39 2003 Received: from n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.76]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h2A4xcI2010754 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:59:38 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-345-1047272051-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2003 04:54:11 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_1); 10 Mar 2003 04:53:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 84311 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2003 04:53:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Mar 2003 04:53:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 2003 04:53:57 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h2A4xMHG010750; Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:59:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200303100459.h2A4xMHG010750@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:59:22 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] found some more papers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 162 I found a packing case which I had thought I had lost when I moved to the US 7 years ago; it contained all my CS lecture notes from 1st to 4th year, plus several listings which I had been using as scrap paper. Needless to say the code on the front was much more interesting than the scrawls on the back! Among other things I've found a user's guide for the PDP15, for HAL70, for the Interdata 74 system code, and the source of Hamish's 4/75 Emas Imp syntax checker (1977). I was also amazed to find a compiler I'd written myself - I think possibly in 2nd year? - for the PDP15 which was a class exercise. Until I read it through several times to remind myself of it, I didn't even remember writing it! I thought the first compiler I'd written was the Skimp one for the 6809 in 3rd year. (Or was that a 4th yr project?) By the way I got Skimp6809 running again on Friday using Peter Stephen's Imp80 compiler under Windows. I plan to use it to write some video games for an old vector graphics games console I have called a Vectrex. I also found 2/3rds of the EMAS command line interpreter that I wrote when I was a student to replace the system CLI. It added features like interprocess messages - they'd pop up as soon as you finished executing a command or hit return to a command prompt, or would be displayed next time you logged in if you weren't on at the time - I wrote it in 1976. Must be one of the earliest email systems! - it was a real hack, which worked by writing to a single common shared file. I think originally I used some spare space at the end of MANAGR.SUGGEST! - though by the time of the version in the listing I have, we had some more legitimate files to use with shared write access. It also had macro expansion and was a lot more efficient than the built-in EMAS system CLI :-) After all these years I can probably safely admit that I wrote it in order to break out of the restricted subsystem that came with the accounts we were given by the maths department to run SIMPLEX analyses. Some of these listings are a bit faded and some of them have very thick ink showing through from behind, so I'm not holding out a lot of hope for OCR, but I do plan to scan them over the next couple of months. There are two photos in the 1977 guide to the department for prospective students (the year I switched to CS from Chemistry) which I'll scan tomorrow for you. One of them has Kathy and Paul next to an Interdata. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-346-1047298351-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 06:18:02 2003 Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h2ACI1I2012077 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:18:02 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-346-1047298351-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2003 12:12:32 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_1); 10 Mar 2003 12:12:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 9098 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2003 12:12:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Mar 2003 12:12:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (212.38.179.176) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 2003 12:12:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 13370 invoked by uid 501); 10 Mar 2003 12:12:29 -0000 Message-ID: <20030310121229.13369.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <200303100459.h2A4xMHG010750@gtoal.com> (message from Graham Toal on Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:59:22 -0600) References: <200303100459.h2A4xMHG010750@gtoal.com> From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 10 Mar 2003 12:12:29 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] found some more papers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 > Among other things I've > found a user's guide for the PDP15, for HAL70, Are the old orange CS reports still notionally in print or available? I have a pile of them in the garage, and I know I have one of the HAL ones. (And also, as I recall, one for EDWIN: Edinburgh Drawing programs Which Interact Nicely - with one of the "Laura" graphic designs on the front, carrying the text "Edwin World Domination"). -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-347-1047301739-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 07:14:31 2003 Received: from n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.64]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h2ADEUI2012365 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:14:30 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-347-1047301739-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2003 13:09:00 -0000 X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_1); 10 Mar 2003 13:08:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 35095 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2003 13:08:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Mar 2003 13:08:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 2003 13:08:58 -0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([80.195.6.133]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:08:57 +0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <200303100459.h2A4xMHG010750@gtoal.com> <20030310121229.13369.qmail@cassiel.com> In-Reply-To: <20030310121229.13369.qmail@cassiel.com> Message-Id: <200303101311.30907.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> From: Rainer Thonnes MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:11:30 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] found some more papers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 > (And also, as I recall, one for EDWIN: Edinburgh Drawing > programs Which Interact Nicely - with one of the "Laura" graphic > designs on the front, carrying the text "Edwin World Domination"). That reminds me. Does anyone know who "MacPherson" was? There existed a set of drawing routines known as the MacPherson Package, which I gather was basically the old wine which JGH decanted into new bottles badged "EDWIN". To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-348-1047308087-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 09:00:20 2003 Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.67]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h2AF0II2012752 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:00:19 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-348-1047308087-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2003 14:54:47 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_1); 10 Mar 2003 14:54:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 84846 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2003 14:54:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Mar 2003 14:54:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 2003 14:54:46 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h2AF0Eqw012747; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:00:14 -0600 Message-Id: <200303101500.h2AF0Eqw012747@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:00:14 -0600 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] found some more papers Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 > > Among other things I've > > found a user's guide for the PDP15, for HAL70, > > Are the old orange CS reports still notionally in print or available? > I have a pile of them in the garage, and I know I have one of the HAL > ones. (And also, as I recall, one for EDWIN: Edinburgh Drawing > programs Which Interact Nicely - with one of the "Laura" graphic > designs on the front, carrying the text "Edwin World Domination"). Nope, I'm afraid almost all the departmental reports are gone from Edinburgh. I went to both KB and George Square libraries when I visted Edinburgh last August trying to track down any I could find, and the vast majority had been thrown out. Please keep all you have; in fact if you ever have some spare time, it would be much appreciated if you could scan them; if that's too much trouble, could you mail them to me and I'll scan them. (If you want to do some scanning mail me to discuss what docs to scan first; some things like Edwin we have or can get source of) I have notes on what documents everyone has already mentioned to me and I am currently working on sorting those into order so we can scan one copy of each, as it is now time to start a bulk scanning operation. I waited a couple of years to see what would turn up in machine readable form first - I think we've got all we're getting that way now. Time to start looking at the paper. [Talking of which, I still haven't managed to get in touch with Brebner who has some important source listings on paper; if anyone is in touch with him please ask him to contact me] Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-349-1047955220-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 17 20:40:45 2003 Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h2I2eieN022382 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:40:45 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-349-1047955220-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2003 02:40:20 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_1); 18 Mar 2003 02:40:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 15015 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2003 02:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Mar 2003 02:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 2003 02:40:18 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h2I2efFI022379 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:40:41 -0600 Message-Id: <200303180240.h2I2efFI022379@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:40:41 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Pop2 article Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 526 I found this on the net today: http://www.poplog.org/talk/comp.lang.pop/1992/msg00099.html G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-350-1048459384-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Mar 23 16:43:07 2003 Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.79]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h2NMh6iV002234 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2003 16:43:07 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-350-1048459384-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Mar 2003 22:43:04 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 23 Mar 2003 22:43:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 86489 invoked from network); 23 Mar 2003 22:43:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Mar 2003 22:43:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Mar 2003 22:43:02 -0000 Received: from jgh2 ([62.31.70.237]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:43:02 +0000 Message-ID: <001801c2f0c5$9e56afe0$ed461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <200303100459.h2A4xMHG010750@gtoal.com> <20030310121229.13369.qmail@cassiel.com> <200303101311.30907.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:51:47 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] EDWIN Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 802 > > (And also, as I recall, one for EDWIN: Edinburgh Drawing > > programs Which Interact Nicely - with one of the "Laura" graphic > > designs on the front, carrying the text "Edwin World Domination"). > > That reminds me. Does anyone know who "MacPherson" was? > There existed a set of drawing routines known as the MacPherson > Package, which I gather was basically the old wine which JGH > decanted into new bottles badged "EDWIN". I can't shed any light on who MacPherson was, but thought that I should defend myself against Rainer's comment. I would argue that it was "distilled" not "decanted", the main difference being that the MacPherson package was a small set of routines which implemented clipping and output to Tektronix storage tubes, on the PDP15. EDWIN extended this with the concepts of device independence and machine independence, with a larger set of routines. For everyone's info, GT now has a copy of the EDWIN sources dating from the time when I left Lattice Logic in 1989. This has a large range of device drivers, including Ian Young's Tektronics plotter driver, Neil Bergman's HP Laser printer driver, as well as the large number which I wrote, including many weird and wonderful early Micro and desk top systems, such as the Acorn co-processor, Opus, Definicon, Apollo, MG-1, Sun, X-Windows, and other names which now escape me! Note that I still have working VMS and Sun versions of Edwin on my systems today, which after 25 years is not bad for some degree of world domination. It is still used by French customers of ours too. Our US site had it until last year, when they got rid of their VMS systems. best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-351-1048499985-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 03:59:52 2003 Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h2O9xpiV006108 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:59:52 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-351-1048499985-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Mar 2003 09:59:45 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 24 Mar 2003 09:59:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 95172 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2003 09:59:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Mar 2003 09:59:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (212.38.179.176) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 2003 09:59:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 7891 invoked by uid 501); 24 Mar 2003 09:59:41 -0000 Message-ID: <20030324095941.7890.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <001801c2f0c5$9e56afe0$ed461f3e@jgh2> References: <200303100459.h2A4xMHG010750@gtoal.com> <20030310121229.13369.qmail@cassiel.com> <200303101311.30907.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> <001801c2f0c5$9e56afe0$ed461f3e@jgh2> From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 24 Mar 2003 09:59:41 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] EDWIN Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 822 > [...] as well as the > large number which I wrote, including many weird and wonderful > early Micro and desk top systems, such as the Acorn co-processor, > Opus, Definicon, Apollo, MG-1, Sun, X-Windows, and other names which now > escape me! Am I right in thinking that there was even an ASCII driver? As I recall, the rendering resolution was a little low... -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-352-1048533242-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 13:15:52 2003 Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.79]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h2OJEMiV008923 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:14:54 -0600 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-352-1048533242-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Mar 2003 19:14:12 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 24 Mar 2003 19:14:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 85854 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2003 19:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Mar 2003 19:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 2003 19:13:53 -0000 Received: from jgh2 ([62.31.70.237]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:13:52 +0000 Message-ID: <001b01c2f171$8d6fad60$ed461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <200303100459.h2A4xMHG010750@gtoal.com> <20030310121229.13369.qmail@cassiel.com> <200303101311.30907.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> <001801c2f0c5$9e56afe0$ed461f3e@jgh2> <20030324095941.7890.qmail@cassiel.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:22:32 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] EDWIN Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 837 > > [...] as well as the > > large number which I wrote, including many weird and wonderful > > early Micro and desk top systems, such as the Acorn co-processor, > > Opus, Definicon, Apollo, MG-1, Sun, X-Windows, and other names which now > > escape me! > > Am I right in thinking that there was even an ASCII driver? As I > recall, the rendering resolution was a little low... Yes, it all started with the VT100, which using the graphics line segment characters could produce amazingly good results on a 132x24 reslolution. Then people, wanted more, so this was extended to drawing using '*' chars on a 80x24 resolution. These certainly made graphics available to a mass-market, in a way which was cost effective, and I think useful (at least to a small extent). best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-353-1049683470-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 21:46:55 2003 Received: from n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.99]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h372ksJW028851 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:46:55 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-353-1049683470-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2003 02:44:30 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 7 Apr 2003 02:44:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 83828 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2003 02:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2003 02:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 2003 02:44:28 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h372kodA028848 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:46:50 -0500 Message-Id: <200304070246.h372kodA028848@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:46:50 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] learning version of Ken's draft4 ... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO http://www.gtoal.com/draft4/ Thanks, Ken. I received this from John Maddock last week but was too preoccupied with work to remember to post it. (Been a busy few weeks over here) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-354-1049966036-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 04:16:54 2003 Received: from n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.80]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h3A9GrJW026201 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 04:16:54 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-354-1049966036-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2003 09:13:56 -0000 X-Sender: andy@nb-info.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 10 Apr 2003 09:13:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 50934 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 09:13:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2003 09:13:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO widow.nb-info.co.uk) (193.132.202.33) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 09:13:54 -0000 Received: from vaioandy (NBLan-36 [193.132.202.36]) by widow.nb-info.co.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/) with SMTP id KAA09792 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:13:52 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <062701c2ff41$76d31fa0$24ca84c1@nbinfo.co.uk> To: References: <1049734490.482.82465.m12@yahoogroups.com> Organization: NB Information Limited X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Andy Davis" X-Yahoo-Profile: eucshistory MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:13:34 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] IMP-77 compiler release 1.02 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 I've been continuing my progress on IMP compiler work in spare moments, and have just released a new version. Updates are: * UNIX version compatible with Gnu/ELF tools released. * MS-DOS version now up to date with 32 bit versions. * Larger array dimensions now supported (prompted by the DRAFT program!). * %include files working. There have also been a couple of minor bugfixes in the library. As before, this is available at http://imp.nb-info.co.uk/ Regards, Andy Davis ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-355-1050020880-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 19:31:21 2003 Received: from n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.68]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h3B0VKJW031301 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:31:21 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-355-1050020880-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2003 00:28:01 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 11 Apr 2003 00:27:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 76101 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2003 00:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2003 00:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2003 00:27:59 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h3B0UvXr031297 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:30:57 -0500 Message-Id: <200304110030.h3B0UvXr031297@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 19:30:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] IMP-77 compiler release 1.02 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 Woo Hoo! Thanks, Andy, I've really been looking forward to this. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-356-1054444480-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 00:17:11 2003 Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h515H9pq006272 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 00:17:10 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-356-1054444480-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2003 05:14:41 -0000 X-Sender: m.wigan@napier.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61173 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2003 05:14:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2003 05:14:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2003 05:14:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2003 05:14:39 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "mwigan" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.96.69 X-Yahoo-Profile: mwigan MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 05:14:38 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Responding to the requst to post items/ucsd pascal Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO In the 1980's I ran pascal microengiones and sages with UCSd pascal and was USUS software libraraian for Australia. At that time I dsciverd that Edinburgh had set up a multiuser VAX based UCSd system fro studnets... I think the perosn in chagre was Austin tate.... and i think he is still with Ed Univ. marc Wigan napier ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-357-1054466111-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 06:17:42 2003 Received: from n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.75]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h51BHfpq008241 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 06:17:42 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-357-1054466111-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2003 11:15:11 -0000 X-Sender: a.tate@ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70753 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2003 11:15:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2003 11:15:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ai.uwf.edu) (65.212.118.