From sentto-2719433-0-980375831-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Wed Jan 24 16:04:35 2001 Received: from fj.egroups.com (fj.egroups.com [64.211.240.231]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10273 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:04:28 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-0-980375831-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2001 22:37:15 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_1_2); 24 Jan 2001 22:37:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 36730 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2001 22:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2001 22:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Jan 2001 22:21:52 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA09843 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:48:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101242148.PAA09843@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:48:55 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Welcome to the Edinburgh Computer History project Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO In the last year or so, the cost of large hard disks has plummeted - here in the US I can buy an 80Gb drive for $300. We are living in an era where from now on, almost every human endeavor is going to be recorded for posterity. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case in the early days when computers were first invented, up to about the 1980's. Programs which were written in that era tended not to be preserved online as a system went from one hard drive to the next. Much of what was written in the early days was backup up to 'archival' media, and a whole lot of that is lost or no longer readable. I myself had a very harrowing experience just recently when trying to recover software from 600 ten-year-old floppies, and they were in a format that is still in use. I lost about 5% of them. This prompted me to realise that we really have a very narrow window indeed in which we can save our computing heritage. And Edinburgh is truly responsible for some great computing heritage - our mistake at the time was that we did not subscribe to the American style 'publish or perish' ethic, and we did not publicise much of what we did. With the result that anyone in the future wanting to know what the significant history of computing was, will rely on books such as Steven Levy's "Hackers" and will come away thinking that only MIT and a few other US universities were the only pioneers. So... I would like for us to save the pioneering work done at Edinburgh for posterity. Even if it is not truly appreciated right now, I believe it will be one day; but for now simply saving everything we can has to be a top priority. This project will dedicate a web site for every piece of source code from Edinburgh's past that anyone can find. As I said above - disk space is cheap now. I believe we can save everything that was ever written in Edinburg on one disk here. Also I am personally willing to burn CDs of the archive for any Edinburgh people who want to save a peronal copy, more or less as a distributed backup mechanism! So... get out there, approach your lecturers, friends - anyone who remembers all the good work (and even the bad!) that was done at EUCS and ERCC, and help start this project off by identifying our lost history; then (and in parallel to as much extent as possible) we'll start collecting those sources and hosting them on our archive site. The site is currently housed at http://www.gtoal.com/history/ - just to get it going. I will move it to a better machine, and probably it's own domain, once we get started. Thank you to everyone who participates in this project. I will be handling as much on-line coordination as I can - feel free to email me privately if you want, but I'd prefer that all communication was via this mailing list so we can be 100% 'open skies' as the Americans say. I have opened up the mailing list archives to non-members so you can point your colleagues at it to check out what we're doing and see if they want to join us. Gordon Brebner will be coordinating people on the ground in Edinburgh, for instance if someone needs access to old tapes or disks stored in the Computer Science department. Let's do it! Graham Toal To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-1-980454322-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Jan 25 13:52:35 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14204 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:52:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-1-980454322-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2001 20:25:23 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2); 25 Jan 2001 20:25:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 26761 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2001 19:58:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Jan 2001 19:58:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Jan 2001 19:58:10 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA13117 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:25:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101251925.NAA13117@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:25:10 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] New web address; progress so far. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thanks to GDMR, the web page is now available as http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/ This will be the permanent address from now, on. Let's forget the other one ever existed. (That'll give me the option of moving it to another machine sometime. It's still actually housed at the same place but that machine didn't have enough capacity for the archive. I plan to build a new dedicated machine for that, with an 80Gb drive and a CD burner.) Although no-one has posted to the list here, we *have* received several very helpful emails from people who have copies of old software or listings. I will summarize and post them here after work tonight. (Remember I'm 6hrs earlier in the day than most of you - Texas time) This project is clearly going to work. I am very relieved, I thought it was going to be difficult getting it started but everyone is very enthusiastic! I have identified one immediate need for volunteers - a lot of what has been found is on paper. It is clearly going to be way too much for the one volunteer scanner we already have (IAY). It would be really good if we could drum up some interest from a number of students to share the work of scanning old documents. 5 to 10 people in a pool would be a great help. (I suggest that sort of number because we know that some people will lose interest or be too busy etc - we need enough extra capacity to ensure there's always 3 or 4 people available at any time) If someone in Edinburgh could ask around the CS students, that would be appreciated. All they need is access to a scanner. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-2-980465735-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Jan 25 17:04:23 2001 Received: from fg.egroups.com (fg.egroups.com [208.50.144.70]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20809 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:04:21 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-2-980465735-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2001 23:37:19 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2); 25 Jan 2001 23:35:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 91898 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2001 23:12:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Jan 2001 23:12:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cj.egroups.com) (10.1.2.82) by mta2 with SMTP; 25 Jan 2001 23:12:33 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: jgh@cableinet.co.uk Received: from [10.1.2.230] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2001 23:12:33 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Message-ID: <94qbs1+97i2@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.30.112.1 From: "Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:12:01 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Some Input from JGH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > EDWIN > task: Contact JGH. Who apparently is the world's last IMP user. > See what else he has... I am sure that I am not the last, possibly the last to admit it! I think that I have the full sources of the latest version of EDWIN somewhere. Other programs which I still use/have: ECCE - RWT's port to Unix, only as SunOS binary. VECCE - PMcL and ADC after HMD, VMS source and binary. NLINES - NR's VMS command FILES - GDMR VMS command CLEAN - GDMR VMS command imp - 3L SunOS binary version (this is commercial and owned by CGI) IMP - 3L VMS binary version (this is commercial and owned by CGI) Shapesmith - ES2/LL binary version (commercial and owned by CGI) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-3-980472971-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Jan 25 19:03:32 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25275 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:03:31 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-3-980472971-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 01:36:29 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2); 26 Jan 2001 01:36:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 36193 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 01:10:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 01:10:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 01:10:17 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA24440 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:37:17 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101260037.SAA24440@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:37:17 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Some Input from JGH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > EDWIN > > task: Contact JGH. Who apparently is the world's last IMP user. > > See what else he has... > > I am sure that I am not the last, possibly the last to admit it! > > I think that I have the full sources of the latest version of > EDWIN somewhere. Great. I'll contact you when our ftp archive is online. Or if you have somewhere on your own system to put them (public ftp or http) then I can pick them up myself when ready. > Other programs which I still use/have: > > ECCE - RWT's port to Unix, only as SunOS binary. > VECCE - PMcL and ADC after HMD, VMS source and binary. > NLINES - NR's VMS command > FILES - GDMR VMS command > CLEAN - GDMR VMS command > > imp - 3L SunOS binary version (this is commercial and owned by CGI) > IMP - 3L VMS binary version (this is commercial and owned by CGI) > Shapesmith - ES2/LL binary version (commercial and owned by CGI) OK, we'd better set some ground rules so that we're not misinterpreted by anyone: I do *not* want to archive any commercial sources of anything that can still be considered a product. Firstly, it's illegal; secondly, it implies the owners still have the sources and maintain them themselves - meaning it must be pretty recent software, and not in danger of being lost. (Caveat: if you know the copyright holders and they give permission to release sources, that's a different issue) Rather than looking for something like a current Sparc or Vax Imp compiler, what we need to preserve are old ones for machines that are no longer in use, such as a PDP8 or an Interdata, or the EMAS compilers. (If this project is still in existence many years from now, we'll get those ancient Sparc and Vax programs after the machines no longer exist ;-) ) Also, unless anyone is planning to do a hardware emulation, I don't really see a point in preserving old binaries at this point. That may change in the future, but if so it will be a different project. (If anyone does take on any hardware emulations, some bootstrap binaries may be essential. Which reminds me, it would be nice to have a historical record of things like the bootstrap switch sequences for the Interdatas and the PDP9/15! I think we may find that in an old copy of 'Noddy goes to the Machine Halls'...) [Does anyone remember a student project from Dave who hacked the EMAS Imp compiler to embed source in the binaries, with the intention that code would never 'go stiff' again? That was innovative. It didn't catch on, but it was a good idea.] The other things you mentioned such as your Edwin and VECCE are ideal candidates for the archive and I'll be calling on you in a few days to arrange pickup! Thanks. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-4-980501749-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 03:02:51 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA01961 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 03:02:50 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-4-980501749-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 09:35:50 -0000 X-Sender: gordon@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 09:35:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 71349 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 09:35:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 09:35:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta3 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 10:36:52 -0000 Received: from tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.36]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id JAA04432 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:35:45 GMT Received: (from gordon@localhost) by tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA23528; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:35:45 GMT Message-ID: <14961.17649.133468.122005@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200101251925.NAA13117@admin.vt.com> References: <200101251925.NAA13117@admin.vt.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid From: Gordon Brebner MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:35:45 +0000 (GMT) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] New web address; progress so far. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I have identified one immediate need for volunteers - a lot of what has > been found is on paper. It is clearly going to be way too much for the > one volunteer scanner we already have (IAY). It would be really good > if we could drum up some interest from a number of students to share the > work of scanning old documents. 5 to 10 people in a pool would be a > great help. (I suggest that sort of number because we know that some > people will lose interest or be too busy etc - we need enough extra > capacity to ensure there's always 3 or 4 people available at any time) > If someone in Edinburgh could ask around the CS students, that would > be appreciated. All they need is access to a scanner. I've posted a message on the CS undergraduate newsgroup (eduni.dcs.undergrad) this morning, outlining the project, and asking for volunteers. The text follows, in case anyone is interested. Gordon. --- Current undergraduates might not be aware of it, but there is a long history of computer system building at Edinburgh, dating back to the foundation of the Computer Unit in 1963 by Sidney Michaelson. The Computer Unit bifurcated in 1966 in the academic-oriented Department of Computer Science (which evolved into part of today's Division of Informatics), and the service-oriented Edinburgh Regional Computing Centre, which evolved into today's Computing Services. >From 1963 until the late 1980s, there was extensive activity in implementing operating systems, compilers, other software tools, and building hardware. Undergraduates then would do practical work largely using systems software written at Edinburgh, a situation only changed by the rise of Unix, and now Linux. A group of Edinburgh graduates has now initiated a project to ensure that the memory of this era is preserved by, in the first instance, attempting to collect a definitive collection of source code and documentation for the various Edinburgh products. More details of this are at: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk Aside from the fact that this might be of interest to today's undergraduates, I invite active participation in one particular respect. Much of the material people have is on paper, so there is a need to scan it into an electronic form for storage in the new repository. The project is keen for any students who possess scanners for their own PCs, to volunteer to assist in the scanning process. No particular time commitment is required, just a willingness to help when able. If you are interested, see the above web page, which has details of a new mailing list associated with the project. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-5-980511523-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 05:45:47 2001 Received: from mk.egroups.com (mk.egroups.com [208.50.144.76]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA05683 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 05:45:46 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-5-980511523-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 12:18:44 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 12:18:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 69701 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 12:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 12:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot3.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.51) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 12:18:38 -0000 Received: from [192.100.135.7] (black48.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.177]) by cheviot3.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f0QCIXH18536; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:18:34 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 2.0 (cheviot3) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:18:29 +0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Documents about AA/IMP/EMAS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Edinburgh History -- Documents held by Harry Whitfield -------------------------------------------------------- ATLAS AUTOCODE FOR KDF9 ----------------------- ATLAS AUTOCODE COMPILER FOR KDF9 - COMPUTER UNIT REPORT 4 - 1st October 1965 AA DOCUMENTATION - Volumes 1, 2 and 3 - Describe the structure of the (KDF9) AA Compiler. Also Version I and Version K source listings. IMP --- IMP 75 PRELIMINARY REFERENCE MANUAL, I.N.5 - 15.9.69. PROGRAMMING IN IMP, EMAP/41.5/0026, Revised 1st October 1969. EMAS ---- EMAP Technical Committee Minutes EMAP/41.0/0001 to EMAP/41.0/0051 EMAP Technical Committee Reports EMAP/41.5/0001 to EMAP/41.5/0034 apart from the big manuals. EMAS (SYSTEM 4-75) HARDWARE SUMMARY. MULTI-ACCESS SYSTEM MANUAL SYSTEM 4-75, 11/1/67 EMAS TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION 4-75/1: SCHEDULING -- EMAP/41.5/0013, 26/3/67. EMAS TYPICAL USER FACILITIES, I.N.2 - 20/9/67. EMAS PRELIMINARY TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION 4-75/6: STORAGE CONTROL -- 29/4/68 A Syntactic Macro Scheme, A.Freeman, June 1969. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS PRIMARY SUBSYSTEM REFERENCE MANUAL -- 1.5.70. EMAS PROVISIONAL SYSTEM MANUAL 1 August 1967. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS OPERATORS MANUAL, 22/1/70. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS REFERENCE MANUAL (EMAP/41.5/0028), July 1970. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS REFERENCE MANUAL, SEPTEMBER 1971 EMAS USER MANUAL, Preliminary Edition, April 1972. EMAS USER MANUAL, First Edition, October 1972. SYSTEM 4-75 EMAS SUBSYSTEM REFERENCE MANUAL, (Draft) May 1973. EMAS Reports 1 to 7, April 1974 - February 1975. These are reprints of papers published (mainly) in the Computer Journal. EMAS Operators Manual, First Edition, October 1976. EMAS User's Guide, December 1976. Note: Copies of many of the above documents should be in the DCS and/or ERCC archives. Other members of the EMAS team may have copies. There may even be machine readable copies of some. Reference copies of the EMAS source code and system were made in December 1970. These should have been kept. There were also paper tape copies made of the KDF9 AA and IMP compilers. Other versions of Edinburgh Software ------------------------------------ While I was at the University of Groningen (1972-1979), we ported a version of IMP onto our PDP11/40 and wrote a mini operating system called GUTS. We then ported IMP onto GUTS and later onto Unix. We also made a version of ECCE in Algol 60 for use on the CDC CYBER. We ported IMP onto the CYBER and students did a number of compiler projects for languages based on IMP. I have ported ECCE onto numerous systems over the years, most recently onto the Macintosh where I rewrote the whole program in Pascal. I also produced a BBEdit ECCE extension. I have Pascal source for these. I've copied this message to former colleagues at Groningen in the hope that they might like to fill in more detail. One of these also worked on modelling EMAS scheduling. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-6-980515298-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 06:48:41 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA07178 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:48:40 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-6-980515298-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 13:21:40 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 13:21:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 71149 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 13:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 13:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot3.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.51) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 13:21:34 -0000 Received: from [192.100.135.7] (black21.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.150]) by cheviot3.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f0QD3QH27200 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:03:26 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (Unverified) Message-Id: To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 2.0 (cheviot3) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:02:26 +0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Other Compilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO One of the first compilers written in Buccleuch Place was a music compiler for the new PDP8 by David Rees. If I remember correctly, this compiled up to four voices into an intermediate code, which was then interpreted and played by pulsing the loudspeaker of the PDP8. I think I wrote the interpreter/player. At the time, we made some tape recordings of our efforts. During the EMAS project, there was an IMP compiler developed which could measure the vagrancy of an executing program and then rearrange the code to reduce the number of page faults. The compiler on which this was based was abandoned, so this clever idea was never put into production. The IMP compilers (developed by PDS) which survived were based on the original AA/IMP compilers. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-7-980518824-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 07:48:38 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09053 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:48:37 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-7-980518824-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 14:21:36 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 14:20:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 39279 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 14:20:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 14:20:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 14:20:21 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA09005; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:47:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101261347.HAA09005@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:47:19 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Other Compilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thank you indeed for the information and for preserving so much old history. The leads about the dump of all EMAS sources and the KDF9 compiler are great - I really hope we manage to track them down. We would welcome the GUTS code and your ECCE ports - even though perhaps not strictly written at Edinburgh, they're definitely in direct lineage from what was done here. I do remember Ian Young having a copy of GUTS which he was running on a PDP11 at the Wave Power project. (By the way - I ported ECCE to BCPL and C myself - it really is easier than learning a new editor, isn't it? And still after 30 years more powerful and succint than current editors...) We'll be in touch once we have a fileserver up, to get what you have as online material. We'll probably wait quite some time over the manuals you have; it's going to take a *long* time to scan what we've found already, and as you note a lot of the manuals you have will be available locally and we should find those first. I truly appreciate your help, thank you. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-8-980519667-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 08:01:35 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA09490 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:01:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-8-980519667-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 14:34:32 -0000 X-Sender: gordon@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 14:34:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 76474 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 14:34:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 14:34:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 14:34:01 -0000 Received: from tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.36]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id OAA21340 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:33:55 GMT Received: (from gordon@localhost) by tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA24028; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:33:54 GMT Message-ID: <14961.35538.334758.506945@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid From: Gordon Brebner MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:33:54 +0000 (GMT) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Other Compilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > One of the first compilers written in Buccleuch Place was a music compiler for the new PDP8 by David Rees. If I remember correctly, this compiled up to four voices into an intermediate code, which was then interpreted and played by pulsing the loudspeaker of the PDP8. I think I wrote the interpreter/player. I've just mentioned this to David - he says that he's still got it! Gordon. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-9-980520860-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jan 26 08:21:35 2001 Received: from c9.egroups.com (c9.egroups.com [208.50.99.230]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA10234 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:21:34 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-9-980520860-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 14:54:23 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 26 Jan 2001 14:54:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 33894 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2001 14:52:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2001 14:52:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.43) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Jan 2001 14:52:47 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.108] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2001 14:52:41 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <94s2vn+s8tm@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.104.172.1 From: gtoal@vt.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:52:39 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Other Compilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Harry Whitfield wrote: > One of the first compilers written in Buccleuch Place was a music > compiler for the new PDP8 by David Rees. If I remember correctly, > this compiled up to four voices into an intermediate code, which was > then interpreted and played by pulsing the loudspeaker of the PDP8. > I think I wrote the interpreter/player. > > At the time, we made some tape recordings of our efforts. David still has this. I think he has it on paper tape, and if anyone knows of a working paper tape system still at Edinburgh where we can read in any old tapes we find, please let us know. This reminds me that Fred King also wrote a system just like this for the M6809 lab kits; in fact I think I remember that it was a deliberate clone of the PDP8 system. I do remember seeing this myself (I might even have worked on it a little). It had an ascii input language and included loops etc. Looked something like (F#GGAB)4 or whatever makes sense to those musically inclined. (Which counts me out) If we can save either of these programs, we should also save the input music files. Does anyone have Fred's email? I've lost touch with him. Graham PS I see the buyout of eGroups by Yahoo has finally made it into the web pages at last. Hope it wasn't too inconvenient for new members. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-10-980614563-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 10:23:01 2001 Received: from cj.egroups.com (cj.egroups.com [208.50.144.68]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18623 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:23:01 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-10-980614563-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Jan 2001 16:56:05 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 27 Jan 2001 16:56:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 19500 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2001 16:56:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Jan 2001 16:56:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Jan 2001 17:57:07 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA18619 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:22:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101271622.KAA18619@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:22:57 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] eGroups facilities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO There is a 'bookmarks' feature on the menu at the left in Yahoo Groups which any list member can add to. Feel free to use it for anything that is relevant to Edinburgh history. I've started it off with a couple of links that I've found recently. This server also has a file-upload facility which I haven't experimented with yet. It may be a convenient staging area for small file transfers (there's a 25Mb limit I think). There's also some sort of database facility, which may be a good place to start keeping track of items we've found. I'll try it out this weekend. I believe members can use any of these facilities. I've tried to open up this forum as much as I can. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980614563/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-11-980654984-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:36:41 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07137 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:36:40 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-11-980654984-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:09:45 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:09:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 19795 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 04:09:42 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07128 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:36:34 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280336.VAA07128@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:36:34 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] GDMR's info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO GDMR thinks there are some old "new" filestore backups around on 1/2" tape, and some VMS ones too. He may have paper listings of his filestore code (the version that ran on the VAX and the Fred-machines, and not either of Hamish's originals). One of my vacation jobs was to write a user interface to the filestore to replace one of the older ones (I think JGH's?). It was in service for some years. I may have that on paper. Can't remember what host it was for. Either VMS or the Interdatas. In terms of history I guess it was the equivalent of an FTP client and I suspect predates FTP. George wrote the comms part or the cubewar program I mentioned; he says Nick (I presume Rothwell) wrote the user interface. He also reminded me that I wrote an independent version of the EMAS Command Line Interpreter. (The EMAS equivalent of a Unix shell; I can't remember all what it did different from the EMAS one; I think the main thing was that it had macro expansion and aliases). I did find some paper listings from my student days recently but haven't yet gone through them all. It may be in there. I don't personally have *anything* on magnetic media from when I was an undergrad at Edinburgh as it predates personal computers. It wasn't particular interesting; I'd rather we found the real thing. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980654984/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-12-980655188-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:40:12 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07256 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:40:12 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-12-980655188-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:13:08 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 34909 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07231 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:39:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280339.VAA07231@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:39:59 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] DJR's info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO DJR wrote: > I just remembered I do have something machine readable - I have paper > tapes of the assembler source for my PDP8 music compiler which must > date from around 1966. The PDP8 itself is in storage in the Chambers > St. museum I think. Somebody should get it going - maybe Jimmy > Johnstone before he retires this summer! I second the latter sentiment with a proviso - we know we can't keep these old machines going for ever (my own year and Ian's year kept the 9/15 running for two years after the support budget for it ran out but even it eventually had to go. The power cost alone was too high) - so it would be great to get a machine like up up and running again just long enough to write an emulator and make sure it was a perfect match for the real thing. Then it would live on forever... (however this is not in the scope of our project) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980655188/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-13-980655482-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:44:58 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07418 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:44:57 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-13-980655482-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:18:02 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:18:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 68114 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:18:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:18:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 04:18:01 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07414 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:44:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280344.VAA07414@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:44:53 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] DJR's listings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I don't have anything machine readable but I have lots of printed > stuff that I've kept as souvenirs. It might be worth asking the (new) > EUCS how far back their archive tapes go, and also the DCS (as was). > I never lost a file with the ERCC, I remember, over about 20 years. > > I have got listings of some of the EMAS stuff I wrote in the early > 70's: Director 714 (30/6/72) and CEDRIC 703 (2/6/72) plus many of the > manuals we wrote at the time. I also have a listing of the last > EMAS2900 kernel I wrote, dated 26/2/80. > > The earliest stuff I have is `Computer Unit Report No. 2 : A Guide to > a Survey Program for Atlas', dated November 1965 (probably a unique > copy, by now)! I have asked David if he would approach the EUCS (ERCC) on our behalf. Chris Whitfield also mentioned that there was a reference dump done once of the completed EMAS system, which would be a great thing to find. I know I remember stories of the EMAS team boasting about how the complete sources could fit in a briefcase and I think there may indeed have been a briefcase at one time with a complete printout in it, for effect when giving talks. I wonder... :-) Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980655482/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-14-980656144-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:56:00 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07683 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:55:59 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-14-980656144-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:29:05 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:29:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 90073 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:29:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:29:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 05:30:08 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07679 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:55:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280355.VAA07679@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:55:56 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Gordon's info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > A quick look through my history box yielded, on paper: > 1. sources for all my Vax networking stuff > 2. EMAS and EMAS 2900 reference cards > 3. ISYS system documentation > 4. HAL 7502 manual, and 7502 "OS" software > 5. ISYS 80 manual, Filestore manual and HAL 70 manual > 6. ECSD LISP manual (Nick Shelness) > 7. Noddy Goes to the Machine Halls (Kathy, 78/79) > 8. Sticks & Stones manual (Luca) > 9. my CS4 operating system > 10. DEIMOS PDP-11 OS (by Brian Gilmore - now Director of EUCS) > 11. ISYS 70 source > 12. PDP-9/15 source > 13. a few bits of EMAS 2900 > There's other stuff, but those are the initial highlights. Some good stuff here. I had forgotten the model number of the ICL terminal. I'll update the web page appropriately. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980656145/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-15-980656348-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 21:59:23 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07752 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:59:22 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-15-980656348-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:32:29 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:32:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 99267 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 05:33:31 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA07748 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:59:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280359.VAA07748@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:59:19 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] More GDMR info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I have some of those on paper too. I've also found load of Fred-machine > documentation, some filestore documentation, and a printout of the > filestore source. And I've got some 1/2" tapes containing filestore > backups, which might have some useful stuff on them if we could manage to > read them off. > > I have a feeling that I put a load of things to the ERCC archive service > too at one point. I've no idea if they're still around... We *definitely* need to find out what survived from the ERCC EMAS tape days. Also who in the area can physically read old tapes. Of any description. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980656349/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-16-980657334-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 27 22:15:49 2001 Received: from mv.egroups.com (mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA08244 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:15:48 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-16-980657334-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jan 2001 04:48:55 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 28 Jan 2001 04:48:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 444 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2001 04:48:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jan 2001 04:48:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jan 2001 04:48:53 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA08237 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:15:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101280415.WAA08237@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:15:45 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Chris Whitfield's notes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I've lightly edited two emails from Chris Whitfield together, to summarize his recollections: > Things that spring to mind ... and I hope I still have m/c readables .... > > * PDP-8 imp syntax checker dating from when paper tapes were punched on > exceeding unreliable teletype 33s for transmission to Manchester. This > thing scanned the tapes and attempted to locate as many mispunchings as > possible. Summer 1966 > > * PDP-9 Inktronic printer driver .... the dreaded Inktronics > > * PDP-9 Editor > > * PDP-9 bootstrap tape .... booted both manufacturers OS and Hamish D's > Imp System. 10 instructions long (1" of tape!) so it could be taped in a > loop and left in the reader. > > * Text Layout program .... used for 2 years by ERCC. > > * PDP-9 "interpreter" .... checked student programs dynamically. Checked > each instruction before allowing it to be executed. Prevented beginning > assembler coders wasting time trying to find faults. Could check only part > of a program so was of practical value quite apart from helping students. > > * Mouses Operating System with Peter Robertson. > Used heavily at Moray House (_M_oray '_ouse_ _s_ystem !) and by CS undergraduates > I still have the complete source of this on a 1600 bpi 1/2" tape which may > or may not still be readable. > (c) Just been talking with Peter Robertson. We're both happy for > the source of the whole Mouses system, compilers and other support > software to be made available. Depends on that 1600 bpi tape I have > still being readable though. > * Yet another assembly code version of ECCE for Perkin-Elmer 32-bit mini. > I infiltrated Newcastle University's purity in 1972 or so by porting the > ERCC Imp and Fortran compilers to MTS. The professional support people > there, staunch handcoders to a man, were completely gobsmacked at the code > IMP could generate. Their view of high level languages was utterly > conditioned by things like AlgolW and PL360. > Incidentally, the *original* ECCE was written by Alan Freeman for the PDP-8 > in around 1964. I think he's a financial analyst in London now ... at > least I saw someone called Alan Freeman on a financial talk show on the box > who was his spitting image. > (b) Alan Freeman or a PhD called Brian Read .... I think Alan.... was > responsible for a PDP-8 game .... ca. 1965. > Push buttons, a CRT display and a loudspeaker. Two highly stylized > tanks drawn on the CRT. You chase the other tank and fire your gun at > it with much bleeping from the loudspeaker. All 2D and crude by today's > standards .... but must have been one of the early examples of such a > thing? (I remember playing this - GT. I think it predated arcade games like asteroids. The tanks were in a very similar vein to Asteroids but it was a much simpler game. Two player, however!) > I have a fair pile of the original departmental reports. Unfortunately > about half were chucked only 6 months ago so those left tend to reflect my > particular soft spots. > (d) An outfit called the English Language Research Unit was (I think) > merged into the newly formed Computer Science Dept. bringing Hamish Dewar > and Paul Bratley. ELRU had produced a program which could produce > all the parses of ambiguous English sentences more or less in real > time. Consider "He rolled up the red carpet"! > The interesting thing about this was that it had a fixed dictionary > of only about 600 words .... no content words. I don't know where > Paul Bratley ended up. > (e) David Rees was a PhD student at about this time. He designed a string > handling language called Astra and wrote a compiler for it. These were > in essence the string handling extensions to Atlas Autocode which were > subsequently incorporated into IMP. > He may also be able to fill in details of what Paul Bratley did. I've asked DJR about Astra. > EMAS had substantial performance advantages over standard ICL operating > systems running on the same hardware. It in fact ran ICL programs on a VME > emulator faster than the real VME. I still wonder whether the "Director" > based scheduling strategy and mapped filesystem was in fact more effective > than the strategies used in currrent day multi-programming systems. > > IMP in its day was practically unique in being a language with substantial > diagnostic assistance which could also be used "in anger" as a fast > economical systems language. Subsequently Ada is perhaps the only > mainstream language of which this can be said? > > The "3rd pass" - consolidation phase - of the Peter Robertson compilers was > again in its day unique. I remember being told at Cebit about 8 years > later by a very proud compiler writer that they'd dreamed up this wonderful > way of fixing short jumps -- which featured heavily in their > advertising. Peter's compilers did far more long before and the Mouses > 32-bit Perkin-Elmer variant did a whole lot more again. > > Prof Wulf's "Optimising Compiler" book contains a PDP-11 coding sequence > for Ackermann, generated by his compiler, which he asserts was optimal > because he himself could not handcode it more tightly. Unfortunately > Peter's PDP-11 IMP compiler takes 2 instructions off the "optimal" code > displayed in the book. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980657334/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-17-980807989-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Jan 29 16:06:46 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA03314 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:06:41 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-17-980807989-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jan 2001 22:39:49 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 29 Jan 2001 22:39:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 31918 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2001 22:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 29 Jan 2001 22:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Jan 2001 23:22:09 -0000 Received: from cableinet.co.uk ([194.117.136.78]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:22:37 +0000 Message-ID: <3A75EDDB.8DC8B8E1@cableinet.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com References: <200101280359.VAA07748@admin.vt.com> From: Gordon Hughes MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:25:31 +0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] More GDMR info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Everyone, > Also who in the area can physically read old tapes. Of any description. I can read half inch VMS tapes at 800/1600/3200/6250 bpi. I also have the TAPEANAL command which is useful for non-VMS tapes. best regards J. Gordon Hughes jgh@cableinet.co.uk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980807989/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-18-980827861-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Jan 29 21:38:49 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA13682 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:38:47 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-18-980827861-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2001 04:11:58 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 30 Jan 2001 04:11:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 98360 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2001 03:57:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Jan 2001 03:57:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jan 2001 03:57:48 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA13185 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:24:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101300324.VAA13185@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:24:33 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Tape formats Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I can read half inch VMS tapes at 800/1600/3200/6250 bpi. > I also have the TAPEANAL command which is useful for non-VMS tapes. > > best regards > > J. Gordon Hughes > jgh@cableinet.co.uk That's great news from Gordon; I think the chances of us taking him up on that offer are quite high :-) My own memory of tapes is from Unix, and I think what I remember is that they had very little structure at all; generally Unix tapes are a straight dump of a tar file to tape with cpio or dd. So if Gordon can physically read any tapes and just get the raw bytes in a file, I'm very confident we can strip any ISO headers etc off by hand in the worst case and recover the internal data. Actually I had forgotten this, but it's coming back to me now: I wrote lots of tape handling utilities when I was working at Acorn. I believe I kept sources. Guess what - they're on a 6250bpi tape :-) Oh dear, little bootstrap problem there :-) The only trickiness I remember was something about writing 'tape marks' which I think were 0-length blocks, and something about end of tape (or maybe end of dataset?) being denoted by a double tapemark. I seem to remember it was sometimes difficult to read past a double tape mark and make sure you got every dataset on the tape and not just the first one. I wonder what other kinds of tapes we'll find... Those tapes seemed huge at the time. I just looked them up on the net and they were in fact only 180Mb. We could store 450 of these tapes on a single 80Gb disk costing $300. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980827862/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-19-980828642-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Jan 29 21:50:54 2001 Received: from hi.egroups.com (hi.egroups.com [208.50.99.211]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA14068 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:50:51 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-19-980828642-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Jan 2001 04:24:03 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 30 Jan 2001 04:24:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 97138 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2001 04:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Jan 2001 04:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jan 2001 04:13:06 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA13707 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:39:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101300339.VAA13707@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:39:51 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] JHB's resources Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO John Butler thinks he can get an APM to run, and thinks that Rainer may have an exabyte with the last source dump. JHB also has an RL01 with Brian Gilmore's DEIMOS operating system (and his MSc dissertation). I'd like to ask JHB to contact Brian for us to get a release. Maybe also he'd be a good person to ask about the lost EMAS source checkpoint, and maybe even the old ERCC backup tapes. Would anyone who sees Rainer today mind pointing him at the web site please? He says he knows where to track down a working PDP11 with an 8" floppy and an RK05/RL01 drive in case we need to read those. And he has a paper tape reader and a new 5.25" PC floppy drive so we can still read 5.25" disks etc. in a PC. (There are some programs around to copy complete disk images, if we hit any old formats we can't easily decode, such as p-machine floppies). We can always recover the data from the raw images later. Contact me if you can't find such a program and need one, I have it somewhere on one of my PCs. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/980828642/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-20-981085549-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Feb 1 21:12:39 2001 Received: from jj.egroups.com (jj.egroups.com [208.50.144.82]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA14923 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:12:34 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-20-981085549-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2001 03:45:50 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 03:45:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 39541 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 03:45:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 03:45:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 04:46:53 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA14908; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:12:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102020312.VAA14908@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:12:23 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Great news! Donald Michie is helping us! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I pass the following letter on with permission. It has been lightly edited to remove some irrelevant remarks. We are VERY lucky to have Donald Michie as a contributor. I'm giving serious thought to flying over to Scotland in July myself to help examine and scan/OCR his archive! He doesn't explicitly mention having any old source code, but even if there's no code, we really must transfer as much of this history to online media as we can. I'll ask him if he has anything in electronic form. I don't personally know much about the MIRU; I remember Rae R giving me a tour and showing me some of the early Computer Chess work. I'm looking forward to learning some of this history myself. Graham > Dear Graham Toal > > I have an archive brimming with documentation > of every kind covering the early days, -- technical > reports, minutes of the weekly staff meetings in the > EPU and DMI, correspondence galore with University > Admin and Court, with international AI scientists, > with visitors and Machine Intelligence Workshop > contributors, with editors, authors, other Departments > of the University at that time, proposals, manifestos > and goodness knows what else. > > There is in addition a complete History of the > Machine Intelligence Research Unit written by > my wife, then a member of the said MIRU. The > special point of interest is that it documents > an organization that had a ten-year run, from > 1974 - 1984. But its existence and history > remains I believe almost entirely unknown. This > is because a usual account of events is that after > the departure from Edinburgh of Professors Richard > Gregory (who left in 1970) and Christopher Longuet- > Higgins (around 1974) I also departed, to Glasgow > to found the Turing Institute, at the same time > that the Department of Artificial Intelligence was > being set up in Edinburgh. In actuality I did not > leave for Glasgow and set up the TI until 1984. > > The dramatic collapse of funding following the > Lighthill report temporarily stranded a community > of several dozen AI research workers. The > University had to set up new structures and a > new mission for as many as could be retained > in Edinburgh. > > The DAI was the main result. In the process > each person was asked whether he or she would > accept assignment to undergraduate teaching. > Uniquely, my University post was a so-called > Personal Chair. In those days such appointments > carried no teaching obligation. Never having > done any teaching in my life, I opted out. I > also had private doubts about whether the field > had yet sufficiently matured to support > undergraduate courses*. > > The University accordingly set up two Departments, > of which the DAI was one. The other, named the > Machine Intelligence Research Unit, consisted of > myself, my secretary, and 1/11th of the time of > Dr Horace Townsend, of the medical faculty. We > were allotted space for four postgraduate > students. One or two self-funded workers also > attached themselves, including Jean Hayes who > ten years later wrote the History, and there > was also a constant stream of visiting workers > from overseas. So although from the outside > the MIRU was almost invisible, it had a vigorous > internal life and a steady and varied output. > It was quite unbelievably crowded and chronically > broke. But in its peculiar way the MIRU was fun. > > My boxes of documents are of course overkill > from your point of view. I am sure you will only > want to retain or copy a few fragments. At the > same time it seems pointless to try to offer > anything from here in Australia. > > It will be best, I think to wait until I get > back, unfortunately not until July 1st. I will > be delighted then to get access to my files > and give you the run of them. > > For the Computer Science Dept history, Peter > Schofield's memory should stretch back to the > beginning. He also contributed an excellent > paper to one of the first two Machine Intelligence > volumes. > > Best wishes > > Donald Michie > > > *My doubts were soon refuted by the newly- > formed DAI's publication of the world's > first-ever AI textbook. Written by Alan Bundy, > Rod Burstall and Pat Ambler this set a standard > that no subsequent text that I have seen has > come near. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981085549/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-21-981090588-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Thu Feb 1 22:36:29 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA16794 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:36:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-21-981090588-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2001 05:09:49 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 05:09:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 82708 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 05:09:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 05:09:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 05:09:47 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA16789 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:36:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102020436.WAA16789@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:36:22 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Early AI Research Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I mailed Robin Popplestone at umass and got this response: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:06:55 -0500 (EST) From: Robin Popplestone To: gtoal@gtoal.com Subject: This is a recording... [Re: Edinburgh History] This is an autoresponder. I will not be reading my e-mail for the entire summer. Your message will be read when I return. -- Robin Popplestone Given that it's currently snowing in Mass, I suspect that message is *long* out of date. Does anyone know where he might be nowadays that he actually gets mail? Also I'ld like to track down Pat Ambler who was my tutor for AI2. I mailed Ilona Bellos too but didn't get a reply; I suspect an out of date email address. I found this page with a good recap of the early people from AI: -------- Sat Jun 7 17:54:25 BST 1997 Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.ai.philosophy References: <5l792s$6to@news.ox.ac.uk> <5md82c$al12@dionysus.netmatters.co.uk> From: AaronSloman@cs.bham.ac.nospam (Aaron Sloman See text for reply address) Subject: Re: AI and Deep Blue (Historical correction) [Correct email address is at the end] a.croxton@netmatters.co.uk (al c) makes a historical mistake, which I guess I should correct in case others believe it: > Date: 26 May 1997 23:58:04 GMT > Organization: ABCDevelopment > > Aaron Sloman (founding father of British AI) wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Correction: by the time I started learning about AI, it was already well established in Britain. I started learning about AI in 1969 when I met Max Clowes at Sussex University. He was the person who persuaded me that the best way to address most philosophical questions was to explore issues concerned with designing working minds, human-like and others. Max was one of the leading UK AI vision researchers before I had even heard about AI. (He died around 1980 unfortunately). I also learnt a huge amount when I spent a year (1972-3) at Edinburgh University, where there were already a lot of well established AI researchers, including Donald Michie (probably the the person with the best claim to be the UK's founding father of AI) Rod Burstall Christopher Longet-Higgins He led the epistemics group Steve Isard Julian Davies Bernard Meltzer He led the computational logic group Pat Hayes (moved to a lectureship at Essex just as I arrived) Steve Salter designer of Freddy the robot's mechanics Robin Popplestone Pat Ambler Harry Barrow Bob Kowalski PhD students included Geoff Hinton, Alan Bundy, David Warren, and several others (including several people from the USA who thought the Edinburgh AI group was well worth visiting: e.g. Americans there included Danny Bobrow, J Moore, Bob Boyer, Chris Brown, Frank Brown, and others.). All of those listed above have a better claim than I have to be called founders of AI in the UK. A lot of very good work had been done by then (1973) in Edinburgh (including some interesting robotics work which is now totally ignored by some roboticists of the 1990s who tend to think they invented it all, and who have no idea how difficult it was to do AI with the computers available then, which took several minutes to find the outline of a teacup in a digitised image, ruling out any possibility of "online" control of action. The idea that there can be important trade-offs between software complexity and physical design was well understood, at least in some contexts: of course the label "situated" had not become fashionable yet). ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981090588/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-22-981103706-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Feb 2 02:15:14 2001 Received: from jk.egroups.com (jk.egroups.com [208.50.144.83]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA14768 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 02:15:14 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-22-981103706-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Feb 2001 08:48:27 -0000 X-Sender: gordon@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 08:48:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 62175 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 08:48:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 08:48:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.216.15) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 08:48:25 -0000 Received: from tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (root@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk [129.215.58.36]) by muck.dcs.ed.ac.uk with ESMTP id IAA09939 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:48:24 GMT Received: (from gordon@localhost) by tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA10966; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:48:23 GMT Message-ID: <14970.29783.742034.276615@tuckernuck.dcs.ed.ac.uk> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200102020436.WAA16789@admin.vt.com> References: <200102020436.WAA16789@admin.vt.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid From: Gordon Brebner MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:48:23 +0000 (GMT) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Early AI Research Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > I mailed Robin Popplestone at umass and got this response: > > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:06:55 -0500 (EST) > From: Robin Popplestone > To: gtoal@gtoal.com > Subject: This is a recording... [Re: Edinburgh History] > > This is an autoresponder. > > I will not be reading my e-mail for the entire summer. > Your message will be read when I return. > -- Robin Popplestone > > Given that it's currently snowing in Mass, I suspect that message > is *long* out of date. Does anyone know where he might be nowadays > that he actually gets mail? This one isn't too hard - he's spending a sabbatical year here in JCMB!! In fact, I remember noticing that you had him as one of the recipients on your very first mailing (robin@dcs.ed.ac.uk). Gordon. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981103707/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-23-981490103-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Tue Feb 6 13:34:53 2001 Received: from mu.egroups.com (mu.egroups.com [64.211.240.238]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03578 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:34:51 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-23-981490103-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Feb 2001 20:08:25 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 6 Feb 2001 20:08:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 72951 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2001 20:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Feb 2001 20:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Feb 2001 21:09:26 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA03570 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:34:39 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102061934.NAA03570@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:34:39 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Next task... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Well, we seem to have run out of steam in identifying old archives, so it seems like it's time to move on to the next stage of the project: fetching what we have already identified and putting it online in an archive. I am setting up a new FTP server this week and it should be online for next Monday. At that point we'll start contacting everyone who offered code and ask you to FTP it to us. Anyone whose code is not already online could usefully use this coming week to find it and put it on a net-connected machine somewhere. If you have old tapes, remember JGH may be able to read them for you. Thanks Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981490103/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-24-981513887-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Tue Feb 6 20:11:12 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA16545 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:11:11 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-24-981513887-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Feb 2001 02:44:48 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 7 Feb 2001 02:44:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 77600 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2001 02:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Feb 2001 02:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 02:44:43 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id UAA16527; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:11:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102070211.UAA16527@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:11:01 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] FTP AREA IS READY! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Thanks to my wife, who has 57Gb free on the hard drive of her Win2K PC, we now have an FTP area for uploads for the History Project. Connect to "ftp.gtoal.com" using FTP - username ftp or anonymous - no password needed, although it's polite to give your email address. cd to /uploads You will be able to see the names of files in that directory but you will not be able to fetch any files from it. (I will be manually transferring uploads from here to our web site) You will however be able to put files *to* it, and to create sub-directories under it (using the mkdir command). I chose to set it up this way so that if the info about the site's existence spreads past our little trustworthy group, it won't be abused by warez pirates or mp3 hounds - people who like to upload to public ftp sites then tell their friends where they can go to download stuff from. This is an upload-only site - no downloads. so if anyone does upload any junk, it'll be a nice present for me, but not for the friends that they intended it for :-) Please start sending your goodies. If you want to create subdirectories under your name to keep things organised, you're welcome to. Or you can create subdirectories with appropriate names like 'compilers' or whatever - it's entirely open for you. It would be very helpful if you also mailed to thelist (or me directly) with a description or just a list of what you uploaded. Uploads should be relatively fast; I have a 1.1Mb SDSL to my ISP, who has a T1 to the net. The T1 may be loaded to some extent during the US peak times but probably it will be very fast during the periods that most UK people are free to do this sort of stuff. I don't forsee net bandwidth being a limiting factor. Thank you everyone for contributing! Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/_/_/981513887/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com From sentto-2719433-25-985131292-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Tue Mar 20 16:58:58 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22823 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:58:56 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-25-985131292-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Mar 2001 23:34:52 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 20 Mar 2001 23:34:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 34933 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2001 23:34:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Mar 2001 23:34:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO f19.egroups.com) (10.1.2.136) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Mar 2001 23:34:50 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.106] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Mar 2001 23:34:50 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <998peo+oo1q@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.104.172.1 From: "Graham Toal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:34:48 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Kicking this project back into life... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello folks. Just over a month back I had some personal stuff to take care of, and I didn't have time to ride herd on this project group. Actually I was rather hoping that if I was quiet for a few days, someone in the Edinburgh area would step in and do some organising in my absence. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way, and then I had an illness, followed by my DSL line (and therefore our web and ftp servers) also being sick for a couple of weeks. All that is taken care of now, and I'm back at the wheel. Fotunately this is a project that doesn't have too heavy time constraints, as long as no-one trashes anything that we'd identified as wanting to keep. We can afford quiet periods, but on the other hand I think it is important to keep a momentum going, lest any outsiders we ask for help get the impression that we're not taking it seriously. Incidentally, Ian, although not free at the moment, is hoping to have some leisure time in a month or so and I'll be twisting his arm as much as he'll let me to involve him in some ground work in Edinburgh. We did pretty well in the first few weeks when this project started, in identifying some of the old work that we'd like to preserve. I'ld like us to spend the next 3-4 weeks doing something concrete and actually getting some of the files online at our ftp server (ftp.gtoal.com). To this end (rather than put anyone on the spot by posting here) I intend to drop a few private mails to various of the people who offered to help, over the next week, suggesting some specific tasks that they might do. This next month's target is to get enough of a start and items online that our web site looks serious; I'm hoping that this will kick-start donations to the site which should then continue to roll in at a constant rate. If anyone needs help, and it is something I'm able to help with, you may ask me for help at any time. There is quite a lot I can do that isn't constrained by the fact that I'm 3000 miles from Edinburgh. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/n4HqaC/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/BE_UlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-26-996275443-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Fri Jul 27 18:08:26 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29632 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:08:25 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-26-996275443-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2001 23:10:43 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 90079 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.45) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.111] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2001 23:10:42 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9jssdg+ng2l@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <998peo+oo1q@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 From: "Graham Toal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:10:40 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Kicking this project back into life... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO This is a content-free posting because Yahoo is about to delete the group because of 90 days inactivity :-( So I need to post something to keep it alive. G ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-27-998300511-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 04:38:11 2001 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.65]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09600 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 04:38:11 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-27-998300511-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 09:41:51 -0000 X-Sender: margo.hutchison@strath.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 09:41:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 30549 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 09:41:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 09:41:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.52) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 09:41:48 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: margo.hutchison@strath.ac.uk Received: from [10.1.10.63] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 09:41:48 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 130.159.248.44 From: margo.hutchison@strath.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:41:43 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello, I'm just passing through - I stumbled across your group while searching for something else, and and found your archives fascinating. Just wanted to post a message of encouragement (and it keeps Yahoo off oyur backs for a bit!) As a Cobol programmer on ICL VME machines I used a version of ECCE for about 12 years (1986-98?) at SSEB/ScottishPower before it was phased out in favour of something universal but inferior, so it's great to hear that you guys are trying to preserve the original. I wonder if it was a commercial success? Margo To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-28-998300948-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 04:45:25 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09791 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 04:45:25 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-28-998300948-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 09:49:08 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 09:49:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 23781 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 09:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 09:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 09:49:07 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-72-238-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.72.238] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15Ylg1-0001xs-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:48:58 -0400 Message-ID: <001801c1295d$5771aed0$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:48:48 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Margo Welcome to the group - I just joined recently when I discovered that I've been dancing at ceilidhs with Hamish Dewar for years and didn't realise it was the same Hamish that was at the CS Dept back in the 80s! >> ...used a version of ECCE for about 12 years (1986-98?) << Wow, I'm surprised and impressed that it lasted until 98! I wonder if there's a version for PCs? I remember when Hamish wrote VECCE and I found it a bit strange at first to have the ability to move the cursor around the text and edit it in place! Mike Scott http://mikescommunity.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-29-998304343-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 05:42:04 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA11228 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:42:04 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-29-998304343-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 10:45:44 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 10:45:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 73684 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 10:45:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 10:45:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 10:45:29 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7KAjRx26400 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:45:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from [128.240.2.185] (knott10.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.2.185]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05093 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:45:24 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 3.4 (cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:42:56 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >I'm just passing through - I stumbled across your group while >searching for something else, and and found your archives fascinating. >Just wanted to post a message of encouragement (and it keeps Yahoo off >oyur backs for a bit!) As a Cobol programmer on ICL VME machines I >used a version of ECCE for about 12 years (1986-98?) at >SSEB/ScottishPower before it was phased out in favour of something >universal but inferior, so it's great to hear that you guys are trying >to preserve the original. I wonder if it was a commercial success? There have been dozens of versions of ecce over the years. I have most recently made versions for the Macintosh, both as a native application and as an extension to run within BBEdit (my favourite editor on the Mac). The version that I run on Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.7 Generic October 1998 is based on Pascal source. You will find the source and manual page in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.pas http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.doc The calling shell-script and SunOS 5.7 binary are in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/bin/ecce http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/bin/ecce1 Any use of the above source or object is (of course) entirely at your own risk. I also have C++ source for the Macintosh and for Unix/Linux. These are all based on versions of ecce that date from the mid to late sixties. (From the man page): H. Whitfield, Computing Laboratory, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU. This editor is based upon older versions by H. Dewar and others of the Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh. The original version was probably written in IMP (a development from Atlas Autocode). Over the years I (and many others) have produced versions coded in various programming languages including Algol 60, Fortran, Pascal, C/C++ etc. One advantage of ecce was that it was easy to port to a new machine, and could often be got to work first time, so that one did not need to learn a new editor. Over the years, people at Edinburgh made other versions, including versions that worked on VDUs and provided a multi-line display format. I don't know whether any of those versions still exist. I have made versions for my own use on Unix and the Macintosh. As ecce does not have a modern GUI, I tend to use it (on the Mac) within BBEdit rather than as a stand-alone application. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-30-998304817-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 05:49:55 2001 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA11445 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:49:54 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-30-998304817-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 87247 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 10:53:37 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-72-238-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.72.238] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15YmgR-0003JJ-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:53:27 -0400 Message-ID: <003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:53:16 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Harry Thanks for the info re ecce, especially the location of source code which I'll go grab right now! Do you have any ideas about vecce source? I'll try asking Hamish Dewar and see if he still has it, though it will be in IMP. Mike Scott http://mikescommunity.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-31-998305888-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 06:07:45 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.52]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA11931 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:07:45 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-31-998305888-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 11:11:29 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 11:11:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 20738 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 11:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 11:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 11:11:27 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7KBBQx01333 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:11:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from [128.240.2.185] (knott10.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.2.185]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14889 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:11:25 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> <003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 3.4 (cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:11:19 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO >Thanks for the info re ecce, especially the location of source code which >I'll go grab right now! Do you have any ideas about vecce source? I'll try >asking Hamish Dewar and see if he still has it, though it will be in IMP. Sorry - I think that all my efforts are based on pre-1972 versions of ecce. I'll put my C++ source on my web site in next few days, as that may be of more use to some people than the Pascal source. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-32-998306265-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 06:14:02 2001 Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.54]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA12109 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 06:14:01 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-32-998306265-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 11:17:45 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 11:17:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 35191 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 11:17:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 11:17:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 11:17:44 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-72-238-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.72.238] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15Yn3m-0003sa-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:17:34 -0400 Message-ID: <004b01c12969$b88c4570$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com><003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:17:25 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Harry >> I'll put my C++ source on my web site in next few days, as that may be of more use to some people than the Pascal source. << Thanks for that. However, since I was a student in the Pascal days, I'm now a consultant specialising in Delphi which uses Pascal so the source I just grabbed will do nicely! If I get time I'll try to do a PC/Windows version and I'll email the source for that back to you if you like. Cheers. Mike Scott http://mikescommunity.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-33-998311810-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 07:46:26 2001 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.59]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA14692 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:46:26 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-33-998311810-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 12:50:10 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 12:50:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 9076 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.229.35) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f7KCo3I21029 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:50:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from [128.240.2.185] (knott11.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.2.186]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14948 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:50:01 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004b01c12969$b88c4570$0200a8c0@gonzales> References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com><003d01c12 966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> <004b01c12969$b88c4570$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-Filter-Version: 3.4 (cheviot2.ncl.ac.uk) From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:49:15 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Mike (et al), > >> I'll put my C++ source on my web site in next few days, as that may be of >more use to some people than the Pascal source. << I've revised my ecce page: http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.html I've also linked my Linux and Macintosh C++ source. >Thanks for that. However, since I was a student in the Pascal days, I'm now >a consultant specialising in Delphi which uses Pascal so the source I just >grabbed will do nicely! > >If I get time I'll try to do a PC/Windows version and I'll email the source >for that back to you if you like. I'd be pleased to see that and to have a .exe file. Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-34-998318061-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 09:30:41 2001 Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.57]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA18789 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:30:40 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-34-998318061-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:34:21 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 14:34:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 38421 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 14:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 14:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.219) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 14:32:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.106] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:32:56 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9lr72k+2roq@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 From: "Graham Toal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:32:52 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., Harry Whitfield wrote: > The version that I run on > > Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.7 Generic October 1998 > > is based on Pascal source. > > You will find the source and manual page in > > http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.p as Just for grins, here's my C version: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce.c Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-35-998318786-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 09:42:42 2001 Received: from n26.