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2003 11:15:09 -0000 Received: from [80.195.73.219] (account bat HELO arran.inf.ed.ac.uk) by ai.uwf.edu (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1b6) with ESMTP-TLS id 1204570; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 06:16:46 -0500 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030601120643.043d4bc8@mail.inf.ed.ac.uk:993> X-Sender: bat@mail.inf.ed.ac.uk:993 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: "mwigan" In-Reply-To: From: Austin Tate MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 12:13:30 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Responding to the requst to post items/ucsd pascal Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO At 05:14 AM 01/06/2003 +0000, mwigan wrote: >In the 1980's I ran pascal microengiones and sages with UCSd pascal and >was USUS >software libraraian for Australia. At that time I dsciverd that Edinburgh >had set up a >multiuser VAX based UCSd system fro studnets... I think the perosn in >chagre was >Austin tate.... and i think he is still with Ed Univ. We used the UCSD p-System as the basis for early work on microcomputers at the UoE - ahead of the advent of the IBM PC and MS-DOS it should be noted. At the time we did this, the Cromemco with its own proprietary DOS was really the only thing in use at the University amongst a few other trial early systems. WE used Apple II systems and later various other UCSD p-System bits of hardware. Eventually we had a large user base and gave central support to them. A lot came out of that work including an Office support package - "OffLoad" with its office aids and a decent p-System editor. We even install a shared filestore for the University micro users accessible via file transfer protocols from micros. An early e-Mail system also worked over this - and even reached people not "on the net" (by printing out the messages so you could send them via internal mail!! The USUS used to be fun. I guess we did this in the period 1979-1982. I still have a few of the OffLoad brochures and some of the ERCC help cards we produced for using the UCSD p-System. Austin -- Prof. Austin Tate, Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute, Informatics, University of Edinburgh, Appleton Tower, Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9LE, UK Tel: +44 131 650 2732 Fax: +44 131 650 6513 E-mail: a.tate@ed.ac.uk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-358-1054571407-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 11:32:55 2003 Received: from n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.106]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h52GWspq017726 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:32:55 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-358-1054571407-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jun 2003 16:30:08 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56327 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2003 16:30:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2003 16:30:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2003 16:30:05 -0000 Received: from cassiel.demon.co.uk ([158.152.9.55] helo=cassiel.com) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19MsCC-0007Md-0X for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:30:04 +0100 Received: (qmail 17908 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2003 16:30:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (10.0.0.4) by 10.0.0.1 with SMTP; 2 Jun 2003 16:30:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 21494 invoked by uid 501); 2 Jun 2003 16:26:41 -0000 Message-ID: <20030602162641.21493.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <5.2.0.9.2.20030601120643.043d4bc8@mail.inf.ed.ac.uk:993> (message from Austin Tate on Sun, 01 Jun 2003 12:13:30 +0100) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030601120643.043d4bc8@mail.inf.ed.ac.uk:993> From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 2 Jun 2003 16:26:41 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Responding to the requst to post items/ucsd pascal Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > We used the UCSD p-System as the basis for early work on microcomputers at > the UoE - ahead of the advent of the IBM PC and MS-DOS it should be > noted. And, of course, there was the Terak 8510A which turned up in the CS department during the summer of, what, 1980? It was a p-System running on top of an LSI-11, with 56K of RAM (+ 8K of display storage) and a single 8" floppy drive (the capacity of which I've forgotten: 200K or so?). The display had hardware scrolling, which was really sweet, and loadable software fonts (including Cyrillic) in a separate overlaid display buffer, which was even sweeter, and you could keep an eye on the RAM usage by watching the screen - the stack and heap would approach each other as bit-patterns from the top and the bottom. I took the Terak home some time around 1985, where it lived in semi-retirement for some time (running an editor program for Yamaha digital synthesisers that I wrote in UCSD Pascal). It died peacefully in its sleep from a broken power supply sometime around 1996. -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-359-1054673754-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 15:58:55 2003 Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.91]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h53Kwrpq028647 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:58:54 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-359-1054673754-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jun 2003 20:55:59 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2003 20:55:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jun 2003 20:55:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 2003 20:55:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.118] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jun 2003 20:55:50 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 129.113.28.44 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:55:50 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] VMS files in the archive Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO After a break of a mere 20+ years I'm now using VMS again, and the first thing I did (after compiling my portable command-line version of Ecce in C) was try the VMS binaries that had been lodged in our archives. In case anyone else ever wants to try these, here are the runes to repair them so that the have the correct record formats: SET FILE/ATTRIBUTES=(LRL=32256,RAT=NONE,RFM=FIX) vecce_export.save SET FILE/ATTRIBUTES=(LRL=32256,RAT=NONE,RFM=FIX) IMP-VAX-VMS-10-2.BCK and these are the commands to see that the contents are OK: backup/list vecce_export.save/save backup/list IMP-VAX-VMS-10-2.BCK/save I now have - for the first time since about 1981 - VECCE running! And for my next trick, I'm looking forward to getting Vax Imp running! (you have to translate the Vax binaries to Alpha binaries with a command called VEST) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-360-1055450849-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 15:53:27 2003 Received: from n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.82]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h5CKrDpq014260 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:53:26 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-360-1055450849-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jun 2003 20:47:30 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11633 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2003 20:47:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jun 2003 20:47:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out8.blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.213.11) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jun 2003 20:47:26 -0000 Received: from jgh2 ([62.31.70.34]) by smtp-out8.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:46:20 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c33123$b5f2a3e0$22461f3e@jgh2> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2003 20:46:20.0039 (UTC) FILETIME=[AD772970:01C33123] From: "J Gordon Hughes" X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:46:34 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] VMS files in the archive Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > you have to translate the Vax binaries to Alpha binaries with a command called VEST In case anyone is tempted to rush off to use the VMS binaries, it is worth noting the following about VEST and Imp programs. Simple Imp programs can be run with the default VEST options and all is well. Complex Imp programs fail with the default VEST settings, my guess is that this is something to do with event trapping, but I have not been successful to decide what makes a program fail or not. If you want your Imp programs to run on Alpha VMS, you need to use the form VEST/NOFEEDBACK/PRESERVE=ALL This works really well, but the down side is that the resulting .EXE files are now much larger. The Preserve=all option gives the best possible VAX implementation on the Alpha, which I am sure is over-kill, but I do not know enough about the VMS Compiler implemenation to decide what sub-options of the PRESERVE qualifier are appropriate. If anyone with knowledge of the 3L Imp Compiler for VMS is keen, I can lend then a copy of the VEST documentation to see what options are provided. best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-361-1058401606-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 19:40:09 2003 Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h6H0e8l9009334 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:40:09 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-361-1058401606-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2003 00:26:46 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40762 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2003 00:26:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Jul 2003 00:26:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jul 2003 00:26:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2003 00:26:43 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 66.68.250.127 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:26:42 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Lots of new finds Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 a6e47fc8201098429b860c543953aea4 Status: RO Just when I thought we were done finding software and should move on to website development, along comes Brian Gilmore with permission to access his EMAS archives, which I'm downloading right now - lots of good finds! - mainly Deimos, X25 drivers, and the lost source of Peter Robertson's PDP11 Imp compiler! I'm compiling a list at the moment of who has what on paper, and I'ld like to call in some of those papers for scanning soon... Chris Whitfield is working on the PDP8 paper tapes and we've been given the offer of an optical paper tape reader which should be able to safely read the originals which are stored at the Museum. - Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-362-1059516410-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 17:07:17 2003 Received: from n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.76]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h6TM7Gg3011652 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:07:16 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-362-1059516410-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2003 22:06:50 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@groups1.vip.scd.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 19018 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2003 22:06:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Jul 2003 22:06:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 2003 22:06:49 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h6TM3kIb011569; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:03:46 -0500 Message-Id: <200307292203.h6TM3kIb011569@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:03:46 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Welcome to the group! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 5ac9751aa71e95686a46476ac2f69aae Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 I see two new faces arrived today - Con Bradley and Boyd Moffat, both of whom work at SuperH (CPU licensing company - Their "SH4" is in the Dreamcast video game console). I recognise Con's name from Edinburgh CS but I don't recognise Boyd - but with a name like Moffat I suspect you may be part of an Edinburgh mafia over at SuperH! Welcome to the growing club of Edinburgh ex-pats in this group. So tell us what you've been up to since you left Edinburgh, Con, and did you keep any historical documents or source code that we can add to the project? To bring everyone up to date; expect some news soon about the PDP8 and Atlas Autocode compiler paper tapes. We've been offered an optical tape reader on loan and once the electrical interfacing is sorted out with Ian Young's help we should be able to take it to the museum and load up our old PDP8 tapes. Chris Whitfield is managing this subproject for us. Also I have been working on extracting and cataloguing the huge amount of data we got from Brian Gilmore; I hope to post some of it this coming weekend. (Been somewhat tied up with my day job for the last few weeks but the biggest deadline is over on Friday and I'll be celebrating by relaxing while some history project work in the back garden with my portable on my knee and a beer by my side. The joys of wireless networking!) I installed a DVD writer yesterday and another 120Gb of hard disk, so our archive which was becoming full is now meagre again (meaning don't be shy of scanning your documents, folks!). I will supply DVDs of the archive to anyone who wants one. I don't know if Gordon Brebner is subscribed to this list still, but if you are - *** answer your phone, guy! *** I've been trying to get in touch with you for ages, to arrange for scans of some of the sources you have on paper as we're now 99.999% sure those are the only remaining copies of some of the systems. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-363-1059556503-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 04:15:32 2003 Received: from n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.102]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h6U9FTg3024011 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 04:15:30 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-363-1059556503-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.159] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2003 09:15:03 -0000 X-Sender: con.bradley@superh.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70191 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2003 09:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Jul 2003 09:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ns2.uk.superh.com) (193.128.105.170) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2003 09:15:00 -0000 Received: from sh-uk-ex01.uk.w2k.superh.com (sh-uk-ex01 [192.168.16.17]) by ns2.uk.superh.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6U99JK10959 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:09:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from hibernia ([192.168.17.60]) by sh-uk-ex01.uk.w2k.superh.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:15:37 +0100 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com References: <200307292203.h6TM3kIb011569@gtoal.com> Organization: SuperH, Inc Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200307292203.h6TM3kIb011569@gtoal.com> User-Agent: Opera7.11/Win32 M2 build 2887 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2003 09:15:37.0061 (UTC) FILETIME=[235A9150:01C3567B] From: Con Bradley X-Yahoo-Profile: con_bradley MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:15:34 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Welcome to the group! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 7bc58d308aec3b857e91d794182e1b8c Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 Hi, Clearly you can't just quietly lurk on this mailing list :-) I have a load of stuff in my garage but I suspect it's all paper. I'll have a look. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned David Rees's OS coursework project where you had to build an OS on an Interdata machine. That was a tough assignment, made more difficult by Rainer I think wanting to make use of every single instruction on the machine. Great machines those interdata machines, lots of lights to flash providing a way of using those 1's complement instructions. I never did find the bug in my version of the OS which luckily I did manage to hide from David Rees. There was also the neverending CAD project "Gaelic" I think it was called as well as the "Lecturers' song" sung to the tune of the Lumberjacks' song which contained the immortal line "I have 4 lovely children called I,J,K and L", Con. On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:03:46 -0500, Graham Toal wrote: > I see two new faces arrived today - Con Bradley and Boyd Moffat, both of > whom work at SuperH (CPU licensing company - Their "SH4" is in the > Dreamcast > video game console). I recognise Con's name from Edinburgh CS but I don't > recognise Boyd - but with a name like Moffat I suspect you may be part of > an Edinburgh mafia over at SuperH! Welcome to the growing club of > Edinburgh > ex-pats in this group. > > So tell us what you've been up to since you left Edinburgh, Con, and did > you > keep any historical documents or source code that we can add to the > project? > > To bring everyone up to date; expect some news soon about the PDP8 > and Atlas Autocode compiler paper tapes. We've been offered an optical > tape reader on loan and once the electrical interfacing is sorted out > with Ian Young's help we should be able to take it to the museum and > load up our old PDP8 tapes. Chris Whitfield is managing this subproject > for us. Also I have been working on extracting and cataloguing the huge > amount of data we got from Brian Gilmore; I hope to post some of it this > coming weekend. (Been somewhat tied up with my day job for the last few > weeks but the biggest deadline is over on Friday and I'll be celebrating > by relaxing while some history project work in the back garden with my > portable on my knee and a beer by my side. The joys of wireless > networking!) > > I installed a DVD writer yesterday and another 120Gb of hard disk, so our > archive which was becoming full is now meagre again (meaning don't be shy > of scanning your documents, folks!). I will supply DVDs of the archive > to anyone who wants one. > > I don't know if Gordon Brebner is subscribed to this list still, but if > you are - *** answer your phone, guy! *** I've been trying to get in > touch > with you for ages, to arrange for scans of some of the sources you have > on paper as we're now 99.999% sure those are the only remaining copies of > some of the systems. > > Graham > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-364-1059558671-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 04:51:54 2003 Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h6U9pog3024595 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 04:51:53 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-364-1059558671-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Jul 2003 09:51:12 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9072 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2003 09:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Jul 2003 09:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (158.152.9.55) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2003 09:51:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 32414 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2003 09:51:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (10.0.0.4) by 10.0.0.1 with SMTP; 30 Jul 2003 09:51:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 10932 invoked by uid 501); 30 Jul 2003 09:44:43 -0000 Message-ID: <20030730094443.10931.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: (message from Con Bradley on Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:15:34 +0100) References: <200307292203.h6TM3kIb011569@gtoal.com> From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 30 Jul 2003 09:44:43 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Welcome to the group! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 0e09e1c2d54ccfeba6cfcaad59b0e3ae Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 > I'm surprised nobody has mentioned David Rees's OS coursework project > where you had to build an OS on an Interdata machine. It's still burned into the appropriate brain cells. Flashing the lights was fun but slowed the machines down, and we had a continual "dialogue" with the support folks (Peter Lindsay and/or John Dow et. al.?) because the bulbs kept blowing. (Except, as I recall, one of the Interdatas was a newer model with - gosh - LED's.) So can anyone remember the 50 sequence? -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-365-1059869519-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 19:13:02 2003 Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h730D1V2019793 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:13:02 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-365-1059869519-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.160] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2003 00:11:59 -0000 X-Sender: c.whitfield@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70461 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2003 00:11:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2003 00:11:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.213.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2003 00:11:56 -0000 Received: from octavia.blueyonder.co.uk ([80.195.45.90]) by smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 3 Aug 2003 01:05:21 +0100 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030803005831.0245bf40@pop3.attglobal.net> X-Sender: cw011a5500@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1059568184.536.41078.m12@yahoogroups.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2003 00:05:21.0850 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE6829A0:01C35952] X-eGroups-From: Chris Whitfield From: Chris Whitfield X-Yahoo-Profile: kit_whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 01:02:46 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Tape winder Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 7800b957ac8baf70e09f081e84cebf01 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 211 Dear All, Ian Young and I have now got a working fast (700cps) paper tape reader interfaced to a PC and are in a position to start reading the various paper tapes with all sorts of goodies on them. One little snag .... rewinding the things. Would anyone have any bright ideas where a tape winder (even a broken one) might be acquired before we start on making one from first principles. All offers gratefully received. Chris Whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-366-1059928381-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 11:34:12 2003 Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.87]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h73GYBV2004054 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:34:12 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-366-1059928381-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2003 16:33:02 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18601 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2003 16:33:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2003 16:33:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2003 16:33:00 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h73GY65o004046; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:34:06 -0500 Message-Id: <200308031634.h73GY65o004046@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:34:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Tape winder Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 5131013a1e321a1a8cc55a413783d372 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 > Ian Young and I have now got a working fast (700cps) paper tape reader > interfaced to a PC You guys are heroes! > and are in a position to start reading the various paper tapes with all > sorts of goodies > on them. Have you tested it on your Mouses ECCE tape? It'll be interesting to see if our manual corrections to the faulty copy were accurate. > One little snag .... rewinding the things. Would anyone have any bright > ideas where a > tape winder (even a broken one) might be acquired before we start on making on e > from first principles. > All offers gratefully received. Chris, wasn't there a manual winder in the box with the pdp8 tapes at the museum? Might be a bit rusty though... and I doubt any manual winder will work with the fanfold tapes... (or will the reader itself handle those?) If you know where there's an image of this kind of tape reader on the net I'd love to see what you're working on... I'll ask on the classiccmp list for a winder... and I'll start hacking a filter for the Atlas Autocode encodings. It'll probably be easier to get to them soon than it will the museum tapes. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-367-1059944486-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 16:02:38 2003 Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.72]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h73L2bV2008541 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:02:38 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-367-1059944486-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2003 21:01:26 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19216 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2003 21:01:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2003 21:01:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2003 21:01:24 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h73L2X9g008533; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:02:33 -0500 Message-Id: <200308032102.h73L2X9g008533@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:02:33 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] [off topic] C Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 4d34a9df325a34ee057f7e376cf2c04e Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 Some time ago I remember hearing that Hamish had an ambition to write an Imp compiler which was fast enough that all the operating system utilities could be held in source form, and compiled on the fly when you typed a command. I mentioned in an earlier post that it was rather ironic that his early PDP15 compiler was now so fast running on modern PC's that he'd reached his goal just by sitting back for 20 years waiting for the hardware to catch up (although in the intervening years Hamish had indeed speeded up his compilers on contemporary hardware to get to the sort of speeds he wanted to reach). I mention this because I came across a compiler a few weeks ago which reminded me strongly of Hamish's suggestion; this "Tiny C" compiler - http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/tcc/ - is a very small and fast C compiler, and if you add a 1-line unix-style scripting command to the start of your C program ( #!/usr/local/bin/tcc -run ) it actually compiles the file into ram and runs immediately... and I have been converting some of the unix utilities I use from binaries back to the original sources, and damned if it doesn't actually work. Just what Hamish had envisioned all those years ago. This programs compiles 134,000 lines per second on a 500MHz pentium. Just about any average utility compiles in 'carriage return' time... ie so fast you don't notice it. One more year of chip development and I guess that would be something like a million lines a second. Bigger than any program you can imagine writing (unless you're Microsoft). Damn. The 'compile into ram then execute immediately' option is very much like the old student compilers for card-based systems like the IBM360 (and I think EMAS may have have a compiler like this at one point too?) I like this guy Bellard's work. It really struck a chord. His documentation about it is here: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/tcc/tcc-doc.html Graham PS Tiny C refers to the size of the compiler; it's not a subset of C. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-368-1059944945-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 16:10:20 2003 Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h73LAIV2008723 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:10:19 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-368-1059944945-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.158] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2003 21:09:07 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34286 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2003 21:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2003 21:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.aaisp.net.uk) (217.169.20.17) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2003 21:09:05 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk ([217.169.31.211]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jQ6A-0002r4-Ln for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Aug 2003 22:09:02 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3f2d79eda; 03 Aug 03 22:09:01 BST To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) Message-Id: From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:09:00 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] [off topic] C Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 4379ff596d474973bf64be0c19f03a24 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 235 ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:02:33 -0500 > The 'compile into ram then execute immediately' option is very much like > the old student compilers for card-based systems like the IBM360 (and I think > EMAS may have have a compiler like this at one point too?) That's what the Scientific Jobber did. Of course, *all* EMAS compilers compiled into memory, effectively, since files and memory were equivalent. But the Jobber actually then ran them immediately, without unloading the compiler. Great for short programs, minimal inter-job overhead. Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-369-1059948502-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 17:09:36 2003 Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h73M9YV2010362 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:09:35 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-369-1059948502-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2003 22:08:23 -0000 X-Sender: c.whitfield@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48124 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2003 22:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2003 22:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.213.8) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2003 22:08:20 -0000 Received: from octavia.blueyonder.co.uk ([80.195.45.90]) by smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:00:49 +0100 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030803225728.0270bab0@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Sender: cw011a5500@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200308031634.h73GY65o004046@gtoal.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2003 22:00:49.0534 (UTC) FILETIME=[B2F8F9E0:01C35A0A] X-eGroups-From: Chris Whitfield From: Chris Whitfield X-Yahoo-Profile: kit_whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 22:58:11 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Tape winder Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 af837834e0093639aff916c4c1fa7403 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 238 Graham, Having difficulty emailing gtoal@gtoal.com ... has there been a change to your email? Chris At 11:34 03/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > Ian Young and I have now got a working fast (700cps) paper tape reader > > interfaced to a PC > >You guys are heroes! > > > and are in a position to start reading the various paper tapes with all > > sorts of goodies > > on them. > >Have you tested it on your Mouses ECCE tape? It'll be interesting to >see if our manual corrections to the faulty copy were accurate. > > > One little snag .... rewinding the things. Would anyone have any bright > > ideas where a > > tape winder (even a broken one) might be acquired before we start on > making on >e > > from first principles. > > All offers gratefully received. > >Chris, wasn't there a manual winder in the box with the pdp8 tapes at >the museum? Might be a bit rusty though... and I doubt any manual winder >will work with the fanfold tapes... (or will the reader itself handle those?) > >If you know where there's an image of this kind of tape reader on the >net I'd love to see what you're working on... > >I'll ask on the classiccmp list for a winder... > >and I'll start hacking a filter for the Atlas Autocode encodings. It'll >probably be easier to get to them soon than it will the museum tapes. > >Graham > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-370-1059984967-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 03:17:24 2003 Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h748HNV2022843 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 03:17:23 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-370-1059984967-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2003 08:16:07 -0000 X-Sender: roderick.mcleod@orkney.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36197 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2003 08:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2003 08:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.102) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2003 08:16:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2003 08:16:05 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Roderick McLeod" X-Originating-IP: 213.122.19.199 X-Yahoo-Profile: roderickrmcleod MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 08:16:04 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] [off topic] C Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 062f4e0615f184715bc92daf8da96780 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 248 Even earlier when I was a KDF9 engineer, watching the card reader getting a bashing as each student's graphics job (typically 10 cards) had to be preceded by compiling the entire graphics routines (several hundred cards), I devised a scheme to save the machine state immediately after compiling the graphics routines. (I think it used the %savecompiler command?) Then a whole class of student jobs could be processed in a fraction of the time taken before, and we did not have to service the card reader so frequently either! Roderick McLeod --- In edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Eager" wrote: > ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:02:33 -0500 > > > The 'compile into ram then execute immediately' option is very much like > > the old student compilers for card-based systems like the IBM360................. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-374-1060216032-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:29:03 2003 Received: from n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.105]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h770T2OO009344 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:29:02 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-374-1060216032-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.156] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2003 00:27:13 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41887 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2003 00:27:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2003 00:27:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.103) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 00:27:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.113] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2003 00:27:11 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20030806160232.11730.qmail@cassiel.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 66.68.253.99 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 00:27:09 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Web page? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 99a6d0ff221d27854c4f7cfdb20293ba Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 333 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, Nick Rothwell wrote: > Where's the web page for this project? Graham, the /history/ link from > your home page is merely 404-compliant. It's supposed to be http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/ but I haven't updated the page in a LONG time. I started work two weekends back on the new content but it's been going slowly. Are you interested in helping? We need both good designers (which I know you are) and people who remember the Edinburgh stuff well (which I'm sure you do) and people who can write good narrative (which I've no idea if you can do, but I'm no great shakes at that myself :-( ) If you went to that URL and it didn't work, it's because my DSL vendor is acting up and my link is down several hours every day. I'm trying to find out if I can get a static IP from my Cable vendor but their user support is non-existent and the idiots at the local shop don't understand the difference between asking for a static IP versus asking for a second DHCP IP. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-371-1060185755-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:45:53 2003 Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.91]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h770jqOO009859 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:45:53 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-371-1060185755-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2003 16:02:36 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86097 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2003 16:02:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2003 16:02:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (82.68.17.41) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2003 16:02:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 14971 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2003 16:02:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (10.0.0.4) by 10.0.0.1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2003 16:02:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 11731 invoked by uid 501); 6 Aug 2003 16:02:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20030806160232.11730.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 6 Aug 2003 16:02:32 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Web page? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 7200b4c0abc5f8e8117707fc14865729 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 336 Where's the web page for this project? Graham, the /history/ link from your home page is merely 404-compliant. -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-372-1060186192-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:48:55 2003 Received: from n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.90]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h770msOO009944 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:48:55 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-372-1060186192-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.156] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2003 16:09:52 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51556 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2003 16:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2003 16:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (82.68.17.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2003 16:09:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 14975 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2003 16:09:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (10.0.0.4) by 10.0.0.1 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2003 16:09:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 11798 invoked by uid 501); 6 Aug 2003 16:09:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20030806160949.11797.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <200308032102.h73L2X9g008533@gtoal.com> (message from Graham Toal on Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:02:33 -0500) References: <200308032102.h73L2X9g008533@gtoal.com> From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 6 Aug 2003 16:09:49 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] [off topic] C Compiler Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 71c2673972be5931fa3c4bac1030bcfe Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 337 > I like this guy Bellard's work. It really struck a chord. His > documentation about it is here: > http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/tcc/tcc-doc.html Nice, and I see it can compile itself. The obvious question is: is the tcc command itself a shell script containing the source code of the compiler? (Er, hang on, that's not going to work...) -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-373-1060188067-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 20:24:53 2003 Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h771OqOO011018 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:24:52 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-373-1060188067-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2003 16:41:07 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23152 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2003 16:41:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2003 16:41:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zinc.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.148) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2003 16:41:06 -0000 Received: from host217-42-172-27.range217-42.btcentralplus.com ([217.42.172.27] helo=[10.0.1.3]) by zinc.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 19kRLV-0002QC-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:41:05 +0100 X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Harry Whitfield X-Yahoo-Profile: g6auc MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:40:58 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: [ed-comp-hist] Tape winder Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 b6f64f1972e66679b97fe407bcf8ae28 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 339 >From: Roger.Broughton@newcastle.ac.uk >Subject: Re: Fwd: [ed-comp-hist] Tape winder >To: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk (Harry Whitfield) >Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:40:35 +0100 (BST) >Cc: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, brian.randell@ncl.ac.uk, > john.lloyd@ncl.ac.uk >X-Newcastle-MailScanner-Information: Please contact >Postmaster@newcastle.ac.uk for more information >X-Newcastle-MailScanner: Found to be clean > > > Roger, >> >> I wondered whether you would be able to help with this. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Harry. > >hi harry, trust you're well > >i have 3 manual and one electric paper tape winders >only one of the manual ones is working >(i guess the electric one will work as well) > >i guess we could let them have the worst of our three. >anybody who is nutty enough to ... > >***** would need an address ***** > >also have in the paper tape department: >creed keyboard and 8 hole punch and power supply >friden keyboard/punch >friden flexowriter keyboard/punch >paper tape comparator (made by rod walker) >creed 5 hole punch >elliot tape reader >westrex 770 keyboard/punch >creed model 92 paper tape reader > >> >> >> >From: Chris Whitfield >> >Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 01:02:46 +0100 >> >Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Tape winder >> >Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com >> > >> >Dear All, >> > >> >Ian Young and I have now got a working fast (700cps) paper tape reader >> >interfaced to a PC >> >and are in a position to start reading the various paper tapes with all >> >sorts of goodies >> >on them. >> >One little snag .... rewinding the things. Would anyone have any bright >> >ideas where a >> >tape winder (even a broken one) might be acquired before we start >>on making one >> >from first principles. >> >All offers gratefully received. >> > > > >Chris Whitfield >-- >Roger Broughton, Brookside East, Seaton Burn, NE13 6EY, 0191 236 7580 -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, School of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-375-1060251674-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:23:23 2003 Received: from n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.81]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h77ANMOO025893 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:23:22 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-375-1060251674-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2003 10:21:14 -0000 X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85016 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2003 10:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2003 10:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (82.68.17.41) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 10:21:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 15851 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2003 10:21:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (10.0.0.4) by 10.0.0.1 with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 10:21:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 19321 invoked by uid 501); 7 Aug 2003 10:20:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20030807102056.19320.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: (gtoal@gtoal.com) References: From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 7 Aug 2003 10:20:56 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Web page? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 3718a084916475e7b927e7ddc0336d54 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 345 > Are you > interested in helping? Possibly; I'm out of work at the moment, but busy trying to do the "upgrading the skill set" thing: currently bashing my way through the enormous monolith that is J2EE, plus picking up all sorts of stuff about digital video processing... But I digress... Actually, it sounds to me that what you want is to get something like OpenCMS up and running somewhere. It would also be nice to get some content/style separation, although XML/XSLT might be overkill. I can give a bit of thought to site layout: how much you want to separate narrative from technical text from downloadables, for instance. > If you went to that URL and it didn't work, it's because my DSL > vendor is acting up and my link is down several hours every day. I sympathise. My ADSL went out in mid-April, and my ISP, who shall remain nameless (oh, OK then, it's One.Tel) spent three months not doing anything about it, after having lost one year's advance payment for the service (for which I shall shortly be taking them to the small claims court). As of this week I'm up and running with Zen, and an entire static routable subnet of my own. > I'm trying to find out if I can get a static IP from my Cable > vendor but their user support is non-existent and the idiots > at the local shop don't understand the difference between > asking for a static IP versus asking for a second DHCP IP. Wouldn't dynDNS help here? -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-376-1060546673-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 15:21:13 2003 Received: from n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.105]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with SMTP id h7AKLBOO026362 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:21:12 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-376-1060546673-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2003 20:17:53 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86565 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2003 20:17:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2003 20:17:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (64.233.42.234) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2003 20:17:50 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id h7AKK8N0026312; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:20:08 -0500 Message-Id: <200308102020.h7AKK8N0026312@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@gtoal.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:20:08 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] more scans Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 80b154d18f41b43b9505aab610ac82c7 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 407 My scanner had been offline for a few weeks but I got it fixed today, so I have scanned in Sticks & Stones, The Polygon Package, ESDL & SIM. They're not online yet, I'll do that later. I'm a little tied up just now because my ReplayTV died a few minutes ago - while I was watching TV and scanning as it happens, and I have to re-image the disk from the backup. Hard disk VCRs are great but they bring a whole new range of problems that VCRs never had. If any of our members in the US want to mail me documents to scan, I'm up for it. The new scanning software I just installed makes it very easy. Used to be a lot of fiddling with previews and cropping, and changing the save-as name each time; now I have it set up to scan and save to a new filename on a single click, so I can get through them pretty fast. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-377-1066277585-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 23:21:10 2003 Received: from teraserver.gtoal.com (teraserver.gtoal.com [192.168.254.250]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id h9G4LAHB012588 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:21:10 -0500 Received: by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) id 3E9101E6023B; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:19:55 -0500 (CDT) Delivered-To: gtoal@gtoal.com Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CD9BD1E600EE for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:19:54 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-377-1066277585-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2003 04:13:05 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72791 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2003 04:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2003 04:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.103) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2003 04:13:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2003 04:13:01 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 24.173.85.38 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 04:13:01 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS files in the archive Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 c29c3f95b13027a6e4c41e53bfa4e172 Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, "Graham Toal" wrote: > After a break of a mere 20+ years I'm now using VMS again, and > the first thing I did (after compiling my portable command-line > version of Ecce in C) was try the VMS binaries that had been > lodged in our archives. And *finally* I have access to a Vax rather than an Alpha, and the Imp77 and Vecce both work great! I found out several interesting things recently: 1) there is a public access VMS that will give you an acct just for the asking. Nice guys. http://deathrow.vistech.net/ 2) The hobbyist OpenVMS licence requires membership of a usergroup. I finally found a VMS UG which allows free associate memberships! (in previous research, every one had a member fee) https://secure2.sba.com/encompass/memberApp/associate.cfm 3) The simh Vax emulator is good enough to run this... Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-378-1066291413-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 03:13:07 2003 Received: from teraserver.gtoal.com (teraserver.gtoal.com [192.168.254.250]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id h9G8D6HB017397 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:13:07 -0500 Received: by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) id 845EE1E6023F; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:11:50 -0500 (CDT) Delivered-To: gtoal@gtoal.com Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.87]) by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A11711E6015D for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:11:47 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-378-1066291413-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2003 08:04:53 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54564 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2003 08:03:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2003 08:03:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.aaisp.net.uk) (217.169.20.17) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2003 08:03:32 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk ([217.169.31.211]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AA36Y-0003Wc-0C for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:03:30 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (217.169.31.211) by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3f8e50cea; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:03:27 +0100 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) Message-Id: From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:03:26 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS files in the archive Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 f39009ef5ba461f48551cb49487d46c8 Status: RO ** Reply to note from "Graham Toal" Thu, 16 Oct 2003 04:13:01 -0000 > 1) there is a public access VMS that will give you an acct > just for the asking. Nice guys. http://deathrow.vistech.net/ > > 2) The hobbyist OpenVMS licence requires membership of a > usergroup. I finally found a VMS UG which allows free associate > memberships! (in previous research, every one had a member fee) > https://secure2.sba.com/encompass/memberApp/associate.cfm Thanks. Very timely. I have a VAX arriving next week... Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-379-1066303867-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 06:39:15 2003 Received: from teraserver.gtoal.com (teraserver.gtoal.com [192.168.254.250]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id h9GBdFHB021127 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:39:15 -0500 Received: by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) id D61C21E6021F; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:37:57 -0500 (CDT) Delivered-To: gtoal@gtoal.com Received: from n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.102]) by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C1D91E60009 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:37:57 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-379-1066303867-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2003 11:31:07 -0000 X-Sender: wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68125 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2003 11:31:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2003 11:31:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO iona.dcs.gla.ac.uk) (130.209.240.35) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2003 11:31:05 -0000 Received: from dustin ([130.209.242.164] helo=dustin.dcs.gla.ac.uk) by iona.dcs.gla.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #3) id 1AA6LQ-00035M-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:31:04 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20031016123004.01a14ad8@mailhost.dcs.gla.ac.uk> X-Sender: wpc@mailhost.dcs.gla.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: From: Paul Cockshott MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:30:34 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS files in the archive Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 cec6d85ef035b7f59d24c832f58ee396 Status: RO At 09:03 AM 10/16/2003 +0100, you wrote: >** Reply to note from "Graham Toal" Thu, 16 Oct 2003 >04:13:01 -0000 > > > 1) there is a public access VMS that will give you an acct > > just for the asking. Nice > guys. http://deathrow.vistech.net/ > > > > 2) The hobbyist OpenVMS licence requires membership of a > > usergroup. I finally found a VMS UG which allows free associate > > memberships! (in previous research, every one had a member fee) > > > https://secure2.sba.com/encompass/memberApp/associate.cfm > >Thanks. Very timely. I have a VAX arriving next week... > where do you get a vax from? is there a second hand market? >Bob > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >ADVERTISEMENT >455b7df.jpg >455b91f.jpg > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the >Yahoo! Terms of Service. Paul Cockshott Dept Computing Science University of Glasgow 0141 330 3125 ICQ 216743879 MSN wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/people/personal/wpc/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-380-1066304252-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 06:46:56 2003 Received: from teraserver.gtoal.com (teraserver.gtoal.com [192.168.254.250]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id h9GBkuHB021350 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:46:56 -0500 Received: by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) id B0BAE1E6024A; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:44:22 -0500 (CDT) Delivered-To: gtoal@gtoal.com Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F1BC1E6021F for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:44:22 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-380-1066304252-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2003 11:37:33 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20882 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2003 11:37:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2003 11:37:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.aaisp.net.uk) (217.169.20.17) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2003 11:37:32 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk ([217.169.31.211]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AA6Rf-00074L-F2 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:37:31 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (217.169.31.211) by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3f8e82f9a; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:37:29 +0100 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) Message-Id: From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:37:28 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS files in the archive Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 bbe0d7397bd4fa9f7b3fb1d3fff29c37 Status: RO ** Reply to note from Paul Cockshott Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:30:34 +0100 > where do you get a vax from? is there a second hand market? I just happened to hear about a higher end VAXStation for sale....more luck than anything else! Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-381-1066309760-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 08:17:34 2003 Received: from teraserver.gtoal.com (teraserver.gtoal.com [192.168.254.250]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id h9GDHYHB023109 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:17:34 -0500 Received: by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) id 0C3331E60255; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:16:16 -0500 (CDT) Delivered-To: gtoal@gtoal.com Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100]) by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 880F31E6000C for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:16:15 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-381-1066309760-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2003 13:09:20 -0000 X-Sender: blaing@windows.microsoft.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39329 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2003 13:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2003 13:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.microsoft.com) (131.107.3.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2003 13:09:15 -0000 Received: from mail5.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.156]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:09:15 -0700 Received: from inet-vrs-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.157]) by mail5.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1039); Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:09:16 -0700 Received: from 157.54.8.109 by inet-vrs-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:09:15 -0700 Received: from red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.102]) by inet-hub-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:09:14 -0700 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1069); Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:08:36 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1069); Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:09:16 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7097.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <91D7F2CEE3425A4A9D11311D09FCE24605415780@WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS files in the archive thread-index: AcOT2eQ3W3pLlM/XTby6WOooAs0F8QADLmEA To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2003 13:09:16.0847 (UTC) FILETIME=[B404A3F0:01C393E6] From: "Bill Laing" X-Yahoo-Profile: blaingfeb MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:09:50 -0700 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS files in the archive Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 6b41ef96fda457f1fb3038c4053ff097 Status: RO If you don't want to buy a "real VAX" then have a look at this emulator. It is very good. http://www.softresint.com/ It is also faster! /Bill -----Original Message----- From: Bob Eager [mailto:rde@tavi.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 4:37 AM To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS files in the archive ** Reply to note from Paul Cockshott Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:30:34 +0100 > where do you get a vax from? is there a second hand market? I just happened to hear about a higher end VAXStation for sale....more luck than anything else! Bob To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-382-1066312526-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 09:03:35 2003 Received: from teraserver.gtoal.com (teraserver.gtoal.com [192.168.254.250]) by gtoal.com (8.12.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id h9GE3ZHB024121 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:03:35 -0500 Received: by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) id CAD851E60255; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:02:16 -0500 (CDT) Delivered-To: gtoal@gtoal.com Received: from n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.104]) by teraserver.gtoal.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1773E1E6025A for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:02:16 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-382-1066312526-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2003 13:55:26 -0000 X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7825 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2003 13:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2003 13:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.aaisp.net.uk) (217.169.20.17) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2003 13:55:20 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk ([217.169.31.211]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AA8b0-00053D-1A for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:55:18 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (217.169.31.211) by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 3f8ea342a; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:55:15 +0100 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) Message-Id: From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:55:14 +0100 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] Re: VMS files in the archive Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SpamProbe: GOOD 0.0000000 d8709974c069991ca067b9609e66ff2e Status: RO ** Reply to note from "Bill Laing" Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:09:50 -0700 > If you don't want to buy a "real VAX" then have a look at this emulator. > It is very good. http://www.softresint.com/ It is also faster! Thanks....hadn't heard of that particular one! Just fancied this VAX because it's in good working order and cost peanuts... (still have a microfiche somewhere with your name on it....) Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-403-1080923319-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 10:51:32 2004 Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i32GpQje028175 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 10:51:27 -0600 Received: from 66.218.66.92 ([66.218.66.92]) by bayeschecker for X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-403-1080923319-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 16:28:40 -0000 X-Sender: Admin@theripper.org.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (qmail 74157 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 16:15:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 16:15:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smg.sirium.net) (213.239.45.34) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 16:15:28 -0000 Received: from gandalf (82-41-220-33.cable.ubr13.edin.blueyonder.co.uk [82.41.220.33]) by smg.sirium.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EE4FAC9B for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:15:04 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <000f01c418cd$aefc5030$21dc2952@gandalf> To: Organization: Dreamscape Productions X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 213.239.45.34 From: "Alba" X-Yahoo-Profile: divinorum2001 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:15:15 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] hi all Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO hi, Just joined the group, so I thought i'd say hello to everyone :) Regards, - = Alba = - ========================== Executive Editor of: The Ripper Online Magazine -------------------------------------- Http://www.theripper.org.uk ========================== Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-404-1082785520-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 01:13:45 2004 Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i3O6DfJB011927 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:13:42 -0500 Received: from 66.218.66.66 ([66.218.66.66]) by bayeschecker for X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-404-1082785520-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.28] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Apr 2004 05:45:20 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69561 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2004 05:45:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2004 05:45:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.106) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2004 05:45:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Apr 2004 05:45:18 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.106 From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 24.173.85.38 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:45:16 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] In Memoriam Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 353 We lost two good ones this month. Robin Popplestone: http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=451262004 Christopher Longuet-Higgins: http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm? id=455322004 Vale! old friends, take you for all in all, when shall we look upon your like again? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-405-1082785815-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 01:18:38 2004 Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i3O6IXJB012425 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:18:34 -0500 Received: from 66.218.66.67 ([66.218.66.67]) by bayeschecker for X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-405-1082785815-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.28] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Apr 2004 05:50:15 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88572 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2004 05:50:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Apr 2004 05:50:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.102) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2004 05:50:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.251] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Apr 2004 05:50:14 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.102 From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 24.173.85.38 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:50:13 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Hal7502 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 354 Rainer has scanned a listing of HAL for the 7502. I've typed it up, although it has not yet been cross-checked by anyone. The files are here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/hal/7502/ with the code here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/hal/7502/hal7502.i15 Also I am in the process of scanning a large contribution from Cornelia Boldyreff from the early days of the Dec-10 (in fact including some of the installation manuals). I'll upload the photographs and the first three manuals tomorrow. Other folks who have paper listings of software - tempus fugit. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-406-1093225566-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 20:52:25 2004 Received: from n42.grp.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i7N1qHhE026283 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:52:18 -0500 Received: from 66.218.67.17 ([66.218.67.17]) by bayeschecker for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:52:25 CDT Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2004 01:46:06 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43353 invoked from network); 23 Aug 2004 01:46:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Aug 2004 01:46:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Aug 2004 01:46:04 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id i7N1q7hE026245 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:52:07 -0500 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i7N1lYbn025729 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:47:35 -0500 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <41294CB4.mailJT41K5RIA@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:47:32 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Lots of news... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 Hello folks, it's been a long time since I've posted so I thought it was time to catch up a little. First news - Cornelia Bolyreff was kind enough to ship over a folder of Dec10 documents, which I scanned and put online some time ago, but forgot to mention - sorry about that. http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/Dec10Report1/ http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/Dec10Rep2/ http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/ERCC%2011th%20annual%20report/ http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/UCSDoffload/ Plus a couple of photos (cleaned up a lot with photoshop): http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/images/dec10bw.jpg http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/images/dec10b.jpg http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/images/dec10staff.jpg And some more manuals I scanned and forgot to mention: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/sticks/ Sticks & Stones http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/skimp_ii/ Skimp II http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/ESDL/ ESDL http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/Polygon/ The Polygon Package http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/SIM/ SIM http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/ArtificialIntelligence/ - TO ARTIFICAL 'INTELLIGENCE Now, the really big news... this happened quite some time ago, and I have been remiss in not reporting it sooner; my only excuse is that I was hoping the guys who actually did the work would also tell you about it, so they could bask in their 15 minutes of fame, but I'm afraid they're as reticent as anyone at Edinburgh so it's left to me to tell the story. I hope I can do them justice. Many years ago, the Computer Science department donated the PDP8, which many of us here remember well, to the Royal Scottish Museum for safekeeping, otherwise it would most likely have been thrown out like so many of our early systems and reports. A couple of years ago when I was visiting Edinburgh, Chris and I tracked it down to a RSM storeroom out on the edge of town, where we were allowed supervised access to see what had been stored. We were pleased to find a lot of paper tapes which looked like they could well have sources of old software on them. The pdp8 was also there but honestly it will take a *significant* effort from experts to make it work again. I'm afraid it is rather run down. Well, following that visit we started a long campaign, which lasted I think about 3 years, to get access to those paper tapes so that we could read them in to a modern computer and put them online. I'm afraid that we kept quiet about most of this process because it turned into something very political for a time, with disagreements over who controlled the items, plus some very strict Museum policies about access and taking items off premises, and some major issues about incomplete or lost paperwork - the pdp8 goodies apparently had never been properly inventoried by the Museum. We were afraid that if we took these issues to the 'high heid yins' at the University, it might develop into a head-butting contest with the Museum, so we took a very low-key approach of building a good personal relationship with the Museum people, and finally it paid off - we were allowed 'backdoor' access to the exhibit, to which we took a portable computer and a tape reader, and read all the tapes in, on the museum premises. When I say 'we' I mean Chris Whitfield and Ian Young. Chris did a tremendous job of schmoozing to make this happen, and Ian did a truly amazing hardware project to make it possible! - he designed a paper-tape-reader controller on an FPGA array, which he created and built into a circuit which interfaced between a PC and an old PTR which we borrowed from a friend on the net. We have some pictures of their efforts: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/images/papertape-project/ (A couple of scans of paper tape in that directory are of broken tapes that couldn't be read - our friend in Grenoble, Hans Pufal, has a program which can decode the punch holes from a scan, so we plan to use those to supplement the tapes which were input directly) We have the raw binaries of the paper tapes online, but I've attempted to decode the ones which were ascii and put them up on a web page, which is here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/pdp8/ProgrammesAndManualsList.html If the tape was not ascii, I've included a hex dump plus an opcode decode make under the assumption it was a PDP8 binary. The coloured "T" numbers on the left are links, if the item was a paper tape. These are the aquisition numbers from the RSM. The other items are documents, which we have not yet scanned. As well as the PDP8 tapes from the RSM, we have two more sources of paper tapes! The first is Chris's MSc thesis project - which I hacked up using a quick Ecce macro into html - http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/apps/Whitfield-Thesis/thesis.html and the other is a set of tapes which Andrew McKendrick rescued from obscurity in the ERCC. These were a MAJOR find! Among them was the earliest known Imp(AA) compiler, which was actually the Atlas Autocode compiler for the KDF9 - ISO version. I have a suspicion that there are also source listings in the set for original Atlas programs - encoded in the character set which that machine used. We do have an info sheet for the encoding but no-one has spent time on it yet to decode them. These files are currently here pending proper classification: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/staging-area/ (8mb scans of the char set are here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/images/atlas01.bmp http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/images/atlas02.bmp ) - if anyone wants to look at the files and identify any that might be in Flexowriter format, we'd certainly appreciate the help. That'll do for now. The project is still alive and going fairly well, despite the lack of postings here. When I get time to work on it, I also update our Wiki at http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/ - which y'all are also welcome to do. It's actually very easy - just click the "Pi" symbol, and type in the new text using the obvious and very simple markup conventions. I recently aquired a program to grab all our yahoo groups articles, which I'll also be putting online on our site in a more accessible format. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-407-1094173056-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 20:06:57 2004 Received: from n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i8316ohE000440 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:06:51 -0500 Received: from 66.218.66.65 ([66.218.66.65]) by bayeschecker for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:06:57 CDT Received: from [66.218.66.158] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2004 00:57:36 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56316 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2004 00:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2004 00:57:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2004 00:57:32 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id i8316ihE000423 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:06:44 -0500 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i8316hu2000417 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:06:43 -0500 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <4137C3A3.mailP7L1DTCUX@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:06:43 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Off topic: gmail accts Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I don't know if the GMail thing has made it to scotland yet, but I have 5 spare invitations for accounts if anyone here wants one. (If you haven't heard about it yet, Google Mail is a free email acct with 1Gb (yes, gigabyte) of disk quota, and search engine facilities for finding your old mail.) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-408-1095635618-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 18:27:39 2004 Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i8JNRXhE002329 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:27:34 -0500 Received: from 66.218.66.77 ([66.218.66.77]) by bayeschecker for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:27:39 CDT Received: from [66.218.66.27] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Sep 2004 23:13:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: bob@eager.cx X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75045 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2004 23:13:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Sep 2004 23:13:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO kipling.tavi.co.uk) (217.169.31.210) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 2004 23:13:37 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (rikki.tavi.co.uk [217.169.31.211]) by kipling.tavi.co.uk (Weasel v1.71) for ; 20 Sep 2004 00:12:21 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (217.169.31.211) by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 414e1250a; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:12:17 +0100 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) Message-ID: <0000741320.000001RQ@kipling.tavi.co.uk> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.169.31.210 X-eGroups-From: "Bob Eager" From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:12:16 +0100 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Papers on DEIMOS? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1431 I'm sure I once saw a paper on DEIMOS (the PDP-11 operating system used for FEPs, node processors, ERTE, etc...), probably by Brian Gilmore. Am I imagining this? The typeface of Computer Journal comes to mind... (I'm currently working on a DEIMOS lookalike, partly for fun and partly for teaching purposes; it runs on any PC. So far I have the kernel and the console task pretty well done). Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-409-1095675433-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 05:31:21 2004 Received: from n42.grp.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i8KAVGhE009087 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:31:17 -0500 Received: from 66.218.67.17 ([66.218.67.17]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:31:21 CDT Received: from [66.218.66.29] by n42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2004 10:17:14 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89462 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2004 10:17:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Sep 2004 10:17:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Sep 2004 10:17:12 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id i8KAVBhO009061; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:31:13 -0500 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i8K7Ut8H014198; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:30:55 -0500 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <414E872E.mailABO1STUWW@gtoal.com> References: <0000741320.000001RQ@kipling.tavi.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <0000741320.000001RQ@kipling.tavi.co.uk> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:30:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Papers on DEIMOS? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1469 If either Bob or the group gets this twice, my apologies. Something messed up and I'm not sure if my last mail went out. http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/deimos/ http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas2/deimos/ http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm09/ http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm11/ Good luck with the project, it'll be interesting to see what you and your students can put together. Brian's thesis report is in there somewhere but you may need to compile a copy of layout to format it :-) Regards Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-410-1095675466-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 05:34:01 2004 Received: from n60.grp.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i8KAXuhE009518 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:33:57 -0500 Received: from 66.218.67.120 ([66.218.67.120]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:34:00 CDT Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n60.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2004 10:17:47 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: root@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89959 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2004 10:17:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Sep 2004 10:17:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Sep 2004 10:17:44 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id i8KAVBhU009061; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:31:14 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i8K6tGQ8011241; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:55:16 -0500 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <414E7ED4.mail6E21U1VZ3@gtoal.com> References: <0000741320.000001RQ@kipling.tavi.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <0000741320.000001RQ@kipling.tavi.co.uk> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:55:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Papers on DEIMOS? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1470 > I'm sure I once saw a paper on DEIMOS (the PDP-11 operating system used for > FEPs, node processors, ERTE, etc...), probably by Brian Gilmore. > > Am I imagining this? The typeface of Computer Journal comes to mind... > > (I'm currently working on a DEIMOS lookalike, partly for fun and partly for > teaching purposes; it runs on any PC. So far I have the kernel and the console > task pretty well done). I believe Brian's thesis, along with the full Deimos sources, are in our archives: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm09/ http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm11/ I hope you find something helpful in there! I'm not sure what the full relationship is between DEIMOS, ERTE, the FEPS, and MUSS11, but I'm fairly sure we did manage to recover significant parts of all of them! So why did you decide to do a Deimos-like system? I thought you were more interested in getting EMAS online again? Was that just too much of a project to take on? Are you writing the new Deimos in C? It would be great for you and your students to put your work-in-progress somewhere visible on the web so we can follow along with your work! I think we have enough of the Deimos source code and binaries to be able to bring it up under bob supnik's pdp-11 emulator... Can I encourage you to write up anything you find about Deimos in the group Wiki please? (http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/) Great to hear from you again, it's been too long! G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-411-1095722658-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 18:38:48 2004 Received: from n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i8KNcUhE013773 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:38:33 -0500 Received: from 66.94.237.32 ([66.94.237.32]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:38:48 CDT Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2004 23:24:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.192] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2004 23:24:18 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: rde@tavi.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14556 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2004 23:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Sep 2004 23:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO kipling.tavi.co.uk) (217.169.31.210) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Sep 2004 23:24:16 -0000 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (rikki.tavi.co.uk [217.169.31.211]) by kipling.tavi.co.uk (Weasel v1.71) for ; 21 Sep 2004 00:24:14 +0100 Received: from rikki.tavi.co.uk (217.169.31.211) by rikki.tavi.co.uk with SMTP id 414f669aa; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:24:10 +0100 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 3.0) Message-ID: <0001454550.000002E1@kipling.tavi.co.uk> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.169.31.210 From: "Bob Eager" X-Yahoo-Profile: rde42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:24:09 +0100 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Papers on DEIMOS? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1506 ** Reply to note from Graham Toal Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:55:16 -0500 > I hope you find something helpful in there! I'm not sure what the > full relationship is between DEIMOS, ERTE, the FEPS, and MUSS11, but > I'm fairly sure we did manage to recover significant parts of all of them! I remember using MUSS11 in about 1975. DEIMOS arrived at Kent in 1979. One was in some way a development of the other, I think. Brian? DEIMOS was the base operating system for the FEPs, ERTE, et al. > So why did you decide to do a Deimos-like system? I thought you were > more interested in getting EMAS online again? Was that just too much > of a project to take on? No, this happened 'on the side'. I set a project for a student which involved doing a small message passing kernel. I didn't want them to get bogged down in the minutiae of bootstraps so I wrote that. Then the next bit. Then the next bit. I also wanted to see for myself how to 'work' the PC hardware. I shall probably work on it in spare office hours, and use it as a tiny example system. > Are you writing the new Deimos in C? Yes. I wouldn't call it 'the new DEIMOS' although it has a very similar structure. I thought a reference to DEIMOS would be good to add to the resources I'm going to provide to anyone who is interested. > It would be great for you and your students to put your work-in-progress > somewhere visible on the web so we can follow along with your work! Oh, I will. Until the student is finished, I only have what I've published for him. That's at: http://sdos.tavi.co.uk (although internally it is called PHOBOS!) > I think we have enough of the Deimos source code and binaries to > be able to bring it up under bob supnik's pdp-11 emulator... I haven't ever been able to find the PERM source...but I'll take a look in the bits I didn't send... > Can I encourage you to write up anything you find about Deimos in > the group Wiki please? (http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/) Of course. Must do my biog. too! Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-412-1095911125-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 23:52:42 2004 Received: from n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i8N4qbJb002457 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:52:38 -0500 Received: from 66.94.237.20 ([66.94.237.20]) by bayeschecker for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:52:42 CDT Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2004 03:45:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.196] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2004 03:45:25 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32003 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2004 03:45:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2004 03:45:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n40.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.108) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2004 03:45:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.123] by n40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2004 03:45:24 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0001454550.000002E1@kipling.tavi.co.uk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.108 From: "Graham Toal" X-Originating-IP: 24.173.85.38 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 03:45:22 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Papers on DEIMOS? Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1769 --- In edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Eager" wrote: > No, this happened 'on the side'. I set a project for a student which involved > doing a small message passing kernel. I didn't want them to get bogged down in > the minutiae of bootstraps so I wrote that. Then the next bit. Then the next > bit. I also wanted to see for myself how to 'work' the PC hardware. I shall > probably work on it in spare office hours, and use it as a tiny example > system. > Oh, I will. Until the student is finished, I only have what I've published for > him. That's at: > > http://sdos.tavi.co.uk Here are 3 more links for your links page: http://mega-tokyo.com/osfaq2/ http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue85/mahoney.html http://www.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/ - I had filed those under "if we ever try to port EMAS to Intel..." :-) (An alternative I've been thinking about for porting EMAS to Intel is to use the "uml" system to supply an underlying machine abstraction and just write the OS as a user level above that, running on top of linux as a user process. All we would need for this would be a robust Imp compiler, which I have some hope we'll still get some day, if Peter ever gets bored with skiing holidays and all the other fun things he's enjoying in his retirement ;-) ) G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-413-1096766864-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Oct 2 21:37:50 2004 Received: from n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i932bfJb012778 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:37:42 -0500 Received: from 66.94.237.32 ([66.94.237.32]) by bayeschecker for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:37:49 CDT Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2004 01:27:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.198] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2004 01:27:45 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60342 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2004 01:27:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2004 01:27:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2004 01:27:42 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id i932baJb012750 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:37:36 -0500 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i932bZun012743 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:37:35 -0500 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <415F65EF.mail1XW18SIZG@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:37:35 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Imp manual in html Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2416 I found a useful tool today for converting PDF files to html (but as pages that are png image files, not text). I've done one already as a test: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/docs/imp77-language/ Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-414-1099189834-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Oct 30 22:47:52 2004 Received: from n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id i9V3liWS003934 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:47:45 -0500 Received: from 66.94.237.47 ([66.94.237.47]) by bayeschecker for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:47:52 CDT Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2004 02:30:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.198] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2004 02:30:34 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32454 invoked from network); 31 Oct 2004 02:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Oct 2004 02:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Oct 2004 02:30:32 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id i9V3ldWS003926 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:47:40 -0500 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i9V3ldmA003925 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:47:39 -0500 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <4184605B.mailZF11OWJ8@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:47:39 -0500 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 758 It may be a little premature to mention this on this group, but a couple of readers know about this already and I'm having such fun with it I wanted to brag a little :-) ... Gordon Hughes has some imp utilities he uses in his business and his customer wanted a C version so they could use them on another architecture. We tried both of the existing imp to C utilities, and didn't have much luck (Peter Stephen's was for imp80 and required too many source rewrites, and my first hack which decompiled imp77's icode to simple C just didn't handle enough of the language, plus icode is rather low level and spoils the maintainability of the translations). This new program, which I've put about 4 full days work into so far, is a new parser which handles both imp80 and imp77, and goes to some lengths to generate C that looks like it might have been written in C to begin with. It's not finished yet (a couple of major features are still to be implemented, such as declarations) but what it already does is pretty cool. I'm particularly proud of this section of code below: Imp: %if Junk -> (".") %start length(Junk) = Length(Junk)-1 %while Charno(Junk,length(Junk))='0' Junk = Junk."0" %if Charno(Junk,length(Junk))='0' %finish C: if (strchr (junk, '.')) { while (junk[(strlen (junk)) - 1] == '0') junk[strlen (junk) - 1] = '\0'; if (junk[(strlen (junk)) - 1] == '0') strcat (junk, "0"); } The only problem with all of this is that last year I wasted *weeks* writing icode to c because I thought that starting with a working compiler would be far easier than writing the whole thing from scratch. If only I'd realised then what I know now! Writing parsers is actually very easy with the right tools, as long as you have a BNF to work from. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-415-1099310111-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 07:29:25 2004 Received: from n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA1DTKWS028265 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:29:21 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.46 ([66.94.237.46]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 07:29:25 CST Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 11:55:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.198] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 11:55:12 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97543 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2004 11:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2004 11:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.43) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2004 11:55:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n9.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 11:51:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 11:51:16 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4184605B.mailZF11OWJ8@gtoal.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.43 From: "Gordon Hughes" X-Originating-IP: 194.223.199.120 X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 11:51:01 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 795 Grahame's message gives me a chance to say publicly how impressed I have been at the progress that he has made on this, but the main purpose of the message was to admit to embarssment at the code sample which he showed! > %if Junk -> (".") %start > length(Junk) = Length(Junk)-1 %while Charno(Junk,length(Junk))='0' > Junk = Junk."0" %if Charno(Junk,length(Junk))='0' > %finish My initial reaction was "I could not have written that rubbish", but on checking, it appears that 5 years ago I could have! Anyone who remembers Imp will realise that the concatenation of "0" to the string can never happen. It should say: Junk = Junk."0" %if Charno(Junk,length(Junk))='.' For those who have not worked out what it is trying to do, it is taking a real number represented as a string and doing trailing '0' deletion after the decimal point, but (ideally) ensuring that there was always at least one decimal place present after the point. I am open to suggestions on any better algorithms! best regards Gordon Hughes ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-416-1099333557-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 13:43:40 2004 Received: from n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA1JhZWS021576 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:43:36 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.16 ([66.94.237.16]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 13:43:39 CST Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 18:25:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.160] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 18:25:57 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2493 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2004 18:09:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2004 18:09:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (82.68.17.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2004 18:09:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 12564 invoked by uid 501); 1 Nov 2004 18:07:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: (jgh@blueyonder.co.uk) References: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 82.68.17.41 From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 1 Nov 2004 18:07:16 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 804 > For those who have not worked out what it is trying to do, > it is taking a real number represented as a string and > doing trailing '0' deletion after the decimal point, > but (ideally) ensuring that there was always at least > one decimal place present after the point. > > I am open to suggestions on any better algorithms! Seems to be crying out for a regex library to me, guv. -- N. -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-417-1099343947-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 16:36:53 2004 Received: from n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA1MalWS015200 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:36:49 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.36 ([66.94.237.36]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:36:53 CST Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 21:19:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.199] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 21:19:07 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91667 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2004 19:31:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2004 19:31:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2004 19:31:06 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id iA1Kk8WS031633 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:46:08 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA1Kk8Ft031632 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:46:08 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <4186A08F.mailNE911T1YT@gtoal.com> References: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> In-Reply-To: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:46:07 -0600 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 805 > > For those who have not worked out what it is trying to do, > > it is taking a real number represented as a string and > > doing trailing '0' deletion after the decimal point, > > but (ideally) ensuring that there was always at least > > one decimal place present after the point. > > > > I am open to suggestions on any better algorithms! > > Seems to be crying out for a regex library to me, guv. Once it's in C, I have one that's easy to use. In fact I'll be using it to map Imp's string resolution into, eg: %if S -> ("str1").A.