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.76]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19275 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:42:42 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-35-998318786-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:46:26 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 14:46:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 64483 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 14:45:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 14:45:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.55) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 14:45:05 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.120] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:44:45 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9lr7os+lsil@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <003d01c12966$59ee5880$0200a8c0@gonzales> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 From: "Graham Toal" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:44:44 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., wrote: > Hi Harry > > Thanks for the info re ecce, especially the location of source code which > I'll go grab right now! Do you have any ideas about vecce source? I'll try > asking Hamish Dewar and see if he still has it, though it will be in IMP. I have the EMAS source of Vecce I think. I had about 1500 BBC Micro floppies which I uploaded to my PC over the last 6 months and I'm fairly sure I remember spotting Vecce among them (also compare). It may take me some time to find it again (I have 1500 directories named disk0001 through disk1500 approximately!) as I don't have an indexer like Alta Vista running on my PC at the moment, but I'll find it eventually. (And PC's aren't as easy just to kick off a large recursive grep, as Unix is :-( ) I guess the archive is finally going to have some content! Great! I'll start organising it and linking to the web page. Graham To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-36-998322108-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 10:38:04 2001 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.75]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21459 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:38:03 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-36-998322108-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 15:41:48 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 15:41:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 41361 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 15:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 15:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 15:41:23 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-72-238-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.72.238] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15YrAu-0003zE-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:41:12 -0400 Message-ID: <008001c1298e$8d2c2560$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <9lr7os+lsil@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:40:44 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Graham >> It may take me some time to find it again (I have 1500 directories named disk0001 through disk1500 approximately!) as I don't have an indexer like Alta Vista running on my PC at the moment, but I'll find it eventually. (And PC's aren't as easy just to kick off a large recursive grep, as Unix is :-( ) << It's only easy on *nix if you know the command. DOS is no different: dir vec*.* /s to do a recursive file search grep is more of a problem. I had an old DOS grep years ago but I don't know where that is. However, you could try these sites: http://oakroadsystems.com/sharware/grep.htm for a shareware DOS version. http://www.albedo.net/~arvic/fw-dos.html for a freeware version Mike Scott http://mikescommunity.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-37-998342432-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 16:17:44 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10202 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:17:43 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-37-998342432-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 21:20:32 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 21:20:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 91777 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 21:19:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 21:19:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 21:19:32 -0000 Received: from jgh2 ([62.31.70.200]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:19:40 +0100 Message-ID: <007b01c129be$717e1d20$c8461f3e@jgh2> To: References: <9lqm0n+pogp@eGroups.com> <001801c1295d$5771aed0$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:24:06 +0100 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Everyone, > >> ...used a version of ECCE for about 12 years (1986-98?) << > > Wow, I'm surprised and impressed that it lasted until 98! I wonder if > there's a version for PCs? I remember when Hamish wrote VECCE and I found it > a bit strange at first to have the ability to move the cursor around the > text and edit it in place! That's nothing, I still use VECCE on a daily basis (VMS), and even ECCE too sometimes (Solaris)! (I did once have a PC version, but really prefer EMACS to ECCE for most PC editing.) Here is a question when might appeal to the group - I am writing a paper on my companies Automation techniques for the USA, and I was going to mention the programming language used - Imp! What do people think is the best reference to give for it? My thoughts are to use Peter Robertson's EUCSD report from 1979. There was also a Lattice Logic edition of the same document from the early 1980s, but I think the University one is probably the better reference. Any other ideas? I think using a later reference is better than any of the EMAP projects from the late 60's early 70's! best regards Gordon Hughes %end %of %file [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-38-998343373-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Mon Aug 20 16:33:25 2001 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10736 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:33:25 -0500 (CDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-38-998343373-gtoal=vt.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 21:36:13 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 21:36:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 33332 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 21:36:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 21:36:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 21:36:05 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA10674 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:31:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200108202131.QAA10674@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:31:48 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Keep up the good work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > Automation techniques for the USA, and I was going to mention the programming language > used - Imp! What do people think is the best reference to give for it? > > My thoughts are to use Peter Robertson's EUCSD report from 1979. There was also a Lattice > Logic edition of the same document from the early 1980s, but I think the University one is > probably the better reference. Any other ideas? I think using a later reference is better than > any of the EMAP projects from the late 60's early 70's! The big question is, are any of them actually available to someone who wanted to follow up the reference? I think I have the 3L version somewhere, and I know I have Robertson's thesis. As of course must he, and he does read this list I think, so maybe he can put either one on the web? I'ld be happy to scan either to a pdf with his permission, though I have to say that would take me several weeks. Graham PS ftp.gtoal.com is still available for uploads, Gordon. [Hint, hint!] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-39-1007010764-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Nov 28 23:10:31 2001 Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.57]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA17890 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:10:30 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-39-1007010764-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n7.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2001 05:12:45 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 29 Nov 2001 05:12:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 17819 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 05:12:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2001 05:12:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.56) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2001 05:12:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.95] by n6.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2001 05:12:43 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9u4g4c+n7ff@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 X-eGroups-Announce: yes From: "Graham Toal" X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:12:44 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] This isn't working, is it? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello again folks, I'm prompted to write because I've just finished reading "The Difference Engine" by Doron Swade; a fairly readable and unbiased history of Charles Babbage; followed by the story of the restoration of the Difference Engine done by the Science Museum. I recommend it as a good but slightly depressing read. (Depressing in the sense of it is clear that even 150 years ago Babbage's project was doomed by being run in that peculiarly British academic style; if he had been managed and taken to America I'm convinced we'd be 50 years further down the Moore's Law curve by now) The good thing about the book however is no matter how many failures it catalogs, its one success story is the restoration project, which despite many setbacks (mostly managerial/ staffing/financial), did succeed in the end. It is clear to me that *our* project is not going anywhere. If I were in Scotland I would be running around making a nuisance of myself and getting disks and tapes off everyone, but that just doesn't work remotely and no-one in Scotland appears willing to do legwork. I'm thinking that perhaps the self-motivated amateur effort is not the best way to carry out this project. The Difference Engine project was able to raise over quarter of a million to get one piece of equipment restored. Perhaps we should be looking at getting funding for this project, creating a post of historian, and tackling it seriously? I throw out this suggestion to the list, but really it's really directed to Gordon Brebner as I think he's the only person capable of finding finding and creating such a post. I'm thinking something like $75 - $100K would fund staff and hardware. Given the University's history with ICL and ICL's close connection with one of our biggest projects, EMAS, perhaps ICL would be the sensible company to approach first. They co-funded the Babbage project most enthusiatically, according to the book, and this project would be much closer to home for them. However if any of our members know any industry moguls with a nostalgic streak for Edinburgh, don't be reticent to float a trial balloon in their direction. The Science Museum's Difference Engine project is something that has to be seen in person -- the online description is pitiful (http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/collections/exhiblets/babbage/start.a sp) and really only makes sense after you buy the book written by the person who happens to be Assistant Director of the Science Museum. The web pages in fact seem to be a tiny precis extracted from the book - and they don't include *any* of the juicy details you really want to know such as Babbage's "Mechanical Notation" Our project would be a permanent online exhibit, done professionally. I would give serious thought to taking a sabattical from my employment in Texas to go do this thing if no-one else would, if it were funded properly. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/gwUrIA/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-40-1007011145-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Nov 28 23:16:49 2001 Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.73]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA18185 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:16:49 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-40-1007011145-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2001 05:19:07 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 29 Nov 2001 05:19:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 38365 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 05:19:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2001 05:19:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.64) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2001 05:19:06 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: gtoal@vt.com Received: from [10.1.10.66] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2001 05:20:21 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9u4gg9+t8i2@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.1 X-eGroups-Announce: yes From: "Graham Toal" X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:19:05 -0000 Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ed-comp-hist] This isn't working, is it? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello again folks, I'm prompted to write because I've just finished reading "The Difference Engine" by Doron Swade; a fairly readable and unbiased history of Charles Babbage; followed by the story of the restoration of the Difference Engine done by the Science Museum. I recommend it as a good but slightly depressing read. (Depressing in the sense of it is clear that even 150 years ago Babbage's project was doomed by being run in that peculiarly British academic style; if he had been managed and taken to America I'm convinced we'd be 50 years further down the Moore's Law curve by now) The good thing about the book however is no matter how many failures it catalogs, its one success story is the restoration project, which despite many setbacks (mostly managerial/ staffing/financial), did succeed in the end. It is clear to me that *our* project is not going anywhere. If I were in Scotland I would be running around making a nuisance of myself and getting disks and tapes off everyone, but that just doesn't work remotely and no-one in Scotland appears willing to do legwork. I'm thinking that perhaps the self-motivated amateur effort is not the best way to carry out this project. The Difference Engine project was able to raise over quarter of a million to get one piece of equipment restored. Perhaps we should be looking at getting funding for this project, creating a post of historian, and tackling it seriously? I throw out this suggestion to the list, but really it's really directed to Gordon Brebner as I think he's the only person capable of finding finding and creating such a post. I'm thinking something like $75 - $100K would fund staff and hardware. Given the University's history with ICL and ICL's close connection with one of our biggest projects, EMAS, perhaps ICL would be the sensible company to approach first. They co-funded the Babbage project most enthusiatically, according to the book, and this project would be much closer to home for them. However if any of our members know any industry moguls with a nostalgic streak for Edinburgh, don't be reticent to float a trial balloon in their direction. The Science Museum's Difference Engine project is something that has to be seen in person -- the online description is pitiful (http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/collections/exhiblets/babbage/start.a sp) and really only makes sense after you buy the book written by the person who happens to be Assistant Director of the Science Museum. The web pages in fact seem to be a tiny precis extracted from the book - and they don't include *any* of the juicy details you really want to know such as Babbage's "Mechanical Notation" Our project would be a permanent online exhibit, done professionally. I would give serious thought to taking a sabattical from my employment in Texas to go do this thing if no-one else would, if it were funded properly. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/iHh8lD/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-41-1011249009-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 00:24:46 2002 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA12186 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:24:45 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-41-1011249009-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jan 2002 06:16:31 -0000 X-Sender: paulmcl@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 17 Jan 2002 06:30:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 97234 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2002 06:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Jan 2002 06:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.81) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2002 06:30:08 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.153] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jan 2002 06:30:08 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "paulmcl" X-Originating-IP: 4.63.193.71 X-Yahoo-Profile: paulmcl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:30:03 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] No code Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I'm afraid that I don't have any of the source code to Legos or the filestore (version 1, Hamish re-wrote it) that I wrote. I used to have a magnetic tape with a whole load of VMS stuff I wrote, and maybe other stuff, but in various moves it has got lost. I know it had the VMS implementation of ECCE I did, half in IMP and half in assembler. I'm pretty sure I don't have it rather than just hidden it in an unopened box. -- paul mclellan To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-42-1011730582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 14:10:38 2002 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21386 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:10:37 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-42-1011730582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.189] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jan 2002 20:16:22 -0000 X-Sender: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 22 Jan 2002 20:16:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 11579 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2002 20:16:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Jan 2002 20:16:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail12.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.215) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2002 20:16:20 -0000 Received: from modem-2946.monkey.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.219.130] helo=oemcomputer) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16T7L6-0006is-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@egroups.