("str2").B %then will map to if (sregexf(S, ".*str1(.*)str2(.*)", "\\1", &A, "\\2", &B)) { // like sscanf but with regexps or something very similar. So you can start with the existing Imp, then tweak it by adding regexps rather than simple string matches. The other tweak I'm doing for readability is conflating all imp output calls into a minimum number of printfs, eg w = "world" print string("Hello ".w) space write(n,4) newline becomes strcpy(w, "world); fprintf(outstream, "Hello %s %4d\n", w, n); G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-418-1099344166-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 16:40:34 2004 Received: from n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA1MeQWS015718 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:40:27 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.20 ([66.94.237.20]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:40:32 CST Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 21:22:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.198] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 21:22:46 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6035 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2004 21:21:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2004 21:21:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.213.8) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2004 21:21:28 -0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([82.41.9.116]) by smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:21:43 +0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> In-Reply-To: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> Message-Id: <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2004 21:21:43.0963 (UTC) FILETIME=[C9453EB0:01C4C058] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.188.213.8 From: Rainer Thonnes MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:21:04 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 806 On Monday 01 November 2004 6:07 pm, Nick Rothwell wrote: > > For those who have not worked out what it is trying to do, > > it is taking a real number represented as a string and > > doing trailing '0' deletion after the decimal point, > > but (ideally) ensuring that there was always at least > > one decimal place present after the point. > > > > I am open to suggestions on any better algorithms! > > Seems to be crying out for a regex library to me, guv. (f1/./r*(lv.0.e)*(v/./s/.0/)?)?m ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-419-1099345558-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 17:03:43 2004 Received: from n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA1N3cWS018475 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:03:39 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.41 ([66.94.237.41]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:03:42 CST Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 21:45:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 21:45:58 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18668 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2004 21:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2004 21:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (82.68.17.41) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2004 21:44:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 14510 invoked by uid 501); 1 Nov 2004 21:43:41 -0000 Message-ID: <20041101214341.14509.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> (message from Rainer Thonnes on Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:21:04 +0000) References: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 82.68.17.41 From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 1 Nov 2004 21:43:41 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 808 > > Seems to be crying out for a regex library to me, guv. > (f1/./r*(lv.0.e)*(v/./s/.0/)?)?m Wow, that's tickled a few ancient brain cells. -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-420-1099347700-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 17:39:28 2004 Received: from n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA1NdMWS023250 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:39:23 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.50 ([66.94.237.50]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:39:28 CST Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 22:21:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.158] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2004 22:21:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95256 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2004 20:05:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2004 20:05:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.172) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2004 20:05:37 -0000 Received: from user-1632.l2.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk ([81.77.166.96] helo=MYCOMPUTER) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 1COiQr-00010w-0j for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:05:37 +0000 Message-ID: <001f01c4c04e$2035b7f0$60a64d51@MYCOMPUTER> To: References: <4184605B.mailZF11OWJ8@gtoal.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.92.195.172 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:05:24 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 813 Graham, May I add my commendations on your progress with IMP to C translation. I've had several shots at this myself, and had to admit defeat. Apart from the intellectual challenge, it could have been useful to my company, Clan Systems. Recently I have been trying to go back to an early research interest of mine: natural language processing -- as opposed to formal languages such as programming languages. If we can't succeed in translating formal languages algorithmically, what chance for natural languages? None at all, without using a strongly driven grammatical approach. BNF is not powerful enough, but just trying to hack it by programming won't work. Regards, Hamish. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-421-1099355914-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 19:56:21 2004 Received: from n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA21uGWS011847 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:56:17 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.38 ([66.94.237.38]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:56:20 CST Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 00:38:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 00:38:34 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67511 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 00:38:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2004 00:38:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 00:38:30 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id iA21uAWS011831; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:56:10 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA21uAvr011826; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:56:10 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> References: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:56:10 -0600 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 818 > > Seems to be crying out for a regex library to me, guv. > > (f1/./r*(lv.0.e)*(v/./s/.0/)?)?m You mean ecce(string, "(f1/./r*(lv.0.e)*(v/./s/.0/)?)?m") :-) Wouldn't be hard to do, actually. Relatively lightweight by modern standards - I think the regexp library code is actually larger than the original ecce (I compiled ecce in C to 24K with one compiler; yes, I know the really old systems were much smaller. The days of 8K standalone programs are long gone...) I've often thought it would be a useful extension to ecce to allow a one-shot command on the command-line for use in scripts; easier that the hassles that we currently have: ecce file < /dev/null 2>&1 (f1/./r*(lv.0.e)*(v/./s/.0/)?)?m %c EOD would be a lot nicer as ... ecce --silent --command "(f1/./r*(lv.0.e)*(v/./s/.0/)?)?m" file Yup, good idea, I think I'll do that :-) (although pulling in the Gnu command option parser probably just doubled the size of the code!) btw Rainer, you've got to get with the times; ecce goes backwards nowadays ;-) ... (r0 (v-/0/l)0v-/./e0i/0/m, m)0 Actually it was Richard Marshall's RED which rationalised the command set so that all commands which could take '-' would do so. I just copied him; it seemed an obvious extension. (We never did find the sources of RED; RMM's acct on EMAS was wiped) G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-422-1099388608-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 05:12:26 2004 Received: from n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA2BC3WS006149 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:12:04 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.20 ([66.94.237.20]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:12:25 CST Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 09:44:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.30] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 09:44:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13293 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 09:43:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2004 09:43:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.relio.com) (64.46.100.52) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 09:43:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 900 invoked by uid 399); 2 Nov 2004 09:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.2?) (mike@mikescommunity.com@82.41.57.90) by mail.relio.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 09:41:23 -0000 Message-ID: <41875643.6040705@mikescommunity.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.2 (Windows/20040707) X-Accept-Language: en, en-us To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com References: <4184605B.mailZF11OWJ8@gtoal.com> <001f01c4c04e$2035b7f0$60a64d51@MYCOMPUTER> In-Reply-To: <001f01c4c04e$2035b7f0$60a64d51@MYCOMPUTER> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.46.100.52 From: Mike Scott MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:41:23 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 839 Hi Hamish >> None at all, without using a strongly driven grammatical approach... << Hmmm, I wonder... This is drifting slowly off-topic but... I've got a gut feeling that this may turn out to be a dead end in the long run. I suspect that the solution that's one day found will be something entirely new that none of us has even dreamed of yet. I just can't see a brute force grammatical approach every working fully. Natural language changes and evolves and can't be fully "pinned down" to a formal grammar. In addition any parser or recogniser has to be able to cope with *mistakes* and almost random changes and dropped words, stops, etc. that people make in informal speech and sometimes writing. IOW, it's relatively easy to write a parser that can handle correct input. The challenge is to write one that can make sense of incorrect input, which is what natural language tends to be full of and yet is still understood by humans. What do you think? Cheers, Mike. Hamish Dewar wrote: > Graham, > May I add my commendations on your progress with IMP to C translation. > I've had several shots at this myself, and had to admit defeat. Apart > from > the intellectual challenge, it could have been useful to my company, Clan > Systems. > > Recently I have been trying to go back to an early research interest of > mine: natural language processing -- as opposed to formal languages > such as > programming languages. If we can't succeed in translating formal > languages > algorithmically, what chance for natural languages? > > None at all, without using a strongly driven grammatical approach. > BNF is not powerful enough, but just trying to hack it by programming > won't > work. > > Regards, > Hamish. > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > > > > Get unlimited calls to > > U.S./Canada > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Yahoo! Groups Links* > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-423-1099390517-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 05:33:12 2004 Received: from n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA2BX6WS009169 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:33:07 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.16 ([66.94.237.16]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:33:11 CST Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 10:15:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.198] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 10:15:18 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34207 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 10:15:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2004 10:15:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (82.68.17.41) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 10:15:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 5071 invoked by uid 501); 2 Nov 2004 10:15:06 -0000 Message-ID: <20041102101506.5070.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> (message from Graham Toal on Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:56:10 -0600) References: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 82.68.17.41 From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 2 Nov 2004 10:15:06 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 841 > You mean > > ecce(string, "(f1/./r*(lv.0.e)*(v/./s/.0/)?)?m") > > :-) This is a really sweet idea, since ECCE is so lightweight that packaging it as a string manipulation library makes a lot of sense. [I suppose you could even have a two-argument form: ecce(str1, str2, "($r)*"); ] Of course, I would want to be able to write ecce(string, "%A"); -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-424-1099391340-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 05:46:54 2004 Received: from n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA2BknWS011616 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:46:50 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.35 ([66.94.237.35]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:46:53 CST Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 10:29:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 10:29:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: rainer@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7351 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 10:28:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2004 10:28:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.213.6) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 10:28:59 -0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([82.41.9.116]) by smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:29:25 +0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> In-Reply-To: <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> Message-Id: <200411021028.49017.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2004 10:29:25.0767 (UTC) FILETIME=[D3803970:01C4C0C6] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.188.213.6 From: Rainer Thonnes MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:28:48 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 842 On Tuesday 02 November 2004 1:56 am, Graham Toal wrote: > > btw Rainer, you've got to get with the times; ecce goes > backwards nowadays ;-) ... (r0 (v-/0/l)0v-/./e0i/0/m, m)0 The trouble with not sticking with the old tools you know and love, Grasshopper, is that you get to be a novice all over again with the new ones, which can lead to novice-style mistakes getting made. You're meant to remove trailing zeroes even from a non-zero fractional part. > Actually it was Richard Marshall's RED which rationalised > the command set so that all commands which could take '-' > would do so. I just copied him; it seemed an obvious > extension. (We never did find the sources of RED; RMM's > acct on EMAS was wiped) Wasn't it superseded by IE? It knew all the things you could possibly want to do to a piece of text, and had a "button" for each of them. Perhaps someone out there will remember the keystroke sequence to do qualified trailing zero deletion in real numbers. :-) Wasn't it Paul McLellan who first made his version of ecce do all that minus stuff? The original, of course, had minus-variants only for E and M, which in the "compilation" phase were mapped to unused codes O and W, by adding 10 to the ASCII code of the command letter in both cases. That W looks like an upside-down M was a poetic bonus. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-425-1099408004-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 10:27:11 2004 Received: from n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA2GR6WS027854 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:27:07 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.45 ([66.94.237.45]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:27:10 CST Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 15:09:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.27] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2004 15:09:14 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3764 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2004 15:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2004 15:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.173) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2004 15:06:42 -0000 Received: from user-2201.l3.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk ([81.77.136.153] helo=MYCOMPUTER) by cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.41) id 1CP0F7-0006dD-N4 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:06:41 +0000 Message-ID: <000601c4c0ed$86f3c000$99884d51@MYCOMPUTER> To: References: <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> <200411021028.49017.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.92.195.173 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:06:27 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 844 >The trouble with not sticking with the old tools you know and >love, Grasshopper, is that you get to be a novice all over again >with the new ones, which can lead to novice-style mistakes >getting made. >You're meant to remove trailing zeroes even from a non-zero >fractional part. Nice one, Rainer. Moral: be sure your translation is not only more compact but also equivalent. Regarding the mapping of E- and M- in ECCE, I am embarrassed (as I have posted before) to be reminded of such opportunistic techniques. Implementing things in this way of course made it more difficult to generalise some of the concepts later. It was, I believe, objectively justified at the time -- that is, it made it possible to implement features that otherwise couldn't have been provided. However I am well aware that the constraints of processing power and particularly storage space in those days had a permanent detrimental effect on my programming style. For those who don't go back that far, here's a fact. I recently upgraded my laptop with an additional 256Mbyte of RAM at a cost of £35. Many moons ago, I had to sweat blood to make a case for upgrading the departmental PDP15 with 4k 18-bit words, at a cost of £4000. By my calculation, that was more than 3 million times the current cost of computer memory. Which takes no account of inflation or increases in performance and reliability. No wonder we went into bit-splitting or whatever it was called. Hamish. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-426-1099450022-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 22:05:09 2004 Received: from n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA3453WS008753 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:05:04 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.32 ([66.94.237.32]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 22:05:08 CST Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2004 02:47:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.196] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2004 02:47:03 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7934 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2004 02:47:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2004 02:47:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 02:47:01 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id iA344wWS008725; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:04:58 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA344w5p008724; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:04:58 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <418858EA.mail5H91W3HY5@gtoal.com> References: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> <20041102101506.5070.qmail@cassiel.com> In-Reply-To: <20041102101506.5070.qmail@cassiel.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 22:04:58 -0600 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 852 > > You mean > > > > ecce(string, "(f1/./r*(lv.0.e)*(v/./s/.0/)?)?m") > > > > :-) > > This is a really sweet idea, since ECCE is so lightweight that > packaging it as a string manipulation library makes a lot of sense. It's done, albeit a quick hack. If you plan to use it in production code you might want to add some checks like output string max size. http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/gtoal/ecinner.c http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/gtoal/ecinner.c.html It's about an 18K binary. I looked into the size of the regexp library .o files and depending on the version there's one around 8K and a diffeent one around 30K! I removed secondary input (N, A, and %S), and P and G. Ideally this procedure will do no I/O. (Error handling needs a little work). Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-427-1099476442-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 05:27:43 2004 Received: from n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA3BRSWS010869 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:27:29 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.32 ([66.94.237.32]) by bayeschecker for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:27:42 CST Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2004 10:07:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.156] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2004 10:07:22 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: nick@cassiel.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30107 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2004 10:07:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2004 10:07:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cassiel.com) (82.68.17.41) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 10:07:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 2789 invoked by uid 501); 3 Nov 2004 10:07:17 -0000 Message-ID: <20041103100717.2788.qmail@cassiel.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: <418858EA.mail5H91W3HY5@gtoal.com> (message from Graham Toal on Tue, 02 Nov 2004 22:04:58 -0600) References: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> <20041102101506.5070.qmail@cassiel.com> <418858EA.mail5H91W3HY5@gtoal.com> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 82.68.17.41 From: Nick Rothwell X-Yahoo-Profile: manmustmove MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 3 Nov 2004 10:07:17 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 858 > It's done, albeit a quick hack. If you plan to use it in production > code you might want to add some checks like output string max size. > > http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/gtoal/ecinner.c > http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/gtoal/ecinner.c.html Actually, I'd probably port it into Java if I was going to deploy it (and I'm not even going to think about the localisation/Unicode issues). But it's definitely good to have the C version. -- nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http://www.cassiel.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-428-1099490209-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 09:15:04 2004 Received: from n9a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA3FF0WS015528 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:15:01 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.43 ([66.94.237.43]) by bayeschecker for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:15:04 CST Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n9.