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:16:17 +0000 Message-ID: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 From: "Hamish Dewar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:23:52 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO It is only recently that I became aware of the existence of this project -- through Mike Scott, whom I regularly bump into at Ceilidh dances here in Edinburgh (well, I'm not as proficient a dancer as he is). My first involvement with Edinburgh University came when I joined a syntactic analysis project in the English Language department, on which Harry Whitfield and Paul Bratley also worked. I followed them into the Department of Computer Science. The project was under the aegis of Prof. Angus McIntosh, and the principal investigator was James Peter Thorne, who succeeded Angus as professor of English Language. Sadly, Jimmy died in post a number of years ago; I still miss him. He was a superb raconteur, and a great source of gossip (only slightly malicious and embroidered) about University politics and intrigue. Not a little of this, it should be said, related to the setting up and evolution of such entities as the Machine Intelligence Unit, the Departments of Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence, and the Edinburgh Regional Computing Centre. I eventually left the Department of Computer Science in 1984, to set up Clan Systems, along with Igor Hansen. It was good to read the message from Prof. Donald Michie. Donald was one of the key people responsible for putting Edinburgh on the computing map, and his annual Machine Intelligence workshops, which attracted leading figures from around the world, created a real buzz of excitement. I wonder if he is considering writing his memoirs. I am sure they would make fascinating, and controversial, reading. The unforgettable and much-loved Prof. Sidney Michaelson has been mentioned in earlier posts, but another key figure was Dr G E ('Tommy') Thomas, Director of the Edinburgh Regional Computing Centre (ERCC). Like Sidney and Donald, Tommy had vision on the grand scale, and worked tenaciously, and with considerable success, to put in place and nourish the resources to implement that vision. To return to the Edinburgh Computing History project, I find it intriguing, touching even, that anyone should be interested in re-visiting some of the old stuff created in Edinburgh. For me, the period was one of great potential and invention, but in many ways the potential was not realised.There was too much emphasis on the individual virtuoso performance, and not enough on teamwork and stability. I accept my full share of the blame for that. Leaving that aside, many of the problems which we faced in those days were due to insufficient computer resources, particularly storage. This was especially true of the early single-user systems, such as the PDP8, PDP7/9/15, Interdatas, etc. The reverse-loading technique which I used for the PDP9 IMP compiler would not have been necessary if the machine configuration had included either random-access storage or sufficient immediate memory. (If I remember correctly, early versions of the compiler produced the object-code on paper-tape which was then literally read backwards to load the program. All to fix up the forward references of course. Fanfold paper-tape was quite convenient for this). I would be quite embarassed to have my early implementations of ECCE exposed to view. By any standards of programming practice, they are appalling -- full of jumps and labels to achieve opportunistic code sharing, for example. But it did allow ECCE to be implemented, and efficiently implemented, on a number of modest hardware configurations. (On the subject of ECCE, I was interested to read Chris Whitfield's remark about the original implemention of ECCE being by Alan Freeman on the PDP8. Until now, I thought I was the begetter of ECCE, although like everything else it built on what went before. My recollection is that Alan Freeman did indeed implement a context-editor on the PDP8, but it did not have the structure and features of ECCE, such as the use of Regular Expressions for programmatic editing.) As another example of overcoming hardware deficiencies, I devised HAL (High-Level Assembler) largely because I despaired of being able to produce a compiler for machines like the ICL 7502, which had about the worst machine instruction set that I ever encountered. (Not quite the worst. I think a machine called Arcturus was worse. It had 18-bit instructions and 16-bit data words. How you were supposed to load programs was a mystery. The only other thing I remember about it was that it had a SEX instruction -- Sign EXtend, natch, what did you think). I have to wonder if there is any merit in resurrecting some of this stuff, except along the lines that George Bernard Shaw used about parents: that they should never hold themselves up to their children as an example, only as a warning. Finally, I still write the occasional IMP program, to meet an ad hoc computing requirement, such as plotting my blood pressure (rising) or the performance of my share portfolio (falling). This runs on a Clan workstation, designed by Igor Hansen, which is a sort of grandson of the APM machine (aka the Fred machine). I also use a laser printer with a Clan-designed controller, which supports a much-enhanced version of Layout, among other protocols. Warm greetings to all former students and colleagues, Hamish Dewar. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-43-1011841338-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jan 23 20:56:30 2002 Received: from n5.groups.yahoo.com (n5.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.55]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17207 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:56:29 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-43-1011841338-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.187] by n5.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 03:02:18 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 03:02:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 71932 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n34.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.84) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.134] by n34.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 03:02:10 -0000 To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "graham_toal" X-Originating-IP: 208.246.62.3 X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:02:07 -0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO --- In edinburgh-computer-history@y..., "Hamish Dewar" wrote: > It is only recently that I became aware of the existence of this project -- through Mike Scott, whom I regularly bump into at Ceilidh dances here in Edinburgh (well, I'm not as proficient a dancer as he is). Thanks Hamish, it's really good to have you on board. > To return to the Edinburgh Computing History project, I find it intriguing, touching even, that anyone should be interested in re-visiting some of the old stuff created in Edinburgh. > For me, the period was one of great potential and invention, but in many ways the potential was not realised.There was too much emphasis on the individual virtuoso performance, and not enough on teamwork and stability. I accept my full share of the blame for that. I think probably the majority of us feel the same way - we (collectively) missed a great opportunity to shape the future of computer science worldwide. But you are wrong in one respect - the problem that Edinburgh had was not one of individuals - many successful projects (most???) have been the result of one person. The problem that Edinburgh had was twofold: firstly, we did not subscribe to the American ethic of 'publish or perish'. We were quite happy to rest contented once we had cracked a difficult problem. We didn't really care if anyone else knew, in fact it went against the grain to brag; secondly, almost everyone involved in those days was an academic; there were very few entrepreneurial types, and those who were went off to do their own thing (eg Grid luggable laptops) but not the *right* thing. A good manager with the commercial drive of a Bill Gates would without any doubt in my mind have taken the Edinburgh teams and made them into something that would have had global significance. > I would be quite embarassed to have my early implementations of ECCE exposed to view. By any standards of programming practice, they are appalling -- full of jumps and labels to achieve opportunistic code sharing, for example. But it did allow ECCE to be implemented, and efficiently implemented, on a number of modest hardware configurations. Although I'm hoping that this group can salvage some of the operating systems (yours, legos, EMAS etc) programs like Ecce are still a significant part of the Edinburgh culture and the fact that there have been maybe twenty different independently-written versions confirms that - and I think it's fascinating to watch the development of Ecce from those early sources with jumps etc to some of the current ones such as those in C and Pascal. (I vaguely remember a Coral60 implementation from my days at GEC even! Although it might have been in 4000 series assembler) > I have to wonder if there is any merit in resurrecting some of this stuff, except along the lines that George Bernard Shaw used about parents: that they should never hold themselves up to their children as an example, only as a warning. Please don't think that way!!!! That is the same sort of attitude that folks had back in the days. When you're a perfectionist, you never want to release anything to the world because you think you can still do better. But if we had done so 20 to 30 years ago, we wouldn't be sitting in front of a crap OS like Windows today. All the other competing systems that were contemporary with ours - Unix, EMACS, - they were all a pigs ear inside. We had *nothing* to be ashamed of. I think it is really important that we save that old work before it is lost forever because in the future, historians will look back on it with the same awe that we look back on Babbage's difference engine, and say "you know, that really was ahead of its time". > Finally, I still write the occasional IMP program, to meet an ad hoc computing requirement, such as plotting my blood pressure (rising) or the performance of my share portfolio (falling). This runs on a Clan workstation, designed by Igor Hansen, which is a sort of grandson of the APM machine (aka the Fred machine). I also use a laser printer with a Clan-designed controller, which supports a much-enhanced version of Layout, among other protocols. This really warms the cockles of my heart. > Warm greetings to all former students and colleagues, > Hamish Dewar. Don't be a stranger! And think about any place you may have stashed your early sources, because I hope to come knocking on your door soon (electronically I mean) to filch as many of them as you'll let us, to add to the archive. By the way, I received a copy of Vecce from Keith Refson today and will be using it to officially open the archives with as the first formal exhibit this weekend. regards Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-44-1011880822-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 07:54:33 2002 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com (n9.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.59]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA02054 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:54:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-44-1011880822-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.188] by n9.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 14:00:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 90358 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 14:00:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:21 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-73-206-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.73.206] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16TkQJ-0003vk-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:00:15 -0500 Message-ID: <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:58:57 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Hamish Glad to see that you've joined the list. I kept forgetting to mention it again at the ceilidhs - too many other "distractions" - you know what I mean. >> It is only recently that I became aware of the existence of this project -- through Mike Scott, whom I regularly bump into at Ceilidh dances here in Edinburgh (well, I'm not as proficient a dancer as he is). << I note that the last time I saw you doing a Cumberland Square Eight was at the Caley about 2 years ago, when our set gradually drilled itself into the concrete and collapsed in a heap. So although we didn't bump into each other on that occasion, we did bump ourselves and our partners into the floor! So although we all cringe at things we've done, they're not ever as bad as we think - don't let that hold you back from contributing your old source code. I for one would be very interested to see it. And maybe you'll be brave enough to join in another Cumberland one day... :-) >> I eventually left the Department of Computer Science in 1984, to set up Clan Systems, along with Igor Hansen. << Reiner Thonnes and I affectionately referred to your company as "Clown Systems". I'm not sure whether that was simply because of the silly almost-rhyme, or if it was a reference to the proprietors... >> For me, the period was one of great potential and invention, but in many ways the potential was not realised... << I second Graham's sentiments on this. I was intensely frustrated with the operating systems in the early '80s. I'd had quite a deep look at Unix and its kernel and wasn't impressed. When people said how good Unix was, they were really meaning that it had a great tool set and nice scripting. But Unix under the hood is horrible. If you have a look at the Linux kernel - even the latest stable 2.4 version - the code is full of gotos and isn't elegant at all in many places. >> I would be quite embarassed to have my early implementations of ECCE exposed to view... << We don't want you to expose yourself - we do enough of that at ceilidhs, Hamish. Did you not write VECCE? I remember using it on Visual 100s or 200s attached to the CS VAX to get through to my EMAS account at 9,600 baud - the old Perkin Elmers that we poor CS1 students were supposed to use only ran at 1,200 or 2,400 baud if memory serves. It's amazing how much faster 9,600 baud seemed and also how much nicer it was to use VECCE than ECCE. Now 9,600 baud seems unbelievably sedentary! >> As another example of overcoming hardware deficiencies, I devised HAL (High-Level Assembler) << Didn't the CS2 students do a simple OS project in HAL, either on the Interdatas or on Motorola 6809 development kits? Which one was it, or was it neither? I also remember the first time I saw a mouse was this nasty red plastic thing with 3 buttons, which looked suspiciously like ones I'd seen in a Maplin catalogue, attached to a Fred machine. I remember writing some code to call Fred's graphic routines using the mouse for input and being impressed at how fast his circle fill was. I think this was about the same time as the Apple Lisa - which was the second machine I saw with a mouse. >> ...18-bit instructions and 16-bit data words... << Ouch! We may all remember these days fondly, but there were also many insanities! I'm sure that compared to this, your ECCE code can't really be that bad - everything is relative. Personally, I'd like to see your IMP compiler for the Fred machine (or its derivatives). Since you have admitted to using IMP now and again even today, you surely must have the code for the compiler. Any chance of releasing that? Also, as we discussed in the pub on Rose Street after the grab-a-granny session in Princes Street Gardens, I'd be interested in hearing more about that routing algorithm and software that you developed for PCB design. If you're too shy to talk about it here in public, maybe I can bribe you with alcohol in one of our many hostelries? :-) Mike Scott. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-45-1011880823-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 07:54:32 2002 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA02055 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:54:32 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-45-1011880823-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 14843 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 14:00:23 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-73-206-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.73.206] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16TkQK-0003vk-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:00:16 -0500 Message-ID: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:00:17 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Graham >> By the way, I received a copy of Vecce from Keith Refson today... << So who was the originator of Vecce? Mike. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-46-1011887839-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 09:51:29 2002 Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06139 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:51:28 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-46-1011887839-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.190] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 15:47:10 -0000 X-Sender: harry.whitfield@ncl.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 59107 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk) (128.240.233.15) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0000 Received: from burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.53]) by cheviot1.ncl.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g0OFudF04574 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:56:39 GMT Received: from [128.240.1.181] (black52.