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2004 13:56:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.31] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2004 13:56:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: cindymccarron@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80315 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2004 13:56:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2004 13:56:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 13:56:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2004 13:56:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.128] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2004 13:56:42 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "cindymccarron" X-Originating-IP: 212.74.11.251 X-Yahoo-Profile: cindymccarron MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:56:41 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Jack Vettriano Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 860 Jack Vettriano Just to let people know that Jack Vettriano is doing a book signing tonight @ Waterstones, George Street, Edinburgh, 6pm (0131 225 3436) His new book is so beautiful, contains his most famous paintings and some you will never have seen before. Buy yourself a book and have it signed by Scotlands most popular painter. Cindy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-429-1099919715-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 08:40:05 2004 Received: from n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iA8EdwWS018653 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:39:59 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.45 ([66.94.237.45]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:40:04 CST Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2004 13:15:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.31] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2004 13:15:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18056 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2004 13:15:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2004 13:15:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2004 13:15:14 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id iA8EW4Wi017386; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:32:11 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA876r0I009599; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 01:06:53 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <418F1B0C.mail62N1B59OM@gtoal.com> References: <20041101180716.12563.qmail@cassiel.com> <200411012121.04236.rainer@blueyonder.co.uk> <4186E93A.mailNE93ADBQI@gtoal.com> <20041102101506.5070.qmail@cassiel.com> <418858EA.mail5H91W3HY5@gtoal.com> <20041103100717.2788.qmail@cassiel.com> In-Reply-To: <20041103100717.2788.qmail@cassiel.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 01:06:52 -0600 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 973 Spent the weekend working on the History project... I've put *all* the files recovered from EMAS online now, after spending a long time going through them looking for the few files which shouldn't be made public (for example personal CVs, or copyright files like the pascal compiler validation suite). I hacked a version of Layout last weekend to generate HTML and have been using it this weekend to add content to the web site. I've considerably updated several sections of the Wiki, including adding a full Imp80 manual. And I have the first significant program that's been put through the new imp2c translator: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/new-gt-imp/test2-working.c Note: this was 95% auto translated and 5% finished off by hand. I do plan to finish the translator but even 95% of the work is a major help if you're committed to converting some particular program and it's either that or 100% manual... One final reminder - the website *is* a Wiki, and if you want to add content, write your own personal info page, or whatever, just dive right in and edit it. Click on the "pi" symbol at the foot of each page. Don't worry if you mess up, I can undo mistakes or copy-edit content if you have trouble with the formatting. regards Graham PS Here are some pages I've updated: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/PDPImp http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/Pdp915Os http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/Imp http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/Imp80 http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas2/compilers/imp80/doc/manual/imp80.html http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/ImpLanguageAndCompiler http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/PeterStephens http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/PopUsenetPost http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/AtlasAutocode http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/AlanBundy http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/JohnMurison ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-430-1100092048-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Nov 10 08:30:32 2004 Received: from n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iAAEUSWS031522 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:30:29 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.44 ([66.94.237.44]) by bayeschecker for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:30:32 CST Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2004 13:07:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2004 13:07:28 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87322 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2004 13:07:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2004 13:07:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mr1.dcs.gla.ac.uk) (130.209.249.184) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2004 13:07:26 -0000 Received: from ex1.ad.dcs.gla.ac.uk ([130.209.249.157]:9549) by mr1.dcs.gla.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CRs1Q-000831-VY for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:56:24 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ed-comp-hist] new imp to c translator Thread-Index: AcTAYUToVDPpHKJWRhW8Z48l6LUGpQGwzqFA To: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 130.209.249.184 From: "Paul Cockshott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:56:25 -0000 Subject: RE: [ed-comp-hist] new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1064 Hamish, What sort of grammar are you thinking of, there are obviously many tools more advanced than bnf. If one went too far would one not just end up with something equivalent to lambda notation and end up with the sort of program - rounds that you deplore. ________________________________ From: Hamish Dewar [mailto:hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk] Sent: 01 November 2004 20:05 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] new imp to c translator Graham, May I add my commendations on your progress with IMP to C translation. I've had several shots at this myself, and had to admit defeat. Apart from the intellectual challenge, it could have been useful to my company, Clan Systems. Recently I have been trying to go back to an early research interest of mine: natural language processing -- as opposed to formal languages such as programming languages. If we can't succeed in translating formal languages algorithmically, what chance for natural languages? None at all, without using a strongly driven grammatical approach. BNF is not powerful enough, but just trying to hack it by programming won't work. Regards, Hamish. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Get unlimited calls to U.S./Canada ________________________________ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-431-1100354588-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat Nov 13 09:23:52 2004 Received: from n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iADFNkCK030301 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:23:46 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.32 ([66.94.237.32]) by bayeschecker for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:23:52 CST Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2004 14:03:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.95] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2004 14:03:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30897 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2004 14:03:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2004 14:03:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.171) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2004 14:03:03 -0000 Received: from user-7994.l2.c5.dsl.pol.co.uk ([81.76.63.58] helo=MYCOMPUTER) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 1CSySR-0005fo-SG for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:00:51 +0000 Message-ID: <002401c4c989$2a802440$3a3f4c51@MYCOMPUTER> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.92.195.171 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:00:43 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] new imp to c translator Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1185 Paul, Good to hear from you. Hope all goes well. The major influence on me when I was working in linguistic research was Noam Chomsky who, coming from a linguistics background, developed the concept of Context-Free grammars, just as others coming from an emerging computing background were formulating BNF. I still think, despite the developments since then, that Chomsky's Transformational Grammar has the potential to account in a formal way for more than most other theories. What I wrestle with is the boundary between language and logic. Hamish. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-432-1101630140-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Nov 28 03:47:04 2004 Received: from n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iAS9kwCK006450 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:46:59 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.51 ([66.94.237.51]) by bayeschecker for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:47:03 CST Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2004 08:22:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.197] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2004 08:22:21 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75124 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2004 08:22:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2004 08:22:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2004 08:22:19 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id iAS9ktCK006430 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:46:55 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS9kt5q006427 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:46:55 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <41A99E8F.mail4D01HKKAG@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:46:55 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] more imp2c fun... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1543 I don't know if this is of interest to anyone other than me (or possibly Hamish), but if anyone cares, I've just finished a translation of an early version of layout (I think a PDP9/15 source, though maybe it came from the early days of EMAS; it has numeric labels and uses "%printtext") to C. Before: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/new-gt-imp/TESTS/layout.imp.html After: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/utils/new-gt-imp/TESTS/layout.c.html The translator is not 100% finished yet, but the amout of manual fixup required is getting less; this one needed about 15 minutes of tweaking. The grammar I'm using started off as Peter Stephen's Imp80 grammar but it is being slowly bastardized as I'm finding Imp77 features, Imp15 features, and even old pre-Imp80 EMAS imp features that I can add to the grammar. (I was particularly pleased a couple of nights ago when I managed to work out how to add "%record fred(fredfm)" as well as the more modern "%record (fredfm) fred" style...) However having spent about 7 full days of coding on this translator now, I'm wishing I had another holiday coming up, because having got it this far I've found all the design flaws I made early on, and would love to do it again but properly this time! Probably not going to happen... My biggest mistake was using an existing grammar and not rewriting it from scratch - turns out the grammar doesn't really lend itself well to regurgitating the program as source... its main design criterion was clearly to avoid backtracking at all costs, something that with fast systems nowadays I'ld be willing to trade off against a simpler phrase structure... You may be interested to note the use of at least one non-standard extension to C which makes the translation a lot easier than it would otherwise have been - GCC allows nested procedures with the same semantics as Imp. In fact GCC has *many* non-standard extensions all of which combine to make C almost as usable as Imp was. It does, however, still have a ways to come with run-time checks and diagnostics. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-433-1102595569-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Dec 9 08:10:15 2004 Received: from n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iB9EAACK019372 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:10:11 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.44 ([66.94.237.44]) by bayeschecker for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:10:14 CST Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 12:32:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.27] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 12:32:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27707 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 12:32:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 12:32:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 12:32:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 12:32:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 12:32:46 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.50 From: "Gordon Hughes" X-Originating-IP: 194.223.199.120 X-Yahoo-Profile: hotjgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 12:32:45 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] The origins of Imp Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1817 My attention was drawn to this web site today: http://people.ku.edu/~nkinners/LangList/Extras/langlist.htm If you look up Imp, the 4th language called Imp is "ours". It claims to have been developed from Mercury Autocode, I had always believed that it was derived from Atlas Autocode. Perhaps some of the people who have a better grasp of the history (through being there) may want to give him a more complete and accurate entry for Edinburgh Imp. best regards Gordon Hughes ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-434-1102633391-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Dec 9 18:31:10 2004 Received: from n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iBA0V2CK032010 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:31:03 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.50 ([66.94.237.50]) by bayeschecker for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 18:31:09 CST Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 23:03:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.157] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 23:03:12 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89342 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 23:03:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 23:03:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 23:03:04 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id iBA0UgCM031972; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:30:42 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB9NUZHL022700; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:30:35 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <41B8E01B.mailE4421QDY7@gtoal.com> References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 17:30:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] The origins of Imp Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1833 I tried to get that list fixed a couple of years back but couldn't locate an active maintainer who would answer email. Maybe this is the guy. I believe this misinformation came from the FOLDOC database which I have been trying to get fixed for years but my updates never seem to get published. ( http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?IMProved+Mercury+autocode ) I'll drop him a line. There's two other sites which are improving, but still not perfect: http://hopl.murdoch.edu.au/showlanguage.prx?exp=2113&language=IMP - the guy who runs that one swears he has a definitive reference to Mercury Autocode but hasn't produced it yet, and won't change the entry on my word alone. (he's on this list so maybe someone older than me can tell him defiitively where the name comes from - I was always told it was "Systems IMPlementation Language".) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_IMP_programming_language ( and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATLAS_Autocode ) which is getting better on account of I have been editing it myself - and I recommend others make their contributions too. Of course, our own Wiki is the best source of information to refer people to, and getting better all the time. I formatted a lot of my scans for the web a few weeks ago and added them to the site. http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/Imp http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/Imp77 http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/Imp80 http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/DJRSkimp http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/AtlasAutocode You know, it wasn't until I got involved in this project that I realised how much Imp was basically just a marginally improved Atlas Autocode. In fact there is very little difference between AA and the early Imp compilers such as the Pdp9, the early EMAS Imp, or DJR's Skimp. (the main differences being features that were removed rather than added!) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-435-1102637116-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Dec 9 19:33:14 2004 Received: from n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iBA1X9CK009198 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 19:33:10 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.48 ([66.94.237.48]) by bayeschecker for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 19:33:14 CST Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2004 00:05:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.97] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2004 00:05:18 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7420 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2004 00:05:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2004 00:05:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp807.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.12.197) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2004 00:05:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.0.1.2?) (g7awz@btinternet.com@217.42.208.20 with plain) by smtp807.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2004 00:05:11 -0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <41B8E01B.mailE4421QDY7@gtoal.com> References: <41B8E01B.mailE4421QDY7@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.12.197 From: Harry Whitfield X-Yahoo-Profile: g6auc MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:04:56 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] The origins of Imp Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1834 The first reference to IMP that I have found is in a document dated 27.6.66, which was attached to the Report to the Management Committee EMAP/41.5/0001 dated 30/6/66. This was the first EMAP report. It is mentioned in the Documentation Schedule (c) Implementaion language specification : 1.10.66. As I recall, the specification was prepared by David Rees, who was the principal designer of the IMP language. The language was a variant of Atlas Autocode, and the first compilers were based on our KDF9 Atlas Autocode compilers. Initially we were concerned to have a version which used 32-bit integers to match System 4/75 rather than the 48-bit words of the Atlas. Mercury Autocode was an earlier and very simple autocode which I first used on the University of London Mercury computer in the late fifties, and at ICI Wilton in 1962/63. I have not been able to find a copy of the first IMP specification. Perhaps David Rees still has a copy. He will certainly remember more of the history. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, School of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-436-1104198221-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 01:24:13 2004 Received: from n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iBS7O7Fu012813 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.38 ([66.94.237.38]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:24:12 CST Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 01:43:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 01:43:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46129 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 01:43:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 01:43:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 01:43:39 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id iBS3FuFu004527; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:15:56 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBS2jsCA032318; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:45:54 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <41D0C8E2.mailMIP28RXQX@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:45:54 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] some more finds Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2428 I have borrowed an American model BBC Micro from a gentleman over here (via the 'classic computers' mailing list) and am in the process of going through a large pile of 5.25" floppies looking for things I may have saved to disk in the 80's. So far I have found Lee Smith's source of the Departmental report on Ecce, plus Hamish's later rewrite (of the line ecce manual, not vecce which we already have); and a big surprise - I had a copy of the source of Richard Marshall's "IE" editor and didn't even know it. There will undoubtedly be more. Meanwhile I am struggling to find the correct wiring of a BBC<->PC cable which I'll be soldering in the morning. Maybe I'll finally get some use out of the veroboard kit I bought some years ago. (Same as the kits Fred made for CS3/4 projects. I saw it at Fry's electronic superstore and felt nostalgic...) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-437-1104231060-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 10:24:11 2004 Received: from n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iBSGO2Fu011492 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:24:03 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.36 ([66.94.237.36]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:24:11 CST Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 10:51:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 10:51:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10610 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 10:50:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 10:50:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.12.201) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 10:50:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.0.1.2?) (g7awz@btinternet.com@217.42.172.22 with plain) by smtp811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 10:50:51 -0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <41D0C8E2.mailMIP28RXQX@gtoal.com> References: <41D0C8E2.mailMIP28RXQX@gtoal.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.12.201 From: Harry Whitfield X-Yahoo-Profile: g6auc MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:50:45 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] some more finds Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2455 >Meanwhile I am struggling to find the correct wiring of a BBC<->PC cable >which I'll be soldering in the morning. Maybe I'll finally get some use >out of the veroboard kit I bought some years ago. (Same as the kits >Fred made for CS3/4 projects. I saw it at Fry's electronic superstore >and felt nostalgic...) > >Graham In the late 80s and early 90s, I had a BBC-B linked to my Mac SE/30. I've attached two JPEGs, one of which gives the wiring of the BBC Micro to Macintosh link, and the other, information on 9-pin and 25-pin DB connectors. From these you can deduce the BBC-B to PC cable required. The diagrams are from a HyperCard stack I made 15 years ago, which still runs in Classic mode on my iBook G4. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, School of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/harry.whitfield [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-438-1104245034-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 14:12:56 2004 Received: from n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id iBSKCnFu016277 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:12:50 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.38 ([66.94.237.38]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:12:55 CST Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 14:43:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.156] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2004 14:43:54 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24038 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 14:43:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2004 14:43:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.173) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 14:43:52 -0000 Received: from user-8144.l5.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk ([84.66.31.208] helo=MYCOMPUTER) by cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.41) id 1CjIZj-0000H1-FQ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:43:51 +0000 Message-ID: <000c01c4eceb$a35bab20$d01f4254@MYCOMPUTER> To: Cc: References: <41D0C8E2.mailMIP28RXQX@gtoal.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.92.195.173 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:43:47 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] some more finds Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2463 Graham, Sorry that I have been distracted by family matters in the latter part of 2004, but just to express my appreciation of your initiative and perseverance on the Edinburgh Computer History project. Last year, I offered to host a reunion in Edinburgh for former CS Department folks. One or two responded positively, but to quote Sid Michaelson, I have no wish to fill a much needed gap. The offer remains open for 2005. Let me know if any of you are interested. Hamish ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/9rHolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-440-1107883070-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 11:17:55 2005 Received: from n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id j18HHoQ3011472 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:17:51 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.36 ([66.94.237.36]) by bayeschecker for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:17:55 CST Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2005 17:17:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.27] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2005 17:17:50 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36376 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2005 17:17:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Feb 2005 17:17:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 2005 17:17:48 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id j18HHjQ3011460; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:17:45 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18HHjb1011459; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:17:45 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <4208F439.mail8F511SXIC@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:17:45 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] some interest in a talk... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 509 I noticed this today: http://compsoc.tardis.ed.ac.uk/Events The computer society mentions at the foot of their page that a possible idea for an event this year would be a talk from us. Unfortunately my voice doesn't carry that far, and I never was much of a public speaker anyway (though if anyone remembers my 4th year dissertation disaster, I'ld like to put on record that I've considerably improved since then ;-) ) Names that spring to mind as possible speakers... Hamish? Peter Stephens? DJR? Any interest in contacting compsoc and volunteering? Graham Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-441-1108152720-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 14:12:06 2005 Received: from n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id j1BKC1Q3018912 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:12:02 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.16 ([66.94.237.16]) by bayeschecker for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:12:05 CST Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2005 20:12:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2005 20:12:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email Received: (qmail 73264 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2005 20:11:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Feb 2005 20:11:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 2005 20:11:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2005 20:11:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2005 20:11:59 -0000 X-Sender: jack_ponton@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78149 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2005 16:21:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Feb 2005 16:21:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 2005 16:21:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2005 16:21:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.83] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2005 16:21:24 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 From: "jack_ponton" X-Originating-IP: 129.215.214.103 X-Yahoo-Profile: jack_ponton X-eGroups-Approved-By: graham_toal via web; 11 Feb 2005 20:11:57 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:21:20 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] The origins of Imp Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 708 I've just joined the group. I was one of the early users through the Computer Unit before it split into ERCC and Computer Science when paper tapes used to be sent to Manchester and Newcastle. I also used the CS PDP8, but started programming in Sirius autocode on Heriot-Watt's Ferranti Sirius Harry, I didn't realize that you were yet another person with an old ICI connection. I'm trying to see if there are any Mercury autocode programs still in existence. I know that Roger Fletcher at Dundee had some for distillation modelling that he did (yes, for ICI...) but haven't heard from him and I fear he may have chucked them out when he prepared to retire. I don't suppose you have anything still? I should have a copy of `IMP for KDF9' which describes the test version, I seem to remember without real artithmetic, which went on KDF9 before the System 4 arrived. I still have quite a lot of IMP programs from my EMAS archive, back to about 1992 if Graham wants something else to try his translator on. Jack Ponton, EU Chemical Engineering --- In edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, Harry Whitfield wrote: > The first reference to IMP that I have found is in a document dated > 27.6.66, which was attached to the Report to the Management Committee > EMAP/41.5/0001 dated 30/6/66. This was the first EMAP report. > > It is mentioned in the Documentation Schedule > > (c) Implementaion language specification : 1.10.66. > > As I recall, the specification was prepared by David Rees, who was > the principal designer of the IMP language. > > The language was a variant of Atlas Autocode, and the first compilers > were based on our KDF9 Atlas Autocode compilers. Initially we were > concerned to have a version which used 32-bit integers to match > System 4/75 rather than the 48-bit words of the Atlas. > > Mercury Autocode was an earlier and very simple autocode which I > first used on the University of London Mercury computer in the late > fifties, and at ICI Wilton in 1962/63. > > I have not been able to find a copy of the first IMP specification. > Perhaps David Rees still has a copy. He will certainly remember more > of the history. > > Harry. > -- > Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, School of Computing Science, > University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. > http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/harry.whitfield Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-442-1108157506-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 15:34:52 2005 Received: from n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id j1BLYfQ3030603 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:34:44 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.16 ([66.94.237.16]) by bayeschecker for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:34:52 CST Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2005 21:31:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.192] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Feb 2005 21:31:46 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9906 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2005 21:31:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Feb 2005 21:31:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp808.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.12.198) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 2005 21:31:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.0.1.2?) (g7awz@btinternet.com@217.42.208.11 with plain) by smtp808.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 2005 21:31:42 -0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.12.198 From: Harry Whitfield X-Yahoo-Profile: g6auc MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:31:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] The origins of Imp Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 716 Jack, >Harry, I didn't realize that you were yet another person >with an old ICI connection. I'm trying to see if there >are any Mercury autocode programs still in existence. > >I don't suppose you have anything still? > >Jack Ponton, EU Chemical Engineering I do have two or three programs in Mercury Autocode in my D.I.C. dissertation. One plots contours on the teletype printer. The others, which I did with Peter Goldsmith, compute cumulative sum chart parameters. I did this work with George Barnard, and that was when I first met Ewan Page. Later, when I was at ICI Wilton, I met Ewan again, and later became his successor at Newcastle. I don't have anything from my time with the MRC Statistical Research Unit.(I worked mainly on taxonomy programs in Mercury Autocode with a lot of embedded assembly code.) I did a lot of taxonomy work for Richard (now Sir Richard) Doll. I occasionally see him on TV - he's looks well and is still as sharp as ever. And I don't have anything from my time at ICI Wilton, where I worked mainly on process investigation with Ian Woodburn, who later went to Lancaster. Some of our work followed on from work done by Jeremy Bray on plant modelling and control. That was before he went into politics. I also worked for Harry Robertson, and did some work on digital filters in connection with the Fleetwood process control computers. My section boss at ICI Wilton was Tommy Thomas, who later came to Edinburgh as Director of the ERCC in 1966(?). I moved to Edinburgh in 1963 as a Senior Research Fellow in the English Language Research Unit, where I worked with Jimmy Thorne, Paul Bratley and later with Hamish Dewar. Paul and I soon got involved in writing the KDF9 AA compiler, so that we could get on with our linguistic work - modelling English grammar and writing parsers. We were joined by David Rees and Peter Schofield. I never got back to the linguistic work and joined the Computer Unit under Sydney Michaelson. I already knew Sydney, who was one of my lecturers at Imperial College. In fact, he taught me to program. When ERCC was formed, I stayed with the Computer Science Department, but, by then, we were already starting the project that produced EMAS. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, School of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/harry.whitfield Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-443-1108410032-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 13:40:39 2005 Received: from n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id j1EJeXQ3026341 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:40:34 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.16 ([66.94.237.16]) by bayeschecker for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:40:38 CST Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Feb 2005 19:40:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.31] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Feb 2005 19:40:32 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: jack_ponton@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76832 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2005 19:40:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Feb 2005 19:40:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Feb 2005 19:40:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Feb 2005 19:40:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.83] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Feb 2005 19:40:31 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 From: "jack_ponton" X-Originating-IP: 129.215.214.103 X-Yahoo-Profile: jack_ponton MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:40:28 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] The origins of Imp Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 805 Harry, Many thanks for your reply. 1. Programs. I'd appreciate a copy of a couple of your Mercury programs since I don't actually have any for this machine. Perhaps the tty plot and one other? If you can email me direct j.ponton@ed.ac.uk we can arrange the best way of transmitting these. Roger Fletcher (see also below) does still have his ex-ICI program. and is sending me a listing. He says its in K-autocode which he believes was a derivative of Mercury autocode for the KDF 9. I have managed to find a couple of Sirius autocode programs for which I'm looking at trying to construct an interpreter. the language was pretty rudimentary and I do still have the manual. 2. People. My ex-ICI computer contacts until Tommy came up here were mostly from CIRL - Roger Fletcher worked with them as a consultant and Bill Johns worked there until he left for ETH Zurich. I don't know if you encountered either of them. The Wilton people I knew were mostly on the actual process side, though the name Harry Robertson rings a bell. The other ex ICI person who came through Tommy was of course Peter Stevens, who I met again the other day at a retirement do for Andrew McKendrick of ERCC. I still have quite a few of the early manuals and other documentation which has your name on it! Jack --- In edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com, Harry Whitfield wrote: > I do have two or three programs in Mercury Autocode in my D.I.C. dissertation. > One plots contours on the teletype printer. The others, which I did > with Peter Goldsmith, compute cumulative sum chart parameters. I did > this work with George Barnard, and that was when I first met Ewan > Page. Later, when I was at ICI Wilton, I met Ewan again, and later > became his successor at Newcastle. > > I don't have anything from my time with the MRC Statistical Research > Unit.(I worked mainly on taxonomy programs in Mercury Autocode with a > lot of embedded assembly code.) I did a lot of taxonomy work for > Richard (now Sir Richard) Doll. I occasionally see him on TV - he's > looks well and is still as sharp as ever. > > And I don't have anything from my time at ICI Wilton, where I worked > mainly on process investigation with Ian Woodburn, who later went to > Lancaster. Some of our work followed on from work done by Jeremy Bray > on plant modelling and control. That was before he went into > politics. I also worked for Harry Robertson, and did some work on > digital filters in connection with the Fleetwood process control > computers. > > My section boss at ICI Wilton was Tommy Thomas, who later came to > Edinburgh as Director of the ERCC in 1966(?). > > I moved to Edinburgh in 1963 as a Senior Research Fellow in the > English Language Research Unit, where I worked with Jimmy Thorne, > Paul Bratley and later with Hamish Dewar. Paul and I soon got > involved in writing the KDF9 AA compiler, so that we could get on > with our linguistic work - modelling English grammar and writing > parsers. We were joined by David Rees and Peter Schofield. I never > got back to the linguistic work and joined the Computer Unit under > Sydney Michaelson. I already knew Sydney, who was one of my lecturers > at Imperial College. In fact, he taught me to program. When ERCC was > formed, I stayed with the Computer Science Department, but, by then, > we were already starting the project that produced EMAS. > > Harry. > -- > Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, School of Computing Science, > University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. > http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/harry.whitfield Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-444-1109966211-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 13:56:58 2005 Received: from n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id j24Jup0m017706 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:56:52 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.46 ([66.94.237.46]) by bayeschecker for ; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:56:58 CST DomainKey-Signature: Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Mar 2005 19:56:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.192] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Mar 2005 19:56:51 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71078 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2005 19:56:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Mar 2005 19:56:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2005 19:56:49 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id j24Juh0m017687 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:56:43 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24JuhvP017686 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:56:43 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <4228BD7B.mailBF01LB4OE@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 24.173.85.38 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:56:43 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Introducing a new member Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1430 Folks, we have an enthusiastic and prolific new member of our group, Brian Foley, who was a relatively recent MSc student at Edinburgh. (Actually that's not 100% accurate; he joined the mailing list over a year ago, but he's recently taken a much more active interest) He initially contacted me to pass on some OCR work he had done on some scans from the archive, but after chatting for a couple of days it turns out he is very interested in the Fred Machines and wants to contribute an emulation of the systems to our project. I thought an early heads up might be in order for folks who still use APMs (Hamish for one; anyone else???) and also to ask if anyone has any APM documentation that we don't have on record yet (JHB?) Brian lists various documents in the appendix to his thesis but doesn't have copies himself. (See http://www.compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~bfoley/papers/MSc%20thesis.pdf ) It would be cool to drag Fred back in to this project, though it may be hard to contact him - and I suspect he has other priorities nowdays than reliving his youth. No, strike that, reliving his youth has always been Fred's priority ;-) (just kidding, pal) Also JGH has a tape of Fred's with some circuit design documentation and a few demo program sources (anyone remember his "sparkle in the rain" album cover? Turns out Brian had a photo of this and several of the other demos) I remembered clearly Asteroids on the pdp9/15s but I had completely forgotten that it had also been ported to the APM. (or was that a rewrite?) On a related note, what's the current situation with respect to getting hold of some of the APM and filestore backups? I remember when we asked about this several years ago, GDMR was the archivist and he was taking his DPR duties quite seriously, but is there some way we can be selective and identify what is on the CDs and just request items that there is no contention over; or identify the authors and ask them individually? (which we did very successfully with the EMAS archives). I am quite happy to do the legwork but without even a directory listing to know what is on the backups I wouldn't know who to ask for what. Is George still the person to contact? Anyway, I'ld like to pipe a somewhat belated "welcome aboard" to Brian Foley and I think he is going to be a great addition to our team. Graham PS Brian also did a fine job of OCR'ing PSR's thesis. Which still reads well after all these years. http://www.compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~bfoley/edhist/psrthesis.html Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-445-1110494373-gtoal=gtoal.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 16:39:41 2005 Received: from n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with SMTP id j2AMdY0m012020 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:39:36 -0600 Received: from 66.94.237.24 ([66.94.237.24]) by bayeschecker for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:39:40 CST DomainKey-Signature: Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2005 22:39:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.199] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Mar 2005 22:39:34 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89459 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2005 22:39:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Mar 2005 22:39:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gtoal.com) (24.173.85.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Mar 2005 22:39:31 -0000 Received: from pizzabox.gtoal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id j2AMdT0m012001; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:39:29 -0600 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by pizzabox.gtoal.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AMdTr7011999; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:39:29 -0600 Sender: gtoal@gtoal.com To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: gtoal@pizzabox.gtoal.com Message-ID: <4230CCA0.mail6W61BGY4Q@gtoal.com> User-Agent: nail 10.5 4/27/03 X-Originating-IP: 24.173.85.38 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:39:28 -0600 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] More news! Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1680 A few pieces of news: 1) I have a constructive dialogue going with GDMR and JHB to try to break the logjam over access to APM and Vax backups, and am getting quite an education into the new UK laws to boot. 2) GDMR pointed me at the sources of the APM-based filestore, which I was not aware were online, and included in the source code was this document which decribes the file servers, starting with the first: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/APM-filestore/FS.1976/FSDOC.LAY.html - I'm very pleased to have found that. (Now all we need is some Interdata code, which we may get from scanning a paper listing; more on that later) 3) Brian Foley has turned out another OCR'd doc (currently in progress, but clearly 95% done): http://frink.ucg.ie/~bfoley/edhist/skimp_ii.txt If we take the source code we have for skimp, one version of which is *very* close to the one in the manual, and add that to the OCR of the text after a little trivial editing, we should have pretty much the complete manual. By the way I'll be stealing that one for my "Compilers101" mailing list. (DJR: did I ever mention that list to you? If you're not scunnered with compilers yet, you'ld be very welcome. As would Peter Stephens and Hamish... (PSR & RWT are already members) You can check it out here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compilers101/ - I even wrote a little demo compiler to show the basics of ASTs: http://www.gtoal.com/software/CompilersOneOhOne ... try not to be too harsh on me - the kiddies on that list actually think I know something about compilers - it's amazing the respect that simply growing old gets you ;-) But it would be nice to have a few more 'real' compiler writers on the mailing list) 4) I have prototyped (as in "write one to throw away then write it again more neatly") a new screen editor based on Ecce which I call "Vide". You might want to give it a look-see (yuk yuk). The prototype deliberately does not allow files to be saved; I don't want people *using* this until it is a) fully designed; and b) considerably more robust. This is just a test of a different interface paradigm. Don't expect to see a clone of vecce. http://www.gtoal.com/software/EditorsOneOhOne (ROUGH draft docs) http://www.gtoal.com/vide/ (source & linux binary.) As you'll see from the README I've been swapping notes on this project with Rainer - who is died-in-the-wool command-line, with a mild concession to Vecce; so if I can convince him, I can convince anyone. However Rainer has dropped off the map in the last month - probably off galavanting in exotic climes - so I thought I would throw this out to y'all (as we say here in Tejas) for comments. 5) JHB has offered to ship the PDP11 disk with GUTS on it. I will find someone with a PDP11 who can read it. *Really* looking forward to this one. I actually used GUTS for a (very) short time while I worked at the Wave Tank (long story...) and rather liked it. Graham Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/