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.1.181]) by burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29596 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:56:35 GMT X-Sender: nhw@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> References: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com X-ECS-MailScanner: Scanned successfully From: Harry Whitfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:55:32 +0000 Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Ecce Sources and Objects Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Here follow extracts from two messages sent in July/August 2001. First message: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There have been dozens of versions of ecce over the years. I have most recently made versions for the Macintosh, both as a native application and as an extension to run within BBEdit (my favourite editor on the Mac). The version that I run on Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.7 Generic October 1998 is based on Pascal source. You will find the source and manual page in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.pas http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/ecce.doc The calling shell-script and SunOS 5.7 binary are in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/bin/ecce http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce/bin/ecce1 Source for my Macintosh C/C++ version 3.5 is in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.c Source for my C/C++ Linux version 3.3 is in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.cp There is a general manual page in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.txt There is a (Classic) Macintosh application (Version 2.01) based on Pascal source in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/ecce.sea.hqx There are (Classic) Macintosh BBEdit extensions (including Ecce) in http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/harry.whitfield/home.formal/BBXTs.sea.hqx ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Second message: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These versions are based on versions of ecce that date from the mid to late sixties. (From the man page): H. Whitfield, Computing Laboratory, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU. This editor is based upon older versions by H. Dewar and others of the Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh. The original version was probably written in IMP (a development from Atlas Autocode). Over the years I (and others) have produced versions coded in various programming languages including Algol 60, Fortran, Pascal, C/C++ etc. The main advantage of ecce was that it was easy to port to a new machine, and could often be got to work first time, so that one did not need to learn a new editor. Over the years, the people at Edinburgh made other versions, including versions that worked on VDUs and provided a multi-line display format. I don't know whether any of those versions still exist. I have made versions for my own use on Unix and the Macintosh. As ecce does not have a modern GUI, I tend to use it (on the Mac) within BBEdit rather than as a stand-alone application. In answer to your specific questions: >1. I cannot edit file1 into file2 using "ecce file1 file2" The basic ecce program compiled into ecce1 does just that! So you could say ecce1 file1 file2 The shell program in ecce wraps ecce1 up so that you can do ecce file1 to make a new file1 or edit an old file1 to produce a new file1 but keep the old version in file1.bak. You can change the shell to do whatever you like, including the execution of ecce commands on the command line as in ecce file1 file2 %s=some_commands If you are not familiar with shell programming, I'm sure your local Unix guru would be able to help. >2. I can't see how to exit without saving I don't think there is a way to do that in my version of ecce1. That is because the program works by copying the input file into an internal buffer and pushing data to the output file when the internal buffer gets full. If you edit a file which is longer than the internal buffer, the program will have written data to the output file. So you have to do %c to get a consistent state. You could make the internal buffer bigger, if you wished, but the problem could still occur. You could alter the shell to edit a copy of your file. If you used ^C to abort the operation, the original file would still be there. >3. The "^" copy/paste system isn't there, (eg. the sequence below would >copy the first 3 characters of each line to the end of the line:) >>(^r3^ r0 i@ m)0 It never has been in versions I've seen. That must have come along later. >4. There's no %h help True. That wasn't in the original version of ecce, either! However, the manual page probably tells you all you need to know. %h would be easy enough to do, but hardly worth it. >5. I used to be able to invoke ecce to run with some commands with (I >think): > >ecce file1 file2 %s=some_commands See above. Should be possible with a modified calling shell program. > Is this all down to some special version of ecce I had been using >previously, or are these sorts of things present but under different >syntax? I suspect that you have been using a later version of ecce, which has been embellished. The copy/paste would require some thought and a program change, and I've not done anything major with ecce for years, so I'd be reluctant to start on that. The other things you ask about could be achieved by having a cleverer shell calling program. That is an exercise for the reader (or your Unix guru). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Needless to say, I have no objection to these programs being copied and/or used subject to the condition that users do so entirely at their own risk. Kind regards, Harry. -- Emeritus Professor Harry Whitfield, Department of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK. http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~harry.whitfield ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-47-1011893582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 11:27:15 2002 Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09486 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:27:12 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-47-1011893582-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n33.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 17:33:02 -0000 X-Sender: jgh@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 17:33:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 56746 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 17:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 17:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.94) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 17:32:56 -0000 Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:32:55 +0000 Received: from jgh2 (unverified [80.195.42.50]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:32:55 +0000 Message-ID: <000b01c1a4fd$9ba44600$322ac350@jgh2> To: References: <000e01c1a382$d07fd8c0$82db87d9@oemcomputer> <00f901c1a4df$762b0e40$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "J Gordon Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:36:08 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Ecce Sources and Objects Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hello to all the recent new commers to the list. > Over the years, the people at Edinburgh made other versions, including > versions that worked on VDUs and provided a multi-line display format. > > I don't know whether any of those versions still exist. I still use VECCE on our VAX and Alpha VMS systems as my editor of choice, even though I am now also tri-lingual with VI and EMACS. This is the Lattice Logic dervitive which added normal VMS command line parsing to Hamish's version. I think I have the Imp source of it somewhere, although have not needed it in the last 12 years since leaving Lattice Logic! There is a lot to be said for the binary compatibility of the VMS systems from VAX to Alpha, and the Sun systems from Solaris 1 to Solaris 2! Everyone in my department at Compugraphics uses VECCE with some of the "magic spells" which I have documented to do things like tailing space deletion, or trailing CR deletion when files have been FTP'ed to us in the wrong modes. The extensions to do arithmetic on numbers are partiularly useful when editing job set up files. (And I often write Imp programs for VMS or Solaris too, which I can still do faster, and they are more efficient that my equivalent C programs!) best regards Gordon Hughes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-48-1011902309-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 13:52:37 2002 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14342 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:52:37 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-48-1011902309-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.191] by n10.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 19:58:29 -0000 X-Sender: keith.refson@ntlworld.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 19:58:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 61459 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 19:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 19:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta02-svc.ntlworld.com) (62.253.162.42) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 19:58:27 -0000 Received: from orac.15green.net ([213.105.169.109]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020124195825.LJPF8848.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@orac.15green.net> for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:58:25 +0000 Received: by orac.15green.net (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6FA802FE2A; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:07:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <15440.27008.283755.807903@orac.15green.net> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> References: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> X-Mailer: VM 7.00-rfhacked under 21.4 (patch 4) "Artificial Intelligence" XEmacs Lucid From: Keith Refson X-Yahoo-Profile: krefson MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:07:28 +0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Mike Scott writes: > Hi Graham > > >> By the way, I received a copy of Vecce from Keith Refson today... << > > So who was the originator of Vecce? I got it from Hamish Dewar, and hacked it about a bit, on both EMAS/Amdahl and Vax/VMS. I used it until the early 90s. After that I didn't have an IMP compiler so it fell out of use. Keith Refson - Dr Keith Refson, Building R3 Rutherford Appleton Laboratory Chilton Didcot Oxfordshire OX11 0QX T: 01235 446652 K.Refson@ F: 01235 445720 @rl.ac.uk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-49-1011903633-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 14:14:45 2002 Received: from n12.groups.yahoo.com (n12.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.62]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15280 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:14:44 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-49-1011903633-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 20:20:33 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 20:20:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 85437 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 20:20:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 20:20:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 20:20:31 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA15259 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:14:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201242014.OAA15259@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:14:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Re: Ecce Sources and Objects Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I've put what I have so far online temporarily at http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/ecce/ If you have any other sources of ecce not listed here, email me and I'll arrange with you to get them to me. Significantly we don't have a single IMP version of the old command-line ecce yet! I'm thinking JGH and Rainer may be the people to call on at the moment for versions of Ecce. Let's try to 'do' ecce over the next 7 days. Maybe by tackling one specific program at a time, we may make more progress than we had been doing until now. (Did anyone keep a copy of Richard Marshall's "red", which was a redesigned editor that was not Ecce, but was roughly what Ecce might have been if it were consistent in its use of parameters throughout?) NOTE: the yahoo groups server seems to have had a brain haemorrhage today and most of our old articles are lost. Since those articles were actually our memos as to what was where, I think I had better recover my copies of all of them from old mailboxes and put those on the web site too. I was fascinated to see in the Vecce archive that Hamish had rewritten his Imp syntax checker, using the parser from his 68000 version of Imp. I hadn't seen that one before but I was very familiar with the old version. [Some day after this project is much more developed, - with, we hope, significant amounts of Imp source online - that checker might be used as a basis of a student project to write an Imp to C translator?] Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-50-1011910417-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 16:07:45 2002 Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19539 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:07:45 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-50-1011910417-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n35.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jan 2002 22:13:37 -0000 X-Sender: mike@mikescommunity.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 24 Jan 2002 22:13:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 6703 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 22:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 22:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.wizardshosting.com) (64.46.100.18) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 22:13:35 -0000 Received: from pc-62-31-73-206-ed.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.73.206] helo=gonzales) by warrior.wizardshosting.com with asmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16Ts7a-0004Ji-00 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:13:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01cb01c1a524$5dac4060$0200a8c0@gonzales> To: References: <00fa01c1a4df$76eb9f20$0200a8c0@gonzales> <15440.27008.283755.807903@orac.15green.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - warrior.wizardshosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - mikescommunity.com From: "Mike Scott" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:13:17 -0000 Subject: Re: [ed-comp-hist] Re: First contact Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi Keith >> I got it [Vecce] from Hamish Dewar... I remember when it first appeared at Edinburgh, that Hamish was reputed to be the author. Hamish, could you tell us if this is true and, if so, how Vecce came about. Mike. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-51-1011918215-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 18:18:01 2002 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.80]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA24067 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:18:00 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-51-1011918215-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2002 00:23:47 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 25 Jan 2002 00:23:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 64920 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2002 23:59:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jan 2002 23:59:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2002 23:59:11 -0000 Received: (from gtoal@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA23138; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:52:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201242352.RAA23138@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Cc: hamish@hdewar.fsnet.co.uk From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:52:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Hamish: check list... Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hamish, this is what I remember of your work or at least the parts of it that I've used. I'm sure there are programs I've missed, and systems I've forgotten. Could you fill in any blanks that you can remember for us please? thanks Graham ---------- Languages: Imp for PDP9/15 68000 POP2 (written in Imp) AI2LOGO (ditto) HAL 7502 Interdata Operating systems: PDP9/15 Second version of filestore (after Paul McLellan's version) Ecce/Vecce (which systems did you do, and which did other people port to independantly that you know of?) %check (imp syntax checker in ecce. What was the stand-alone one called?) Rewrite using 68000 Imp parser Compare Do you have a date for when you first wrote this, and were you aware of unix 'diff' when you did so? Layout Paper: 'The syntactic analysis of English by machine' ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-2719433-52-1011973013-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Jan 25 09:30:58 2002 Received: from n6.groups.yahoo.com ([216.115.96.56]) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17865 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:30:58 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2719433-52-1011973013-gtoal=vt.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.165] by n6.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jan 2002 15:36:53 -0000 X-Sender: gtoal@admin.vt.com X-Apparently-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 25 Jan 2002 15:36:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 61335 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2002 15:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Jan 2002 15:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO admin.vt.com) (204.117.188.10) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2002 15:36:52 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by admin.vt.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA17856 for edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:30:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200201251530.JAA17856@admin.vt.com> To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Toal X-Yahoo-Profile: graham_toal MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com; contact edinburgh-computer-history-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:30:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ed-comp-hist] Welcome to Geoff Millard Reply-To: edinburgh-computer-history@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I spoke to Geoff Millard (by email) yesterday and he thinks he can help with documentation and sources. He's going to be out of touch for a couple of weeks, but when he returns he's looking forward to chatting to old friends he's lost touch with via this group. Graham ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/9rHolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: edinburgh-computer-history-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/